Once again, as an absolute layman when it comes to naval technology, I'm astonished how many variables have to be considered in constructing a successful ship
The SoDak's also benefitted by the skeg arrangement which allowed them to reduce cross sectional area aft while still keeping the usable beam at the waterline and above. This is what allowed such a short, squat ship to hit 26-7 kts.
Ryan, you made my day seeing you stand in front of that screw that shook my dad but good as they steamed back out of Bremerton to rejoin the fight after drydock in '44, sadly realizing "nope, she's still not fixed!" :) Thank you and your crew on New Jersey, and a big shout out to Steve and his crew at Battleship Cove!!
Hey Ryan, I know where a complete set of Iowa class screws are here in San Diego, CA. They are attached to the propeller shafts under water on the museum ship USS Midway CV-41. They were installed during a major overhaul before 1980. I know that they are there because I got to help identify polishing procedures during overhauls in Yoko Japan. The reason for the upgraded screws was massive displacement increases over the years.
God bless you guys for still making videos to educate us even in less than ideal circumstances. Thank you, a lot of us are huge fans and thoroughly enjoy your work, and the fact that y'all went out of your way to keep giving us these gems is awesome. Keep it up!
Ryan, 2022 with BA.5 that mask is still rocking it. l need that for my N.95 today. The NJ Channel is the best. Keeping it up! Thanks for keeping history alive.
I know first hand what a damaged screw is like. In '79 the USS Stein (FF-1065) ran over something while rejoining the Midway battle group. We had to limp to Diego Garcia at no more than 15kts else the ship felt like it would shake itself apart. There we performed what I understand was only the second at sea (not in a dry dock) screw change since WWII. We also found out that it is impossible to get the Screw Nut Wrench out of the ship without cutting holes into the ship. Fortunately the USS Dixon. that we were tied to, made one for us. Unfortunately we also found out that there are Left and Right turning screws and we were sent the wrong one the first time.
I was taught in Boot Camp SD that ships had Screws, Air Planes had propellers. And we called them that Officially ! Battleship or Destroyer, "The Screws" "Screws are stopped, Sir, Turning gears in place"
I feel like "SoDak" would be a great name for one of those "make it at home" soda machines lol. "Introducing the all new SoDak by RyanCo! Flavors include Fuel Oil Fizz, Steam Berry, and Gear Lube Grape"
@@christiantroy3034 That's brilliant!! For the winter collection, there could be a Keurig-type device with flavors like "JP5", "Fantail Wizz", and "Burnt".
SO glad you do this! I live in Fall River MA, the home of the Battleship Massachusetts (BB59) and they DO NOT offer or do anything like this with that ship.. shameful. Thank You!
because of how bad the vibration was The North Carolina earned the nickname Showboat, they kept bringing her back in to test prop designs... and they still had to reinforce everything
Boaters have been fighting vibrations from the first time a prop were installed. Balanced props, running gear, gear reductions, shafts, 3, 4, 5, 6 blade props, counter rotating.... I really think it's more hull related then anything. Every one of my boats have a spot that the harmonics just come thorough no matter what has been done. I have one boat that has had had everything replaced from the front of the motor to the prop nut many times, 3200 rpms same harmonics.
I lived next to a shop that did strictly props from ships and they'd always have the huge doors open and didn't mind people watching from behind the chain. There's definitely an art to machining a huge prop by hand with various power tools.
Big Mamie holds a special place in my heart, having seen her in 1973 when i was 8yrs old. my family traveled from north of detroit to bar harbor maine and we stopped there. my sister was bored out of her skull, my mom found lots of it interesting and my dad, being a Navy Vet from the Korean war enjoyed seeing some navy stuff again after nearly 20 years... thanks for stopping by and a) your lavalier is working GREAT! b) the descriptions seem to be flowing very smoothly and one day id love to come see Massachussetts "big sister"
i only work on vessels from 18 to 80 feet, on those that have had vibration issues, it was always engine alignment or a bent prop shaft or prop damage, if one blade has a minor deviation dissimilar from the rest of the blades, it will vibrate, it doesn't have to be much because hydrodynamic forces are mega super massive
Funny story about that over pass that goes to New Bedford, when it was built in the 60's, when it came together in the middle, it was off by a foot or so I heard, my dad is from New Bedford....great place Battleship Cove, always like your videos.....Cheers
I think the one hull-intact military museum ship that has all its propellers removed and dispersed is probably the Intrepid! They removed the propellers from that aircraft carrier when it was in drydock in 2007. 2 of the propellers stayed in New York on the grounds of the Intrepid museum -- 1 on board, the ship, the other at the entrance to the museum --, the third when on display (outdoors) in Norfolk, VA, and the fourth one is at the Naval Aviation Museum in Pensacola, FL which has a huge collection of artifacts from other aircraft carriers, most of whose hulls were scrapped long ago. As far as I know, the propellers are still in place for the Intrepid's Essex-class sister ships (Yorktown, Lexington, and Hornet) as well as the USS Midway. The largest items they seem to keep from ships that get scrapped appear to be propellers and nameplates. I know the nameplates for USS Enterprise (CV-6), USS Forrestal (CV-59), and USS Saratoga (CV-60) were requested and preserved. I don't know about any other ships that had nameplates preserved. Submarines appear to get their sails, sometimes part of their rudder, and propellers preserved.
I think these little production quality improvements like better a better mic are great (although Battleship cove does have a loud location below the bridge, nothing to be done there), if I ever make the visit to the new jersey I'll gladly buy you a beer.
Another good review! A point of personal trivia: on a trip to BC in the 90s I had left the Titanic Museum, a short distance from where you're standing (is it still there?) and saw masts sticking up from behind the building behind you. Curious, I took a walk around that building where there was a small quay, and tied up was none other than the "Bounty" replica built for the Marlon Brando remake of "Mutiny on the Bounty." That was an unexpected bonus from my trip, may she rest in peace.
Volunteers at Battleship Cove told our tour group that all four propellers were removed before arriving at the museum. They said the size and drag of stationary propellers would have made towing her almost an impossibility. Ocean going tugs were not as powerful or agile back then.
