Download a done for you Obsidian vault for writers and creators, complete with 150 sample notes, tutorials and a zettelkasten mini-course: flowlabs.co/zettelkasten
This video spared me probably tens of hours wasted going down the rabbit hole of confusion which abounds on this topic. Knowing what *not* do is often more important than knowing what to do. Thanks, now I have a clear discerning criteria for discarding tutorials at an early stage.
Great video! As someone who has used the analog Zettelkasten method for years and only recently has been transitioning to also using it digitally, I totally agree!
My system is 1. Physical notebooks and daily note taking. 2. All of those physical notes screen shotted and further annotation to Apple Notes 3. Reinforce key concepts with Calender reminders alerts on a weekly, monthly bases depending on the concept. Wash, Rinse, Repeat. Very useful when learning abstract Hapax Legomenons.
The concept of friction and the way it could relate to discipline really helped recontextualize this whole process, thank you. It reminds me a lot of the bullet journal method. I always did that by hand with a pen and paper, and it always felt effortless; in reality, I was filtering out what didn't matter, and writing only what best served documenting. My current obsidian vault has become a constant daunting thing, because i felt like a maintainer of a productivity system and not a writer. I hope I'll be able to evolve my approach with this new inspiration!
Thank you, I'm so glad this inspired you. I could totally relate. My initial experience with Obsidian was to make it this all in one productivity system. I soon realized without the intent of writing outputs, it quickly becomes an endless information maintenance system and another source of overwhelm. The challenge of digital is constantly fighting the collector's fallacy because its so easy to effortlessly capture information based on some artificial encounter with it. Then we start to think that just by organizing and linking that information, we have advanced our learning. No, that is just making personal wikilinks.
Thank you Tony. Your comments go straight to the point. I have checked the system about a year ago, but at that time it would be impossible to me apply it. Now that I am returning to it, I am glad I watched your explanation! My sincere gratitude!
Thanks. My interpretation of fleeting, literature, and permanent notes are as follows. Fleeting keeps quick ideas. Literature is writing an idea from my source in my own words. Permanent linked to a literature note uses my ideas or questions. I like your take too.
OMG! Dude thank you so much! It finally makes sense now. I like you scoured the Internet for information to learn about how to do zettelkasten, got confused and gave up. You brought me back to life concerning zettlkasten. It makes so much sense now. Keep the content coming because I subscribed to your channel and got rid of all the other confusing channels!👍
I really like your view of positive friction ! Because you are constraint, have to focus on what you want to write down. And this is certainly one success or Twitter at the very beginning. You have to think of the right words to fit the 160 characters of a tweet. From contraint comes creativity. and because you have to focus, you will remember the content more easily too. Thank you !
This is literally the FIRST video that perfectly captures some of the questions I’ve had about starting Zettlekasten. I wish i could just facetime you while you show me how you use your system in practice. I have so many questions about Zettlekasten and no one to ask face to face.
on updating existing notes, I see many benefits with adding new note that refute existing note. first time I read about zettelkasten being the thinking partner, I have no idea what everyone talked about. then I read an essay titled "niklas luhmann card index" by johannes F.K schmidt where he describe Luhmann's slipbox as an intellectual autobiography. from there everything make sense now
@@chaosordeal294 most of the time the conflict comes from an external source that make us rethink things, but sure the active process of internal debate is not explored that much outside academic structures
I believe that as we learn things we tend to find new truths and paths that previously were unimaginable. Though sometimes we learned new things but didn't connect the dots on the spot regarding two or more areas of knowledge, that's the moment when you get in conflict with yourself and if you can take time to actually reflect on the matter you could find something new without the immediate exterior interference. If you stop to think about it though, all we know must start with exterior interference.
Many thanks Tony. This was so welcome for me, as I also have been confused by the same explanations of digital Zettelkasten on RUclips. As a fellow 'Hunter' type I can all too easily be drawn into refining (editing) existing notes, each time I revisit them to create a link. I am going to re-watch this video many times over the coming days until I can write it up in 50 words or less :-) Please keep this content coming - its having a genuinely beneficial impact.
Such an enlightening video thank you so much ! This is exactly what I do but I didn’t know it was a thing ! First, I write my thoughts on paper because they are clearer this way, and then I copy them on Obsidian. I didn’t know how to call this way of taking notes, I just thought I was an indecisive person, until you mentioned the word « hybrid » ! Now everything makes sense ! I don’t have to choose between digital and analogue, I can have a hybrid system :) Many many thanks ! Also, before this video, my notes on paper were not proper cards. They were written on random sheets that I threw away after having copied them on Obsidian. Now I will make real filed small cards :) !
THIS, this video clears up everything for me. Its been very confusing for me about the workflow and types of notes in zettel after watching +- 4 videos
Amazing!! You get it!! I am just starting my PhD and trying to find the best way to study and record my knowledge! I have Dyslexia and undiagnosed ADHD 🎉and you have helped me so much thank you!!
I feel that people are also missing that the unique identifiers capture the (or at least some) order of the thought process. I find that important for when you're writing, because it provides a structure in addition to the links that can be followed.
Writing by hand is by far the best way to retain knowledge and arrive at conclusions. The good friction you're describing is what helps us think, and there's a lot of that when you're writing on paper - or even on a tablet, but without editing. I've been a very pro-digital writer my entire life, but the more I write this way, the more I realize I'm just typing things out because I like the process, but not the thinking and processing that writing involves; analog is sure slower, but the speed of digital writing sometimes comes with a cost of quality of your writing and your thinking, and at that point, why even write something. I really wish your words reached the same number as those of the people with fancier thumbnails. Thanks!
Definetly, that is why I alwasy use both. Say I am reading a book, I have a sheet of paper of that book, where I write my nots, in their roughest forms, but just enough that i can go back on them and understand them. I then REread the book, but only on the pages where i wroter notes, comments, etc. on my second rethrough, I put it on obsidian, where I elaborate and tag them
@@martinwilches6583 nice approach with a separate sheet! The fixed layout is a little unforgiving when it comes to notebooks and such, so I'm going to try using a ring system so I can re-attach and rearrange things easily whenever I have to. Do you just get by with a single sheet or do you end up using multiple ones?
Or... you could slow down, stop, and think when writing digitally. It's not a restrain imposed on you by the form of writing, it's the restrain imposed on you by lack of habits. Analog writing does help you retain better, that is a fact, but mostly due to the fact that many people when taking notes digitally turn off their brain and regurgitate everything they hear. I would expect somebody who understands why analog writing helps them think and write better to be able to replicate that in a digital setting.
@@Gigusx Human beings are not creatures of pure willpower. It's a very enticing and flattering idea to think you have as much control over yourself as you're willing to exert, but the truth is, you're constantly being influenced by a number of factors when making any sort of decisions - writing is no exception. Think of the marshmallow experiment or the hazard controls pyramid - in both, the most effective strategy is to eliminate the less-than-desired factor. We're not really designed to be doing nothing and we've been trying to avoid having to do nothing (i.e. being bored) for millennia, so it's hardly any surprise that between typing something out on a keyboard and just doing nothing we tend to prefer the former. Of course, you're right that it's absolutely possible to just think before you type and all, but the obstacles and frictions that the analog writing causes makes you think even more, because writing it out takes more time and energy and your brain just tries to conserve resources as it always does, so end you end up doing more of the activity that, in comparison, to your brain seems a little less costly. Going by your logic, we shouldn't introduce any speed limits and physical means of making drivers feel less inclined to drive fast in general, because, well, can't they just not drive too fast? In the Netherlands, they've been structuring some roads in a way that makes you swerve left and right or just drive along a seemingly narrow pathway, which only feels safe and controlled at a lower speed that's ultimately safer for everyone (i.e. the driver and the pedestrians). This is a good practice that takes the willpower away and allows the participants to truly focus on what they're doing - writing or driving, for example. I'm sure you won't deny that having full control over yourself for an extended period of time is tedious and, honestly, almost impossible for the vast majority of circumstances we find ourselves in. This conscious effort of thinking more than writing/typing, or keeping your speed in check, is not very necessary, because you can externalize the barriers you would otherwise set in your head, in return being able to focus on the outcome rather than the means.
