It's not all about boost pressure, but instead about boost pressure at a given flow rate. Since this turbo is designed to feed a 14l engine it has to move a lot of volume. If you use a smaller turbo you will get the same pressure with much less power. Just pretend you are trying to feed a 2.8l engine. It would take 7 times less volume at a given rpm to achieve a given pressure.
@@aaronhumphrey2009 it's not really critical if your turbo is too big you can run a wastegate on the intake side. I was running a 1900hp v-15 vortech with a wastegate for 700-1500hp with no issues. If you have the parts just use it...
@Uru-petrol nonsense... it has merit in a world without conversion losses. Now, it may get to a point technologically where using an electric motor becomes more efficient, but this has been done a lot and it's never really shown itself to be practical. Basically, this has been tried and we're just not at the point that we need to be technologically.
Uru-petrol i never said the future wasnt electric lol.. i said this has been tried on ICEs before and its not near as efficient as conventional means of forced induction. With advances in technology this could become practical but its not currently
hegh More parts means more maintenance, less durability and more energy to make the pieces. forced induction seems outdated when there are engines that do not need it.
DO NOT mount the motors in the intake air stream! If anything comes unmounted, it will be sucked into your fan, destroying blades and/or your entire charger! I would tap off a bit of the outflow and rout it back to your motors. BTW: A turbocharger driven by an external motor is not a turbocharger, it is a supercharger :)
electric superchargers have existed for decades, and they don't work worth a fuck. too much lost energy through all the conversions. Turning heat into torque then to electricity back to torque and heat just to rotate the turbo that would have already been spinning from the parasite nature of how they are designed. Turbo's harvest the wasted heat an engine produces. External drive is less efficient now matter how you slice it.
Turbo chargers don't harvest heat, and they don't run off of heat. They run off of exhaust gas flow! Set one on a work bench and heat it up with a torch and it won't turn at all.
Diesel Ramcharger Your entire comment did not have a single true thing about turbos in it... A proper electric turbo like in the audi rs8 clubsport prototype is revolutionary. Hybrid systems using electrical power have long shown their dominance over the conventional drivetrain.
"Still expanding" exhaust gas is kind of an important turbo charging concept. They are in part run by energy that would otherwise be wasted - not just the pumping action of the engine.
this is absolutely awesome, you can actually change the car modding and manufacturing scene FOREVER! if you are planning on launching something like a kickstarter count me in!
I’ve used brushless outrunners in a few RC projects over the years such as drones and they still impress me today with the amount of power they have for their size.
When dealing with DC circuits, most people would not have thought about eddy currents but of course they have to be considered because of the rise and fall created by the commutator. Happy to have found your channel!
I think some of the points are a bit off, you're free flowing with a reduced nozzle and the result is some static pressure buildup in that cone, but the psi you're getting is less than it would probably make when attached to an intake since that would result in the air being forced in a confined space and therefore less flow. I would measure the maximum pressure you can achieve by choking down the exhaust (progressively until your motor can't keep up with the required power) and you'd also need to measure the flow at various boost levels - you can calculate how much an engine would flow at various rpms (displacement/2 x rpm) and cross reference your chart with that to find what boost you can actually produce, the more rpms on the engine the less boost you'll see but more flow.
The power required depends air flow times pressure rise, so maximum power occurs at some intermediate point between zero flow and maximum flow. Also if you choke off the outlet too much you will likely get into the surge region which is not good. The outlet of a compressor should not normally be throttled. Bear in mind too that engines are hungry for air and benefit from unrestricted air flow. This is why performance tuning of engines often does fancy things to the air intake system to get better flow.
if it's unrestricted then the boost is zero, the compressor flow has to be more than the cfm intake of the engine to build an excess of air and that's the pressure differential, otherwise you just achieve 100%VE at most.
You have it completely backwards. In a "closed" intake, there wouldn't be MORE resistance than atmospheric pressure, there is less. Intake valves create vacuum. As soon as you floor it, the motor would die because this setup could never push the volume of air needed to keep it running. Even if you had a strong enough electric motor to do it, the power required would totally negate any benefit the turbo provided. This is physics 101.
Im sure someone has said it before me, but this would be a good way to avoid turbo lag, especially for smaller everyday vehicles that can be tricky to drive for inexperienced drivers. If you added some sort of clutch mechanism perhaps you could even disconnect the electric motor once the engine produces enough exhaust gases to drive the turbo at sufficient speeds. This would give you a nice power curve and a really nice driving car Great project!
CME you do realize that won't effect drive wheel power right?? Like sure you'll give the power plant (fuel engine) more zest but it won't effect the drive (electric) motor(s). They will receive the same ammount of power and not faster either lol. You won't accomplish anything by slapping a turbo on a hybrid vehicle unless it's direct drive which there really aren't any types of direct drive setups. Almost every hybrid has got a battery bank and capacitors and other stuff inline to regulate power management.
Johnny Cline Umm sir.The smart car is directly powered by a turbocharged 0.8l gas engine. It could work,since engine displacement is so small.But it is not efficient to use electric turbochargers.Maybe stick a few solar panels up on the roof. P.S. The real deal for adding engine power easily is HHO gas.I ran one of those electrolysis chambers on car that was destined for junkyard,and it felt like adding atleast 30hp.Althrough detonations are way too strong for regular gas engine,so it developed rod knock in less than 10 min.
Johnny Cline i fitted an e turbo prototype on my ct200h hybrid, and it works. It would take lots of ecu modification to get it running properly. As of now, it only works when the pedal is floored because the ecu doesnt limit power when its at max. I wired the motor to a small vfd running off the 550V battery. It should peak at 20kW and gets the car to 312bhp. I scrapped the system because it completely trashed the gearbox. It had to suffer from three times the design load.
drkastenbrot well what would you expect. General hybrids were not meant to modified due to the mass complications that arise from improper or cheaply executed mods. If you guys want to make a hot rod follow the design concept of a modern GP locomotive. We build a haha truck that uses the same principles minus a shit ton of batteries and it's got an insane ammount of torque. Not much speed to it as it's set up to hop rocks but out on the flats i bet you won't find anything that can touch it. There's just so much power at each wheel lol.
after that rant you gave, Johnny, i wouldn't listen to a fuckin word you had to say. lmao. You show a blatant lack of basic reading->comprehension, and an abundance of thinking about things off the topic. The BEST two options would be showing humility, or just leaving.
This is the future. Brushless motors and motor speed controller are getting better and better every day. Only down side is where to mount a capacitor system that can supply enough power without straining the alternator and adding too much weight. And the motor speed controller would have to communicate with ECM that way the right amount of boost is added based on engine sensors, transmissions sensors ,abs, and stability control systems. This could be the future for combustion engines before full time electric vehicles take over completely. Good video man.
IIRC turbochargers have bearings designed to be always lubricated by a flow of engine oil, and they tend to get damaged rapidly if the engine fails to deliver proper oil pressure. Not sure how this relates to your build though.
Considering the lower amount of power, short duration, and the fact that there are no hot exhaust gasses heating the compressor side, I don't think he destroyed this one :p
From what i understand there are sealed bearing turbos. How they work ive no clue. But suposedly they do. Because ive heard of people installing turbos and specifically talking about how nice it was to not haf to plumb in oil
We did a direct drive coupling ET. The bigger the engine the bigger the gains. Love you belt drive, it quiet and good power figures. The best we got was 0.2 bar with 14volt from alternator and 100amps demand. Power gains was between 25% up to 40%. Torque figure not horse power. We ran out of air on the new mustang V8 engine so we increased the turbo compressor side with good result. Well done great project. Madi electric Turbo still in the game.
TMM exactly. He is having trouble achieving the aimed results with a massive turbo intended for a massive engine with tiny motors. If he used a smaller turbo from a smaller engine he'd have much more relative and accurate results as the tests would be within the efficiency range of the compressor maps.
