How Will & Grace Beat Ellen's Gay Curse
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- Опубликовано: 25 авг 2024
- Following Ellen’s cancelation, many believed that any primetime show with a gay lead was cursed to fail. But not only did Will & Grace prove the critics wrong, it went on to become a colossal hit, putting beloved gay characters in front of millions of Americans every week for eight years - plus three more with a revival. But the show also came in for heavy criticism, particularly from gay viewers who said that it did real harm by deepening stereotypes, using slurs, and making queer people look bad. Across its run, Will & Grace racked up 18 Emmy wins, was one of the highest rated shows on television for years, and had an indelible impact on television, culture, and politics. But was that impact a good thing or a bad thing?
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My dad is a staunch conservative who was very homophobic growing up. I never was able to talk to him about my sexuality out of shear fear. Anytime anything gay came on tv he would get disgusted or yell. One day I was on vacation watching Will and Grace with my Dad’s cousin who loved the show. It was the episode where Grace’s mother was setting up Will. My dad’s childhood crush was Debbie Reynolds so he sat and watched the whole episode with us. It was the first time my dad saw anything gay on television and smiled. My dad and I still struggle to this day to talk about gay stuff but I definitely think Will and Grace helped.
I used to confuse Debbie Reynolds & Doris Day a lot. Would this make your dad angry or laugh?
Your dad just regrets choosing to pretend to be straight after making out with that handsome man in his youth.
Hes gay
Perhaps The Apple doesn't fall as far from the tree as the tree might wish it did.... Homophobia is the ONLY Phobia that comes from within...instead of from the external source like Arachnophobia(the fear of spiders) you will break your own neck to get away from spiders and people often will hyper-ventilate or even wet themselves or pass out if one actually crawled onto their hand.... But Homophobic men in general are Afraid of what it makes them feel.
It’s that cognitive dissonance. But you are loved and so accepted.♥️
One thing that made W&G so special was that it presented a *range* of gay characters, not just one token to represent the whole of the community. When people got to see that gayness in itself wasn't necessarily the signature feature of their identities, it became easier for many people to see gay people as "regular folks like us." It's much easier to be dismissive of people in monolithic, faceless groups. Once we see the individuality, it becomes much harder to dismiss their fundamental humanity.
And yet, all the gays were skinny New Yorker proto-metrosexual types. Matt flashed John Goodman’s (too short lived) “Normal, Ohio” up twice, giving a hint that not all gays were “that type”, but Bears and Chubs were a thing, too.
@@brainlock72 Everything starts somewhere. Especially in the 90s its hard to escape "hollywood attractive" television. More queer shows have more queer representation. Like Grace and Frankie! Two chub old timers and their experience is so heartwarming to watch.
@@brainlock72 Which, if I remember correctly, was part of what sank it. The "young, fashionable, conventionally-attractive urbanite" was, as far as mainstream culture was concerned, what being gay WAS. Believe me, I was pretty excited when Normal, Ohio was announced and was disappointed with how quickly it vanished.
The irony of that given how many people in the community literally use the rainbow flag and their orientation as the only part of their identity wrapped in RuPaul quotes and sassy friend tropes 😂
@@theKeshaWarrior Well current social media trends have most people using the content they see as their own identity. On the other side, for people in previous generations if you've had to spend your whole life bottling your effeminate self by the time you come out you really MAKE it a staple of your personality. Which is not the case for everyone but it's definitely a vast majority.
I remember 13 year old me terrified that my dad would hate me for being gay. I'd heard him make jokes at gay people's expenses before and feared the worse. And then one day I saw my dad in hysterics watching a show I had never seen before. Turns out he was a big fan of Will & Grace, told me it was the best sitcom on TV, and that it was quickly becoming his favorite (even beating Frasier).
Suddenly from fearing his response we went to watching Will & Grace every week...
I'll always be grateful to W&G.
That is a terrible thing to go through, having to fear your own fathers reaction to who you are. Being gay shouldn’t be something that you keep locked away, it’s something you should celebrate. I’m glad that your dad turned out to be more supportive then you thought
It's bizarre thinking of Jack and Karen as "supporting characters". It turned into such an ensemble cast, and they all had such major emotional arches as it went on. They're all leads.
Am I just weird or does anyone else think of Karen as the original "Karen" in slang? Karen was my favorite.
@@teacherjoe7019 Karen was hilarious! Her character always reminds me of Bebe, Frasiers agent lol lol
Yes
Totally agree.
Jack and Karen were our favorite characters when I watched it growing up with my parents, especially my mom.
Sitting here over twenty years later crying over the fact that we can never take one damn bit of progress for granted.
💔
It makes me sad, too.
@ttintagel This particular prejudice has undoubtedly plagued mankind as much as religion & race combined. Homosexuality is part of nature. It has been part of our species since the very beginning. It was likely one of the earliest & most primitive human prejudices to affect us, simply cuz of how rooted our sexuality is to our very soul & identity. So, even we had no wheel, & clubbed our sexual partners to have sex...some of those neanderthals were males clubbing males & having their way, & the women certainly found comfort in each other...
Every single episode of this series makes me tear up.
I was lucky enough to grow up at the turn of the millenium in a progressive area.
I have never heard f***** or q**** in a derogatory way, in person, in my life.
This series makes me appreciate the people who fought so hard so I can live the life I live.
@@SoulEaterTV101 As an old, cis white dude, it makes me happy you've never had those slurs thrown at you. Hell, just as a human being it makes me happy.
I'm a retired nurse and my first floor assignment was the new HIV/AIDS floor in 1986, the heartbreak of watching a human, a person, die alone because they were "not right" made me open my very rural mind and see the person. "Will & Grace" helped the world do the same thing, people are people who cares who they kiss, love or hold. How we treat each other is what matters. I enjoy your videos Matt, keep up the good work. And yes, I'm 63 y/o hetero female and just enjoy people. Cheers y'all.
that’s so sweet!!!!!
Well Said Beverly! Cheers!
An excellent comment Beverly. Why you have relatively few thumbs up makes no sense at all. Good for you for working with HIV/AIDS patients with love and caring, and acceptance of their humanity when stigma and hatred were rampant.
