Zain vs Leffen - Swiss Pools: Round 5 Melee Singles - Smash Summit 9 | Marth vs Fox
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- Опубликовано: 3 окт 2024
- GG Zain (Marth) vs TSM Leffen (Fox) - Melee Singles Pool 1 Round 5 - Smash Summit 9
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#Zain #Leffen #Summit
Zain handing out existential crises to all these Foxes.
It's glorious! Crush 20XX once and for all!
True
I like how he never edge guards zain. Like most of Mangos wins on zain come from a lot of well timed edge guards or down smashes at ledge.
@@rekt_yer_nan_darding_5788 - You mean what they call the "Marth killer"? Yeah. I think he's trying to "ledge trap" more, but people say that doesn't exist in Melee. I think he should bait Zain out with lasers now, especially if he's going to keep taking him to Dreamland.
@@Pslamist What do you mean by ledge trapping? You could punish people going to ledge and getting off of ledge in melee. E.g. in some of Leffen's edgeguarding attempts this set, he jumps and hops back to stage, trying to catch Zain's up-b end lag with a dsmash or ftilt but it doesn't work because Zain sweetspots the ledge. Instead he should have continued to fall backwards and grab the ledge right before Zain does after Zain's up-b. Mang0 does that a lot vs Marth but Leffen says he's scared of doing those types of edge guards vs Marth in tourney.
"There's no Marth that will ever suck at the Fox match-up unless their name is Dajuan, Moon, or PewPewU." Thats basically all the Marths that aren't Zain or M2K.
pewpewu isn't bad vs fox at all tho
Edit: also spud and 4est are super good at it. not only m2k and zain
What about Rishi tho
@@westong6819 he said rishi as well
I think he just forgot him but Forrest is dope and upset iBDW recently
@@fiberjack645 According to Leffen he is. I know Spud is pretty sick, never seen 4est.
leffen loses, gives up, gets on the mic, "yo dajuan, moon, pewpewu are all bad"
That's basically all Marth mains minus Zain and m2k.
Fishee Fish you’re copying mrbee’s comment.
He's kind of an ass and the fact that no one shut him up for saying this dumb shit shows how much people are pussies. Like this dudes being a dick cuz he lost and isn't as good as Zain. That's really what it is.
Fishee Fish No there is spud,jakenshaken,Forrest is super good against fox.
@@horizon1132 Spud, Jakenshaken, Forrest, KorDorIn, etc are all good against fox! PewPewU did get better recently too (:
Zain has evolved so much that he currently have 6-0 Leffen in the last 2 sets.......
I'm calling it this year leffen wont play zain more
@Quasi GeN hope not
Now it’s 9-0
Fox suffers from netplay delay much more than marth. Leffen and other euros aren't even entering the tournaments. Leffen will destroy zain irl
@@JordanMSeverns huh he meant the Shiek vs Zain lol.
Also , Leffen said this already, HE GAVE UP ON FOX VS MARTH and will now go only Shiek vs Zain's Fox. So yeah ............
Gets absolutely pummeled, gets on the mic and proceeds to shittalk other lesser Marth players
Yea I noticed that, as soon as his status was threatened by that beatdown he took he immediately started criticizing lesser players instead of talking about the match
@Caleb he did both. Shit talk and talk about the matchup. He’s right though. He has to play perfectly and still have it be last hit.
Leffen admitted zain was a beast at the match up and hes amazing
Lmao all the foxes congregating around Leff as he preaches about Fox/Marth
watching foxes getting 3-0'd gives me life
Zain, the fox killer.
COBHCSLAYER the spacie slayer
No wonder Big Leff doesn’t want Sora in Smash, they are completely opposite people
Sora: “My friends are my power!”
Leffen: “My Anger is Mine!” I mean he finally did win a Ult event when Mr.R pissed him off so much with Yink that he went on a Twitter rant.
In all seriousness, I never liked how the online community talks about matchups. They take phrases like”Marth-Fox is 60-40” and “Puff-Fox is a lot closer than 40-60” as whiny blasphemy, and just regurgitate the same passive aggressive snarky memes. It really does stifle valuable discussion, and the people making those comments are making a lot of unfair assumptions about the person who claims such things.
The Smash community, including the Pros, pull MU numbers completely out of their ass.