+bleachinuri Its not that its old (the designs haven't changed much at all), its that its massive compared to a typical car turbo. Like he said, 150+ HP just to drive the compressor, a lot of cars don't even have 150 HP... A small turbo would have a different outcome (although you still probably want 20 HP at the minimum even for a tiny little engine to get 5 PSI boost). Age had almost nothing to do with its efficiency, the "new" ones are almost identical in design unless you are talking about the state of the art 3d laser printed titanium variable vane turbocharger found in the $1+ million dollar Koenigsegg ONE, but that's a pretty big exception... The basic shape and design of turbos and turbines have been around for a super long time (the jet engine we use in our small stealth bombers have almost identical turbine blades, though smaller because its a smaller engine. You can in fact turn a turbocharger into a jet engine if you were wondering, its pretty cool)
Jake Garrett no I work on Cummins engines for a living have for 30 years, that's an old turbo, and it's an inefficient design, and yes diesels use variable nozzle turbos these days, some with exotic metals in them
So how does that material change his results? If we made it out of gold/platinum/titanium or possibly even cardboard, it wouldn't make a difference, its not running hot like a real turbocharger. They have been snail shaped geometer for a super long time, and for a fixed output (like an electric motor at max, as opposed to an rpm and volume changing combustion engine), then there is absolutely no benefit to having a variable turbocharger, and engineer would simply size it for that exact power and flow output. He is using the wrong size turbo, plain and simple. That's my point, its a huge turbo/super to be trying to run electric. The biggest changes are precision and balancing of impellers, better oil systems, improved waste gates, and variable (not needed for this application). The only thing that would really change it is if its super wavy and unfinished/rough pathway on the inside, but surely they sandblast these at least back then. Geometry changes are more to do with how you want your compressor mapping.
Actually, it's not heat, but pressure that powers turbos. The problem with that set up, though, is that it causes back pressure on the entire system, it requires the motor to run at lower compression, (at lower engine rpm) the motor doesn't produce enough pressure to drive the turbos impeller effectively (spool up time), and normal turbos run all the time, but are only really needed during hard acceleration. Oh, and the plumbing can be a mess! Using a clutch activated, high output alternator to charge large capacitors during slower driving, could be used to power an electric turbo for the 5 to 10 second bursts that it's actually needed and the entire system would be a lot more efficient. Unfortunately, there is still a ton of issues that need to be sorted out first.
You're wrong about low compression. They usually use low compression pistons to minimize possibility of detonation, but all you have to do to avoid detotation is keep manifold pressure within manufacturer's limits. Have a turbo on a 9.7:1 Lycoming. Works fine, everything went to overhaul times with, no burned pistons or blown heads. "turbos needed only during hard acceleration." Utterly false. In a turbo normalized aircraft application, the turbo is used only at altitude, and most of the time spent at altitude is cruise. The higher you cruise the harder the turbo will be expected to work. You must be an infantry type. If you learn by youtube, go to greg's airplanes and automobiles and watch his vid on WWII turbocharging and supercharging. btw, electric turbo charger is an idiot misnomer. The thing does not have a turbine. It's a type of electrically driven supercharger.
As a rough estimate, about 0.4 cubic meters per second, based on turbo maps from similar turbochargers. At full speed it should produce about 1.5 cubic meters per second.
Boost PSI is the restriction of air flow though the engine. If 6000 engine rpm was 10 psi , 3000 rpm would be 20 psi If there was nothing after the turbo, there would be little to no boost pressure .
About 6months ago I told a friend who been a mechanic that this exact project would be nice.. He proceeded to explain why it was a dumb idea since I supposedly did not understand how a turbocharger worked.. Thanks man, you proved me right!! Maybe I'll try it in my next car :P
I'd be more interested in knowing the CFM it delivers at that max power :-) That is an easier ballpark guestimator for how much power boost to expect (for a given engine and it's peak CFM)
This type of thing is used in hyper cars and formula1 racing. It’s called something like a precharger or electronic boost assist. They use it to build boost before the exhaust output is enough to build boost off the engine.
Very interesting. What this experiment demonstrates is how much energy is wasted in engine exhaust. It takes a lot of power to run electric motor, but engine exhaust spins it up basically for no cost. Cool
Realistically to hit the full ~ 50 PSI @ ~ 1000 - 1200 CFM a turbocharger like that could push you would need about 170 - 200 HP which when scavenging energy off the high temp high volume exhaust of large 14 liter 400+ HP diesel is possible given the overall engine efficiency gains given by the added boost cancel out the added fuel and power consumption of pushing the exhaust against such a load.
@@vitalliy5559 There's medications that make concerns like that a lot less 'concerning'. Maybe you should look into them with a much interest as you do casual non formal text punctuation.
Amazing project!!! Really hoping to see another update!!! This is a similar project to what I want to do, and it’s very interesting to see one that actually produces a little boost!
All the T-50 variants use hydrostatic bearings which require oil at about 50 PSI to prevent the journal from contacting the bearing and wearing. Additionally, turbocharger rotating assemblies generate thrust forces due to secondary flows of boost and exhaust behind their respective impellers. These thrust loads largely compensate for each other, but in the absence of a turbine, the hot side thrust face will see higher loading than normal. The T-50s have GIANT single piece bearing assemblies, so they can take a lot of abuse, but if you decide to test at higher speeds, oil will become necessary. Rock on!
Turbocharger compressors are used by companies like Inovair to provide high pressure process air. A large AC induction motor drives a V-belt system, which turns an increaser gearbox, which then drives the blower. (You need revs for pressure.) You could make a walk-behind blower for the shop, or rig up some PVC pipe to blow water off the top of your car.
Make a jet engine, add a tube so the compressor blows down the middle, allow air to enter next to the nozzle, add fuel and flames If it doesn't hae the power to drive the car, it would be an awesome weed killer
Love the high-speed shot. I used to throw snowballs into the exhaust stream of an F-15 fighter on the engine run pad. Those were some powerful engines. The snowballs just disappeared. Good times.
jesu christ there seem to be lot of air comming out of there... i cannot belive this cannot feed a car engine ?! and what about having a big supercapacitor charged by the car alternator and then when needed (pressing gas pedal) super capacitor make spin the brushless motor that make the turbine spin and so creating psi for more engine power. does that make sense? reply me pleasee :D
Its not about feeding the engine with air. Engine does not need to be fed with air. The goal is to have enough power to be able to compress in extra air, so that you can pump in more fuel and still be able to burn it all.
@@ibbz6932 obviously but don't you think this electric one can't build pressure ? it seem to shoot out prettry crazy fast to me can't belive any N/A engine sucking that amount of air event a 7k rpm ?! maybe im wrong but idk... and it seem pretty strong enough to build pressure ?
SwapSupra Typically, turbo engines run around 6-12 and turbodiesels even higher, as opposed to the one in the video at 1.7psi. And your idea of a supercapacitor would work, just not as practical as batteries in my opinion.
@@ibbz6932 my english is not the best for understanding everything in this video, i got that part where it shown 1.7 psi but there was almost no restriction on the end of that turbo (intercooler,piping,intake minfold, valve opening and closing etc..) the air is just free flowing right trough that cone. add restriction like all mentionel above and i bet it would probably go for 6-8 psi. what do you think? i just trying to have hope in a setup like this haha
SwapSupra You’re right. The pressure would rise at the expense of air flow, but in order for this concept to work, you would need high pressure and high air flow same time. You also need fast response. The answer to this is obviously power. Think of it this way. This is a motor that came out of a vacuum cleaner. Can a vacuum cleaner provide extra boost to a car engine? I highly doubt that. For comparison, the sq7 tdi uses a 7000w motor that can spin its turbo (not sure the size difference) from 0 to 75,000rpm in just 0.25seconds. So to sum it up. This concept already does work, you just have to be kind to physics. Hope this helps 👍🏼
Audi are doing something similar, not for primary boost but to start spooling early to overcome turbo lag. They use liion batteries in series to get more than 12v.