@@yogiperogy no offense to Gays but Many ('of Us") don't like to appear too Enthusiastic--eeeck under their tightly closed mouths (sorry, I'm feeling bitchy)
Lots oh straight people died of hiv too
My straight parents, who grew up in rural, religious environments, loved Will and Grace. I think the show really helped normalize gay people for those who weren't immersed in the LGBTQ+ community (in my small hometown, there were few gay people, and none that were out at that time). Sure it wasn't perfect, but if it helped at least a few parents realize that maybe their gay kid would be ok (and not go to hell), I don't think we can say it had a bad impact.
same story here. small Christian anti-gay town, but back in the 90s you could plainly say you watched Will & Grace and only the worst people would maybe raise an eyebrow and trash you behind your back for it. it was accepted overall.
Same!
I've been researching the End Time to provide info on misconceptions, especially for Christians and I can say with accuracy gay is not a sin! The original Hebrew leaders started that because their tribes were too small too defend themselves. Gayness exists in innumerable species. If God didn't want gays then why did he create them!? The KJV has left out and altered many things. The oldest versions are most accurate. In an older version God is referred to as a Hermaphrodite!
Please worry no more.
I feel like Will & Grace doesn't get nearly enough credit for the amount of good it did for the queer community in America. People in middle America welcomed them into their homes every week and they loved them. It shifted the way the general public viewed queer characters - they were no longer some degenerates living lives of debauchery, set on disrupting the fabric of society, into just...regular people. We owe Will and Grace a giant debt of gratitude.
Ellen too. Please don't forget she was the ground breaker. And she did it alone.
I always felt the show was laughing with us, instead of at us. We had so many self-deprecating 90's sitcoms, where the joke was on how flawed the characters were. From Seinfeld to Friends. Why not us? I get why people were offended, and I see this from 35-year old perspective. The defensive response was & still is totally valid. However, there's nothing wrong with feminine queer men and there's nothing wrong with being uptight, finicky queer men.
One of the things that really bothered me about W&G criticism, and this is coming from a gay man who didn't particularly like the show (didn't hate it, just not my thing), was the accusations that Jack's was "too gay" or "too flame-y."
That irritates me. I know people like Jack in real life, and it pisses me off that some people who claim to be queer rights activists want to insist that a large portion of the queer community doesn't get to have representation on television, because Jack and other fem gay men don't feed into their bullshit respectability politics. Fem queer men exist, and they deserve every bit of the the same rights as straight passing queer people, and that includes the right to representation.
@@codyofathens3397 I always got the sense that the issue was Jack was never a very likeable character. He had little dimension (at least in the early episodes I saw in the 00s UK) to give him a personality. The queer gay men I know have personalities and are fun, happy and sometimes sad. I'm glad the show existed and I do see its value culturally (laughing with us more than Friends that's for) but to me it always felt a bit more like a safe 2D straight cosmopolitan perspective.
@@wookiecookie88 but Jack did have character. He was unapologetic about who he was. He was honest, dramatic, fun, shallow, vapid, but also funny, lighthearted, and calming. When he found out he was a dad, he tried really hard to be the best dad he could & he did a good job. He fought homophobia at Will's job/on TV and gave Will the courage and space to be bold brave & spontaneous without losing himself in the process. He helped Grace during her tough breakups. He was honest when he'd see men date Will just for his money (jack never hid this about himself lol) and not for who be was. Jack even married Beverly Leslie to pay Karen back for basically financing his entire lifestyle up until that point. He even married Rosario so that she could stay in the US bc he knew how much Rosario and Karen meant to each other. Jack had character.
@@codyofathens3397 I have worked with at least half a dozen guys that remind me of Jack, & I've seen kids on Tick-Tok who make him look tame.
I dont have a problem with honesty, i do have a problem with hypocrites and i dont care who they may be.
I'm not against gays but i am against those who are in the closet and dont accept the wonderfull gift Mother Nature gave them.
Dont disrespect Mother Nature or i'll show you what nature allows 😈
Fun Fact: the actress who plays Jack's mother, Veronica Cartwright, starred in the Children's Hour with Shirley MacLaine and Audrey Hepburn when she was a little girl. The movie is about how a gay rumor destroys the lives of two women. And here she is, 30 years later, accepting her gay son
Thank you! I couldn't think of what her name was. Also love The Children's Hour
I remember that movie, it's really good! I also just saw her in the 1979 Invasion of the Body Snatchers.
Veronica Cartwright was also on _The Birds_ and was Lambert on _Aliens_ . Her younger sister Angela Cartwright is known for Brigitta von Trapp in the film _The Sound of Music_ (1965), Linda Williams in the 1950s TV series _The Danny Thomas Show_ , and Penny Robinson in the 1960s television series _Lost in Space_ .
@@RaymondHng cool. I didn’t know they were related at all, much less sisters! You learn something new every day!
@@brainlock72 Sometimes a sibling who also works as an actor will change their name. *James Arness* is known for portraying Matt Dillon for 20 years in the CBS television series _Gunsmoke_ . His younger brother Peter Arness changed his name to *Peter Graves* and is best known for his role as Jim Phelps in the CBS television series _Mission: Impossible_ .
I still don't understand how some people genuinely believe that media representation doesn't matter and that media doesn't say people's sociopolitical and sociocultural attitudes. It so clearly does and this is a fantastic example of that.
I think a lot of people have bought into the unimaginative idea that any art that doesn't qualify as "high art" isn't important or capable of being useful beyond petty entertainment. As if implied messages just somehow don't exist somehow.
Only the ppl who does not have a lack in représentation thinks it doesn't matter.
And even those ppl.
The straight white cis men type of ppl, flip their shit when there's a new Ghostbuster and they're not in it.
Coz apparently it matters a lot, if something is not about them, just for once.
you know, mostly who says that are white cis men. cause they see themselves on tv all the time
I mean according to this woe is me wokie it came out during the “worst” time. God forbid angelic Ellen have her feelings hurt
@@ollylevesque3404 well being a bit*h is Not a Female thing--FOR SURE!! (heres me being a bit*h, huh...!!!
I came out to my mum, after seeing the episode where Will finds out that Jack has never came out to his mum.
I was barely 16 at the time and saw that and thought that's no way to live your life. Came out later that week. The show had a major impact on me when I was just a little gay teen. Never thought it mocked us gays, it was nice to see people like me on tv.
