Guilliman: listen I heard your chapter is slowly falling to their gene- Seth: THEY ARE TURING US INTO ULTRAMARINES!!!!!!!!!! HE IS UNDOING OUR CULTURE!!!!!!!!!!!!
"Guilliman would turn us into Ultramarines in red armour. We will have to buy generic Space Marine packs together with a Flesh Tearers Primaris upgrade kit."
Jun Okura if don’t what break the lord the sons of Phoenix are probably actually sons of Dorn keep mind all of the third legion geniseed was lost before finding Fulgrim and since the lot of them used the big E’s Original supply and not collected stock it unlikely otherwise I’m calling bullshit
@@danishsyed1068 its a homebrew chapter of an employee that they made canon, if the creator says they come from Dorn, then that's where they cone from until said otherwise.
@@psykerwave2315 Most retarded line you mean. Seth is like a little short sighted child,he cant see farther than his own selfish desires,does he actually want to be a half mad berserker ? Dante knows that Sanguinius never wanted the Red Thirst to affect his children,but Seth thinks it is their primarchs gift to them.
@Kyros Droztamyr lol Ah so you are a " wow my opinion is so unique that must mean i am special too wow everyone else is such an idiot " kind of person mhm ? So what would you do ? The galaxy and its 23424324 Xenos races,Chaos and everyone else is destroying your ass day by day,and then comes someone who gifts you a thousand new super soldiers,tanks,new weapons,and everything else your chapter needs to survive...and you say no to that ? Even Orks would say yes to that. Besides if you really liked the Blood Angels and you would have actual knowledge about them you would know that even during the Great Crusade Sanguinius hated the red thirst and even killed some of his own soldiers who had fallen to it to keep it a secret,he never wanted his sons to suffer from it,he wanted it gone,and Seth is a retarded piece of shit for thinking its the actual heritage of their primarch,he is worshipping something Sanguinius hated. Also nice how you cant make a point without insulting someone,shows perfectly what you and Seth are,children,grow the fuck up dude.
Spot the lie. They have better control over the thirst (for now) which makes them more compliant. They don’t have the black rage (somehow). Really they’re like the Clones from SW. Say one phrase and entire chapters could be purged.
@@ubiquitouspanda4466 and yet he did not refuse those marines a place in his chapter. Anyway, Seth, the harsh but noble warrior we knew and loved, lovingly written by James Swallow, is long gone, now we have a maniac who would assault medical transports with Death Company brothers, betraying both them and the Imperium, only to cover some nasty tracks, so we can ignore anything he says and be fine with it.
Indeed, I remember reading a short story a while ago taking place during Ullanor triumph or thereabouts where Sang and Horus were having a drink and a Blood Angel came and informed Sanguinius of yet another of his was going mad - after Sanguinius send him off, Horus was really quetioning him, like "what happened" and "what did you want to tell me" and all that, and poor Sang was at a loss for words for the whole situation. Sanguinius hated the flaw - even perhaps as he saw the "benefits" it brought. What aches me more is that with the Primaris replacement, all the pain and misery of 10000 years that Blood Angels & Co. had to go about will go down unremembered and forgotten.
@@PhilipAlexanderHassialis That could be from the start of Fear to Tread or the short story that kinda went with it based in 40K that has some psychic time traveling oddites to do the the sarcophagus the BA's use
I would argue that the Rage only appeared at Sanguinius' death. Whereas the Thirst was always present. So I would argue that the Thirst is part of their heritage, not so much the Rage.
In the book Dante, doesn’t Dante himself falls into the rage? he blacked out, killed 6 civilians and recovered with help from a visit from the sanguinor…is that not the rage?
That would be truly tragic, as it would prove the Chaos Space Marines right in one regard that they were going to be tossed aside like a used tool. I really hope it doesn't come to that.
Except people are forgetting about the fact that regular astartes can be upgraded to primaris. Unlike the thunder warriors who where COMPLETELY inadequate for maintaining a galactic empire after being conquered, astartes still fit the moald like a glove.
@@Commodore22345 I do see it as tragic. Despite being made as weapons, Space Marine have demonstrated that they are fantastic architects, artists, philosophers, statesmen, engineers and many other occupations. Even if they no longer need to wage war, (which given if the Great Crusade worked and Chaos died, the Orks were still growing in strength and 10'000 years later, the Tyranids showed up. You'd need Space Marines to fight them.), they could still be made useful. Yes, they are weapons, but they are capable of so much more. I find it hard to fathom the Emperor, as harsh as he is, being so wasteful.
@@randomcenturion7264 It is true that the Astartes would have been made redundant by the end or after the Great Crusade. Idk which novel but there is a passage by Malcador between one of his confidants that there was a plan, or at least a set of plans, to cause friction between the Legions after the Great Crusade to incite civil war where the Legions would exhaust themselves fighting each other. After exhausting themselves the Legions would be killed off by the "benevolent" Emperor whose hands were "forced" to perform a necessary evil to save the Imperium by killing off his own Legions.
Sanguinius himself saw it as a curse. It tortured him when he had to kill his own sons who were lost to rage. The novel fear to tread made it clear sanguinius wanted a cure.
I think its obvious that Sanguinius himself would agree with guilliman to cure his sons. Sanguinius clearly hated having to kill his sons that were overcome by the black rage. But I do agree that the flaw makes the Blood Angels who they are, so I do kinda see Seth's point.
Sanguinius would be livid about another primarch altering his legion. All the primarchs would be. We all know Dorn and Bobby G are going to get into it hard and heavy when he gets back. Corvis and Vulcan also.
@@HTMR-de8gz So he had no problems killing his afflicted sons? In the books, it was clear he hated it. So I don't know why you think he would be livid. Russ would, with his Space Wolves. But not Sanguinius. Its funny also that you think all primarchs are the same in their thinking. I assure you, they are not.
@@forgedwarrior20 The point is that all the primarchs were alike in their pride in their legion. No I'm not saying sanguinius was accepting of the flaw, or did not show remorse in killing his sons who fell to it. I'm saying sanguinius would be against another primarch doing it. Each primarch was a father to their legion, and would be angry with another primarch who tried to run their house. Sanguinius would not permit guilliman to "solve his problem" sanguinius would not even mention it to the emperor. He was adamant that he, and he alone, bear it with his sons.
@@HTMR-de8gz Well considering he is dead, could he blame Guilliman for doing what he feels is best for the Blood Angels chapter and their successors, especially the Flesh Tearers? I don't think so. I'm not saying Guilliman should even do it, but I see the point from both sides.
@@myfaceismyshield5963 but right up until this point they've been worried about their geneseed completely deteriorating because their marines were succumbing much easier and sooner than ever. A cure comes and now hes butthurt. Flesh tears have been known to eat humans lol..
@@nofuxgivens2797 well... if you've read the later Blood Angels stuff, the new "cured" brothers aren't quite as stable as they seemed to be for the first parts of their crusade
@@myfaceismyshield5963 Red thirst is different from black rage. Red thirst is inherent and will always be there. The geneseed used to make these primaris was taken from stock pre sanguinius death. Upon dying whatever latent psychic power he had was unleashed and altered/magnified the thirst inside his sons and that been carried down to the current marines. From the heresy novels and battles described involving him seemed to hint at an Aura he carried inside him that would guide his sons in battle. Which would control the level of rage inside them. Hes gone and his last influence was that of intense rage and sorrow from such a betrayal from horus. His sons have been fighting that ever since
They’re not flawless. They still have the Red Thirst but are far better able to control it. They don’t have Black Rage - yet. This is a common error among fans.
I can understand Seth. He endures his curse and finds strength in it. He sees his genetic flaws as define traits of the Chapters. But the rest of sons of Sanguinius? Blood Angels? Knights of Blood? Lamenters? How many noble warriors turn into raging monsters? How many innocent died because of it? They see it as a curse, not a strength. So, if you ask me, Dante has a better point.
Even so, the flaws are one of their greatest strengths. Think about how vital the death company was to the survival of Baal, about how many battles were turned by the red thirst.
Thats also true. But look what happened with the Knights of Blood. The whole chapter died because of the genetic flaw. A thousand astartes became Ex Communicado. Just imagine how many worlds they could save, how many enemies of the Imperium would be slaughtered in His name. So much of wasted potential. And their Chapte Master even warned Seth that his own chapter walks pretty similar path. Hell, without relic of the Blood Angels that would happened during the battle. don’t get me wrong. From the narrative point the Blood Thirst and the BLack Rage are freaking awesome! How those proud, noble and sincerely good warriors have to strugle with the Devil within. Their tragedy and endurance make them beyond awesome. Their determination, courage and commitment to the ideas of the Emperor despite their curse make them my favorite Chapter ever. But, as a human I wish they could finally be relieved from it. Of couse that would never happen cause GW need to sell them. I don’t think that Primaris are not share their curse, because... c’mon, the company needs money.
Seth is like a little short sighted child,he cant see farther than his own selfish desires,does he actually want to be a half mad berserker ? Dante knows that Sanguinius never wanted the Red Thirst to affect his children,but Seth thinks it is their primarchs gift to them.
There is A flaw though, namely that Primaris lack experience despite being elites and converting an Astartes into a Primaris can most likely KILL them.
@@boxtank5288 I doubt MAC Daddy would have undergone such un upgrade procedure if it was most likely to kill him, though... Therefore i highly doubt the upgrade of a normal Astartes into a primaris one is so dangerous...
@@skulver True , though to be fair when you compare Guilliman to ANY other Primarch in terms of what they accomplish before the emps finds them... his Empire was like what HALF the size of the Imperium when it was found? 800 worlds and a stable galactic government with a military force able to blunt and stand against a hive fleet? the guy honestly has very good reasons for thinking he knows best , he may be a prick but they guy was DESIGNED to be an administrator and empire builder , and as everyone points out, "the Emp is often TOO good at his job"
@@1Okoya1 I'd actually point at the Primarchs from primitive worlds as more impressive than Guiliman, they conquered way beyond their technologies' abilities. When your fastest method of transport is by ship controlling half or all of a planet is a logistical nightmare, messages take months to years to get delivered - assuming they get delivered at all - and people decide they're a world away and beyond your reach, meaning you're constantly doubling back. Lion, Russ and Khan come to mind.
@@joefriday1435 he should reset the council of terra with people he believes to be free of corruption so the imperium can be run by humans as the emperor intended instead of space marines or primarchs
@@damienrichards7216 That would be vary hard to do, remember it's been 10k years and the imperium has devolved over that time, almost anyone who has the capability for leadership would more then likely be in the commissariat, the inquisition, the ecclesiarchy, or what not, and believe it or not the high lords of terra, as much as they are portrayed otherwise, are actually some of the most effective members of the groups the represent, it's just they all happen to want to get more power for their specific group and as such it becomes difficult for anything to be done, that and some of the high lords don't actually want to be high lords, as they are great strategists and leaders and being a high lord is the equivalent of a desk job when they would rather be out in the field getting shit done.
I believe Seth changed his mind after this Seth: how do I know if this arent ultramarines in red armor? Blood Primaris: *stroke from The Red Thirst * Seth: Come to papa!
"He is willing to interfere with the work of the Emperor?" Seth clearly doesnt know his own gene-father Sanguinius dream was to free his legion of its curses. I mean hell Sanguinius killed his own sons who showed the flaw to hide it from the emperor.
I may not entirely agree, but I see where Seth is coming from. This and the Codex Astartes breaking up the Legions, it's easy to mistake Roboute's actions as trying to remake the Imperium in his image, at the cost of all the other Astarte's identity.
AdeptKing yeah, had the Blood Angels found the solution to the Flaw it would have been great but it would have come at a cost. Instead we have tech priest magos just pop up out of nowhere have a few tens of Thousand Blood angels with extra organs and having the Black Rage cured and the red thirst under near full control? Just didn’t make me all that grand on Primaris.