Seeing comments for and against a turbo running off of heat. The correct answer is that a turbo runs off of heat and pressure, it's called enthalpy (a system's internal energy plus the product of its pressure and volume). This is part of the simplified gas law and is a property of every thermodynamic system in reality.
Doctorbass here! Hi Tesla500, That is really interesting test. in fact i built a system for a friend project with a 50kW Zero motor ( the 75-7R) and 28s cells at 650A. When we properly tuned the gear ratio between the impeller of the C38/71 modified supercharger and the motor and used the max power at 4000rpm at the motor and 90000rpm at the blower shaft, we acheived 30PSI with alot of flow!!! in fact the flow was so intense than all tiles of the floor in my garage flew in the air!!!!!
Doctorbass! I'm a big fan o your work! That sounds like a very interesting project you did with your friend! Do you have any more info on the project, any links or anything? Did your friend fit the supercharger to an internal combustion engine and get it on a dyno?
if u block it complete it would no nothing but rev to the moon ..then when u let go it will release the kenetic energy from over reving .. when i landscaped we used to drop closed pine cones down the tube with back pack blowers by covering them .and launch them at each other
Tesla500.... Have you considered using a belt pulley or gear system to minimize the force needed by the motor and double the fan speeds, instead of using direct drive?
This is very similar to how the current year Formula 1 engine turbochargers work. Mercedes has a nice visual of how they create theirs in this video: ruclips.net/video/l2_eTLCz_3I/видео.html Glad to see you tinkering around and posting videos again!
The current generation of F1 cars are using electric motors to keep the turbo spooled. Plus, it is also used to supply power to electric motors attached to the crankshaft. There's always electricity moving, either from motors to batteries, from batteries to motors, or from motor to motor. The 1.6L 24v V6 spins at a maximum of 15,000RPM.
Errr... engine power is NOT all about boost. Its mass air flow ;) A large turbo can make more power with less boost due to many other factors too such as a less restrictive exhaust housing etc..
Leroy Baker clearly you nothing about how engines work... pressure is a sign of restriction.. more air more power and that can be acheived with low boost and a large turbo
Jarryn Smith not really the intake manifold and intake runners in the head don't change. So it's still 7 psi manifold absolute pressure versus 14 psi. 14psi will make more power. Bigger turbos help at higher rpm. Boost pressure is measured in the manifold so if all you change is the turbo it will make the same power at the same boost level. You are right that a big turbo at 7 psi might flow more cfm than a small turbo at 14 psi. All that goes out the window once mounted to an engine.
Lach I'm not sure if your talking to me or not. All im saying is for example a 62mm turbo at 14psi and a 78mm at 14psi on the same engine just swapping the turbo they are going to produce similar hp numbers. The bigger turbo might be able to carry the boost out to higher rpms but there won't be a drastic difference in Max hp as long as the smaller turbo was properly sized. People think a big turbo at 10psi will make more power than a small turbo running 20psi. Boost is measured in the manifold. If the manifold is the same size and volume for both turbos then psi is psi regardless of what turbo produces it. Yes bigger turbos can flow more air. The cylinder pressure is all that matters. 20 psi in the manifold is the same regardless of which turbo created it.
An interesting and easy way to calculate copper loss and arrive at a close approximation of the mechanical power for that motor. I tend to do it in a more difficult way (calculate percentages and such) I learned something, thank you!
Andrew Delashaw Usually but most superchargers are self contained. With the heat of the exhaust turbine removed, the burning up a bearing is much more difficult.
You can use the electric power on a smaller turbo to pre-charge a bigger turbo and quickly get the main turbo to spool quicker, you will virtually eliminate turbo lag!
Maybe you should just mount a gasoline powered leaf blower in your truck with a 4inch piece of dryer outlet hose hooked up to your intake. All joking aside it would probably work better than ANY electronic blower.
@@dispatchts907 the only production car I know of that uses an electric blower is Volkswagen and I believe they use the electric blower to spin up belt driven turbo chargers. I've seen quite a few dyno tests with these Electric gadgets and they never seem to make any power.
A 6KW electric compressor done right, should work assuming you powered it separately. But why would you when you can get “free” power from the exhaust. In a hybrid car this could seem feasible for short bursts of power. Although maybe the power would be better off being used to propel the car. IDK, but I don’t think this has been experimented enough yet, so I applaud him for experimenting.
Interesting how electric motors are constantly the end goal. That turbo engine will get smoked by electric cars that don't need a turbo .Last 100 years "we'll just use an electric motor to start the engine, another spinning to generate power, clear the windshield (and some headlights) some in the doors, antenna, mirrors, seats, climate control, headlights that blink, and doors that close themselves, ..."
no one is denying that electric motors are more efficient, or convinient than gasoline engines; the reason we have electric motors powering all those auxiliary systems and a gas engine propelling the car is: 1. When cars became popular, gasoline was a more convinient source of portable energy than batteries. 2. You need a powerplant to turn gasoline into electricity; electric motors can't run on gasoline. 3. If you already have a big gasoline powerplant it is more efficient to just funnel that power directly to the wheels, instead of having a larger than necessary alternator so you can feed electricity to an electric motor. When you use batteries for your energy instead of gasoline, it then makes sense to propel the car with an electric motor. Of course all those auxiliary features are powered by electric motors in either case because it would be an engineering nightmare to do otherwise: think about trying to route hundreds of tiny driveshafts and transmissions throughout the car to feed mechanical engine power to the door locks, power windows, windshield wipers, and so on on demand; or maybe having a miniature, nitro-sized engine performing each task, each with a fuel line to the gas tank (and an even tinyer electric starter).
Thank you , thank you O brother of mine. Thank you for all of those days and nights spent just in the mathematics alone. Sir , what ever drove you to take the time to put this out there , I thank :) Only because the way I think and process things . One 1/4 of your video just gave me a missing piece to my big puzzle . God bless bro see you on the flip side keep on keeping on!
how much pressure could it generate and how loud is it? this just wonder if i could build an air compressor with a small turbo and a bl/dc motor wich runs much more quiet than the piston based compressors out there!
I do not agree with you with regards to all electric turbochargers are useless, dude THOSE THINGS ARE USED IN NEW AUDIS, it gets the turbos to rpm quick with extra power eliminating turbo lag almost completely everywhere! Back to your stuff, calibrating a fan is a precise exercise, you are turning the biggest fkin turbo I have ever seen, compared to that the motor u are using is tiny... That is wrong an inefficient for many reasons, for one with an electric supercharger you want your fan to get to full rpm as fast as possible to properly calibrate the injector and turning that is hard to do with a rediculus turbine designed to charge 14liters with enough compressed air for up to 4k rpm with air in a heavy hauler, well thats a lot of fkin air. The problem multiplies coz these kind of truck turbos are really only effective and efficient in a narrow rpm range and your 6kw motor is not even close to achieving that or even 5% of that. Rpm numbers together with power draw would also differ a lot from your measurements and boost amount would change too much in a wide range with your "setup", now add to that the slow fan speedup and with these characteristics calibrating the injector would become hard to say the least or even impossible, if you could succeed to make it work somehow what you would achieve proly is a huge turbolag that is always present. Fans are designed for specific power and rpm to be efficient and so achieving higher boost than your demonstrated setup did at 6kw would be most likely doable maybe with a quality 70mm fan even at around 2kw and easily surpassed by a quality! 90mm fan with high blade count paired with the right 4kw+ motor. for such a purpose the motor is preferable that has higher kv for the fan slightly so it only reaches optimum rpm when the engine intake is sucking properly at full throttle with steady vacuum and that way boost levels could be managed on the "top end" and at the lower end or with light loads it also could be managed with a fast early spinup to a boost level that is gradually decreasing as the engine's rpm rises at full throttle . I'm planning a mod like this for a while now, will be using a bike engine around 800cc with a 70mm ducted setup, a generator that is around 2.5kw for the 2kw-ish fan, all calibrated with "power commander 5". My engineer friend made some educated guesses and he said I could possibly get +20-30% max power and more at lower rpms, it is possible that even the combustion chamber needs to be slightly larger just like when putting on a real turbo only not by that much. It got a little long but I hope this helps you make a decision as to how to proceed, actually using your motor together with that huge turbo could be made to work on a smaller engine I think, more or less like it does in the new audis but only if it was an exhaust driven full turbo at the same time. Cheers from Hungary and good luck!!!
