How to Play Marginal Hands in Poker
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- Опубликовано: 4 авг 2019
- I flop a marginal made hand and play it as a marginal made hand should be played. Would you have played it this way?
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I’m on a Jonathan Little binge lately, has become highly profitable in online micro/low stakes for a bankroll challenge I have issued myself
Awesome, I'm glad to hear that! Good luck with everything.
how do you adjust to players at the micros not really playing a range per se? i find myself in spots playing ranges and end up calling or betting spots that many ppl teach you to and i just end up losing money to there shitty pair or the ace you knew they had. If your range is crazy strong on a board and you bet it they arent thinkin necessarily that deep so i end up in positions where i played properely(or a time where i did) but end up losin to their shitty low pair. Trying to figure it out. unless you connect or the times a bet gets em off it but most of what i see is if you make a hand basically hope its better or u can scare em cause they dont really fold any hand they make.
sorry for the rant
@@chirbrizy44 not a pro and don't have decades of experience, but I think I would obviously play to your position and up your agression. When you get a strong hand preflop and you are in late position I'd raise, but most of those folks are calling stations and just want to see the flop. I wouldn't raise 3bbs, I find raising 10bbs helps to isolate limpers. From there you likely have cut down on some of the garbage. Depending on what you flop, maybe c-bet? I'd say especially with a dry board, in this case you've got the aggression and continuing to c-bet I think would tell your opponent(s) that you likely have pocket broadways, perhaps flopped a set, really represent a strong range on top of a strong opening. Likely you'll steal the pot before showdown. If you only have a marginal made hand c-bet low. If you are sitting on a over pocket pair, then I'd say at least 1/2 pot c-bet.
@@chirbrizy44 seriously, these games can be frustrating because you're not really playing against other players. You're likely playing against people that are just gambling and have to see every flop. They call everything, even if you're opening strongly. I'd tighten my ranges some and up the aggression. Obviously pay attention to your opponents. But you tighten up some and really make them pay up, they'll likely leave the table or just pay you off for ages and end up pissed and tilted. Good luck, sir.
Congrats on the award (you deserve it) your content is extremely useful primarily as you have a canny knack of being able to explain your thought processes in a way that we can learn and digest the information.
Thanks. Thanks a LOT
I really like how you present your information. You're a good teacher, and I've learned a great deal from your videos.
Thank, John!
I would say the same. Dude's an awesome teacher, and an amazing player.
I just want to say thank you for the poker tidbits, your teaching style is very easy for me personally to understand. Unlike some RUclips videos who will remain nameless (DP) who are all over the map giving so much information that (DP) even gets lost in the lesson claiming that he's just a genius and can't help himself... LOL 😂.... perhaps that is accurate but not everyone has teaching ability. I have discerned that you have both intelligence and the ability to teach. Not trying to suck up, just an observation from a poker Granny raising grandchildren here in Fountain Hills AZ....😎👍🤶
Can't say it enough times. Amazing content, Jonathan Little!
Well explained. Thanks a lot.
Jonathan Little certainly knows his stuff. He has definitely helped me become the player that I am.
Jonathan!!! Love it! Shallow stacked play is difficult but you’ve helped dramatically improve this portion of my game. Thank You 🤑
I found that poker is about your mindset+study until you get strong fundamentals. I can crush small tournaments when focusing on players patterns and good overall choices. Never call a raise from tight players, keep track of players behavior, pressure the weak calls with reraises, steal blinds, etc. Last of course is "playing on days you're calm", because If you play on days you are not calm and focused, nothing you learned will matter since you gonna play like shit and give excuses to your poor plays
When those kinds of days come up it's best to walk away, because they will continue to come up as long as you play poker. It is what it is. You just can't allow your mental game to lose you money. Realize you just don't have it that day and go do something you enjoy. The poker room isn't going anywhere and for every dollar you don't lose because of ir not happening for you that day is another dollar you can bet a good hand when you do have it going on. When I'm not on my A game and I realize it, hopefully sooner and not later, I do other things and think about my game and what I did well and what I didn't do well. Kind of like watching game film, except it's in my head, and I accomplish something else while doing it.
Nice poker tips and strategies. Roll with the tiger to grow in craps strategy.