@@AdeptKing I don't understand where this idea is coming from. Seth doesn't want anyone to cure the Thirst or Rage, they are intrinsically connected to being a Blood Angel/Son of the Angel. He sees the struggle that all Angel's must endure as what sets them apart and forges them as warriors for the Imperium. To remove that struggle is to remove the strength that comes from constantly keeping ones blood thirst and anger in check, even when on the battlefield.
@@sackofpeas2470 Flesh tearers keep it in check? I thought they loved setting it loose with how many time I hear them just mowing through random citizens just to get to one guy.
@James Espinosa So if Space Marine make a mistake it's million times better or worse(I think worse, that's why there are not so many high rank SM in Imperium)
Ah Seth. I love the Flesh Tearers. To be fair, I think Seth's reasons are obvious. HEY LOOK YOU GUYS ROBOUTE IS BACK AND SUDDENLY HERE'S THIS ARMY OF DUDES WITH BETTER GEAR THAN US AND THEY ARE BASICALLY BETTER IN EVERY WAY AND DID YOU SEE THEY BROUGHT US A BIG WOODEN HORSE
@@iamalpharius6288 a primarch returned...one of the greatest generals of whats likely the strongest beings in the galaxy. Does it surprise you that he has secret knowledge ?
@@mihai000000 The "secret knowledge" isn't the issue. It's how that knowledge has manifested. It's corny beyond belief and lacks almost any creativity. As was said, like what a 12 year old would have made up.
“He would make us ultramarines in red armor” This was a very real complaint when Primaris dropped. The blurring of chapter identity. I feel like GW trolls us sometimes...
No, there it is shown the arrogance of some chapters, they place the 'pride' of their heritage above the reason why the Emperor himself created them: to save humanity. They prefer dying in 'glory' and pull down with them the entire imperium, rather than accept change or even some humility, for the sake of mankind.
It's not just heritage, the Red Thirst and Black Rage are tools that hone the killing edge of the Blood Angel's. Seth is saying that it is through their struggle, the same which their gene father struggled with, is key to the success of their chapter. Nothing great ever comes without struggle.
I understand the reasoning of Seth, he believes the new marines don’t have the same experience as they do and hence can’t relate to their kin but their gene father was doing his best to try and save his sons from the defect and would agree with guilliman.
Sinister but the extra organs to improve upon the gene seed? Even the Emperor’s Children Primarchs has to be told “well the Emperor’s work is perfect, so allow me to at least see if there is something I can do, if not then I will stop after all it is a long road to Perfection.”
@@BUSSTISEBOOST I believe that the emperor had the primaris marines project started during the great crusade as many of them remember the crusades so I still think its the emperors work and I don't believe its his finest, his finest creations were the primarchs.
Sinister I never said it wasn’t the best the Emperor could do, however he did make the Legionaries To conquer the galaxy and were his long term solution for it rather than the Thunder Warriors. Now the Adeptus Custodes were far better than the Legions however for being better it always takes longer to harvest the geneseed of them and for implantation and what not, yet the Better Primaris are really only limited due to them only being issued to have Boltguns, yet they have seemingly no flaws (yes Red Thirst and wulfen are there) in terms of perhaps their flaw they could have (and that I personally would like to see) is that they are better but at the cost of expiring far quicker than their “normal” counterparts, say a few hundred years for Primaris compared to the few Thousand for the Adeptus (normal marines). As for the Primaris remembering the great crusade, which book? I know in the Dark Imperium novel Felix talked about being on his home planet training to be an Astartes before Crawl picked him and several others up several years after the Heresy when the Scouring was taking place.
Sanguinius wouldn’t want his sons with any defect he thinks he has passed on. He was always conscious of sensor for any mutation, so I think he would not object to what Guilliman has done IMO
Sanguinius would not want the flaws passed on, true. However, so many of the Chapters and even those within the Blood Angels see it more as a gift then curse. Now it is degenerating at a very slow rate. Let’s face it, you can’t fix something a demon gives you. Though I’m shocked how calm all the sons of the Angel are to an HumN CentiPad experimenting on the flesh of their father.
Yea its rather debatable now.... I mean if you are a father with gen flaws.... You don't want your son to have it. But what if you son accept it as a gift..... What you will do.... Which answer is right well...... None can say really 😂 since both answer have good things and bad things....
Especially Guilliman of all his brothers. Horus, and maybe Lorgar, were the only ones he could’ve trusted if they hadn’t fallen. All others would have slipped. The Lion would had used it to black mail or even censure Sanguinius. But Guilliman, he would not stop brow beating Sanguinius for keeping such a flaw with his self righteous ways.
Sanguinius would be happy to have the flaw gone... the flaw really caused him a lot of pain and anxiety so this would have been a welcome change to him (maybe he would have done it differently but still not sure would object to his brother's decision).
"The Emperor designed the flaw to be part of the Blood Angels" I just think it was a mistake, the Emperor never claims to be perfect and he didn't exactly have a lot of time to design the space marines since he was also dealing with the reunification wars at the time. Like the Thunder Warriors the space marines were designed for a purpose, to be the driving force for the great crusade.
No. The Emperor designed the Blood Angels to be like the World Eaters: psychotic bloodthirsty warriors with no organization no honor. Sanguinius freed them from this, and changed their fate and freed them from the cruel task they had been created to do. Sanguinius saved them.
You have to admit how many battles have been won with death company though. Sometimes having walking glass cannon berserkers helps a lot more than tactility
It is also worth noting here that the red thirst and the black rage are two COMPLETELY different things, and as Dante stated, the primaris have not fallen to the black rage. He says nothing of the red thirst, and the thirst is what sanguinius wanted to cure, while I think Corbulo and Dante are more concerned with the black rage. This is why there are no death company primaris but they DO get the red thirst special rule. The red thirst is the flaw, not the black rage, and people conflate the two constantly it seems. While Gabriel makes a good point about Guilliman, things will most certainly change with the return of another loyalist primarch, which is why we need The Lion so badly.
@@MalchazarZJ hey any movement forward is definitely exciting. The lion can teleport anywhere with his sons. And the lion has learned stealth and surprise attacks.
The red thirst may have been intended by the Emperor however the black rage is definitely not part of his plan. With that in mind I can see Cawl removing the red thirst but the psychic-echo nature of the black rage would be impossible to cure.
"Interesting that he was right, that the flaw was a part of the blood angels, why I can not say..." Intentional programming flaw. Same as the Thunder Warriors. The flaws were built in to be exploited when they were no longer needed. When the custodes were unleashed on them to cut them down and usher peace in with the abolishing of them for what they are - weapons to be melted down in peace times. Roboute making warriors without those built in flaws is directly subjugating humanity to these warriors. They are now no longer exaggerated human beings, but rather supreme biological machines primed to turn on humanity rather than serve - men of iron just in flesh.
Though I understand the reasoning and Seth's feelings, but Guilliman's motivation seems to be only the strengthening of the Imperium. Yes some precious traditions may be lost, but what do they mean in the bigger picture? Space Marines where created as a weapon and shield for humanity. We all understand that the Emperor himself doesn't care about the means, only the goal. If Primarus are helping to protect the Imperium, then it worth it.
Funnily enough, even as a long standing Ultramarines player, I fall hard on the side of Seth in this instance. The echoes of the past are too loud to be ignored...
Be Guilliman>> Create codex Astartes and divide up the legions "because no single man should command the power of a legion ever again" Almost get in a second civil war with loyal brother Dorn over codex>> Quietly replace space marines with primaris marines more loyal to him then to their respective chapters
RG: No more Legions. LR, RD & V: BULLSHIT! RG: Oh, but my Ultramarine's get an exception and also, I've got super-super-soldiers by the hundreds of thousands all way more loyal to me than you. Sound cool? LR, RD & V: (ABSOLOUTELY INCANDESCENT)
@@jimh.1590 The Lion's flaw was purely in social settings, he has an inability to read others and their intentions. But he's still a great leader, he's absolutely as good a leader as Guilliman which he comprehensively proved during the Great Crusade and can just as easily inspire loyalty and respect.
@@BM-wf9uf No he's not, that's the point. He's an unparalleled tactical genius but has zero social graces. If you mean he's a great battle leader, sure. If you mean overall leader like a president, king or such, he'd be terrible. Think Trump but with a brain.
Seth strikes me as a true son Amit. I feel him meeting Gorillaman as doing nothing more than reinforcing his opinion. I wouldn't even put it past Seth to call the Primarch out to his face.
Seth nails it. The primiras will replace all marines to protect the imperium and ensure they're on the right side when gulliman deals with ecclesiarchy #sethknew
I wonder what gulliman requested when he asked for a legion strength force to be created in secret? Why not tell the chapter masters? Why not just create the tec to upgrade marines and hand it to the chapters to reinforce themselves?
@@jamesbaddeley6363 Well hes been brought up to speed on the time hes missed and given how much corruption and hidden enemies have been fought hes probably reluctant to provide any benefits to groups he doesn't know if he can trust and went with his very 'logical' approach instead of giving them the tech provide people who are already loyal and can keep an eye out for any traitor like conduct. Worst case scenario he finds he was right in his speculation if wrong he now knows who is loyal, traitorous or on the fence.
Guilliman is the Emperor in all but name, this is true. However Guilliman never wanted the burden and though he uses it, he is uncomfortable in this station. Where Sanguinius to return, Guilliman would gladly give the title to him, for he believes that of all the Primarchs, Sanguinius truly is the one who is more like the Emperor. Think on that. Of the remaining loyalist Primarchs, Guilliman has never believed that they have the qualities a leader of all mankind should have and of the remaining Primarchs, only the Lion would truly doubt Guilliman to have the right intentions for the Imperium.
juan jacobo yarce velez I agree to a point, it has to be said that Malcador the Sigillite was greatly concerned that Guilliman would attempt a sort of coup against the emperor, and that he would seize power in a more roundabout way, but the events of Imperium Secundus put those fears at ease for a while
Who better to rule in his father's absence, Dorn is hiding out, Lionel is passed out drunk in the Rock, Russ is balls deep in the eye of terror, Corvus is busy being Emo, Kahn is dicking about in the web way, and Vulkan (who'd probably be the most suited to rule, with girly man as a military advisor) is off pretending to be dead for some reason.
Papa Smurf is doing the best he can right now. He doesn't mean to insult any of his brothers or their chapters. He thinking about what's coming and what he needs in the present. He can not expect any help, he has to act now.
Just the implication that Guilliman could be, in anyway, doing something heretical or treasonous..... I'm surprised the heretic Ward has not emerged in his greater daemon form to have his vengeance.
Hey really love the channel. Have you considered narrating entire books from the black library? Maybe as a monthly patreon reward or such. I love your narrations, they really bring the lore to life, and having an entire book read by you would be awesome!
@@Commodore22345 nah man... you gota think big picture. Each legion was a specialized combat unit. To be a succesful empire, you need different military divisions with different specialities... Airforce, navy, armored etc. Etc.
@@Commodore22345 regular troops dont stand much of a chance against most of the enemies faced... We both know the empire wouldnt have ever worked without the marines...
@@Commodore22345 actually even tho most of the wars have been fought by the regular troops. The major ones and even in most of the lore it is won by the Space marines and your thing about each chapter not needing its own special way of fighting isn't fully true technically space marines would be the term you use for special forces groups like Delta teams are special forces same with us Army ranger's or the British Royal Marines but all fight and operate differently. Another one to show is the SS from ww2 which is also counted as an elite/special forces group but was used as line breakers.
@@Commodore22345 ok but some Space Marine chapters are better at fighting Chaos then others. Yes, I agree to allow heretical beliefs and teachings are bad for them. But it does affect the military power they have and you can't expect everyone to just follow the new marines. And honestly, its PaPa smurf trying to fix a mistake that he knows he made. And taking away the individual combat styles of the chapters makes no sense. It's like would you make all the legions the same? No, it is the different ways of fighting that allow them to be able to combat forces correctly. And saying you can't compare real life to 40k you technically can just because everything isn't a 1 to 1 exact thing you can still see how it is similar.
