HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 16 июл 2024
- NOTE: The newer V2 versions of the NanoVNA are NOT suitable for crystal testing due to the short measurement cycle they use. The unit used in this video is the NanoVNA-H4.
This video shows several methods for measuring crystal parameters using the NanoVNA and other tools. Timeline:
0:00 Introduction
0:10 The Basic Crystal circuit model
0:58 The measurement reference paper by K8ZOA
1:44 The Equipment Used
2:36 The Measurements & Methods used
3:00 Tips for using the NanoVNA for Crystal measurements
3:49 Defining C0 - the holder capacitance
4:43 Measure C0 with the AADE L/C Meter
5:11 Measure C0 with the DER EE DE-5000 LCR Meter
5:30 Measure C0 with the NanoVNA
6:19 Summary of C0 results
6:28 Custom 50 ohm "thru" fixture for the NanoVNA
7:29 Overview of NanoVNA traces used for crystal measurements
8:50 Measure Rm with NanoVNA
11:08 G3UUR Method for Cm & Lm
12:42 NanoVNA Phase Shift Method for Cm & Lm
15:07 NanoVNA -3dB Method for Cm & Lm
17:01 NanoVNA Series/Parallel Method for Cm & Lm
18:50 Summary of results
Link to the K8ZOA paper:
www.mikrocontroller.net/attac...
Link to the G3UUR test oscillator build video:
• #123: Build a crystal ...
Link to the video notes pages:
www.qsl.net/w2aew/youtube/crys... 
Наука
My wife is watching NCIS while I watch this, she can't understand why I like this, I can't understand why she likes crime shows, but we sit next to each other with our headphones on and spend the night together on opposite ends of the entertainment spectrum. Sometimes we find a show that is in both our -3dB bandwith we can watch together. Haven't figured out the equation for that one. Thanks for the interesting video.
73
N9EUQ
Opposites attract. It's a universal law.
Sounds familiar! There are many shows that my wife and I enjoy together. But, when it comes to "her" shows - that's when I retire to the shack to ragchew or pound the brass.
It's a sweet part of marriage to ignore each other's entertainment choices.
As I am watching this video, my wife is watching a hunted house show on Crave, One question, do you have both of your dogs (if any) in the middle seat of the coach between you and your wife? We have been like that for years, I used to run my flex 3000 remotely from the laptop in the living, now I run my Hermes Lite the same way. The trick for a long and loving union is to respect the other side choice. She like Bingo and girly movies. I prefer technical show and action movies. We sometimes like the same movies, but not very often. But As soon as I talk to her or she talk to me. we put our stuff in pause and we talk.. That is showing respect.. all comes back to this.
@@pierremartel3552 Indeed!
When I bought the NanoVNA, I thought I was only going to use it for checking my antennas. Alan, I definitely have learned from your videos that there is a lot more analysis you can do with this little analyzer. I appreciate the effort you put into your videos, and how you go about explaining what you’re doing. Thank you es 73!
Where can i buy a good nanovna? Original one is too expensive for me. I am looking for a good quality copy.
@@requiem4adreamc they have copies on eBay but do research first
So many people speak negative on this little gem... I'm pretty confident that all those people spent big bucks on industry analyzers at 400+ a pop. Lol such an amazing little tool so many things you cna do with it
Wow- very thorough and impressive
All his videos are thorough and impressive.
The crystal holder really brought back memories. My father had a bunch of them and used to etch surplus crystals to get what he needed. He also built a lot of his own equipment. I can't remember his W3 call but he got WB2PTU in the mid 60s and wrote a bunch of articles under that. Later he had W2IJL which I have now. He would have been amazed at the NanoVNA and the TinySA.
HP 15C, a classic. Thanks for the information, great as always.
I owned one of those and still have an HP 48G. I now have that as an app on my phone which is very convenient.
I have an HP-15C and it is a wonderful little calculator.
