Fucking seriously, dude. I quit Overwatch for this game, and anyone complaining about balance or characters being broken is fucking hilarious when Brigitte 1.0 carried my 30 hour-playtime ass from 600sr to 2800sr in 40 hours. "Omg so unbalanced"
genuinely. i moved over from overwatch and realised that the ow balance team is just really that bad. i never got as invested in a live service game as i did ow until now with deadlock and it really opened my eyes as to why they're ridiculed as much as they are.
Give feedback, not blame. I've personally written 2 very lengthy, in-depth balance suggestions and hero reviews about Wrecker (in-development), Haze, and now in process of breaking down exactly how sniper characters have to work in these types of games. I have a balance background with multiplayer RPGs, first, and third person shooters. While Deadlock is a bit unique in this way, I understand the idea behind it well enough (I hope, after 200 games...) to feel comfortable giving genuine feedback. Sometimes I engage in the discord and it causes me brain damage.
@@TennessseTimmyy4mz isn't going to make it far as a streamer or a "pro player", mark my words. The guy is hands down one of the most childish and toxic gamers I have ever seen.
I don’t understand why people get so mad about balance in a game that isn’t even out yet. I guess it says something about how fun and polished the game feels right now
I don't understand people that say the game isn't out yet, this is as close to out as it gets. It even has a ranked mode now. Either way, it's definitely not a "closed alpha", while obviously there will be more people once it's actual in free access, the majority of the people that heard of it and have interest already played it.
I think just spreading positivity in general would be good for the deadlock community. I come from League of Legends, and i promise you, being negative and raging is the modus operandis of people. While the game is still in early development, trying to foster a more positive community could do wonders for making the game a rewarding experience for all levels of players. A rando and i literally turned a losing game around cuz we started making jokes on comms and the guys raging and saying "open and let them end" started laughing and trying to win again. Try to spread the giggles and guffaws folks
Valve knows how to balance. If you compare League and Dota in terms of Unpicked heroes/Unbanned heroes during major tournaments, Dota 2 pretty much always has a very high amount of hero variety picked in the tournaments.
That has nothing to do with balance lol, League pros just refuse to branch out even though there’s tons of viable characters and counterpicks availabke
Just to give people a glimpse of Icefrog being a genius at balancing: A classic example of a creative, indirect nerf in Dota 2. It happened in Patch 7.20, released in November 2018. In this patch, Phantom Lancer (PL) had been a very strong hero for a while due to his ability to spawn multiple illusions and overwhelm opponents, especially in combination with Keeper of the Light (KOTL). KOTL's Chakra Magic could restore PL's mana, allowing him to spam his Spirit Lance and Doppelganger, thus creating even more illusions, making PL extremely hard to kill in fights. Rather than directly nerfing Phantom Lancer's abilities or stats, Icefrog chose an indirect approach: they reduced Keeper of the Light’s base armor. KOTL is a naturally squishy support, and by lowering his armor, Valve made him more vulnerable to physical damage, especially in the laning phase. This armor reduction made it much riskier for KOTL to play aggressively or position closely to PL in fights, making the combo harder to execute effectively. This indirect nerf reduced the dominance of the PL-KOTL combo without directly weakening PL in a way that would harm his viability when played without KOTL. It's a great example of how Dota 2's balance changes often rely on nuanced adjustments that affect the meta creatively rather than straightforwardly nerfing or buffing specific heroes.
What I'd be interested to see is what Eternus players do when they are behind in the game aside from hidden farming. How do they change their usual build? Do they continue spirit or switch to gun with more lifesteal to stay alive? Etc.
When you behind, you actually have to invest more on the damage cause your stats are lower, making you have a hard time to kill the enemy, or you can adapt to buy items that support your team or disrupt an enemy.
I get eternus's in my ranked sometimes, a Bebop in my game 2 days ago, so post nerfs was building a full spirit build with punch items and just went ham, I think his style was almost akin to a backdoor, instead he was front dooring, acknowledging that he may die but he would definitely trade for 1 or 2
The game is still under development . This will keep on happening for sometime. Some player may get OP for a week or so , guys relax and enjoy the game
It's going to happen for all time. All long term live-service PvP games live and die by deliberately patching things and having evolving metas -- even a "balanced meta" has to be shaken up after a while or a lot of players get fatigue and stop playing.
I kind of disagree with you. This is an alpha but the devs are all over the place with patches and all, and for now they have a great and strong community but people are starting to get tired of some things, and there will be a point of no return... Just like some people say, the same train doesnt pass twice!
@@theSato Nah, you don't need to have patches to have a community. My man, Smash Melee exists. People still play that stuff and it hasnt seen hide nor hair of a patch in competitive in years. People will be passionate and find counterplay if given time. Patching is a way to force it *now* instead of several years down the line.
Best thing about Valve balance is that they do a REALLY good job keeping a lot of stuff in check with itemization options. It's 2 sides of the balance coin, and I think other MOBAs/hero shooters are either terrible at it, or don't have items to be able to balance around.
Welcome to Icefrog balancing. People been enjoying it in Dota for like 20 years at this point. I don't think there's a single dev on the planet that gets PVP balancing as good as he do, especially considering he deals with basically two of the most complex games in their respective genres.
@@Delta_VX It really isn't. His poke is insane especially if you are on a weaker laner. A mirage with good aim will just destroy you with left clicks and he has 0 risk of being harassed to death for it. And if he makes a mistake? Cool, get out of jail free card that CCs you and makes him invulnerable.
i quite like the frequent balance changes, it keeps the game fresh and keeps me engaged in finding out what new builds are being used and different techs that are viable. i'm sure it's not sustainable and once the game releases the balance changes will be less frequent, but for right now i'm pretty happy with the devs and what they're doing.
