The Best Controller in Dungeons and Dragons 5th Edition?
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- Опубликовано: 16 сен 2024
- What's the best Dungeons and Dragons 5e controller build? Who actually gets the best control spells in 5th edition? Let's break down this fight between wizard builds, sorcerer builds, bard builds and druid builds to see which D&D 5e class should be considered the best controller.
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I prefer a half orc barbarian with a belt of giant strength and a huge magic axe. He casts "hit face" a lot as the "dead" condition is quite useful for controlling the field.
J/K great video, as always.
Storm giant strength. You know, for flavor
If everyone is afraid of you, you control them all.
As a huge proponent of Wild Magic, I feel compelled to point out that about 40% of the results are positive, 30% are weird but benign, and only 30% are bad news.
Don't fear your surges; EMBRACE THEM.
Completely agree with this. One of my players got the reincarnation within a minute the same round they got dropped by an enemy. Even the bad stuff can be really fun...and the pot plant just thinking "not again" makes much more sense in the context of wild magic.
@@bakenpancakes One mustn't panic when they turn into a plant or sheep. The only one that I dread is the Fireball result. Before level 5, that can spell a TPK right then and there.
IMO 20% are bad, 38% are good and 42% are weird but benign or could be good or bad depending on the situation in which it occurs.
For example on situational the one that does 1D10 damage to everyone in a radius around you and heals you for the damage dealt. If you’re surrounded by allies not so great, if you’re surrounded by enemies however that’s very useful.
@@Ian-bf4yk I definitely see where you're coming from on that one. I'd classified the Vampiric Burst and Fireball as generally bad since most sorcerers don't tend towards melee combat.
Last game, I rolled 00... TWICE. It was a veritable festival of chaos.
Derek Burge fair enough although mine Dual wields daggers as well, because they don’t have many spell slots at all.
For level 5, you missed out on Wizards getting access to Wall of Force, which is considered by many to be one of the best battle field control spells in the game.
Tbh, I'd have used the Circle of the Land Druid. They get Divination, elemental terrain spells, Earthbind, Charm Monster, wall spells, Commune with Nature, Dispel Magic, and later on they get Tsunami, Plane Shift, Reverse Gravity, and a ton of other spells that lock enemies completely out of the game in droves. I think they are better than Circle of the Shepeherd for sure at the very least.
I thought I was going insane when he said Druids don’t have a great choice. The sheer amount of AoE spells my buddy’s Underdark Druid has is insane. Sure, my Diviner can auto-Banish a target or Mind Spike all day, but the Druid is usually turning the battlefield into a Ninja Warrior event for the enemy with Erupting Earth, Plant Growth, and Web.
@@samk108 lol, love that comparison. I really like his videos but I'm a little skeptical about his perspective on this one. Wizards are still freaking awesome and I could totally see why they would blow other classes out in this competition, but Druids were poorly represented here. They may not always be the best pick, but there was clearly a good bit of missing info here.
@@samk108 @RIOT Druid has more then enough great control spells to fill all its slots. And it can be just as good as the wizard. Although, i also need to keep the party alive and burn and kill a few enemies from time to time, Which makes druid fun to play.
My ex girlfriend was the real mvp when it came to control casters.
I'm pretty sure you alluded to, but didn't actually mention wall of force, which is arguably one of the best control spells at the level.
Andrew Nielsen for what it does it’s the best till force cage
As a DM, the Arctic Circle of the Land Druid is a fantastic controller with Spike Growth and Slow. She has made combats way easier than I planned them to be.
Agreed, spike growth is an amazing spell, especially when played right. Druids get Thorn Whip too, and my wife likes to cast spike growth, then thorn whip them to force them through 10 feet of spikes for at least 1D6 plus 4D4 damage. If there's anyone else with thorn whip, or a repelling Eldritch blaster, or even Thunderwave in a pinch, it just turns into a cheese grater.
Land druids can also prepare 4-7 spells per spell level (Clerics too), which means that they can control the field with a huge variety of spells.
Yeah player's druid likes to combine spike growth with the Wind Fan I gave them a while back. Cheese grater is the term we use as well :D
Spike growth plays stupid awsome with plant growth. Your DM may well give up on all ground based assaults of you throw a Warlock pushing foes back each round.
I love Spike Growth and Entangle as early game choking points. Stopping an entire group of melee enemies is a cinch and the best part- holding casters and archers in place for insane flanking bonuses on their squishy bodies. Anything that fails one or two strength saves or just has low HP is basically out of the fight. Of course it helps to navigate with party members first too so they actually get the bonuses.
you forgot that Druid also gets polymorph - druids is litteraly the animal caster, ofc htey get polymorph
They can also summon a bunch of minions that cast polymorph
I also feel he didn't cover the epic effect "Slimy doom" of contagion, disadvantage on CON saves ( the save you need to pass 3 of to overcome the disease or be affected for 7 days) but while you are affected by slimy doom you are automatically stunned from ANY source of damage until the END of its next turn, so as a druid you can cast call lightning which will always damage with save for half for 100 rounds, BUT WAIT!! it is stunned so it now automatically fails STR and DEX saves, no more saves against that call lightning after the 1st bolt! has no actions or reactions! and all attacks have advantage against them! this is the official BBEG slayer spell combo.
It is important to note here that in 5th edition most undead do NOT have immunity or even resistance to diseases infact not even a tarrasque does, albeit they have epic saves and can automatically overcome all conditions 3 times per long rest, if however you were somehow able to bait out those three uses and then afflict it with contagion: Slimy Doom, then that fight is over. you won. congrats u just slew the world eater!! ofc for a tarrasque you need non-direct magical spells, so just put up a wall of fire around it! focus the damage area inward and dance with glee as you watch the world eater burn! mmmm yummy tarrasque!