Wow. I had not heard that the Iowas had top speed vibration issues. I had only heard of the North Carolinas having that issue...from Drach of course. Great video and good sound too.
Vibration issues got even more intense when the Missouri and Wisconsin were pushed to one knot shy of forty knots. The Iowa's could match speed boats if they really wanted too.
@@BattleshipNewJersey Officially, yes. Guides and former crew specified that higher speeds were reached but not on official records. If the curators and former crew of Wisconsin and Missouri say otherwise then I will gladly rescind my comment. Thank you.
What nobody has mentioned until now is that there is a radial flow of water from each blade caused by centrifugal force, if this flow is fast enough there may be a shock wave that impinges on the hull, I was one that got to experience the vibration as we made our transit from Gibraltar to Lebanon
On the Massachusetts, the five bladed Props were on the outboard skegs, while the 3 bladed ones were placed on the inboard. That is what the dry dock pictures show before cleaning and removal. So the Skegs do not have the props on them.
@@Shockedbywater I will argue semantics with you. The bridge passes over, and airplanes pass over. But an overpasses is a noun in this context. A plane can fly an overpass which would be an adverb and verb. The difference between the usage is one is naming something in the other one is describing what something is doing. So can an airplane be an overpass, no. Can it fly and over pass, yes. Can a bridge be an overpass, yes. Can a bridge fly an over pass, no. Hope that clarifies the grammar behind my thinking.
@@hamaljay You really want to get that technical? LOL I was kidding but since you seem to be serious it is not an 'overpass' it is a bridge as it crosses water. Check you definitions. overpass noun Definition of overpass (Entry 2 of 2) : a crossing of two highways or of a highway and pedestrian path or railroad at different levels where clearance to traffic on the lower level is obtained by elevating the higher level also : the upper level of such a crossing
A retired Canadian Air Force engineer here wondering if the vibration puzzle was ever solved or accurately understood? :) I am thinking along the lines of a cold case file using todays computer modeling or other analysis tools available as it sounds like something a Masters student might do for a thesis.
One other reason propellers are replaced is damage caused by cavitation. At high speeds, pockets of air form behind the blade, which then collapse, which over time causes pits to form in the blade, reducing it's efficiency. Cavitation can also be a cause of vibrations. Attack subs have highly refined blades to help prevent cavitation, because a cavitating blade on a sub is a death sentence in combat.
In multi-engine, propeller-driven airplanes, we synchronize all the props to run at the same rpm, reducing vibration. I wonder if that was done on big ships.
Ryan, did the fast capital ships of other navies also have vibration issues? By fast I’d say anything 25 knots or faster, in other words leaving out the Queen Elizabeth class. I said Capital Ship to leave out the panzerschiffe, but include the Dunkerque and Scharmhorst classes, and the ships which the Japanese re-engined to faster speeds.
Question: you mentioned HMS Prince of Whales - that made me think - were there any British or perhaps Japanese vessels that DID deal more successfully with vibration issues than USN vessels? HMS Vanguard maybe?
This topic recently came up in a discussion with some mates: In the event a large vessel like this needed to stop or reverse, how did the general design (Shape, symmetry) of the propellers affect things like cavitation and the aforementioned vibration? Aside from the shape of the stern and extra drag induced, were the propellers themselves as efficient when required to run astern? Much smaller civilian propellers are of course often shaped asymmetrically and aren't much use if you tried to run them the wrong way. Interested to know how these compare! And of course thanks for the updates and new videos! Stay safe out there! 👍
Cody: When you reverse the screws at high speed, this generates much cavitation. The screws are much less efficient in reverse. Those are just trade offs of the design. USNR-ret.
@@KB4QAA Very interesting, thank you for the insight! Is this only the case at-speed when reversing their direction (thus having opposing forces at the screws) or do the same inefficiency issues happen when reversing the vessel from a stationary position?
@@cody4783 The screws don't change shape, so their efficiency doesn't change. In any case, efficiency in reverse is of little concern since ships don't operate in reverse for more than a few minutes.
We strongly believe in following all health regulations and, considering our volunteers and staff are primarily in very vulnerable groups, isn't it better to go the extra mile in protecting them?
I don't know how you're processing your audio, but you could try putting it through a noise filter in audacity or a similar program which should catch what gets past your new mic - you could also use it to normalise the volume of the clips so it doesn't vary so much.
Perhaps you or a viewer has checked out of curiosity,..... ....did all the blade-swapping experimentation actually provide useful results or did it turn out that any efficiency/benefit was only on the order of around 1%? Alternatively, perhaps they found that Configuration #2 solved or reduced the problems found with Config. #1 but introduced new problems. So they went on to Config. #3 which solved #2's problems but brought back some of #1's AND added new problems. Wash, rinse, repeat. 😉
While watching this video, a really interesting question popped into my head. How much more effort and work is required to upkeep and maintain the ship in NJ where there are 4 seasons of different weather, i.e. winter with snow and ice, as opposed to ships like Missouri in Hawaii which has basically the same climate year round?
That's a great question! Its definitely something that impacts each sites priorities. So NJ, having winter, it was really important to us to be able to open more interior spaces and allow guests to get in out of the cold and to be open in the winter. Which is certainly aided by the amount of difficulty we have in doing exterior work in bad weather. So our interiors are particularly great in comparison to some of the others while our exteriors are rougher. We just have fewer days to work. That being said, we have found a cool set up to keep laying teak deck year round. The thing to remember is that even when there isn't actual snow or ice, paint and what not doesn't set below a certain temperature so dry and warm is important. Mind you, I'm sure its tough to get work done outside on Alabama in summer because of the heat. Especially with our typically older volunteers. Unfortunately, NJ has all 4 seasons unlike most of the BBs.
I'd love to see what a fully modernized battleship would be like but im aware that the navy (probably) won't ever do it. But redesigned big guns and modeern missile systems would be a force to be reckoned with. What do you think?
It is interesting, but not really surprising, that many of the great transatlantic liners-- roughly the same size and same speed as contemporary battleships-- had similar problems with vibration, ameliorated with propeller changes and hull stiffening-- much of the stiffening in the form of massive wood beams in inaccessible parts of the ship.
engines and steam system. how much are they connected? for instance can a ship not have steam yet still have engines. and are there museum ships that have their engines still running or steam systems operating?