Guilliman is many steps from being Emperor. Emperor didn't intend for his Primarch children to rule the Imperium. As such, there will be MANY steps between Guilliman being Emperor unless he stages a civil war... Good break down. Thank you!!
you think, there is no such steps between them. guilliman could merely throw the Emperor down from his throne and take his place. who says he did not STEAL the sword from his very hands.
Dark Angels player, ensuring the purity of the Lion's sons isn't tainted by Guilliman's filth for my own army. Not a single Primaris marine or vehicle either. Funny how it's only the Unforgiven and the Flesh Tearers that have any idea what's going on. Seth told Dante all this, and the Dark Angels nearly had a civil war on their hands, after they tried to "make their own primaris repent," if you know what I mean.
My Blood Angels army is primaris free, and will always be so. Hit the comment section first, but hardly now why these primaris even exist. Tactical Squad 2, assault squad 2, sniper squad 2 ... it's tactically same squads that already existed. Not gonna replace my 10.000+ point army, because GW makes replacement models for everything I already have in that army. Only reason people seem to buy them, is because they're OP in tournaments. Yeah, totally not boring to play against. -_-' Anyhoo, let's hear what this is about. Edit. Calling BS on this one, no way would someone that has been ruling a chapter for over 1200 years, be this stupid and gullible as Cmdr Dante is portrayed here!
I can see where GW is going with the story, but I just don't understand why we needed these Primaris Chad Marines. Don't get me wrong...I love Astartes, but they were already badass enough before GW gave them half an Immortis gland and some other ridiculous upgrades. I can totally see how regular Astartes feel about Primaris though. It's the equivalent of being a cop and having the feds show up to "help" you. Another example is being a modern day infantryman having a bunch of spec ops guys just show up out of nowhere and integrate into your platoon/company. You have no idea if they have a secret mission, and they're not very interested in interacting with you. Guilliman is definitely setting up failsafes.
Yeah but you have to think about it from the models perspective as well right. I mean, people have been complaining about the scale of marines for decades. These giant 8ft tall monsters are the same damn height as the imperial guardsmen on the table. So they decide to make some big marines for the table, but if they just release them as normal marines thats a stick in the eye of everyone who bought the product before, not to mention you can never have the old marines and new marines in the same army without it looking totally wonky. Now, they can have their cake and eat it too. Everyone who has space marines can continue to buy primaris without feeling like their old armies need to be tossed out, while the scale-bunnies are all happy that they get their big marines, and GW is happy cause they get to make a whole new range of models and reap our hard earned cash. Given that, its logical that they would decide to go this route. I'm not saying they couldn't have done better, or make more internal consistencies, cause when you think about it the scale is still off cause Primaris are, on the table, as tall as regular marines are supposed to be, so true-scale Primaris would be even bigger. GW deff has a problem with gigantism, but ultimately I am glad they decided to move the damn story forward and if they feel like they need marines 2.0 to do that, then I'm happy to take them in exchange.
@@CrimsonUltrafox Yeah, but how to explain the massive difference in height would be a challenge. Not saying they couldn't have planned this better and started laying hints about this change some years ago, then it would all be this awesome massive plan. But they did what they did lol I mean, considering how GW's changed over the last few years? I am hesitant to lob too much critique their way. I want them to keep doing what they are doing, improve if possible but damn we were out in the cold before.
@@Socrates3141 Tabletop doesn't need some lore reason to scale up the marines. They could have just said they were scaling the models properly now. That and they can say that they were upgraded with new wargear. People still would have bought the new models anyways and liked them more for it. Lore wise, aren't regular Astartes like 2 and half meters tall on average? Do they really need to be bigger than that? It starts getting a bit silly when they're over 9 feet tall. Primaris just add another tier of superhuman to the Imperium that we really didn't need. Like why do we need super space marines? Doesn't that just make the old ones completely obsolete? I try not to be hypercritical of GW because they have done a lot of good things in the recent years. However, I just think that from a story perspective that space marines really didn't need a biological upgrade. But they're already here to stay so I guess we're just stuck with them. I play Eldar so it doesn't really affect me as much.
my co worker just got me into 40k and these videos have been a godsend iv gone through so many of them and with each one i become more and more enthralled with the series thank you rho
The "Children of the Omnissiah" track in the background works really well. It provides a great audio accompaniment that reflects the beauty and grandeur of the sons of Sanguinius. When Guilliman thought the Imperium lost in the betrayal of Horus, he sought to salvage whatever he could into Imperium Secundus. He refused the seat of Emperor over that, insisting that Sanguinius take the position instead. Maybe Sanguinius discussed the secrets of his legion with Guilliman? I don't think Guilliman is trying to usurp the gene sons of his brother, but rather to save them. As for Seth, if he believes so strongly about this, why doesn't he seek to speak with Guilliman about it? From what I know, Guilliman loved his brother Sanguinius, and thought very highly of him. Seth probably wouldn't get everything "his own way" with Guilliman, but I think he'd be pleasantly surprised.
Honestly wasn't really a Blood Angels fan before this, so I gave it and Dante a listen to see what the hubbub was about. What it did instead was make me a huge Flesh Tearers fan, and particularly of Gabriel Seth.
It has been stated that the Primaris Marines aren't fully cured of the Red Thirst. I think what might happen is the Blood Angels will have another confutation with Ka'Bandha. And during this he'll fully awaken the Thirst and the Rage within the Primaris Marines.
Seth speaking truth to power here, the Astartes of old have died, and the culture of so many Legions is in danger of being wiped away by that of the Ultramarines.
Monkegh Thirtyfour the lexicanum leads to a different telling that suggest saniunius resisted and the Apothecary Melos sacrificing himself in sanguinius place
What is interesting is that it all plays on the view the big E held when he made the Space Marines. He made them to be obsolete. Neither they, nor their Gene Seed was intended to operate for ten thousand years. That's why it's been breaking down in nearly every chapter. Space Marines were intended to die out when no longer needed. You don't keep a bunch of bored Trans-Humans about with nothing to do. It causes problems. The Primaris were supposedly accepted by the Big E as a re-envisioning of his idea but with the actual current state and future state of the Imperium in mind. They have a clock ticking as well but if you really think about it, the Legion Marines were technically (by writing) on par with the Primaris. Gene-Seed that was so clean it was compatible with so many humans that you could produce Space Marines by the Hundred-Thousand. As time wore on the compatibility waned and it became harder and harder to make new space marines. The Primaris are massed produced at Legion levels again. So it resets the clock. I don't think Papa Smurf is out for himself, though, arguably, the Imperium needs a Living Leader that can walk among them. That's Papa Smurf. Let the big E hold the Emperor slot and let Papa Smurf run things. He is, after all, the Emperor's crafted Administrator among his Primarchs. Papa Smurf was designed to be a ruler and administrator. Others had other purposes.
Russ probably shouldn't have run away to the Eye and let the Imperium degenerate to the state that it has. If the Executioner had been present, I'm certain a number of events wouldn't have occurred that got us to where we are.
I would like to see more from chapter's of the 13th dark founding and 21st cursed founding chapters on the primaris marines. As well as the Iron hands Raven guard and the Space Wolves.
I just finished reading the book and, while I understand Seth's point of view, I have to side with Dante on the issue of the Primaris Marines. It's true, the Red Thirst and the Black Rage have defined the Blood Angels and their successor chapters for melinnia. They've lived with it for so long, that the idea that there is a way to mitigate the thirst is inconceivable, if not abhorrent. They no nothing else. It's like someone who has had a piece of glass stuck in his foot for years, learned to live with the pain, and rejects the offer to have it removed because he doesn't know how to live without the pain. As you mentioned, Rho, Dante would be steeped in the writings of Sanguinias. This is what the Great Angel would have wanted: it was just delivered by Guilliman and Cawl instead.
I can see where he's coming from but it sounds really arrogant on his part. They spend their whole lives struggling to keep the rage and thirst in check, Sanginius himself would do almost anything to cure it and the moment someone comes with a solution he turns it away? What is he mad that a Blood Angel didn't figure out the solution?
I take it more in the way that he sees the "flaw" not as something wrong with them, but what makes a Son of Sanguinius stand apart from the other Astartes. The Flesh Tearers are renowned for their brutality, while also keeping themselves in check when always on the edge of the Black Rage. Even for less aggressive successors/the main BA's, their Red Thirst is something that gives them an extra boost of energy/killing focus. So it's seen as something that shouldn't be fixed, as the annals of the Blood Angel's are filled with stories of heroes who performed awe-inspiring acts while driven forward by the Red Thirst and those who succumb to the Black Rage are sent to die in times of great need of the chapter. The struggle is what puts them apart. It's like the greatest athletes in the world, most didn't come from a privileged existence, but rather struggled day in and day out to rise to the top. So that struggle is intrinsically connected to how they operate at the highest levels.
@@sackofpeas2470 Are you kidding me? There are more than enough occasions where Flesh Tearers behaved like absolute mad lads and killed not only fellow Astartes, but IGs, Sisters of Battle and Civillians.
@@CedricBassman "There are more than enough occasions where Flesh Tearers behaved like absolute mad lads and killed not only fellow Astartes, but IGs, Sisters of Battle and Civillians." Meanwhile, over some random planet. "Lord Inquisitor, we've found a heretic on this world." "Exterminatus. If there's one, then the whole world is probably traitor." And millions of innocents died a pointless death. As Ana-Maria said, welcome to the grim darkness of the 41st Millennium.
@coinny22 The point is, Flesh Tearers killing their allies is no different to an inquisitor killing countless innocents over a single heretic, something that many of the more zealous inquisitors have no problem doing. It has nothing to do with Seth being right (which he is), it's just a response to the implication that the Flesh Tearers are the only group in the Imperium who go out murdering their fellow Imperial citizens.
Based on Fear to Tread, where Sanguinius says that only a few of his sons seem to fall to the thirst though he says he cannot be sure how many die in battle with it raging through them. Cawl drew from stock of pure primarch DNA for his Primaris project. Since he pulled it from the source the Black Rage would not be present as that was a psychic imprint on his living sons during the Horus Heresy (which all successor chapters drew from) , then be drawing from the pure stick there should be no Black Rage. So I would say Cawl has more or less restored the gene seed to the times of the Legion, where the flaw was rarer and the Black Rage does not exist.
@@asaenvolk Fair point. The Warp works in mysterious ways. Though I guess I always interpreted the Black Rage as a scar on the members of the Legion at the moment of Sanguinius' death. Through their lineage did the Black Rage continue. But that is just my interpretation
I've been reading GW/BL books for about 20 years. I didn't realize until DoB that the BA chapters went so far as human consumption. I fail on my part, but DoB is a fantastic read.