Ra40Rob Well, biturbo would mean that there are 2 turbines driven with exhaust gas so unless that is the case it is not a biturbo. It helps the turbo as you say, makes the lower rpms shine for sure but it has to work on full load as well as far as I know, If not than that would mean the electric motor is put on some freewheeling mechanics, honestly I dont know for sure but it wouldnt make sence to me, it would be just unnecessary(again not sure, Im just spitballing here). If they are not freewheeling then they have to work on full load too, taking over during gear changes or coming out of a corner the turbo can spin up quick for example trying to provide a more steady boost in the entire range. So its a turbo with a capable helper, someone to lean on other than just some exhausted gases, those are lame. :D:D
The best eTurbo claims 1psi and costs $4000. Obviously, a car engine has a ton of spare horsepower to run a turbo especially as that turbo boosts its power. But, I'm wonder, if using a cap and matching the volume requirements would it be feasible to boost a few PSI for sporadic quick starts.
I was wondering since you said you were going to use motors for an electric ducted fan if the EDF units used in remote control jets would be enough for an auto application? I mean I've seen some EDF's online - granted very expensive ones that claim 50+ lbs of static thrust - and being that it's composed of readily available components you can get at any online hobby retailer this would make for a very easy project if the numbers work out. Would this be a plausible? I ask because I'm no mathematician or electrician so I don't know how much thrust is needed to produce enough boost for an auto application. What is appealing is if enough boost could be created it could be a a simple on/off device like nitrous and all you'd have to do is recharge the li-po batteries that power these fans.
Nice clip and very good machine abilities. Just to mention to calculate everything in linear model can be very misleading in fluid mechanic and power efficiency. Many motors start with higher current but continue with much less current once they start to rotate.Another factor to think about is the volume of the air the turbo delivers at a given pressure which can be crucial to get the job done.
Question is could you hook up the exhaust side to turn a generator to power a battery pack for this one and therefore eliminate turbo lag and increase turbo response 🤔
What’s the end game with this? Move something with the thrust? Help a combustion engine make more power? Mount it on a vehicle and use the thrust to move it? The video was apparently an attempt to estimate the power required to spin the turbo to a specific rpm In order to estimate net gain in its intended application, so what is that application? I guess I’m also asking are we concerned with the CFM output of the turbo or the psi.
Hey, did you end up testing those small rc aircraft motors? I couldn't see a video on that? I'm experimenting with a different way of operating a turbo charging system and am interested to see if those motors worked?
Probably missed it in the video... I didn't see where you mentioned what type of motor that is. Obviously not stepper motor, but perhaps that could improve efficiency?
Very interesting. I'll admit, I was skeptical at first but you've done your homework and know what you're doing. Props to you for that. Subscribed and interested to see more
Very cool! I was really wondering whether we’d get to see how much magic smoke your ESC contains, lol. As with most things they are over-rated or only rated under very specific conditions as far as the number of motor poles, RPM, amount of time permitted, and load on the motor. I’ve seen way too many ESCs catch fire, and suddenly your wires are red-hot when the MOSFETs short out.
It's not all about boost pressure, but instead about boost pressure at a given flow rate. Since this turbo is designed to feed a 14l engine it has to move a lot of volume. If you use a smaller turbo you will get the same pressure with much less power. Just pretend you are trying to feed a 2.8l engine. It would take 7 times less volume at a given rpm to achieve a given pressure.
2.8l is a pretty specific displacement. You aren’t referencing a 1st gen s10 with their smaller 2.8l v6 are you? Lol
Turbo's work best for in a certain rated Cubic Foot per minute ( CFM) range. It's therefore critical to get the right size for the motor..
nailed it
@@aaronhumphrey2009 it's not really critical if your turbo is too big you can run a wastegate on the intake side.
I was running a 1900hp v-15 vortech with a wastegate for 700-1500hp with no issues. If you have the parts just use it...
Pump gasoline into the output stream for awesome flamethrower perhaps!
so much yes... do this
Yessssssss
or an awesome jet engine
Basically an after burner.
You've given me a very bad idea...
Ahh the old flabby arms in the breeze test of Turbo efficiency, nice....
I am amazed a nonlubricated shaft at 20k rpm didn't sieze shear and shred the compressor.
kleetus92 Exactly! nobody else seems to mention that
He machined his own shaft and put in ball bearings instead.
when did say anything about bearings? I heard him say he made a shaft, but nothing about bearings.
kleetus92 he didn't say anything about bearings I don't think but he did talk about making the aluminium housing.
kleetus92 somewhere around 2:00
Great project! The water pour shot was really nice.
Applied Science use electric motor and goodbye lag and gearbox... More torque and efficiency and air does not affect its performance.
@Uru-petrol nonsense... it has merit in a world without conversion losses. Now, it may get to a point technologically where using an electric motor becomes more efficient, but this has been done a lot and it's never really shown itself to be practical. Basically, this has been tried and we're just not at the point that we need to be technologically.
hegh the four strokes have nice sound and good autonomy in the rest loses. The future is electric.
Uru-petrol i never said the future wasnt electric lol.. i said this has been tried on ICEs before and its not near as efficient as conventional means of forced induction. With advances in technology this could become practical but its not currently
hegh More parts means more maintenance, less durability and more energy to make the pieces. forced induction seems outdated when there are engines that do not need it.
DO NOT mount the motors in the intake air stream! If anything comes unmounted, it will be sucked into your fan, destroying blades and/or your entire charger! I would tap off a bit of the outflow and rout it back to your motors.
BTW: A turbocharger driven by an external motor is not a turbocharger, it is a supercharger :)
Sunshine_Shooter Electriccharger? The next best thing of 2018??
electric superchargers have existed for decades, and they don't work worth a fuck. too much lost energy through all the conversions. Turning heat into torque then to electricity back to torque and heat just to rotate the turbo that would have already been spinning from the parasite nature of how they are designed. Turbo's harvest the wasted heat an engine produces. External drive is less efficient now matter how you slice it.
Turbo chargers don't harvest heat, and they don't run off of heat. They run off of exhaust gas flow! Set one on a work bench and heat it up with a torch and it won't turn at all.
Diesel Ramcharger Your entire comment did not have a single true thing about turbos in it...
A proper electric turbo like in the audi rs8 clubsport prototype is revolutionary. Hybrid systems using electrical power have long shown their dominance over the conventional drivetrain.
"Still expanding" exhaust gas is kind of an important turbo charging concept. They are in part run by energy that would otherwise be wasted - not just the pumping action of the engine.
Those bearings wont run long without oil
Jonney 804 thats what i was thinking. Whreres the oil pressure?
Jonney 804 Good point
those bearings will last ages since there's no exhaust turbine
VL_TURBO420 metal on metal with no oil will die very quickly, having no turbine makes no difference at all
Sealed bearings
this is absolutely awesome, you can actually change the car modding and manufacturing scene FOREVER! if you are planning on launching something like a kickstarter count me in!
How are you not going to call this video, "Will it blow?"
Chris Gammell the turbos rated to push 50 psi he could only produce 1.7 psi. Thats a big turbo
he literally says psi
I’ve used brushless outrunners in a few RC projects over the years such as drones and they still impress me today with the amount of power they have for their size.
Battery charger? I think you mean non-adjustable welder
When dealing with DC circuits, most people would not have thought about eddy currents but of course they have to be considered because of the rise and fall created by the commutator. Happy to have found your channel!