If you are coming from cs2 then you know how unbelievably cool it is to have a valve Dev team have transparency and accountability. The deadlock team is best in class right now
Valve is great for not being super reactive to people's complaints, unless something is clearly broken, so things that appear to suck can actually be good when people figure out the intent. This happened in Dota 2. Luna got an Aghs shard rework that gave her a shield ability, and everyone said it sucked and there is no reason to pick Luna over any other hero. Yet, when TI (the premiere Dota tournament) came around, Luna was one of the most contested picks because of the Aghs shard that the teams highly prioritized. But the Mo & Krill and Mirage buffs, I will never understand.
5:58 Dota Underlords had an official discord server with lead dev / community manager being active, but they stopped developing it before you could even spend money in it. Tbh it had similar approach to development / community interaction as Deadlock, but at least right now it doesn't seem like Deadlock will be dropped the same way as Underlords did.
Former top 30 Underlords player here. It hurt but it seems like they're pouring way more resources into this one with way more active balancing. We should be safe but never say never...
ive left plenty of feedback on the forum since i joined in may, and have seen quite a few suggestions implemented and that has felt so cool. love the approach valve is taking with deadlock
the devs of this team seem genuinely quite competent and understand the game. i trust that they'll cook. i also come from overwatch though so honestly anything is a step above my initial introduction to balance teams.
the games balance and ranking right now seems to be more impacted by player skill improving and devlopment of new and existing strategies rather than raw balance changes
People think it is like league balancing where they completely gut someone and then over buff someone else. They need to buff and nerf people to see where they should fall. The game is in closed alpha.
@@luukas2660 Shittake. L-Take. If you have actual balance with a fully useable hero pool, the meta constantly evolves around tiny adjustments. Overnerf/Overbuff are the tools of braindead riot devs wanting to sell you skins.
I want them to look into comp arrangement when putting players together in a team. Lately, I have been put in a 3-4 farm reliant heroes team. The game is harder for no reason.
8:35 I'd argue bebop can fill that same role as paradox even better because he'll have shorter cooldowns than paradox's ult and he doesnt put himself in danger either.
Haze's problem is that her wiping out teams with ult+unstoppable (with possible silencer) is her only gameplan, either its hard countered by metal skins, or her foes dont all have metal skin and are utterly destroyed. If they ever consider giving Haze ability to be of more supportive role, that could help rectify this.
Blizzard literally never reached a state in Overwatch where every character was playable, and they went months - nearly YEARS - with a single hero being must-pick A+ tier. Valve are doing just fine!
I absolutely agree. I come from an Overwatch background where we would get patches every three months, if we were lucky! Something is broken? Wait until next season for it to be fixed and it's most likely not going to be changed the way it should be. Interesting to see your tierlist, I play in Archon and Hazes with 20k soul lead winning every teamfight with BD is the norm. Great content, keep it coming :)
yeah no idea what's going on there .. Haze and Wraith are basically the two biggest current "press left-mouse and delete" chars, if they're not playing their first ever game of deadlock...
@@nergal2741 I think hes trying to say how easily counterable they are. metal skin and etheral shift back to back makes her almost useless (at least haze) She does have a lot of melt but its only really that good when she gets super close and she herself is a glass cannon.
@@seandiaz2923 yes and no. you can use those items, but it's 9200 souls for just countering one or two chars, and you need that on most of your team .. so it's about 46k souls just to counter 1-2 chars... while she could in theory just get Refresher and go for another ult right after. Also with Unstoppable and enough leech they can be unkillable because they both have 150+ ammo in the end game and haze can just insta reload, so it's 300 shots with hyperspeed. Wraith is even worse because she can just ult on you and anyone in the vicinity and left-mouse delete everyone before the debuff is over. Stupid chars that maybe struggle get going, but from midgame on they just win any 1on1 or 1vx sometimes
@@nergal2741 yes and no. Not sure what elo you play in it but that’s the point. Haze doesn’t have that kind of power to need your ENTIRE TEAM running metal skin…especially since you will definitely have some tanky characters on your team. She is very low tier. I know in low meta she shreds but what you should try focusing on in your games is trying to get your team coordinated to catch her and counter buying if you play a super squishy character. Try this and you will see she’s too easy to counter. Especially if you have anyone with a stun on your team.
Hey Deathy! I saw you had Seven at the top of the tier list, but as a Seven main I’ve been really struggling with him after the last nerfs. How are people building him? And do you have any tips?
My last 4-5 games were dominated by Haze, but I'm in very low experience lobbies. Shows that player experience has a ton to do with 'balance'. Low level players just don't have the knowledge to adapt against some builds. Makes for a thrilling experience when you first get to hard counter a build and flex some experience. Thanks for the positivity and quality content.
Yeah thats what sucks when your elo is low. Most people just run builds that get them as much damage as they can because they don't really understand counterplay. If you have even 2-3 people running metal skin, she's only dominating the tiktok doom scroll as she waits to spawn back in.
I used to play league before Deadlock and it was a nightmare, every patch tried to fix the balance but every patch just seemed to make the game worse and worse. Deadlocks balance is incredibly good and on point in that regard, phenomenal work by Valve
I’ve been coaching mobas for a long time and I had this conversation just the other day that I’m really impressed none of the Heroes feel unplayable and they all see play. People will always complain about balance but that is only relevant if the discrepancy is enough to say “Why wouldn’t you pick/ban this hero” or “why would you ever pick/ban this hero” with no good response. Most characters have enough counter play and all are playable, that’s the bottom line.
Okay two notes for my own pocket gameplay after seeing this clip 1. Need to play a lot safer 2. Need to resist using rail after winning lane and instead just rotate to farm and other lanes.
you also have to keep in mind a lot of players who are complaining about balance don't buy counter items, are 15k+ behind in souls and perma-fight with no regard to macro and lane states
on the point of wanting heroes with similar strong kits, a problem overwatch ran into was double shield. really was tough to balance, mainly because of what it enabled the rest of your team to do. i do believe it was a fault of the balance team but it introduces a new challenge for pick/bans and balance
A lot of people are hurt from previous games from other developers it's been a trend since 2020. They need to realize their dealing with valve. Although they struggle on anti cheat they do know how to make high quality games.