I frankly agree with Seth here, something about the Primaris always rubbed me the wrong way. Guilliman’s actions while necessary, will cause major shifts within the Chapters. And not to mention my major fear. Think back to every time someone other than the Emperor Himself has tried to work with the Geneseed of the Marines. We have the entire Cursed Founding Chapters as a result, Corax’s attempt at making stronger marines was easily sabotaged and resulted in horrid monstrosities which haunted him for the rest of his days. I say the same thing will happen with Primaris, in time. It’s a major portion of my personal Chapter’s story, they fear that these, Primaris Marines, now replacing the older Marines, have some hidden flaw, for how could any mortal compare to the Emperor’s own Work. Not to mention, I completely agree that Primaris Marines are just Ultramarines with different colors. There’s nothing unique to them, when I started 40k I almost fell in with the Primaris, but their lack of an identity, their monotone abilities, their total lack of variety just kept taking me away from them, their Lore was the nail on the coffin. I always point to this one action of Guilliman to demonstrate his arrogance. Before Guilliman came back, Cawl was Just another Archmagos, but now? Guilliman, an Imperial Figure, who knows very little of how the Adeptus Mechanicus works, named Cawl Fabricator General of Mars. A Schism that almost tore Mars apart was waged for this exact fear! And Guilliman just trampled over the Machine Cults treatises and Culture to put his personal butt Buddy as the head of the Faction. That alone made me despise Guilliman, not only was he messing with the Marines, something which he has some sliver of a claim to do being a Primarch, but he messed with the Adeptus Mechanicus, the one Faction that is separatefrom the Imperium and not ruled by its leaders as dictated BY THE EMPEROR HIMSELF when he joined forces with them. Civil War is coming, I’m certain
The Emperor is not the only person who worked on the Primarch/Space Marine project, one person who helped him with the work was Belisarius Cawl. Outside of the fact the GDubs gets to make money selling new units, if you look at the situation the empire is in they need any bit of help they can get AND it progressed the story while adding new strength & doubt at the same time which increases dramatic tension........ The whole thing is actually a rather well planned move for the game and the story as the Primaris are just a representation of what is actually being introduced: innovation, change, progress, whatever you want to call it this is good for Warhammer 40,000.
@@robdeskrd Yes.... But the Primaris marines. Are all the fucking same. EVERY faction has unique characteristics for each army. Even the fucking Orks. But Primaris Marines. Are the same. There is no unique difference between them all. You can paint em different. But they all owe Guilliman allegiance and are mind numbingly boring and samey. Which is lore and gaming cancer. Reinforcements ARE nice. But the rule of cool is what matters. And they ain't cool. At all. It feels like Matt ward has infected EVERY space marines Chapter to become Ultramarines. Which are my most hated Space Marines. Due to their boring, well, everything, they actually made me hate space marines. Then I got Salamanders, Lamenters, and Doom Eagles. Which are now becoming Ultramarines. Great. Because we needed more fuckin' Ultramarines. Not like they have a Primarch. Or are the most added chapter in everything. Or the most boring, comporable to the white Scars, who are at least unique.
@Vfor Vriendetta The Emperor probably knew I think. But who knows if the Astartes were even supposed to last forever. like the Thunder Warriors they may have been disposable after their task was done. Maybe it didn't matter if they had the red thirst. They weren't going to be around forever.
@Vfor Vriendetta It is a good point. However that decision was made 10,000 years ago. The Emperor could have changed his mind. Also he wasn't stuck on the Golden Throne then. And finally, Bobby G. consulted with the Emperor before the Primaris were unleashed. I'm pretty sure that the stamp of approval was given. And based on the Emperor's history I do not see him turning down a weapon like the Primaris at all.
Honestly.... Primaris marines just make ALL the space marines in my opinion the same. Which is fuckin' boring on table top and lore. Especially considering how fuckin' hated the Ultramares have been for years. Then they did this. Fuckin' damnit. It just.... Sucks. Tip of that they look boring as shit.
If the blood angels are replaced by primaris and like the wolves as well will lose most if not all of their personality. At least the ither chapters have a personality that isnt related to their gene flaw
@@randomlygeneratedname tbh, the Blood Angels Primaris could be interesting for an in lore debate between the Blood Angels and their chapters about weather or not they want to keep their flaws or if their happy with them being easier to keep in check. Primaris still seem to have the flaws, they just seem to have more self control.
RG is a clone of Horus made by Fabius and Ahriman. Abbadon got wind of it and got so enraged that the rift appeared. The clone thinks he is RG. That is the truth. I know , I was there on the Vengeful Spirit when Abbadon received the message.
I was very prepared to disregard Gabriel's attitude, but after listening to his words, he's right. Whether or not Guilliman is doing it intentionally, or doing it maliciously, he is sterilizing the Astartes into uniformity, losing their individuality as chapters to the raw power upgrade of the Primaris, even without some ominous threat of their corruption, it is a significant blow to quality of the Legios, and to their heritages. Even so, a lot of stuff that the Emperor (seemingly) didn't intend happened, and curing the gene seed of a bunch of very broken super soldier man-children demigods seems like an overall plus for the Imperium.
@@gabrielm.942 They reject the Avenging Son's gift and just like the Thunder Warriors, they rage on with barbaric rage and bloodlust that has no place in the grand vision of the Emperor. The God Emepror of Mankind has done it before, his will is absolute!!!
@@firstcaptainvaleriusrensor463 Ultrasmurf, by the sounds of things. Only one kind of person can honestly think Guilliman is anything other than the butt of all jokes.
for my thoughts, the flaws in each chapter were deliberate, the wolves thought the wolfen was removed from their primaris, until it turned out it wasn't, with much screaming and bolter fire. As for primaris the cynic in me knows its just an upgrade by GW to give a 40yo model a fresh look, but I think the lore around them is quite interesting, as the characters in the books copy the players own conversations, with gamers using characters comments to support their arguments, life and art imitating each other very interesting times in 40k
I actually really like the blood angels. I just wish they would have done more books about them for the Horus Heresy. Fear to Tread was awesome, but it would be cool to see more of Sanguinius and his sons owning a couple more daemons.
the first chapter master of flesh tearer Nasir Amit basically loyalist kharn and most honest man in imperium history as he stay true to his word even facing a primarch fist also he somehow lived to 2000 years old.
Hi mate, again I wanted to send you this through email but cant find one. Anyhow, if I am allowed, I would suggest for you to make longer videos covering some major battles (for instance Destruction of Ball etc). Following the success of videos made by Arch Warhammer or Luetin about the Emperor or videos about orc invasion of Armagedon or Siege of Vraks kindly check them out so you can improve. This might sound like "do what they are doing" and ppl are reluctant to copy others, but audience responded amazingly well on these videos and your narration is stupendous! I would really like to see longer videos concerning major battles (possibly against Tyranids) with your narration. If you compare videos and views on those videos of aforementioned topic and content creators you can see that doing something like that can help you channel to grow very well. Hope you will see this as helpful comment since I do enoy ur content and want to see your channel getting bigger since u deserve it. Cheers buddy
Agree. I would watch em for sure. I am a fan of WH40K for about 2 years,the lore aspect mostly and barely started understanding the whole picture of the universe. It took me 2 years to cover the basics...but i know very little about specific events/battles besides the horus heresy.
Guilliman: listen I heard your chapter is slowly falling to their gene-
Seth: THEY ARE TURING US INTO ULTRAMARINES!!!!!!!!!! HE IS UNDOING OUR CULTURE!!!!!!!!!!!!
😂😂
Guilliman: little bit dramatic aren’t we…
@@4hire565
Guilliman mentally: oh throne he’s just like Nassir Amit
@@dino-bk7vh hahaha
Guilliman doesn’t have a choice. Guilliman wants to win a war. Seth wants to maintain a lifestyle.
Agreed.
Yep
Well said
"Guilliman would turn us into Ultramarines in red armour. We will have to buy generic Space Marine packs together with a Flesh Tearers Primaris upgrade kit."
Lol.
Jun Okura if don’t what break the lord the sons of Phoenix are probably actually sons of Dorn keep mind all of the third legion geniseed was lost before finding Fulgrim and since the lot of them used the big E’s Original supply and not collected stock it unlikely otherwise I’m calling bullshit
Blood Ravens fit being red Ultramarine recolor better than Flesh Tearers
@@danishsyed1068 its a homebrew chapter of an employee that they made canon, if the creator says they come from Dorn, then that's where they cone from until said otherwise.
Jun Okura true but it still would be bull
"Make us ultramarines in red armour"
Ouch...Gabrial
Best line in the novel.
@@psykerwave2315 Most retarded line you mean.
Seth is like a little short sighted child,he cant see farther than his own selfish desires,does he actually want to be a half mad berserker ? Dante knows that Sanguinius never wanted the Red Thirst to affect his children,but Seth thinks it is their primarchs gift to them.
@Kyros Droztamyr lol
Ah so you are a " wow my opinion is so unique that must mean i am special too wow everyone else is such an idiot " kind of person mhm ?
So what would you do ? The galaxy and its 23424324 Xenos races,Chaos and everyone else is destroying your ass day by day,and then comes someone who gifts you a thousand new super soldiers,tanks,new weapons,and everything else your chapter needs to survive...and you say no to that ? Even Orks would say yes to that.
Besides if you really liked the Blood Angels and you would have actual knowledge about them you would know that even during the Great Crusade Sanguinius hated the red thirst and even killed some of his own soldiers who had fallen to it to keep it a secret,he never wanted his sons to suffer from it,he wanted it gone,and Seth is a retarded piece of shit for thinking its the actual heritage of their primarch,he is worshipping something Sanguinius hated.
Also nice how you cant make a point without insulting someone,shows perfectly what you and Seth are,children,grow the fuck up dude.
Spot the lie. They have better control over the thirst (for now) which makes them more compliant. They don’t have the black rage (somehow). Really they’re like the Clones from SW. Say one phrase and entire chapters could be purged.
@@ubiquitouspanda4466 and yet he did not refuse those marines a place in his chapter. Anyway, Seth, the harsh but noble warrior we knew and loved, lovingly written by James Swallow, is long gone, now we have a maniac who would assault medical transports with Death Company brothers, betraying both them and the Imperium, only to cover some nasty tracks, so we can ignore anything he says and be fine with it.
Except Sanguinnius himself, in his own words, said he wanted to rid his legions of the thirst....
And Cawl said the thirst was put there by design by the Emperor, and Sang wouldn't nay say the Emperor
Indeed, I remember reading a short story a while ago taking place during Ullanor triumph or thereabouts where Sang and Horus were having a drink and a Blood Angel came and informed Sanguinius of yet another of his was going mad - after Sanguinius send him off, Horus was really quetioning him, like "what happened" and "what did you want to tell me" and all that, and poor Sang was at a loss for words for the whole situation. Sanguinius hated the flaw - even perhaps as he saw the "benefits" it brought. What aches me more is that with the Primaris replacement, all the pain and misery of 10000 years that Blood Angels & Co. had to go about will go down unremembered and forgotten.
@@PhilipAlexanderHassialis That could be from the start of Fear to Tread or the short story that kinda went with it based in 40K that has some psychic time traveling oddites to do the the sarcophagus the BA's use
I would argue that the Rage only appeared at Sanguinius' death. Whereas the Thirst was always present. So I would argue that the Thirst is part of their heritage, not so much the Rage.
Carl Hurley
It appeared before it on Signus Prime, then again on Terra.
@@kelman727 incorrect
In the book Dante, doesn’t Dante himself falls into the rage? he blacked out, killed 6 civilians and recovered with help from a visit from the sanguinor…is that not the rage?
@@JesseNowak i think that was just the thirst but also the big golden warp being could probably negate the rage if it really wanted to
@@rubenguitron-martinez3218 I know one blood angel has beaten the black rage twice but I don't remember who.
*Cough* Thunder Warriors *Cough*
Just a matter of time.
That would be truly tragic, as it would prove the Chaos Space Marines right in one regard that they were going to be tossed aside like a used tool. I really hope it doesn't come to that.
@@randomcenturion7264 It was also going to come to that. Astartes were mass produced, flawed to all heck, and completely expendable.
Except people are forgetting about the fact that regular astartes can be upgraded to primaris. Unlike the thunder warriors who where COMPLETELY inadequate for maintaining a galactic empire after being conquered, astartes still fit the moald like a glove.
@@Commodore22345 I do see it as tragic. Despite being made as weapons, Space Marine have demonstrated that they are fantastic architects, artists, philosophers, statesmen, engineers and many other occupations. Even if they no longer need to wage war, (which given if the Great Crusade worked and Chaos died, the Orks were still growing in strength and 10'000 years later, the Tyranids showed up. You'd need Space Marines to fight them.), they could still be made useful.
Yes, they are weapons, but they are capable of so much more. I find it hard to fathom the Emperor, as harsh as he is, being so wasteful.
