Just imagining Lu Bu doing clerical duties tickles me quite a bit 🤣. and that bit about Zhang Liao is very enlightening. given the honorable nature of the man,like you mentioned,I always assume he didn't took part in Lu Bu's desertion of Ding Yuan or rather he turned a blind eye towards it due to his closeness to Lu Bu. turns out he's in the capital when it happened. Good to know.
I'm always reminded of how Cao Cao described him as, "A boar without an original thought in his head." He might well have been a potent bodyguard or duelist but anything past that was above his ability.
Lu Bu, and probably Zhuge Liang, are historic characters that I have many doubts in their story in 'Romance' version of their 'biography', thank you for making this lore to clarify things a bit for me. Keep up the good work!
Xiahou Dun eating his own eyeball after it got pierced with an arrow mine. I wonder if that was just a rumor that was spread to scare and demoralize whoever they were at war with at the time
@@rami8896I like to think that his eye did got shot and he did ripped it out in a fit of rage. But as to the badass quote accompanying it and the eating part, I doubt that happened. Most likely he was just frothing and roaring with anger, but that makes for a poor story now would it.
Heck yeah, so excited for this series! I find the history of the Three Kingdoms absolutely amazing to learn about. The Romance is so influential that I feel it corrupts its own history, and these series are how I get my information. Thanks so much for your wonderful presentation, and teaching me so much about what is now my favourite mythology.
A negative word like "corrupt" isn't quite fitting to describe the Romance's relationship to actual history. It implies that the Romance account, being fictional, is beneath or worth less than historical records, which simply isn't true. They are valuable in their own ways. But I agree with you that the real history is fascinating to learn about :D
the novel is so well written as a work of literature, it has contributed immensely to put the three kingdoms period on the map as a well known period. So regardless of how different from history in some aspects, its contribution cannot be understated.
@@SeriousTrivia I completely agree, and I didn't intend for my comment to bemoan the existence of Romance of the Three Kingdoms - there's a reason I call it my favourite mythology. I simply mean that the popularity of it has altered how the period of history is generally perceived, much like England's King Arthur. Lu Bu is a great case study, he's generally accepted as being a peerless warrior - and yet historically he seemed to be more of a clerk with a penchant for shanking his bosses.
Some people have a natural knack for having an eye for exceptionally talented warriors. I've always held great appreciation and respect to those who were able to discern talent and value it. Ding Yuan definitely seemingly had an eye for it, but he didn't seem to have the political eye of meeting his subordinates needs and wants. Or perhaps simply cruel fate. Regardless, it's pretty crazy Ding Yuan picked out two of some of the most notable warriors in the Three Kingdoms time period, and easily had Ding Yuan not been there and had it been someone else, both Lu Bu and Zhang Liao could have been overlooked. Lu Bu was probably just a lowly foot soldier, and Zhang Liao when young served a minor official in his home commandery and from there he had many skirmishes and rebellions which he learned from in his youth and became an excellent skilled general and fighter. It was only after Ding Yuan heard of Zhang Liao's skills in battle at holding off bandits and his experience that he decided to hire him as an assistant officer. In my opinion, if Ding Yuan had not been at that post that day, we possibly would never have had Lu Bu or Zhang Liao, at least not written in history as it is, events would be totally different in so many ways. Crazy to think how much impact 1 single person can have.
My favorite part from the Novel was when Lu Bu grabbed Ji Ling by the neck and dragged him back to the negation table with Liu Bei like a child. Really shows you how powerful he must've been to be able to handle a grown-ass man in that manner.
Lu bu must have been a good enough leader for most of his men to stick with him until the very end of Liu Bei's endless wandering was not enough for people to leave him.
Somebody should've taught this man that you never bite the hand that feeds you. He was a skilled warrior, but his deceitful nature got the best of him.
Daddy Lu: Fengxian (Lu Bu’s courtesy name), one day, you’re gonna be a good and hardworking civil official Lu Bu: Shaddup! I wanna be a warrior! I wanna cut down foes and be the one who’ll rule the land! My destiny is to be the Emperor! King of all that is under Heaven! Mommy Lu: Oh, dear, looks like our son wants to be a bloodthirsty hooligan and he wants to sit on a throne! Daddy Lu: Yeah, right! He wants to sit on a throne, a throne inside a bathroom! Lu Bu: I wanna be a conqueror! I wanna rule the land and be like Xiang Yu!* *Xiang Yu is the one who feuded with Liu Bang in order to rule China and Peter Ho, a Chinese actor, played both Lu Bu and Xiang Yu in Three Kingdoms 2010 and King’s War
Hey Serious Trivia, I know Lu bu's two big feathers is his Iconic look but has Lu Bu ever historically put on a Helmet for protection from getting snip by a arrow or stab in the head? He is literally leaving his head expose.
the two big feathers are just an opera look that most games adopted...historically he never put up any feather and stuck to boring old helmets just like how his historical weapon is a boring old spear. They even found the exact spear in his tomb.