@@Bliss467 No GM worth their salt allows the 'Pixie Trick' though. And that's coming from a Druid player.
@@MrCowabungaa Well the Pixie trick is for them to cast polymorph on friendlies to turn friendlies into powerful beasts, rather than casting polymorph on a load of enemies to turn them into little mice.
@@nihility7082 unfortunately the effect doesn't occur UNTILL 3 failed saves. This had been confirmed in sage advice.
So in best case scenario it takes at least 3 turns for any affect to take place
I am playing the Divination / portent Wizard now, and it is a great controller. But legendary resistance is becoming more of an issue as our levels get higher. Nothing quite like wasting a spell AND a portent in one go. More and more I limit it to defense for our side. This does help control though as well, because keeping the party safe means I dont have to use my control spells as often, so I reserve my assets and extend my effectiveness.
With all that in mind, I actually think I prefer the abjuration wizard for control. They get to add proficiency to counterspell checks, which is great. But they also have spell resistance and arcane ward for taking less damage. This means maintaining concentration spells is easier, and many control and debuff spells rely on concentration. Also, less incoming damage means less desperation, which means I can extend my effectiveness by keeping more of my control spells at the ready. Plus extending the ward to reduce damage to an ally may mean that I am more likely to be able to hang on to my resources. This extends control effectiveness.
Anyway, cool video! Thanks for the content, as always!
getting rid of legendary resistances cannot be discounted.
What do you mean? Portent doesnt get rid of legendary resistances; its the other way around. Unless you mean portent can force the foes into a position where they have to use one, therefore opening up the foe to not having them later. But at our table we have no other regular casters; so all it means is that I wasted my turn and lost a whole round where the bad guy gets to go ham on everyone. Last week a villain resisted my portent and then critted on me and one-shotted me at full health. So for me it was a waste of 2 resources. I made my stabilization saves though.
Lore Bard is great against legendary resistance because most of the class effects are checks, not saves
@@xanderwyatt8234 True, but I dont like Bards mechanically or thematically. They are super powerful, I just dont enjoy them, so I stick to other spell-casting classes when I can.
What about the Cleric? They get a lot of amazing spells
Especially Order Cleric. They can bonus action cast most Enchantment spells. Or, if they target one or more allies with any 1st level or higher spell, one ally can take a reaction to attack with weapons. They gain access to the Compulsion spell, too. As a bonus action, they can grant opportunity attacks for ALL of their allies agaisnt the allies choice of a part of a horde... or even single target. So, one gets a weapon reaction, the rest get an opportunity, including yourself.
Listen I love me a good cleric, I main cleric, more than half my characters have been clerics. They have fantastic spells, but not enough I the control department to face off against a juggernaut like the wizard. Plus bard can steal all the clerics best control spells. Unfortunately cleric has investments in other fields and can't compete, but that's just when it comes to control. Clerics are best girl in most other competitions.
TheRoogleBoyWCF I was thinking the same thing, but maybe he figures the cleric will most likely have to focus on other things
If this was a support video I would agree with with you. Clerics are an amazing support
In fact I think the best support are clerics and bards. Druids are really a full in any hole in your party class before anyone mentions them as support
@@conradkorbol I suppose it's what you mean by support. If your talking heals then druid has it number one. Circle of dreams balm of the summer court is just so dang good. If your talking buffs then yeah cleric all the way. I have been enjoying my cleric - sorcerer in my current campaign. Meta magic and chromatic orb go a long way for tempest cleric.
Missed shadow sorcerer.... hund of il omen is an excelent Control tool for keeping folks locked Down... i allways feel like sorcerers dont get Any love....
I agree with your ultimate conclusion that Divination Wizard is the best controller. I quibble with some of your analysis of specific spells, and you left off Hypnotic Pattern!
Suggestion can't do that. You can't make a highwayman leave to confess his crimes, because that is not a reasonable suggestion. That is the one true limitation of the spell: "The suggestion must be worded in such a manner as to make the course of action sound reasonable."
If you as a DM don't enforce this rule, then Suggestion, a 2nd level spell will be better than Dominate Monster an 8th level spell.
zeedar412 I’d argue it’s a RAI vs RAW situation. Reasonable to me is simply anything that doesn’t bring harm onto the target. So turning himself in to a guard is harming himself that wouldn’t work. But suggesting he leave immediately and find a way to atone for his sins....more reasonable.
@@TheKillaShow as I said, with that interpretation, you can use suggestion as a better spell than Dominate Monster. You can tell a Dragon to fly away and leave you his treasures. It simply becomes too powerful for a 2nd level spell. You can run it as you want, but I will always strongly reinforce this rule.
It also forces better roleplay in my opinion, because you have to try and understand the creature you are trying to charm, and find out what would be reasonable for them. A lawless bandit for example will never surrender to the law, but he might be willing to attack his boss to take over as gang leader.
I've got a level 9 lore bard (who's also a level 1 trickery cleric), and he's incredibly versatile. He has several spells mentioned in this video (charm person, heat metal, polymorph, synaptic static), but not counterspell, which I [slightly] regret not taking when I got lore bard level 6. Instead I picked up some damage (at the time I was very much lacking it) with chromatic orb and guardian of faith (both of which I've used several times since). Also in the party is a level 10 divination wizard, and truly I am outclassed by him in pretty much every regard besides my versatility. With studded leather armor, 18 dexterity, shield of faith, and an actual shield out I have 20 AC, which our wizard can only achieve through mage armor AND shield... so, while the wizard is pretty much stuck with either spamming spells like a madman to survive OR staying behind his frontline, my bard can more or less do whatever he wants whenever he wants. I would have to completely devote my spell list to controlling the battlefield to even compete with the wizard, and bards can't just copy down new spells in a book to memorize them like wizards can, so I passed on that.