@@brucesmith9144 I still have a 41CX, and a 41 CV on my phone. I recently came across an HP42 program, so I installed that one, too, just to play with it. I just now looked for a 15C program, but the two that I found are $9.99 and $16.99, and my curiosity doesn't go that far. There is, by the way, an improved 41 clone available, from a Swiss company if I remember correctly. I should probably buy one in case my HP goes bad.
the phone apps for these classic calculators are great -- so nice to be able to continue to use that muscle memory of the RPN
Excellent video! Thanks, Alan - Jim
This video truly motivated me to buy the nanovna. Thank a ton Alan.
Just remember that the newer models (V2, V2plus4, etc.) are not suitable for crystal characterization since the output is pulsed. The -H4 that I used here works well.
Hi Alan,
You have a knack at making the complex easy to understand. Enjoyed another masterly taught session. You and the family stay safe. 73 WJ3U
Watching this yet again - absolutely a go to resource! Thanks again :)
I’ve been researching Crystal filter design for a home brew receiver and one of the guys I chat to on the local Sunday morning top band net pointed me towards the Dishal software and the paper you described. He also said I could use my nanoVNA so Since I’ve watched a number of your videos on the this gizmo I started here. As usual, I wasn’t disappointed, thank you. And the guy I speak to on the net? Dave, call sign, G3UUR. I guess he ought to know 😉
Oh wow - speaking with the master! I wonder if Dave ever watched my videos?
@@w2aew I’ll ask him next Sunday 😄
I’ve recommended your videos to quite a few locals who’ve bought the nanoVNA, especially the presentation you did to the GQRP club convention this year. I’m a member and made sure to watch that live I learnt a lot. Thanks.
Excellent. Not only did I learn how to do measurements on crystals, but I also learned a bit about how to use a VNA.
Thank you for sharing your solid experience as an Electronics Engineer and the well structured approach of the topics you address.
Thank you Sir for sharing your knowledge with us. Greetings from Poland!
Again You do present the remedial electronics I need for my own projects. Love the test circuit boards you describe.
Really nice presentation 👍
I need to watch this a few times as there is a lot of good information for this old brain to absorb. Thanks very much.
Nice summary of crystal measurements. Thanks for the presentation.
All your videos are pure gold. Thank you.
Very informative video
A great video and very good demo of measurement metodes
Pretty pragmatic and thorough! Thx so much for bringing us this useful tutorial!
Tons of fun. Thanks for a very interesting project. It is really appreciated.
Dude, i am obsessed with your videos, keep watching them over and over again, learning something new every time, endless source of knowledge that is! So please, more videos :)
PS. I got NanoVNA and DER EE LCR meter just beacause of you! so i can keep up with the videos hehe
And if i may have a request, would you mind doing a video about RF shielding (when/what/why to shield) Thank you again very much and God bless you!
Again the greatest explanation for very useful measurement! Thank you so much!
I don't understand what is so useful about it. Where would I use any of this?
@@stargazer7644 Everywhere check the crystals, tune the antenna, tune the filters and much more en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_analyzer_(electrical)
Another great explanation!
Excellent treatment of crystals. I just discovered your channel and really liked this video. I just noticed your comment about the short measurement cycle. Same issue with the big analyzers; they need to have the measurement time stretched out considerably.
Excellent video. Thank You.
I like your shielded Tektronix probe pointer.👍
Excellent video, thanks.
Great job! Thank you.
Every time you post something it's always useful. 73 NE5U Mike
Thanks for the impressively thorough, and well presented video. I just got a litevna and am very impressed with what it can do. I thought I might "need" a better device than this, but it is plenty powerful for everything I currently want to measure.
Helpful information
very good explanation ! thanks
I don't know why I'm subscribed to you or how my notifications got turned on. But here is a like and a comment.
I just showed my husband and he said he must have subbed on my phone on accident. 😂
great .. thank you .... greetings from North-Sweden, Carlo SA2KHG
Users may want to take note that the newly released NanoVNA V2 Plus 4 model has a warning stating it cannot be used to measure crystals because the source signal is rapidly pulsed. This also prevents it from being useful as a signal generator.
Oh interesting, I didn't know that about the V2 plus 4.
@@w2aew This is the latest official, not cloned, model according to this link: nanorfe.com/nanovna-versions.html The only place that seems to have it in stock right now is Aliexpress, official NanoRFE Store. It's in a nice aluminum case, features 4" display, 4x faster sweep (400 points/s) frequency range to 4GHz and up to 80 DB dynamic range to 3GHz.