@@randomcenturion7264 It is true that the Astartes would have been made redundant by the end or after the Great Crusade. Idk which novel but there is a passage by Malcador between one of his confidants that there was a plan, or at least a set of plans, to cause friction between the Legions after the Great Crusade to incite civil war where the Legions would exhaust themselves fighting each other. After exhausting themselves the Legions would be killed off by the "benevolent" Emperor whose hands were "forced" to perform a necessary evil to save the Imperium by killing off his own Legions.
Sanguinius himself saw it as a curse. It tortured him when he had to kill his own sons who were lost to rage. The novel fear to tread made it clear sanguinius wanted a cure.
They act fell to the red thirst. The black rage didn't take place until Sanguinius died. The psychic in print of his death going deeeeeppp.
I think its obvious that Sanguinius himself would agree with guilliman to cure his sons. Sanguinius clearly hated having to kill his sons that were overcome by the black rage.
But I do agree that the flaw makes the Blood Angels who they are, so I do kinda see Seth's point.
Sanguinius would be livid about another primarch altering his legion. All the primarchs would be.
We all know Dorn and Bobby G are going to get into it hard and heavy when he gets back. Corvis and Vulcan also.
@@HTMR-de8gz So he had no problems killing his afflicted sons? In the books, it was clear he hated it. So I don't know why you think he would be livid. Russ would, with his Space Wolves. But not Sanguinius. Its funny also that you think all primarchs are the same in their thinking. I assure you, they are not.
@@forgedwarrior20
The point is that all the primarchs were alike in their pride in their legion.
No I'm not saying sanguinius was accepting of the flaw, or did not show remorse in killing his sons who fell to it. I'm saying sanguinius would be against another primarch doing it. Each primarch was a father to their legion, and would be angry with another primarch who tried to run their house. Sanguinius would not permit guilliman to "solve his problem" sanguinius would not even mention it to the emperor. He was adamant that he, and he alone, bear it with his sons.
@@HTMR-de8gz Well considering he is dead, could he blame Guilliman for doing what he feels is best for the Blood Angels chapter and their successors, especially the Flesh Tearers? I don't think so. I'm not saying Guilliman should even do it, but I see the point from both sides.
He's not curing his sons at all ,you can't cure a blood angel by replacing him
Seth is the local police chief who’s salty about the FBI taking over the investigation
And comically incompetent too
True. Lol.
@@Brandelwyn Wait, who's incompetent. Seth or the Space-FBI?
@@williamsouthworth9707 Seth of course. Though i should have added that he's also batshit insane
@@Brandelwynhe's been dealt a bad hand and done better with it than any before him. I doubt many in the imperium could have done better.
I wouldn't trust Papa Smurf either if he was replacing all my psychotic gene flawed brothers with likely zero flaws Primaris Marines
Too good to be true... very suspicious
@@myfaceismyshield5963 but right up until this point they've been worried about their geneseed completely deteriorating because their marines were succumbing much easier and sooner than ever. A cure comes and now hes butthurt. Flesh tears have been known to eat humans lol..
@@nofuxgivens2797 well... if you've read the later Blood Angels stuff, the new "cured" brothers aren't quite as stable as they seemed to be for the first parts of their crusade
@@myfaceismyshield5963 Red thirst is different from black rage. Red thirst is inherent and will always be there. The geneseed used to make these primaris was taken from stock pre sanguinius death. Upon dying whatever latent psychic power he had was unleashed and altered/magnified the thirst inside his sons and that been carried down to the current marines. From the heresy novels and battles described involving him seemed to hint at an Aura he carried inside him that would guide his sons in battle. Which would control the level of rage inside them. Hes gone and his last influence was that of intense rage and sorrow from such a betrayal from horus. His sons have been fighting that ever since
They’re not flawless.
They still have the Red Thirst but are far better able to control it.
They don’t have Black Rage - yet.
This is a common error among fans.
I can understand Seth. He endures his curse and finds strength in it. He sees his genetic flaws as define traits of the Chapters.
But the rest of sons of Sanguinius? Blood Angels? Knights of Blood? Lamenters? How many noble warriors turn into raging monsters? How many innocent died because of it? They see it as a curse, not a strength. So, if you ask me, Dante has a better point.
Even so, the flaws are one of their greatest strengths. Think about how vital the death company was to the survival of Baal, about how many battles were turned by the red thirst.
Thats also true. But look what happened with the Knights of Blood. The whole chapter died because of the genetic flaw. A thousand astartes became Ex Communicado. Just imagine how many worlds they could save, how many enemies of the Imperium would be slaughtered in His name. So much of wasted potential. And their Chapte Master even warned Seth that his own chapter walks pretty similar path. Hell, without relic of the Blood Angels that would happened during the battle.
don’t get me wrong. From the narrative point the Blood Thirst and the BLack Rage are freaking awesome! How those proud, noble and sincerely good warriors have to strugle with the Devil within. Their tragedy and endurance make them beyond awesome. Their determination, courage and commitment to the ideas of the Emperor despite their curse make them my favorite Chapter ever.
But, as a human I wish they could finally be relieved from it. Of couse that would never happen cause GW need to sell them. I don’t think that Primaris are not share their curse, because... c’mon, the company needs money.
Seth is like a little short sighted child,he cant see farther than his own selfish desires,does he actually want to be a half mad berserker ? Dante knows that Sanguinius never wanted the Red Thirst to affect his children,but Seth thinks it is their primarchs gift to them.
There is A flaw though, namely that Primaris lack experience despite being elites and converting an Astartes into a Primaris can most likely KILL them.
@@boxtank5288 I doubt MAC Daddy would have undergone such un upgrade procedure if it was most likely to kill him, though... Therefore i highly doubt the upgrade of a normal Astartes into a primaris one is so dangerous...
Switch Guilliman with Sanguinius and Seth would kill anyone who spoke his own words to him.
@@skulver True , though to be fair when you compare Guilliman to ANY other Primarch in terms of what they accomplish before the emps finds them... his Empire was like what HALF the size of the Imperium when it was found? 800 worlds and a stable galactic government with a military force able to blunt and stand against a hive fleet? the guy honestly has very good reasons for thinking he knows best , he may be a prick but they guy was DESIGNED to be an administrator and empire builder , and as everyone points out, "the Emp is often TOO good at his job"
Sanguinius never wrote a Codex Astartes.
That would certainly be interesting for the imperium...
@@1Okoya1 I'd actually point at the Primarchs from primitive worlds as more impressive than Guiliman, they conquered way beyond their technologies' abilities. When your fastest method of transport is by ship controlling half or all of a planet is a logistical nightmare, messages take months to years to get delivered - assuming they get delivered at all - and people decide they're a world away and beyond your reach, meaning you're constantly doubling back.
Lion, Russ and Khan come to mind.
@@whippingtoddlerthewanderer9588 Sanguinius too, I just couldn't remember off the top of my head if he took the planet or one of the moons.
“Regent? Why not emperor?”
Wow I couldn’t sum it up better than that.
A politician yes. Always but took a lesser position during his second empire. Gab forgets it was the angel he made empie
@@anthonyknight1816 yeah but that was so he could have all the power but sanguinius would have the responsibility
You got a better suggestion?
@@joefriday1435 he should reset the council of terra with people he believes to be free of corruption so the imperium can be run by humans as the emperor intended instead of space marines or primarchs
@@damienrichards7216 That would be vary hard to do, remember it's been 10k years and the imperium has devolved over that time, almost anyone who has the capability for leadership would more then likely be in the commissariat, the inquisition, the ecclesiarchy, or what not, and believe it or not the high lords of terra, as much as they are portrayed otherwise, are actually some of the most effective members of the groups the represent, it's just they all happen to want to get more power for their specific group and as such it becomes difficult for anything to be done, that and some of the high lords don't actually want to be high lords, as they are great strategists and leaders and being a high lord is the equivalent of a desk job when they would rather be out in the field getting shit done.
I believe Seth changed his mind after this
Seth: how do I know if this arent ultramarines in red armor?
Blood Primaris: *stroke from The Red Thirst *
Seth: Come to papa!
"He is willing to interfere with the work of the Emperor?"
Seth clearly doesnt know his own gene-father Sanguinius dream was to free his legion of its curses. I mean hell Sanguinius killed his own sons who showed the flaw to hide it from the emperor.
I may not entirely agree, but I see where Seth is coming from. This and the Codex Astartes breaking up the Legions, it's easy to mistake Roboute's actions as trying to remake the Imperium in his image, at the cost of all the other Astarte's identity.
Finbar Brolly pretty sure Sanginius would approve of getting rid of the thirst. It sounds like Seth is mad that a Blood Angel didn't find a solution.
AdeptKing yeah, had the Blood Angels found the solution to the Flaw it would have been great but it would have come at a cost. Instead we have tech priest magos just pop up out of nowhere have a few tens of Thousand Blood angels with extra organs and having the Black Rage cured and the red thirst under near full control? Just didn’t make me all that grand on Primaris.
@@AdeptKing I don't understand where this idea is coming from. Seth doesn't want anyone to cure the Thirst or Rage, they are intrinsically connected to being a Blood Angel/Son of the Angel. He sees the struggle that all Angel's must endure as what sets them apart and forges them as warriors for the Imperium. To remove that struggle is to remove the strength that comes from constantly keeping ones blood thirst and anger in check, even when on the battlefield.
@@sackofpeas2470 Flesh tearers keep it in check? I thought they loved setting it loose with how many time I hear them just mowing through random citizens just to get to one guy.
@James Espinosa So if Space Marine make a mistake it's million times better or worse(I think worse, that's why there are not so many high rank SM in Imperium)
Ah Seth. I love the Flesh Tearers. To be fair, I think Seth's reasons are obvious.
HEY LOOK YOU GUYS ROBOUTE IS BACK AND SUDDENLY HERE'S THIS ARMY OF DUDES WITH BETTER GEAR THAN US AND THEY ARE BASICALLY BETTER IN EVERY WAY AND DID YOU SEE THEY BROUGHT US A BIG WOODEN HORSE
That’s a very good point right there, who doesn’t want a big wooden horse?
The whole Primaris fluff is just awwful. Its like fanfiction from a 12 years old boy...
@@fullgreys0n738 True, literally someone in the drawing board just said "Lets make space marines that are more space marine than space marines"
@@iamalpharius6288 a primarch returned...one of the greatest generals of whats likely the strongest beings in the galaxy. Does it surprise you that he has secret knowledge ?
@@mihai000000 The "secret knowledge" isn't the issue. It's how that knowledge has manifested. It's corny beyond belief and lacks almost any creativity. As was said, like what a 12 year old would have made up.
“Ultramarines in red armor! Just look at them!“
*I CATO SICARIUS, KNIGHT CHAMPION OF MACRAGGE-*
AH! (Punches him in the face)
“He would make us ultramarines in red armor”
This was a very real complaint when Primaris dropped. The blurring of chapter identity.
I feel like GW trolls us sometimes...
No, there it is shown the arrogance of some chapters, they place the 'pride' of their heritage above the reason why the Emperor himself created them: to save humanity.
They prefer dying in 'glory' and pull down with them the entire imperium, rather than accept change or even some humility, for the sake of mankind.
UncleFester84 it sounds like he's just mad that a son of Sanguinius didn't find a solution for the problem.
If this leads to another heresy because of one fucking whackjob's pride, I'm gonna be very upset...
It's not just heritage, the Red Thirst and Black Rage are tools that hone the killing edge of the Blood Angel's. Seth is saying that it is through their struggle, the same which their gene father struggled with, is key to the success of their chapter. Nothing great ever comes without struggle.
The flaws are one of the only reasons Baal is still alive, it’s reasonable to assume the emperor’s work has reason to it.
@@sackofpeas2470 except weren't those flaws imparted by Chaos?