@@jrknsOFF Man, you've extrapolated things into a completely different direction... I'm not gonna argue with you on the point willpower because it's spot on, but it's also not what I was saying. I said you're lacking habits, not willpower (and not accidently). And I'm assuming we're both clear on the fact that habits, by definition, are the opposite of being dependent on your willpower. The way you react when you write currently is also a habit you've already formed - there's nothing stopping you from swapping it out for something more useful, the same way you do with analogous habits in any other situation. Becoming aware of how you think, or even thinking in the first place, while writing is also just a habit that can be built. You're also welcome to introduce as much or as little friction as you want during your digital writing process - there's far more room for improvement there than on paper.
The biggest misconception in the PKM bubble about Luhmann and Zettelkasten is that Luhmann did not wrote "atomic notes" or he contrained himself to one Zettel/slip. He mostly wrote longer paragraphs/little essays in longhand often over multiple Zettel.
Exactly, well worth mentioning. Atomic notes are another invention of Ahrens that was never used before. “Atomicty” happens organically, you don’t impose it upon writing a note. I’m thinking this might need a follow up video because there’s plenty I left out involving misconceptions around “fleeting notes”, something Luhmann also didn’t use.
I'm not sure I understand what you mean. My understanding is that the Zettelkasten contains permanent zettels but also "indexes" or "summaries" for more fleshed-out topics, and that these serve as entry-points to the Zettels that underpin them. Is this what you're referring to?
The point of atomicity is that the "atomic note" can be linked (embedded) to multiple other notes. When you have longer paragraphs, it may be part of the note that can be used. And the whole point of the Zettelkasten system is to discover hidden connections that were not obvious.
Oh my god, thanks man. I was trying to approach zettelkasten a few years and I was having the same issues with every video or article about that system. Finally I've got a clear understanding of the actual result and process
I am much more confused when my obsidian contains a lot of notes with very short text. I noticed that I enjoy much more to write longer notes with more information. These notes end up to be very valuable to me, whereas the very short notes and are mostly disappearing between all the other short notes. So to conclude, Just do whatever fits your personal style and your brain and don't listen that much to RUclips videos how it should be...
5:20 is gold! AND it flies in the face of the Instagrammized influencer society. Knowing that the friction serves a purpose AND that the innate messiness of the process serves a purpose is liberating. Most material describing Zettlekasten is over produced and edited to focus on result, not process. Particularly the habit of overwriting and editing in place. I would love to see livestreams of people like @morganeua working on their notes, for example
This was the most lucid approach that I've seen. I'm really thankful and less anxious!! I've a doubt now. I'm migrating my notion to Obisidian and I really don't figure how my saved articles and web resources (that I'm treating as "Sources") will be linked/tagged to the rest or my knowledge base (seems to me that they're "source notes") -or should I leave then to avoid "wikipediate my system"? If someone on comments has any idea or approach, feel free to answer too.
@@TonyRamella I’ve retired that channel so it’s up to you brother! There’s def needs someone who isn’t an absolute purist. Your hybrid approach is valuable. I’ve said Schepper was wrong about digital Zettlekasten not being possible. Outlines are the secret. But I’m curious about your thoughts on this: what happens when the Zettlekastenis do deep that the screen isn’t wide enough to display the indented tabs? It’s been my one unsolvable issue. It only takes about eight loves to reduce the line visibility to 1-3 words.
Thanks for this. It really clarifies some of what's really going on in a ZK. What some people don't get about one idea per card/note is that multiple ideas will break the linking logic of the whole system. If a note has 2 ideas, then some notes linking to it will be linked to thought 1, some to thought 2. This dilutes the clarity of how/why two notes are linked, and the other notes linked to those. Add a third or fourth thought on a note and it gets exponentially worse.
I can agree. I got discouraged by those videos. My Obsidian Zettelkasten was overloaded, too complicated and the system did not fit me very well. Then I wachted a video that presented a differened idea. Just make notes and connect them via that wonderful obsidean tool + some index notes. I really can encourgae you to start very simple and add tools as you go along. I quickly noticed what I need and added those few tools. My current system is a speration into litarutre notes and simple notes. So in literature notes I write down book title, author etc. but also the notes from the book which are generally quiet long. In my main notes I trya to extract key ideas from texts i found interesting and I also add own thoughts. I ignored the "dont build your own wiki" advice you talked about. And I think thats why I did not really used my main notes as much. I often edited and changed things and at the end I spend more time "fixing" my old cards than doing what I really wanted to do in the first place. I think making them permanent indeed and to contrain them to 80-100 words is a great idea. I am going to implment that right away. I would try out my own analog Zettelkasten but buying everything for that seems to be too expensive at the moment. Nice video, greetings from Germany.
@@thetom449 an analog box only costs as much as a pack of index cards to start, so about $4 max. If you order them on Amazon it will likely ship in a box you can use as the zettelkasten. I would encourage you to at least use note cards for writing source notes, it’s incredibly effective and helps you become a better reader. As far as avoiding building a wiki, a good rule of thumb is don’t write notes on things you can easily find with a Google search.
I started with dollarstore index cards. $1 I now use 4x6 cards in a photo box. I just prefer the size, and I like my pretty cardboard box. This cost less then $10.
I have a hard time with constraining a note to 80-100 words. Many of the notes that I have related to my day job are technical in nature, and I'll keep enough information there to either produce process guides, or other long-form content. That's a me problem that I need to work out. That being said, I'm really glad I found this video, it's cleared up a few things for me. I had pretty much given up on Zetteling because it all just felt so subjective and wishy-washy. Thanks for taking the time to walk through it concisely.
I found it useful to separate permanent notes from reference notes. A simple rule of thumb for me is that permanent notes have to be in my own words. Reference notes can be copy and paste. Since their value is usually providing step-by-step instructions, there's no need to paraphrase.
Analog Zettelkasten definitely helps, obsidian doesn't click with me neither, but once I tried adopting physical notes, the whole process become clear, although it takes more time. From choosing cetain types of note cards to customized slip box. And what the most valueable thing to me is that I can play with these cards and arrange these cards in the orders that I want to.
Thank you a lot. The best description of the system. Sweeping out all the complexity that was never the part of the system I believe. Thank you one more time!
This raised some fascinating points. I have been trying to wrap my arms around Obsidian and Zettelkasten for several weeks and you have definitely inspired me to rethink my approach. I wonder though if others would disagree with some of your takes. Would love to see you debate or discuss these points against someone with differing views.
I would love to. I don't think it can be argued that my approach is not true to zettelkasten, but it can certainly be debated if certain aspects are necessary in a digital version. Ultimately this is what has worked for me and my students, but I believe theres also enough freedom to be creative in your implementation of it without losing core aspects of what makes a zettelkasten valuable.
@@TonyRamella Totally. Everything you said resonated with me a lot. I think it's easy to fall into the trap of collecting information instead of crafting a tool to use to think.