Real life Lu Bu vs Brad Pit Achilles: Achilles get cut in half by the halberd before he can yell hector. Dynasty Warrior Lu Bu vs Mythological Archilles: Lu Bu air attack him long enough to hit the angle and kill him
I mean it's a bit unfair given Lubu has basically 1000 year head start in weapon and armor tech. It's like I give you a AK47 and have you fight a Knight from the middle ages, you don't even need to be good with a gun.
mayor = head of county administrator = head of commandery (made up of multiple counties) prefect = head of province (made up of multiple commanderies) then governor was created in mid 180s on the suggestion of Liu Yan to give provinces a position with military command as while prefect was the supervisor of administrators, their job was to inspect and report back to the Imperial Court but held no military command in most instances (unless they were also given a general title most common in the case of frontier provinces) while the core military garrison command laid in the hands of administrators. Prefect and Governors then co-existed for the majority of the Three Kingdoms period.
In my memories this (province level) position was called "inspector", so I think it's just my confusion with different translations. Anyway, thank you for the detailed explanation :)
Ohh yeah, the ungodly bastard of three fathers, the assistant with untrustworthy kill assists, a military officer with questionable battle records, and above all, a basest warrior without equal! He could only score huge kills and lovely maidens, and only the bonds of his cadres of officers could attain Lü Bu’s destiny!
First off, Guan Yu is a much more successful general and shown way more personal prowess on the battlefield than Lu Bu whether it is in history or in romance. Second off, Guan Yu was deified and elevated in later generations mainly on the combination of his success on the battlefield and his character (valor, bravery, and loyalty) which Lu Bu is basically trash tier given that he betrayed pretty much every single one of his lords that he served or took him in.
he was already getting deified prior to the novel but it really ramped up officially in the Qing Dynasty when the government put their full force behind it. Prior to the novel, it was mainly the taoist and buddhist that were giving him a deified status but not officially the government (I mean it was the Yuan Dynasty at the time so the Mongols was not going to pushing for a Han deity).
@@SeriousTrivia thanks for the explanation. Why would the Qing want to officially deify Guan Yu. I thought he was the patron god of the Heaven & Earth society right? Or is that only in popular culture.
Because Lu Bu died earlier than him. Guan Yu was a humble man when Lu Bu was alive, and became an arrogant prick after he die beause he knows he's now the strongest. Every Chinese knew this lol.
Hey serious trivia. Good effort to retell the orgin of characters by historical record. Just one thing about this section that might be debatable. I don't think it's fair to say lu bu is a bad general. Per historical record, his nickname of flying general is earned while at the border. You don't earned that just by being a good fighter. He is one of the few who could trade wins with Cao cao. Admittedly during the battle yan province, cao cao isn't at his peak. But still he's not somebody who can be defeated easily. Just check yuan shu and liu bei, who aren't able to defeat him once in the early period. At one point, cao cao almost gave up. That was how bad it is (granted there are external factors as well). Likewise at xuzhou, he was able to repel liu bei. Though not at his peak, who else other than cao cao and lu bu can claim that at that stage of time? Yes, his win/loss record aren't great, but we have to consider his opponents as well. I think in actual, he is a rather capable general. Fighting prowess wise, definitely overrated. But still outstanding as per his nickname and certain acts, which are historical recorded. Also, he should be specialising in leading calvary, or at least confident at it. At his last moment, he tried to sell Cao cao the idea of him leading the calvary and almost convice him (keep in mind that liu bei is not involved all). Perhaps you might rethink this again when you deep dive into his adventures at the central. Just some ideas, you can explore his relationships with others, particularly those that are different or not well known from the novel. For eg, zhang liao and cheng gong(who are not really his subordinates. Chen gong, can has his own subplot, which explain why lu bu dont listen to him fully). Zhang yang (the only one who attempt to save him at the end) and the emperor (lu bu is one of the few who attempted to reach emperor at luo yang. Following his death, the emperor did have some good words about him as well. Though it maybe a facade). Other interesting stuffs include his persona (he's not dumb as per the novel. Quite political acute and smart actually, if you analyse his action). His affairs with others' wifes (well known lecherous). And the circumstances around his surrender(he's not captured, contrary to the novel).
