Thanks for the video! ^_^ Also... Timestamps! World is better with them! :) 0:00:00 Intro 0:00:33 Principle 1: Don't tune prematurely 0:02:29 Principle 2: No "best" strategy 0:04:42 Principle 3: Lumps & Bumps 0:07:28 Principle 4: Start "harsh" 0:10:14 Principle 5: The ultimate resource 0:14:35 Nice music outro I always like to have them, so when I re-watch the video later, I can go exactly where I want.
@@IndieGameClinic Oh, I see, thanks! ^^ (Silly me, I didn't even try to read the description looking for them, I just thought RUclips would show them if they were there XD)
@@IndieGameClinicI think it may be because you didn't put a timestamp starting at 00:00 at the beginning. Your first timestamp is at 00:40, so RUclips doesn't know what chapter to put from 00:00 to 00:40.
It's always surprised me how many people struggle to understand that the most optimal way of doing something is typically the default way of doing something.
A minor technical thing for this video: I feel it would really benefit from chapters. If you don't know, you can add them by having a series of lines in your description where the first one starts with 0:00 and then every following line has a different time, and then each chapter will be titled what you put in the rest of that line of the description
Yeah I was thinking of Oblivion as I said it! I remember one playthrough where I didn't go to Kvatch for about twenty levels and then went there and found tons of frost atronachs, haha!
Thanks for sharing this! One thing I learned about balancing is that it puts player in certain state or condition. The challenge is to pick proper state/condition for player to enjoy. This video adds more information in picking proper states.
I see a lot of devs making big blunders about balance, their main idea is to make choices equal in power and stuff like that when it's more like about making so that player choices are as fun as possible. To me balance it's about optimization, making so the choices at disposal are fun and satisfying, players want to use their creativity and skill to do awesome stuff and feel good about it and that's what balance is: the part of game design that makes sure players can live those moments as much as possible and make sure the opposite doesn't happen. I love for example TF2, where some items variants are tuned in a way that changes the way you play even if the weapon is basically the same, some malus makes you avoid some playstyles and some bonus make you focus in others and a player can find new ways to play each class and have his personal strategies and ways to play according to the situation, that's why so many people still play that game after all this time
This reminds me of a quote, I heard it years ago and don't remember where I heard it, let alone who it was attributed to, but I think about it a lot: "If given the chance, players will optimize all the fun out of the game"
Exactly, one of the reasons that made imbalance unfun was the reduction of options into one or a few most viable ones. Balancing by making things barely different basically does the same
One of the main concept that to me is key to understand balance is Orthogonal Design, there's a video here on RUclips that explains it very well, the idea is that choices have to be different enough to not be comparable and that can be combined to make cool stuff that is unique. I like for example Dead by Daylight, you play a killer with his specific power (or survivor, instead of a power you can have tools) but you can choose from (unlockable) perks available to all the killer to create unique playstiles and build, unfortunately the game is not really well made and players tend to use "optimised builds" but the sistem is great: combining unique powers and passive perks with bonuses that only trigger in specific situations promoting unique playstiles, to me is worth studying the same way tf2 is.
While I agree with the principle that there should be no best strategy, there is almost always a meta in every game I've ever played. My game project is sort of a spectacle fighter like DMC (although with a lot of differences such as with exploration and sense of mystery and finding secrets). I can't tell if that's more in the weeds compared to what you were saying, but if not, I'm not sure how to avoid having a combat meta without also creating a system where choice feels pointless because everything has the same flat amount of efficacy. Just curious as to what your thoughts are there
@@Paul_Ward I think though, when it comes to a lot of esports, part of the meta is the game of working out what the best thing is, which is a big game in itself - and something the fans enjoy. But you need a lot of difference and complexity to get there in the first place.
Regarding the combat, I think you're missing the purpose of DMC a bit here. The point of DMC is not to optimize a way to win, it's winning with style. If you just want to win, royal guard and Vergil's super moves deal a ton of damage, but that's not what people usually play DMC for, they play it for player expression. DMC is a weird game that's basically made to be a canvas you can paint on using your combos masked as an action adventure game.