TLDR - divination wizards are definitely better control casters than lore bards - although it is quite close - great video :)
Best Control spell: Thornwhip (Druid) - Get over here!
No save and as a bonus still being able to bonus action cast a Healing Word or any supportive Class Bonus Action (like Bardic Inspiration).
Watching this video 3 years after it was made, and I'd love to see you redo this video while actually giving the Druid the respect it deserves lol Spike Growth is an absolutely nasty spell that locks down melee threats, can be combined with Plant Growth, and augmented by dropping an Erupting Earth nearby to extend that difficult terrain. Honestly, I find it a little crazy that you didn't touch on that kind thing, and it feels like you were gunning for the Wizard to win off the bat
Where is phantasmal force? A single int save (no repeats), and any opponent thinks they're in a coffin with spikes on the inside. They're blinded and don't want to move (a generous DM might let it cause restrained), they take a bit of damage each round, AND you can still stab them and they'll think it's the spikes. (Note: a developer confirmed that you could use it to put a bag over someone's head while they're on horseback, so it can move with the target). They have to use actions to make investigation checks, which are probably as low or lower than their int save. Not quite the permanence or open-endedness of suggestion, but it isn't language-dependent, it targets a rare save, and it lets you actually kill the thing with advantage while it's disabled.
I also think Blindness(/Deafness) is worth mentioning because it's a rare lasting debuff that doesn't take concentration, and scales pretty well to multiple targets with spell level.
Cody! I think you did Otto's Irresistable Dance a bit of a disservice and it needs another look! The creature has to use its action just to attempt the Wisdom save to remove the effect from itself, not at the end of it's turn. And until then, every attack roll vs the creature is at advantage, and every attack roll and dex save the creature makes is at disadvantage. So if your initiatives line up, the spell just works and everyone can get an entire round of doing some nasty things to it.
Same for Tasha's Hideous laughter, sure it isn't going to last very long but it INCAPACITATES the target which means auto-crits! Basically Sleep that requires a wisdom save instead of being low HP.
@@agilemind6241 Incapacitaded doesnt give auto crits.
@@agilemind6241 yeah same as the above comment but it does give advantage on melee attacks cause it knocks the target prone and legit even one round of the big bad not being able to do anything is good for a level 1 slot
Best Control Spells:
Level 1:Sleep(
Level 2:Web
Level 3:Hypnotic Pattern
Level 4:Polymorph
Level 5:Wall of Force
Winner with ease:Wizard
Druids plant growth and conjure animals are great control spells although I guess conjure animals can be used any potential way you want
you realy missed the cleric with: bane, contagion, bless, banishment, command, protection from evil and good, blindness/deafness, calm emotion, hold person, silence, bestow curse, spirit guardians, freedom of movement, cantagion, blade barrier (wall spell).
+10 to hit (war domain), warding flare, improved flare (light domain)
I'd also include Bless and Aid, and maybe even Shield of Faith in there. War Gods Blessing is OP.
Beneteus der graue Wolf You forgot about the dungeon destroying spell that is Forbiddance.
I dont know if someone else said something about it already, but an artic circle of the land druid gets good control spells.
No mention of Sorcerer Metamagic? Subtle Spell makes it so the casters on the enemy team cannot counterspell you, because there is no evidence that you're casting a spell. It also neatly bypasses the mundane gag and shackles that might prevent a caster from acting if the party is in a prison situation.
Twinned Spell effectively turns a level 2 Hold Person into a level 3 Hold Person before you have access to third level spell slots.
Heightened Spell gives enemies disadvantage on the first saving throw for a spell, even though it is costly to use at three sorcery points, at higher levels you can use this metamagic more often than the Divination Wizard's Portent.
@@jhinpotion9230 not all spells have an M component. you can fiddle subtle with a wand or another small focus
How did we forget Heighten Spell? Disadvantage on spell checks for sorcery points.
The bard stops the king from invading your country.
The cleric heals and bolsters the soldiers to defend.
The druid makes the land inaccessible and creates choke points.
The wizard, shows up, separates all the factions fighting, stops the invading army in its tracks, sends the commander to the abyss, and gets home in time for spell studies....
what about war wizard, most control spells are concetration and having a bonus to keeping that up is pretty insane
Or just take war caster feat instead of an asi
being able to cast those spells before your enemies and allies are mixed up because of your initiative bonus is really impactful too.
Sorcerer with Careful Spell makes a lot of control AOE spells amazing. Casting Hypnotic Pattern on top of the melee or Fear is pretty great.
Conjuration Wizards at lvl 10 are also amazing. Being able to drop a battlefield control spell and not worry about your concentration breaking from damage is great.
I think Suggestion has to be a request that sounds reasonable to the target.
Yup it's something that it might have done. This spell doesn't work the way this guy says
Yeah the wording of suggestion is vague like that. If you’re out of combat I’d let players have some more free reign with it, but something like “confess to the constable” would only really work if the enemy felt especially guilty or if they were certain death was the only alternative. Some of the more absurd courses of action I’d probably leave for dominate person/monster
Points for pointing out the Scatter spell. That's one I haven't ever really noticed or considered for any build. That's a nice one.
I also want to point out, you're a dude who really understands 5e character creation and sees how these class abilities interact very well. I don't always agree with you, but you get the system and I can't think of any bad advice you've given, at least compared to some of the other channels I've seen. Good job bro.