I think a great example of how Deadlock handles balancing is Bebop's bomb. It went from overpowered, to useless, to very good in the span of 2 days. Then they took some time, tried something that made it overpowered again, before settling on a different stacking mechanic that is still pretty good, but more importantly, fair and rewarding.
I am unaware of your gaming background @Deathy but I come from Dota and valve has been doing these small tweaks constantly instead of overreacting and nerfing thngs to the ground. I can understand why it can be frustrating since sometimes the nerfs on paper so seemingly nothing, but this is a much healthier way to balance than what LoL/OW do where they nerf a character out of existence (which valve does sometimes, but they are usually much more careful about it, or do reworks.)
Seven right now with the current state of the game is more A to B tier. early game it's 50/50 depending on who's laning against him, mid game he falls off till you make a 20k soul investment, then late game he's sorta just an okay supportive DPS. but definitely not S tier.
I like the new urn changes it feels far more fair. Mid boss doesn't feel impactful enough. I'm mostly just annoyed when enemies get it. They need to change what it does. What if it turned the enemies towers off that sounds scary.
As everyone, i though that shiv is basically dead after patch. But then i discovered that you can just invest some points in 3rd and ult, lean harder on gun rather than knifes, and boom - he is good again (or at least good enough). Like shiv is definetly worse that he was before, but as you mentioned in your video, shiv is in a unique position with how he can tank damage as no any other character can.
I was bracing myself for "But... this this and this is screwed." It never came. Fair critiques regarding urn and mid boss but i think devs are working on it actively and even they dont seem satisfied with it. Really need soem positivity in this game
I’d say the balance would be worrying if there becomes a set 6 roster of hero’s that if you don’t pick them, you’re throwing. But it seems pretty varied right now in terms of what team comps will work. However, I’ve noticed in the lower ranks, whichever team doesn’t have a bruiser or tank (Abram’s, Mo, warden) will most likely lose.
But there arent really alot heroes to Pick from. You have 12 heroes in the game. And there are only 22 heroes to Pick from. So more thant 50% of the roster is in every lobby.
I've played a ton of competitive shooters and moba's and this dev team has been incredible so far. I cant imagine complaining about a game in beta that's getting constant balance changes for the better.
One thing this game does well that I like is each hero has an identity - like every hero has 1 thing in their kit that makes them REALLY good/unique eg shiv being tanky, kelvin being a healer, so I somewhat disagree with your take on other heroes being able to do similar things as others (eg mirage has wraith lift on cd) can it be balanced? sure probably. But like having an overlap with identities and what makes a hero good isnt healthy imo. Like it should never come down to oh why play this hero when that hero can do my job but better? I feel like they went this route with ow and made the playing experience for certian heroes too similar and overlapping which just wasnt fun. Its also a reason why I never felt attracted to play GT /Vindicta they just both seem very similar to me kit-wise. Some heroes genuinely feel like ult bots too, as in you can do air entire game u just ult the guy popiping off on dynamo or mo and krill he dead, you've done your job congrats wp. Does that always win them games ? no not always but maybe its the amount of CC or maybe its p braindead, but thats something I dislike a lot and it aint fun. I think high impact ults like that should come with more risk imo. But could very well be a skill issue on my end. Ern mechanics I dislike too, never reward the game for worse players imo. But i get the intention behind it. Anyone that has played ow will know what im talking about but its similar to 2CP or Clash when ur team is owning u played better but because of spawns they manage to defend their point, not bc they actually outplayed the team, its the game did most of the work for them. The balance team might not always be on the mark no balance team ever is, but this balance team having come from ow, theyre full of passionate people and they truly try and care. They listen to people and they use stats, NOT something OW devs do, they just balance purely based on stats and shop rotation for skins. Its disgusting. I feel comfortable knowing that this game is genuinely being looked after by people who care. tl:Dr balance team epic not perfect (no balance team is) but promising.
At this point I'm just waiting for the game to come out 'properly' - I've got about 100 games but looking forward to the long-term balance/cosmetics/account progression etc.
Metal skin against haze and etheral shift against lash, its even stronger with the recent change on the ethereal shift that now guarantees 40% spiritual resistance for 5 seconds after, they both are in a realy bad spot right now
I think the game is in a great state personally. There seem to be so many viable builds on all the characters and that's so refreshing to see for a moba
I think Deadlock suffers / enjoys the same balancing dilemma as Dota 2. The game is so complicated and the meta is living quite rapidly, so it is literally impossible to achieve perfect balance. Also something important to be learned from Dota 2, is that there isn't really a perfect balanced "final" state of the game the devs are trying to achieve. Rather, the game lives over a long time. Different updates and balance changes vary the game. That is also a part what make them so fun and feel fresh.
Any chance you can explain why seven is S tier? I main him and I think he's fine but I seem to lose most fights so curious what I am doing wrong....I mainly play Ball seven
thank you for putting some positivity out there. i've been having a blast with the game, and i do agree the game is going in the right direction. balancing a multiplayer game is incredibly hard!! i'm just happy to keep getting updates at all 🥲 #ripdotaunderlords
Preach Deathy! I have never been so happy while seeing my mains get nerfed.... This game seems to really be doing things with good reasons and true experimentation in mind. I have been extremely excited to see what changes happen. And sometimes they suck for me but not in a way that makes me feel like the character is no longer worth playing. I am stoked to see where this game goes
Trust me guys it could be a lot worse. I play arena in WoW classic, we just started a new season do you want to know how much notice we got on the start date? Literally 0 minutes, the last dev post on the forums was a 3 weeks old and had 5+ people @ the main communication channel asking, how long is off season? when will the new season start? Well they surprise dropped the patch on us instead of communicating.