A part of the difficulty of giving an answer to, ‘What makes a note permanent?’, is that each person has a different set of criteria to determine whether they have enough knowledge to create a note which meets the desiderata of the ‘permanent note’, e.g., atomicity. If one is satisfied with rather a poorly articulated idea because one feels that it really expresses the extent of their understanding (or anyone’s), there is nothing to say that their calling it permanent isn’t warranted. I think for most people what this means is running up against the idea that their system (and in a deeper sense, their knowledge itself) won’t tell them whether their knowledge system-something external, something ’objective’, lol-can produce notes worthy of the label of permanency. In my own case, the vast majority of my notes are ‘process notes’. They’re discursive, messy, unfinished, contradictory, BUT, the system I use labels, to a specific extent, the relationship that these kind of notes-these process notes-have to one another. In this way, thinking is documented, enriched, built upon. ‘Permanent notes’ are just those that I have decided can ‘act as’ defeasible claims, and they are really very rarely made. Why? Because a lot of thinking, a lot of writing has to take place first. What makes them especially different is how I use them to think. No doubt their format, atomicity, brevity, etc, helps, but what makes them ‘permanent’ is the fact that they take on a different meaning in their use-they ‘act as’ assertions that I use to build upon, to attempt thinking further. They become temporary presuppositions (or carry them, inherently). So, no, I don’t think it’s just a matter of ‘if it’s linked it’s permanent’, because then there’s no metric of measuring the value of the information between any given note. Certainly one note is going to be more permanent-more important-than another, and if this is the case, they need to be more accessible, e.g., by being labelled as such. As the number of notes which pertain to a particular area grow, differentiation between the kinds of notes (which represent kinds of thinking process) become more and more necessary. This determining of note labelling then becomes an act of interpreting the types of thought one engages in; there is no single formula, but no doubt there are certain features which, having been identified, do not hinder the process of knowledge development using those notes. My belief is that Luhman was exceptionally good at knowing when he knew something in enough detail that it was worth writing a zettel on (probably because he’d written a f*** ton in discursive note style first on the topic), and also of course at writing an exceptionally condensed representation of the idea. My feeling is then that, actually, very few people do enough work to warrant writing even a single Zettel. Sure, friction is certainly an important idea, but I’m not sold on outsourcing this to constraints outside of my own will. Otherwise, I might end up believing too much in dependence on technology, ironically. Maybe physical notes are a good start, but then, maybe thinking about only one idea for a week is even better? Normative forces are real baby - we live in a world of information management coping mechanism development.
this.... this changesss everythingggg :))) thank you i was about to go insane from watching videos of atomic notes and literature notes and stuff but thisssss this all makes sense now yayy
Appreciate your video! It's been a great help on my journey. I'm diving into Zettelkasten to improve my note-taking, which can be messy at times. In fact, I'm thinking of using Zettelkasten to document this whole learning experience! With that in mind, I have a couple of questions. Based on this video, I created a "source note." I've also made similar notes while watching videos from Gurus :). (I thought I was making "literature notes" before). Now I have a strong urge to edit some of those notes, I'm guessing once I refine them, they can become "permanent notes". But, like any other learning experience, the next time I revisit this same video say after a couple of months, I'll likely have more to add because my understanding would have grown. So, my questions are: 1) Even if a previous "source note" is quite short, should I create a new one entirely if I have new insights to add? 2) Let's say I also made a "main note" after I thought I understood the topic. - Why shouldn't I add more to this note if I have something that enhances the content and is very relevant to the topic? PS: I ask this to explore a wider range of opinions, even though I know I will ultimately create my own Zettelkasten workflow that suits my preferences. As a software engineer myself, I strongly believe that keeping things digital gives us an advantage in terms of keeping our notes evolving.
No editing after is filed! Indeed. In the end, if you get the idea down and it is linked sensibly, then you are on the right track. The notes didn't have to be perfect, just finally findable.
Thank you for the clarification with this. I have a mostly analogue brain and trying to learn this digitally has been a nightmare. I'll be buying some notecards and a box.
I've been looking into this method recently and the different buzzwords I hear on RUclips do not provide clarity. This video seems different, I'll check out more!
yes true, i dont not use obsidian for task or project management, it is solely for notes. if i want to do task management i use todoist, project managament id use notion or trello or something.
I realized everything you said 3 years ago and as a writer I only got out of the infinite loop of knowledge hoarding of my own thoughts when I decided I have to have the purpose of writing to publish and not writing to learn. Learning happens along the way but if it’s my main goal then I will never publish a thing.
"Knowledge hoarding of my own thoughts" This part really caught my eye. Could you elaborate, please? Do you mean writing down thoughts that have no long-term value?
@@Alex5000148 sure I can explain for me but of course it’s subjective for everyone. I love to write a lot and realize that writing helps develop your speaking voice and builds confidence so I don’t think any form of writing is a waste but I do think if we aren’t intentional about our writing and not prioritize WHY we are writing then we can end up in a self imposed prison of collection and learning knowledge but doing nothing with it. Similar to how people watch/read productivity or self help content everyday and they learn a lot but they do nothing with it….they are hoarding information mentally and some hoard and put it that information away in a note taking app but to actually DO something with that information many don’t because the dopamine hit of collecting was what they were after. We see this with people who obsessively buy clothes, cars, and are material things…they collect and collect or rather hoard those things but once they have them they don’t do anything with them or take care to nurture and fully develop them. Like with writing I have seen people in this niche (I used to be one) hoard and hoard away through excitement, all the free knowledge on the internet and obsidian, logseq, or whatever notes app is there home where they’ve done nothing with what they collected. Systems don’t help to organize your collection of knowledge when you don’t prioritize WHY you are collecting in the first place. I saw myself doing this with my own thoughts and studies and insights and would write more and more daily because I was excited to learn and study the world around me but I got caught up and forgot to just hit publish to DO something with those writings and now I don’t do that anymore. Mix that with being a experfectionist and in didn’t want to hit publish because I always needed to tweak and add something to my writings (since I was always building on it) so my writings were never “finished” according to me….which led to more hoarding and not sharing of my knowledge. So I stopped trying to make a vanity glorified notes graph and notes vault and just share what I got and add onto what is published and I feel better 😂.
I think zettelcasten was needed when the only option was to write notes on paper. Relationships should help with finding needed notes. But now we have ability to do text search in almost every application
Unless you have a proper tagging and/or cataloguing system, you're losing it after some time anyway. It becomes a pile of files, notes, paragraphs or whatever else. Digital is just faster to write, edit, share, and delete, but it doesn't necessarily mean it's better to write to think in digital.
I thought that the notes on the index card were fleeting notes, without so much data. You notes seem like a confluence of data, when it’s supposed to be a quick concept. Of course you can adapt the system to your needs.
Yes, this is more of a rule of thumb to help guide the purpose of condensing that idea to a note so it doesn't become more of an essay. It is not a necessary rule you should place on yourself when writing main notes because it can sometimes add too much friction and prevent you from just writing. In my experience, atomicty happens organically.
In short, you did the right thing: I found that Luhmann's information management system is not more complicated, but it is more effective than the influencers talking about taking notes on Obsidian. Because he took notes by hand: - Studies show that taking notes by hand has a positive impact on many different brain areas. - Writing by hand is slower than typing: 1) The slowness of handwriting helps Luhmann consider and select important words to write in literature notes. -> he will remember better 2) the brain is relaxed -> the brain is more creative: when writing literature notes -> he will come up with more ideas so he can write permanent notes. To put it more simply. Luhmann takes notes to find as many ideas as possible to write in permanent notes, then these permanent notes will become a complete essay after Luhmann connects them together. And writing citations, summaries of content and citing sources in literature are just proof that his ideas are correct (ironically, people who make content about obsidian (also Tiago Forte) just encourage copy-paste). Thus, copying highlights from Kindle to Obsidian becomes useless if you don't understand anything about highlights and don't get any ideas from them. I don't claim that typing makes us stupid, because people who write on computers have a habit of carefully correcting spelling and arguments, which helps them think more deeply = more smart.