I liked that while Will would pick on Jack for being flamboyant, Jack would get him right back for being a stick-in-the-mud. nobody was ever portrayed as the correct kind of gay or too much, just fun and interesting people with unique stories going on in their lives. I was a presumably straight teen girl when I watched the show but I am sure it made it possible for me to accept my bisexuality a couple of years later.
"Well she is gay every single week" God bless Diane Sawyer.
That was a lame comeback. She is also a woman every week. You can't make a sitcom out of one joke, which is exactly what she did the minute she came out. The show simply became unfunny. I remember watching it before and after. It was already losing ratings, and the coming out episode was meant to gain viewers. Then, the jokes all revolved around her being gay. It was strained, and too try hard. People don't walk around talking about their sexuality nonstop. It should have added more to her character, while not taking anything else away. It took everything else away. People weren't homophobic, because there were plenty of gay entertainers that were going strong. If you don't think that 99.9% of Barry Manilow's straight fans didn't know he was gay before he came out, you're wrong. He's probably the last one to know he was coming out, because we already knew decades before. That's leaving out the many others. People just wanted a funny sitcom, and they weren't getting one.
@jenx5870
"People weren't homophobic" What on earth are you talking about? There was a massive amount of homophobia when her character came out. Jesus 🙄
@@muddydog6605 TRUE SHE ..was THAT B***H....'Ellen Degenerate"
One thing to also remember was that the 1997 Julia Roberts movie "My Best Friend's Wedding" had become a suprise hit a year before so the creators of Will & Grace piggybacked off the well-received premise of a gay man and his female best friend when they were pitching the show to execs. This is mentioned in the official Will & Grace handbook.
@@HhhHhhh-nu4lm six feet under was 3 years after W&G
I always imagine a sliding scale of glamour with the trifecta of "90s ginger women and their gay best friends":
My Best Friend's Wedding, followed by Will and Grace, followed by the gritty Gimme Gimme Gimme
@@diogeneticist3585 Gimme Gimme Gimme? Like the song?
@@Stella-iW123 British sitcom about a woman and her gay friend, it's a bit of a mess but fun.
@@manthony225 your right but the guy in that video acted like modern family the first gay hit show post will and grace was a hit. six feet under had a major gay charactor it was hit. birdcage was a hit too .
Let's not forget about Leslie Jordan's participation in this show as Beverly Leslie, how divine, funny, loveable and great he was, a true gay legend.
You mean he IS a great funny gay icon.
@@drwatsonca6945 Oops, my bad!
@@jackkerouak you were kinda on to something there 😕 After his death, I found his episode list and watched them on Amazon; I really love him 🙂
@@jackkerouakwell well...
@@gwendolenyoung4198 I smell gin and regret Lol 😂
I LOVE how they addressed the whole you're "too gay" or "not gay enough" in an episode to point out how those phrases like that hurts the whole community. And i LOVE your videos about this history.
"a will-they-won't-they romcom" OH! Ok this makes sense now! I was wondering why they wrote the first season like maybe Will wasn't gay after all and would end up with Grace. It felt so awful watching it recently, but as a gimmick to hook on-the-fence viewers during a time when gay sitcoms were cursed...yeah, that was a good strategy! I feel like it does a disservice to gay people by perpetuating myths, but it was actually reverse gay baiting. It was straight baiting! Touché! Turnabout is fair play 😂
I guess that's a possible interpretation, I was a straight woman who frequented gay clubs with my gay friends. I've lived that clip and I thought it was very authentic when I first saw it. But then, I grew up in theater throughout the 80s. It wasn't a shock when someone came out, it was just a fact.
I think it also does a double effect, as later in the show they did address alot of gay experiences, and that initial "what am I? am i straight? bi?" kinda phase often goes similarly to how will did. essentially forcing yourself to be straight, if nothing else to be sure. and on the outside it can seem like a "will-they-wont-they", so as much as it was just to hook people, it did also address a common queer experience
@@jadegreenleaf781 Can relate
Normalization is such a powerful method to fight bigotry. So much of bigotry is fear of the unknown. I think that’s what makes the show so powerful.
When I was a kid, Ellen was my favorite show. Even as a little kid I was heartbroken when it was cancelled. Will and Grace stepped in to fill that void. So grateful to have grown up watching both.
I came out the year before Will and Grace aired. I don't know what it meant to others, but it meant the world to me. It helped me navigate conversations with family and friends that just one year earlier were difficult to have. I made new friends hanging out at the weekly Will and Grace showing at the gay bar. It will always hold a special place in my heart. Was it perfect? Nope, but was it right on time? Absofuckinglutely!!!
Saw it as a kid together with friends and other sitcoms of the 90s. What Will & Grace did for me: I experienced very young that there is no way "how to be gay". Jack was stereotyp in a lot of scenes - but also a complex character. Will was mostly a "normal guy" just that he felt sexual attracted to men. There are a lot of scenes that did not age well, but I will never forget that it WAS the first show that also aired in Germany (Ellen did not run here, at least not when I was allowed to watch TV) showing homosexual people simply as people. It showed me that you do not have to wear short hair to be lesbian or act female to be gay. That your daily life is just like everyones elses: jobs, hobbies, friends... Simply be yourself and you are valid - no matter how you behave, look or feel.
Ellen did air in Germany, I remember the bookstore, and that I got bored a lot.
Have you never seen Lukas? Dirk Bach as the main character, a lesbian woman as one of the other main characters. HIV activism, transsexuals and gay dating as main plots on a tv-series aired by a public broadcaster in the mid 90s.
@@larsg.2492 I was too young to search for such content then (born 1991), but yeah, I love Dirk Bach (RIP) and Hella von Sinnen now, but as a child Will and Grace was aired just between family shows. So it was my first - not my last - show with a queer main cast. My father also never put on ZDF or ARD on television. Still does not. He is not a friend of LGBTQIA+ in general (I do not like the term homophob, because it ist no phobia) so it was certainly an opportunity for me.
@@Siures Yeah, Ellen did air on RTL after midnight, there's no way you could have watched it back then at that age.