I feel like twinned/careful spell sorcerer is kinda underrated here.
Honestly I feel like conjuration would have been of pretty high value. My druid once basically had two CR 5 creatures on lock (he himself was a level 5 character) because he conjured 8 wolves which all had advantage and effectively rooted the enemy in place if they didn't want to get opportunity attacked. Plus the wolves also had the risk of knocking the enemies prone and while a dc of 11 may seem weak it the enemy's chances of passing decrease with each saving throw (because of theoretical probability). So yeah don't count out summoners as CC because at the end of the day a pack of wolves does its job about as well as a similar level spell
for cantrips, what about ray of frost, frostbite, booming blade, lightning lure, or thorn whip?
Thank you somebody for noticing
As well as lightning lure vs ranged attackers
Really should have included the Sorcerers Shadow Origin archetype. Only for the feature Hound of ill Omen, the hounds target suffers disadvantage against all of your saving throw, you can also summon as many hounds as you have sorcerery points as a BONUS action each turn, meaning you can summon a hound on top of an enemy and then cast your spell in the same turn and can have multiple hounds on field at any given time. The only drawback this suffers is the cost of 3 sorcerery points per hound being expensive.
Divine soul sorcerers can twin bane
also the ability to trow around darkness wherever you like that you can see trough will fuck up a lot of enemies.
@@conradkorbol nope, spells that target multiple targets cannot be twinned.
Joshbehe you right, I thought it only
Targeted one person for some reason
Divine soul sorcerers still
Get a ton of control spells
The mention of Flesh to Stone on here meant an instant like from me.
Now, with Tasha's new subclasses, there is a hands down winner. Take a College of Eloquence Bard, give them an Instrument of the Bard, for example a Doss Lute, and they take Hypnotic Pattern, and Banishment.
As a bonus action, you can use Unsettling Words to use a bardic inspiration dice as a negative against their next saving throw, so any single target should have a hard time saving against them.
The Instrument will give disadvantage on all saving throws against Hypnotic Pattern, and if you want to make sure that one of the targets within the 30' cube fails, use Unsettling Words on them, so they have disadvantage and either a d6, d8, d10, or d12 subtracted from that saving throw. Even Fey Ancestry or Magic Resistance means you are just making a normal save, and the bard can still hit you with Unsettling Words to reduce your chances of making that even further.
As a single target controller, CoE Bards with Unsettling Words are the best controllers, and if you can get your GM to allow you an Instrument of the Bards, you can go from the best single target controller, to the best crowd controller as well. Hypnotic Pattern saving at disadvantage is absolutely brutal.
I've found that the Druid's plant-based control spells can be enhanced with a little extra flavor, and the more specific you can convince the DM to be about exactly where they're caught.
Illusion Wizard? Using Illusions to control the battlefield and actually make it harder for enemies to get around. I mean sure they could examine it and determine it's an illusion, but they just wasted an entire turn doing that and you can summon a new Minor Illusion of like a 5ft wall and other such illusions every single turn. With a cantrip.
Minor Illusion yourself summoning Magma Mephits every round and your enemies don't know if the little elemental in their face is a real enemy or not. Do they swing at it or move over there and swing on the Barbarian? Other illusions you even gain the ability to make real. Illusion up a 15ft thick stone box(15ft of stone around them and 5ft for them to stand in is within the 20ft square of Major Image) and you are now trapping the enemy, then use your reaction and make it real, the enemy is then locked down for 1 whole minute unless they can find a way out. It's no longer an illusion, it's a real stone box they are trapped in.
And if you can plan ahead, you can Mirage Arcane the entire battlefield to whatever you want basically. And this isn't even considering all the non Illusion Spells they can still use.
Illusion Wizard wins out on this always IMO.
Totally DM dependent though, if you have a dick DM, then your illusions never get to do anything. Things like Phantasmal force, major image, etc. end up useless.
@@lord6617 Very true, but if your DM is doing that then he needs to step his DM game up. Illusionists are supposed to be inventive and fun, they're pretty weak and the specialization gives you nothing otherwise. As a DM it's your job to reward that inventiveness and validate that style of play, not exclude it. That's my opinion and how I run my tables anyways.
Good vid and comparison - though I was surprised at the lack of praise for Hypnotic Pattern! I'd like to see a rematch due to all of the new Tasha's content. Also, I think a Shadow Sorcerer should be a big contender in any rematch: it can see in magical Darkness they create, using it to block line of sight and thus potentially giving Disadvantage to enemy attacks while the Sorcerer gains Advantage on attacks (along with Warlock allies, those with the new Blind-Fighting Fighting Style, and appropriately Wildshaped druids), the ability to summon multiple Hounds of Ill Omen, not only itself being able to prone enemies with it's attacks, but the Disadvantage it imparts on saving throws that helps to land big controls on BBEGs, including control spells like Hold Monster that grant repetitive saves, is astronomically better at control than anything a Wild Sorcerer can do. Also, there's now Eloquence Bard throwing around negatives to saving throws with their Bardic inspiration, which is just fantastic.
Related to this, I'm currently leveling what will be a Shadow Sorcerer 13 / Eloquence Bard 5 / Undead Warlock 2 that is going to utilize all that I mentioned above to give my DM headaches. :-D
I agree that Divination Wizard is likely the best of those you mentioned, but I will list off a few reasons why Lore Bard is at worst the runner up:
-Vicious Mockery stacks stupidly well with a lot of shutdown spells, especially Slow. With Slow, your opponent gets one attack roll per turn, which they'd have disadvantage on with Vicious Mockery. One of the hardest shutdowns of a physical, brutish opponent.