When will you do a part 2?
I'm super excited for part 2. I'd love to see this thing running at full RPM.
I think some of the points are a bit off, you're free flowing with a reduced nozzle and the result is some static pressure buildup in that cone, but the psi you're getting is less than it would probably make when attached to an intake since that would result in the air being forced in a confined space and therefore less flow. I would measure the maximum pressure you can achieve by choking down the exhaust (progressively until your motor can't keep up with the required power) and you'd also need to measure the flow at various boost levels - you can calculate how much an engine would flow at various rpms (displacement/2 x rpm) and cross reference your chart with that to find what boost you can actually produce, the more rpms on the engine the less boost you'll see but more flow.
The power required depends air flow times pressure rise, so maximum power occurs at some intermediate point between zero flow and maximum flow. Also if you choke off the outlet too much you will likely get into the surge region which is not good. The outlet of a compressor should not normally be throttled. Bear in mind too that engines are hungry for air and benefit from unrestricted air flow. This is why performance tuning of engines often does fancy things to the air intake system to get better flow.
You simply can't measure the psi without a closed system. That turbo should be doing close to 70psi if properly measured
if it's unrestricted then the boost is zero, the compressor flow has to be more than the cfm intake of the engine to build an excess of air and that's the pressure differential, otherwise you just achieve 100%VE at most.
You have it completely backwards. In a "closed" intake, there wouldn't be MORE resistance than atmospheric pressure, there is less. Intake valves create vacuum. As soon as you floor it, the motor would die because this setup could never push the volume of air needed to keep it running. Even if you had a strong enough electric motor to do it, the power required would totally negate any benefit the turbo provided. This is physics 101.
Im sure someone has said it before me, but this would be a good way to avoid turbo lag, especially for smaller everyday vehicles that can be tricky to drive for inexperienced drivers.
If you added some sort of clutch mechanism perhaps you could even disconnect the electric motor once the engine produces enough exhaust gases to drive the turbo at sufficient speeds.
This would give you a nice power curve and a really nice driving car
Great project!
Now you open a Patrion so we can donate you money.
Then you take that money,buy a smart car and fit this shit inside.
CME you do realize that won't effect drive wheel power right?? Like sure you'll give the power plant (fuel engine) more zest but it won't effect the drive (electric) motor(s). They will receive the same ammount of power and not faster either lol. You won't accomplish anything by slapping a turbo on a hybrid vehicle unless it's direct drive which there really aren't any types of direct drive setups. Almost every hybrid has got a battery bank and capacitors and other stuff inline to regulate power management.
Johnny Cline Umm sir.The smart car is directly powered by a turbocharged 0.8l gas engine. It could work,since engine displacement is so small.But it is not efficient to use electric turbochargers.Maybe stick a few solar panels up on the roof.
P.S. The real deal for adding engine power easily is HHO gas.I ran one of those electrolysis chambers on car that was destined for junkyard,and it felt like adding atleast 30hp.Althrough detonations are way too strong for regular gas engine,so it developed rod knock in less than 10 min.
Johnny Cline i fitted an e turbo prototype on my ct200h hybrid, and it works. It would take lots of ecu modification to get it running properly. As of now, it only works when the pedal is floored because the ecu doesnt limit power when its at max.
I wired the motor to a small vfd running off the 550V battery. It should peak at 20kW and gets the car to 312bhp.
I scrapped the system because it completely trashed the gearbox. It had to suffer from three times the design load.
drkastenbrot well what would you expect. General hybrids were not meant to modified due to the mass complications that arise from improper or cheaply executed mods. If you guys want to make a hot rod follow the design concept of a modern GP locomotive. We build a haha truck that uses the same principles minus a shit ton of batteries and it's got an insane ammount of torque. Not much speed to it as it's set up to hop rocks but out on the flats i bet you won't find anything that can touch it. There's just so much power at each wheel lol.
after that rant you gave, Johnny, i wouldn't listen to a fuckin word you had to say. lmao. You show a blatant lack of basic reading->comprehension, and an abundance of thinking about things off the topic. The BEST two options would be showing humility, or just leaving.
This is the future. Brushless motors and motor speed controller are getting better and better every day. Only down side is where to mount a capacitor system that can supply enough power without straining the alternator and adding too much weight. And the motor speed controller would have to communicate with ECM that way the right amount of boost is added based on engine sensors, transmissions sensors ,abs, and stability control systems. This could be the future for combustion engines before full time electric vehicles take over completely. Good video man.
IIRC turbochargers have bearings designed to be always lubricated by a flow of engine oil, and they tend to get damaged rapidly if the engine fails to deliver proper oil pressure. Not sure how this relates to your build though.
Considering the lower amount of power, short duration, and the fact that there are no hot exhaust gasses heating the compressor side, I don't think he destroyed this one :p
He is using a marine one.
From what i understand there are sealed bearing turbos. How they work ive no clue. But suposedly they do. Because ive heard of people installing turbos and specifically talking about how nice it was to not haf to plumb in oil
It needs oil and preferably with some pressure
He removed the center section containing the ceramic laminar flow bearings and seals. I dunno what he's running now but it should be fine for testing.
We did a direct drive coupling ET. The bigger the engine the bigger the gains. Love you belt drive, it quiet and good power figures. The best we got was 0.2 bar with 14volt from alternator and 100amps demand. Power gains was between 25% up to 40%. Torque figure not horse power. We ran out of air on the new mustang V8 engine so we increased the turbo compressor side with good result. Well done great project. Madi electric Turbo still in the game.
Pretty sure the equations of power, pressure and rpm are all very non linear and very dependant on the geometry of the turbo.
TMM exactly. He is having trouble achieving the aimed results with a massive turbo intended for a massive engine with tiny motors. If he used a smaller turbo from a smaller engine he'd have much more relative and accurate results as the tests would be within the efficiency range of the compressor maps.
That turbo is from the 70's, it's old and inefficient
+bleachinuri Its not that its old (the designs haven't changed much at all), its that its massive compared to a typical car turbo. Like he said, 150+ HP just to drive the compressor, a lot of cars don't even have 150 HP... A small turbo would have a different outcome (although you still probably want 20 HP at the minimum even for a tiny little engine to get 5 PSI boost).
Age had almost nothing to do with its efficiency, the "new" ones are almost identical in design unless you are talking about the state of the art 3d laser printed titanium variable vane turbocharger found in the $1+ million dollar Koenigsegg ONE, but that's a pretty big exception... The basic shape and design of turbos and turbines have been around for a super long time (the jet engine we use in our small stealth bombers have almost identical turbine blades, though smaller because its a smaller engine. You can in fact turn a turbocharger into a jet engine if you were wondering, its pretty cool)
Jake Garrett no I work on Cummins engines for a living have for 30 years, that's an old turbo, and it's an inefficient design, and yes diesels use variable nozzle turbos these days, some with exotic metals in them
So how does that material change his results? If we made it out of gold/platinum/titanium or possibly even cardboard, it wouldn't make a difference, its not running hot like a real turbocharger. They have been snail shaped geometer for a super long time, and for a fixed output (like an electric motor at max, as opposed to an rpm and volume changing combustion engine), then there is absolutely no benefit to having a variable turbocharger, and engineer would simply size it for that exact power and flow output. He is using the wrong size turbo, plain and simple. That's my point, its a huge turbo/super to be trying to run electric.
The biggest changes are precision and balancing of impellers, better oil systems, improved waste gates, and variable (not needed for this application). The only thing that would really change it is if its super wavy and unfinished/rough pathway on the inside, but surely they sandblast these at least back then. Geometry changes are more to do with how you want your compressor mapping.
This is good. Ever do a part 2? I've been thinking about doing something similar but maybe gearing it to the serpentine belt
I hear it's a pretty good idea to power one of those with the waste heat from an engine exhaust.