We really wanted to and we just ran out of time, theres so much to see at Battleship Cove! We spent three 18 hours days there and still didn't get to see everything there, nevermind any field trips
I have seen many blueprints of the USS Midway with Inboard Skegs like the Iowa’s and on the Midway museum itself they have a model of it with inboard Skegs. But some blue prints and drawings from its later years do and don’t have Skegs and I have seen photos of the Midway without them. I’m just curious to know if anybody knows when and why they where removed and or if it was every designed with them. Thank you
On a multiple screw ship, assuming an even number of screws, half will turn clockwise and half will turn counterclockwise in the ahead direction. That is done to eliminate the side thrust that would be generated if all screws turned in the same direction. On a single screw ship the screw will rotate clockwise in the ahead direction. That means there will be a tendency for the screw to "walk" the stern of the ship to starboard and as a result the ship will turn tighter to port than she will to starboard. Clear as mud? :-)
@@minarchist1776 No Mike, just clear. I did not know how to frame the question correctly, as I was (am? lol) a relative ignoramus in ship propulsion dynamics. I did suspect that screws turned in opposite directions but I didn't want to make a complete damn fool of myself if my musings were wrong. I think Bismarck attempted to steer using differential screw speeds but maybe that was a case for being able to adjust prop shaft rotation directions in propeller gearing design. Would differential prop shaft adjustment, i.e clockwise to counterclockwise theoretically be able to steer a ship if the rudder was disabled? Thanks for the reply!
@@XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX981 A ship, at least those in service with the U.S. Navy, that has multiple shafts and screws can have them going in different directions. In other words, the shaft(s) on the starboard side could be set to try to move the ship forward and the shaft(s) on the port side could be set to try to move the ship backwards, thus forcing the ship to turn to port. However, that is something that is only going to work at relatively slow speeds. Or at any rate the ship will be going relatively slowly after you have half the screws trying to move her backwards. While I suspect that Bismark could have done that sort of thing, with her rudder jammed to one side she would need to have some of her screws trying to move her backwards to counteract that all the time while she tried to move forward using only half her propulsion plant. She might have been able to go more or less straight as a result, but she would have been hard pressed to escape a rowboat, let alone the Royal Navy. They probably decided not to do that with the idea that going fast in a circle would make her a harder target than going ahead in a straight line slowly.
Apparently, as per Google, SS Great Britain had them, and apparently some more modern ships have had them fitted. Note these are civilian designs though, a quick search doesn't seem to indicate any militerys that will admit to using them. Edit: the US Navy originally fitted them to Thresher/Permit-class SSN's and found them unsatisfactory, same as with Brunels Design. So it would appear to be a very inefficient/ noisey/ vibration prone design
Roland V: From my 1970's navy training, the bearing material is an African wood called Lignum Vitae. Extremely hard and water resistant. Off the top of my head I recall a replacement material being found in the early 1990's(?). No idea what has been used in recent decades construction. Hadn't thought of that in ages. Thanks for the memory recall! b.
I was taught as a boy that ships did not have propellers, air planes did and that the proper word to define them is 'screw;. can you elaborate/explain?
Not to bust your chops or anything but the Prince of Wales, only had two screws so both were technically outboard. It would have been more appropriate I believe to say Portside. I don't remember clearly but I've got a fifty-fifty chance of being right! Otherwise great presentation. It does perplex me as to why there was as for vibration problem. I would think from the pure engineering standpoint it would be worth going back over the blueprints to try and figure it out to prevent the problem from occurring in the future. Maybe give a few minutes of cray time! I wonder if those are problems with a lack of rigidity in the shaft and its mountings. Perhaps bearing size? Something was taking those propellers and creating an out-of-balance condition. Shaft Flex could possibly do that. Just point of view
You usually are top of things pretty good. But you dropped the ball on the amount of screws POW had. It was four screws, not two. Not busting your chops John but you are wrong on this.
If the ship needed to perform extremely sharp turns or if the rudder was damaged, could the Iowas run two engines full ahead and the other two engines full astern (for example the left two props full ahead and the right two full astern to facilitate a sharp right turn)?
Excellent video! Out of curiosity, have the propellers been removed from any of the fast battleships that have become museums? I believe the propellers were removed from USS Texas (bb35)?
Many museum ships have removed their screws, we might do it in a future drydock. Its a lot of stress on the shafts. Not sure about which specific ships though, I believe Iowa might have. I'll check with Ryan and see if he can throw an update out in a future video. - Libby the editor
Alabama has two five blade screws on display. Some if not all of the BBs had props removed for the long tow from mothballs to museum sites. Check out pictures of these tows- the screws are often transported on the quarterdeck.
ah they got you a new lepel microphone nice, yea vibration is not good when you are trying to see over the horizen and shoot, like shaking around when you are trying to shoot, you want it as level and controlable as you can
"the Golden BB" is a term used in some AirForce and navy circles as a hit on a target does abnormally large amounts of damage almost in a fluke like nature. for instance some US AirForce vets from VIetnam would refer to anti aircraft fire that would down an aircraft from a single hit as "the Golden BB" so yes, the torpedo's that took out Bismark's steering could be a "Golden BB" moment
Where would the vibrations generally come from? like was it the shaft, the prop itself, or the engine maybe? just wondering since it was so bad the whole ship was shaking lol
Good question! The vibrations (plural) are very complex & dynamic. They are the culmination of many hidden and partially uncharted at the time nuances involving the amount of horsepower coming to bear on the screws, the length and RPM'S of the shafts, the entire structure of shaft alley (and beyond), the number of blades & pitch of the screws, and even harmonics induced by the turbines & gear reductions. All of these forces (remember for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction), end up working together as a kind of evil orchestra to build up from each other, feed off of each other, even using parts of the ship that the engineers never thought that they could or would, to create this nasty side effect from getting all that power through the gear reduction and into the water to propel the ship forward. It really is a very good question that you asked, and when it came to the 4 So Dak ships, sadly the Navy could never get it worked out with the only thing that was 'easily' modified - the screws. But boy howdy did it have their attention, and a shout out to the engineers who almost nailed it with the Iowa design! "Haul Ass" Halsey appreciated and utilized every effort they made!!