Zain is actually just better than most players lol. It's not the MU, Marth is one of the most played characters with Fox and no Marth has made the MU looked this good for Marth. Leffen is NOT peak Fox. Not even close. Zain actually is close to peak Marth.
That's the difference!
@@jebril That is kind of similair to what Big Leff said near the end. He feels that Zain is incredible at the matchup and has optimized it a ridiculous amount. Leffen and IDBW just feel like they need to play damn near pitch perfectly in order to win, which is a sign of a unfavorable match ups, and that is okay since Fox is not good at everything
@@theimpersonator7086 The problem isn't the MU though. The problem is both those players are making more mistakes and not optimizing their character the way Zain is.
They are not going to continue optimizing if they don’t feel the matchup it worth it, and not for a lack of trying. Leffen may be many things, but few people can match his grind. IDBW is a part of a Fox think tank, and practices against Zain a lot. They just feel like Fox has to be played damn near perfectly in order to win, which is not consistent or signs of a good matchup. Zain also can adapt to their adaptations seeing how good his work ethic is.
Really, I don’t see the controversy. Modern Foxes are just taking the route that a lot of other Melee top players do. Mang0 and Plup have a Fox for Hbox, Armada had a Fox for Leffen and Hbox, Axe has a million secondaries that he can pull from.
People complained about hbox with puff now it’s zain with marth
eric flores yeah I think that boils down to: the moment someone becomes better than everyone else they blame his character. Zain outskills the (emotionally unstable) fox mains in a matchup that is capable of going either way. Like, fox-puff can totally also go either way. It just comes down to which player plays better in a given set.
It comes down to whoever is beating up everybody’s favorite character fox
@@barbarictearemedy No Leffen was the one complaining the loudest both times. The dude is so annoying and the way he shit talks everyone for no reason its just rude. I knew him before he was a top player and he was still basically the same asshole he is now. Dude is just an ass. Who goes on mic after losing and says all these people are bad and it's not my fault I just got demolished?
And the chat was screaming check leffens twitter
Thats what they always say when he gets his ass beat and they're always right. There is always a salty tweet. lol
Basically a combo showcase lmao
Leffen out here crying until his tear ducts dry up
I'm glad Mango said it, Fox mains are babies. Play one match up thats arguably even and it's nothing but water works. Call the wambulance.
Clifford Samuels lol I like Mango but he’s not one to talk. Every time he loses he says it’s because he played bad or was drunk...
@@ginoaquino9901 everyone's got johns. I think really the only time Mang0 ever pulls them out is against HBox and leffen, probably because he can't stand losing to them. Oh and also against M2K back in the day, called him lame pretty much everytime he lost to him, but not so much the last few times he lost to him.
I always laugh when he says "well, I was drunk!" bitch, don't get drunk right before you face some of the best melee players in the world!
smol leff
My god take a look at the comments and realize that leffs salt is seeping trough the internet to reach us. Zain played like a beast, leff is just being leff, yall guys need to chill, we arent even in the knockout stage yet
Gines Pons leffen wasn’t even edge guarding zain he just gave up after the first combo. Watch a game where mango gets done like that and he will try to bring it back.
@No Name Fox is more common than Falco though, right?
Leffen can’t ever take an ass whooping like a man. For ONCE Fox isn’t a better match up and he’s having a meltdown. Zain has just become a BOSS
Yeah we should censor a player's thoughts on the game that they are an expert at. I get that he complains when he loses but he literally just makes claims about the game and people whine about his opinions. It's probably a self fulfilling prophetic mental cycle half the time, but basically nobody actual cares to listen and evaluate what he says.
What are you talking about? Leffen has always said that Fox Marth was a bad match up.
GlobusTheGreat and how often is Fox a winning matchup? He literally bitches about Fox- falco, Fox - puff and fox - Marth, then when he loses to a falcon or pika or another fox he’s just playing bad.
@No Name Because Mango obviously used Fox against Marth.
stealth XG not recently
Fox players will shinespike you every chance they get and still cry when they play one of their two even matchup in the game lmao
Its kinda just a fact though thats Marth beats Fox tho
@@Yvs8962 LMAOO “a fact”??!!!! you don’t know melee if u think Marth beats fox. It’s ok it sounds like u are a huge leffen fan believe me when i say not everything he says is true. Then again if u were introduced to melee when leffen won evo that was very recent and would make sense you are still fresh to this scene.
