One veeeeeery small pet peeve I have with skills as they're usually implemented is that if all they do is give you a numerical bonus, then you end up in a situation where what a DC or Target Number means depends on what you're rolling For example, in D&D, if you ask someone to make a Strength check, they'll probably add +3 to +5 to it. So a DC of 13 would be interpreted as "medium difficulty", 15 would be "hard", 18 would be "very hard". But if you ask that same player to make an Athletics check, they'll probably add anywhere from +6 to +10 to it instead. So now a DC of 15 is medium, 18 is hard, 22 is very hard. And in a lot of cases, when I ask for a Strength check specifically, it's not because the player lacks proficiency in the skill that would work in that situation - it's because there just isn't a skill, in the list, that matches what the character is trying to do. So you end up in a situation where you have basically just two options as the GM: 1) You keep using the same numbers for raw attribute rolls and for skill checks... but this punishes your players whenever they try to do something cool or unique that falls a bit outside of the skills they had the option to pick at character creation 2) You pretty much never call for raw attribute checks, and everything becomes a skill check using whatever feels closest to what the player was trying to do. But then, if every "strength check" uses your Athletics bonus, if "athletics roll" becomes a synonym for "strength roll", then the choice of picking or not picking athletics proficiency becomes a false choice, which doesn't inform anything about who your character is. This is such a nitpicky nitpick, but I've wasted way too much time thinking about this not to share it xD
Have you thought about just coming up with a reason for your players to receive a statistical bonus which falls in line with the checks which are coming up in the future content? I remember one time my only player was about to wander into a desert filled with powerful monsters. So, I had a npc character walk up to them offering an upgrade to their weapon. Sometimes you write the difficulty then realize your player is not at the statistics you thought they were. Or, the player is not comfortable with only being able to fight two enemies then have to heal.
Where the skill system is largely an afterthought like in dnd, the varying breadth of skills can be used as a balancing dial. 5e for example having a single strength associated skill does help make strength focussed characters more versatile since they only need to invest one skill proficiency compared to for example charisma which needs 4 or 5 to be good at all things charisma. Limiting the diversity of available (not even viable, but available) characters is a major disadvantage though. Imo, if you have an attribute->skill association, each attribute should have at least 2 skills associated with it, but that's part of my broader desire to see two independent ways of mechanically expressing that a character is good at something.
A while back I read on the Kobold Press blog, they'd made their version of a group check (DnD 5e). The group must succeed on a check on all 6 skills. Str, Dex, Con, Wis, Int, Cha at least once. It is up to every single player to "choose" how they will help the task too succeed. E.g. the bard can do a charisma check by playing a tune, telling a joke etc. The wizard can do a wisdom check by conjuring a mage hand to help hold the rope the barbarian makes a stregth check to hold the heavy bridge in place and so on, you get the idea. So every player can theoretically make 6 checks., one new check on another skill if they fail the first one. I think the example they used was a partially broken rickety rope bridge across a canyon. This was to avoid only the "rope-use guy" doing the check every time.
That’s interesting. It definitely encourages the party to fit into different roles and strengths in order to have every skill covered while still giving them the freedom to be creative with how they make each check. I might have to use that in the future - Frank
My favourite is the "roll and keep" system from 4th edition Legend of the Five Rings. The game uses D10s, and when asked for a roll you combine a skill + stat (set by the GM) to get the number of dice you roll. Then you keep a number of dice equal to the stat. For example, tracking a creature might call for a [Hunting/Perception] roll, where Hunting is the skill. If your Hunting is 3 and your Perception is 2, you roll 5 D10s. Then you keep 2 of those dice, because if your Perception being 2. But dice can also "explode" on a 10, meaning you roll that dice again and add it to the initial roll, so even if you can only keep two dice, you still have a chance to roll higher than 20. In this system the number of dice you roll raises the statistical average of your rolls, while the number of dice kept bolsters how high your rolls can conceivably go. You are also allowed to voluntarily call a number of "raises" to achieve an additional effect (or the GM will tell you how many you will need when you ask for extra effects). Some of these effects (especially combat ones) are fixed but most of it is free to determine between the players/DM. And on top of all of that you get a limited number of Void Points that can be used to buff up rolls. You end up with a system that rewards risk taking that properly reflects the investment of a character in their power
@@WhatisTableTop The most recent edition of Legend of the Five Rings uses a much different system to the older versions, which is also worth looking at as it promotes roleplaying.
One of my favorite skill systems is Burning Wheel. Everything is a skill, from Swords to Etiquette to Conspicuous. You have a rating in each skill and roll that many d6s, anything that is 4+ is a success. Plus you can use Fields of Related Knowledges (FoRKs) that if you have related skills, they add an additional dice. So if I'm sneaking, I'd have my Stealth skill, and if I have ranks in Inconspicuous, I'd add another d6. So having related skills makes you better which isn't something I've seen in many games.