@@Siures like not a friend of black people in general it is not a racism? of course it is a phobia
My dad, who thought gay people were committing a sin, loved Will and Grace. This was an iconic show
Will & Grace literally changed my life, I remember flipping through the channels as a teenager and watching an episode from that moment on my life seemed so much better… this show had such an impact on me that I even have two dogs named “Will” and “Grace”
This was my first ‘comfort show’. When my first boyfriend broke up with me, I called my mum at work and she told me to put on Will and Grace until she got home. There were so many true and raw emotions explored, as well as comedy that only queers and allies get to revel in 💜
One of my favorite series ever. I was in my teens for most of it. Closeted, but very much a fan. My parents also enjoyed it and I firmly believe that that show helped the transition after I came out. At that time in the Deep South, there wasn’t much “gay” to be seen. (Still not in many respects.) But that show definitely bonded us, and helped us to use humor as we navigated the awkward early years of my post-closet life. Much respect for everyone involved in that project. It definitely helped in the big picture.
I was 9 years old when Will & Grace came on the air and 17 when it first ended. HUGE influence on my coming out. I'm forever grateful to the writers, producers, and actors.
I see a lot of comments talking about being more into Queer As Folk. I always saw it as QAF was for us queers, like any one can watch it and enjoy it but it felt like it was made for us. Will and Grace, which I grew up watching, was a more 'gentle' representation that made the rest of the world more comfortable and empathetic to queer issues, who may have previously been overwhelmed by something like QAF
Yes. We need both kind of shows.
And it was American, not British, and that made all the difference. No way to say we weren't "ready" for it here. We WERE ready and we loved it.
Yes! And I'm so glad I saw this video because it changed my mind about Will & Grace. I feel bad for criticizing it so much now. I didn't really watch it when it aired and I came of age watching QAF and the L Word instead. But I love seeing the impact of Will & Grace! I wonder if I can stream it somewhere and give it a binge.
QAF I was banned from watching (and still did whenever I could), but I was allowed to watch W&G and Queer Eye and was so grateful
@@MandVersusNature My siblings and I were banned from watching Three’s Company and Soap! I laugh about it now.
I truly understand the knee jerk criticism of stereotypical portrayal of gay men. Even with Glee, and the RIB’s very gay control of the show, there were a lot of moments in the first 3 seasons that felt deeply and seemingly purposely insensitive, i.e. Kurt coming out vs. Santana being outed. So that feeling is not lost on me. When I finally came out, I was defensive, aggressive, and refused to be pigeonholed in the same way I refused to be pigeonholed for being a middle eastern Muslim woman. But some of the gay & lesbian stereotypes aren’t necessarily wrong and more so, they’re not necessarily bad, despite whatever misogynistic reason portrays them as such.
I watched Will & Grace when I was fairly young-I’m in my 20s-and mostly reruns. Initially it normalized the presence of homosexuality in my insular, conservative home. Even when I would return to my home country for a few months, I’d watch it there in my grandparent’s apartment. Which, by the way, was airing on cable shockingly. Eventually, when my mom threw me out when I was 16, I went back to will & grace, even when my close friends were levying the same criticisms, because I related with Will. It was always centrally apparent to me, from the very beginning that he was compensating because of our absolute garbage society. And Grace’s unshakeable, unconditional love for Will eased some of the jagged edges of my broken heart.
Also, god was Sean Hayes hilarious.
RIB's?
@@lpphillyfan Ryan Murphy, Ian Brennan, Brad Falchuk. They were the head writers and producers.
Sean Hayes...man that guy is a fucking hilarious actor...regardless if he's gay or straight.
He's funny as hell. Best actor on the show. I say this as a straight male.
As a kid it helped to see queer people just living their lives being happy. But I did know a lot of gay kids that mimicked Jack, but it did help them find themselves.
Stop calling gay people queer.
Great video... I was a queer kid in high school when the Will & Grace premiered and I dismissed it after The Advocate and others had panned it. I felt like we were in a fight for our lives and Will & Grace felt so low stakes. I had recently experienced a student on the school bus ask if the rumor I was gay was true. After I confirmed, he said he would bring a gun to "pop you dead". I had no life experience with campy friendships or mundane life as a gay person. Given what came off to me as a lack of concern for the stakes, I wrote off Will as self-centered and apathetic and Jack as a buffoon, a minstrel show for the modern era. While the show grew into more, I am still slightly resentful of it to this day.
I have considered going back and putting in the effort to watch it. Your review of its backdoor activism and overall impact add to that consideration. Thank you for your excellent videos...
@@davidstevenson404 Um, did you intend to reply to my comment? If so, I have no idea what you are talking about
@@rugbybeef deleted it cuz I dont remember what I was saying.
no offense
@@davidstevenson404 No worries man...
I didn't embrace my queerness until I was in my 30s. I started having feelings for me around the same time I started having them for girls. But I distinctly remember this show being the first time I didn't feel guilty about those thoughts. This show still means a lot to me because of that.
To me youre bi-sexual not Gay--but no offense meant--you are "YOU"
People like you are why I spent so much time feeling like an outsider in my own community. You may have sincerely not intended offense, but your statement is deeply offensive. I didn't embrace my queerness until my 30s specifically because a bunch of Gs and Ls said I wasn't. Kindly don't speak to me anymore. @@davidstevenson404
Will and Grace changed my life and gave me hope when I was 12 years old and the only gay kid in a small town. I treasure this show and these characters and hold them close to my heart, and I have NEVER agreed with the criticisms that Will and Grace was an offensive stereotype. It saved me.
You're my new favorite channel matt.as a bi guy who always feels like he's got a foot in both worlds it's great to learn about gay television history
I love him too as a bi woman for the same reason!! He’s so sweet and fun 😊
I'm 44, bi woman, and totally understand what you mean by "a foot in both worlds". I ended up marrying a man. I feel like I am not subject to a lot of the same prejudices as gay and transgender individuals because I "blend in". 😒
I too love his style, i just found him today! Im binging now. Bi woman in california.
Will and Grace never punched down, their humor was so authentic, the writers really nailed. I am not a great fan of American sitcoms but I did love their humor and comradery which was so evident amongst the actors, their actual high regard and respect and friendship for each other made the show even more authentic. Thank you so much for this wonderful video. I was raised fundie and you know what that entails. I had so many weird views of being gay when I was little, it was ridiculous. Shows like these are really important societal markers for change.
