Regarding murder hobos who killed for xp, I'm reminded of something I first heard from Derik on Knights of Last Call. "That which gets rewarded gets repeated." If you give the majority of XP for killing things, your players are going to kill things. That's something I love about games like Dungeon World and Scum and Villainy. You earn exp by doing things that are fitting to the game. "If you are a smuggler, did you smuggle something? Mark experience." "If you are a rebel, did you strike a blow against the empire? Mark experience." "If you are a paladin, did you protect the defenseless? Mark experience."
Yeah, kinda like fallout when the charisma guy makes a good persuasion/intimidation/deception check. Give him some exp reward interacting with the world, not just fighting or killing things
In the olden days, we got most of our XP from treasure (1 GP = 1 XP). It encouraged us to go out, explore strange places, and take everything that wasn't nailed down. Except there were strict rules on encumbrance, which meant we had to leave a lot behind (or find creative ways to carry it). Also, we found ways of avoiding dangerous combat and still getting that loot. We were more Cat Burglar Hobos. It was a very different game, that's for sure.
On murder hobos: exp being the cause of murder hobos is a revision of history, in my experiance. The rules for BECMI, od&d, and 1e ad&d gave you very little exp for fighting; go got more from treasure and money recovered. We had murder hobos back then, but that is not why they murder hobo. Murder hobos do it because they like the combat system and want to solve everything with reliable tools they have access to. You did not know if the prisoner you rescued in the dungeon would betray you; safer to kill them as they might be an assasin in disguise. Early games did not have social skills or insight like mechanics; you had to make a choice based on how the gm is playing them and they can lie to you very effectively. That is why you had exp penalties for acting against their alignment; no your paladin cannot kill the prisoners just in case without dropping two levels. You get the same things in modern games where the barbarian wants to negotiate for a lower price on his ax, but his persuasion is low and charisma is negative. Easier to kill the merchant as commoners have, what, 5 hp?
That is a good point, we do have a player that borders on this kind of gameplay but he doesn’t kill everything because he knows the other players don’t like it and in exchange he will get a combat about every other session
I had a 'main character' player that amongst other stuff, once asked the rest of the players "is it okay if i do most of the talking" with an NPC faction, just because they thought they were better at IRL negotiation. 😅 They soon after angrily left the campaign when their character got knocked out after running head on into a fight with the BBEG. The campaign has since been much more fun with more shy players getting more chances in the spotlight. 🥰
Unfortunately they were replaced by a rules lawyer (constantly argued against homebrew rulings assuming they were adversarial, when they were usually beneficial to the party, like me asking the rogue for acrobatics instead of athletics to climb so they could get more use out of the skill) and casual player (missing tons of sessions and sleeping through a lot of them) that also sent creepy messages to a female player, but fortunately they are gone now and the group is now only comprised of cooperative and chill players that love to have fun together.🥰
Murder hobo kills Cindy Lou Who's family, her and the family dog. About a month later the hobo finds he is being stalked by ...something. It turns out to be a small terrier dog. He has issues killing the dog. A week later, the dog is back. The dog is a Revenant. So he spends a year being hunted by the dog who is haunting him for killing little Cindy Lou Who. Meanwhile she has become a ghost who has the unfinished business of trying to find her lost dog... Should keep the adventurers busy. If the Hobo does not get the point the Revenant and or the ghost could defeat the Hobo. Have the Ghost be a nice polite young lady who may appear to the other players if the Hobo is elsewhere and she asks for their help to find her missing dog.
Sometimes this is true, but when that player is still like that out of combat or during party deliberations then that’s when the problem player is a concern
There are some who seem to be "just there" that are actually just neurodivergent. I have times where I actually pay attention better if I am doing something else at the same time. In those instances, I am still paying attention in full, but need to be doing something to not have my mind wander off. Additionally, when I do it, I try top limit whatever other activity to looking at rules or other game-related things when possible.
Regarding murder hobos who killed for xp, I'm reminded of something I first heard from Derik on Knights of Last Call. "That which gets rewarded gets repeated." If you give the majority of XP for killing things, your players are going to kill things.
That's something I love about games like Dungeon World and Scum and Villainy. You earn exp by doing things that are fitting to the game. "If you are a smuggler, did you smuggle something? Mark experience." "If you are a rebel, did you strike a blow against the empire? Mark experience." "If you are a paladin, did you protect the defenseless? Mark experience."