-Since you can effectively shutdown martial opponents with Slow, you can take Silence to cover magic casting opponents. You can cover most boss-type enemies fairly well with just those two spells.
-I feel like a lot of people don't see it this way, but any good controller will have a weapon they can use at least competently. If you can force concentration saves on an opponent without using up one of your spell slots, you're contributing in a small way to battlefield control. And unlike Wizard and Sorcerer, Bards have good options for armor and weapons, not to mention a bit more HP.
-Cutting Words was pretty handily overlooked here, but think about how great it is from a debuff standpoint: no spell slot used, works on a reaction, and you get multiple uses per short rest after lvl 5. There isn't a context where it's useless and you can still use your standard Bardic Inspiration to buff. It does a lot of what spells are meant to do without actually using up spell slots and standard actions. If you ask me, it's Bardic Inspiration+Cutting Words is better than Portent. Sure, Portent is really great when it's used, but you only get two per day. Bardic Inspiration+Cutting Words is just way more consistent, and after Font of Inspiration, you could be using Inspiration Dice over 10 times a day.
-Lore Bards make waaay better skill monkeys than anything else listed. And if your DM is the kind of person to allow players to make skill checks in combat in creative ways (using an Intimidation check to scare people away, using Deception checks to trick opponents into wasting attacks and actions on decoys or general misdirection), that can act as a kind of informal battlefield control.
Looking back on this, I guess I'd still agree that Divination Wizards remain better controller CASTERS, but if you expand your definition of controller beyond spellcasting, their toolbox is a bit small to compete with the Lore Bard. Though I admit it will come down to DM interpretation and player implementation.
Good video tho i would like u to consider the magical secrets more? Seeing u gave to 'round' to wizards while the bard can LITERALLY take the same spells at those levels
In the cantrip list, you didn't mention a LOT of really useful control spells.
Chill Touch - Prevent a target from being able to heal until the end of their next turn. When facing creatures with Regeneration, or when your opponent has healing powers, this is just so strong.
Frostbite - The target has Disadvantage on its next attack.
Infestation - This is a little on the weaker side, but forcing a character to move around aimlessly can have its advantages.
Lightning Lure - When there is a target using Spiderclimb keeping out of range of your party, you can use this to pull him off the roof and force him to fall, for example
Ray of Frost - Reducing a targets movement speed by 10 ft can be huge, especially if you are forcing the target to walk through a Grease, or an Entangling Roots, or through some kind of damaging terrain like lava or Evard's Black Tentacles.
Shocking Grasp - While you don't necessarily want to be in close range, being able to prevent the target from making an Attack of Opportunity by removing his Reaction for the turn is useful.
Thorn Whip - See Lightning Lure
Vicious Mockery - Already mentioned, and it's basically Frostbite for Bards
All of these are useful Control spells, many of which can be taken by multiple caster types.
So, i feel that the Illusion school was overlooked here. I played a high level Illusionist and while early on, divination would have won out in class features, the Illusion school can literally make illusions real. Granted due to vague wording, i feel my DM was fairly generous with my use of the ability as he loved the creativity that was being brought to the table to be successful.
IE: Our group was attacked by a family of dragons. I used major Illusion to trap the adult/ancient dragon in a heavy lead box for a full minute.
IE2: Burning house filled with prisoners. Mid-battle i used silent image to create a floating bubble of water 15ft cube over the house. Then made it real and doused the fire. Albiet knocking half my party and enemies prone as the water came off the roof...
Not to mention, their school abilities help entrap and distract outside and inside combat. I cant count how many times i survived using the illusory self ability.
3 key components i learned as a controller is:
1) Surviving is huge. Control the field, but protect yourself because while the others do damage, enemies will find out your a squishy pain in the ass.
2) High initiative is a blessing for a control character. Gain dominion as fast as possible and ensure your team is either protected or has an edge before the combat truly begins.
3) Get creative. Being as smart as or smarter than the DM is a plus, but using your spells and tools to manipulate outcomes will always make the game interesting, fun, and your DM will look forward to thr ridiculous shit you come up with to trump him next.
I think you should take into account the instruments of the bards, they impose disadvantage on anyone saving against their charm spells. This makes them a ton more powerful and they can even be uncommon.
I'm doing a circle of the shepherd druid now and it's a blast, not going to lie. I mean, doing shit like Spike and plant growth mixed together while having a huge damage output is absolutely beautiful. It's not necessarily the best controller, but it's all in how you work it and combine spells.
Sorry man, love your content but I have to disagree. I think the topic got lost somewhere.
Allow me to explain my train of thought.
Comparing the available spells is not the right way to do it, a wizard can only pick so many and than prey he'll find the scrolls needed.
This is where druids shine since they can adapt better by having their full spell list available at every rest.
Secondly you never took metamagic into account, this is the only reason to even compare a sorc with a wizard. If they both get points for polymorph a sorc should get twice the amount.
Also shadow sorc is way better in control than wild imo, just saying.
Last but certainly not least, how do they play?
How much can they impact the board and here we have my personal winner, the bard.
Bards can utilize their action, bonus and reaction every round to change the outcome of a battle.
In an encounter where counterspell is not needed a bard will use cutting words every round when a wizard will usually leave his reaction completely unused
Could you possibly make an “Ultimate Divination Wizard Controller Build” video? Is love to see how you would gather such spells as you level up.
Be sure to check out Treantmonk's channel, and his just-starting Wizard series.