1) Per historical records, flying general was given to him by Dong Zhuo after killing Ding Yuan and not earned through merit. 2) How did he trade wins with Cao Cao when he was handed the keys to the Yan Province by Chen Gong and Zhang Miao only to lose the entire province after six months once Cao Cao returned from the Xu Province. Pretty much every battle where Cao Cao and Lu Bu actually fought went in Cao Cao's favor despite the fact that only Cheng Yu and Xiahou Dun managed to retain two cities that did not fall initially to Lu Bu's hands. 3) Liu Bei and Lu Bu also never fought on equal terms in Xu Zhou. It is as if someone invited you into their house as a refugee and then when the owner left the house to fight an invader (Yuan Shu), you took his house. Like your statement about who else can claim that at the time with only Cao Cao and Lu Bu beating Liu Bei at the time (while they happen to be the only two that ever fought Liu Bei at the time so this doesn't say much as you are trying to use a later version of Liu Bei with much more manpower and multiple new strategist to compare to his strength at this time period). I think you are taking way too many romance factors into this discussion about his merit.
@@SeriousTrivia Hey Trivia, thanks for the time to reply. Actually no, i take it from the records and other documentaries. 1.) Description extract of Lu Bu from 三国志：布便弓马，膂力过人，号为飞将。"Flying General" is a very special title in China. No matter how the title is given, it must be acknowledged by the others in the same period in order to be deemed worthy in the history book. 吕布，字奉先，五原郡九原人,以骁武给并州 . He is already well known from his prowess in Bing Province before Dong Zhuo. Combined with "人中吕布，马中赤兔“, there is something meritable about him for Pei SongZhi to note down. If not, the records will be filled with "flying generals" 2.) They are locked down evenly for 100+ days prior to the locusts plague, each with wins. After which the tide is turned heavily towards Cao Cao. As I mentioned, there are a lot of external factors in this struggle. One of which is the advantage provided by the 世家 to Lu Bu at the beginning. Then we have the locust plague and the involvement of Yuan Shao, who provided troops and food to Cao Cao. In macro view, there is also the 2 Yuan's influence which affects the struggle (this is complicated to deep dive, but the point is that a war doesn't just involve 2 parties head to head.). Yes, Lu Bu has the advantage at the start. But seldom has a war starts with an equal strengths. If we learn anything from the 3 miracle wars, having a big advantage doesn't give you an automatic win. Not saying that Lu Bu is on par with Cao Cao, he's not. But he isn't a small-time general who Cao Cao can steamrolled either. 3.) There are other skirmishes other than the initial rebellion. The horse incident, Yuan-Liu conflict, and the the chase off at Xiao Pei. Yes, Liu Bei has not reach his peak. But he isn't a green horn either. He has the experience of battling yellow turbans (not as as straightforward as many minor warlords has proven). He also beat up the small-time warlord call Yuan Shu, who everyone bullied:) As someone who fought Cao Cao and managed to survive till the end, he is not totally useless without his latter strategists. On the other side, Lu Bu isn't at his peak too. By this stage he is heavily battled across the country. The novel heavily exaggerated Lu Bu's individual might because they want to hype up the three brothers. But a lot of the expeditions are true. (excluding Hu Lao Gate where he is just a bit part player and all the ridiculous solo act). Some incidents are not in the novel, like the Yuan's assassins, the raiding of Zhang Yan, the one on one dual with Guo Si (LOL). His intelligence was heavily downplayed. Like persuading Wang Yun to exempt the Xi Liang forces, his ridiculous 金馋脱壳 （another LOL). Big or small, these episodes shows his intelligence, prowess and battle skill in some way.