Yes, that’s the exact reason why I (back when I did XP leveling) rewarded players for Role Playing as well as combat
Yeah, kinda like fallout when the charisma guy makes a good persuasion/intimidation/deception check. Give him some exp reward interacting with the world, not just fighting or killing things
@@alexskocy9948 I have definitely given out XP for this exact reason
In the olden days, we got most of our XP from treasure (1 GP = 1 XP). It encouraged us to go out, explore strange places, and take everything that wasn't nailed down. Except there were strict rules on encumbrance, which meant we had to leave a lot behind (or find creative ways to carry it). Also, we found ways of avoiding dangerous combat and still getting that loot. We were more Cat Burglar Hobos. It was a very different game, that's for sure.
On murder hobos: exp being the cause of murder hobos is a revision of history, in my experiance. The rules for BECMI, od&d, and 1e ad&d gave you very little exp for fighting; go got more from treasure and money recovered. We had murder hobos back then, but that is not why they murder hobo.
Murder hobos do it because they like the combat system and want to solve everything with reliable tools they have access to. You did not know if the prisoner you rescued in the dungeon would betray you; safer to kill them as they might be an assasin in disguise. Early games did not have social skills or insight like mechanics; you had to make a choice based on how the gm is playing them and they can lie to you very effectively. That is why you had exp penalties for acting against their alignment; no your paladin cannot kill the prisoners just in case without dropping two levels.
You get the same things in modern games where the barbarian wants to negotiate for a lower price on his ax, but his persuasion is low and charisma is negative. Easier to kill the merchant as commoners have, what, 5 hp?
That is a good point, we do have a player that borders on this kind of gameplay but he doesn’t kill everything because he knows the other players don’t like it and in exchange he will get a combat about every other session
@@WhatisTableTop generally, it gets brought up disproportionately. I think it just a spot light hog who made a combat build.
@@WhatisTableTopcauses and karma are great for this, maybe the commoner gets out a prayer/curse
I had a 'main character' player that amongst other stuff, once asked the rest of the players "is it okay if i do most of the talking" with an NPC faction, just because they thought they were better at IRL negotiation. 😅
They soon after angrily left the campaign when their character got knocked out after running head on into a fight with the BBEG.
The campaign has since been much more fun with more shy players getting more chances in the spotlight. 🥰
Unfortunately they were replaced by a rules lawyer (constantly argued against homebrew rulings assuming they were adversarial, when they were usually beneficial to the party, like me asking the rogue for acrobatics instead of athletics to climb so they could get more use out of the skill) and casual player (missing tons of sessions and sleeping through a lot of them) that also sent creepy messages to a female player, but fortunately they are gone now and the group is now only comprised of cooperative and chill players that love to have fun together.🥰
I am in a group of 5 with 2 main characters and I get talked over, so I get pissed and have become a just there player. It sucks.
@@Brandon-zw3hw that’s no fun! Have you talked to the GM? - Charles
@@WhatisTableTop Yup, couple of times. Tries a couple things but generally nothing changes. It's online, I hate VTTing
Murder hobo kills Cindy Lou Who's family, her and the family dog. About a month later the hobo finds he is being stalked by ...something. It turns out to be a small terrier dog. He has issues killing the dog. A week later, the dog is back. The dog is a Revenant. So he spends a year being hunted by the dog who is haunting him for killing little Cindy Lou Who. Meanwhile she has become a ghost who has the unfinished business of trying to find her lost dog... Should keep the adventurers busy. If the Hobo does not get the point the Revenant and or the ghost could defeat the Hobo. Have the Ghost be a nice polite young lady who may appear to the other players if the Hobo is elsewhere and she asks for their help to find her missing dog.
IMO a lot of the time the "just there" player is just a symptom of a problem with turn rotation taking too long
Sometimes this is true, but when that player is still like that out of combat or during party deliberations then that’s when the problem player is a concern
There are some who seem to be "just there" that are actually just neurodivergent. I have times where I actually pay attention better if I am doing something else at the same time. In those instances, I am still paying attention in full, but need to be doing something to not have my mind wander off. Additionally, when I do it, I try top limit whatever other activity to looking at rules or other game-related things when possible.
Is there a reason you were only coming from my left ear at the beginning?
Yeah, there was an issue when editing and I just didn’t catch it in time. Luckily it’s only for the first minute or so of the video
the take that anakin was pro-kids is the only insane thing you said in all of this lmao rest was fun tho
Listen, he was pro having kids, only when I was editing did I realize Charles was talking about THAT scene - Frank
@@WhatisTableTop hahaha i get it, it was just a really funny moment 🤭
@@SweetDragoncandy I thought so. - Charles