I think adding drafting to the game would make it feel much more balanced. Sometimes you just get screwed over and auto lose because you have noone to stop a certain enemy hero from just goomba stomping your team. Also I don't get these arguments about Deadlock being in "early development". Valve just have created a new way to soft release a game and avoid criticism. Of course the don't make any money with Deadlock right now so it is still hard to critizice them for how they are handling the game.
Im high phantom/ascendant player and I think the balance overall (besides infernus) has been great. You had dynamo lower in your list, but at high elo you KNOW im gonna be reminding my team to play around him bc his ult will ALWAYS be a huge lynchpin in the ememy's wincon. Shit like that isn't gonna change, and the balance among the cast feels good. Its gonna be worse, its gonna be better, but im just happy the game is in this alpha state. It wont be like this forever, and it will get even better as entirely new mechanics get added. It's fun!
The biggest issue i have is early game, there seems to be some hero's that do an ungodly amount of spirit dmg with 1-2 500 items. It becomes nearly impossible to leave tower in some cases even when building defensive. That stuff needs to be scaled down a bit.
@@koreanzombie6697 Guarantee they'll adjust both next patch. Especially lady geist over tuned nade. Late game shes still a tanky monster. Her grenade needs a small balance so that's its actually escapable and I think she'll be in a great spot.
@@seandiaz2923 all they need to do is make it respect line of sight and genuinely her nade is fine. It has insane range super early but if you play around cover well you can reliably dodge it. As of now it's essentially impossible to dodge unless you dodge ahead of time.
8:00 totally agree with this point. There's a bunch of stuff in the game right now that seems OP af but will have counterpicks via characters and items later on.
If defintely feels like every character can be "OP" but it usually gets decided by a couple factors. I don't see the last 4 being done in pubs and low-mid ranked lobbies (Im Archon 3) Who gets fed early Lane matchups Teamplay Itemization Countering through itemization
when the alpha version of the game isn't balanced!!! more people need to realize they are playing an early build of a game and nothing is final, just roll with it! It's kinda crazy to see cash prize tournaments for an unfinished product. I hope people learn to cut the team some slack and let them finish the game first.
Why are Seven and Infernus in S tier, let alone the top of S, when they are sitting at 46% wrs since the nerfs? (46% even after accounting for Seven's immediate compensation buff?)
![Blox Fruits Dragon Rework Update [Full Stream]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/EqDAp8udhm0/mqdefault.jpg)
the people complaining about deadlock balance need to realize that they could be dealing with the overwatch balance team.
yea overwatch team minus the balance🤣
I'm just glad they don't try to leave characters in the dumpster.
Fucking seriously, dude.
I quit Overwatch for this game, and anyone complaining about balance or characters being broken is fucking hilarious when Brigitte 1.0 carried my 30 hour-playtime ass from 600sr to 2800sr in 40 hours.
"Omg so unbalanced"
why even compare the two, it’s like comparing shit to actual food
genuinely. i moved over from overwatch and realised that the ow balance team is just really that bad. i never got as invested in a live service game as i did ow until now with deadlock and it really opened my eyes as to why they're ridiculed as much as they are.
being toxic towards devs doesn't solve or help with anything
THis should really be frowned upon and rooted out of the community
When you're this quick to throw out "toxic" it loses its meaning.
@Redthedemon227 you are unaware of some stuff I guess, y4mz a streamer has been literally saying the devs suck etc.
This kinda stuff needs to stop
Give feedback, not blame. I've personally written 2 very lengthy, in-depth balance suggestions and hero reviews about Wrecker (in-development), Haze, and now in process of breaking down exactly how sniper characters have to work in these types of games.
I have a balance background with multiplayer RPGs, first, and third person shooters. While Deadlock is a bit unique in this way, I understand the idea behind it well enough (I hope, after 200 games...) to feel comfortable giving genuine feedback.
Sometimes I engage in the discord and it causes me brain damage.
yes, no comments or feedback allowed. ban everyone who can think for themselves. communism created. how does this have 100 upvotes?
@@TennessseTimmyy4mz isn't going to make it far as a streamer or a "pro player", mark my words. The guy is hands down one of the most childish and toxic gamers I have ever seen.
I don’t understand why people get so mad about balance in a game that isn’t even out yet. I guess it says something about how fun and polished the game feels right now
I’m just don’t like that they keep un nerfing bebop, that’s all
@@swiggityswag6748 idk man Shiv is still pretty strong they should nerf Bebop's bomb
bebop bomb might be next genji meme
Better nerf Irelia
I don't understand people that say the game isn't out yet, this is as close to out as it gets. It even has a ranked mode now. Either way, it's definitely not a "closed alpha", while obviously there will be more people once it's actual in free access, the majority of the people that heard of it and have interest already played it.
I think just spreading positivity in general would be good for the deadlock community. I come from League of Legends, and i promise you, being negative and raging is the modus operandis of people. While the game is still in early development, trying to foster a more positive community could do wonders for making the game a rewarding experience for all levels of players. A rando and i literally turned a losing game around cuz we started making jokes on comms and the guys raging and saying "open and let them end" started laughing and trying to win again. Try to spread the giggles and guffaws folks
do you afk farm all game?
@@BenFoster-cx4emdo you baby rage in voice chat?
@@BenFoster-cx4emdo you repeatedly feed by taking bad team fights then scream "where is my team?!?!" And then go 4/12?
This is the first time I have seen someone do a "state of xyz" type video talking positively about that state
Valve knows how to balance. If you compare League and Dota in terms of Unpicked heroes/Unbanned heroes during major tournaments, Dota 2 pretty much always has a very high amount of hero variety picked in the tournaments.
Fr. Just reading patch notes is a masterclass in game making.