@@Guts1022 Ive been around for awhile, literally every metric you could possibly go by supports Marth beating Fox. Whether you go by set data, direct MU analysis, or top player sentiment, it heavily points to it being the case. Even the best player in the world WHO MAINS MARTH says Marth beats Fox, so no, me saying Marth wins this MU is not from blindly listening to what Leffen says. You coming to that conclusion tells me how little you actually know about the subject, and yet you’re trying to act like I’m ill-informed on the matter. Shits hilarious. You saying I’m wrong for thinking Marth beats Fox is also saying that Zain, and countless other top players are also wrong. But yeah, let me not listen to them, and the imperical data, and instead listen to a random youtube shitter, Fabulous The Boss 🤡🤡🤡
Also I actually don't really like Leffen at all. Only thing I like him for is Fox gameplay, but hes not even in my top 5 for favorite Fox players. So once again, spot on read by you 🥴👌
@@Guts1022 you know that the stats are nearly 9-1 in Marth's favor right?
imagine getting outplayed on your counterpick twice and blaming your character/mu.
Leffen is just so salty all the time, it's unreal. I kind of feel sorry for him, complaining so much can't be good for his mentality.
Leffen may be salty but at least he tries to constantly improve on his bad matchup against marth whichas IBDW ALWAYS bitches about Marth and he's never gotten better at it. Leffen at least has taken sets off Zain.
LOL imagine not understanding how much Marth shits on spacies.
@@gomezfreshh9897 IBDW did better than leffen though?
@@RamsayBolton13 imagine crying about not winning every matchup easily
@@djhooker8782 but has IBDW taken a set off Zain? No he hasn't lol. IBDW hasn't even beaten M2K's marth, unlike Leffen who has taken sets off Zain and M2K's marth multiple times
I feel like what Leffen is saying is very reasonable, but I also do feel like he defeats himself sometimes. Zain is a beast but Leffen is still the best fox
same thing happened with cody. The premise that marth beats fox is probably true but their mentality dooms the matchup even more and their tone is so bitchy that everyone disagrees with them anyway.
Adriel Cannon I’ve watched every set live and I would not describe their tone as bitchy tbh. Crestfallen fits pretty well imo.
@@rat4992 Most people perceive it as bitchy just because they don't really understand the game and can't evaluate their claims on a non-superficial level, we just want to see the monkeys dance without criticizing the choreography, and when someone speaks up they're ruining our fun. I agree with you though, but there's not way to convince people that can't evaluate the actual merit of the argument that someone is not being bitchy. I'm probably being actually bitchy in this comment though.
Why they make leffen’s neck look like that
It's like a Camel's hump, but it contains salt instead of water.
Eternal Session all that salt stored where his voice comes out
LMAOOOOO.
To be fair to Leffen though, the energy to actually win twice on FD is not worth in a pools match lol.
Leffen got smash DI'd in this debate
Destiny had a 4% chance of winning in this debate
Leffen needs to watch summit 11
It always makes me laugh how much the fox players complain about MUs these days like Marth and Puff, when they have been using the best character in the game for 20 years. Perhaps then, soon they'll realize all us Falcon mains and the like have had to deal with Foxes and counter matchups this entire time. But suddenly! it only matters when you personally are affected by the best player in the world humiliating your play style. Fox-Marth aint got nothing to do with it son, Zain's positive attitude just destroys your negative one. It is your outlook Leffen that is costing you, and until you realize this you will not be the best player in the world. Not ever
gibbdude in the first decade of melee he had an argument but marth was never the consensus best character and in the second decade of melee which is more relevant spacies were always considered better
leave it to the falcon main to use whining to try to invalidate someone elses whining
@@BurritoGalaxy yes...that was...the point LOL
@gibbdude yeeeaaaaaaaaaaah no, sheik was
Keep crying Leff. Keep crying.
"like a moth to the flame" LOL
Leffen acts like this mu is impossible, when in reality zain is just that good
I agree I also think that Zain personally counters Leffen as a player lol starting with that smash and splash win
He admitted to that in this rant. He pointed out that Zain is basically the only Marth who doesn't get carried by his character but is actually "a beast". That is a direct quote. In the hands of a beastly player like Zain who is great at the game AND the matchup, he says the MU becomes almost unwinnable. He is not just whining, he is also giving mad props to Zain, more props than he has ever given to any other player ever.