Do you have a link or source for that warning? I had plans to by the V2 Plus 4, but when that is true I will stick to my H4 and V2.
@@PH2LB On the official webpage of the V2 units, there's a note just below the specification table (about 2/3rds the way down on the page):
nanorfe.com/nanovna-v2.html
@@w2aew I need new reading glasses because I have read that page but totally looked over the note. Thanks for pointing out. ,👍
Alan, Honestly, a lot of what you cover is "over my head," but could you make a future video showing how to _properly_ use the DE-5000 LCR meter? While I said "over my head," I still learn from all of your videos and that's why we're here!
Try the NanoVNA Saver software, practically unlimited points and you can export the files so that other people can play with them. Very nice tutorial, as usual.
I use a 4 to 1 transformer fixture and the nanovna saver software can analyse -3db points automaticly. Is good when you have to measure loads of xtals for a filter
Great Video. I like the Way you explain Things. Thumbs UP !
Greetings from Germany
DB1IAT
Excellent video, saved !!! Thanks a lot for these extremely well done tutorials, as it happens I bought a bag of 8.215MHz crystals and prepare to sort them for building some SSB/CW filters. If you have or can make a video about building such a filter, to compete with Inrad ;), it will be great.
Thank you
The NanoVNA Test Board Kit can be used for these measurements as well (available at R&L Electronics if you don't want to role your own as Alan did). And an old standby is W1FB's crystal measurements box (similar to the G3URR circuit) but primitive compared to what can be done now with the VNA! Thanks Alan for sharing, great letdown! 73 - Dino KLØS
Letdown?
@@w2aew Damn autocorrect! Great LAYDOWN! ;-)
That is quite a video. I hung in there the best I could : ) It's interesting that anything with mere-mortal equipment could be used to calculate Femto-anything at all.
I wondered if several crystals could be placed in parallel for a more measurable Holder-capacitance reading, overcoming the lead/fixture capacitance, likewise with the Holder inductance, but in series, of course. I thought that if several were measured together they also might be average out the manufacturing tolerances, in the same way that DMM manufactures place resistors in parallel to gain better accuracy.
I was surprised that the NanoVNA could measure fairly close to your LCR meter readings. I am trying really hard not to buy one. Money is tight for me, but still they look like a lot of fun. If you ever communicate with the people who make the software, please ask them to implement an anti-aliasing option, so whenever the the device display is static, it will look better.
BTW, when studying all of LeCroy's TDR/SI videos, Eric Bogatin said that one of his students/accomplices discovered that the ground (return) pins on a SMA connector are one of the biggest problems with high-speed test fixtures. Apparently, the little grounding (return) legs are also little antennas. For higher speed, soldering the edges SMA connector itself, and cutting off the legs might allow it to reach a few more GHz.
BTW, they are PCB-Centric, but Nine-Dot has a lot on SI: ruclips.net/channel/UCretWCYM5SDLWVD3Lgb-BBg
And the Aforementioned Eric Bogatin has a lot on TDR, but each video must be signed into for individually: www.bethesignal.com/bogatin/
...He plugs Lecroy's wares, but has has a lot on interpreting/anticipating the readings--especially in the frequency domain.
As one would expect, Oliver Heavyside, as in Step Response, admittance, elastance , conductance, electret, impedance, inductance, permeability, permittance, and reluctance--moved his granite furniture indoors, and painted his fingernails : )
Ref: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oliver_Heaviside#Later_years_and_views
Very clear and instructive presentation. I'd suggest including the unloaded Q of the crystal although it's fairly trivial since you have all the needed parameters. - WA5BDU
Thanks Alan. Check out the opensource NanoVNASaver software. It's more convenient to use the NanoVNA that way. By the way, by any chance have you used the Touchstone files? If so it would be great if you could make a video explaining some basics. Your lectures are irreplaceable!
Excellent !
Many thanks for yours explanations.
Very instructif.