@@skipmountain9283 Including different pressure along the hull at different speed, which will also affect speed and bunker consumption. I wonder how the Queen Mary and Normandie behaved in the same situation though Normandie had turbo-electric machinery and so a far different reduction gear (or nonexistent)
How risky is it to work on the Museum ships? Is there an constant danger of asbestos right now even when the ships just stay still at theire positions? Asking because some navy vets have issues from theire active time on the iowas
I can't speak for all organizations in all places, what I can say is that each local/state/federal government has requirements for toxic materials like asbestos and lead paint. Generally, these materials must be properly sealed or removed by professionals before anyone else can be allowed in these spaces. Generally. Thats certainly how we do it in NJ. But everywhere has its own rules. We find BB62 to be a pretty safe place in regards to that and have precautions in place to be able to report things if we are suspicious that something needs to be checked or checked again. Its not uncommon to see something and check with the experts on it just to make sure everything is fine, though it almost always is, especially when we're in some weird place. But if you have concerns about your local museum ship, definitely talk to the staff before deciding to volunteer or work there.
@@BattleshipNewJersey Thanks alot for your answer. I was a little shocked when i researched asbestos in the USA to find out it is not yet banned. I wish you guys all the best and hope to see this mighty vessel when i visit the states from europe.
The reason, and engineers gave up on the flaw, was the length to beam ratio. Imagine a huge rotating disc distributing half it's harmonic into the weight of the ship, and then side loading into not much ship at all....the length of the ship became an unstable tuning fork. North Carolina was so bad that you couldn't stand on the aft deck at full screw power.
how are the props "attached"\"secured" to the shafts? are the shafts splined or keyed??? also where is the "nut" is the "spinner cone" sorry aircraft reference' removeable?? or is the whole prop threaded onto the shaft ? i have read on german u boats sorry I happen to live closest to msi where u505 is that they filled the prop nut caps with tallow as an added measure to absorb vibrations and sounds whether or not it was effective idk but regardless the "spinner cap" is removeable to expose the legit prop shaft nut. also sorry I'm an auto mechanic are they secured in place any ways with like a cotter pin, bent tangs locking key or something or double nutted or some how lol.
Theres basically a giant nut, and we just found the ginormous (thats a technical term here) wrench thats used to secure it. We're definitely planning a video on the process. Once we do a little research. And uh figure out how to move the wrench. The thing must weight a couple tons. Its HUGE
@@BattleshipNewJersey thats awesome!!!! and ginormous is defiantly correct technical term lmao I really started thinking about this afterwards asnd realized there are still several other ways to secure a prop/pulley/gear whatever on a shaft there's obviously the straight press on pull off there are tapered theres the heat and cool which is similar to press/pull in a certain sense regardless any method on such a large scale would be super awesome to see
The microphone sounds good and your production quality has again gone up.
Thanks friend!
mask needs to go.
@@dave8599 i agree, totally unneeded . looks like you exceed the 6 feet requirement
It would be much better with out that silly mask outside...
I like to put sarcastic comments on the early videos, full well knowing how good the presentation and production skills really are, great work
Once again, as an absolute layman when it comes to naval technology, I'm astonished how many variables have to be considered in constructing a successful ship
The SoDak's also benefitted by the skeg arrangement which allowed them to reduce cross sectional area aft while still keeping the usable beam at the waterline and above. This is what allowed such a short, squat ship to hit 26-7 kts.
Ryan, you made my day seeing you stand in front of that screw that shook my dad but good as they steamed back out of Bremerton to rejoin the fight after drydock in '44, sadly realizing "nope, she's still not fixed!" :) Thank you and your crew on New Jersey, and a big shout out to Steve and his crew at Battleship Cove!!
A good video, once again. You forgot to mention that the SoDak's propellers are all lined up with each other while the Iowa's are staggered.
Props to you for this great video
Hey Ryan, I know where a complete set of Iowa class screws are here in San Diego, CA. They are attached to the propeller shafts under water on the museum ship USS Midway CV-41. They were installed during a major overhaul before 1980. I know that they are there because I got to help identify polishing procedures during overhauls in Yoko Japan. The reason for the upgraded screws was massive displacement increases over the years.
God bless you guys for still making videos to educate us even in less than ideal circumstances. Thank you, a lot of us are huge fans and thoroughly enjoy your work, and the fact that y'all went out of your way to keep giving us these gems is awesome. Keep it up!
Ryan, 2022 with BA.5 that mask is still rocking it. l need that for my N.95 today. The NJ Channel is the best. Keeping it up! Thanks for keeping history alive.
I know first hand what a damaged screw is like. In '79 the USS Stein (FF-1065) ran over something while rejoining the Midway battle group. We had to limp to Diego Garcia at no more than 15kts else the ship felt like it would shake itself apart. There we performed what I understand was only the second at sea (not in a dry dock) screw change since WWII. We also found out that it is impossible to get the Screw Nut Wrench out of the ship without cutting holes into the ship. Fortunately the USS Dixon. that we were tied to, made one for us. Unfortunately we also found out that there are Left and Right turning screws and we were sent the wrong one the first time.
I was taught in Boot Camp SD that ships had Screws, Air Planes had propellers. And we called them that Officially ! Battleship or Destroyer, "The Screws"
"Screws are stopped, Sir, Turning gears in place"
You can call an aeroplane propeller an airscrew as well, so screw and propeller can be and often are used interchangeably when discussing ships
Technically it is a screw propeller.
I feel like "SoDak" would be a great name for one of those "make it at home" soda machines lol. "Introducing the all new SoDak by RyanCo! Flavors include Fuel Oil Fizz, Steam Berry, and Gear Lube Grape"
Too funny my man.
Umm fuel is grape, i was a fueler and our rainbow color was grape, i can still taste the JP5 in my coffe
@@christiantroy3034 That's brilliant!! For the winter collection, there could be a Keurig-type device with flavors like "JP5", "Fantail Wizz", and "Burnt".
