Thank you for this video. I'm a recording engineer and I use a Denon receiver in my living room and I had no idea what they meant by LFE+MAIN and "Doubled Bass" would have made so much more sense. I never could get the bass right in my living room despite a London Acoustics sound treatment. It sounded large and thick, but not accurate and my floor-standing front L/R speakers (both with 8" drivers) were throwing like mad. I thought LFE only would undo my crossovers but I was pleasantly surprised that it also incorporates my crossover settings to the sub along with preserving the LFE 120hz movie track. I adjusted the crossover to what hit the room nicely (60hz on front L/R speakers that are rated down to 32hz with articulation down below 40hz being questionable) It now sounds GREAT and the bass is super accurate and can even jump scare you if content throws a low frequency at you from nowhere. I use the same crossover settings and LFE mode in stereo for music and its glorious. Thank you!
I use LFE+MAIN in my setup and it works pretty well in my case. My HT setup is severely constrained when it comes to speaker placement since we went to the " build in" route for WAF reasons in the great room. ( my music only system does not have that issue) My LCR's ( JBL Studio S series) are built in to a massive entertainment center and I am using a single sub ( a 4 X 15" Infinite Baffle system in a manifold array) that is corner loaded firing through a floor grate. A Mini DSP is a must with this arrangement to EQ the sub and I use the average of the 3 main seats to setup EQ. What I get from running full range is that midbass, which is localizable with my right speaker being 11 ft away from the sub, and 5 feet up stays in the right spatial location and does not get pulled to the left. It is really apparent on something like the long drum solo in Chicago's concert version of " I'm a Man". Each system has unique constraints and everyone owes it to themselves to use REW to figure out what works best overall for their setup.
You can't EQ the mains and the SUB as one, because if you test the sub channel only, this will be wrong. What you have to do is calibrate the sub or subs perfectly. Then you have to run the stereo channels out to a MiniDSP also, then calibrate those perfectly. Then time aligh the mains and the subs. I use LFE plus main and get a positive response. I time aligned first using audessey, then turned it off after that. It does great job of time aligning. I use pure direct because it has much better soundquality, and lfe plus main allowed me to use subs in 2.0 music. I use it for movies too in pure direct and the sound is excellent. However, I'd love to get some more or a larger Mini DSP so I can use Room EQ for all my speakers and keep the sound quality of pure direct. Then just time align the speakers for a positive response.
Should I use it? Hell yeah 🤪 I am the guy who does a lot of things "wrong" acording to most advice, and get better results doing it 🤪 I do have fronts and centers (yes, two towers behind the screen 1.3 meters apart, no combfiltering or issues apart from great sound🤣), set to large. I do have external amps for all speakers in large (300 watts each channel). REW, MiniDSP is in use.... Yes, going this way is more complicated, but when it gets right, it is so much better than with the sound devided. The sound is more uniform and seamless, fuller, yet more detailed...(fronts and center measure down to 22 and 25 hz almost flat). Your advice is sound though....for most people. It is way easier to get subs/ fronts to play well together when not playing the same signal. I have however, not even once, gotten better results from having fronts as small...btw, LFE+Main often mean that the reciever sends bass to ALL speakers in large and sub (npt just L&R). Both of mine are like that at least😊 Great video as always, thanks mate 😊
Your channel and home theatre guru are the only 2 channels are not selling us anything. Learning a lot from your channel thank you and keep it going. Measurements tuning etc is all that I want to learn.
I've been plagued with bass that just didn't sound right for months now. I've glossed over the 'Sub+main' setting a few times on my new Marantz receiver and I never gave it a second thought. Anyway, I just switched it to 'Sub' and boom! The bass in my front room has never sounded so good! Thankyou so much dude!
To be clear then, if your speakers are set to small 80Hz crossover AND you have LFE+Main active, the LFE+Main setting will do nothing? E.g. have Sam en result as small + LFE? Is this something that can be tested? I have a Denon x-series
Denon will allow LFE+MAIN even when speakers are set to small. It does not send the LFE or any sub crossover frequency to to small mains, but it when playing a x.1 signal (with 0.1 LFE), both the LFE and the lower freq range of the mains, are sent to the subwoofer, otherwise, only the LFE is sent to the subwoofer. For small main speakers, you better turn LFE+Mains on actually...
