Great videos. However, I want to point out what Fred said and your explanation were different. The distinction that Fred made was "unless otherwise specified." A port less than 24" is a point of cover and can be engaged with vertical OR horizontal cover, unless the stage description specifically states otherwise (vertical cover/horizontal cover). Therefore a competitor may slice the pie, or engage near too far if it is not designated.
I have to agree with Aaron. Great video but Rule 3.5.3 is only pointing out engagement over or under Horizontal cover and not a length of a window less than 24 inches. Actually at Worlds last year stage 11 was briefed as any order because the window was too small for the SO or shooter to have a proper look. It’s been a confusing call at many matches so I have gone with shooters call as they did at worlds.
Thanks for the video. I have two questions. 1) where can I find the reference to 24" in the rulebook? 2) Do you know if anyone has addressed the conflict between the 2024 rulebook saying it has to fit the box and make weight, with no add on weights that serve no other purpose; VS the 2023 match administration book that still says to check for brass magwells.? Any input would be appreciated. Thanks.
6.3.5 will cover the 24” windows. As well as our Area Coordinator sharing match information and references. As for your weight question, no specific insight on that conversation other than as you see specifically, there is a gun box, gun weight and barrel length that are required. I’m still researching any additional weighting that may or may not be permitted and will get back with you as soon as I do.
My range (Nampa R&G) has walls with top to bottom gaps. Literally, there is no horizontal cover. I saw a similar situation at 1:16 in your video, and a black barrel was used to create hard cover. I'm thinking of countering range lawyers arguing that a stage has to be thrown out because horizontal cover was not provided, unless the lower part of the gap in our walls is blocked by a black barrel, or merely stapling some cardboard targets over the lower portion, and these would be designated hard cover. Or, am I overthinking the whole thing? As you noted, if a "port" is less than 24", the fault line may be omitted, and targets are shot in the open, near to far. In that case, arguably ands within the rules, horizontal cover is not required, and is irrelevant. Use it only if you want to.
This came up in local match yesterday, the objector referred me to this video, I’m the MD. I don’t see how “3.5.3 Horizontal Cover requires the shooter to engage targets over or under the (PoC) Position of Cover.” addresses a window of less than 24”. Nor do I understand how a 23” tall, 23” wide window without a fault line becomes horizontal cover. No rule states that. Our window was about 18” tall and 8” wide, first visible target distant, closer target unseen until you moved out from the vertical cover. I understand no PE for cover violation because no fault line, but do not understand why a PE would be incorrect for failure in using tactical priority. Please clarify with a rule citation that supports the statements in the video. The other rule is 6.3.5 Positions of Cover at windows 24” or more must be marked with fault lines. Thank you. Ben B. A30195
Also curious if the POC is named as horizontal cover in WSD that would indicate it as low cover, therefore must take a knee. In our case it probably would have been correct.
However, 3.5.3 just allows the shooter to cross, reload and engage as if targets are in the open, therefore near to far because of no fault line. The near target in this case even through not seen is still the first target to be engaged.
Yes, I do NOT understand how you extrapolate “cross, reload and engage as if targets are in the open” from: “3.5.3 Horizontal Cover requires the shooter to engage targets over or under the (PoC) Position of Cover.”
So you can cross a window that is less than 24" wide without engaging all the targets through it? Or does it just mean you can shoot from anywhere around the window including both sides? Not sure what was meant when the term "crossing" was used in the video.
If the MD states the lower boarder of the window is considered low cover, yes. You may go to the right, left of stand in front of it before engaging targets from near to far. I hope this helps.
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I wish you do videos focused on help prep for the CSO test? Thanks
That a tough one…
That would be interesting to see. Probably would need to be a series of videos.
@@thepianomaster123 yes it would!
Great videos. However, I want to point out what Fred said and your explanation were different.
The distinction that Fred made was "unless otherwise specified."