A lot of good solid logic here. Thx buddy!
Great tips again JL learning with every video I watch 👌
Another generous lesson. Thanks!
In a cash game I'm rarely opening KJo UTG+1. It feels too wide for that position, so I usually don't think too hard and just fold. Is it closer/are wider ranges typical in a tournament?
i like the way you discuss how to play in various ways with the range of hands you are arriving at postflop here. Too often ppl just analyse how the specific hand should be played. Breaking it down to all the various marginal made hands, value hands, draws, and just plain junk hands. Being shallow stacked, how would you have proceeded with your range if your opponent checked the turn? What if he called turn and checked river? How about if he check-called turn and led 1-third pot on river?
Awesome, I'm glad you liked the format. If you want to try out some advanced range analysis, check out the homework on PokerCoaching.com where I have my students analyze the ranges across multiple streets and provide feedback.
If shallow stacked, facing a turn check from opponent betting small is fine. If the opponent is tricky, checking back turn and going for 1-street of value on the river is fine as well. In the second situation, I would call the 1/3 river lead.
Great Video 😎🏆 Thank You
This was very interesting to watch. Learnt something don’t bet marginal made hands on the flop junk will be folding and better made hands calling. Thanks JL.
If we have a vague read that he is tight, and it’s a relatively high buy in....
Fold river, it’s not a bluff sizing and I don’t think he’s gonna value bet a worse hand more than 20% of the time
I'm just curious what the ev difference between checking flop and betting 1/2 pot.
Is it a big difference?
Thank you for sharing your valid information it’s help
Great video!
Its a good read tha the opponent has a K but I find in myself in situations where they had an ace the whole time.. would you have done the same?
Jonathan you always provide quality content, thank you
My pleasure!
Can you please do a video on when having the nuts on the flop or turn but there are two flush draws out there or straight draws, What do you think is the best play. Bet half pot, full pot over bet (allin). A lot of times i go allin and half of the time they call with a draw and get there:( Thank's
Seems that you're talking about turbo local tournaments with bad players who call flush draws even if pot odds are unfavorable for them. Can't you just cbet flop (if you've hit flop) just like Jonathan would suggest, see ruclips.net/video/K6P9xIoObOM/видео.html - you're still in favor, most of the time they'll not get there by turn, and on turn you can still just bet, they're super unfavorable right now, 8-9 outs, just let them pay for their draws. Most of the time they'll not hit, and they're happy to pay to see the river. If you go pot size on flop or more then they'll see the opportunity to double up with their 37% for flush and they may even have pot odds at this moment to justify their call and worst case scenario from their point of view is that they'll go and reenter.
Should we our all ax bet and all kx check? If we just check with marjinal hands this mean "i have not ax" such we face big amount bet turn and river. Maybe for that reason we should check some ax and we make balance. Then what is best ax combos for check?
This vid has got we natives talking up a storm Jon. BTW, Shout out to The Star please Jon.
My man JL has it all! great coach, great player, great businessman, great father (love Mr. James & Mr. Thomas), great husband. Keep up good work
Will do, John!
Yes, thats exactly how i play KJo Jon. Thanks for the vid. It was fairly straight forward in that all we had to do was call down with second pair and a reasonable kicker.
Not sure this is video is particularly insightful. Basically, it's: "Check-Call in Position with 2nd pair against 30%-40% Pot-bets on relatively 'dry' boards." Overall, it's a passive strategy and competent...but his opponent never really "put him to the Test". A sharp opponent would have seen the Check on the Flop, and Check-Call on the Turn as indicative of just what Johnathan had: 2nd pair or top-Pair/weak-kicker.
@@EricA-xd9fn But I think that's the point. The general population at this buyin level isn't putting you to the test. They're just playing poorly in some way you can take advantage of.
@@realjpb6039 We are probably just at odds over definitions. It's just not particularly insightful to say "Check-Call with B-, C+ hands". Still , I grant you that Jonathan puts out so, so much free content...so not every video is a gold nugget.
@@realjpb6039...and I would say a much more interesting discussion would be from the opponent's perspective: "You've defended the BB with K/10 off, Flop comes A-K-9, two hearts...how is the best way to prevail against marginally better hands?"