So Savage Worlds take. (You expected nothing less) 1. Skills: Savage Worlds has a set list of skills that changes slightly depending on the setting. Usually each setting will tell you which skills are removed or added depending on what you are playing. Eletronics is a default skill, but obviously fantasy games do not need it. Some settings add new things that need new skills, so they add those. On top of this, the core rules actually encourages you to make up your own skills for your character with GM approval. The idea for the approval is to make sure they know if it is too vague or too niche and may never come up. That being said, I don't think I have ever seen someone make a new skill, so it does not happen often, but is allowed and encouraged by the rules. 2. Group Rolls: There are couple situations here. When it comes to Stealth, I was not able to find anything for Player Character Group rolls. An idea I have seen though is that if someone gets a raise, it can cover someone's failure, and I like that if the Stealth roll is not opposed. When it comes to things like picking a lock for example, the way the game handles that is that others can roll Support rolls. If someone wants to help the rogue, they can choose a skill that makes sense, roll, and they can give up to a +2 bonus to the rogue's roll. Cumulatively, all players can give up to a +4. This makes it so that everyone that wants to be involved can be, and if someone fails, it is understood that no one else can really try because they all "tried." 3. Skill Chains - This sounds similar to Dramatic Tasks in Savage Worlds. They are usually multi-round skill checks, but can have complications and usually some big downside. I usually use them for rituals, or for stopping rituals. Or one time, to defuse a bomb.
Oh yeah, definitely forgot to mention the systems that will change skills depending on the setting, good catch! I’m personally of two minds of it. I like that they are willing to change skills to show what the setting thinks is important but as a person who plays a ton of different RPGs I always forget exactly which skill is in which system - Frank
What Skill System do you enjoy most? How do you run Group Checks? Let’s us know in the comments!
One veeeeeery small pet peeve I have with skills as they're usually implemented is that if all they do is give you a numerical bonus, then you end up in a situation where what a DC or Target Number means depends on what you're rolling
For example, in D&D, if you ask someone to make a Strength check, they'll probably add +3 to +5 to it. So a DC of 13 would be interpreted as "medium difficulty", 15 would be "hard", 18 would be "very hard".
But if you ask that same player to make an Athletics check, they'll probably add anywhere from +6 to +10 to it instead. So now a DC of 15 is medium, 18 is hard, 22 is very hard.
And in a lot of cases, when I ask for a Strength check specifically, it's not because the player lacks proficiency in the skill that would work in that situation - it's because there just isn't a skill, in the list, that matches what the character is trying to do.
So you end up in a situation where you have basically just two options as the GM:
1) You keep using the same numbers for raw attribute rolls and for skill checks... but this punishes your players whenever they try to do something cool or unique that falls a bit outside of the skills they had the option to pick at character creation
2) You pretty much never call for raw attribute checks, and everything becomes a skill check using whatever feels closest to what the player was trying to do. But then, if every "strength check" uses your Athletics bonus, if "athletics roll" becomes a synonym for "strength roll", then the choice of picking or not picking athletics proficiency becomes a false choice, which doesn't inform anything about who your character is.
This is such a nitpicky nitpick, but I've wasted way too much time thinking about this not to share it xD
This is a fair nitpick though and one that I agree with! - Frank
I dont think this is nitpicky at all, but maybe thats because i am used to playing older systems where this disparity is even worse xD
Have you thought about just coming up with a reason for your players to receive a statistical bonus which falls in line with the checks which are coming up in the future content? I remember one time my only player was about to wander into a desert filled with powerful monsters. So, I had a npc character walk up to them offering an upgrade to their weapon. Sometimes you write the difficulty then realize your player is not at the statistics you thought they were. Or, the player is not comfortable with only being able to fight two enemies then have to heal.
Where the skill system is largely an afterthought like in dnd, the varying breadth of skills can be used as a balancing dial. 5e for example having a single strength associated skill does help make strength focussed characters more versatile since they only need to invest one skill proficiency compared to for example charisma which needs 4 or 5 to be good at all things charisma. Limiting the diversity of available (not even viable, but available) characters is a major disadvantage though.
Imo, if you have an attribute->skill association, each attribute should have at least 2 skills associated with it, but that's part of my broader desire to see two independent ways of mechanically expressing that a character is good at something.
Bro you had a bad dm.
Giving you a comment for the algorithm. This is good stuff! Keep it coming, guys.