Heyo! I got the notecards, I got a box, I've got things to read and extract from. And I realized I'm not sure how to make the indexing code system that goes on the card. Is this in one of your videos and I'm not finding it? Or is it super obvious and I'm just being a dunce?
Look up Folgezettel. Scott Scheper's channel is a good resource for analog ZK although I find his top down categorization approach to the numeric alpha cataloging adds too much friction for my liking. You could start real simple and just give your first note number 1. From there you go 1a, 1a1, 1a2, 2b, 2b1, 2b2a, 2b2a1, etc.
Luhmann himself wrote: It is not important where you store a Zettel as long as you can reference it from every other point to the Zettelkasten, so don't overthink the numbering, just index keywords/concepts and reference the catalog number.
At this point, i really just wanna see an actual example of the method in use on real content. Im 25% through the book, and the only examples are abstract. Author and everyone keeps saying "It is actually a very simple method", yet why am i using so much time trying to learn it then?? Cornell notes took no time to learn at all...
It's not, it's just that Zettelkasten isn't for that at all. Zettelkasten is Zettel-first, or note-first, meaning that you collect these ideas, talk to them, store in a way that makes it easy for you to access later, all for the purpose of comprising all of that thinking into a final product, like a book or an essay or some sort of conclusion for yourself. In a way, Zettelkasten, as a method we largely understand today, is just the means. You can use that means, for example, to build a proper wiki for yourself, but no wiki is a Zettelkasten - because Zettelkasten is for somewhat raw bits of your thoughts that you may turn into something bigger and more defined later, maybe even out of dozens, hundreds of individual notes.
I have watched several videos on Zettelkasten and they all basically said the same thing. Obsidian can be used however you want, so people Zettelkast a little bit differently. I use Obsidian daily and here's how I Zettelkast: I don't, ever, not into it. It would be a waste of time for my purposes, and I already have a method that is very useful.
Example. You have a 10000 notes Zettelkasten. And you decide to let me use it. I have ONE idea and ONE note to put it in to your Zettelkasten. I have no idea what your Zettelkasten is about and which notes it contains. I do not know any relations existing between notes. I have no idea about the context surrounding each of your notes. Just BLANK MIND. How do i put my note in your Zettelkasten so it will be mindfully connected to as much of your existing notes as it can be? Please describe a step by step process of my interaction with yours Zettelkasten.
I'm not sure why this situation would ever occur but I'll entertain it. You would have to browse through the index of my zk and find the key words/concepts that relate most to your note, then you can link it from there.
@@TonyRamella so the index cards are like maps of content or like the title of a book? And after i put my note i need to put the information about it in to the index? Is that correct?
Yes, I apologize to all my German friends. In America, if you pronounce a foreign word the correct way, you sound pretentious. If you pronounce it the wrong way, you sound like an idiot to its native speakers. Either way, you can't win :) Thanks for watching. Wait until you hear my pronunciation of "folgezettel" (I apologize in advance)
@@TonyRamella "you sound pretentious" wait, what? Really? You truly shocked me, it's new for me. For me, and probably many of Europeans, it is respect. Also, I check foreign word prononciation just because I am curious how it sounds (German is not my mother tongue).
Agree, same as small peterson that talk fast. Both of them sound smart but then they talk about something you know you see how much of idiots they are. - P.s. ask gpt-4 who is it, it answer that small Peterson in Ben Shapiro @@t0dd000
@@plaidchuckso you cant say wise stuff anymore? Who says peterson claims to be the inventor of this thought? He probably just wants to help others and therfore gave them that knowledge
Notion / Obsidian / Logseq / etc. all suck because youre stuck in their ecosystem ... the most important piece is that you take the information and *do something with it* and thats the messy bit doing any of these dZettle ... unless it becomes easy to create a workflow that allows for referencing, outputting in different formats, and finally *publishing the information*
I will add that with Obsidian/Logseq you are not quite stuck in their ecosystem like you are with Notion. Obsidian is just a plaintext editor. You own the markdown files and do not depend on Obsidian to read/write/edit them. However, the more plugins you become dependent upon, the more your notes rely on the Obsidian application. I completely agree that a zettelkasten is a publishing machine. Thanks for watching!
I still don't get how a Zettlekasten is supposed to be a thinking partner that helps you write essays and books? How do you link new notes to existing notes? If a new note you've written reminds you of an existing one, how are you supposed to find that note unless it's recent? you'd have to go through every card. What if you randomly think of a connection between two existing notes, but both of those notes are buried in a thousand notes? Are you supposed to reread every single note you've written periodically, link spaced repetition/anki cards? PLEASE make a new video SHOWING how the Zettlekasten is a thinking partner that helps you create knowledge and write essays.
Download a done for you Obsidian vault for writers and creators, complete with 150 sample notes, tutorials and a zettelkasten mini-course: flowlabs.co/zettelkasten
"Constraints helps you express one idea as concisely as possible" Good video!
This video spared me probably tens of hours wasted going down the rabbit hole of confusion which abounds on this topic. Knowing what *not* do is often more important than knowing what to do. Thanks, now I have a clear discerning criteria for discarding tutorials at an early stage.
Great video! As someone who has used the analog Zettelkasten method for years and only recently has been transitioning to also using it digitally, I totally agree!
A huuuuuuge part of all productivity trends is the massive amount of procrastination they allow you to pretend you’re not doing.
My system is 1. Physical notebooks and daily note taking. 2. All of those physical notes screen shotted and further annotation to Apple Notes 3. Reinforce key concepts with Calender reminders alerts on a weekly, monthly bases depending on the concept. Wash, Rinse, Repeat. Very useful when learning abstract Hapax Legomenons.
The concept of friction and the way it could relate to discipline really helped recontextualize this whole process, thank you. It reminds me a lot of the bullet journal method. I always did that by hand with a pen and paper, and it always felt effortless; in reality, I was filtering out what didn't matter, and writing only what best served documenting. My current obsidian vault has become a constant daunting thing, because i felt like a maintainer of a productivity system and not a writer. I hope I'll be able to evolve my approach with this new inspiration!
Thank you, I'm so glad this inspired you. I could totally relate. My initial experience with Obsidian was to make it this all in one productivity system. I soon realized without the intent of writing outputs, it quickly becomes an endless information maintenance system and another source of overwhelm. The challenge of digital is constantly fighting the collector's fallacy because its so easy to effortlessly capture information based on some artificial encounter with it. Then we start to think that just by organizing and linking that information, we have advanced our learning. No, that is just making personal wikilinks.
Thank god you made your video. I watched ten videos about Zettelkasten, and I have no clue how your supposed to write notes. You laid it out directly
Same shit.
Thank you Tony. Your comments go straight to the point. I have checked the system about a year ago, but at that time it would be impossible to me apply it. Now that I am returning to it, I am glad I watched your explanation! My sincere gratitude!
Thanks. My interpretation of fleeting, literature, and permanent notes are as follows. Fleeting keeps quick ideas. Literature is writing an idea from my source in my own words. Permanent linked to a literature note uses my ideas or questions. I like your take too.
OMG! Dude thank you so much! It finally makes sense now. I like you scoured the Internet for information to learn about how to do zettelkasten, got confused and gave up. You brought me back to life concerning zettlkasten. It makes so much sense now. Keep the content coming because I subscribed to your channel and got rid of all the other confusing channels!👍
I really like your view of positive friction ! Because you are constraint, have to focus on what you want to write down. And this is certainly one success or Twitter at the very beginning. You have to think of the right words to fit the 160 characters of a tweet. From contraint comes creativity. and because you have to focus, you will remember the content more easily too. Thank you !