A port less than 24" is a point of cover and can be engaged with vertical OR horizontal cover, unless the stage description specifically states otherwise (vertical cover/horizontal cover).
Therefore a competitor may slice the pie, or engage near too far if it is not designated.
Great point. Thank you for you input. Appreciate it.
I have to agree with Aaron. Great video but Rule 3.5.3 is only pointing out engagement over or under Horizontal cover and not a length of a window less than 24 inches. Actually at Worlds last year stage 11 was briefed as any order because the window was too small for the SO or shooter to have a proper look. It’s been a confusing call at many matches so I have gone with shooters call as they did at worlds.
@@frankscalise1297 thank you so much for your thoughts Frank!
Thanks for the video. I have two questions. 1) where can I find the reference to 24" in the rulebook? 2) Do you know if anyone has addressed the conflict between the 2024 rulebook saying it has to fit the box and make weight, with no add on weights that serve no other purpose; VS the 2023 match administration book that still says to check for brass magwells.? Any input would be appreciated. Thanks.
6.3.5 will cover the 24” windows. As well as our Area Coordinator sharing match information and references. As for your weight question, no specific insight on that conversation other than as you see specifically, there is a gun box, gun weight and barrel length that are required. I’m still researching any additional weighting that may or may not be permitted and will get back with you as soon as I do.
Excellent video and again very smooth and great informative video!!!!!!
Thank you so much William
My range (Nampa R&G) has walls with top to bottom gaps. Literally, there is no horizontal cover. I saw a similar situation at 1:16 in your video, and a black barrel was used to create hard cover. I'm thinking of countering range lawyers arguing that a stage has to be thrown out because horizontal cover was not provided, unless the lower part of the gap in our walls is blocked by a black barrel, or merely stapling some cardboard targets over the lower portion, and these would be designated hard cover. Or, am I overthinking the whole thing? As you noted, if a "port" is less than 24", the fault line may be omitted, and targets are shot in the open, near to far. In that case, arguably ands within the rules, horizontal cover is not required, and is irrelevant. Use it only if you want to.
Well said James! In the spirit of safety and the space accessible, do the best that is possible. Thank you for your thoughts.
This came up in local match yesterday, the objector referred me to this video, I’m the MD. I don’t see how “3.5.3 Horizontal Cover requires the shooter to engage targets over or under the (PoC) Position of Cover.” addresses a window of less than 24”. Nor do I understand how a 23” tall, 23” wide window without a fault line becomes horizontal cover. No rule states that. Our window was about 18” tall and 8” wide, first visible target distant, closer target unseen until you moved out from the vertical cover. I understand no PE for cover violation because no fault line, but do not understand why a PE would be incorrect for failure in using tactical priority. Please clarify with a rule citation that supports the statements in the video.
The other rule is 6.3.5 Positions of Cover at windows 24” or more must be marked with fault lines.
Thank you.
Ben B.
A30195
Also curious if the POC is named as horizontal cover in WSD that would indicate it as low cover, therefore must take a knee. In our case it probably would have been correct.
Any video or pictures of the stage, so I may help walk you through this and better clarify your concerns?
However, 3.5.3 just allows the shooter to cross, reload and engage as if targets are in the open, therefore near to far because of no fault line. The near target in this case even through not seen is still the first target to be engaged.
Yes, I do NOT understand how you extrapolate “cross, reload and engage as if targets are in the open” from:
“3.5.3 Horizontal Cover requires the shooter to engage targets over or under the (PoC) Position of Cover.”
I will see if I can get your email or contact info from IDPA Members page. This RUclips thread is not ideal forum.
So you can cross a window that is less than 24" wide without engaging all the targets through it? Or does it just mean you can shoot from anywhere around the window including both sides? Not sure what was meant when the term "crossing" was used in the video.
If the MD states the lower boarder of the window is considered low cover, yes. You may go to the right, left of stand in front of it before engaging targets from near to far. I hope this helps.