@matheuslima4093 while I disagree with your thoughts on DMC (it is designed to promote players varying their attacks to maximise a score, but that high score chasing is still something a tiny minority engage in as opposed to simply getting to the end of the game), try not to focus on that one game specifically too much. My point was and is that if you have a single best item for using in a game, people will get that best item and then won't have any reason to explore or venture for anything else. If there is a best choice, then that is the only choice. Conversely, if everything is exactly as efficient as everything else, then there is no difference in choice, and so the choice is pointless. I was wondering what solutions there might be to avoid those pitfalls that I might not have already considered
Thanks for the video. Would be nice if you could talk about game scope and planning. During my 10 years of gamedev, I 'd been rescoping and replanning so many times for my main projects. And it's still too much. The most I could finished were game jam with 10 days deadline. And as expected, these games are just too simple and can't be sell. They're mostly just simple mechanics and stupid attempts to make the game distinct so it's not just another tech demo. Right now the expected deadline is approaching and I'm still nowhere near finish, not even near the vertical slice or even prototype. One of reasons would be I lost the direction for the game. It used to be clear the day I planned, and then it's just lost despite I wrote down everything. Then I'm just confused. I wanted to change the direction into this or that because I'm afraid the game will not be enough to put on steam. I feels like my predecessors made so much better games than the one I'm making. I'm trying to convince myself that I'm a lone person without any fund to invest, so it's expected to have lower quality than the games that others published. I know that I gotta push through this project and finally publish my first steam game anyway, so it's fine for now. But it'd be nice if I have some more insight, so that my next projects would be better than this. I wouldn't want to stress myself out like this all over again in the future.
I will try and focus on this the next time I do a "tips" video like this one. I think making sure you work with someone else can be helpful for staying on track and making sure you don't keep changing direction. Collaboration can help with accountability.
@@IndieGameClinic to be clear it's not really the changing direction problem, more like the set direction problem. it's like I'm looking through the smoke and just say go to that direction. as for collab, I tried to get accountability collab but nobody so far could match my energy so they're all failed. direct collab is impossible since I can do everything and not good at anything, my position would be weird if I'm not the boss that hire employees, and I can't afford this option.
I’m not sure what this is in reference to, but I don’t really pay much attention to these companies or anything they make. I do not think time wasting grind design is an issue exclusive to that sector though.
I have a parasocial relationship with a man in the computer and I enjoyed watching this video and leaving a user engagement comment.
Still not sure why the timestamps in my description only transfer to the timeline sometimes??
Early tuning aka premature exactuation
Thanks for the video! ^_^
Also... Timestamps! World is better with them! :)
0:00:00 Intro
0:00:33 Principle 1: Don't tune prematurely
0:02:29 Principle 2: No "best" strategy
0:04:42 Principle 3: Lumps & Bumps
0:07:28 Principle 4: Start "harsh"
0:10:14 Principle 5: The ultimate resource
0:14:35 Nice music outro
I always like to have them, so when I re-watch the video later, I can go exactly where I want.
They’re in the description; I think it takes a while for them to appear on the timeline
@@IndieGameClinic Oh, I see, thanks! ^^ (Silly me, I didn't even try to read the description looking for them, I just thought RUclips would show them if they were there XD)
@@IndieGameClinicI think it may be because you didn't put a timestamp starting at 00:00 at the beginning. Your first timestamp is at 00:40, so RUclips doesn't know what chapter to put from 00:00 to 00:40.
It's always surprised me how many people struggle to understand that the most optimal way of doing something is typically the default way of doing something.
4:11
wing condition 😎
@@sooooooooDark 🪽
A minor technical thing for this video: I feel it would really benefit from chapters. If you don't know, you can add them by having a series of lines in your description where the first one starts with 0:00 and then every following line has a different time, and then each chapter will be titled what you put in the rest of that line of the description
@@endorb they’re in the description. For some reason there is a delay in adding them and them appearing in the timeline.
@@IndieGameClinic Oh, I see! The issue is that the first one has to be at 0:00... for some reason... so that's why they aren't there.
This is super helpful! I needed that, thank you, Joe!
(Also, at 5:26 you just casually described "TES IV: Oblivion". xD)
Yeah I was thinking of Oblivion as I said it! I remember one playthrough where I didn't go to Kvatch for about twenty levels and then went there and found tons of frost atronachs, haha!
More game developers should respect the player's time!
Well there is a market for grinding games too. But there’s also a market for crystal meth, so 🤷🏽
Thanks for sharing this! One thing I learned about balancing is that it puts player in certain state or condition. The challenge is to pick proper state/condition for player to enjoy. This video adds more information in picking proper states.
I see a lot of devs making big blunders about balance, their main idea is to make choices equal in power and stuff like that when it's more like about making so that player choices are as fun as possible.
To me balance it's about optimization, making so the choices at disposal are fun and satisfying, players want to use their creativity and skill to do awesome stuff and feel good about it and that's what balance is: the part of game design that makes sure players can live those moments as much as possible and make sure the opposite doesn't happen.
I love for example TF2, where some items variants are tuned in a way that changes the way you play even if the weapon is basically the same, some malus makes you avoid some playstyles and some bonus make you focus in others and a player can find new ways to play each class and have his personal strategies and ways to play according to the situation, that's why so many people still play that game after all this time
This reminds me of a quote, I heard it years ago and don't remember where I heard it, let alone who it was attributed to, but I think about it a lot:
"If given the chance, players will optimize all the fun out of the game"
@@endorb That quote is attributable to Soren Johnson, best known for being the lead designer of Civ 4.