@@EGO.BReAKERR glazing
That has nothing to do with balance lol, League pros just refuse to branch out even though there’s tons of viable characters and counterpicks availabke
@@natanstunes yep azir has been nerf down to a 39 percent win rate before faker stopped locking it in every game
@@natanstunes yeah tell that to your pro player fucker who play 3 hero at most at all stages 3 pool main "pro" player LMFAO
I love Icefrog. I have been playing his game for 15 years. Now you feel the balancing of Icefrog
yeah, I played and enjoyed every moba except dota 2
Just to give people a glimpse of Icefrog being a genius at balancing:
A classic example of a creative, indirect nerf in Dota 2. It happened in Patch 7.20, released in November 2018. In this patch, Phantom Lancer (PL) had been a very strong hero for a while due to his ability to spawn multiple illusions and overwhelm opponents, especially in combination with Keeper of the Light (KOTL). KOTL's Chakra Magic could restore PL's mana, allowing him to spam his Spirit Lance and Doppelganger, thus creating even more illusions, making PL extremely hard to kill in fights.
Rather than directly nerfing Phantom Lancer's abilities or stats, Icefrog chose an indirect approach: they reduced Keeper of the Light’s base armor. KOTL is a naturally squishy support, and by lowering his armor, Valve made him more vulnerable to physical damage, especially in the laning phase. This armor reduction made it much riskier for KOTL to play aggressively or position closely to PL in fights, making the combo harder to execute effectively.
This indirect nerf reduced the dominance of the PL-KOTL combo without directly weakening PL in a way that would harm his viability when played without KOTL. It's a great example of how Dota 2's balance changes often rely on nuanced adjustments that affect the meta creatively rather than straightforwardly nerfing or buffing specific heroes.
What I'd be interested to see is what Eternus players do when they are behind in the game aside from hidden farming. How do they change their usual build? Do they continue spirit or switch to gun with more lifesteal to stay alive? Etc.
Yeah great topic! I will be covering stuff like this soon :D
When you behind, you actually have to invest more on the damage cause your stats are lower, making you have a hard time to kill the enemy, or you can adapt to buy items that support your team or disrupt an enemy.
They just lose. Games in externus last like 22 minutes. Whoever gets behind gets shitted on quickly
I get eternus's in my ranked sometimes, a Bebop in my game 2 days ago, so post nerfs was building a full spirit build with punch items and just went ham, I think his style was almost akin to a backdoor, instead he was front dooring, acknowledging that he may die but he would definitely trade for 1 or 2
@@DeathyThank you, that's the part of the game I struggle the most with currently.
thanks for staying hard deathy
#stayhard
The game is still under development . This will keep on happening for sometime.
Some player may get OP for a week or so , guys relax and enjoy the game
No, its over. The game is done. Nothing can be done to fix this game /s
It's going to happen for all time.
All long term live-service PvP games live and die by deliberately patching things and having evolving metas -- even a "balanced meta" has to be shaken up after a while or a lot of players get fatigue and stop playing.
This is my exact take
I kind of disagree with you. This is an alpha but the devs are all over the place with patches and all, and for now they have a great and strong community but people are starting to get tired of some things, and there will be a point of no return... Just like some people say, the same train doesnt pass twice!
@@theSato Nah, you don't need to have patches to have a community. My man, Smash Melee exists. People still play that stuff and it hasnt seen hide nor hair of a patch in competitive in years. People will be passionate and find counterplay if given time. Patching is a way to force it *now* instead of several years down the line.
Best thing about Valve balance is that they do a REALLY good job keeping a lot of stuff in check with itemization options.
It's 2 sides of the balance coin, and I think other MOBAs/hero shooters are either terrible at it, or don't have items to be able to balance around.
Very true!
The only state Mirage is interested in is Wisconsin
Edit: Wyoming*
@@Vilositile Wyoming* lol
😭
I might be the only person in wyoming playing deadlock
@@Psychsmoothie brother you might be the only person in wyoming 😭
@@dankluck8077 But.. howoming?
Welcome to Icefrog balancing. People been enjoying it in Dota for like 20 years at this point. I don't think there's a single dev on the planet that gets PVP balancing as good as he do, especially considering he deals with basically two of the most complex games in their respective genres.
yeah, laning against mirage feels super skillful and balanced
@@BenFoster-cx4em skill issue
@@BenFoster-cx4emit’s a closed alpha. Mirage was dog tier until now. Take your brain pills your 65 iq is showing
@@Delta_VX It really isn't. His poke is insane especially if you are on a weaker laner. A mirage with good aim will just destroy you with left clicks and he has 0 risk of being harassed to death for it. And if he makes a mistake? Cool, get out of jail free card that CCs you and makes him invulnerable.
@BenFoster-cx4em I mean, what's your point? Has anyone said that the balance is perfect? Things being broken from time to time is what makes it fun.
i quite like the frequent balance changes, it keeps the game fresh and keeps me engaged in finding out what new builds are being used and different techs that are viable. i'm sure it's not sustainable and once the game releases the balance changes will be less frequent, but for right now i'm pretty happy with the devs and what they're doing.
If you are coming from cs2 then you know how unbelievably cool it is to have a valve Dev team have transparency and accountability. The deadlock team is best in class right now
For real. I played CS for like 5 years and there have already been more deadlock updates in the last 2 months than in my whole time playing cs
yeah, an unbalanced game with zero fun base mechanics is the best gaming can do right now.
@@BenFoster-cx4em skill issue
for real .. if they would have just 10% of the Deadlock team's dedication for CS2 development .. the gretest FPS could actually hold that title
@@BenFoster-cx4emyou’re just bad at the game. Find something that’s easier for slower folks like you
Valve is great for not being super reactive to people's complaints, unless something is clearly broken, so things that appear to suck can actually be good when people figure out the intent. This happened in Dota 2. Luna got an Aghs shard rework that gave her a shield ability, and everyone said it sucked and there is no reason to pick Luna over any other hero. Yet, when TI (the premiere Dota tournament) came around, Luna was one of the most contested picks because of the Aghs shard that the teams highly prioritized.