1) you are taking lines out of context though... like from your first example, the entire text is 卓以布见信于原，诱布令杀原。布斩原首诣卓，卓以布为骑都尉，甚爱信之，誓为父子。 布便弓马，膂力过人，号为飞将。稍迁至中郎将，封都亭侯。which gives the context that this is part of the reward given to him by Dong Zhuo after killing Ding Yuan and not something earned for his skills in battle. 时人语曰：“人中有吕布，马中有赤兔。” comes from 《曹瞒传》which is contemporary fictional work by a Wu author offerings outlandish stories involving Cao Cao's life. It is not better than Romance of the Three Kingdoms and once again Lu Bu is propped up in this book to make the main character (in this case Cao Cao) look better. 2 and 3) I am not arguing that Lu Bu is trash tier historically. I am just stating that if you look at his historical performance he is far from how he is often portrayed in media nowadays. There are plenty of generals worse than him who did not even have his individual prowess. I also make no intentions that he is dumb. Like the entire media portrayal of him being a brainless brute who is like a superman without a brain is wrong which I will go on to show in the entire series as we move forward. I mean the fact that he can be the head secretary for Ding Yuan means he was literate which is a huge thing for someone born on the frontiers and probably means that he was decently educated and had brains. His character flaws are more along the lines of greed, disloyalty, and lack of foresight rather than any issues with intelligence. If anything Chen Shou's depiction of 吕布有虓虎之勇，而无英奇之略，轻狡反复，唯利是视。is dead on. Lu Bu is an extremely discounted version of Xiang Yu but sadly is portrayed as a similar type of character in most media.
1) hmm, you are right here. I didn't realise the original text is this way. Pardon for my misinformed. 2,3) well I can agreed the sentiments here. But I think the societal view and his upbringing plays a part as well. He's educated, but I don't think he comes from a 世家. Will be mentioned otherwise. So his exposure may narrowed his view of thought. Just my speculation. Regardless, look forward to your interpretation! Not arguing his flaws here. That is well documented. And tbh, Xiang yu is on another level, above Cao cao if I may? I usually see lu bu as a discounted dong zhuo. Same bought up from the front tier, renowned for their individual prowess (I think dong zhuo is the guy who can 左右开弓 on horseback). Same denial by the nobility. But lack his ambition, farsight and ability. Not blood related, they are more alike than they thought.
@@SeriousTrivia Hey man, apology for being long-winded. I went back to look at 三国志 and realized where I get the impression. From 卷七 魏书七 吕布张邈臧洪传: 吕布字奉先，五原郡九原人也。以骁武给并州。刺史丁原为骑都尉，屯河内，以布为主簿，大见亲待。灵帝崩，[一] 原将兵诣洛阳。与何进谋诛诸黄门，拜执金吾。进败，董卓入京都，将为乱，欲杀原，并其兵觽。卓以布见信于原，诱布令杀原。布斩原首诣卓，卓以布为骑都尉，甚爱信之，誓为父子。
布便弓马，膂力过人，号为飞将。稍迁至中郎将，封都亭侯。卓自以遇人无礼，恐人谋己，行止常以布自韂。然卓性刚而褊，忿不思难，尝小失意，拔手戟掷布。布拳捷避之，为卓顾谢，卓意亦解。由是阴怨卓。卓常使布守中合，布与卓侍婢私通，恐事发觉，心不自安。 If the paragraphing is accurate. Then the reward for killing Ding Yun is the just the title 骑都尉 . The following sentences "布便弓马，膂力过人，号为飞将。稍迁至中郎将，封都亭侯。" is a profile status of him. Like a linkedin profile: ”Lu Bu, skilled at horse archery with strong arms, aka the Flying general. Recently promoted to 中郎将，都亭侯". If it is given by Dong Zhuo, the more accurate sentence will be "封为飞将“. There is no explicit statement on why he is known for that. It may be because of his individual might, achievements (骁武给并州 comes from first paragraph, so he did something during his time prior to Dong Zhuo), or just marketing hype by Dong Zhuo's camp. Regardless, that is the nickname known by others. You are right that 曹瞒传 is a contemporary work. Same for the likes of 英雄记曰. But we can't dismissal it as a complete fiction. The intention of these works is to collect the life details of the characters, a biography if you may. In modern studies, there are two version of 三国志 that are typical used for scholarly work, the original Chen Shou version, and the revised version by Pei SongZhi. The annotation from 曹瞒传 and other contemporary works are added in by the latter. If the story lacks credibility, chances are PSZ won't add it in. His annotation also provides another perspective of the records; there are certain stuffs that are too sensitive for Chen Shou to explicitly state because of his positioning. Or he may lack resources to do so. Afterall he is just he is just one person/party. Information then is not well disseminated as like today. Hence, in modern scholarly work, its better to take take account of multiple works and cross validate the statement, rather than just based on one. But the general rule of thumb is follow the original 三国志 first, then review the other records. Incidentally, the records for yan battle. 