@UCMfAu1sJGHOS7grYzAonE7w Agreed, should have styled strategy as "check/call". I was trying to emphasize the passivity of that play-style. With regard to wet/dry, the 2 hearts represents its only 'wetness'. K-T-9 or K-Q-9, two hearts, would agree...wet. On a 10-1 scale of wet-to-dry, it's probably a 5...because the straight-draws are all gut-shots.
Isn't a good way to practice simply to put out random flops and make sure we have a betting and checking and raising range ?
I love your content. But some videos like this are more precise, and long less they are excellent. Thanks for more precise videos
If the BB checked on the river, would you have value bet?
What if both streets go check/check.
Do we make a small river bet?
Really enjoy studying these types of hands, bc I feel like they're the most common. I find myself betting 1/3 in this spot with almost my entire range, but I think I like working some checks bc if we get raised we are already bluff catching. Also this specific combo seems nice to check back with the Jh. But what if we have KJcc/dd/ss or KJo w/o a heart? Is it bad to bet 1/3 to get value from worse Kx, fd's, and gutshots? I know it's miserable to get raised here, but it seems like a trivial fold if bb is c/r on this board vs utg open with these stacks.
Checking nearly all KJ's here is a fine strategy as you can usually only bet that hand for 1-street of value. Betting range small is fine as well.
Jonathan Little - Poker Coaching Checking KJ on the flop seems logical, but against a lot of opponents it makes the hand harder to play on later streets IMO. In my experience, a lot of opponents interpret checking as a green light to start firing off barrels on turn/river with both bluffs and value hands. When we surrender the initiative on the flop, at what point should we give up to heavy barreling on following streets?
why would You check with that if Your opponent is calling with way worse, KXs, flushdraws, straight draws, sometimes 9x. easy value bet and check back turn if called ? our range smashes this flop hard. his BB defense range is way way behind.
Min raise that way you have the option to fold if you get raised or miss the flop and save your stack to fight another day.
What you do if he checks the river ?! Would you make a small value river bet or just check knowing it's hard for him to have a worse calling value hand ?!
It depends on my opponents strategy. If I think he will be very unbalanced, not checking with any Ax, then value betting is fine. If he will be very balanced, checking some Ax, then checking back is best.
Thanks for the answer.
Very smart way of thinking , written in the most simple way to let others understand it
The jack of heart is blocking some of my opponent's bluffing range such as missed flush draw and missed straight draw. Does it make sense to fold on the river?
So what if in another example you hold 9s10s and the flop comes 10d Kd 2c .He checks.If you dont bet he gets a free draw to pair a card higher than yours and also a free card to hit a straight or flush.I mean there must be some examples where leading with marginal made hands is the correct play?
@6:26 you said to call with 9c8c because a lot of people will not bet with a hand worse than a king. I'm not getting this. Can you please explain?
Ok Im a little late to this party but dont you have range and nutt advantage? I know the hand itself is marginal but wouldnt we bet our entire range small with range and nutt adv. as the preflop aggressor? or is that overwritten by the fact that we are that shallow and cant affort to be blown of our hand?
Not necessarily.
I have a stupid question on this hand: Do we have the range advantage on the flop and if so, shouldn't we bet about 1/3 pot? Or does the idea of betting frequently with a range advantage goes out of the window once we are hitting schallow stacks? Thank you for the response - nice video as always
You certainly have a large range advantage and is still important with shallow stacks. Betting your entire range using a small sizing on this flop is reasonable, but splitting your range to allow yourself to check back some marginal hands and junk will result in higher EV in this situation.
Thank you for the response, one last question if you have the time. If you are out of position (let's say the button calls instead of the bb) - is your goal to check/call all three streets? Or do you cbet more often?
Thank you, always helpfull to discuss hands with you :)
RandyOrton92 we have to check far more often when our opponent is in position
Jonathan I understand on this flop our hand is marginal but doesn't this flop smash our range giving us the range and nut advantage? Wouldn't that be a reason to bet big?
Don't you have the range adventage? I tought that you had to bet every type of hand (premium, draw, marginale, junk) when you have a strong range adventage?
if a rec opponent bets pot on turn would you ever fold this hand to one bet?