Confusing, but true. To get rid of destructive interference issues between subs an mains, I'd set subwoofer mode to LFE, the main speakers to small and choose best fitting main HPF frequency. One thing I heard in this context, and what i think is wrong: LFE signal will never be routed to the mains, if there is a subwoofer channel enabled.
I run 13 speakers set at small "Atmos configuration" All are Klipsch 6.5" drivers with dual SVS SB 16 subs. The life + main set at 80hz so far gives the best sound.
@@jacobsteele7138 "Small" setting activates both LPF (for sub) and HPF (for mains). LFE+MAIN matters only when main speakers are set "Large" i.e. full range. (With Denon and Marantz AVRs. -I'm not sure how Sony, Yamaha etc. do it.)
I have rf7iii and rc64iii powered by emotiva xpa-dr3. Dual pb3000. I set the towers and rc64iii to full, 80hz, lfe+main. What would I be doing by using this feature. Large instead of small, and lfe+main instead of lfe. I just want the full potential being used by my rf7iii and rc64iii and not taking the potential that my dual pb3000 have
I have an unrelated question and I'm wondering if you or someone else can help. I bought a very large JBL sub that is just awesome. The only issue is that I have very limited space for it. I know it's not optimal, but can I put the sub between the L & R? I have a 58" wall where my TV hangs. Down below is a 25" shelf unit upon which my center speaker and receiver sit. My L & R speakers are on stands on either side of the table. So basically I have everything crammed on a 58" wall. I wanted to put the sub under my end table, but it's too tall. I could put it on the opposite wall facing the TV, but I'm not crazy about a sub being right out there like a piece of furniture. I prefer it to be out of the way a bit. Thanks for any feedback!
What about when u run Def tech powered woofer 8020s towers pre amped? Lfe only? Small or LG? I'm running two good subs with a Marantz avr. Confusing. Lol
By default I set all speakers to small UNTIL I get a chance to measure them with REW and see how they are in-room. Unfortunately it’s not a simple answer as each room and speaker will be different, and without measurements you’re basically taking shots in the dark. If you haven’t invested in a cheap measurement microphone (cheap relative to the cost of your system and speakers/subs) then I’d highly recommend it even if you only use it occasionally. It’s always nice to confirm what you’re hearing with actual data as opposed to just guessing, and at the same time it allows you to know the compromises you make to get your system to sound “good” to your own ears.
@@HomeTheaterGamer my marantz has the microphone and audessey . is this what you mean.? i just didnt know if using a seperate amp to power the main speakers made a difference .....again the woofers in the towers are self amped.
@@Dooguy no worries! I was actually talking about something like a UMIK-1 measurement microphone, which is a USB mic that interfaces with Room EQ Wizard (aka REW) on a PC or Mac and allows you to measure the response of your speakers. I've made some video tutorials on that stuff if you're interested.
@@HomeTheaterGamer For anything else than music, I'd set 5.1, 7.1 etc. "Small". Especially with a powerful active sub(s). But I use "Large" setting with my quite large 3-way speakers, since I'm almost done with movies these days. I like to add some low bass with rock/heavy music, 2.1.
I’ve been looking at getting the new Definitive Technologies DM70’s for my mains and the DM30 center channel along with two SVS subs a PB 2000 & PB 1000 I’m using the Denon X4800H and I’m not sure if I should use LFE+Main since the speakers have their own powered subs built in or cross them over @40hrtz?
That's a difficult question to answer because it depends on a few different factors (your room included since the room has more impact on the bass than you might realize). My short, generalized answer would be to NOT use LFE+Main and to crossover somewhere between 40Hz and 80Hz. LFE+Main is prone to cause bass issues and nulls if not setup properly and the lack of a phase adjustment on the DM70 and DM30 (or actual subwoofer input on the speakers) means that it will be extremely difficult or even impossible to get them to play nicely with your subwoofers. I think 40Hz is a great starting point for the crossover but don't be afraid to raise to 60Hz or 80Hz. Your room plays a role here too and it may hurt performance having it set to 40Hz. If you have the money and time, it is definitely worth investing in a measurement microphone and learning Room EQ Wizard to get the most out of your system overall.