I felt at the time that Will & Grace was breaking down resistance in "Middle America". On the screen and in real life, it's hard to hate a group of people if you've learned to love them individually. And lightning really struck with that cast and production team! Thanks for another great video!
My very best friend was gay. She died 4 years ago & I miss her everyday. She lived in a different state & we never met but, we texted everyday sometimes most of the day she had kidney disease & I sent her uplifting messages & online cards to keep her spirits up. I'm straight but, she didn't hold that against me. LOL We could talk about anything, well almost everything. She had a wonderful family & they joined my Pearl's Peril club. We had so much fun. I haven't played since. It just wasn't the same. I was invited to be online when she passed & I wrote a heartfelt letter to her & her partner read it to her. Four years & i still miss her & cry if I think of her too long. Gay people are just people, they love like everyone else maybe more💕🐞
It also helped that the Julia Roberts movie "My Best Friend's Wedding" which championed a best friendship between a straight woman and her gay bestie was a box hit office hit & had won over a lot of people. It normalized those relationships and soon it became fashionable to have a gy bff. This social mindset shift helped momentum for Will & Grace. The creators mention this in the book you show here and that helped them with their network pitches.
"But she is gay every single week though." Amazing interviewer
What a great, well-researched video. I'm a big Will & Grace fan, and as a millennial queer, it taught me so much, and showed me a possibility of my life as an actual queer adult. And I'm saying this as a small town Australian. The impact of Will & Grace is worldwide. It's still a comfort watch to this day. Thank you for your video.
This is why representation matters so much. You're the best, Matt.
I love Will and Grace it helps a lot of gay people to come out and don't be ashamed of who you are.
Its fucking unfathomable how will and grace was struggling with 11 million viewers while shows today struggle to even get 500k viewers.
It really puts into perspective how dead TV really is.
Streaming is so easy and way cheaper I totally get why live ratings have crashed the way they have.
Because cable was just becoming widespread and cheap enough to be in more homes, drawing viewers away from the Big Three networks. Hell, even dad’s old place, he had to get satellite because they still won’t hook up anyone in his immediate area. Today, the diversification is so wide, I’m surprised any show gets a million live, let alone streaming figures. The 2000s, NBC was one of the last to recognize delayed viewership numbers (“+7” as it was then called) and several shows suffered from it. Heroes went from Must Watch in s1 to “maybe tomorrow?” by s3 due to the new dvr technology, while the new digital pirating made it #1 show for years after it was cancelled in s4.
There was an interview with younger actors some time back, where Johnny Galecki noted that his former sitcom would regularly DROP to 30M on a RERUN, and when it dipped below that, they were disappointed. It ended as W&G was starting and s9 had similar ratings, which they thought were *really disappointing*. The Conners now struggles to hit that 1M mark and is one of ABC’s top rated comedies, and just barely got a s5 renewal.
Or how saturated TV is currently.
that also explains why even a bunch of us in the comments have stories about our entire Christian town still watching this show - we have to remember TV options WERE very limited, so in a way we kinda forced the gay agenda on them lmao
Well cable barley exists anymore unless you wanna pay an arm and a leg all the cable companies are trying to do weird streaming tv apps that suck
I was born in 1968, in a town of 3k people. I knew I was gay at 14, it was brutal but didn't stop me from trying out for Cheeledar in 6th grade, trying out for the twirl team freshman year, junior year tried out for drum major, finally my senior year I became drum major 87' that time in my life I had a boyfriend, was going to Gay Bar 10 of my friends had died of AIDS. Been shot at for being gay took a bullet in the back & stomach, beat up many times. All before my sophomore year (1991)of college, then that same year "sophomore college," I tested positive for HIV. Quite College, Pushed everyone away coz at that time you died matter what, now 2022 I'm still here, alone. Everyone I know Is gone . I HAVE SERVIVOR REMORSE ACCORDING TO MY DR. That depression is the worst.
Thanks for leading the way for us.
I hope you're doing okay now. I lost 2 co-worker turned friends from HIV/AIDS. I wish they were still here.
When I say, "thank you for your service", I mean it. You should feel proud of yourself. The friends who didn't survive would want you to live life fully and be happy. And so do I.
Thank you for your service
❤❤❤❤ 🙏 🙏 🙏 🙏
Thank you, Matt, for your wonderfully informative commentaries on our lives and our fortunes. I have lived through all the seriously harmful laws and attitudes of this country (I'm 86), and have done my best to keep out of sight, and especially the public eye, hiding my own sexuality for the greater part of my life. However, in the twilight of my years, I am blessed by knowing there are people such as you and venues such as Will and Grace, and more recently, Modern Family -- along with the many others who show the American people that we are all human -- that we all have loves and desires, and that we all need to be ourselves in order to live the pursuit of happiness that our Constitution guarantees. We are all indebted to you and to your understanding of the human animal, and the needs of all of us in this voyage down the road of life. Thank you many times over. Please, never stop being yourself and helping all of us to be ourselves. Tom Cotner, Martha, OK
Thank you!!
How they beat Ellen's gay curse: They were actually funny. Jack and Karen. Need I say more?
lol
true tho😂
Yeah. The melon baller in the room here is that "Ellen" really DID have lame, unfunny writing. In fact, Ellen's coming out episode wasn't what killed the show, but rather it almost SAVED the show from the lackluster ratings it had been scraping by with for a couple seasons beforehand.
In fact the coming out episode was the most popular episode in the series' entire history, by far. All this hype had been built up beforehand, with appearances on Oprah, and news special stuff, and magazine articles, and Ellen Degeneres and Anne Heche (her long-term girlfriend at the time) making an appearance at the White House Correspondents' Dinner the week or so beforehand.
So when the episode aired, it was almost like the Superbowl--and I mean that almost literally! There was pretty clear evidence that people who had been watching the Bullets play basketball against the Bulls changed the channel for 45 minutes to watch Ellen.
It was such a popular episode that a lot of new viewers, including myself, tuned in for the first time, but then didn't find much to laugh about afterwards. So I think we should give some of those critics of the time a break. Many of them were just pointing out the obvious when they said "It's great that Ellen came out! This is a pioneering moment in television... but it doesn't actually make the content of the show overall any better."