Hahaha you sir are a clever man
Actually, it's not heat, but pressure that powers turbos. The problem with that set up, though, is that it causes back pressure on the entire system, it requires the motor to run at lower compression, (at lower engine rpm) the motor doesn't produce enough pressure to drive the turbos impeller effectively (spool up time), and normal turbos run all the time, but are only really needed during hard acceleration. Oh, and the plumbing can be a mess! Using a clutch activated, high output alternator to charge large capacitors during slower driving, could be used to power an electric turbo for the 5 to 10 second bursts that it's actually needed and the entire system would be a lot more efficient. Unfortunately, there is still a ton of issues that need to be sorted out first.
You're wrong about low compression. They usually use low compression pistons to minimize possibility of detonation, but all you have to do to avoid detotation is keep manifold pressure within manufacturer's limits. Have a turbo on a 9.7:1 Lycoming. Works fine, everything went to overhaul times with, no burned pistons or blown heads. "turbos needed only during hard acceleration." Utterly false. In a turbo normalized aircraft application, the turbo is used only at altitude, and most of the time spent at altitude is cruise. The higher you cruise the harder the turbo will be expected to work. You must be an infantry type. If you learn by youtube, go to greg's airplanes and automobiles and watch his vid on WWII turbocharging and supercharging. btw, electric turbo charger is an idiot misnomer. The thing does not have a turbine. It's a type of electrically driven supercharger.
I did the same thing to drive a cyclone I made as a shop vac. Worked great. Drove a fan blade off the back of the motor for cooling. Great video.
Boost is a build up of pressure in the intake manifold. You are not measuring boost pressure.
Its a big ass boost leak
I've been waiting for someone to try this for the longest now
1.7PSI at what air flow? you could get higher psi at lower flow, right? how much would engine at low RPM need? let's say small car or mower :)
As a rough estimate, about 0.4 cubic meters per second, based on turbo maps from similar turbochargers. At full speed it should produce about 1.5 cubic meters per second.
AKA a shitton. That's a big ass turbo. You should put it on your CRV.
Scott Lee the turbo lag would be so bad it might never even spool up
Boost PSI is the restriction of air flow though the engine.
If 6000 engine rpm was 10 psi , 3000 rpm would be 20 psi
If there was nothing after the turbo, there would be little to no boost pressure .
mount the air intake from the engine, it would be great if you added some meaningful covers to the intake
About 6months ago I told a friend who been a mechanic that this exact project would be nice.. He proceeded to explain why it was a dumb idea since I supposedly did not understand how a turbocharger worked.. Thanks man, you proved me right!! Maybe I'll try it in my next car :P
What the heck is lubricating the rotor bearings?
HOPE
Air...
Sealed Air bearings
h2oil
Prayers
YES! I've been waiting for YEARS for this to be actually done
Turbocharger is turbine driven supercharger
You my friend made world's biggest electric supercharger well done and also will this fit in my Honda 👌
It would, but you'd have to run a heavy ass genny to run that motor. Can you fit a rv size generator in the trunk of your honda? Lol
No he didn't. "Electric superchargers" have been around as scam products for years. They don't work. They can't work. It's simple physics.
@@gymkhanadog wrong. They do work. Just not well with current tech. Too low of boost pressures with current affordable technology.
@@gymkhanadog of course they work. All superchargers require a percentage of engine energy to be driven. Electric superchargers are no different.
Maybe use a Tesla motor?!🤔
I'd be more interested in knowing the CFM it delivers at that max power :-) That is an easier ballpark guestimator for how much power boost to expect (for a given engine and it's peak CFM)
That'll dry your hands quick fast in a hurry.
My friend and I actually tried that, dried in about 2 seconds
thats immediately what my mind went to also! "dang he just made the worlds most power full hand dryer"
When your wife wants to make the neighbors jealous and you're a bloody great husband
Feed it nos
This type of thing is used in hyper cars and formula1 racing. It’s called something like a precharger or electronic boost assist. They use it to build boost before the exhaust output is enough to build boost off the engine.
now do a simular setup using a motor on the cold side of the turbo to help pull exhaust out of the cylinders on a supercharged engine
Thats a neat idea
Very interesting. What this experiment demonstrates is how much energy is wasted in engine exhaust. It takes a lot of power to run electric motor, but engine exhaust spins it up basically for no cost. Cool
Tiit Saul when using a turbo the exhaust pressure is usually higher than the boost pressure, so it's not all free energy.
Realistically to hit the full ~ 50 PSI @ ~ 1000 - 1200 CFM a turbocharger like that could push you would need about 170 - 200 HP which when scavenging energy off the high temp high volume exhaust of large 14 liter 400+ HP diesel is possible given the overall engine efficiency gains given by the added boost cancel out the added fuel and power consumption of pushing the exhaust against such a load.
Hey. You know, there are these things like "." and ",". Use them.
@@vitalliy5559 There's medications that make concerns like that a lot less 'concerning'. Maybe you should look into them with a much interest as you do casual non formal text punctuation.
Amazing project!!! Really hoping to see another update!!! This is a similar project to what I want to do, and it’s very interesting to see one that actually produces a little boost!
Well, either you're building one hell of a shop-vac, or I'm just completely thick when it comes to turbo chargers and electric motors... :P
twocvbloke Build a central vacuum for the shop out of a 55 gallon drum!
All the T-50 variants use hydrostatic bearings which require oil at about 50 PSI to prevent the journal from contacting the bearing and wearing. Additionally, turbocharger rotating assemblies generate thrust forces due to secondary flows of boost and exhaust behind their respective impellers.
These thrust loads largely compensate for each other, but in the absence of a turbine, the hot side thrust face will see higher loading than normal.
The T-50s have GIANT single piece bearing assemblies, so they can take a lot of abuse, but if you decide to test at higher speeds, oil will become necessary.
Rock on!
could use it to give air to a forge
David Hintz now that is a good idea
there can never bee too much haha
*a hella big forge
@David Schrumpf fire lives off air
Turbocharger compressors are used by companies like Inovair to provide high pressure process air. A large AC induction motor drives a V-belt system, which turns an increaser gearbox, which then drives the blower. (You need revs for pressure.) You could make a walk-behind blower for the shop, or rig up some PVC pipe to blow water off the top of your car.
Make a jet engine, add a tube so the compressor blows down the middle, allow air to enter next to the nozzle, add fuel and flames
If it doesn't hae the power to drive the car, it would be an awesome weed killer
Leaf Blower/Combustion.
Sparky Projects nice idea
Colinfurze did this, but it was WAY smaller! That turbo would be in-fucking- sane!
Slow motion water blow is supercool, very interesting to see. Congrats on the idea. Nicely done.
Isnt this basically a Electric supercharger? :D Anyways, cool experiment, keep this up. Really entertaining to watch.
Love the high-speed shot. I used to throw snowballs into the exhaust stream of an F-15 fighter on the engine run pad. Those were some powerful engines. The snowballs just disappeared. Good times.
Nice leaf blower
jesu christ there seem to be lot of air comming out of there... i cannot belive this cannot feed a car engine ?! and what about having a big supercapacitor charged by the car alternator and then when needed (pressing gas pedal) super capacitor make spin the brushless motor that make the turbine spin and so creating psi for more engine power. does that make sense? reply me pleasee :D
Its not about feeding the engine with air. Engine does not need to be fed with air. The goal is to have enough power to be able to compress in extra air, so that you can pump in more fuel and still be able to burn it all.
@@ibbz6932 obviously but don't you think this electric one can't build pressure ? it seem to shoot out prettry crazy fast to me can't belive any N/A engine sucking that amount of air event a 7k rpm ?! maybe im wrong but idk... and it seem pretty strong enough to build pressure ?
SwapSupra Typically, turbo engines run around 6-12 and turbodiesels even higher, as opposed to the one in the video at 1.7psi. And your idea of a supercapacitor would work, just not as practical as batteries in my opinion.