宫说邈曰：“今雄杰并起，天下分崩，君以千里之觽，当四战之地，抚剑顾眄，亦足以为人豪，而反制于人，不以鄙乎！今州军东征，其处空虚，吕布壮士，善战无前，若权迎之，共牧兖州，观天下形势，俟时事之变通，此亦纵横之一时也。”邈从之。太祖初使宫将兵留屯东郡，遂以其觽东迎布为兖州牧，据濮阳。郡县皆应，唯鄄城、东阿、范为太祖守。太祖引军还，与布战于濮阳，太祖军不利，相持百余日。是时岁旱、虫蝗、少谷，百姓相食，布东屯山阳。二年间，太祖乃尽复收诸城，击破布于钜野。布东奔刘备。邈从布，留超将家属屯雍丘。太祖攻围数月，屠之，斩超及其家。邈诣袁术请救未至，自为其兵所杀。 就不用英文讲述了，怕透漏太多。毕竟您的观众大多来自英文教育。从这段我们只懂，1）陈宫等引吕布 2.) 吕布占优百余日，蝗灾后转衰。3.)战争次序两年，个人觉得一年多比较准确 194-196. 您的六月应该是指蝗灾之后的反扑。4)之前提的袁绍参与之来自后汉书。也是史书文学的一个，您觉得合适再采用吧。毕竟历史跟恐龙故事一样 ，我们只能尽力还原，但没100%的真相。
To make Liu Bei, Guan Yu, and Zhang Fei look good in the novel as protagonists. Like same reason that Hua Xiong was never a general nor killed by Guan Yu but his first appearance is him being a monster killing two of the coalition generals only for Guan Yu to go kill him in one swing.
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Just imagining Lu Bu doing clerical duties tickles me quite a bit 🤣. and that bit about Zhang Liao is very enlightening. given the honorable nature of the man,like you mentioned,I always assume he didn't took part in Lu Bu's desertion of Ding Yuan or rather he turned a blind eye towards it due to his closeness to Lu Bu. turns out he's in the capital when it happened. Good to know.
Lu Bu IRL was both talented in martial and scholarly abilities.
I'm always reminded of how Cao Cao described him as, "A boar without an original thought in his head."
He might well have been a potent bodyguard or duelist but anything past that was above his ability.
Secretary Lu Bu will become the greatest secretary there is and everyone will remember him as a secretary.
Red Hare among Horses, Lu Bu among Secretaries
Cao Cao: "I would betray the world, than have the world betray me!"
Lu Bu: "Yeah, that's cute old man...."
Lu Bu, and probably Zhuge Liang, are historic characters that I have many doubts in their story in 'Romance' version of their 'biography', thank you for making this lore to clarify things a bit for me. Keep up the good work!
Xiahou Dun eating his own eyeball after it got pierced with an arrow mine. I wonder if that was just a rumor that was spread to scare and demoralize whoever they were at war with at the time
@@rami8896I like to think that his eye did got shot and he did ripped it out in a fit of rage. But as to the badass quote accompanying it and the eating part, I doubt that happened. Most likely he was just frothing and roaring with anger, but that makes for a poor story now would it.
@@ikmalkamal5830
He did lose his eye, but probably to infection.
Heck yeah, so excited for this series! I find the history of the Three Kingdoms absolutely amazing to learn about. The Romance is so influential that I feel it corrupts its own history, and these series are how I get my information. Thanks so much for your wonderful presentation, and teaching me so much about what is now my favourite mythology.
A negative word like "corrupt" isn't quite fitting to describe the Romance's relationship to actual history. It implies that the Romance account, being fictional, is beneath or worth less than historical records, which simply isn't true. They are valuable in their own ways.
But I agree with you that the real history is fascinating to learn about :D
the novel is so well written as a work of literature, it has contributed immensely to put the three kingdoms period on the map as a well known period. So regardless of how different from history in some aspects, its contribution cannot be understated.
@@SeriousTrivia I completely agree, and I didn't intend for my comment to bemoan the existence of Romance of the Three Kingdoms - there's a reason I call it my favourite mythology. I simply mean that the popularity of it has altered how the period of history is generally perceived, much like England's King Arthur. Lu Bu is a great case study, he's generally accepted as being a peerless warrior - and yet historically he seemed to be more of a clerk with a penchant for shanking his bosses.