I understand the reasoning of Seth, he believes the new marines don’t have the same experience as they do and hence can’t relate to their kin but their gene father was doing his best to try and save his sons from the defect and would agree with guilliman.
Sinister but the extra organs to improve upon the gene seed? Even the Emperor’s Children Primarchs has to be told “well the Emperor’s work is perfect, so allow me to at least see if there is something I can do, if not then I will stop after all it is a long road to Perfection.”
@@BUSSTISEBOOST I believe that the emperor had the primaris marines project started during the great crusade as many of them remember the crusades so I still think its the emperors work and I don't believe its his finest, his finest creations were the primarchs.
Sinister I never said it wasn’t the best the Emperor could do, however he did make the Legionaries To conquer the galaxy and were his long term solution for it rather than the Thunder Warriors. Now the Adeptus Custodes were far better than the Legions however for being better it always takes longer to harvest the geneseed of them and for implantation and what not, yet the Better Primaris are really only limited due to them only being issued to have Boltguns, yet they have seemingly no flaws (yes Red Thirst and wulfen are there) in terms of perhaps their flaw they could have (and that I personally would like to see) is that they are better but at the cost of expiring far quicker than their “normal” counterparts, say a few hundred years for Primaris compared to the few Thousand for the Adeptus (normal marines). As for the Primaris remembering the great crusade, which book? I know in the Dark Imperium novel Felix talked about being on his home planet training to be an Astartes before Crawl picked him and several others up several years after the Heresy when the Scouring was taking place.
Sanguinius wouldn’t want his sons with any defect he thinks he has passed on. He was always conscious of sensor for any mutation, so I think he would not object to what Guilliman has done IMO
Sanguinius would not want the flaws passed on, true. However, so many of the Chapters and even those within the Blood Angels see it more as a gift then curse. Now it is degenerating at a very slow rate. Let’s face it, you can’t fix something a demon gives you.
Though I’m shocked how calm all the sons of the Angel are to an HumN CentiPad experimenting on the flesh of their father.
Yea its rather debatable now.... I mean if you are a father with gen flaws.... You don't want your son to have it. But what if you son accept it as a gift..... What you will do.... Which answer is right well...... None can say really 😂 since both answer have good things and bad things....
Especially Guilliman of all his brothers. Horus, and maybe Lorgar, were the only ones he could’ve trusted if they hadn’t fallen. All others would have slipped. The Lion would had used it to black mail or even censure Sanguinius. But Guilliman, he would not stop brow beating Sanguinius for keeping such a flaw with his self righteous ways.
@@NewGuy2534 That is a reach. Where do you see that in the Horus Heresy literature to suggest Guilliman would feel that way?
Sanguinius would be happy to have the flaw gone... the flaw really caused him a lot of pain and anxiety so this would have been a welcome change to him (maybe he would have done it differently but still not sure would object to his brother's decision).
"The Emperor designed the flaw to be part of the Blood Angels" I just
think it was a mistake, the Emperor never claims to be perfect and he
didn't exactly have a lot of time to design the space marines since he
was also dealing with the reunification wars at the time. Like the
Thunder Warriors the space marines were designed for a purpose, to be the driving force
for the great crusade.
The crusade had a time limit there was an Ork empire forming and he needed to destroy before it became too large
No. The Emperor designed the Blood Angels to be like the World Eaters: psychotic bloodthirsty warriors with no organization no honor. Sanguinius freed them from this, and changed their fate and freed them from the cruel task they had been created to do. Sanguinius saved them.
You have to admit how many battles have been won with death company though. Sometimes having walking glass cannon berserkers helps a lot more than tactility
It is also worth noting here that the red thirst and the black rage are two COMPLETELY different things, and as Dante stated, the primaris have not fallen to the black rage. He says nothing of the red thirst, and the thirst is what sanguinius wanted to cure, while I think Corbulo and Dante are more concerned with the black rage. This is why there are no death company primaris but they DO get the red thirst special rule. The red thirst is the flaw, not the black rage, and people conflate the two constantly it seems. While Gabriel makes a good point about Guilliman, things will most certainly change with the return of another loyalist primarch, which is why we need The Lion so badly.
Wish granted
@@raymondcarter1137 kinda, since this post we now have death company intercessors and Dante has gone primaris so....there's that
@@MalchazarZJ hey any movement forward is definitely exciting.
The lion can teleport anywhere with his sons.
And the lion has learned stealth and surprise attacks.
@@raymondcarter1137 Right? Who needs Corvus Corax anyway?
The red thirst may have been intended by the Emperor however the black rage is definitely not part of his plan.
With that in mind I can see Cawl removing the red thirst but the psychic-echo nature of the black rage would be impossible to cure.
"Interesting that he was right, that the flaw was a part of the blood angels, why I can not say..."
Intentional programming flaw. Same as the Thunder Warriors. The flaws were built in to be exploited when they were no longer needed. When the custodes were unleashed on them to cut them down and usher peace in with the abolishing of them for what they are - weapons to be melted down in peace times. Roboute making warriors without those built in flaws is directly subjugating humanity to these warriors. They are now no longer exaggerated human beings, but rather supreme biological machines primed to turn on humanity rather than serve - men of iron just in flesh.
That's a brilliant interpretation. Few look that deeply into the Emperor's intentions, looking only at their own present issues.
Though I understand the reasoning and Seth's feelings, but Guilliman's motivation seems to be only the strengthening of the Imperium. Yes some precious traditions may be lost, but what do they mean in the bigger picture? Space Marines where created as a weapon and shield for humanity. We all understand that the Emperor himself doesn't care about the means, only the goal. If Primarus are helping to protect the Imperium, then it worth it.
Funnily enough, even as a long standing Ultramarines player, I fall hard on the side of Seth in this instance. The echoes of the past are too loud to be ignored...
Every upload by you Rho is a blessing, even more so when it’s about my boys!!
Look on my works and weep, Fleshtearer
Be Guilliman>> Create codex Astartes and divide up the legions "because no single man should command the power of a legion ever again" Almost get in a second civil war with loyal brother Dorn over codex>> Quietly replace space marines with primaris marines more loyal to him then to their respective chapters
pretty much. can we just get the lion back already?
RG: No more Legions.
LR, RD & V: BULLSHIT!
RG: Oh, but my Ultramarine's get an exception and also, I've got super-super-soldiers by the hundreds of thousands all way more loyal to me than you. Sound cool?
LR, RD & V: (ABSOLOUTELY INCANDESCENT)
@@commissarlugh1040 The same Lion who was a tactical genius but had, by his own admission, ZERO social skills? That's not a good recipe for a leader.
@@jimh.1590 The Lion's flaw was purely in social settings, he has an inability to read others and their intentions. But he's still a great leader, he's absolutely as good a leader as Guilliman which he comprehensively proved during the Great Crusade and can just as easily inspire loyalty and respect.
@@BM-wf9uf No he's not, that's the point. He's an unparalleled tactical genius but has zero social graces. If you mean he's a great battle leader, sure. If you mean overall leader like a president, king or such, he'd be terrible. Think Trump but with a brain.
Devastation of Baal was amazing in my opinion!!!
Blood Angels are just a great chapter and have a great Primarch
@@jakewu8268 The Greatest*
..outside of my main man Vulken ofcourse lol
It almost made me want to start a BA army.
Jake Wu had a great primarch ...
Looking forward to reading it.
Seth strikes me as a true son Amit. I feel him meeting Gorillaman as doing nothing more than reinforcing his opinion. I wouldn't even put it past Seth to call the Primarch out to his face.
yes, I would not be surprised if girlyman would murder him for defying him.
Seth nails it. The primiras will replace all marines to protect the imperium and ensure they're on the right side when gulliman deals with ecclesiarchy
#sethknew
And every chapter will be Ultramarines in-body.
Sloppy work GW.
I wonder what gulliman requested when he asked for a legion strength force to be created in secret? Why not tell the chapter masters? Why not just create the tec to upgrade marines and hand it to the chapters to reinforce themselves?
@@jamesbaddeley6363 Well hes been brought up to speed on the time hes missed and given how much corruption and hidden enemies have been fought hes probably reluctant to provide any benefits to groups he doesn't know if he can trust and went with his very 'logical' approach instead of giving them the tech provide people who are already loyal and can keep an eye out for any traitor like conduct. Worst case scenario he finds he was right in his speculation if wrong he now knows who is loyal, traitorous or on the fence.
Seth missed the point.
Again.
He truly will be the spiritual liege
Excellent and even vocals covering one of the most interesting subjects from the new lore.
Guilliman is the Emperor in all but name, this is true. However Guilliman never wanted the burden and though he uses it, he is uncomfortable in this station. Where Sanguinius to return, Guilliman would gladly give the title to him, for he believes that of all the Primarchs, Sanguinius truly is the one who is more like the Emperor. Think on that.
Of the remaining loyalist Primarchs, Guilliman has never believed that they have the qualities a leader of all mankind should have and of the remaining Primarchs, only the Lion would truly doubt Guilliman to have the right intentions for the Imperium.
juan jacobo yarce velez
I agree to a point, it has to be said that Malcador the Sigillite was greatly concerned that Guilliman would attempt a sort of coup against the emperor, and that he would seize power in a more roundabout way, but the events of Imperium Secundus put those fears at ease for a while
He may say that he doesn't want to be Emperor but he surely acts like it
More like the emperor? You mean manipulative, cold sociopath?
Or more like the Emperor Should have been?
Who better to rule in his father's absence, Dorn is hiding out, Lionel is passed out drunk in the Rock, Russ is balls deep in the eye of terror, Corvus is busy being Emo, Kahn is dicking about in the web way, and Vulkan (who'd probably be the most suited to rule, with girly man as a military advisor) is off pretending to be dead for some reason.
I don't think he would the hirus heresy novel where he creates rhe second imperium, he only asks Sanguinius due to the fact lion would never let him.
Papa Smurf is doing the best he can right now. He doesn't mean to insult any of his brothers or their chapters. He thinking about what's coming and what he needs in the present. He can not expect any help, he has to act now.
Just the implication that Guilliman could be, in anyway, doing something heretical or treasonous..... I'm surprised the heretic Ward has not emerged in his greater daemon form to have his vengeance.
Hey really love the channel. Have you considered narrating entire books from the black library? Maybe as a monthly patreon reward or such. I love your narrations, they really bring the lore to life, and having an entire book read by you would be awesome!
As a devoted son of the Ultramarine my primarch would never dream of dethroning his father The Emperor
Man how in the warp have I not heard of this channel before? Well, no matter, I'm subscribed now.
It’s the best lad, the wolf lad, back with that good lore
Everything Seth said to Dante Here i told all my 40k friends. He is right, the flaws make the legions special
General Coma but they’re also replacing the old space marines. Even the new dreadnaught KILLS its host... sounds very chaosy if you as me.
@@Commodore22345 nah man... you gota think big picture.
Each legion was a specialized combat unit. To be a succesful empire, you need different military divisions with different specialities...
Airforce, navy, armored etc. Etc.
@@Commodore22345 regular troops dont stand much of a chance against most of the enemies faced...
We both know the empire wouldnt have ever worked without the marines...
@@Commodore22345 actually even tho most of the wars have been fought by the regular troops. The major ones and even in most of the lore it is won by the Space marines and your thing about each chapter not needing its own special way of fighting isn't fully true technically space marines would be the term you use for special forces groups like Delta teams are special forces same with us Army ranger's or the British Royal Marines but all fight and operate differently. Another one to show is the SS from ww2 which is also counted as an elite/special forces group but was used as line breakers.
@@Commodore22345 ok but some Space Marine chapters are better at fighting Chaos then others. Yes, I agree to allow heretical beliefs and teachings are bad for them. But it does affect the military power they have and you can't expect everyone to just follow the new marines. And honestly, its PaPa smurf trying to fix a mistake that he knows he made. And taking away the individual combat styles of the chapters makes no sense. It's like would you make all the legions the same? No, it is the different ways of fighting that allow them to be able to combat forces correctly. And saying you can't compare real life to 40k you technically can just because everything isn't a 1 to 1 exact thing you can still see how it is similar.