But the Mo & Krill and Mirage buffs, I will never understand.
5:58 Dota Underlords had an official discord server with lead dev / community manager being active, but they stopped developing it before you could even spend money in it. Tbh it had similar approach to development / community interaction as Deadlock, but at least right now it doesn't seem like Deadlock will be dropped the same way as Underlords did.
Former top 30 Underlords player here. It hurt but it seems like they're pouring way more resources into this one with way more active balancing. We should be safe but never say never...
It depends if riot will make a step ahead and launch a same gender game faster and improved (as they did with TFT)
@@Arthuro3513 me when i live in the universe where league of legends doesnt exist
ive left plenty of feedback on the forum since i joined in may, and have seen quite a few suggestions implemented and that has felt so cool. love the approach valve is taking with deadlock
totally agree with you, this game has a really nice community and responsive developers.
the devs of this team seem genuinely quite competent and understand the game. i trust that they'll cook. i also come from overwatch though so honestly anything is a step above my initial introduction to balance teams.
Thanks for staying hard Deathy. Positive vibes to everyone reading this.
the games balance and ranking right now seems to be more impacted by player skill improving and devlopment of new and existing strategies rather than raw balance changes
People think it is like league balancing where they completely gut someone and then over buff someone else. They need to buff and nerf people to see where they should fall.
The game is in closed alpha.
Sometimes you have to overbuff or overnerf something to shake up the meta and prevent it from going stale.
@@luukas2660 Shittake. L-Take. If you have actual balance with a fully useable hero pool, the meta constantly evolves around tiny adjustments. Overnerf/Overbuff are the tools of braindead riot devs wanting to sell you skins.
Props for emphasizing the positive outlook we have with the awesome devs! Nice one bro
Appreciate the positivity!
”From vindicta to haze to seven to lash dominating to shiv being the server admin” hahahha that last one broke me lmao
Throwback to ti6 where Wings picks almost completely different comps for EVERY MATCH.
I want them to look into comp arrangement when putting players together in a team. Lately, I have been put in a 3-4 farm reliant heroes team. The game is harder for no reason.
8:35 I'd argue bebop can fill that same role as paradox even better because he'll have shorter cooldowns than paradox's ult and he doesnt put himself in danger either.
This is an excellent video Deathy
Haze's problem is that her wiping out teams with ult+unstoppable (with possible silencer) is her only gameplan, either its hard countered by metal skins, or her foes dont all have metal skin and are utterly destroyed. If they ever consider giving Haze ability to be of more supportive role, that could help rectify this.
Yoshi is legit top 10 dev leads.
The most important aspect of an early access game is communication.
Blizzard literally never reached a state in Overwatch where every character was playable, and they went months - nearly YEARS - with a single hero being must-pick A+ tier. Valve are doing just fine!
I absolutely agree. I come from an Overwatch background where we would get patches every three months, if we were lucky!
Something is broken? Wait until next season for it to be fixed and it's most likely not going to be changed the way it should be.
Interesting to see your tierlist, I play in Archon and Hazes with 20k soul lead winning every teamfight with BD is the norm.
Great content, keep it coming :)
yeah no idea what's going on there .. Haze and Wraith are basically the two biggest current "press left-mouse and delete" chars, if they're not playing their first ever game of deadlock...
@@nergal2741in your elo*
@@nergal2741 I think hes trying to say how easily counterable they are. metal skin and etheral shift back to back makes her almost useless (at least haze) She does have a lot of melt but its only really that good when she gets super close and she herself is a glass cannon.
@@seandiaz2923 yes and no. you can use those items, but it's 9200 souls for just countering one or two chars, and you need that on most of your team .. so it's about 46k souls just to counter 1-2 chars... while she could in theory just get Refresher and go for another ult right after. Also with Unstoppable and enough leech they can be unkillable because they both have 150+ ammo in the end game and haze can just insta reload, so it's 300 shots with hyperspeed. Wraith is even worse because she can just ult on you and anyone in the vicinity and left-mouse delete everyone before the debuff is over. Stupid chars that maybe struggle get going, but from midgame on they just win any 1on1 or 1vx sometimes
@@nergal2741 yes and no. Not sure what elo you play in it but that’s the point. Haze doesn’t have that kind of power to need your ENTIRE TEAM running metal skin…especially since you will definitely have some tanky characters on your team. She is very low tier. I know in low meta she shreds but what you should try focusing on in your games is trying to get your team coordinated to catch her and counter buying if you play a super squishy character. Try this and you will see she’s too easy to counter. Especially if you have anyone with a stun on your team.
Hey Deathy! I saw you had Seven at the top of the tier list, but as a Seven main I’ve been really struggling with him after the last nerfs. How are people building him? And do you have any tips?
My last 4-5 games were dominated by Haze, but I'm in very low experience lobbies. Shows that player experience has a ton to do with 'balance'. Low level players just don't have the knowledge to adapt against some builds. Makes for a thrilling experience when you first get to hard counter a build and flex some experience.
Thanks for the positivity and quality content.
Yeah thats what sucks when your elo is low. Most people just run builds that get them as much damage as they can because they don't really understand counterplay. If you have even 2-3 people running metal skin, she's only dominating the tiktok doom scroll as she waits to spawn back in.
I used to play league before Deadlock and it was a nightmare, every patch tried to fix the balance but every patch just seemed to make the game worse and worse. Deadlocks balance is incredibly good and on point in that regard, phenomenal work by Valve
@3:53 he breaks a box but leaves the souls alone. Does he know something I don't? or does he not care for the measly 100 souls?
ADHD
I’ve been coaching mobas for a long time and I had this conversation just the other day that I’m really impressed none of the Heroes feel unplayable and they all see play.
People will always complain about balance but that is only relevant if the discrepancy is enough to say “Why wouldn’t you pick/ban this hero” or “why would you ever pick/ban this hero” with no good response. Most characters have enough counter play and all are playable, that’s the bottom line.