While the recommendation to usually not use LFE+Main seems right, isn't your (and many others') explanation kinda missing the point (or, of course, I could also be completely wrong)? The LFE+Main setting shouldn't be used to create _louder_ bass, right? just like two subwoofers wouldn't primarily be used to make things louder. If you already have dual (or more) subwoofers, and they're perfectly aligned with REW and dealing with all the room modes and nulls and so, sure, there's absolutely no point to do LFE+Main. But if you only have one subwoofer, with LFE+Main you at least have a _chance_ to do alignment and to fix room issues. If you'd do a video where you remove your MiniDSP, and connect just one subwoofer directly into the AVR, and _then_ try to align and eq the subwoofer, perhaps the result would be less disappointing.
I have a question about having very little bass when listening to music on receivers. I've had a few onkyo receivers and whenever I wanna listen to music through yt or the sort I just don't get that low end boom even though I'm rocking dual pb2000 pros. Even with my previous subwoofers over the years, I just always got a lackluster bass response when listening to music. Movies work just fine giving me some nice heart pounding bass so it can't be a problem with the subs themselves. I read somewhere that enabling lfe+mains will give me back the bass I'm missing in music. Don't have time to test it out yet but does anyone have any kind of solution to my problem? I can't be the only one that's noticed this.
@@thelonestranger777 kraken is probably correct. I've found with Audyssey that it sets my bookshelf speakers to large and I have to fix it myself after running room correction. I wouldn't be surprised if MCACC did the same. I looked up a random Onkyo AVR and under the menus, you'd go speaker -> crossover and set all your speakers to 80hz or higher. What's probably happening is that your set to full band (large) for your fronts meaning when you send a 2.0 signal (like music) nothing is being routed to the subwoofer because you have the AVR set to send the full frequency band to the front LR whereas with it set to 80hz (small) it will be sending some of that 2.0 signal to the subs.
@@TylerStout Thanks for the advice but again, that's not it sadly. I definitely set my crossovers every single time I ran room correction or changed anything about my setup. I recently upgraded so I'm in the process of setting everything up again. I'm wondering if I should just move on from onkyo receivers and get a Marantz or denon now....
@@thelonestranger777 It's possible your room correction messed up in terms of settings your distances or you need to tweak the phase on the subs so they are aligned and currently you have a big suck out at the crossover. Another thing I ran into was that my dual sub configuration was more a slightly refined single sub because I had them poorly placed so they both had nulls at the same spots pretty much defeating the purpose. Without measurements it's really hard to say what's going on. A UMIK-1 is relatively cheap in the grand scheme of HT world and would show you exactly what's happening. MCACC as a whole isn't really great which is why I'm excited that Onkyo is adding Dirac Live to their higher end models. Moving to an AVR with Audyssey or even YPAO would give you better results than MCACC but not Dirac. However with Denon/Marantz I feel you need the $20 app to get the best sound out of them.
@@TylerStout Well I do have a minidsp and a umik1 and had good results placing my subs and calibrating them as best I could. But this problem persisted well before I got the minidsp. It's literally only whenever I listen to music that it has issues. I'll do more testing today and see if I can pin point why that is.
Nice setting with music, if subwoofer isn't large or very powerful. Even a small, old 6,5" sub can add some nice low bass with quite large main speakers.
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Thank you for this video. I'm a recording engineer and I use a Denon receiver in my living room and I had no idea what they meant by LFE+MAIN and "Doubled Bass" would have made so much more sense. I never could get the bass right in my living room despite a London Acoustics sound treatment. It sounded large and thick, but not accurate and my floor-standing front L/R speakers (both with 8" drivers) were throwing like mad. I thought LFE only would undo my crossovers but I was pleasantly surprised that it also incorporates my crossover settings to the sub along with preserving the LFE 120hz movie track. I adjusted the crossover to what hit the room nicely (60hz on front L/R speakers that are rated down to 32hz with articulation down below 40hz being questionable) It now sounds GREAT and the bass is super accurate and can even jump scare you if content throws a low frequency at you from nowhere. I use the same crossover settings and LFE mode in stereo for music and its glorious. Thank you!