Audio sounds good. Also like the way those 5 blade screws look. They just look more aesthetically pleasing than a 4 or 3 blade in my opinion.
Thank you.
Thanks man. Keep up the good work. Enjoy Elohim!
SO glad you do this! I live in Fall River MA, the home of the Battleship Massachusetts (BB59) and they DO NOT offer or do anything like this with that ship.. shameful. Thank You!
The PeriscopeFilm channel put out an old Navy film featuring the New Jersey fighting during the Korean War.
because of how bad the vibration was The North Carolina earned the nickname Showboat, they kept bringing her back in to test prop designs... and they still had to reinforce everything
All stuff I didn't know! Thanks Ryan.
Nice video. The sound was easy for me to hear. Thanks to you and your crew for adding to this kind of historical work.
Boaters have been fighting vibrations from the first time a prop were installed. Balanced props, running gear, gear reductions, shafts, 3, 4, 5, 6 blade props, counter rotating.... I really think it's more hull related then anything. Every one of my boats have a spot that the harmonics just come thorough no matter what has been done. I have one boat that has had had everything replaced from the front of the motor to the prop nut many times, 3200 rpms same harmonics.
Thanks Ryan. Love the video and the backdrop. Much appreciated.
I lived next to a shop that did strictly props from ships and they'd always have the huge doors open and didn't mind people watching from behind the chain. There's definitely an art to machining a huge prop by hand with various power tools.
Big Mamie holds a special place in my heart, having seen her in 1973 when i was 8yrs old. my family traveled from north of detroit to bar harbor maine and we stopped there. my sister was bored out of her skull, my mom found lots of it interesting and my dad, being a Navy Vet from the Korean war enjoyed seeing some navy stuff again after nearly 20 years...
thanks for stopping by and a) your lavalier is working GREAT! b) the descriptions seem to be flowing very smoothly and one day id love to come see Massachussetts "big sister"
Thanks Ryan. Nice job. I never realized that propellers were so fraught with problems!
i only work on vessels from 18 to 80 feet, on those that have had vibration issues, it was always engine alignment or a bent prop shaft or prop damage, if one blade has a minor deviation dissimilar from the rest of the blades, it will vibrate, it doesn't have to be much because hydrodynamic forces are mega super massive
Audio is coming through quite clearly for me, so it looks like that mic's working well for y'all. No issues hearing you through the mask, either!
Interesting content thank you Ryan
Hey Ryan: a quick note to say thanks for all the great content- been enjoying it all from way down here in New Zealand. Keep it up, mate!
Funny story about that over pass that goes to New Bedford, when it was built in the 60's, when it came together in the middle, it was off by a foot or so I heard, my dad is from New Bedford....great place Battleship Cove, always like your videos.....Cheers
I think the one hull-intact military museum ship that has all its propellers removed and dispersed is probably the Intrepid!
They removed the propellers from that aircraft carrier when it was in drydock in 2007.
2 of the propellers stayed in New York on the grounds of the Intrepid museum -- 1 on board, the ship, the other at the entrance to the museum --, the third when on display (outdoors) in Norfolk, VA, and the fourth one is at the Naval Aviation Museum in Pensacola, FL which has a huge collection of artifacts from other aircraft carriers, most of whose hulls were scrapped long ago.
As far as I know, the propellers are still in place for the Intrepid's Essex-class sister ships (Yorktown, Lexington, and Hornet) as well as the USS Midway.
The largest items they seem to keep from ships that get scrapped appear to be propellers and nameplates. I know the nameplates for USS Enterprise (CV-6), USS Forrestal (CV-59), and USS Saratoga (CV-60) were requested and preserved. I don't know about any other ships that had nameplates preserved. Submarines appear to get their sails, sometimes part of their rudder, and propellers preserved.
I think these little production quality improvements like better a better mic are great (although Battleship cove does have a loud location below the bridge, nothing to be done there), if I ever make the visit to the new jersey I'll gladly buy you a beer.
Yeah? What time should I be there?? =)
Skeg is a fun word
Sounds great! Just de-mask and you’re 💯
Another good review!
A point of personal trivia: on a trip to BC in the 90s I had left the Titanic Museum, a short distance from where you're standing (is it still there?) and saw masts sticking up from behind the building behind you. Curious, I took a walk around that building where there was a small quay, and tied up was none other than the "Bounty" replica built for the Marlon Brando remake of "Mutiny on the Bounty." That was an unexpected bonus from my trip, may she rest in peace.
Battleship Cove now owns the maritime museum with the giant titanic model that I believe you're thinking of.
@@BattleshipNewJersey Yes! the Maritime Museum! The 20 ft model and others. It's been 25 years, memory a bit clouded. Thanks!
Volunteers at Battleship Cove told our tour group that all four propellers were removed before arriving at the museum. They said the size and drag of stationary propellers would have made towing her almost an impossibility. Ocean going tugs were not as powerful or agile back then.
Wow. I had not heard that the Iowas had top speed vibration issues. I had only heard of the North Carolinas having that issue...from Drach of course. Great video and good sound too.
Vibration issues got even more intense when the Missouri and Wisconsin were pushed to one knot shy of forty knots. The Iowa's could match speed boats if they really wanted too.
Pssst NJ actually set the record for fastest, not her sisters
@@BattleshipNewJersey Officially, yes. Guides and former crew specified that higher speeds were reached but not on official records.
If the curators and former crew of Wisconsin and Missouri say otherwise then I will gladly rescind my comment.
Thank you.
Heres our video on it: ruclips.net/video/J4Dp-TOAyho/видео.html
What nobody has mentioned until now is that there is a radial flow of water from each blade caused by centrifugal force, if this flow is fast enough there may be a shock wave that impinges on the hull, I was one that got to experience the vibration as we made our transit from Gibraltar to Lebanon
Nice! My old home town! Fall River Massachusetts! BB59
On the Massachusetts, the five bladed Props were on the outboard skegs, while the 3 bladed ones were placed on the inboard. That is what the dry dock pictures show before cleaning and removal. So the Skegs do not have the props on them.