73's QRO
F5HPQ
Are those precisely calibrated ‘reference crystals’ still available then, even though people no longer cut their own crystals in the way that you’ve described? This is pretty cool. I wonder if it could be done the other way around then? If we had such an accurately calibrated crystal reference, we could test and calibrate the circuitry which you’ve used here to take your measurements!! Also, Theres a HUGE number of more experiments still that come to mind in which you could use these measurements for! It’s very likely that you’ve persuaded someone to buy an LCR meter or one of those NanoVNAs. Thanks a bunch for sharing!! Very informative!
Great didactic material. Many thanks. 73 de YO2MNE
Thanks for the detailed explanation and demo of your fixtures. Extremely helpful as always.
I was wondering, does these methods (except the Colpitts oscillator method I think) extrapolate to a planar coil as well? I have had to measure L, Cp and Rs parameters at frequencies greater than 100kHz. I have a DE-5000, but as you know this only goes up to 100kHz. However, I do have a NanoVNA and a SAA2N.
Hi. Interesting info!! I have some issues with crystals not starting in already assembled boards, many of them. We suspect low quality crystals or that they’re overheated during production. Test production was ok , but after some time we had problems with circuit in general, that resonator 26MHz doesn’t start up when we lower the temperature like from room temperature to 15 C or lower. On working ones it works fine all the way to -20 that we have in freezer. There could be crystal fault but too low capacitors as well. Do you know what parameters change when crystals are overheated? Our application is low power, generator starts for 15ms periods only
Niice.
Mmmmmm... Capacitors next? :-)
By which I mean... it seems to me that the capacitor model must be quite similar; you did talk about them having both inductance and capacitance, and we know there is ESR, and self-resonance... I was just wondering if similar analysis could be done on the nanoBox to discover some of these parameters. Just curious. Maybe only for very low values?
I just need a way to test my crystal to see if its working as it should. I put it inline and run it thru vna. The trace shows me the correct frequency that it is resonate at. Does this mean the crystal is good? Excellent video!!!!
Hey, nice video. I have a NanoVNA coming soon. I have watched a few videos and after
the 'measuring xtals video I am curious if there is a version of the firmware that allows one to set, control and read the vna thru the USB port?
Dan/NO1SE
Very helpful. I would only add that it would be nice if you included the units you are using for Fr (MHz, KHz,Hz) and how to scale the output so it results in mH and fF. I did the math and worked backwards to get your results and the required multipliers.
Tnx,
Dale W4OP
The equations shown in the notes assume that you are using absolute units. So, pF would be x10^-12, frequency in MHz would be x10^6, etc.
nice HP 15C rpn :)
That motional resistance (crystal ESR) value seems to me quite low. Would have expected at least few tens of ohms.
Also would be interesting, if you could run all this once again, but with a crystal where the motional parameters are known - they are usually published in a datasheet, so we could check accuraccy against that.
Man I wish I could take a electronic course with you
How do these measurements relate to the load capacitance specified when you order a crystal?
I remember pulling those crystal holders apart as a kid wondering what the heck was going on in there, the army surplus shop had boxes of them left over from WW2
Can I ask how you calibrated your nanovna with the fixture? Open seems obvious, but I don’t know about short/load.
Thanks for the great videos!
I simply used a small piece of wire for the short, and a small leaded resistor (with short leads) for the load, and plugged these into the fixture into the center-pin and ground sockets.
What is the differences between Motion Capacitance & Motion Inductance compared to just Non-Motion/normal Capacitance and normal Inductance? I don't know what makes capacitance or inductance into "motion" capacitance and motion inductance
Could you do a video on testing the front end of a receiver with oscilloscope and sig-gen? Correct signals to feed into antenna input, attenuation etc, measurements?
For the most part, the signals you'd apply to the input of a receiver are too low in amplitude to measure with an oscilloscope.
I dont even do any radio-stuff, yet I bought a NanoVNA just to measure inductors and such at different frequencies. Tells me more than a standard LCR meter and is cheaper.
"dont even do any radio-stuff" Be Careful about the exposure levels : )
The radio people such as our host are very knowledgeable and great teachers, was one of the reasons why I am pursuing my Technician and General licenses. Mr Carlson, and IMSAI Guy are great, too.