Guilliman is many steps from being Emperor. Emperor didn't intend for his Primarch children to rule the Imperium. As such, there will be MANY steps between Guilliman being Emperor unless he stages a civil war... Good break down. Thank you!!
you think, there is no such steps between them. guilliman could merely throw the Emperor down from his throne and take his place. who says he did not STEAL the sword from his very hands.
@@KossolaxtheForesworn .Heresy identified. Simple explanation: Never said he couldn't try. Just that they were not intended. Traitor
Seth is awesome calling it for what it is.
Nice my 40k Are is the Flesh Terrors and I don't use any new marines. Only Classic marines to keep true to the fluff.
Same! Mine's almost entirely assault squads. LOL
The primaris also suffer from the black rage.
Dark Angels player, ensuring the purity of the Lion's sons isn't tainted by Guilliman's filth for my own army. Not a single Primaris marine or vehicle either.
Funny how it's only the Unforgiven and the Flesh Tearers that have any idea what's going on. Seth told Dante all this, and the Dark Angels nearly had a civil war on their hands, after they tried to "make their own primaris repent," if you know what I mean.
My Blood Angels army is primaris free, and will always be so.
Hit the comment section first, but hardly now why these primaris even exist. Tactical Squad 2, assault squad 2, sniper squad 2 ... it's tactically same squads that already existed.
Not gonna replace my 10.000+ point army, because GW makes replacement models for everything I already have in that army. Only reason people seem to buy them, is because they're OP in tournaments. Yeah, totally not boring to play against. -_-'
Anyhoo, let's hear what this is about.
Edit. Calling BS on this one, no way would someone that has been ruling a chapter for over 1200 years, be this stupid and gullible as Cmdr Dante is portrayed here!
A proud space marine to some. To me? A champion of Khorne in the making.
I'm literally getting Devastation of Baal this Saturday when my Audible credit shows up. Can't wait! Dante was a 5 star book for me.
My last audio credit got me nothing😥 spent it on a 40k audio but it didn't go in my library?
Seth is that one cousin that comes over on holidays and wreaks havoc on your house and is disrespectful but hes so endearing dante puts up with it.
I can see where GW is going with the story, but I just don't understand why we needed these Primaris Chad Marines. Don't get me wrong...I love Astartes, but they were already badass enough before GW gave them half an Immortis gland and some other ridiculous upgrades. I can totally see how regular Astartes feel about Primaris though. It's the equivalent of being a cop and having the feds show up to "help" you. Another example is being a modern day infantryman having a bunch of spec ops guys just show up out of nowhere and integrate into your platoon/company. You have no idea if they have a secret mission, and they're not very interested in interacting with you. Guilliman is definitely setting up failsafes.
Modern day.
Oldschool gamers who are howling at the moon bout tge abuzive practices vs the cazual fortnite crowd
Yeah but you have to think about it from the models perspective as well right. I mean, people have been complaining about the scale of marines for decades. These giant 8ft tall monsters are the same damn height as the imperial guardsmen on the table.
So they decide to make some big marines for the table, but if they just release them as normal marines thats a stick in the eye of everyone who bought the product before, not to mention you can never have the old marines and new marines in the same army without it looking totally wonky.
Now, they can have their cake and eat it too. Everyone who has space marines can continue to buy primaris without feeling like their old armies need to be tossed out, while the scale-bunnies are all happy that they get their big marines, and GW is happy cause they get to make a whole new range of models and reap our hard earned cash.
Given that, its logical that they would decide to go this route. I'm not saying they couldn't have done better, or make more internal consistencies, cause when you think about it the scale is still off cause Primaris are, on the table, as tall as regular marines are supposed to be, so true-scale Primaris would be even bigger. GW deff has a problem with gigantism, but ultimately I am glad they decided to move the damn story forward and if they feel like they need marines 2.0 to do that, then I'm happy to take them in exchange.
@@Socrates3141 Oh I love the models, but I just don't think they needed to make super space marines to justify upgrading them to Mark X power armour.
@@CrimsonUltrafox Yeah, but how to explain the massive difference in height would be a challenge. Not saying they couldn't have planned this better and started laying hints about this change some years ago, then it would all be this awesome massive plan. But they did what they did lol
I mean, considering how GW's changed over the last few years? I am hesitant to lob too much critique their way. I want them to keep doing what they are doing, improve if possible but damn we were out in the cold before.
@@Socrates3141 Tabletop doesn't need some lore reason to scale up the marines. They could have just said they were scaling the models properly now. That and they can say that they were upgraded with new wargear. People still would have bought the new models anyways and liked them more for it. Lore wise, aren't regular Astartes like 2 and half meters tall on average? Do they really need to be bigger than that? It starts getting a bit silly when they're over 9 feet tall. Primaris just add another tier of superhuman to the Imperium that we really didn't need. Like why do we need super space marines? Doesn't that just make the old ones completely obsolete?
I try not to be hypercritical of GW because they have done a lot of good things in the recent years. However, I just think that from a story perspective that space marines really didn't need a biological upgrade. But they're already here to stay so I guess we're just stuck with them. I play Eldar so it doesn't really affect me as much.
my co worker just got me into 40k and these videos have been a godsend iv gone through so many of them and with each one i become more and more enthralled with the series thank you rho
Wonder if they're gearing up towards Horus Heresy 2.0, either way I just like the lore grinding slowly along
50k in 5 years, calling it lmao
The Great Angel was seeking a cure before his fall. Sanguinius was trying to save his sons. He would want the cure more than any!
The "Children of the Omnissiah" track in the background works really well. It provides a great audio accompaniment that reflects the beauty and grandeur of the sons of Sanguinius.
When Guilliman thought the Imperium lost in the betrayal of Horus, he sought to salvage whatever he could into Imperium Secundus. He refused the seat of Emperor over that, insisting that Sanguinius take the position instead. Maybe Sanguinius discussed the secrets of his legion with Guilliman? I don't think Guilliman is trying to usurp the gene sons of his brother, but rather to save them.
As for Seth, if he believes so strongly about this, why doesn't he seek to speak with Guilliman about it? From what I know, Guilliman loved his brother Sanguinius, and thought very highly of him. Seth probably wouldn't get everything "his own way" with Guilliman, but I think he'd be pleasantly surprised.
Honestly wasn't really a Blood Angels fan before this, so I gave it and Dante a listen to see what the hubbub was about. What it did instead was make me a huge Flesh Tearers fan, and particularly of Gabriel Seth.
It has been stated that the Primaris Marines aren't fully cured of the Red Thirst. I think what might happen is the Blood Angels will have another confutation with Ka'Bandha. And during this he'll fully awaken the Thirst and the Rage within the Primaris Marines.
The primaris will be the only ones left standing with their minds intact.
Seth speaking truth to power here, the Astartes of old have died, and the culture of so many Legions is in danger of being wiped away by that of the Ultramarines.
I’m sorry, Seth we’re now only accepting arguments in the form of: theoretical....practical, thank you. Courage and honour
That was fucking great , I need more of this ! Blood angels lore always gets me excited
Seth forgets the history of his own Primarch. Sanguinius was willing to become a daemon Prince of Khorne to cure his sons of the red thirst.
viewernewest source? The is news to me
The Horus Heresy book “Fear to Tread”
Monkegh Thirtyfour the lexicanum leads to a different telling that suggest saniunius resisted and the Apothecary Melos sacrificing himself in sanguinius place
Also I don’t think that would have turned him only possessed him like we see with fulgrim
Gabriel M. The temptation was there.
Just shows as honorable and trustworthy Seth is he is far from perfect
What is interesting is that it all plays on the view the big E held when he made the Space Marines. He made them to be obsolete. Neither they, nor their Gene Seed was intended to operate for ten thousand years. That's why it's been breaking down in nearly every chapter. Space Marines were intended to die out when no longer needed. You don't keep a bunch of bored Trans-Humans about with nothing to do. It causes problems. The Primaris were supposedly accepted by the Big E as a re-envisioning of his idea but with the actual current state and future state of the Imperium in mind. They have a clock ticking as well but if you really think about it, the Legion Marines were technically (by writing) on par with the Primaris. Gene-Seed that was so clean it was compatible with so many humans that you could produce Space Marines by the Hundred-Thousand. As time wore on the compatibility waned and it became harder and harder to make new space marines. The Primaris are massed produced at Legion levels again. So it resets the clock. I don't think Papa Smurf is out for himself, though, arguably, the Imperium needs a Living Leader that can walk among them. That's Papa Smurf. Let the big E hold the Emperor slot and let Papa Smurf run things. He is, after all, the Emperor's crafted Administrator among his Primarchs. Papa Smurf was designed to be a ruler and administrator. Others had other purposes.
YES!!!!! I love this character and I think people don't cover him enough
Remember there is the law of unintended consequences who really knows what the emperor intended,.
Walp. This convinced me to finally read devastation of Baal. I understand where gabriel is coming from but he couldnt be more mistaken.
It's a fantastic book. I highly recommend it and it's prelude audio drama "Hunger"
Nassir Amit is in most of the encyclopedias under BAMF, also Gabriel Seth is my Spirit Animal
I love how so many comments bash gabriel seth and yet in the books he so cool, have to wonder if this is this first people have heard of him
"There is a permanence in art, not found in life.."
Seth is such a fucking cool guy.
I wonder what’s going to happen if and when Russ returns how’s he going to feel about this.
Russ probably shouldn't have run away to the Eye and let the Imperium degenerate to the state that it has. If the Executioner had been present, I'm certain a number of events wouldn't have occurred that got us to where we are.
Russ is going to punch Guilliman in the face.
@@vaiyt no way. He will punch someone in the face but it wont be RG.
@@vaiyt "Boohoo Girlyman bad Primaris lame" Shut the hell up. They both fight with honor, you salty 40k-Genwunner.
But now Primaris has started falling to the curse, and are being placed in Death Companies them selves.
I would like to see more from chapter's of the 13th dark founding and 21st cursed founding chapters on the primaris marines.
As well as the Iron hands Raven guard and the Space Wolves.
Black dragon primarius would be fun
@@hughsmith7504 Not really, because primaris black dragons would not have those badass baraka claws.
I just finished reading the book and, while I understand Seth's point of view, I have to side with Dante on the issue of the Primaris Marines.
It's true, the Red Thirst and the Black Rage have defined the Blood Angels and their successor chapters for melinnia. They've lived with it for so long, that the idea that there is a way to mitigate the thirst is inconceivable, if not abhorrent. They no nothing else. It's like someone who has had a piece of glass stuck in his foot for years, learned to live with the pain, and rejects the offer to have it removed because he doesn't know how to live without the pain.
As you mentioned, Rho, Dante would be steeped in the writings of Sanguinias. This is what the Great Angel would have wanted: it was just delivered by Guilliman and Cawl instead.
I can see where he's coming from but it sounds really arrogant on his part. They spend their whole lives struggling to keep the rage and thirst in check, Sanginius himself would do almost anything to cure it and the moment someone comes with a solution he turns it away? What is he mad that a Blood Angel didn't figure out the solution?
I take it more in the way that he sees the "flaw" not as something wrong with them, but what makes a Son of Sanguinius stand apart from the other Astartes. The Flesh Tearers are renowned for their brutality, while also keeping themselves in check when always on the edge of the Black Rage. Even for less aggressive successors/the main BA's, their Red Thirst is something that gives them an extra boost of energy/killing focus.
So it's seen as something that shouldn't be fixed, as the annals of the Blood Angel's are filled with stories of heroes who performed awe-inspiring acts while driven forward by the Red Thirst and those who succumb to the Black Rage are sent to die in times of great need of the chapter.