Unfortunately I think a lot of execs looked at a show like Ellen and didn't say "oh, that show failed due to bad writing"--despite this being what all the critics almost universally were saying. They looked at Ellen and said "America isn't ready for gay characters." It is a SERIOUS credit to Will & Grace that they were able to get over that prejudice and stop TV from going back in the closet for another decade.
@@d.m.collins1501 This is a really insightful comment, very informative! Interesting to think that the critics weren't necessarily being homophobic in panning the show, but that execs still drew the wrong conclusions from its downfall
@@d.m.collins1501 I’m happy someone finally said it and that I am not the only one who thought Ellen’s show was terrible to begin with. Ellen has been a mean spirited person from day 1, insulting people in a joking manner isn’t funny. I was totally surprised when they gave Ellen her own talk show. Now she had her own show to torture her guest by scaring them outta there skin and acting so superior. I’m so happy that people have exposed her and she is being canceled. There was no gay curse. Will and Grace was a phenomenal show!
@@DreamsAreMakeBelieve news execs ARENT by and large Smarter than VERY AVERAGE!!--ooops being bit*hy again--oh well--my Inner Bit*h showing!
I love this video. I watched Will and Grace with my mom growing up, and her pro LGBT stance made me feel safe to come out to her as Bi a few years ago
Exactly the same for me. I still feel lucky that my fear of coming out wasn't rejection, just being seen differently by my family. Never had to worry about either as it turned out.
I didn't know Will&Grace was about gay characters when it started. I randomly started watching it and thought it was funny.
The show may have been insensitive to queer viewers but it managed to normalize them to straight audiences. No one cared that any of the characters were gay, they just liked the friendship aspect of the show. All the girls I knew in high school wanted to have a best friend like Will. It may seem like a small thing but that is how you change minds.
Only when rewatching it as a young adult I realized will was gay. Growing up I just thought they were best friends who had trouble getting into a relationship either with others or each other, and since I didn't watch it all the time I never saw when Will was with men or talking about being gay with others.
There is something about having characters like this for straight audiences, it forces them to see them as people rather than stereotypes. And even if it changes their mind from "all of them" to "well you are an exception to the rule" it is working in opening their mind to other ways of life and the people who live them.
I celebrated Will & Grace, I have never had the feeling, it was full of stereotypes or portrayed us gay men in a negative way. I loved every single minute of it.
"The Ellen Curse" = Any well-written and thoughtful series that stars women talking to each other about other stuff than men is doomed.
Howbout let's change that.
Sad and true.
This show treated lesbians kinda crappy too.
We also have to acknowledge that after Ellen came out, her entire character was erased and replaced with a woman who wasn't anything but gay. Until then her character had other facets. Suddenly she was only one note.
Will & Grace gave us characters that filled out and became complex.
That's important.
Well written doesn’t always translate into funny. Ellen was just not funny after she came out.
I was thinking the same.
Love Will & Grace and it’s one of my go to reruns. I think its gayness was a stepping stone and the best mainstream representation we could ask for at the time. The show wouldn’t haven’t been given a chance by the larger viewing audience if Jack/Sean was the main character and Will/Eric was the supporting character. Having a straight actor playing a subdued gay role was definitely more palatable. Also always annoyed me that Grace had more recurring love interests than Will. Hers were often a story arc while his few were b stories
I have great memories of watching this show with my mam and loved those nights. I came out and she said "Just Jack!!". I held back tears of happiness and let out tears of laughter.
I know I've been asking for a long time, but I'd still love to see you do an episode on "Are You Being Served?" It still amazes me that a British sitcom with a flamboyant and often risque gay character would become so popular in the 80's and 90's
the stereotypical effeminate swishy/camp character (who was NEVER actually out as gay - no BFs, no admission of being gay etc) and who was always the butt of the joke was a standard stock character on British TV and movies (eg in the Carry On films or the BBC radio show 'Round the Horne' in the 60s) - it was nothing new. The key point here is -- like all the predecessor TV and movies -- that it was never acknowledged in the show that the character was gay. AYBS started in 1972 -- so the character is much more like the 60s camp/swish stock character than an actual gay character.
I'M FREE!
It’s very funny that today people are pining for the reign of Robert “being gay on TV warrants an adult content warning” Iger at Disney.
He’s got a real case of smug-exec-face in that interview
I was thinking the same thing! People are upset with Chapek's handling of the situation, but looking at this I have no faith Iger would have done any better.
Yes! I thought I was just imagining how smug and condescending he looked and sounded.
Fuck Bob Iger. He's the reason Finn was sidelined in Star Wars Episode 8.
ECCCK FIRE hin Disney!!!
I really love that Will & Grace managed to get on the air by straight-baiting!
I was a straight white kid from the midwest watching WIll & Grace with my mom. I never had any issue with any character and we used the show to make my dad realize his prejudice and overcome it eventually. Having my aunt's friends be awesome people who just happen to be gay also gave him real life examples. "Just Jack" and Jack doing the cher-isms with her are two of my favorite things to this day.
I am unfortunately (non-COVID) sick today. But here we are, another of Matt's video's making me cry. Like they always do.
Loved the woman in the Bob Iger interview. She said all the right things
Barbara Walters, I think?
@@Sky-bx9mn Diane Sawyer lol
@@thecoldglassofwatershow Thanks, I'm the worst at faces
I waited a long time to finally watch Will & Grace complete. Even i still don't like the way the show portrayed or make main characters (i'm talking about you, Jack) treat lesbian characters, W&G has a special place in my memories. I think it helped me on loving myself a little bit more and also did such an improvement on educating me about LGBT culture.
This episode stirred up a lot of memories. As a kid I was surrounded by anti-gay messaging, and I never believed it but it sort of seeped in by osmosis. I spent my young adulthood (and still am) purging that stuff from my system.
But seriously, the show was close to being cancelled and they were worried about controversy? That's the best time for controversy!
will and grace is very rewatchable. the humor may not be pc for now but just like friends, their humor will always transcend the test of time for the real fans!
I can't wait for this video, you don't put out nearly enough content, but I understand you want to keep it thorough and a great quality
A little light shade on this spring Sunday I see
Agree
Doesn't put out nearly enough content?