Okay two notes for my own pocket gameplay after seeing this clip
1. Need to play a lot safer
2. Need to resist using rail after winning lane and instead just rotate to farm and other lanes.
At 8:50 doesn’t bebop’s hook have the same affect?
you also have to keep in mind a lot of players who are complaining about balance don't buy counter items, are 15k+ behind in souls and perma-fight with no regard to macro and lane states
Going to cry when haze gets buffed and wreaks even more havoc in my low mmr games
Ex top 500 OW player here, you don't know how good you have it.
Who cares
@@XZagatoX if you are not going to say something substantial, you can keep it to yourself
@@XZagatoX my mom is proud of me, thanks for asking.
@@XZagatoX LMAO
now try top500 in a real game
Why are people heated about a pre-release game that is likely at least a year out from development?
on the point of wanting heroes with similar strong kits, a problem overwatch ran into was double shield. really was tough to balance, mainly because of what it enabled the rest of your team to do. i do believe it was a fault of the balance team but it introduces a new challenge for pick/bans and balance
i worked in the cafeteria of riot games, i overheard they postponed the making of their mmorpg for a game similar to deadlock/overwatch
The game is in alpha let them make larger changes now without complaints.
A lot of people are hurt from previous games from other developers it's been a trend since 2020.
They need to realize their dealing with valve. Although they struggle on anti cheat they do know how to make high quality games.
“ 2 weeks later theyre gonna fix it”? Bro they update every hour whenever i play. This team is crazy responsive haha
I think a great example of how Deadlock handles balancing is Bebop's bomb. It went from overpowered, to useless, to very good in the span of 2 days. Then they took some time, tried something that made it overpowered again, before settling on a different stacking mechanic that is still pretty good, but more importantly, fair and rewarding.
Amazing take that I don’t think is said enough, thanks Deathy
I am unaware of your gaming background @Deathy but I come from Dota and valve has been doing these small tweaks constantly instead of overreacting and nerfing thngs to the ground. I can understand why it can be frustrating since sometimes the nerfs on paper so seemingly nothing, but this is a much healthier way to balance than what LoL/OW do where they nerf a character out of existence (which valve does sometimes, but they are usually much more careful about it, or do reworks.)
Seven right now with the current state of the game is more A to B tier.
early game it's 50/50 depending on who's laning against him, mid game he falls off till you make a 20k soul investment, then late game he's sorta just an okay supportive DPS. but definitely not S tier.
I feels better when every heroes is broken, than every heroes is useless and kinda the same ballpark.
I like the new urn changes it feels far more fair.
Mid boss doesn't feel impactful enough. I'm mostly just annoyed when enemies get it.
They need to change what it does.
What if it turned the enemies towers off that sounds scary.
As everyone, i though that shiv is basically dead after patch. But then i discovered that you can just invest some points in 3rd and ult, lean harder on gun rather than knifes, and boom - he is good again (or at least good enough).
Like shiv is definetly worse that he was before, but as you mentioned in your video, shiv is in a unique position with how he can tank damage as no any other character can.
love the render settings
Would love to see duos for ranked and a larger window of time for ranked.
I was bracing myself for "But... this this and this is screwed." It never came. Fair critiques regarding urn and mid boss but i think devs are working on it actively and even they dont seem satisfied with it. Really need soem positivity in this game
I’d say the balance would be worrying if there becomes a set 6 roster of hero’s that if you don’t pick them, you’re throwing. But it seems pretty varied right now in terms of what team comps will work. However, I’ve noticed in the lower ranks, whichever team doesn’t have a bruiser or tank (Abram’s, Mo, warden) will most likely lose.
But there arent really alot heroes to Pick from. You have 12 heroes in the game. And there are only 22 heroes to Pick from. So more thant 50% of the roster is in every lobby.
I don't really feel the overturned stuff in this game, because I feel everyone is overpowered, and everything can be countered.
Curious as to why you have Seven in Deadlock? Never had one do good in my games
Although hook may be a bit harder use, bebop should be able to force more initiations than paradox with the faster cooldown
I've played a ton of competitive shooters and moba's and this dev team has been incredible so far. I cant imagine complaining about a game in beta that's getting constant balance changes for the better.
One thing this game does well that I like is each hero has an identity - like every hero has 1 thing in their kit that makes them REALLY good/unique eg shiv being tanky, kelvin being a healer, so I somewhat disagree with your take on other heroes being able to do similar things as others (eg mirage has wraith lift on cd) can it be balanced? sure probably. But like having an overlap with identities and what makes a hero good isnt healthy imo. Like it should never come down to oh why play this hero when that hero can do my job but better? I feel like they went this route with ow and made the playing experience for certian heroes too similar and overlapping which just wasnt fun. Its also a reason why I never felt attracted to play GT /Vindicta they just both seem very similar to me kit-wise.
Some heroes genuinely feel like ult bots too, as in you can do air entire game u just ult the guy popiping off on dynamo or mo and krill he dead, you've done your job congrats wp. Does that always win them games ? no not always but maybe its the amount of CC or maybe its p braindead, but thats something I dislike a lot and it aint fun. I think high impact ults like that should come with more risk imo. But could very well be a skill issue on my end. Ern mechanics I dislike too, never reward the game for worse players imo. But i get the intention behind it. Anyone that has played ow will know what im talking about but its similar to 2CP or Clash when ur team is owning u played better but because of spawns they manage to defend their point, not bc they actually outplayed the team, its the game did most of the work for them.
The balance team might not always be on the mark no balance team ever is, but this balance team having come from ow, theyre full of passionate people and they truly try and care. They listen to people and they use stats, NOT something OW devs do, they just balance purely based on stats and shop rotation for skins. Its disgusting. I feel comfortable knowing that this game is genuinely being looked after by people who care.
tl:Dr balance team epic not perfect (no balance team is) but promising.