Not that it changes the outcome but Dissonant Whispers is also solid control as if the opponent hasn't reached an ally they essentially have to waste their action moving back into place if they lose the save since it forces them to run away. Furthermore, it burns their reaction if they haven't used it yet so this is useful if your party needs to slip past their foe but don't want to take an attack of opportunity.
Great video. Have you considered doing a video for best Magekiller? A DM controlled wizard can be one of the most dangerous enemies in the game, I'd love to see what you think the best class is for shutting them down. For my money, I think it's a trickster cleric with the magic initiate feat. Invoke duplicity throwing out Chill Touch and Eldritch Blast while holding a Bane or a Silence spell is a long range headache for any spellcaster.
I think monks are the best mage killers. They are dex based so they get better initiative they get alot of extra movement so they can get to the mage faster. And stunning strike can just win you the fight on turn 1 before they even cast a single spell.
You haven't seen the ridiculousness of a Grapple Fighter Bard. Grapple also is immune to legendary saves which is. Just icing on the cake.
For what its worth, sorcerer is proficient in con saves to maintain concentration. Also subtle metamagic lets you use control spells in social settings.
While the Warlock has very limited spell slots, the invocations for EB like slowing or moving them makes for great consistent control and battlefield manipulation, and these invocations count for each blast, so at level 5 you can move them 20ft or remove 20ft from their movement. combined with spells like Hunger of Hadar or Spike growth can be very effective
ALL OF THIS HAPPENED last Sunday.
Having a Bard of Glamour, a Divination Wizard, a Knowledge Cleric, Battle Master and a Storm Barbarian against you is... tough.
Three of those I think would be hard
Knowledge cleric and storm babarbairn are less good than the others
I like the idea of an evocation wizard for control. Not all of the control spells are evocation, but some of my favorite (sleet storm, ice storm, etc.) are evocation and with sculpt spell you can choose for them to not affect your party
Basically any elemental control spell
Otto’s Irresistible Dance requires the target to spend its action trying to save. It’s not an every round end of turn save. They have to spend their entire turn attempting to stop dancing. With a high spell save DC that could be multiple rounds of wasted turns getting wailed on. You haven’t lived until you’ve watched a bard use Otto’s Irresistible Dance with Viscous Mockery to make a powerful Efreeti Chicken Dance itself to death.
Slow is an amazing control spell, especially if you can combo it with another caster who can Haste the party. The action economy can get flipped real quick.
I think sorcerer is a really consistent controller. Their heighten meta magic force your opponent to roll spell saves with disadvantage and shadow magic sorcerer allows you summon a hound that does the same thing if it’s with 5 feet of an opponent
An argument for Warlock: the Kraken sub-type in UA has a great control ability at first level that is able to be cast as many times as you want. You can lock down entire groups of enemies, protecting your back-line range and theoretically helping preventing enemies from moving to beneficial locations (flanking, high ground, etc.). Granted, the scaling for the warlock controller isn't great, but thought it was worth mentioning.
i would argue that for Druids, the Circle of Land -> Underdark -> having permanent access to spells like Web and Stinking Cloud is a pretty good boon to a controller
Cutting warlock is stupid purely due to invocations, where he can get multiple control effects on blast, a cantrip. Not to mention the free spell invocations. And shadow sorcerer blows wild magic out the water, and same for circle of land druid. Also no cleric? Order cleric is completely designed around control.
Tbh, I have not seen much use of my CC spells. sure, only ever got one good one as far as i'm concerned, and that is Crown of Madness.
That spell, on my level 7 wizard made him able to semisolo 5 frost giants, 4 out of 5 died due to having to kill each other.
He could finish off the last bloodied one after that. It was never my DMs intention to set 5 giants lose on me, but once he saw how effective my wizard his CoM was he winged it and send some more after him. effectively turning the entire scene into a great reversal of fortune for the soldiers that had fought those giants up till that point.
This example just shows something situational, but then again, as hard as my sides launched into orbit with the levitate suggestion as a control spell (love it).
It is not going to help me when there are 5 huge creatures about to stomp a village that I intend to save.
It has also been so much fun to transfer my action into essentially gaining another creature its features through it.
Like that time my sorceress shut down an entire 'boss' fight, by being before the dwarf barbarian boss, and have him CCed, effectively turning the fight into a cakewalk.
That was a classic example of what you mentioned with the round up all the little ones before going for the boss.
And seen as how the objective was to capture this particular boss, it made it all the easier without his allies there to help him resist capture.
no cleric?
1st level: no faerie fire?
scatter: you don't have line of effect, wall of force provides total cover
Definitely no cleric, Faerie Fire isn't really control, it's more support
I'm in a Theros campaign playing a Human Divination Wizard with the Oracle gift, devotion to Kruphix, and the Lucky feat. Reality bends to my will.
While I don’t disagree with you. But I think you didn’t quite give enough credit to the sorcerers meta magic. Quickened spell, careful spell, and twinned spell all completely change how many of the spells that sorcerers get operate in a battlefield control setting. Bonus action polymorph? No problem. Targeting 2 creatures with suggestion without mass suggestion? No problem. Zero risk of hitting your teammates hypnotic pattern? Yes please!
heightened spell also helps stick your spells
I really feel like druid is being underrated here, not claiming theyre the strongest, but he glossed over some seriously big spells they get that can make a huge difference. Not to mention he forgot that Druids, the literal animal obsessed people, get Polymorph. Plus, i know it's situational, but if you're fighting any sort of animal/beast, something as simple as animal friendship can help a lot by simply taking one of the creatures out of the fight. In my very first session ever we were fighting some wolves, and one of my party members started trying to befriend one using the spell and some spare meat in his bag. This took that wolf out of the fight and gave us another companion.