Between you and Youthman that's all I need!!
I use LFE+MAIN in my setup and it works pretty well in my case. My HT setup is severely constrained when it comes to speaker placement since we went to the " build in" route for WAF reasons in the great room. ( my music only system does not have that issue)
My LCR's ( JBL Studio S series) are built in to a massive entertainment center and I am using a single sub ( a 4 X 15" Infinite Baffle system in a manifold array) that is corner loaded firing through a floor grate.
A Mini DSP is a must with this arrangement to EQ the sub and I use the average of the 3 main seats to setup EQ.
What I get from running full range is that midbass, which is localizable with my right speaker being 11 ft away from the sub, and 5 feet up stays in the right spatial location and does not get pulled to the left. It is really apparent on something like the long drum solo in Chicago's concert version of " I'm a Man".
Each system has unique constraints and everyone owes it to themselves to use REW to figure out what works best overall for their setup.
You can't EQ the mains and the SUB as one, because if you test the sub channel only, this will be wrong. What you have to do is calibrate the sub or subs perfectly. Then you have to run the stereo channels out to a MiniDSP also, then calibrate those perfectly. Then time aligh the mains and the subs. I use LFE plus main and get a positive response. I time aligned first using audessey, then turned it off after that. It does great job of time aligning.
I use pure direct because it has much better soundquality, and lfe plus main allowed me to use subs in 2.0 music. I use it for movies too in pure direct and the sound is excellent. However, I'd love to get some more or a larger Mini DSP so I can use Room EQ for all my speakers and keep the sound quality of pure direct. Then just time align the speakers for a positive response.
Should I use it? Hell yeah 🤪
I am the guy who does a lot of things "wrong" acording to most advice, and get better results doing it 🤪
I do have fronts and centers (yes, two towers behind the screen 1.3 meters apart, no combfiltering or issues apart from great sound🤣), set to large. I do have external amps for all speakers in large (300 watts each channel). REW, MiniDSP is in use....
Yes, going this way is more complicated, but when it gets right, it is so much better than with the sound devided. The sound is more uniform and seamless, fuller, yet more detailed...(fronts and center measure down to 22 and 25 hz almost flat).
Your advice is sound though....for most people. It is way easier to get subs/ fronts to play well together when not playing the same signal.
I have however, not even once, gotten better results from having fronts as small...btw, LFE+Main often mean that the reciever sends bass to ALL speakers in large and sub (npt just L&R).
Both of mine are like that at least😊
Great video as always, thanks mate 😊
Your channel and home theatre guru are the only 2 channels are not selling us anything. Learning a lot from your channel thank you and keep it going. Measurements tuning etc is all that I want to learn.
I've been plagued with bass that just didn't sound right for months now. I've glossed over the 'Sub+main' setting a few times on my new Marantz receiver and I never gave it a second thought. Anyway, I just switched it to 'Sub' and boom! The bass in my front room has never sounded so good! Thankyou so much dude!
I got medium size tower speakers for the front and the center is big to, should I use full band or use a crossover at 60 or 80 Hz?
To be clear then, if your speakers are set to small 80Hz crossover AND you have LFE+Main active, the LFE+Main setting will do nothing? E.g. have Sam en result as small + LFE? Is this something that can be tested? I have a Denon x-series
Denon will allow LFE+MAIN even when speakers are set to small. It does not send the LFE or any sub crossover frequency to to small mains, but it when playing a x.1 signal (with 0.1 LFE), both the LFE and the lower freq range of the mains, are sent to the subwoofer, otherwise, only the LFE is sent to the subwoofer. For small main speakers, you better turn LFE+Mains on actually...
The second part of your comment is incorrect. What you described is covered by the LFE setting (not the LFE+Main)
Confusing, but true. To get rid of destructive interference issues between subs an mains, I'd set subwoofer mode to LFE, the main speakers to small and choose best fitting main HPF frequency.