Somebody isn't a Patron 😉
Lol thank you, glad you're enjoying them (and if you want more I release weekly videos on Patreon! patreon.com/mattbaume )
@@MattBaume well I guess I'll have to just start a membership on your Patreon page
This sitcom was so well written. Took camp & satire to mainstream like no other before.
🏆💕👍
22:00 aw man, I don't know what that "incredibly dirty joke" about dying her hair red was, but I hope it's something like: "Dying my hair red? Oh my, the carpet will match the drapes only once a month!" 😅
I was just wondering if you'd do a video on Will & Grace! As a straight woman who grew up in a conservative country, I really have to thank you for doing what you do :). You've helped me not only to find out more about queer history but also to see the world through gay people's eyes, which is absolutely invaluable and definitely helping me be a better ally :).
At first I thought, "premiere, oh please", but I love this guys videos and can't wait. I hate that I have to work soon lol
My old pal Lonzie (RIP) taped the pilot for me because I needed some shows to critique for my class. Need to watch the revival seasons.
I watched Will and Grace when I was pretty young, I think in elementary school, at my grandparents' house. At the time, I liked it a lot, but I had no idea of any of the issues. Learning about the impact of this show, as well as the issues it tackled has given me even more respect for this show. Thank you for making this informative, interesting video. I feel like I've learned a lot, and it really helped frame the show and the points it has made.
This is not the kind of channel I ever would have thought I'd gravitate towards. But my God, there is something so soothing and affirming about just listening to Matt. Today while processing some trauma and horror going on in the world and in my own life, your Golden Girls recap came on and just...... even though I've seen it a lot..... it just felt like I had a friend over. Not just a friend. A pal. A confidant. We love you, Matt! You're doing good work! People need this. I need this.
I wasn't a fan of Will & Grace at first but then one day I just turned it on and watched and I laugh hard. And I was a fan ever since
Will & Grace was wonderful to watch growing up because so much television from my youth was so afraid, and the lessons I learned from them was to "stay silent" but it's hard to live in silence. The silence was deadly. I witnessed what happened to Ellen, I was scared. Part of me I wanted to acknowledge I risked my own life to speak I couldn't speak. But, Will & Grace came along, and even though I didn't watch the revival due to biphobia on the show, it felt good to watch characters with complexity in the community, and with whole lives. All the fits, feuds, and flirtations. I came out as bi before my junior year in high school. Heterosexuals in my life wanted to know if I was like Will or Jack, and I have a "just Jack" affirmation relation with a family friend who is an ally that way in using the show as how we relate to each other. I would say I am like me. But that was this show's moral.
I'd usually watch this home at my friend's place occasionally ^^
The reaction was " _Oh hey, it's Will & Grace. Let's watch that and play Resident Evil after!_ "
I loved it from day one and still watch clips on RUclips howling with laughter over the same scenes I’ve seen countless times. I’m 66 years old and growing up Gay was a nightmare, so the joyous celebration of Will & Grace was a salve for those fearful times.
Matt when are you going to do the perfect world of Schitts Creek? Love your channel.
That's on my list to cover! I've got the big heavy behind-the-scenes book, just gotta find time to dig in.
It's so weird to hear that this show which is now a cultural milestone was almost gone from bad ratings in the first year, it's so long ago I genuinely forgot that (possibly because the show just became a basic part of TV that everyone seemed to watch). Even with the parts that don't age well, it's still one of the best sitcoms ever without very many truly bad episodes in it. Plus I love that it has the distinction of being one of the few shows where every lead actor ended up getting an Emmy, something it only shares with All in the Family, The Golden Girls and Schitt's Creek.
Topics like this make so nostalgic. 20 million people watching a show all together simultaneously and talking about it the next day. What a time. As someone who works in the industry I get misty eyed.
I am bisexual, and have to admit that I stopped watching Ellen after she came out. It really wasn't funny anymore; it had become a one-trick pony. If it had been integrated into her character it probably still have been funny.
I still feel kind of guilty for gradually liking Ellen (the show) less after she came out lol. The Puppy Episode was great, I remember the episode after that where she told her friends being good and funny, and I think there was maybe one other one I liked. But it felt like she wanted to be good representation so much that the actual comedy went out the window. They gave her character a girlfriend who wasn't funny at all, and I remember the very special episode where the gf was in the hospital and Ellen couldn't see her. I mean, it brought up a super important issue, but definitely not funny.
John Barrowman was up for the part of Will. He was rejected because they thought he wasn't gay enough. Which is funny because he is a gay man.
They never would have cast a gay actor to play the lead gay character. It's still uncommon. Look at the big movies with lead gay characters: Call Me by Your Name, Bohemian Rhapsody, Rocketman, etc. All straight actors.
@@balldalt Agreed. Hopefully things will change. Look at the remake of Boys In The Band. There have been some exception, but not enough.
And the Will actor is actually str8!!!
Another great video! Well researched and detailed. Your videos are so important for documenting gay history and culture. Well done!
When the show premiered, I was a single mom who was moving out of state in order to work 60 hours a week. I would have enjoyed it because I was not only involved in community theatre, my third grade teacher and my high school art teacher were gay and they were awesome people. Never heard a bad word against them, and my mother was the town gossip.
Thanks for this. I was closeted until my mid-40's (I didn't come out until 2014), and watching W&G always gave me hope. Plus it was really funny.
(And damn, Matt, the sweater is sexy af)
I have to agree on the sweater 😍
Only sitcoms I have ever watched all the way through are Frasier and Will & Grace. Honestly considering the way parents are I'm kinda surprised I was able to see so much of it in the 90's (ages 5-15 for me). Definitely helped me growing up in such a small town where I knew a grand total of 2 other lgbt ppl.
Dang I teared up at the end. You're vids always make me feel hopeful for the future.
I read your comment just before the end and didn't get it, moments later I was crying!
I'm so saddened by religion and bigoted ideas of antiquity that for so long oppressed love, sexuality, individuality, and the pursuit of the simplest of happinesses!
Matt, I just wanted to write a comment to let you know how much I enjoy your videos!! They are always so well researched and presented, and I love learning about queer tv and other media! You do such an amazing job, and I’m glad you cited to your book in this video so I could go buy it and support you! Can’t wait to read more about the history of marriage equality!
informative and interesting as always, and the bit about the voiceover to explain the darker room is so fantastically hilarious it deserves some kind of award, i'm not sure if for best or worst directing decision.