@@ibbz6932 my english is not the best for understanding everything in this video, i got that part where it shown 1.7 psi but there was almost no restriction on the end of that turbo (intercooler,piping,intake minfold, valve opening and closing etc..) the air is just free flowing right trough that cone. add restriction like all mentionel above and i bet it would probably go for 6-8 psi. what do you think? i just trying to have hope in a setup like this haha
SwapSupra You’re right. The pressure would rise at the expense of air flow, but in order for this concept to work, you would need high pressure and high air flow same time. You also need fast response. The answer to this is obviously power. Think of it this way. This is a motor that came out of a vacuum cleaner. Can a vacuum cleaner provide extra boost to a car engine? I highly doubt that. For comparison, the sq7 tdi uses a 7000w motor that can spin its turbo (not sure the size difference) from 0 to 75,000rpm in just 0.25seconds. So to sum it up. This concept already does work, you just have to be kind to physics. Hope this helps 👍🏼
Super powered vacuum dermal?
Very well done! Place a ball valve at the end along with a pressure sensor and an air flow meter and make yourself a compressor map.
Why don't you use gear ratios to get the rpm up
It would lower torque, and at some point the turbine cant create enough torque to create pressure. He can play around to find the best of both tho 👍
Audi are doing something similar, not for primary boost but to start spooling early to overcome turbo lag. They use liion batteries in series to get more than 12v.
This could work better on a smaller turbo perhaps and with a high gear ratio
awesome! honestly i’ve had the idea of an electric driven compressor for awhile just never had the tools to get started!
This absolutely made my day
Instant lean condition love to see what fuel pump and injectors you use
I spy a 121GW!
I suspect the whole video is him just showing off that he has one.. :)
Seeing comments for and against a turbo running off of heat. The correct answer is that a turbo runs off of heat and pressure, it's called enthalpy (a system's internal energy plus the product of its pressure and volume). This is part of the simplified gas law and is a property of every thermodynamic system in reality.
Your running it with oil right?
Using sealed bearings rather than the original bushings
@@tesla500 How good are sealed bearings?
I was going to do this to build a vacuum cleaner, thanks. .. are watch i don't think it's worth my effort but I'm glad someone did it.
You could use some supercapacitors.
The alternator charges them for 10-15 minutes and then you have 1-2 seconds of most awesome boost...
Doctorbass here! Hi Tesla500, That is really interesting test. in fact i built a system for a friend project with a 50kW Zero motor ( the 75-7R) and 28s cells at 650A. When we properly tuned the gear ratio between the impeller of the C38/71 modified supercharger and the motor and used the max power at 4000rpm at the motor and 90000rpm at the blower shaft, we acheived 30PSI with alot of flow!!! in fact the flow was so intense than all tiles of the floor in my garage flew in the air!!!!!
Doctorbass! I'm a big fan o your work! That sounds like a very interesting project you did with your friend! Do you have any more info on the project, any links or anything? Did your friend fit the supercharger to an internal combustion engine and get it on a dyno?
he's not dead!
If you want to measure the boost, shouldn't you completely block the output of the nozzle?
if u block it complete it would no nothing but rev to the moon ..then when u let go it will release the kenetic energy from over reving .. when i landscaped we used to drop closed pine cones down the tube with back pack blowers by covering them .and launch them at each other
Slowmo of belt drive. Anyone?
Connect this contraption to another turbo, to act as the driver for the new turbo.
the shirt makes this so much better uwu
would this make a better turbine than say a performance Ie sports turbocharger?
mehgeme
No. This is impractical, and he showed us why.
But supercharging is not fake, just needs some rpm's.
Tesla500.... Have you considered using a belt pulley or gear system to minimize the force needed by the motor and double the fan speeds, instead of using direct drive?
This is very similar to how the current year Formula 1 engine turbochargers work. Mercedes has a nice visual of how they create theirs in this video: ruclips.net/video/l2_eTLCz_3I/видео.html
Glad to see you tinkering around and posting videos again!
The current generation of F1 cars are using electric motors to keep the turbo spooled. Plus, it is also used to supply power to electric motors attached to the crankshaft. There's always electricity moving, either from motors to batteries, from batteries to motors, or from motor to motor. The 1.6L 24v V6 spins at a maximum of 15,000RPM.
Errr... engine power is NOT all about boost. Its mass air flow ;)
A large turbo can make more power with less boost due to many other factors too such as a less restrictive exhaust housing etc..
Leroy Baker clearly you nothing about how engines work... pressure is a sign of restriction.. more air more power and that can be acheived with low boost and a large turbo
Yee. This is why big snails make more power than little ones at the cost of boost lag
I know what you mean.All about cfm e.g. a turbo at 14psi is equal to a turbo twice the size in airflow at 7psi theoretically
Jarryn Smith not really the intake manifold and intake runners in the head don't change. So it's still 7 psi manifold absolute pressure versus 14 psi. 14psi will make more power. Bigger turbos help at higher rpm. Boost pressure is measured in the manifold so if all you change is the turbo it will make the same power at the same boost level. You are right that a big turbo at 7 psi might flow more cfm than a small turbo at 14 psi. All that goes out the window once mounted to an engine.
Lach I'm not sure if your talking to me or not. All im saying is for example a 62mm turbo at 14psi and a 78mm at 14psi on the same engine just swapping the turbo they are going to produce similar hp numbers. The bigger turbo might be able to carry the boost out to higher rpms but there won't be a drastic difference in Max hp as long as the smaller turbo was properly sized. People think a big turbo at 10psi will make more power than a small turbo running 20psi. Boost is measured in the manifold. If the manifold is the same size and volume for both turbos then psi is psi regardless of what turbo produces it. Yes bigger turbos can flow more air. The cylinder pressure is all that matters. 20 psi in the manifold is the same regardless of which turbo created it.
An interesting and easy way to calculate copper loss and arrive at a close approximation of the mechanical power for that motor.
I tend to do it in a more difficult way (calculate percentages and such) I learned something, thank you!
No oil lines? Don't turbos use oil to cool lube them?
Andrew Delashaw Usually but most superchargers are self contained. With the heat of the exhaust turbine removed, the burning up a bearing is much more difficult.
I replaced the original sleeve bearings with ball bearings
No heat here, just cooling air.
More on this please, really interesting, as I love racing and messing around with stuff like this
121GW Review?
You can use the electric power on a smaller turbo to pre-charge a bigger turbo and quickly get the main turbo to spool quicker, you will virtually eliminate turbo lag!
Maybe you should just mount a gasoline powered leaf blower in your truck with a 4inch piece of dryer outlet hose hooked up to your intake. All joking aside it would probably work better than ANY electronic blower.
out2 getme roadkill already did that and showed how inefficient it was electronic blowers as you say is already in use in vehicles now.
@@dispatchts907 the only production car I know of that uses an electric blower is Volkswagen and I believe they use the electric blower to spin up belt driven turbo chargers. I've seen quite a few dyno tests with these Electric gadgets and they never seem to make any power.
out2 getme Audi SQ7-TDI
out2 getme no because a fan doesn’t compress air and compression is where you get boost.
A 6KW electric compressor done right, should work assuming you powered it separately. But why would you when you can get “free” power from the exhaust. In a hybrid car this could seem feasible for short bursts of power. Although maybe the power would be better off being used to propel the car. IDK, but I don’t think this has been experimented enough yet, so I applaud him for experimenting.
Dude! Great! Thatll make some mad instant spool since motors have instand torque!!