Checking the flop back will likely induce bluffs from many rec players. So I would not be looking to fold unless I was somehow very certain he had a strong hand.
You said you would have fired the flop with 87s, what is your range looking like on this stack size and stage in the tourney? I didn't even consider hands such as 78s when thinking how I'd play this flop
Check out my preflop ranges at pokercoaching.com! I have implementable gto 15bb ranges currently up and 25bb ranges that will be up soon. I'll be opening something like 17% of hands here. 66+, ATo+, A5s+, K8s+, 87s+, suited broadways and KJo.
@@PokerCoaching
I will, thank you for the reply.
What do you think of betting very small on this flop with entire range? I don't like that strategy, but just a thought
I don't like that strategy as well. We don't have a large enough range advantage.
@@PokerCoaching You decided to raise preflop so the AK is more in your range. That and you get information on the opponents range. Essentially if you don't bet you won't know if they could have a QJ gutter, pair 9 that can two pair up, or a flush draw.
No.After the flop I would have shoved on the strength of the Kings . I'd fade an Ace and make a Heart Flush draw make a bad play to call and continue. If it didn't work out then so be it. I don't expect to win them all anyway. So ..... what if the turn had been a Heart instead of a brick? Would you have continued to bet into a possible made Flush just to try to squeeze out a little more maximization?
That would be an unwise strategy. If you were to bet flop, shove turn the only hands calling you would be better than KJ. That's not a situation you want to be in. After checking the flop, if a heart comes I would bet small if checked to. Having the J of hearts is very helpful. If a heart comes and the BB bets, it's an easy call as KJ is a marginal made hand with a draw to the J high flush.
@@PokerCoaching - Thanks Jonathon. I did mean shove after the flop, not the turn.
Wow, it really struck me at the end when you said "be nice to someone". I like that. I might start saying that.
LoL, on the same page here, I found that a very positive ending too :D
I would have overbet the flop to see if they are committed to playing an ace or representing the acr
Now if they would have flipped the kq would you have considered your play bad?
...I am not result oriented.
So here’s what I don’t understand...if we’re supposed to play our range the same way all the time shouldn’t we bet the flop because we’d often wanna bet with AQ, AJ, AK, 99, and flush draws?
Or do we just play bluffs and value the same way and marginal made hands for smaller pots?
The second one. Bet your premium made hands and draws on the flop to stay balanced. And check back some marginal made hands and junk so that when the flop checks through you're not just folding to every turn bet.
@@PokerCoaching so my only concern is if we always check back marginal hands and junk then our opponent always knows we don't often have a premium hand, right? Thanks for responding.
@@kevdawg55 That's fine though. Our range is well protected as we will check some of our worst Ax's that will very easily call turn and river bets. You can also mix in a trap with top set every once in awhile if you think your playing an opponent who will be overbluffing when you check back.
@@PokerCoaching I understand. I think lol. Thanks Jonathan, poker is such a fascinating and frustrating game but i love it and I'm trying to get better every day. I really apreciate it.
Marginal ? Don’t know where y’all play but kj off is a monster hand in these parts.
for me my opponent has AJ AQ or KQ or 55 90% of the time and sucked out and just getting value.
Dam its early man
I think you might get a cheaper showdown with more info by betting the flop with 30% of the pot. I think he would check back the turn to you with Ace rags if he calls your flop.
If they check river do you value bet your second pair?
It depends on my opponents strategy, but likely checking back against most players.
No, for the simple reason you're never getting value, If they call you've lost, if they fold you'd won anyway.
Always check lower pairs down if able.
Another thing you'll find a massive help is to remember if you're calling, the chances are, you should be raising.
The hands I have trouble playing are when I flop the best hand, so I bet strongly, get called, turn still looks like I have the best hand so I bet strongly again, get called then I find I no longer have the nuts, but am more or less pot committed. e.g. I have Td9d I raise, flop Jc8s7s I raise half pot, turn is Qh, I raise, villain re-raises, I decide to go all-in. Villain calls, he shows As9s. River is a spade and I get stacked. I'm not sure what you would do, is it better to be a bit more cautious wth this type of hand, more agressive, or was I just unlucky. Any help appreciated.
I don't want to light money on fire either.
Wait - how should the BB have played this hand???