I feel like there wasn't enough acknowledgement for Sorcerer Control Caster options. The Shadow Magic Sorcerers 6th level ability to summon a creature as a bonus action can greatly hinder their "main" foe, not to mention being able to cast Darkness that can be seen through. Also I feel like an acknowledgement should have been made for the sorcerers metamagic ability Twinned Spell. This ability combined with spell that normally would only have a single target becomes DEADLY.
Or how divine soul sorcerers can twin twin bane
I mean fucking incrieblen
We won a high level campaign against goblin wizards, 2 hill giants, and a mess of minions because my bard cast Otto's Irresistable Dance on one of the hill giants. Taking that giant out of the mix and allowing the rest of the party to deal with everything else madethe difference. Plus, the visual of hill giants dancing was perfect.
If a Bard has an Instrument of the Bards, Hypnotic Pattern is so good that it's almost broken. Imposing disadvantage on all saves to the spell makes it ridiculous.
It does the same with Suggestion, Mass Suggestion, and Otto's Irresistable Dance. (which it needs to be noted, DOES NOT ALLOW A SAVE until a round after it lands.)
For Control Wizard, go enchantment, evocation, or transmutation.
For Druid, go Land.
I agree with most but shadow sorcerer at least honourable mention
I think there's also an argument to be made for Arcana Domain Cleric. They have a number of controlling features and spells, the ability to break conditions on allies, cast Dispel Magic and, much later on, take a number of Wizard spells as Domain Spells. This combined with the base elements of the Cleric make them a fairly durable alternative with more supportive features.
It's probably worth differentiating between locking down individuals and area control, vastly different situations.
I build a 11 Conquest paladin, 6 Long death monk, 3 Fey tomelock Kobold. in an attempt to get as much out of fear as I could in one character. Unfortunately the game I played this character in was Curse of Strahd (Lots of fear Immune monsters and bosses), and a custom one centered around evil clerics and Paladins.(every other enemy has a aura of fear immunity or is a robot) So my character was dramatically screwed. But I still like the character I made and if a campaign comes I'll see if I can't get him in somewhere.
Thank you for reading my comment!
No mention of fog cloud?!?!? I have found that a properly placed fog cloud can completely change the outcome of battle and it levels crazy. Loved the video.
While Druids get to cast, I tend to consider them not really spellcasters as they're other abilities tend to occupy most of their time (at least early on).
Can i make a suggestion...i feel like we're leaving out the Divine Soul sorcerer. You get access to bane, bless, counterspell, silence. Every single spell off the clerics list as well as your own spells. and twinning something like hold monster/person or CONTAGION is huge. Telekinesis is also good for completely shutting down someone.
Suggestion is such a dick spell, my rogue got hit with it mid-battle and send shopping for berries. He just left the party fighting a cult that was hiding in town to check out the market.
I consider suggestion to be way more of a social spell than a combat spell. It specifically states that the suggestion has to be reasonable and turning yourself in to the constable certainly isn't. The main combat use i would give it is suggesting someone surrenders if they are already intimidated or you have a clear advantage. Or convince someone who isn't happy with the group to turn cloak but both of those can also be accomplished with a nat 20 persuasion check.
Depending on the DM's Interpretation of illusion spells, The illusion wizard can be one of the best controllers at high levels due to the combination of malleable illusions and mirage arcane. Granted, mirage arcane takes 10 minutes to cast, but assuming that you have time to prepare, using an action to alter the illusion to any shape necessary has excellent utility. After all, a dragon can use legendary resistance to shrug off most control spells, save forcecage, but it is unable to counter being trapped in an illusory cage made by mirage arcane, which can remain for up to ten days. Additionally, any illusory effects you create remain even if you alter the illusion again. Mirage arcane also does not require concentration. Finally, illusory reality is exceptionally notable, as you can use an action to cast an illusion spell that creates a wall divides the battlefield, then use your bonus action to make said wall solid for a minute, circumventing concentration requirements. This effect also applies to the aforementioned mirage arcane.
One of the best evil characters I ever got to play was a divination wizard who was an advisor to a lord. He was all ABOUT that Flesh to Stone, and used Portent to force a few failed saves. He had an alchemical garden filled with the statues of his enemies, frozen in horror.
I'd like to add that, on top of the classes you have provided, there's two other casters that I think deserve a shout-out: Divine Soul Sorcerers and Illusion Wizards.
Divine Soul doesn't have anything that you'd call a class ability that's sole purpose is to give this class extra leverage in controlling however you have Favored by the Gods that can assist you in Concentration saving throws with that nice 2d4, and you have access to the entire Cleric spell list, which just so happens to have spells like Bane, Silence, Bestow Curse, Blade Barrier, and so on. These, coupled by Metamagic, offer more options for spell-based battlefield control.
Illusion Wizard, despite being all about Illusions, can be a pretty nice battlefield controller, especially at higher levels. You don't get Portent, but your ability to manipulate illusions and make them real allows you to pull off things like making a solid wall of adamantine with only Silent Image, while still being able to change it as you see fit. Sure, you can't damage or directly harm anyone, but if you just wanna be a really good Controller, you don't need damage anyway.
That's just how I see it.
Any reason Nature Cleric wasn't included? You get access to control spells that are druid only like Spike Growth and Plant Growth (so 25ft of movement to go 5ft, taking 2d4 every 5 ft, in a 20ft radius), Wind Wall (so good control against spirits), not to mention the standard cleric abilities including Dispel Magic, Command, etc.