One thing I heard in this context, and what i think is wrong: LFE signal will never be routed to the mains, if there is a subwoofer channel enabled.
I run 13 speakers set at small "Atmos configuration" All are Klipsch 6.5" drivers with dual SVS SB 16 subs. The life + main set at 80hz so far gives the best sound.
@@jacobsteele7138 "Small" setting activates both LPF (for sub) and HPF (for mains). LFE+MAIN matters only when main speakers are set "Large" i.e. full range. (With Denon and Marantz AVRs. -I'm not sure how Sony, Yamaha etc. do it.)
@@pekkatervala8476 Your right. Thanks.
Mine has main or main / sub which one shall i use plz?
I have rf7iii and rc64iii powered by emotiva xpa-dr3. Dual pb3000. I set the towers and rc64iii to full, 80hz, lfe+main. What would I be doing by using this feature. Large instead of small, and lfe+main instead of lfe. I just want the full potential being used by my rf7iii and rc64iii and not taking the potential that my dual pb3000 have
There is only one way to know for sure what works best in your room...REW or similar.
I have an unrelated question and I'm wondering if you or someone else can help. I bought a very large JBL sub that is just awesome. The only issue is that I have very limited space for it. I know it's not optimal, but can I put the sub between the L & R? I have a 58" wall where my TV hangs. Down below is a 25" shelf unit upon which my center speaker and receiver sit. My L & R speakers are on stands on either side of the table. So basically I have everything crammed on a 58" wall. I wanted to put the sub under my end table, but it's too tall. I could put it on the opposite wall facing the TV, but I'm not crazy about a sub being right out there like a piece of furniture. I prefer it to be out of the way a bit. Thanks for any feedback!
Could you do a review to the SVS SB-1000 Pro too? Would be nice to hear, if it really sounds "bigger" than other sealed subs (while watching movies)
Already one video ahead of you! 😁 ruclips.net/video/b5mYEGXLCJE/видео.html
I like your videos I wish though you'd link the previous videos you always mention. But great videos.
What about when u run Def tech powered woofer 8020s towers pre amped? Lfe only? Small or LG?
I'm running two good subs with a Marantz avr. Confusing. Lol
By default I set all speakers to small UNTIL I get a chance to measure them with REW and see how they are in-room. Unfortunately it’s not a simple answer as each room and speaker will be different, and without measurements you’re basically taking shots in the dark. If you haven’t invested in a cheap measurement microphone (cheap relative to the cost of your system and speakers/subs) then I’d highly recommend it even if you only use it occasionally. It’s always nice to confirm what you’re hearing with actual data as opposed to just guessing, and at the same time it allows you to know the compromises you make to get your system to sound “good” to your own ears.
@@HomeTheaterGamer my marantz has the microphone and audessey . is this what you mean.? i just didnt know if using a seperate amp to power the main speakers made a difference .....again the woofers in the towers are self amped.
@@Dooguy no worries! I was actually talking about something like a UMIK-1 measurement microphone, which is a USB mic that interfaces with Room EQ Wizard (aka REW) on a PC or Mac and allows you to measure the response of your speakers. I've made some video tutorials on that stuff if you're interested.
@@HomeTheaterGamer thank u
@@HomeTheaterGamer For anything else than music, I'd set 5.1, 7.1 etc. "Small". Especially with a powerful active sub(s). But I use "Large" setting with my quite large 3-way speakers, since I'm almost done with movies these days. I like to add some low bass with rock/heavy music, 2.1.
I’ve been looking at getting the new Definitive Technologies DM70’s for my mains and the DM30 center channel along with two SVS subs a PB 2000 & PB 1000 I’m using the Denon X4800H and I’m not sure if I should use LFE+Main since the speakers have their own powered subs built in or cross them over @40hrtz?
That's a difficult question to answer because it depends on a few different factors (your room included since the room has more impact on the bass than you might realize). My short, generalized answer would be to NOT use LFE+Main and to crossover somewhere between 40Hz and 80Hz. LFE+Main is prone to cause bass issues and nulls if not setup properly and the lack of a phase adjustment on the DM70 and DM30 (or actual subwoofer input on the speakers) means that it will be extremely difficult or even impossible to get them to play nicely with your subwoofers.