Great Job.
Never heard the Braga Bridge called an overpass...lol...it's a huge bridge
It does pass, over.
@@hamaljay So do airplanes and helicopters are they also overpasses? ;)
Longest bridge in the world...... go from Swansea to Portugal ..Little Lisbon by the Sea (Fall River)
@@Shockedbywater I will argue semantics with you.
The bridge passes over, and airplanes pass over.
But an overpasses is a noun in this context.
A plane can fly an overpass which would be an adverb and verb.
The difference between the usage is one is naming something in the other one is describing what something is doing.
So can an airplane be an overpass, no. Can it fly and over pass, yes.
Can a bridge be an overpass, yes. Can a bridge fly an over pass, no.
Hope that clarifies the grammar behind my thinking.
@@hamaljay You really want to get that technical? LOL I was kidding but since you seem to be serious it is not an 'overpass' it is a bridge as it crosses water. Check you definitions. overpass noun
Definition of overpass (Entry 2 of 2)
: a crossing of two highways or of a highway and pedestrian path or railroad at different levels where clearance to traffic on the lower level is obtained by elevating the higher level
also : the upper level of such a crossing
New Jersey: What exit? Southern New England: Don't worry, we'll just shoehorn in whatever you got.
A retired Canadian Air Force engineer here wondering if the vibration puzzle was ever solved or accurately understood? :) I am thinking along the lines of a cold case file using todays computer modeling or other analysis tools available as it sounds like something a Masters student might do for a thesis.
One other reason propellers are replaced is damage caused by cavitation. At high speeds, pockets of air form behind the blade, which then collapse, which over time causes pits to form in the blade, reducing it's efficiency. Cavitation can also be a cause of vibrations. Attack subs have highly refined blades to help prevent cavitation, because a cavitating blade on a sub is a death sentence in combat.
sounds great
In multi-engine, propeller-driven airplanes, we synchronize all the props to run at the same rpm, reducing vibration. I wonder if that was done on big ships.
love the content! keep it up, looking forward to future videos!
The thumbnail gave me a chuckle. "Screw it".
Ryan, did the fast capital ships of other navies also have vibration issues? By fast I’d say anything 25 knots or faster, in other words leaving out the Queen Elizabeth class.
I said Capital Ship to leave out the panzerschiffe, but include the Dunkerque and Scharmhorst classes, and the ships which the Japanese re-engined to faster speeds.
Question: you mentioned HMS Prince of Whales - that made me think - were there any British or perhaps Japanese vessels that DID deal more successfully with vibration issues than USN vessels? HMS Vanguard maybe?
Excellent work.
Keep going :D
I'm amazed... either 4 or 5 propeller.....
I'm glad you took my advice about the lavalier, great work and look forward to more excellent content!
I don't think he had much choice, half the comment section was yelling at 'em to get one haha
Has there been any modern Iowa battleship propeller vibration studies Would be interesting to see how a modern propeller would help.
This topic recently came up in a discussion with some mates: In the event a large vessel like this needed to stop or reverse, how did the general design (Shape, symmetry) of the propellers affect things like cavitation and the aforementioned vibration? Aside from the shape of the stern and extra drag induced, were the propellers themselves as efficient when required to run astern? Much smaller civilian propellers are of course often shaped asymmetrically and aren't much use if you tried to run them the wrong way. Interested to know how these compare!
And of course thanks for the updates and new videos! Stay safe out there! 👍
Cody: When you reverse the screws at high speed, this generates much cavitation. The screws are much less efficient in reverse. Those are just trade offs of the design. USNR-ret.
@@KB4QAA Very interesting, thank you for the insight!
Is this only the case at-speed when reversing their direction (thus having opposing forces at the screws) or do the same inefficiency issues happen when reversing the vessel from a stationary position?
@@cody4783 The screws don't change shape, so their efficiency doesn't change. In any case, efficiency in reverse is of little concern since ships don't operate in reverse for more than a few minutes.
nice. I live nearby. I wish I knew you were visiting, I'd have come by and said hello.
We recommend checking our community page once in a while, we post updates on where we're headed and some additional pictures and content.
Come to the LCI 713 in Portland
Cool
Take the mask off... your outside dude. Love the videos!
We strongly believe in following all health regulations and, considering our volunteers and staff are primarily in very vulnerable groups, isn't it better to go the extra mile in protecting them?
I don't know how you're processing your audio, but you could try putting it through a noise filter in audacity or a similar program which should catch what gets past your new mic - you could also use it to normalise the volume of the clips so it doesn't vary so much.
The new mic is MUCH better.
Perhaps you or a viewer has checked out of curiosity,.....
....did all the blade-swapping experimentation actually provide useful results or did it turn out that any efficiency/benefit was only on the order of around 1%?
Alternatively, perhaps they found that Configuration #2 solved or reduced the problems found with Config. #1 but introduced new problems.
So they went on to Config. #3 which solved #2's problems but brought back some of #1's AND added new problems.
Wash, rinse, repeat. 😉
While watching this video, a really interesting question popped into my head. How much more effort and work is required to upkeep and maintain the ship in NJ where there are 4 seasons of different weather, i.e. winter with snow and ice, as opposed to ships like Missouri in Hawaii which has basically the same climate year round?
That's a great question! Its definitely something that impacts each sites priorities. So NJ, having winter, it was really important to us to be able to open more interior spaces and allow guests to get in out of the cold and to be open in the winter. Which is certainly aided by the amount of difficulty we have in doing exterior work in bad weather. So our interiors are particularly great in comparison to some of the others while our exteriors are rougher. We just have fewer days to work. That being said, we have found a cool set up to keep laying teak deck year round. The thing to remember is that even when there isn't actual snow or ice, paint and what not doesn't set below a certain temperature so dry and warm is important. Mind you, I'm sure its tough to get work done outside on Alabama in summer because of the heat. Especially with our typically older volunteers. Unfortunately, NJ has all 4 seasons unlike most of the BBs.
@@BattleshipNewJersey I see a future video on this subject
We might have to wrangle our friends from elsewhere to help. Stay tuned
mic sounds fantastic!