Some people have a natural knack for having an eye for exceptionally talented warriors. I've always held great appreciation and respect to those who were able to discern talent and value it. Ding Yuan definitely seemingly had an eye for it, but he didn't seem to have the political eye of meeting his subordinates needs and wants. Or perhaps simply cruel fate. Regardless, it's pretty crazy Ding Yuan picked out two of some of the most notable warriors in the Three Kingdoms time period, and easily had Ding Yuan not been there and had it been someone else, both Lu Bu and Zhang Liao could have been overlooked.
Lu Bu was probably just a lowly foot soldier, and Zhang Liao when young served a minor official in his home commandery and from there he had many skirmishes and rebellions which he learned from in his youth and became an excellent skilled general and fighter. It was only after Ding Yuan heard of Zhang Liao's skills in battle at holding off bandits and his experience that he decided to hire him as an assistant officer. In my opinion, if Ding Yuan had not been at that post that day, we possibly would never have had Lu Bu or Zhang Liao, at least not written in history as it is, events would be totally different in so many ways. Crazy to think how much impact 1 single person can have.
My favorite part from the Novel was when Lu Bu grabbed Ji Ling by the neck and dragged him back to the negation table with Liu Bei like a child. Really shows you how powerful he must've been to be able to handle a grown-ass man in that manner.
as a matter of fact,that Lu Bu shot his halberd from faraway ,really did happen in history
@@guanyukobeHe shot the small dagger on the side specifically too.
Just wanting to say thank you very much for making this series!
Stumbled upon this channel after picking up total war three kingdoms again. Been loving the content so far. Keep it up!
Among horses, red hare. Among RUclipsrs, Serious Trivia
Its always the secretaries isnt it 😆
Lu bu must have been a good enough leader for most of his men to stick with him until the very end of Liu Bei's endless wandering was not enough for people to leave him.
Yet it was also his men who opened the gates and gave up Xiapi at the end too…so I don’t see this argument
He’s definitely not my favorite figure from this period (Zhang Liao is so much better), but I’m actually really excited for this lore series
Just imagine if Lu Bu had the leadership skills to match his fighting skills.
Add an intellect equal to that and he'd be invincible
He just needed to listen to Chen Gong, I swear, ppl not listening to their strategists has become a meme for me
@@javierdariolopez About that..there are plenty of reasons. Chen Gong is not who he is from the novel. Let's see if trivia will explore it further 😉
@@alexsoh370 :O now my interest is picked! I hope we get that part!
@@javierdariolopez To be fair, there are a ton of strategists in Three Kingdoms that you really shouldn't listen to.
I can only imagine how OP he would have been if he'd placed his energies in both combat and strategy. He might even have surpassed Xiang Yu...
Somebody should've taught this man that you never bite the hand that feeds you. He was a skilled warrior, but his deceitful nature got the best of him.
It is...it is...LÜ BU!!!
Thor: Finally a worthy opponent
That thumbnail goes hard but not as hard as Lu Bu one hit-KOing you
Daddy Lu: Fengxian (Lu Bu’s courtesy name), one day, you’re gonna be a good and hardworking civil official
Lu Bu: Shaddup! I wanna be a warrior! I wanna cut down foes and be the one who’ll rule the land! My destiny is to be the Emperor! King of all that is under Heaven!
Mommy Lu: Oh, dear, looks like our son wants to be a bloodthirsty hooligan and he wants to sit on a throne!
Daddy Lu: Yeah, right! He wants to sit on a throne, a throne inside a bathroom!
Lu Bu: I wanna be a conqueror! I wanna rule the land and be like Xiang Yu!*
*Xiang Yu is the one who feuded with Liu Bang in order to rule China and Peter Ho, a Chinese actor, played both Lu Bu and Xiang Yu in Three Kingdoms 2010 and King’s War
Like I said on a previous video years back.
Lu bus story could be seen as an undercover covert ops mission GONE BAD in romance of three kingdoms
YEAHHH!!
Hey Serious Trivia, I know Lu bu's two big feathers is his Iconic look but has Lu Bu ever historically put on a Helmet for protection from getting snip by a arrow or stab in the head? He is literally leaving his head expose.
the two big feathers are just an opera look that most games adopted...historically he never put up any feather and stuck to boring old helmets just like how his historical weapon is a boring old spear. They even found the exact spear in his tomb.
Interest.
Was there any real chance of Yuan Shu accepting Lu Bu into his faction?