I think 40Hz is a great starting point for the crossover but don't be afraid to raise to 60Hz or 80Hz. Your room plays a role here too and it may hurt performance having it set to 40Hz. If you have the money and time, it is definitely worth investing in a measurement microphone and learning Room EQ Wizard to get the most out of your system overall.
While the recommendation to usually not use LFE+Main seems right, isn't your (and many others') explanation kinda missing the point (or, of course, I could also be completely wrong)? The LFE+Main setting shouldn't be used to create _louder_ bass, right? just like two subwoofers wouldn't primarily be used to make things louder. If you already have dual (or more) subwoofers, and they're perfectly aligned with REW and dealing with all the room modes and nulls and so, sure, there's absolutely no point to do LFE+Main. But if you only have one subwoofer, with LFE+Main you at least have a _chance_ to do alignment and to fix room issues. If you'd do a video where you remove your MiniDSP, and connect just one subwoofer directly into the AVR, and _then_ try to align and eq the subwoofer, perhaps the result would be less disappointing.
Is there any reason why REL subscribes to this ? 🤔
Depends?
Somehow contrary to science, personally I always am biased to use it. But I keep going back and forth all the time. 🤔
I have a question about having very little bass when listening to music on receivers. I've had a few onkyo receivers and whenever I wanna listen to music through yt or the sort I just don't get that low end boom even though I'm rocking dual pb2000 pros. Even with my previous subwoofers over the years, I just always got a lackluster bass response when listening to music. Movies work just fine giving me some nice heart pounding bass so it can't be a problem with the subs themselves.
I read somewhere that enabling lfe+mains will give me back the bass I'm missing in music. Don't have time to test it out yet but does anyone have any kind of solution to my problem?
I can't be the only one that's noticed this.
@@kraken2109 I honestly never seen that option on any of my onkyo receivers. I guess they automatically get set to small when you have crossovers on.
@@thelonestranger777 kraken is probably correct. I've found with Audyssey that it sets my bookshelf speakers to large and I have to fix it myself after running room correction. I wouldn't be surprised if MCACC did the same. I looked up a random Onkyo AVR and under the menus, you'd go speaker -> crossover and set all your speakers to 80hz or higher. What's probably happening is that your set to full band (large) for your fronts meaning when you send a 2.0 signal (like music) nothing is being routed to the subwoofer because you have the AVR set to send the full frequency band to the front LR whereas with it set to 80hz (small) it will be sending some of that 2.0 signal to the subs.
@@TylerStout Thanks for the advice but again, that's not it sadly. I definitely set my crossovers every single time I ran room correction or changed anything about my setup. I recently upgraded so I'm in the process of setting everything up again.
I'm wondering if I should just move on from onkyo receivers and get a Marantz or denon now....
@@thelonestranger777 It's possible your room correction messed up in terms of settings your distances or you need to tweak the phase on the subs so they are aligned and currently you have a big suck out at the crossover. Another thing I ran into was that my dual sub configuration was more a slightly refined single sub because I had them poorly placed so they both had nulls at the same spots pretty much defeating the purpose. Without measurements it's really hard to say what's going on. A UMIK-1 is relatively cheap in the grand scheme of HT world and would show you exactly what's happening. MCACC as a whole isn't really great which is why I'm excited that Onkyo is adding Dirac Live to their higher end models. Moving to an AVR with Audyssey or even YPAO would give you better results than MCACC but not Dirac. However with Denon/Marantz I feel you need the $20 app to get the best sound out of them.
@@TylerStout Well I do have a minidsp and a umik1 and had good results placing my subs and calibrating them as best I could. But this problem persisted well before I got the minidsp.
It's literally only whenever I listen to music that it has issues. I'll do more testing today and see if I can pin point why that is.
✅✅✅✅
Yes so you can get full range..
Bass sound better in my towers..
true!
Nice setting with music, if subwoofer isn't large or very powerful. Even a small, old 6,5" sub can add some nice low bass with quite large main speakers.
NO.