It would be very reasonable to check turn looking to call most turn and river bets with a bluff catcher hand. If the turn goes check/check, KTo could bet small on river looking to get value from hands like QQ,JJ,TT, T9s, 98s, etc
If it was me in this situation, my opponent would have A2 off 💀
Great video, Jonathan! ❤😄
Thank you! Glad you liked it
Yeah I can always identify people at local tournaments who don’t study much when I hear them start asking to chop extremely early because in their words ‘now we’re playing bingo.’
Wouldn’t it be “safer” to raise the turn bet?
No. Raising the turn would be a large mistake because all worse hands would fold and all hands the opponent calls with will be better.
Jonathan Little - Poker Coaching if i had had at turn a gutshot or a open proyect of stright? I should call, raise or fold?
value, baby!
KJ
If you min-raise KJo in a 1$ tournament in this position.. You will have 6 callers.
Speed 1.5?Why brother?!
I had him on a hand like 10-9.
Marginal hands are great as you don't get too attached to them as you would top 5 hands. If they betray you you're world isn't over.
at the end of the day , are u reading the other players hand correctly , is what matters
Wait, K/J is marginal?
I would have bet this hand flop turn and river. Your opponent was in BB so probably didn't have A. Even so you might have gotten A rag to fold.
I strongly disagree with checkibg post flop for this hand. Only an ace, 2 pair or a set has you beat. The opponent could have all black, any pocket pair or connectors. A simple straight forward bet could take it down. Also by checking you give him the chance to hit the flush or a straight draw. This is very conservative, tight, rookie poker. Don't give up pot control like that people.
KJ is a marginal hand on this board. Checking back your marginal made hands provides you with balance. If you always bet this hand on the flop, your opponent will be able to exploit you on the turn in a similar hand in the future because when it goes check/check on the flop it will mean that you have a weak checking back range. Allowing them to bluff turns very profitably.
Man you're making a typical beginner mistake. No value for KJ on that flop. What are you afraid of, the gutshot?
@@PokerCoaching You raised preflop against a player you don't know. He only called. Leave endless hand possibilities due to your small preflop bet. When you check the flip you were giving up the pot. Any raise and you were going to fold. A 1/2 pot bet would take it down and if reraised then fold. But don't wave the white flag just because you were called preflop. Very timid play and not very smart imo. Personally I think you should have folded preflop from that position.
@@dwaynerex7385 Checking has nothing to do with 'waving the white flag'. KJ is a marginal hand, so we are checking to remain balanced and plan to call almost any turn bet from the opponent. Checking back will the give the hands in the opponent's range that would fold to the flop bet a chance to bluff, resulting in more value for us.
lol dwayne. clueless bro! guys giving u free quality n u still don't get it. wish all my opponents were dwaynes
Dont think id play a hand like this… any raise id fold. Its just gets beat if they call you
seemed like a blocker bet to me
a lot of the "better" players would have checked river in the bb
Why does he hate KJ so much?
Then you don't advocate CBetting KJo when you make second pair against a rather wide BB call range? Not even delayed CBet? Wtf? Definitely cbet 1/3 pot there, fold to a raise.
I’m am idiot
Your line sucks man. It loses you 700-800 chips in EV. I'd go B Xb B (small sizing) or B B 2bb otr. Prints. When villains lead turn & river you can pretty much rule out TP. They don't got enough patience to check Ax TP on this flop. When he leads turn & river to this sizing - not only do you lose vs upper end of his Kx component within his range, KQ - lose, chop KJ, win KT, lose K9, you make less vs what you beat. He has like double the combos that beat you when he takes this line. Not to mention he could have blown you off a better hand but sizing is a hard concept for fish. feels yuck to be bluff catching here when you can turn the tables on him. Checking AK9 vs BB defend range as a EP open is criminal. You are correct that this sort of flop is a check w/ medium strength hands but you have massive range advantage esp EP vs BB. Curious, what do u do if he checks turn? Don't hate the flop check in all honesty but it's clear that you checked for all the wrong reasons.
wow
when you lose to somebody who think going all in is the only button they can press is just the worst fucking thing in poker...pls learn how to play lmfao
This is wrong. I can demonstrate.
This is how not to play a hand. Terrible