Watching this brought back such great memories, even tears to my eyes. W&G was a beacon that sadly might never see an equal.
Loved Will and Grace. Every episode had me laughing. This world is desperately in need of more laughter.
I had no idea that "Will & Grace" changed so much for gay people. I didn't really grow up with it because I lived in a conservative home, but this makes me want to go check it out. Great video, Matt!
I'm 17, bisexual, and have been lucky enough to grow up in a very accepting area with incredibly supportive parents. I don't know if my parents ever watched Will & Grace, but I have, and I adore it. Sure, there are plenty of jokes that haven't aged well, specifically some trans jokes, but overall I think it's really funny. It's easy for people to critique it for having all the jokes be the same tone, the same punchline, but people need to understand that's just what sitcoms do. I know many people in my generation might not like the show, but I personally love it. Not just for what it has done for the community, but because it's a funny, good show. Even as someone who grew up in an accepting environment, it was still a little shocking and very refreshing to see gay characters represented as so normal. To this day when characters are confirmed gay in media, I hold onto it so tight. Because in terms of representation, media is generally segregated in the sense that there are certain types of shows that have gay people and certain types that don't. Having a superhero be gay is revolutionary, having Our Flag Means Death, a comedy show, be a gay romance is revolutionary, and in the 90s, having a sitcom ABOUT gay people was beyond revolutionary.
I used to wait until it was on late at night and my parents were asleep to watch it. I would listen for the sounds of my parents bedroom door to open in case I had to flip the channel really fast. It made me so happy to see queer people depicted in a positive way at all. Really was groundbreaking for many queer youth
I miss your sailor outfit.
We all do
Thanks for the video. The backstory on Will & Grace is interesting. I watched the original show from the beginning. I used to comment that I was Grace before W&G became a thing, since one of my dearest friends, who I originally had a crush on, is gay. He's also our daughter's God Father. I loved W&G so much that 10 minutes before the series finale May 18, 2006 the phone rang, and we let it go to voicemail. When the episode ended, we found out what the call was about... our nephew had been killed in Iraq, a war that Hillary helped fasciliate by whipping votes to get other Senators to vote with her for it.
When you mentioned the 2016 ad, I searched RUclips for the full ad because I had a vague memory of it. I don't know who was in the studio audience for that or if they used a laugh track, but the 'laugh lines' made me cringe. Having lived in Pennsylvania and volunteered for Democratic political campaigns knocking doors through multiple elections, and working the polls on election day there, there was so much in that ad that would turn off voters. You could tell it was made by people who had no clue about Pennsylvania politics. I don't know who thought mocking "unemployed, uneducated" people was a way to woo voters. And the vote for her because she's a woman bit didn't address bread and butter issues voters were facing. I can't stand Trump, but Hillary lost Pennsylvania in 2016 in large part because of bad campaign messaging and outreach... and that W&G ad really highlights that.
I have not watched the reboot of W&G other than a couple of RUclips clips. Debra Messing's twitter fued with Susan Sarandon, and Debra's attacks on Bernie Sanders, who has long been a LGBTQ ally, really took the bloom off that rose for me.
The original W&G show was amazing and did a lot to move things forward, so I will always love the original.
Gotta admit, I didn't like the show at first but after catching an episode waaay later I loved it and I wondered what was different. Then I realized Jack and Karen hadn't meet yet
Was more of a Queer As Folk guy myself, now there was a show utterly unabashed to have tons of sex scenes, LGBT+ issues based themes and really went for it at a time when it was sorely needed..
@@nah....6151 I mean it was a 90's to 00's sitcom, all it could accomplish was within those parameters, and I think this video is about the massive impact being successful as a fluffy comedy can have.
I don't think it is fair to compare W&G to QAF; one was on a network and subject to censors and ad boycotts while the other was on a subscription cable service so it didn't have any constraints.
None of then ever worked again when it ended.
QAF normalized my feelings, and helped me come out.
@@bkdmode are we talking about UK queer as folk or the USA reboot?
As a kid growing up in the 90s, when saying "you're gay" was a common school yard taunt, & "gay" was used as slang for "bad"
. . .Will & Grace definitely was a helpful factor in overcoming my own misplaced bigotry.
I grew up around a lot of bigots!!!
And I was very lucky to have escaped that sort of stupidity.
Which might not have happened if there weren't people in the culture; pushing against that sort of foolish, outdated, ignorance
God bless Diane Sawyer for asking good questions of Bob Iger.
If I ever become a dad I want to be the dad that puts my child's happiness far ahead of my own just like Jack's mom.
What I'm hearing is that we need a sitcom with a full trans cast.
It has to be silly and there has to be a lot of different trans people represented.
Pls steal my idea.
I actually have a buddy with a spec script for a pilot with this premise if anyone has any money they wanna throw at this.
POSE. It got cancelled
@@charliebitybytes Pose is not a sitcom. Pose is a very serious drama series tackling incredibly heavy issues. A wonderful series but not a sit-com by any means. Also it was very much beloved and did not get cancelled, the creators actively decided to end it on a high note.
pose isn't a sitcom (tho it definitely had its comedic moments) and it had a solid 3 seasons. but yeah definitely need more trans rep in drama and comedy shows.
I was just a kid when this show came out, and I remember loving it for a reason I couldn't describe at the time. Really, despite not being a homosexual man, seeing this show depict queer characters just being themselves and LIVING was so important to me in retrospect. I didn't come out as queer until well into adulthood, but watching this really brought me back to being a lonely, bullied closeted queer kid just looking for some hope.
This is why queer media is so important!
Honestly my biggest problem with Ellen was it felt forced from what I remember 'I'm gay' felt like a perpetual reminder/punch line and it got exhausting, taking an important life moment and changing it into a big joke.
Will and Grace helped me stay afloat in an ex communist country suddenly turned religious. There are still so many people asking questions "why did he/she/them felt he/she/them had to come out publicly?"; this is my answer. If it helps one kid/person survive, it's worth it. And there are so many places in the world that being gay is still a crime. This is why this show, no mattet the flaws, will always be MEGA relevant and forever 2nd on my favorite tv series list. ❤❤❤❤❤❤❤
Ps forgot- they -