@@wittyjester if he really respected zain as a player he would stop whining about the matchup and how it's "almost impossible"
@@TheNiceguy1156 or maybe people can make perfectly reasonable analysis without all you actual whiners having constant meltdowns over it instead of showing why it's wrong
@@TheNiceguy1156 Yeah, nobody can say their character loses to another character because it shows they don't respect the other player.
Oh wait, smashcut to Spark vs Ryobeat where they are great friends and both talking about how bad the matchup is for Peach after their pools set.
Marth is so sick.
Just wanted leffen to get to the mic and say 60:40 and leave
All these thumbnails are doing is making me think there will be a melee player dating sim
Leffens right how does someone win twice on FD? mangoBB
Guy was complaining so hard!! Lol
Imagine Leffen just picked up
Marth for the Marth mu. Fuck sheik.
These players with fragile ego find it more mentally comforting to blame the opponent’s character/the matchup than admit they got out-skilled. A slight advantage in a matchup between two top tier characters does not equate to the level of lopsidedness they’re trying to make it out to be. They just need to play better, and their negative mentalities generally prevent themselves from doing just that. The matchup is nowhere near purely unwinnable, like fox vs bowser or something. But they feel better about themselves when they whine as though that’s what it is like.
Very polite of you to say these players and not leffen
56mdk well, a few videos ago in the upload sequence, ibdw whined hardcore about the Fox Vs marth matchup, and then the next several videos in a row were full of the commentators and Leffen talking about it still.
Leffen literally calls Zain a beast in this video for optimizing Marth and getting good at the matchup. This is such a wack take to say when he's been consistent on his opinions since 2014 even when he was beating all the Marths.
@@bum-erdeneboldbaatar9586 Then clearly his "opinion" is not based on any sort of fact but just a pre-John. So if he wins or loses, he'll make himself seem like the good guy, not really taking accountability at all.
"Like a moth to the flame" lmfaaaooooo
8:32 What episode of the Scar and Toph show was this? I want to hear more of Zain's mentality :)
leffen kinda right tho, zain looking like a 6/10 version of himself here compared to this year
All these comments on how people saying how leffen doesn’t give zain any credit aren’t even watching the video, he even said that it’s alright for fox to have a bad match up
Leffen complaining and then people complaining about leffen complaining has been a huge part of the community since 2015 and I hope it never changes lol
Every once in a while i visit this set when i wanna watch a fox get absolutely demolished. Beautiful
It's absolutely hilarious that the second leff loses the set he's out on the mic talking about how bad the fox marth MU is. Bro, either play the set with dignity and learn it more... Or switch characters... The John's are getting really fucking old at this point.
He's always been like that. He's was one of the biggest "Puff is broken and the best character" propaganda pusher, outside of Armada, and told anyone who would listen to him that HBox was carried. Dude is a shitheel.
Leffen and ESAM are on the summit mic SO fucking much my goodness. Take is easy
Let's go Zain
Zain's punish game on Foxes is absolutely lethal
Zain > Any Fox Player
Super enjoying the Leffen/Vegeta comparison. #Leffen #PrinceOfAllSwedes
Fuck no. That’s a disgrace to vegeta. Leffen is nowhere near as badass as vegeta. Don’t even try
Leffen is the Sith of Smash. It is clear to me now
So no 20XX?
Man, the complaining and salt are real.
I hope PPMD Marth comes back and, alongside Zain, makes more Foxes quit their character (or they could just get good). I say this as a Falcon main; I have no sympathy for Fox mains.
please just shut up for once, just don’t talk ever anymore
@@loveliescrushing Salt
@@loveliescrushing So, what do you want me to do? Shut up once or don't talk again?
Directions unclear.
@@loveliescrushing Stay Free
@@LordVerdo yo sick, you're the 400th person to point out Leffen's "salt and complaints," is it warm and cozy inside of the echo chamber?
Such an amazing game. Such an amazing tournament. Such amazing commentators. Such amazing contenders. And then you have the youtube comments. Jesus christ, this is actually really sad to see.