Hello Alan, I just followed your instruction to measure 36Mhz crystal parameters. What I measured were : fs = 35'993'780 Hz , phase 9.41 deg. fL = 35'989'303 Hz, phase 54.41 deg. fH = 35'996'900 Hz, phase -35.59 deg. My question : is that normal that the phase of fs is 9.41 deg, not near zero degree ? Thanks.
Excellent explanation. What firmware are you using for the VNA? Thanks
I was using v1.0.39 from DisLord.
@@w2aew I haven't updated the firmware on mine, yet. What does that give you, aside from more points in the display? I have the makings of a test fixture here that I've been deferring, I think I'm getting close to needing to do something with it. :-)
🙏🙏🙏❤️🙏🙏🙏
Always enjoyed your videos. Just got a VNA for my wedding anniversary (wife got a $100 chef knife). Been measuring all sorts of things but got stuck on my T50-43 cores. I get a nice Permeability v. Frequency curves but they cross in the wrong place. Either Arrow.com sent me the wrong cores or I messed up. Could you show how to characterize ferrite?
This is on my long list of future topics...
Does anyone remember the different lapping patterns and using paper to lap your "rock" to frequency for the crystal holder??? Hmmm must be getting old, but then 400 Mc (thats right cycles) was just a dream except magnetrons and klystrons... Oh well
Hi Alan, I have three questions for you:
1. How did you calibrate SOLT your fixture?
2. How did you measure the C stray capacity of your fixture?
3. How do you explain the frequency difference between S21@ phase 0
And S21@ minimum?
73 de iw2fnd Lucio
1) at these relatively low frequencies, using axial leaded 50 ohm for Load, and a short wire for Short, work well enough.
2) I used a LC meter (AADE LC meter and the DER 5000). You can also use VNA with Smith Chart.
3) They look pretty close to me - any small difference likely due to parasitics.
Thank you for the quick reply! Can I eventually contact you via email? Do I find it on QRZ.com? By the way I really like your content, it’s really helpful, so keep up the good work!
@@lucioattolini9597 Yes, I am good on qrz
Dose anyone know of a link to a binary version of DiSLord 1.0.39 ?
All I have is the .dfu
@@w2aew The dfu would be perfect. Got a link or I can give you my email
@@nethoncho groups.io/g/nanovna-users/files/Dislord%27s%20Nanovna%20-H%20Firmware
@@w2aew Thanks for the link. I joined the group also 😎
I think this is one of those instances where narcissism actually helps the video.
Is there any way I can buy or build an AADE meter? It seems really accurate and robust
Sadly, the designer, producer of the AADE meter passed away several years ago.
That doesn't mean the meter has to die along with them, does it? Surely the schematics can be derived from existing meters and passed along from engineer to engineer
@@milesprower6641 Schematics might be able to be derived from an existing unit. Also, the firmware for the microcontroller would have to be captured as well.
Could you please tell me what is this Nano VNA?. Is this an instruments you made? is it for sale? would it help me with my work?
Watch this video and judge for yourself.
Hey bud,
Is there somewhere you recommend we start with this subject?
I’m an Aussie electrician, we learn about inductance/capacitance and some resonance so not entirely from the beginning, but a bit of the last half dozen videos, is a bit too far
I think I came here from eevblog or something oscilloscope music channel
Try this playlist: ruclips.net/p/PLB9A78ED3D7EF1AE5
what is the scan resolution that this nanovna can achieve?
It depends on the firmware you are running. Scan resolution will be the span / number of trace points. With later firmware on some units, you can get 401 trace points. If you use the unit with the PC software, you can achieve much higher resolution.
@@w2aew Thanks for the answer. With this model "NanoVNA-F V2 Vector Network Analyzer Upgraded 50KHZ-3GH" would it be possible to get 401 points?
@@wendersonrodrigues8415 I don't know if there is a firmware upgrade for that unit that gets you more than the standard 101 points.
yay, I'm first :)
This was great. Now I can measure these, I feel compelled to learn how to use them. Or did I miss that video? For God's sake don't make me read something!