Not sure it would beat the #1, but it is at least competitive with the list here, :)
The reason they aren't in the video is because they're a bad cleric posing as a even worse druid
@@Spiceodog lol, I suppose I can see why people wouldn't like them (Life clerics are pretty dope), but seriously:
By Level 5 you can maintain a 4:1 movement slow that does 2d4 worth of magical piercing damage (no save) within a 40ft diameter between your party's ranged/magic characters and the enemy, potentially up to 30 minutes if you really want to. And this goes up as your level increases.
With Hold Person by Level 5 you have a nice defense against humanoid creatures, and with your Channel Divinity the ability to turn swarms of beasts into swarms of allies. No other cleric can match this, and not even the beastmaster-style rangers and druids can match you for animal control and ally creation. So your ability to hold down an area of the battlefield with HP meat shields is unmatched.
With Wind Wall at Level 5 you can make the party completely safe from spirit creatures, archery (sans siege weapons, but let's be real, those never come up really), and air-based poisons.
And we haven't even gotten into the Command-style spells and Dispel Magic spells that the cleric has access to that are mentioned in the video. This is purely the realm of area denial control spells, which the video rarely mentions (though, notably, Cody does talk about the Spike Growth and Plant Growth combo for rangers).
So you can say all you want that this is not a control character, but you are immune from spirits, immune from archery, virtually immune from any creature with less than 80ft of ground movement, good resistance against fliers, good rooting ability against humanoid targets, and the ability to throw swarms of animals against the enemy if the DM throws swarms of animals against you.
This is a good control character build, especially if you want to do area denial and area control.
I think a good cantrip for a controll caster would be Frostbite, not the best or most effective, but a solid pick if you a going for a controll caster
Frostbite is redundant or arguably worse than viscous mockery, next weapon attack roll disadvantage vs. next attack roll. I suppose wisdom vs. constitution saving throw may be relevant too.. but I would almost always take mockery.
@@mattc424 I agree 100% but if you dont have acess to vicious mockery which is a cantrip that only the bard gets, it is a fine replacement for it, if controll is what you are looking for.
Wall of force is best control spell use the sphere option in the open, use the wall when indoor and split the enemy party in half and action economy them to death or make them burn the disintegration that was gonna fly at your fighter with two left feet
Favorite use of polymorph that my players have done is turned the incredibly powerful martial spellcaster they were fighting into a toad and then stuffing him I to a bag of holding so he suffocated until he passed out in his regular form. They took him back to base and interrogated him, I rolled a nat 20 on him escaping his bonds while only one player was in the room with him. He nearly killed the player but he managed to get through (luckily they has taken his spellcasting focus so he couldn't cast most of his spells)
Agreed that wall if force should have been mentioned.
I'm of the thought that a lore bard is the best controller in the game. They can do everything the wizard can do and also there spells due to magical secrets.
My Pact of the Tome warlock was actually a pretty decent controller all through out our Princes of the Apocalypse campaign. The fact that Cosi creed merfolk from the Zendikar Planeshift article can get Vicious Mockery definitely helped though. And Infestation can be a useful bit of battlefield manipulation for shifting opponents around.
I had a fiend warlock that took wall of fire, then we had two other people in the party that multi classed into warlock. They all had agonizing blast, repelling blast, and grasp of hadar, so the strategy was to just push and pull the monster through the wall of fire as many times as they could. It was... very difficult to deal with.
Gust of Wind overlooked again, not to mention Sorcerer meta magic.
Divination Wizards just need more love. Thanks to D&D Beyond I was able to search spell lists over all the casting classes by school of magic, and what I what found was a little unnerving. Evocation had the most spells, with 6 pages worth of spells it had the most spells over all the classes by far; by comparison, the school with the fewest number of spells was actually a 3-way tie between Divination, Enchantment each having 2 pages worth of spells, which means Evocation has as many spells as those 3 combined. All the rest of the schools of magic, over all the classes, had 4 to 5 pages worth of spells.
Single class hands down War Magic Wizard, best selection of spells bonus to initiative( playing first means setting up the scene) better concentration and bonus to AC nothing beats a +14 initiative Wizard with alert. Multiclassing i would say 1 Cleric forge domain/ X Wizard abjuration, this build has AC in the 30s combined with the wizard spell list and heals from cleric and a ward to absorb extra damage on top of that. So you get a front line behemoth with controlling spells and combat becomes child's play. Not to say that others don't make good controllers but those 2 builds are as good as it gets.
The stone sorcerer, though it is UA, has some decent controlling option and the additional smite option makes it really versatile.
I’m a little surprised not to see Order Cleric on this list as well considering you’re including Druid here.
I've actually used silence in conjunction with a few other spells to take out a goblin hideout solo with my forge domain cleric since silence muffles all sound so I used it to mask my armors sound and hide the screams of enemies when I cast spells on them(I put the silence in a corridor so the enemies couldn't call for help given that sound won't travel through a silence zone)
hey, you left out Polymorph is a Druid Spell too. and summoning classes like necro wizards or the druid's wall of bears, spore druids possible 60+ zombies/beasts combo allow you to create a living or unliving wall that you can command.
Late game Illusion Wizard, lvl 14 able to make that illusionary jail or iron box into and actual wall or box, makes a generic illusion spell into a battlefield altering reality warp.
For sorcerer, the Shadow subclass is the best for control due to the 6° lv ability
I remember playing at d&d campaign. I was getting my ass kicked by a Sader and our parties barred used heat metal and that is what saved me from death
Bards also get Dissonant whisper, which can force your opponent to blow their reaction
Wizard is my favorite full caster in 5e. So many spell options, so many exciting subclasses, so funnn
Wild magic controller. It would make sense from a character motivation standpoint as someone who suffers from a loss of control may be obsessed with trying to control situation. I like it.