@No Name people always have to hate something--the scene wouldn't exist if the spectator's "ideal" world actually existed (e-sports commentary with no cursing, diverging stories/bits, criticism, laughter; bland top players who are respectful, keep their thoughts to themselves, and just smile and wave) people complain just as much as Leffen, they just lack introspection and/or constant viewers to point these things out.
What’s sad to see is leffens’ johns
“I played so much better but I lost because the matchup is 60-40.”
This is why no one in the FGC takes smash seriously, it’s always something besides their own skill that causes them to lose. Play it, counter it, or get over it.
I would say that almost nobody at the highest skill in either game talks like this. Leffen is probably THE huge exception across both scenes (Ult and Melee)
Leffen talks like that cause he is just a salty guy. FGC doesn't take smash seriously because in the mind of the developpers, this is still a party game (a figting game too). The FGC then conclude quickly that smash isn't serious game. Also FGC are triggered by the massive popularity Smash has and the fact that most of the Smash scene doesn't interact with the FGC.
He is working on a Sheik counterpick though? Like Leffen is a saltlord that uses strong language but he always gives credit, adapts, and continues to put out good results but redditors never stop ragging on him over the most mundane shit.
You do realize that this game has been played and labbed out to a science for the past 15+ years. When people talk about bad match-ups its like the equivalent to having 2 people playing chess and 1 person automatically starts with 1 less pawn. To a layman youd say just play better, but at this level the 1 pawn means everything. I think its a bit disingenious to boil everything down to ego.
Easier said than done.
ive been doing crack cocaine but this is good
Zain reminds me of Ken
ZazzKing the GOAT Ken
Leffen should quit playing foxes then. 20xx is bunk and we all knew it.
I’ve said it’s 60-40 for 5 years but that’s not an excuse to not win as fox
Whoever drew the thumbnail is nice!
Where is M2K?
Looking at these comments. Christ. Everything Leffen said was correct. Regardless of whether you like him or not.
65-35? No way, if people are still arguing that fox goes even or potentially wins then that’s just false. It’s either 55:45 fox favored or marth favored or 50:50. Any extreme after that makes no sense given the mixed opinion.
No, you’re stupid old me.
Ahah "even if I win DL he has 2 matches on fd 😔" say that to the champ
Leffen rage quit. Damn what a beating.
Lets Go Zain. Let leff cry summore
Lefrieza
The year is 20BC...
I loved the trash talk, everyone getting upset to see the Marths get trashed, idk I found this hella entertaining.
Let's be real, Leffen is right about the match up. People just don't tend to listen to him because of how much he complains.
i'd say it's only quite as bad as he makes it out to be due to final destination being a counterpick that a fox will always have to play twice out of 5 sets, and even then it takes a lot of matchup knowledge and labbing to get it that bad on the marth player's part - zain is very good at the matchup and plays insane, which is why if you play fox and lose game one, you basically lost the set - you would then have to beat zain on both your counterpicks, and also win a round on FD. (probably not happening)
@@winsonzhu4427 I do think that is a big part of it. Regardless of stage, I do think Marth is favored heavily especially as time passes. Marth will only get better at their punish game and SDI drills and shine which are the main component to getting fox started. Fox having lots of opinions will obtain newer mixups yet nothing will ever be "true" in his favor.
@@chadkim4017 That's fair, and while it probably is possible to SDI Marth's stuff, Fox is so much more common, and has fewer things you have to know to SDI. Meanwhile, everyone knows most of what there is to know regarding fox's moves due to the 20XX movement vomiting highly technical foxes onto the competitive scene. As Marth players get better, the matchup will gradually feel worse.
So, he got whooped cause the matchup is bad right? Incredible, I literally lost all my remaining respect on the melee community.
@@guayasplm4496 I don't think anyone's denying Zain played very well - heck, FD in here never became a factor, so Leffen's more justifying not trying anymore at that point than his loss. Leffen got outplayed, plain and simple, not just because the matchup - Zain 3-0'd him on non FD stages -but the matchup is still fairly bad nonetheless. His way of explaining it is classic johning, tho, so I get that many are willing to shoot the message along with the messenger if the messenger is Leffen.
Zain really does make this mu look hard as fuck
why does the couch encourage leffens johns
juicy content
jesus, zain looks like he was having fun lmao, leffen got fuckin merked
Leffen is as SOUR as gummy worms! Can’t even look at his opponent after a loss but I’m sure if he won he be all chit chatty
Big leff is a big baby
match up is probably 60-40 if you win the first game. it's 70-30 if you have to win on FD twice.