If you get a chance I would appreciate your explaining core saturation on common mode chokes . I spent a few months trying to solve the following problem . On a 100mb/s Ethernet line when running POE ( power over Ethernet ) everything worked fine on short cable lengths . The longer the line became as I approached the 100 meter max length , the worse the noise became and link failed at +- 70 meters . After many months of head scratching the FAE from Wurth in Japan said “ turn the transformer around so the common mode choke is on the PHY side and not the line side “ . Everything worked ! . I still have no idea why 😬. www.we-online.com/catalog/media/o119953v446%20Tutorials_Connecting%20LAN%20Transformers_EN%20(rev1).pdf
How come you used the Nano H4 and not the Nano V22?
Because I could use 401 points on the H4 and only 201 points on the SAA-V2.
H4 allow work from 800 Hz. Up to 100MHz have ~100dB dynamic range in S21 measure. More fast. I think it better up to 300MHz.
This seems like a great tutorial but the terminology goes out of my reach as I'm but a simple parasitic organism over-schooled in organic chemistry with only rudimentary skills in electronics. Do you have a definition of "motional" as I have never seen that parameter in my unsophisticated world? Operationally, what does it physically describe?
A piezo-electric crystal is an electro-mechanical device. It physically vibrates (or responds to vibration). The "motional" inductance/capacitance are the electrical components that model the properties of the physical motion of the crystal (unlike the crystal's mounting or fixture capacitance, which has nothing to do with the crystal element itself).
@@w2aew That's essentially what I thought but I didn't want to assume, because, you know...
And, please correct me if I'm wrong, but maybe one could say the ""motional" inductance/capacitance are the electrical components that ARE modelLED BY the properties of the physical motion of the crystal" if I understand what you're saying, but, otherwise I'm still a bit confused.
I could imagine the arithmetic to do that but it is beyond what I recall.
@@twosheds918 Since there aren't physical capacitor/inductors, these are purely used to model the electrical behavior of the crystal. These are not parasitic properties, but just modeling the resonant behavior.
Hi Alan
Just bought a nanovna and exploring uses.
I like your test pcb and would like to make one.
I have a question though, what sockets do you use to plug the dut into?
Someone on the GQRP mail list has suggested a sprung socket www.mouser.co.uk/ProductDetail/571-5645500-1
Others suggest a 0.1” header socket snapped off. Do you have any recommendations?
Thanks
Bob
GM4CAQ
I've used both of those types of pin sockets. The AMP ones you show in the link are good. I've also used similar ones from Mill-Max. These sockets are generally deeper and accept a wider variety of lead/wire sizes than a header socket, but they are more expensive.
@@w2aew
Thanks for the info Alan don't mind paying a little more to make a good pcb. Keep up the good work, I have been motivated to get the H4 by the video you gave to the GQRP convention and I am not at all sorry. I also have the FA-VA5 that I built and the nanovna is so much easier to use. Stay safe. Bob GM4CAQ.. in lockdown.. again!
تو دانشمند هستی. من هم می خواهم باشم . یادم میاد یک روزی میگفتم خدایا میشه من انگلیسی یاد بگیرم چون این زبان ، زبان علم هست ، خیلی وقتها چه در گذشته چه در حال میگم میشه من هم مثل این اقا الکترونیک را در این سطح چه بصورت تئوری چه عملی یاد بگیرم ،بگم که من الکترونیک را بدون تحصیلات دانشگاهی همین طوری ادامه میدهم کتابهای الکترونیک دانشگاهی را هم مطالعه میکنم و بطور عملی هم کار میکنم ، من خیلی الکترونیک را دوست دارم .
Hi Alan, thanks for an interesting test method! Are you using the “standard” nano vna firmware or a version more suited for xtal measurements? The nanorfe website of the developers states that because of a very short measurement cycle the standard nano vna is nor suited for xtals or xtal filters. They point to a special firmware for that purpose, written by somebody else.
The "V2" variants of the NanoVNA are the ones that have difficulty with crystals due to the short measurement cycle. I am not using a V2 in this video.
@@w2aew Good to mention this. In the comments some people seem inspired to get a nanovna after watching this video. If they get a new one, it is most likely a V2.
@@robertvandersanden Thanks, I added a note to the Video Notes.