This is literally the FIRST video that perfectly captures some of the questions I’ve had about starting Zettlekasten. I wish i could just facetime you while you show me how you use your system in practice. I have so many questions about Zettlekasten and no one to ask face to face.
Thank you for the kind words, my friend! I'm so glad it helped. I will definitely be publishing more content like this so stay tuned.
Holy shit. Finally!!! Divergent thinker!!! Yessssss! I was waiting for this like 85 years.
on updating existing notes, I see many benefits with adding new note that refute existing note. first time I read about zettelkasten being the thinking partner, I have no idea what everyone talked about. then I read an essay titled "niklas luhmann card index" by johannes F.K schmidt where he describe Luhmann's slipbox as an intellectual autobiography. from there everything make sense now
the idea of disagreeing with yourself is really interesting
What??!! How do you get through life without re-thinking things and being of two minds about things?
@@chaosordeal294Blame the public school system
@@chaosordeal294 most of the time the conflict comes from an external source that make us rethink things, but sure the active process of internal debate is not explored that much outside academic structures
I believe that as we learn things we tend to find new truths and paths that previously were unimaginable.
Though sometimes we learned new things but didn't connect the dots on the spot regarding two or more areas of knowledge, that's the moment when you get in conflict with yourself and if you can take time to actually reflect on the matter you could find something new without the immediate exterior interference.
If you stop to think about it though, all we know must start with exterior interference.
Thanks for clearing up my confusion around Permanent notes.
Thanks a lot for clarifying about the permanent note and main note ! You Just reframe one of my issue😁
Many thanks Tony. This was so welcome for me, as I also have been confused by the same explanations of digital Zettelkasten on RUclips. As a fellow 'Hunter' type I can all too easily be drawn into refining (editing) existing notes, each time I revisit them to create a link. I am going to re-watch this video many times over the coming days until I can write it up in 50 words or less :-) Please keep this content coming - its having a genuinely beneficial impact.
Hey friend, I am so glad to hear that. Thank you for the kind words! I definitely plan to keep the content coming, stay tuned.
@@TonyRamella I surely will.
Such an enlightening video thank you so much ! This is exactly what I do but I didn’t know it was a thing ! First, I write my thoughts on paper because they are clearer this way, and then I copy them on Obsidian. I didn’t know how to call this way of taking notes, I just thought I was an indecisive person, until you mentioned the word « hybrid » ! Now everything makes sense ! I don’t have to choose between digital and analogue, I can have a hybrid system :) Many many thanks ! Also, before this video, my notes on paper were not proper cards. They were written on random sheets that I threw away after having copied them on Obsidian. Now I will make real filed small cards :) !
THIS, this video clears up everything for me. Its been very confusing for me about the workflow and types of notes in zettel after watching +- 4 videos
I love it when all the Obsidian gurus call each other gurus.
Hahaha my thoughts exactly. Great video though !
Just like news reporters talking about the media
Inception
Amazing!! You get it!! I am just starting my PhD and trying to find the best way to study and record my knowledge! I have Dyslexia and undiagnosed ADHD 🎉and you have helped me so much thank you!!
I feel that people are also missing that the unique identifiers capture the (or at least some) order of the thought process. I find that important for when you're writing, because it provides a structure in addition to the links that can be followed.
Wow. It’s like you’re speaking for me. I’m very much relating to this video. Thank you for putting it out there.
As someone waiting for the Ahrens book in the mail and watching Obsidian videos, this was the best one yet.
Glad to hear it has helped you my friend! More to come.
Writing by hand is by far the best way to retain knowledge and arrive at conclusions. The good friction you're describing is what helps us think, and there's a lot of that when you're writing on paper - or even on a tablet, but without editing. I've been a very pro-digital writer my entire life, but the more I write this way, the more I realize I'm just typing things out because I like the process, but not the thinking and processing that writing involves; analog is sure slower, but the speed of digital writing sometimes comes with a cost of quality of your writing and your thinking, and at that point, why even write something.
I really wish your words reached the same number as those of the people with fancier thumbnails. Thanks!
Definetly, that is why I alwasy use both. Say I am reading a book, I have a sheet of paper of that book, where I write my nots, in their roughest forms, but just enough that i can go back on them and understand them. I then REread the book, but only on the pages where i wroter notes, comments, etc. on my second rethrough, I put it on obsidian, where I elaborate and tag them
@@martinwilches6583 nice approach with a separate sheet! The fixed layout is a little unforgiving when it comes to notebooks and such, so I'm going to try using a ring system so I can re-attach and rearrange things easily whenever I have to.
Do you just get by with a single sheet or do you end up using multiple ones?
Or... you could slow down, stop, and think when writing digitally. It's not a restrain imposed on you by the form of writing, it's the restrain imposed on you by lack of habits. Analog writing does help you retain better, that is a fact, but mostly due to the fact that many people when taking notes digitally turn off their brain and regurgitate everything they hear. I would expect somebody who understands why analog writing helps them think and write better to be able to replicate that in a digital setting.
@@Gigusx Human beings are not creatures of pure willpower. It's a very enticing and flattering idea to think you have as much control over yourself as you're willing to exert, but the truth is, you're constantly being influenced by a number of factors when making any sort of decisions - writing is no exception.
Think of the marshmallow experiment or the hazard controls pyramid - in both, the most effective strategy is to eliminate the less-than-desired factor. We're not really designed to be doing nothing and we've been trying to avoid having to do nothing (i.e. being bored) for millennia, so it's hardly any surprise that between typing something out on a keyboard and just doing nothing we tend to prefer the former.
Of course, you're right that it's absolutely possible to just think before you type and all, but the obstacles and frictions that the analog writing causes makes you think even more, because writing it out takes more time and energy and your brain just tries to conserve resources as it always does, so end you end up doing more of the activity that, in comparison, to your brain seems a little less costly.
Going by your logic, we shouldn't introduce any speed limits and physical means of making drivers feel less inclined to drive fast in general, because, well, can't they just not drive too fast? In the Netherlands, they've been structuring some roads in a way that makes you swerve left and right or just drive along a seemingly narrow pathway, which only feels safe and controlled at a lower speed that's ultimately safer for everyone (i.e. the driver and the pedestrians).
This is a good practice that takes the willpower away and allows the participants to truly focus on what they're doing - writing or driving, for example.
I'm sure you won't deny that having full control over yourself for an extended period of time is tedious and, honestly, almost impossible for the vast majority of circumstances we find ourselves in. This conscious effort of thinking more than writing/typing, or keeping your speed in check, is not very necessary, because you can externalize the barriers you would otherwise set in your head, in return being able to focus on the outcome rather than the means.
@@jrknsOFF Man, you've extrapolated things into a completely different direction...
I'm not gonna argue with you on the point willpower because it's spot on, but it's also not what I was saying. I said you're lacking habits, not willpower (and not accidently). And I'm assuming we're both clear on the fact that habits, by definition, are the opposite of being dependent on your willpower.
The way you react when you write currently is also a habit you've already formed - there's nothing stopping you from swapping it out for something more useful, the same way you do with analogous habits in any other situation. Becoming aware of how you think, or even thinking in the first place, while writing is also just a habit that can be built. You're also welcome to introduce as much or as little friction as you want during your digital writing process - there's far more room for improvement there than on paper.
The biggest misconception in the PKM bubble about Luhmann and Zettelkasten is that Luhmann did not wrote "atomic notes" or he contrained himself to one Zettel/slip. He mostly wrote longer paragraphs/little essays in longhand often over multiple Zettel.