10:00 - He said Fuck This Shit
hahahaha, Leffen: "excuses excuses excuses, bla bla bla, I'm so good, but Fox vs Marth is unfair" ... he is such a cry baby and talks bad about others. I've got no respect for him.
@UltimateShamrock he's just a troll. Please don't feed him.
@UCXDEteQJZk5igRVQqtp5XbQ alright he complains, he at least tries his best to improve on his bad matchups and at least has taken multiple sets off Zain and M2K's marth. IBDW bitches all the time about Marth and has not beaten Zain or M2k and has not improved on the marth matchup at all.
All that anger gives Leffen acne. He should calm down a bit.
When has he ever talked bad about Zain?
@@PKWinning07 Him shitting on every other Marth because they can't do all the things that Zain does. There's a reason why Zain is phenomenal. He's extremely technical and while he makes it look easy what he's doing is actually really fucking hard.
Despite this mu prolly not being great for fox Leffen def could have beat zain at least on dreamland
Why does Leffen look like a giraffe in the thumbnail?
FOX LOSE I BIG MAD BabyRage BabyRage
0:23 what amazing timing of watching this video the day after Valentines
What happens is that in my region I have no access to... no, wait, that's Ultimate stuff, sorry ;)
i clicked on this for the thumbnail
He said Dajuan, moon, pewpewu, and rishi suck at the fox matchup? Seems strange when you consider that he says “marth players are far worse against non spacie characters” in the 6-4 video. Is he saying marth players are bad in all matchups?
Hes saying Marth players dont work on being good at the Fox MU because its such an easy MU from their side that its rarely seen as a problem MU they need to practice and work on since Marth is just naturally gonna beat Fox most of the time whether they know the MU or not.
Fox has AN even match-up in Marth. FD should be good for Marth (tech foxes especially though can steal games) but Fox wins on every map and they go even on Pokémon
Fox mains will always be unhappy they don't get tourneys gift wrapped.
Youre smoking straight crack if you think Marth doesnt beat Fox. Its not 2013 bro, 20XX was a lie, Fox isnt the untouchable character he was overhyped as. Im honestly just gonna assume anyone nowadays who seriously thinks this MU is even has never played it as Fox with a player as good as or better than them.
@@Yvs8962hey, fox and marth is now considered to be a more even matchup and potentially winning for fox.
@@z-past1454 No it isnt, every Fox player says its losing, Zain says its losing for Fox. The only reason people think its been “proven” to be even or better is cuz ONE Fox player started being able to beat Zain after like 2 straight years of a dedicated grind to that specific MU and player. Just ignore all the other top Foxes that never come close, and ignore the fact that the historic head-to-head when played by Top 100 players favors Marth by over 2:1, and that Marth players upset Fox players 4x more often than vice versa.
One Fox player can finally beat Zain after years of him never losing the matchup. Thats enough proof for people who have no clue what theyre talking about to consider the MU even or FOX FAVORED 😂😂😂 its just drones who want to perpetually believe Fox is a perfect and infallible character. Same thing people have always said, they dont care about actual stats or how matchups realistically play out in practice.
Decent players imo
Laughs in Marth main
Leffen needs to watch M2k vs mango gf big house 4
11:42 aaaaaand skip!!!
To the next video I shall move on.
Leffen not even that salty. It's just not a good matchup
Just cry about the matchup instead of playing a different character, that will accomplish a lot.
Leffen is a quitter lol
Until ibdw
Leffen isn't even right about the matchup. Modern Fox players refuse to camp and that's why they are struggling so much against Marth and Puff too.
Rob what would fox accomplish by camping marth? Lol.
@No Name camping is generally performed near the edge of a stage or on a platform--two of the worst locations to be against a Marth, and especially Zain's Marth.
Bro you literally have no clue what youre talking about, that has to be the worst idea Ive ever heard and its hilarious you even for a second thought you had a better perspective of how to play the MU than top players
People still play this broken game lmao
Brian BM you still watch people play this broken game lmao
Yeah but the alternative is playing ultimate lol
Jason Kolbush didn’t watch just made a comment . Nice try pubes lol
Nat yea it’s better , you just suck at it lol
So many butt hurt melee fans that still think it’s a good game lol