One might add that battleships weren't the only ships which vibrated... Normandie for example, was famous for having the shakes!
I'd love to see what a fully modernized battleship would be like but im aware that the navy (probably) won't ever do it. But redesigned big guns and modeern missile systems would be a force to be reckoned with. What do you think?
"Never ending fantasy speculation". sigh.
Love the vid! Why does the NJ have a golden propeller?
It is interesting, but not really surprising, that many of the great transatlantic liners-- roughly the same size and same speed as contemporary battleships-- had similar problems with vibration, ameliorated with propeller changes and hull stiffening-- much of the stiffening in the form of massive wood beams in inaccessible parts of the ship.
Another awesome vid, you really got your money’s worth on Mass
Mimi? I've heard the Massachusetts referred to as Big Mammie before, but not mimi, is that what you meant, or did you just teach me somthing?
You are correct sir i stand corrected
Mic sounds great
engines and steam system. how much are they connected? for instance can a ship not have steam yet still have engines. and are there museum ships that have their engines still running or steam systems operating?
Next you go up Massachusetts you should check the uss salam the last heavy cruiser
We really wanted to and we just ran out of time, theres so much to see at Battleship Cove! We spent three 18 hours days there and still didn't get to see everything there, nevermind any field trips
So, was the vibrations caused by unbalanced propellers?
I know on the SS Badger, you can the the RPM by the pulse you felt through the decks.
I have seen many blueprints of the USS Midway with Inboard Skegs like the Iowa’s and on the Midway museum itself they have a model of it with inboard Skegs. But some blue prints and drawings from its later years do and don’t have Skegs and I have seen photos of the Midway without them. I’m just curious to know if anybody knows when and why they where removed and or if it was every designed with them. Thank you
Planes have propellers; ships have screws
New mic sounds good to me :)
Did the propellers turn counterclockwise on the NJ or clockwise.
On a multiple screw ship, assuming an even number of screws, half will turn clockwise and half will turn counterclockwise in the ahead direction. That is done to eliminate the side thrust that would be generated if all screws turned in the same direction. On a single screw ship the screw will rotate clockwise in the ahead direction. That means there will be a tendency for the screw to "walk" the stern of the ship to starboard and as a result the ship will turn tighter to port than she will to starboard. Clear as mud? :-)
@@minarchist1776 No Mike, just clear. I did not know how to frame the question correctly, as I was (am? lol) a relative ignoramus in ship propulsion dynamics. I did suspect that screws turned in opposite directions but I didn't want to make a complete damn fool of myself if my musings were wrong. I think Bismarck attempted to steer using differential screw speeds but maybe that was a case for being able to adjust prop shaft rotation directions in propeller gearing design. Would differential prop shaft adjustment, i.e clockwise to counterclockwise theoretically be able to steer a ship if the rudder was disabled? Thanks for the reply!
@@XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX981 A ship, at least those in service with the U.S. Navy, that has multiple shafts and screws can have them going in different directions. In other words, the shaft(s) on the starboard side could be set to try to move the ship forward and the shaft(s) on the port side could be set to try to move the ship backwards, thus forcing the ship to turn to port. However, that is something that is only going to work at relatively slow speeds. Or at any rate the ship will be going relatively slowly after you have half the screws trying to move her backwards.
While I suspect that Bismark could have done that sort of thing, with her rudder jammed to one side she would need to have some of her screws trying to move her backwards to counteract that all the time while she tried to move forward using only half her propulsion plant. She might have been able to go more or less straight as a result, but she would have been hard pressed to escape a rowboat, let alone the Royal Navy. They probably decided not to do that with the idea that going fast in a circle would make her a harder target than going ahead in a straight line slowly.
Did they ever experiment with 6 blade screws?
Apparently, as per Google, SS Great Britain had them, and apparently some more modern ships have had them fitted.
Note these are civilian designs though, a quick search doesn't seem to indicate any militerys that will admit to using them.
Edit: the US Navy originally fitted them to Thresher/Permit-class SSN's and found them unsatisfactory, same as with Brunels Design. So it would appear to be a very inefficient/ noisey/ vibration prone design
Very interesting, Ryan.... This may be a stupid question but were the South Dakota's props balance in any meaningful way?
Russ
What lining material was used for the propeller shaft extenders, pock wood, nylon, something else?
Thanks, great video, again!
Roland V: From my 1970's navy training, the bearing material is an African wood called Lignum Vitae. Extremely hard and water resistant. Off the top of my head I recall a replacement material being found in the early 1990's(?). No idea what has been used in recent decades construction. Hadn't thought of that in ages. Thanks for the memory recall! b.
@@KB4QAA Great! Thanks!
Do we get a an April 1 video of a Battleship tournament of Battleship museums, with giant pegs on the ships for hits?
We have spent a long time planning April 1s video. Be prepared. It will be most excellent.
@@BattleshipNewJersey Looking Forward to it!
Yay, lapel microphone!
I was taught as a boy that ships did not have propellers, air planes did and that the proper word to define them is 'screw;. can you elaborate/explain?
Its more slang than actual official terminology.
I was taught in Boot Camp SD that ships had Screws, Air Planes had propellers. And we called them that Officially !
"This is my Rifle, This is my gun"
Not to bust your chops or anything but the Prince of Wales, only had two screws so both were technically outboard. It would have been more appropriate I believe to say Portside. I don't remember clearly but I've got a fifty-fifty chance of being right! Otherwise great presentation. It does perplex me as to why there was as for vibration problem. I would think from the pure engineering standpoint it would be worth going back over the blueprints to try and figure it out to prevent the problem from occurring in the future. Maybe give a few minutes of cray time! I wonder if those are problems with a lack of rigidity in the shaft and its mountings. Perhaps bearing size? Something was taking those propellers and creating an out-of-balance condition. Shaft Flex could possibly do that. Just point of view
You usually are top of things pretty good. But you dropped the ball on the amount of screws POW had. It was four screws, not two. Not busting your chops John but you are wrong on this.