Interesting how electric motors are constantly the end goal. That turbo engine will get smoked by electric cars that don't need a turbo .Last 100 years "we'll just use an electric motor to start the engine, another spinning to generate power, clear the windshield (and some headlights) some in the doors, antenna, mirrors, seats, climate control, headlights that blink, and doors that close themselves, ..."
no one is denying that electric motors are more efficient, or convinient than gasoline engines; the reason we have electric motors powering all those auxiliary systems and a gas engine propelling the car is:
1. When cars became popular, gasoline was a more convinient source of portable energy than batteries.
2. You need a powerplant to turn gasoline into electricity; electric motors can't run on gasoline.
3. If you already have a big gasoline powerplant it is more efficient to just funnel that power directly to the wheels, instead of having a larger than necessary alternator so you can feed electricity to an electric motor.
When you use batteries for your energy instead of gasoline, it then makes sense to propel the car with an electric motor.
Of course all those auxiliary features are powered by electric motors in either case because it would be an engineering nightmare to do otherwise: think about trying to route hundreds of tiny driveshafts and transmissions throughout the car to feed mechanical engine power to the door locks, power windows, windshield wipers, and so on on demand; or maybe having a miniature, nitro-sized engine performing each task, each with a fuel line to the gas tank (and an even tinyer electric starter).
Jakedasnake1066 actually most of them tasks were done years ago in old carsusing vacuum. But of course electric motors were more reliable
Thank you , thank you O brother of mine.
Thank you for all of those days and nights spent just in the mathematics alone.
Sir , what ever drove you to take the time to put this out there , I thank :)
Only because the way I think and process things . One 1/4 of your video just gave me a missing piece to my big puzzle . God bless bro see you on the flip side keep on keeping on!
And this is why I am single. 😟
James Spader yes this is the reason!
how much pressure could it generate and how loud is it? this just wonder if i could build an air compressor with a small turbo and a bl/dc motor wich runs much more quiet than the piston based compressors out there!
I do not agree with you with regards to all electric turbochargers are useless, dude THOSE THINGS ARE USED IN NEW AUDIS, it gets the turbos to rpm quick with extra power eliminating turbo lag almost completely everywhere! Back to your stuff, calibrating a fan is a precise exercise, you are turning the biggest fkin turbo I have ever seen, compared to that the motor u are using is tiny... That is wrong an inefficient for many reasons, for one with an electric supercharger you want your fan to get to full rpm as fast as possible to properly calibrate the injector and turning that is hard to do with a rediculus turbine designed to charge 14liters with enough compressed air for up to 4k rpm with air in a heavy hauler, well thats a lot of fkin air. The problem multiplies coz these kind of truck turbos are really only effective and efficient in a narrow rpm range and your 6kw motor is not even close to achieving that or even 5% of that. Rpm numbers together with power draw would also differ a lot from your measurements and boost amount would change too much in a wide range with your "setup", now add to that the slow fan speedup and with these characteristics calibrating the injector would become hard to say the least or even impossible, if you could succeed to make it work somehow what you would achieve proly is a huge turbolag that is always present. Fans are designed for specific power and rpm to be efficient and so achieving higher boost than your demonstrated setup did at 6kw would be most likely doable maybe with a quality 70mm fan even at around 2kw and easily surpassed by a quality! 90mm fan with high blade count paired with the right 4kw+ motor. for such a purpose the motor is preferable that has higher kv for the fan slightly so it only reaches optimum rpm when the engine intake is sucking properly at full throttle with steady vacuum and that way boost levels could be managed on the "top end" and at the lower end or with light loads it also could be managed with a fast early spinup to a boost level that is gradually decreasing as the engine's rpm rises at full throttle . I'm planning a mod like this for a while now, will be using a bike engine around 800cc with a 70mm ducted setup, a generator that is around 2.5kw for the 2kw-ish fan, all calibrated with "power commander 5". My engineer friend made some educated guesses and he said I could possibly get +20-30% max power and more at lower rpms, it is possible that even the combustion chamber needs to be slightly larger just like when putting on a real turbo only not by that much. It got a little long but I hope this helps you make a decision as to how to proceed, actually using your motor together with that huge turbo could be made to work on a smaller engine I think, more or less like it does in the new audis but only if it was an exhaust driven full turbo at the same time. Cheers from Hungary and good luck!!!
Are they not a bi turbo? Electric one does the low end rpm, traditional does the high end rpm.
Or supports the traditonal in the middle zone.
Ra40Rob
Well, biturbo would mean that there are 2 turbines driven with exhaust gas so unless that is the case it is not a biturbo. It helps the turbo as you say, makes the lower rpms shine for sure but it has to work on full load as well as far as I know, If not than that would mean the electric motor is put on some freewheeling mechanics, honestly I dont know for sure but it wouldnt make sence to me, it would be just unnecessary(again not sure, Im just spitballing here). If they are not freewheeling then they have to work on full load too, taking over during gear changes or coming out of a corner the turbo can spin up quick for example trying to provide a more steady boost in the entire range. So its a turbo with a capable helper, someone to lean on other than just some exhausted gases, those are lame. :D:D
@@TheSeaRoach just going on a few reports, here is one.
www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/new-audi-sq7-use-electrically-assisted-turbocharging
He's talking about those cheap ebay electric turbos. The audi turbos work very differently.
Hes talking about the ones on ebay.
I love the mathematical equations. I'm hooked on your vids
Awoo!
Don't awoo, $350 penalty.
Mow?
KooriShukuen *runnns from awoo police*
UwU you thought you could run away from the *awoo police*
yo calm down its only legal in 4 states now
The best eTurbo claims 1psi and costs $4000. Obviously, a car engine has a ton of spare horsepower to run a turbo especially as that turbo boosts its power. But, I'm wonder, if using a cap and matching the volume requirements would it be feasible to boost a few PSI for sporadic quick starts.
What’s the point of the fairly large capacitors in the back of the ESC? Supply sufficient current in quick bursts?
Less than 2 PSI boost sounds disappointing, was it close to surging? What was the outlet pressure temperature and input power again? Thanks Ian
I was wondering since you said you were going to use motors for an electric ducted fan if the EDF units used in remote control jets would be enough for an auto application? I mean I've seen some EDF's online - granted very expensive ones that claim 50+ lbs of static thrust - and being that it's composed of readily available components you can get at any online hobby retailer this would make for a very easy project if the numbers work out. Would this be a plausible? I ask because I'm no mathematician or electrician so I don't know how much thrust is needed to produce enough boost for an auto application. What is appealing is if enough boost could be created it could be a a simple on/off device like nitrous and all you'd have to do is recharge the li-po batteries that power these fans.
Nice clip and very good machine abilities. Just to mention to calculate everything in linear model can be very misleading in fluid mechanic and power efficiency. Many motors start with higher current but continue with much less current once they start to rotate.Another factor to think about is the volume of the air the turbo delivers at a given pressure which can be crucial to get the job done.
Question is could you hook up the exhaust side to turn a generator to power a battery pack for this one and therefore eliminate turbo lag and increase turbo response 🤔
This is like a cheat sheet for one of my current projects. Thanks :)
I concluded with my mathematical mathmatics that it blows good
What’s the end game with this? Move something with the thrust? Help a combustion engine make more power? Mount it on a vehicle and use the thrust to move it? The video was apparently an attempt to estimate the power required to spin the turbo to a specific rpm In order to estimate net gain in its intended application, so what is that application? I guess I’m also asking are we concerned with the CFM output of the turbo or the psi.
Hey, did you end up testing those small rc aircraft motors? I couldn't see a video on that? I'm experimenting with a different way of operating a turbo charging system and am interested to see if those motors worked?
Probably missed it in the video... I didn't see where you mentioned what type of motor that is. Obviously not stepper motor, but perhaps that could improve efficiency?
Very interesting. I'll admit, I was skeptical at first but you've done your homework and know what you're doing. Props to you for that. Subscribed and interested to see more
Very cool! I was really wondering whether we’d get to see how much magic smoke your ESC contains, lol. As with most things they are over-rated or only rated under very specific conditions as far as the number of motor poles, RPM, amount of time permitted, and load on the motor. I’ve seen way too many ESCs catch fire, and suddenly your wires are red-hot when the MOSFETs short out.