Thank you for your contribution to the almighty algorithm!! And thank you for the kind words! - Frank
Another solid video! 🤠
A while back I read on the Kobold Press blog, they'd made their version of a group check (DnD 5e).
The group must succeed on a check on all 6 skills. Str, Dex, Con, Wis, Int, Cha at least once.
It is up to every single player to "choose" how they will help the task too succeed.
E.g. the bard can do a charisma check by playing a tune, telling a joke etc.
The wizard can do a wisdom check by conjuring a mage hand to help hold the rope
the barbarian makes a stregth check to hold the heavy bridge in place and so on, you get the idea.
So every player can theoretically make 6 checks., one new check on another skill if they fail the first one.
I think the example they used was a partially broken rickety rope bridge across a canyon.
This was to avoid only the "rope-use guy" doing the check every time.
That’s interesting. It definitely encourages the party to fit into different roles and strengths in order to have every skill covered while still giving them the freedom to be creative with how they make each check. I might have to use that in the future - Frank
My favourite is the "roll and keep" system from 4th edition Legend of the Five Rings. The game uses D10s, and when asked for a roll you combine a skill + stat (set by the GM) to get the number of dice you roll. Then you keep a number of dice equal to the stat.
For example, tracking a creature might call for a [Hunting/Perception] roll, where Hunting is the skill. If your Hunting is 3 and your Perception is 2, you roll 5 D10s. Then you keep 2 of those dice, because if your Perception being 2. But dice can also "explode" on a 10, meaning you roll that dice again and add it to the initial roll, so even if you can only keep two dice, you still have a chance to roll higher than 20.
In this system the number of dice you roll raises the statistical average of your rolls, while the number of dice kept bolsters how high your rolls can conceivably go.
You are also allowed to voluntarily call a number of "raises" to achieve an additional effect (or the GM will tell you how many you will need when you ask for extra effects). Some of these effects (especially combat ones) are fixed but most of it is free to determine between the players/DM.
And on top of all of that you get a limited number of Void Points that can be used to buff up rolls. You end up with a system that rewards risk taking that properly reflects the investment of a character in their power
I looked into Legends of the Five Rings in the past so I’m glad to see their system seems to work well - Frank
@@WhatisTableTop The most recent edition of Legend of the Five Rings uses a much different system to the older versions, which is also worth looking at as it promotes roleplaying.
One of my favorite skill systems is Burning Wheel. Everything is a skill, from Swords to Etiquette to Conspicuous. You have a rating in each skill and roll that many d6s, anything that is 4+ is a success. Plus you can use Fields of Related Knowledges (FoRKs) that if you have related skills, they add an additional dice. So if I'm sneaking, I'd have my Stealth skill, and if I have ranks in Inconspicuous, I'd add another d6. So having related skills makes you better which isn't something I've seen in many games.
This is a very interesting way to do a dice pool system - Frank
So Savage Worlds take. (You expected nothing less)
1. Skills: Savage Worlds has a set list of skills that changes slightly depending on the setting. Usually each setting will tell you which skills are removed or added depending on what you are playing. Eletronics is a default skill, but obviously fantasy games do not need it. Some settings add new things that need new skills, so they add those. On top of this, the core rules actually encourages you to make up your own skills for your character with GM approval. The idea for the approval is to make sure they know if it is too vague or too niche and may never come up. That being said, I don't think I have ever seen someone make a new skill, so it does not happen often, but is allowed and encouraged by the rules.
2. Group Rolls: There are couple situations here. When it comes to Stealth, I was not able to find anything for Player Character Group rolls. An idea I have seen though is that if someone gets a raise, it can cover someone's failure, and I like that if the Stealth roll is not opposed. When it comes to things like picking a lock for example, the way the game handles that is that others can roll Support rolls. If someone wants to help the rogue, they can choose a skill that makes sense, roll, and they can give up to a +2 bonus to the rogue's roll. Cumulatively, all players can give up to a +4. This makes it so that everyone that wants to be involved can be, and if someone fails, it is understood that no one else can really try because they all "tried."
3. Skill Chains - This sounds similar to Dramatic Tasks in Savage Worlds. They are usually multi-round skill checks, but can have complications and usually some big downside. I usually use them for rituals, or for stopping rituals. Or one time, to defuse a bomb.
Oh yeah, definitely forgot to mention the systems that will change skills depending on the setting, good catch! I’m personally of two minds of it. I like that they are willing to change skills to show what the setting thinks is important but as a person who plays a ton of different RPGs I always forget exactly which skill is in which system - Frank
That camera is focused on the bookshelf in every episode. Turn on eye tracking! 🤣
Ugh, don’t I know it - Frank
What IS tabletop? 😊
The greatest question of all! - Frank