Exactly, well worth mentioning. Atomic notes are another invention of Ahrens that was never used before. “Atomicty” happens organically, you don’t impose it upon writing a note.
I’m thinking this might need a follow up video because there’s plenty I left out involving misconceptions around “fleeting notes”, something Luhmann also didn’t use.
@@TonyRamellaplease do make a video about fleeting notes. And thanks for this informative video 🎉
@@TonyRamella but didn't you say in the video that you're supposed to impose atomicity by limiting the word count? what's the point of that?
I'm not sure I understand what you mean. My understanding is that the Zettelkasten contains permanent zettels but also "indexes" or "summaries" for more fleshed-out topics, and that these serve as entry-points to the Zettels that underpin them. Is this what you're referring to?
The point of atomicity is that the "atomic note" can be linked (embedded) to multiple other notes. When you have longer paragraphs, it may be part of the note that can be used. And the whole point of the Zettelkasten system is to discover hidden connections that were not obvious.
Oh my god, thanks man. I was trying to approach zettelkasten a few years and I was having the same issues with every video or article about that system. Finally I've got a clear understanding of the actual result and process
This video brought more clarity on these misconceptions than any other video on the Zettelkasten out there. Thank you for sharing it and helping.
Dude, this is the most interesting piece of content I've come accross about ZK and Obsidian. Thank you so much for that !
I am much more confused when my obsidian contains a lot of notes with very short text. I noticed that I enjoy much more to write longer notes with more information. These notes end up to be very valuable to me, whereas the very short notes and are mostly disappearing between all the other short notes. So to conclude, Just do whatever fits your personal style and your brain and don't listen that much to RUclips videos how it should be...
Awesome awesome video, very interesting, thank you for spending the time to share your research and knowledge !
5:20 is gold! AND it flies in the face of the Instagrammized influencer society.
Knowing that the friction serves a purpose AND that the innate messiness of the process serves a purpose is liberating.
Most material describing Zettlekasten is over produced and edited to focus on result, not process. Particularly the habit of overwriting and editing in place.
I would love to see livestreams of people like @morganeua working on their notes, for example
This guy gets it.
Great, concise video. Thanks for this.
This was the most lucid approach that I've seen.
I'm really thankful and less anxious!!
I've a doubt now. I'm migrating my notion to Obisidian and I really don't figure how my saved articles and web resources (that I'm treating as "Sources") will be linked/tagged to the rest or my knowledge base (seems to me that they're "source notes") -or should I leave then to avoid "wikipediate my system"?
If someone on comments has any idea or approach, feel free to answer too.
This video offers the most insightful and deep explanation of the ZK method I've encountered. It truly illuminates the core concepts.Thank you Tony!
Totally correct, on all points.
Also was laughing when I saw one of my analog zettelkasten videos from my other account in your screen scroll. 😄
@@DrunkonTech nice! Theres a good chance I learned from your video then. Theres not enough analog zettelkasten content so keep it coming!
@@TonyRamella I’ve retired that channel so it’s up to you brother! There’s def needs someone who isn’t an absolute purist. Your hybrid approach is valuable. I’ve said Schepper was wrong about digital Zettlekasten not being possible. Outlines are the secret. But I’m curious about your thoughts on this: what happens when the Zettlekastenis do deep that the screen isn’t wide enough to display the indented tabs? It’s been my one unsolvable issue. It only takes about eight loves to reduce the line visibility to 1-3 words.
Thanks for this. It really clarifies some of what's really going on in a ZK. What some people don't get about one idea per card/note is that multiple ideas will break the linking logic of the whole system. If a note has 2 ideas, then some notes linking to it will be linked to thought 1, some to thought 2. This dilutes the clarity of how/why two notes are linked, and the other notes linked to those. Add a third or fourth thought on a note and it gets exponentially worse.
Man, this is so helpful! Thank you very much!
Very informative. Thank you for taking the time to make this video.
I can agree. I got discouraged by those videos. My Obsidian Zettelkasten was overloaded, too complicated and the system did not fit me very well. Then I wachted a video that presented a differened idea. Just make notes and connect them via that wonderful obsidean tool + some index notes. I really can encourgae you to start very simple and add tools as you go along. I quickly noticed what I need and added those few tools.
My current system is a speration into litarutre notes and simple notes. So in literature notes I write down book title, author etc. but also the notes from the book which are generally quiet long. In my main notes I trya to extract key ideas from texts i found interesting and I also add own thoughts.
I ignored the "dont build your own wiki" advice you talked about. And I think thats why I did not really used my main notes as much. I often edited and changed things and at the end I spend more time "fixing" my old cards than doing what I really wanted to do in the first place. I think making them permanent indeed and to contrain them to 80-100 words is a great idea. I am going to implment that right away.
I would try out my own analog Zettelkasten but buying everything for that seems to be too expensive at the moment.
Nice video, greetings from Germany.
@@thetom449 an analog box only costs as much as a pack of index cards to start, so about $4 max. If you order them on Amazon it will likely ship in a box you can use as the zettelkasten. I would encourage you to at least use note cards for writing source notes, it’s incredibly effective and helps you become a better reader.
As far as avoiding building a wiki, a good rule of thumb is don’t write notes on things you can easily find with a Google search.
I started with dollarstore index cards. $1
I now use 4x6 cards in a photo box. I just prefer the size, and I like my pretty cardboard box. This cost less then $10.
On my initial introduction to Obsidian I came across zettle and realised that it doesn't work with my thought process
I have a hard time with constraining a note to 80-100 words. Many of the notes that I have related to my day job are technical in nature, and I'll keep enough information there to either produce process guides, or other long-form content. That's a me problem that I need to work out. That being said, I'm really glad I found this video, it's cleared up a few things for me. I had pretty much given up on Zetteling because it all just felt so subjective and wishy-washy. Thanks for taking the time to walk through it concisely.
I found it useful to separate permanent notes from reference notes. A simple rule of thumb for me is that permanent notes have to be in my own words. Reference notes can be copy and paste. Since their value is usually providing step-by-step instructions, there's no need to paraphrase.
This was a fantastic explanation! Thank you!
Analog Zettelkasten definitely helps, obsidian doesn't click with me neither, but once I tried adopting physical notes, the whole process become clear, although it takes more time. From choosing cetain types of note cards to customized slip box. And what the most valueable thing to me is that I can play with these cards and arrange these cards in the orders that I want to.
Thank you a lot. The best description of the system. Sweeping out all the complexity that was never the part of the system I believe. Thank you one more time!
So glad to hear it has helped clear things up for you! Thanks for watching!
You explain this with more clarity than ChatGPT thanks a million!❤
Thank you! I would hope so, you can’t be helping people develop knowledge by using a bot!
This raised some fascinating points. I have been trying to wrap my arms around Obsidian and Zettelkasten for several weeks and you have definitely inspired me to rethink my approach. I wonder though if others would disagree with some of your takes. Would love to see you debate or discuss these points against someone with differing views.
I would love to. I don't think it can be argued that my approach is not true to zettelkasten, but it can certainly be debated if certain aspects are necessary in a digital version. Ultimately this is what has worked for me and my students, but I believe theres also enough freedom to be creative in your implementation of it without losing core aspects of what makes a zettelkasten valuable.
@@TonyRamella Totally. Everything you said resonated with me a lot. I think it's easy to fall into the trap of collecting information instead of crafting a tool to use to think.
Now it clicks. Thank you!