Exactly, one of the reasons that made imbalance unfun was the reduction of options into one or a few most viable ones. Balancing by making things barely different basically does the same
One of the main concept that to me is key to understand balance is Orthogonal Design, there's a video here on RUclips that explains it very well, the idea is that choices have to be different enough to not be comparable and that can be combined to make cool stuff that is unique.
I like for example Dead by Daylight, you play a killer with his specific power (or survivor, instead of a power you can have tools) but you can choose from (unlockable) perks available to all the killer to create unique playstiles and build, unfortunately the game is not really well made and players tend to use "optimised builds" but the sistem is great: combining unique powers and passive perks with bonuses that only trigger in specific situations promoting unique playstiles, to me is worth studying the same way tf2 is.
Excellent video once again, Dr. Joe!
Nice musical instrument tuning analogy. Scary zooming in/leveling up analogy.
Nice one, thanks again, doctor!
Was that riff from “Misirlou” at the end there lol
@@esotericeden48 haha, it was an ⚡️attempt⚡️ at that
20% like ratio? madness.
Thanks for all the love on this one team. ❤🏥❤
While I agree with the principle that there should be no best strategy, there is almost always a meta in every game I've ever played. My game project is sort of a spectacle fighter like DMC (although with a lot of differences such as with exploration and sense of mystery and finding secrets). I can't tell if that's more in the weeds compared to what you were saying, but if not, I'm not sure how to avoid having a combat meta without also creating a system where choice feels pointless because everything has the same flat amount of efficacy. Just curious as to what your thoughts are there
@@Paul_Ward I think though, when it comes to a lot of esports, part of the meta is the game of working out what the best thing is, which is a big game in itself - and something the fans enjoy. But you need a lot of difference and complexity to get there in the first place.
Regarding the combat, I think you're missing the purpose of DMC a bit here. The point of DMC is not to optimize a way to win, it's winning with style. If you just want to win, royal guard and Vergil's super moves deal a ton of damage, but that's not what people usually play DMC for, they play it for player expression. DMC is a weird game that's basically made to be a canvas you can paint on using your combos masked as an action adventure game.
@matheuslima4093 while I disagree with your thoughts on DMC (it is designed to promote players varying their attacks to maximise a score, but that high score chasing is still something a tiny minority engage in as opposed to simply getting to the end of the game), try not to focus on that one game specifically too much. My point was and is that if you have a single best item for using in a game, people will get that best item and then won't have any reason to explore or venture for anything else. If there is a best choice, then that is the only choice. Conversely, if everything is exactly as efficient as everything else, then there is no difference in choice, and so the choice is pointless. I was wondering what solutions there might be to avoid those pitfalls that I might not have already considered
"i made a replica of you in..."
Thanks for the video.
Would be nice if you could talk about game scope and planning.
During my 10 years of gamedev, I 'd been rescoping and replanning so many times for my main projects. And it's still too much.
The most I could finished were game jam with 10 days deadline. And as expected, these games are just too simple and can't be sell. They're mostly just simple mechanics and stupid attempts to make the game distinct so it's not just another tech demo.
Right now the expected deadline is approaching and I'm still nowhere near finish, not even near the vertical slice or even prototype.
One of reasons would be I lost the direction for the game. It used to be clear the day I planned, and then it's just lost despite I wrote down everything.
Then I'm just confused. I wanted to change the direction into this or that because I'm afraid the game will not be enough to put on steam.
I feels like my predecessors made so much better games than the one I'm making.
I'm trying to convince myself that I'm a lone person without any fund to invest, so it's expected to have lower quality than the games that others published.
I know that I gotta push through this project and finally publish my first steam game anyway, so it's fine for now.
But it'd be nice if I have some more insight, so that my next projects would be better than this.
I wouldn't want to stress myself out like this all over again in the future.
I will try and focus on this the next time I do a "tips" video like this one.
I think making sure you work with someone else can be helpful for staying on track and making sure you don't keep changing direction. Collaboration can help with accountability.
@@IndieGameClinic to be clear it's not really the changing direction problem, more like the set direction problem. it's like I'm looking through the smoke and just say go to that direction. as for collab, I tried to get accountability collab but nobody so far could match my energy so they're all failed. direct collab is impossible since I can do everything and not good at anything, my position would be weird if I'm not the boss that hire employees, and I can't afford this option.
You dont know but you just got fired from EA and Ubisoft.
I’m not sure what this is in reference to, but I don’t really pay much attention to these companies or anything they make. I do not think time wasting grind design is an issue exclusive to that sector though.
video is ok
but u couldve said it all in like 4 minutes without cutting out anything important rly.. ;S
There’ll be a short for that, when I get around to it - but thanks for the feedback.