Nice video and a great outlook on the balancing changes.
Only thing I get mad about in Deadlock is over farming.
Those new health bars look so crisp wtf
Might I add, this game is considered to be STILL IN PLAYTEST. The amount of people treating and complaining as if it's an already completed game.
How did you get the healthbars to look like that? Is it a setting I missed or something else
Good video Deathy.
Deathy always with the top tier content!!
I noticed these new health bars? How do you change them in game?
replying because I also do not know, big thinks
F7, console:
citadel_unit_status_use_new true
How do you set the healthbars to what they're like in the video
Great video as always
Dawg you commented this a minute after the video came out.
Why do i feel like history is repeating
At this point I'm just waiting for the game to come out 'properly' - I've got about 100 games but looking forward to the long-term balance/cosmetics/account progression etc.
Metal skin against haze and etheral shift against lash, its even stronger with the recent change on the ethereal shift that now guarantees 40% spiritual resistance for 5 seconds after, they both are in a realy bad spot right now
I think the game is in a great state personally. There seem to be so many viable builds on all the characters and that's so refreshing to see for a moba
Great video as always. I would love a video from you where you explain just how to play the game. Early, mid, lategamey most important skills, ...
excellent video as always, you bring a well balanced perspective that i think more creators need to keep in mind.
As a Mirage main, I can say that Mirage is fine. Great vid!
I think Deadlock suffers / enjoys the same balancing dilemma as Dota 2.
The game is so complicated and the meta is living quite rapidly, so it is literally impossible to achieve perfect balance.
Also something important to be learned from Dota 2, is that there isn't really a perfect balanced "final" state of the game the devs are trying to achieve. Rather, the game lives over a long time. Different updates and balance changes vary the game. That is also a part what make them so fun and feel fresh.
8:52 what about bebops hook? It reloads few seconds and in the team fight a single hook can make a lot
W tier list i agree with everything besides 1 thing i think Yamato should be down with haze due to how easy it is to counter.
Any chance you can explain why seven is S tier? I main him and I think he's fine but I seem to lose most fights so curious what I am doing wrong....I mainly play Ball seven
hey deathy what is the health bar change you have on your screen? It looks easier to see
thank you for putting some positivity out there. i've been having a blast with the game, and i do agree the game is going in the right direction. balancing a multiplayer game is incredibly hard!! i'm just happy to keep getting updates at all 🥲 #ripdotaunderlords
Preach Deathy! I have never been so happy while seeing my mains get nerfed.... This game seems to really be doing things with good reasons and true experimentation in mind. I have been extremely excited to see what changes happen. And sometimes they suck for me but not in a way that makes me feel like the character is no longer worth playing. I am stoked to see where this game goes
Trust me guys it could be a lot worse. I play arena in WoW classic, we just started a new season do you want to know how much notice we got on the start date?
Literally 0 minutes, the last dev post on the forums was a 3 weeks old and had 5+ people @ the main communication channel asking, how long is off season? when will the new season start?
Well they surprise dropped the patch on us instead of communicating.
I think adding drafting to the game would make it feel much more balanced. Sometimes you just get screwed over and auto lose because you have noone to stop a certain enemy hero from just goomba stomping your team.
Also I don't get these arguments about Deadlock being in "early development". Valve just have created a new way to soft release a game and avoid criticism. Of course the don't make any money with Deadlock right now so it is still hard to critizice them for how they are handling the game.
Im high phantom/ascendant player and I think the balance overall (besides infernus) has been great.
You had dynamo lower in your list, but at high elo you KNOW im gonna be reminding my team to play around him bc his ult will ALWAYS be a huge lynchpin in the ememy's wincon. Shit like that isn't gonna change, and the balance among the cast feels good.
Its gonna be worse, its gonna be better, but im just happy the game is in this alpha state. It wont be like this forever, and it will get even better as entirely new mechanics get added. It's fun!
The biggest issue i have is early game, there seems to be some hero's that do an ungodly amount of spirit dmg with 1-2 500 items. It becomes nearly impossible to leave tower in some cases even when building defensive. That stuff needs to be scaled down a bit.
Have you played dota? If not valve loves to make this subclass of "nukers", with late game drawbacks etc..
Talon 1 and geist bomb is pretty frustrating on lane.. short cds, big damage and long range.
If that’s the case they are playing the role and hero correctly. If you manage to survive lane you’re probably winning mid-late
@@koreanzombie6697 Guarantee they'll adjust both next patch. Especially lady geist over tuned nade. Late game shes still a tanky monster. Her grenade needs a small balance so that's its actually escapable and I think she'll be in a great spot.
@@seandiaz2923 all they need to do is make it respect line of sight and genuinely her nade is fine. It has insane range super early but if you play around cover well you can reliably dodge it. As of now it's essentially impossible to dodge unless you dodge ahead of time.
8:00 totally agree with this point. There's a bunch of stuff in the game right now that seems OP af but will have counterpicks via characters and items later on.
Could never hate on these devs when ive played overwatch
Did u see the Halloween map btw? Looks sick. I can't believe we have a haloween event in an alpha
If defintely feels like every character can be "OP" but it usually gets decided by a couple factors. I don't see the last 4 being done in pubs and low-mid ranked lobbies (Im Archon 3)
Who gets fed early
Lane matchups
Teamplay
Itemization
Countering through itemization
The fact there's a "the state of deadlock" video already when its not even a year old is crazy 🤣
What’s up with the health bars? They look great.
when the alpha version of the game isn't balanced!!! more people need to realize they are playing an early build of a game and nothing is final, just roll with it! It's kinda crazy to see cash prize tournaments for an unfinished product. I hope people learn to cut the team some slack and let them finish the game first.
Why are Seven and Infernus in S tier, let alone the top of S, when they are sitting at 46% wrs since the nerfs? (46% even after accounting for Seven's immediate compensation buff?)
This is a high elo tier list brother