I think I’m going to use Apple Notes and tags, since I got lost trying to configure Obsidian
A part of the difficulty of giving an answer to, ‘What makes a note permanent?’, is that each person has a different set of criteria to determine whether they have enough knowledge to create a note which meets the desiderata of the ‘permanent note’, e.g., atomicity. If one is satisfied with rather a poorly articulated idea because one feels that it really expresses the extent of their understanding (or anyone’s), there is nothing to say that their calling it permanent isn’t warranted.
I think for most people what this means is running up against the idea that their system (and in a deeper sense, their knowledge itself) won’t tell them whether their knowledge system-something external, something ’objective’, lol-can produce notes worthy of the label of permanency. In my own case, the vast majority of my notes are ‘process notes’. They’re discursive, messy, unfinished, contradictory, BUT, the system I use labels, to a specific extent, the relationship that these kind of notes-these process notes-have to one another. In this way, thinking is documented, enriched, built upon. ‘Permanent notes’ are just those that I have decided can ‘act as’ defeasible claims, and they are really very rarely made. Why? Because a lot of thinking, a lot of writing has to take place first. What makes them especially different is how I use them to think. No doubt their format, atomicity, brevity, etc, helps, but what makes them ‘permanent’ is the fact that they take on a different meaning in their use-they ‘act as’ assertions that I use to build upon, to attempt thinking further. They become temporary presuppositions (or carry them, inherently).
So, no, I don’t think it’s just a matter of ‘if it’s linked it’s permanent’, because then there’s no metric of measuring the value of the information between any given note. Certainly one note is going to be more permanent-more important-than another, and if this is the case, they need to be more accessible, e.g., by being labelled as such. As the number of notes which pertain to a particular area grow, differentiation between the kinds of notes (which represent kinds of thinking process) become more and more necessary. This determining of note labelling then becomes an act of interpreting the types of thought one engages in; there is no single formula, but no doubt there are certain features which, having been identified, do not hinder the process of knowledge development using those notes.
My belief is that Luhman was exceptionally good at knowing when he knew something in enough detail that it was worth writing a zettel on (probably because he’d written a f*** ton in discursive note style first on the topic), and also of course at writing an exceptionally condensed representation of the idea. My feeling is then that, actually, very few people do enough work to warrant writing even a single Zettel.
Sure, friction is certainly an important idea, but I’m not sold on outsourcing this to constraints outside of my own will. Otherwise, I might end up believing too much in dependence on technology, ironically. Maybe physical notes are a good start, but then, maybe thinking about only one idea for a week is even better? Normative forces are real baby - we live in a world of information management coping mechanism development.
very good video Tony!
this.... this changesss everythingggg :))) thank you i was about to go insane from watching videos of atomic notes and literature notes and stuff but thisssss this all makes sense now yayy
I subbed because nobody discusses this at all. Thanks x
Wow there's a LOT of great insights here, many things are finally clarified!
How can I give multiple likes or a BIG heart to this video? 😊 Excellent in-depth analysis! Thank you for the clarification!
Appreciate your video! It's been a great help on my journey. I'm diving into Zettelkasten to improve my note-taking, which can be messy at times. In fact, I'm thinking of using Zettelkasten to document this whole learning experience! With that in mind, I have a couple of questions.
Based on this video, I created a "source note." I've also made similar notes while watching videos from Gurus :). (I thought I was making "literature notes" before). Now I have a strong urge to edit some of those notes, I'm guessing once I refine them, they can become "permanent notes". But, like any other learning experience, the next time I revisit this same video say after a couple of months, I'll likely have more to add because my understanding would have grown. So, my questions are:
1) Even if a previous "source note" is quite short, should I create a new one entirely if I have new insights to add?
2) Let's say I also made a "main note" after I thought I understood the topic. - Why shouldn't I add more to this note if I have something that enhances the content and is very relevant to the topic?
PS: I ask this to explore a wider range of opinions, even though I know I will ultimately create my own Zettelkasten workflow that suits my preferences. As a software engineer myself, I strongly believe that keeping things digital gives us an advantage in terms of keeping our notes evolving.
Thanks for the video. When trying to apply zettelkasten in obsidian i noticed each creator did it differently. Which does indeed cause red flags
No editing after is filed! Indeed.
In the end, if you get the idea down and it is linked sensibly, then you are on the right track. The notes didn't have to be perfect, just finally findable.
Thank you for the clarification with this. I have a mostly analogue brain and trying to learn this digitally has been a nightmare.
I'll be buying some notecards and a box.
I hope it brings you the instant clarity that it did for me. Let me know how it goes!
Great video. Thank you. Do you agree with 'fleeting notes'?
I've been looking into this method recently and the different buzzwords I hear on RUclips do not provide clarity. This video seems different, I'll check out more!
Beau has a really good workflow of this in roam research
Tony, this is such a good video! thanks for sharing!
Excellent content... Thank you so much for your efforts...
Best explanation, thanks
Great, this clears up a lot, thanks.
Could you go into how analog notes are filed, ID'd, and indexed?
yes true, i dont not use obsidian for task or project management, it is solely for notes. if i want to do task management i use todoist, project managament id use notion or trello or something.
great explanation my dude.
Very good video, very helpful!
Very truth. Obsidian is a useful tool, but the media overhyped it so much
Great video Thank you so much!!
I realized everything you said 3 years ago and as a writer I only got out of the infinite loop of knowledge hoarding of my own thoughts when I decided I have to have the purpose of writing to publish and not writing to learn. Learning happens along the way but if it’s my main goal then I will never publish a thing.
"Knowledge hoarding of my own thoughts"
This part really caught my eye. Could you elaborate, please? Do you mean writing down thoughts that have no long-term value?
@@Alex5000148 sure I can explain for me but of course it’s subjective for everyone.
I love to write a lot and realize that writing helps develop your speaking voice and builds confidence so I don’t think any form of writing is a waste but I do think if we aren’t intentional about our writing and not prioritize WHY we are writing then we can end up in a self imposed prison of collection and learning knowledge but doing nothing with it. Similar to how people watch/read productivity or self help content everyday and they learn a lot but they do nothing with it….they are hoarding information mentally and some hoard and put it that information away in a note taking app but to actually DO something with that information many don’t because the dopamine hit of collecting was what they were after.
We see this with people who obsessively buy clothes, cars, and are material things…they collect and collect or rather hoard those things but once they have them they don’t do anything with them or take care to nurture and fully develop them. Like with writing I have seen people in this niche (I used to be one) hoard and hoard away through excitement, all the free knowledge on the internet and obsidian, logseq, or whatever notes app is there home where they’ve done nothing with what they collected. Systems don’t help to organize your collection of knowledge when you don’t prioritize WHY you are collecting in the first place.
I saw myself doing this with my own thoughts and studies and insights and would write more and more daily because I was excited to learn and study the world around me but I got caught up and forgot to just hit publish to DO something with those writings and now I don’t do that anymore.
Mix that with being a experfectionist and in didn’t want to hit publish because I always needed to tweak and add something to my writings (since I was always building on it) so my writings were never “finished” according to me….which led to more hoarding and not sharing of my knowledge.
So I stopped trying to make a vanity glorified notes graph and notes vault and just share what I got and add onto what is published and I feel better 😂.
Publish what exactly?
A new PKM guru.
Hardly. I am not very good at managing knowledge which is why I prefer to use a zettelkasten to develop ideas for creative outputs.
I'm working with Notion, and feel the same about youtube "gurus". Thanks
Thanks, this was helpful.
I think zettelcasten was needed when the only option was to write notes on paper. Relationships should help with finding needed notes. But now we have ability to do text search in almost every application
Unless you have a proper tagging and/or cataloguing system, you're losing it after some time anyway. It becomes a pile of files, notes, paragraphs or whatever else. Digital is just faster to write, edit, share, and delete, but it doesn't necessarily mean it's better to write to think in digital.