The struggle is what puts them apart. It's like the greatest athletes in the world, most didn't come from a privileged existence, but rather struggled day in and day out to rise to the top. So that struggle is intrinsically connected to how they operate at the highest levels.
@@sackofpeas2470
Are you kidding me?
There are more than enough occasions where Flesh Tearers behaved like absolute mad lads and killed not only fellow Astartes, but IGs, Sisters of Battle and Civillians.
@@CedricBassman Welcome to 40k.
@@CedricBassman "There are more than enough occasions where Flesh Tearers behaved like absolute mad lads and killed not only fellow Astartes, but IGs, Sisters of Battle and Civillians."
Meanwhile, over some random planet.
"Lord Inquisitor, we've found a heretic on this world."
"Exterminatus. If there's one, then the whole world is probably traitor."
And millions of innocents died a pointless death. As Ana-Maria said, welcome to the grim darkness of the 41st Millennium.
@coinny22 The point is, Flesh Tearers killing their allies is no different to an inquisitor killing countless innocents over a single heretic, something that many of the more zealous inquisitors have no problem doing. It has nothing to do with Seth being right (which he is), it's just a response to the implication that the Flesh Tearers are the only group in the Imperium who go out murdering their fellow Imperial citizens.
Based on Fear to Tread, where Sanguinius says that only a few of his sons seem to fall to the thirst though he says he cannot be sure how many die in battle with it raging through them. Cawl drew from stock of pure primarch DNA for his Primaris project. Since he pulled it from the source the Black Rage would not be present as that was a psychic imprint on his living sons during the Horus Heresy (which all successor chapters drew from) , then be drawing from the pure stick there should be no Black Rage. So I would say Cawl has more or less restored the gene seed to the times of the Legion, where the flaw was rarer and the Black Rage does not exist.
If the flaws in some are more a result of sympathetic ties due to warp magic used to make the Primachs, then it somewhat bypasses repairs to the DNA.
@@asaenvolk Fair point. The Warp works in mysterious ways. Though I guess I always interpreted the Black Rage as a scar on the members of the Legion at the moment of Sanguinius' death. Through their lineage did the Black Rage continue. But that is just my interpretation
@@RockerDanM Well it is, so the Black Rage would be the result of a psychic phenomenon (ie it would require an emotional tie of some sort to spread)
I've been reading GW/BL books for about 20 years. I didn't realize until DoB that the BA chapters went so far as human consumption. I fail on my part, but DoB is a fantastic read.
20 years before you realised sons of Sanguinius are vampires?
Ribbitgoesthedog Lastnamehereyeah I’m dumb. I knew they drank blood. I didn’t know they killed and drank humans.
Seth is right. That is why Seth is fucking great. He is not scared to tell the others his side. GO SETH.
I frankly agree with Seth here, something about the Primaris always rubbed me the wrong way. Guilliman’s actions while necessary, will cause major shifts within the Chapters. And not to mention my major fear.
Think back to every time someone other than the Emperor Himself has tried to work with the Geneseed of the Marines. We have the entire Cursed Founding Chapters as a result, Corax’s attempt at making stronger marines was easily sabotaged and resulted in horrid monstrosities which haunted him for the rest of his days. I say the same thing will happen with Primaris, in time. It’s a major portion of my personal Chapter’s story, they fear that these, Primaris Marines, now replacing the older Marines, have some hidden flaw, for how could any mortal compare to the Emperor’s own Work. Not to mention, I completely agree that Primaris Marines are just Ultramarines with different colors. There’s nothing unique to them, when I started 40k I almost fell in with the Primaris, but their lack of an identity, their monotone abilities, their total lack of variety just kept taking me away from them, their Lore was the nail on the coffin.
I always point to this one action of Guilliman to demonstrate his arrogance. Before Guilliman came back, Cawl was Just another Archmagos, but now? Guilliman, an Imperial Figure, who knows very little of how the Adeptus Mechanicus works, named Cawl Fabricator General of Mars. A Schism that almost tore Mars apart was waged for this exact fear! And Guilliman just trampled over the Machine Cults treatises and Culture to put his personal butt Buddy as the head of the Faction. That alone made me despise Guilliman, not only was he messing with the Marines, something which he has some sliver of a claim to do being a Primarch, but he messed with the Adeptus Mechanicus, the one Faction that is separatefrom the Imperium and not ruled by its leaders as dictated BY THE EMPEROR HIMSELF when he joined forces with them.
Civil War is coming, I’m certain
The Emperor is not the only person who worked on the Primarch/Space Marine project, one person who helped him with the work was Belisarius Cawl.
Outside of the fact the GDubs gets to make money selling new units, if you look at the situation the empire is in they need any bit of help they can get AND it progressed the story while adding new strength & doubt at the same time which increases dramatic tension........
The whole thing is actually a rather well planned move for the game and the story as the Primaris are just a representation of what is actually being introduced:
innovation, change, progress, whatever you want to call it this is good for Warhammer 40,000.
@@robdeskrd Yes.... But the Primaris marines.
Are all the fucking same.
EVERY faction has unique characteristics for each army.
Even the fucking Orks.
But Primaris Marines.
Are the same.
There is no unique difference between them all.
You can paint em different.
But they all owe Guilliman allegiance and are mind numbingly boring and samey.
Which is lore and gaming cancer.
Reinforcements ARE nice.
But the rule of cool is what matters.
And they ain't cool.
At all.
It feels like Matt ward has infected EVERY space marines Chapter to become Ultramarines.
Which are my most hated Space Marines.
Due to their boring, well, everything, they actually made me hate space marines.
Then I got Salamanders, Lamenters, and Doom Eagles.
Which are now becoming Ultramarines.
Great.
Because we needed more fuckin' Ultramarines.
Not like they have a Primarch.
Or are the most added chapter in everything.
Or the most boring, comporable to the white Scars, who are at least unique.
"even if you're not a fan of the Blood Angels". I smell Heresy.
And with 9th edition Seth is right. Primaris made the original marines obsolete and just vanilla smurfs.
Sanguinius himself wanted to purge his sons of the rage. That is very clear in the Horus Heresy. I think Sanguinius would have approved.
@Vfor Vriendetta The Emperor probably knew I think. But who knows if the Astartes were even supposed to last forever. like the Thunder Warriors they may have been disposable after their task was done. Maybe it didn't matter if they had the red thirst. They weren't going to be around forever.
@Vfor Vriendetta It is a good point. However that decision was made 10,000 years ago. The Emperor could have changed his mind. Also he wasn't stuck on the Golden Throne then. And finally, Bobby G. consulted with the Emperor before the Primaris were unleashed. I'm pretty sure that the stamp of approval was given. And based on the Emperor's history I do not see him turning down a weapon like the Primaris at all.
The Rage and the Thirst shapes our character. What are we without? Seth is right!
Yeti MindTricks
He isn’t.
And neither are you.
They STILL have the Red Thirst. They don’t have Black Rage - yet.
@@kelman727 i trust him more than a guy named Roboute
You will not be forgotten Sentor Jool 😭
Seth and whoever agrees with him should go the way of the Thunder Warriors the way the Emperor intended.
You mean the way Girlyman intented
@Sanguinius MY LORD ! MY FATHER!!!! MY BLOOD REEE STAR! TELLS US WHAT YOU MOST DESIRE
@@oualdo94 no, the way the Emperor intended
Sean Cook Come get us then.
you absolute fucking heretic
Always happy to see Gabriel
Perhaps Seth fears the influence of the Ward!?
don't we all?
Honestly.... Primaris marines just make ALL the space marines in my opinion the same.
Which is fuckin' boring on table top and lore.
Especially considering how fuckin' hated the Ultramares have been for years.
Then they did this.
Fuckin' damnit.
It just....
Sucks.
Tip of that they look boring as shit.
If the blood angels are replaced by primaris and like the wolves as well will lose most if not all of their personality. At least the ither chapters have a personality that isnt related to their gene flaw
@@randomlygeneratedname tbh, the Blood Angels Primaris could be interesting for an in lore debate between the Blood Angels and their chapters about weather or not they want to keep their flaws or if their happy with them being easier to keep in check.
Primaris still seem to have the flaws, they just seem to have more self control.
RG is a clone of Horus made by Fabius and Ahriman. Abbadon got wind of it and got so enraged that the rift appeared. The clone thinks he is RG. That is the truth. I know , I was there on the Vengeful Spirit when Abbadon received the message.
I was very prepared to disregard Gabriel's attitude, but after listening to his words, he's right. Whether or not Guilliman is doing it intentionally, or doing it maliciously, he is sterilizing the Astartes into uniformity, losing their individuality as chapters to the raw power upgrade of the Primaris, even without some ominous threat of their corruption, it is a significant blow to quality of the Legios, and to their heritages.
Even so, a lot of stuff that the Emperor (seemingly) didn't intend happened, and curing the gene seed of a bunch of very broken super soldier man-children demigods seems like an overall plus for the Imperium.
My boi Seth with that mic drop. Being all like: "yo nigga. Fuck ya shit."
Seth sounds like potential turncoat chaos heretic due to misplaced/displaced pride. Dante should've purged him. Lol
Black Templars, Seth and those that agree with him should go by the way of the Thunder Warriors.
RenegadeParagon Black Templar’s? You can’t be serious, not a single black Templar has ever fallen to Chaos. One of the few chapters that can say that
@@gabrielm.942 They reject the Avenging Son's gift and just like the Thunder Warriors, they rage on with barbaric rage and bloodlust that has no place in the grand vision of the Emperor. The God Emepror of Mankind has done it before, his will is absolute!!!
RenegadeParagon what?
@@firstcaptainvaleriusrensor463 Ultrasmurf, by the sounds of things. Only one kind of person can honestly think Guilliman is anything other than the butt of all jokes.
Seth certainly gave me something to think about.
for my thoughts, the flaws in each chapter were deliberate, the wolves thought the wolfen was removed from their primaris, until it turned out it wasn't, with much screaming and bolter fire. As for primaris the cynic in me knows its just an upgrade by GW to give a 40yo model a fresh look, but I think the lore around them is quite interesting, as the characters in the books copy the players own conversations, with gamers using characters comments to support their arguments, life and art imitating each other very interesting times in 40k
I actually really like the blood angels. I just wish they would have done more books about them for the Horus Heresy. Fear to Tread was awesome, but it would be cool to see more of Sanguinius and his sons owning a couple more daemons.
Lord amit would be proud
the first chapter master of flesh tearer Nasir Amit basically loyalist kharn and most honest man in imperium history as he stay true to his word even facing a primarch fist also he somehow lived to 2000 years old.
If Lion el'Johnson returns, he is gonna start a purge?
No he's gonna sleep again seeing how retarded his sons and the Imperium has become.
He'll just sit in a dark room playing with his sword. The most relatable primarch.
@@tauronicodemus362 He'd need to get it back from Cypher.
Seth questions the son of the emperor? HEARESEY!!
Hi mate, again
I wanted to send you this through email but cant find one.
Anyhow, if I am allowed, I would suggest for you to make longer videos covering some major battles (for instance Destruction of Ball etc). Following the success of videos made by Arch Warhammer or Luetin about the Emperor or videos about orc invasion of Armagedon or Siege of Vraks kindly check them out so you can improve.
This might sound like "do what they are doing" and ppl are reluctant to copy others, but audience responded amazingly well on these videos and your narration is stupendous! I would really like to see longer videos concerning major battles (possibly against Tyranids) with your narration. If you compare videos and views on those videos of aforementioned topic and content creators you can see that doing something like that can help you channel to grow very well.
Hope you will see this as helpful comment since I do enoy ur content and want to see your channel getting bigger since u deserve it.
Cheers buddy
Agree.
I would watch em for sure.
I am a fan of WH40K for about 2 years,the lore aspect mostly and barely started understanding the whole picture of the universe.
It took me 2 years to cover the basics...but i know very little about specific events/battles besides the horus heresy.
Dante and the devastation of Bale are so must reads