@@73Trident My mistake, Was thinking Nelson-class instead King George V-class. I stand corrested
@@73Trident BTW Thank you.
can you show how the large shells were brought on board
With a crane, by helicopter, or highline from another ship
If the ship needed to perform extremely sharp turns or if the rudder was damaged, could the Iowas run two engines full ahead and the other two engines full astern (for example the left two props full ahead and the right two full astern to facilitate a sharp right turn)?
Short answer, yes. Long answer, only in.an extremely dire situation.
Excellent video! Out of curiosity, have the propellers been removed from any of the fast battleships that have become museums? I believe the propellers were removed from USS Texas (bb35)?
Many museum ships have removed their screws, we might do it in a future drydock. Its a lot of stress on the shafts. Not sure about which specific ships though, I believe Iowa might have. I'll check with Ryan and see if he can throw an update out in a future video. - Libby the editor
@@BattleshipNewJersey thank you!
Alabama has two five blade screws on display. Some if not all of the BBs had props removed for the long tow from mothballs to museum sites. Check out pictures of these tows- the screws are often transported on the quarterdeck.
Seeing a Ships propeller especially the bigger types are an awesome piece of Engineering with the work involved to make them .
I have now come to associate Green Pullovers with Battleship New Jersey now. God help me.
We bought matching ones for the department for Christmas
@@BattleshipNewJersey Yesssssssssss
So what was the root cause of the vibration?
200,000 odd shaft horsepower and imperfect design and manufacturing.
Ryan is made for RUclips.
ah they got you a new lepel microphone nice, yea vibration is not good when you are trying to see over the horizen and shoot, like shaking around when you are trying to shoot, you want it as level and controlable as you can
👍👍😎
1000 lbs warhead on a Long Lance is a golden bb? 😆
"the Golden BB" is a term used in some AirForce and navy circles as a hit on a target does abnormally large amounts of damage almost in a fluke like nature.
for instance some US AirForce vets from VIetnam would refer to anti aircraft fire that would down an aircraft from a single hit as "the Golden BB"
so yes, the torpedo's that took out Bismark's steering could be a "Golden BB" moment
I wonder how the old prop got damaged
Where would the vibrations generally come from? like was it the shaft, the prop itself, or the engine maybe? just wondering since it was so bad the whole ship was shaking lol
Good question! The vibrations (plural) are very complex & dynamic. They are the culmination of many hidden and partially uncharted at the time nuances involving the amount of horsepower coming to bear on the screws, the length and RPM'S of the shafts, the entire structure of shaft alley (and beyond), the number of blades & pitch of the screws, and even harmonics induced by the turbines & gear reductions. All of these forces (remember for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction), end up working together as a kind of evil orchestra to build up from each other, feed off of each other, even using parts of the ship that the engineers never thought that they could or would, to create this nasty side effect from getting all that power through the gear reduction and into the water to propel the ship forward. It really is a very good question that you asked, and when it came to the 4 So Dak ships, sadly the Navy could never get it worked out with the only thing that was 'easily' modified - the screws. But boy howdy did it have their attention, and a shout out to the engineers who almost nailed it with the Iowa design! "Haul Ass" Halsey appreciated and utilized every effort they made!!
@@skipmountain9283 Including different pressure along the hull at different speed, which will also affect speed and bunker consumption. I wonder how the Queen Mary and Normandie behaved in the same situation though Normandie had turbo-electric machinery and so a far different reduction gear (or nonexistent)
Cool presentation, but obviously you could improve your sound quality without on obstruction on your face.
Great content 👍
How risky is it to work on the Museum ships? Is there an constant danger of asbestos right now even when the ships just stay still at theire positions? Asking because some navy vets have issues from theire active time on the iowas
I can't speak for all organizations in all places, what I can say is that each local/state/federal government has requirements for toxic materials like asbestos and lead paint. Generally, these materials must be properly sealed or removed by professionals before anyone else can be allowed in these spaces. Generally. Thats certainly how we do it in NJ. But everywhere has its own rules. We find BB62 to be a pretty safe place in regards to that and have precautions in place to be able to report things if we are suspicious that something needs to be checked or checked again. Its not uncommon to see something and check with the experts on it just to make sure everything is fine, though it almost always is, especially when we're in some weird place. But if you have concerns about your local museum ship, definitely talk to the staff before deciding to volunteer or work there.
@@BattleshipNewJersey Thanks alot for your answer. I was a little shocked when i researched asbestos in the USA to find out it is not yet banned. I wish you guys all the best and hope to see this mighty vessel when i visit the states from europe.
Asbestos is definitely banned in large parts of the US. And has been for a while. Doesn't mean it isn't still out there though.
The reason, and engineers gave up on the flaw, was the length to beam ratio. Imagine a huge rotating disc distributing half it's harmonic into the weight of the ship, and then side loading into not much ship at all....the length of the ship became an unstable tuning fork.
North Carolina was so bad that you couldn't stand on the aft deck at full screw power.
how are the props "attached"\"secured" to the shafts? are the shafts splined or keyed??? also where is the "nut" is the "spinner cone" sorry aircraft reference' removeable?? or is the whole prop threaded onto the shaft ? i have read on german u boats sorry I happen to live closest to msi where u505 is that they filled the prop nut caps with tallow as an added measure to absorb vibrations and sounds whether or not it was effective idk but regardless the "spinner cap" is removeable to expose the legit prop shaft nut. also sorry I'm an auto mechanic are they secured in place any ways with like a cotter pin, bent tangs locking key or something or double nutted or some how lol.
also friggen love the content super awesome best out there
Theres basically a giant nut, and we just found the ginormous (thats a technical term here) wrench thats used to secure it. We're definitely planning a video on the process. Once we do a little research. And uh figure out how to move the wrench. The thing must weight a couple tons. Its HUGE
@@BattleshipNewJersey thats awesome!!!! and ginormous is defiantly correct technical term lmao I really started thinking about this afterwards asnd realized there are still several other ways to secure a prop/pulley/gear whatever on a shaft there's obviously the straight press on pull off there are tapered theres the heat and cool which is similar to press/pull in a certain sense regardless any method on such a large scale would be super awesome to see
@@BattleshipNewJersey eagerly awaiting giant wrench video.....