Thank you.
Good. And what you said up to about 4:00 is that you need to be aware of collector's fallacy, isn't it? Many good zettel-gurus say that, no big deal 😅
And the next idea is a great reminder, this is the essential point, ZK as a partnership, thank you, you have my sub!
hi why do you have a crooked outdoor porch light on your wall
I thought that the notes on the index card were fleeting notes, without so much data. You notes seem like a confluence of data, when it’s supposed to be a quick concept. Of course you can adapt the system to your needs.
I didn't get what's the meaning of the term "friction" in the context of annotating. Maybe it's a translation matter. Could someone help please?
I was the 1k like video!!
Isn't the idea of one idea per note to make it more atomic so that the chance of interacting with other concepts increases?
Yes, this is more of a rule of thumb to help guide the purpose of condensing that idea to a note so it doesn't become more of an essay.
It is not a necessary rule you should place on yourself when writing main notes because it can sometimes add too much friction and prevent you from just writing. In my experience, atomicty happens organically.
In short, you did the right thing:
I found that Luhmann's information management system is not more complicated, but it is more effective than the influencers talking about taking notes on Obsidian. Because he took notes by hand:
- Studies show that taking notes by hand has a positive impact on many different brain areas.
- Writing by hand is slower than typing:
1) The slowness of handwriting helps Luhmann consider and select important words to write in literature notes. -> he will remember better
2) the brain is relaxed -> the brain is more creative: when writing literature notes -> he will come up with more ideas so he can write permanent notes.
To put it more simply. Luhmann takes notes to find as many ideas as possible to write in permanent notes, then these permanent notes will become a complete essay after Luhmann connects them together. And writing citations, summaries of content and citing sources in literature are just proof that his ideas are correct (ironically, people who make content about obsidian (also Tiago Forte) just encourage copy-paste).
Thus, copying highlights from Kindle to Obsidian becomes useless if you don't understand anything about highlights and don't get any ideas from them. I don't claim that typing makes us stupid, because people who write on computers have a habit of carefully correcting spelling and arguments, which helps them think more deeply = more smart.
Thanks
It have sense, but i don't agree to have inaccurate information for example if law change i change how it relying to other laws.
Heyo! I got the notecards, I got a box, I've got things to read and extract from.
And I realized I'm not sure how to make the indexing code system that goes on the card. Is this in one of your videos and I'm not finding it? Or is it super obvious and I'm just being a dunce?
Look up Folgezettel. Scott Scheper's channel is a good resource for analog ZK although I find his top down categorization approach to the numeric alpha cataloging adds too much friction for my liking. You could start real simple and just give your first note number 1. From there you go 1a, 1a1, 1a2, 2b, 2b1, 2b2a, 2b2a1, etc.
Luhmann himself wrote: It is not important where you store a Zettel as long as you can reference it from every other point to the Zettelkasten, so don't overthink the numbering, just index keywords/concepts and reference the catalog number.
But a tomato is a fruit
At this point, i really just wanna see an actual example of the method in use on real content. Im 25% through the book, and the only examples are abstract. Author and everyone keeps saying "It is actually a very simple method", yet why am i using so much time trying to learn it then?? Cornell notes took no time to learn at all...
Why is it bad to have a personal wikipedia?
It's not, it's just that Zettelkasten isn't for that at all. Zettelkasten is Zettel-first, or note-first, meaning that you collect these ideas, talk to them, store in a way that makes it easy for you to access later, all for the purpose of comprising all of that thinking into a final product, like a book or an essay or some sort of conclusion for yourself.
In a way, Zettelkasten, as a method we largely understand today, is just the means. You can use that means, for example, to build a proper wiki for yourself, but no wiki is a Zettelkasten - because Zettelkasten is for somewhat raw bits of your thoughts that you may turn into something bigger and more defined later, maybe even out of dozens, hundreds of individual notes.
I have watched several videos on Zettelkasten and they all basically said the same thing. Obsidian can be used however you want, so people Zettelkast a little bit differently. I use Obsidian daily and here's how I Zettelkast: I don't, ever, not into it. It would be a waste of time for my purposes, and I already have a method that is very useful.
Example. You have a 10000 notes Zettelkasten. And you decide to let me use it. I have ONE idea and ONE note to put it in to your Zettelkasten. I have no idea what your Zettelkasten is about and which notes it contains. I do not know any relations existing between notes. I have no idea about the context surrounding each of your notes. Just BLANK MIND. How do i put my note in your Zettelkasten so it will be mindfully connected to as much of your existing notes as it can be?
Please describe a step by step process of my interaction with yours Zettelkasten.
I'm not sure why this situation would ever occur but I'll entertain it. You would have to browse through the index of my zk and find the key words/concepts that relate most to your note, then you can link it from there.
@@TonyRamella so the index cards are like maps of content or like the title of a book? And after i put my note i need to put the information about it in to the index? Is that correct?
@@emotionalmindedstateyes so you can refer back to it when looking for it later or when you need to connect to it in the future
INTJ much? ;-) Thanks for this great video.
What Obsidian gurus get wrong about Zettelkasten is... pronunciation. It's German word, so "tsetlkastn". ;)
But putting jokes aside, nice video.
Yes, I apologize to all my German friends. In America, if you pronounce a foreign word the correct way, you sound pretentious. If you pronounce it the wrong way, you sound like an idiot to its native speakers. Either way, you can't win :)
Thanks for watching. Wait until you hear my pronunciation of "folgezettel" (I apologize in advance)
@@TonyRamella "you sound pretentious" wait, what? Really? You truly shocked me, it's new for me.
For me, and probably many of Europeans, it is respect. Also, I check foreign word prononciation just because I am curious how it sounds (German is not my mother tongue).
Jordan Peterson says you have to put things in your own words . If you copy/paste, you miss the point.
Peterson is an idiot, but he's right on this point that he picked up in notetaking 101.
Agree, same as small peterson that talk fast. Both of them sound smart but then they talk about something you know you see how much of idiots they are. -
P.s. ask gpt-4 who is it, it answer that small Peterson in Ben Shapiro @@t0dd000
@@t0dd000 lol
@@t0dd000lol i know thats basic cognitive science 101. Dude is really just sticking his name on other peoples research now
@@plaidchuckso you cant say wise stuff anymore? Who says peterson claims to be the inventor of this thought? He probably just wants to help others and therfore gave them that knowledge
Notion / Obsidian / Logseq / etc. all suck because youre stuck in their ecosystem ... the most important piece is that you take the information and *do something with it* and thats the messy bit doing any of these dZettle ... unless it becomes easy to create a workflow that allows for referencing, outputting in different formats, and finally *publishing the information*
I will add that with Obsidian/Logseq you are not quite stuck in their ecosystem like you are with Notion. Obsidian is just a plaintext editor. You own the markdown files and do not depend on Obsidian to read/write/edit them. However, the more plugins you become dependent upon, the more your notes rely on the Obsidian application. I completely agree that a zettelkasten is a publishing machine. Thanks for watching!
Obsidian (and my favorite, Joplin) are really flexible in how you organize and link things. Cuz, the notes and hierarchies are rather simple.
I still don't get how a Zettlekasten is supposed to be a thinking partner that helps you write essays and books? How do you link new notes to existing notes? If a new note you've written reminds you of an existing one, how are you supposed to find that note unless it's recent? you'd have to go through every card. What if you randomly think of a connection between two existing notes, but both of those notes are buried in a thousand notes? Are you supposed to reread every single note you've written periodically, link spaced repetition/anki cards? PLEASE make a new video SHOWING how the Zettlekasten is a thinking partner that helps you create knowledge and write essays.