Yuan Shu? Not likely at that point but Yuan Shao did accept him for a while
Aren't Lu Bu almost become in law with Yuan Shu?
It’s lubu!!! Lubu vs Achilles who wins? Go!
Some books 📚 portray ding 🛎 yuan as a scholarly virtuous guy with high principles like GOT’s Ned stark
Real life Lu Bu vs Brad Pit Achilles: Achilles get cut in half by the halberd before he can yell hector.
Dynasty Warrior Lu Bu vs Mythological Archilles: Lu Bu air attack him long enough to hit the angle and kill him
I mean it's a bit unfair given Lubu has basically 1000 year head start in weapon and armor tech. It's like I give you a AK47 and have you fight a Knight from the middle ages, you don't even need to be good with a gun.
I'm a bit confused, isn't prefect a lower level position? Commandery or county or sg like that? (brobably dumb question)
Great video btw, as always :)
mayor = head of county
administrator = head of commandery (made up of multiple counties)
prefect = head of province (made up of multiple commanderies)
then governor was created in mid 180s on the suggestion of Liu Yan to give provinces a position with military command as while prefect was the supervisor of administrators, their job was to inspect and report back to the Imperial Court but held no military command in most instances (unless they were also given a general title most common in the case of frontier provinces) while the core military garrison command laid in the hands of administrators. Prefect and Governors then co-existed for the majority of the Three Kingdoms period.
In my memories this (province level) position was called "inspector", so I think it's just my confusion with different translations. Anyway, thank you for the detailed explanation :)
That’s just a translation difference. Inspector and Prefect both refers to 刺史 Ci Shi
Every legend begin in what really happen in the reality.
So, would Lyu Bu and Guan Yu have some type of bond to their hometowns?
Not from the same place
Ohh yeah, the ungodly bastard of three fathers, the assistant with untrustworthy kill assists, a military officer with questionable battle records, and above all, a basest warrior without equal!
He could only score huge kills and lovely maidens, and only the bonds of his cadres of officers could attain Lü Bu’s destiny!
One does not simply pursue Lu Bu
Where did you get this wallpaper?
googled a fanart....hopefully no copyright issues ;)
Yay
So how come Guan Yu is know/revered as the God of War instead of Lu Bu?
First off, Guan Yu is a much more successful general and shown way more personal prowess on the battlefield than Lu Bu whether it is in history or in romance.
Second off, Guan Yu was deified and elevated in later generations mainly on the combination of his success on the battlefield and his character (valor, bravery, and loyalty) which Lu Bu is basically trash tier given that he betrayed pretty much every single one of his lords that he served or took him in.
@@SeriousTrivia was Guan Yu deified before RTK novel? Or did the novel have a significant influence on his deification?
he was already getting deified prior to the novel but it really ramped up officially in the Qing Dynasty when the government put their full force behind it. Prior to the novel, it was mainly the taoist and buddhist that were giving him a deified status but not officially the government (I mean it was the Yuan Dynasty at the time so the Mongols was not going to pushing for a Han deity).
@@SeriousTrivia thanks for the explanation. Why would the Qing want to officially deify Guan Yu. I thought he was the patron god of the Heaven & Earth society right? Or is that only in popular culture.
Because Lu Bu died earlier than him. Guan Yu was a humble man when Lu Bu was alive, and became an arrogant prick after he die beause he knows he's now the strongest. Every Chinese knew this lol.
Where do u get all your information and facts and stuff
Records of the three kingdoms and book of the late Han for the most part
The based-est.
Hey serious trivia. Good effort to retell the orgin of characters by historical record.
Just one thing about this section that might be debatable. I don't think it's fair to say lu bu is a bad general. Per historical record, his nickname of flying general is earned while at the border. You don't earned that just by being a good fighter.
He is one of the few who could trade wins with Cao cao. Admittedly during the battle yan province, cao cao isn't at his peak. But still he's not somebody who can be defeated easily. Just check yuan shu and liu bei, who aren't able to defeat him once in the early period. At one point, cao cao almost gave up. That was how bad it is (granted there are external factors as well).
Likewise at xuzhou, he was able to repel liu bei. Though not at his peak, who else other than cao cao and lu bu can claim that at that stage of time?
Yes, his win/loss record aren't great, but we have to consider his opponents as well.
I think in actual, he is a rather capable general. Fighting prowess wise, definitely overrated. But still outstanding as per his nickname and certain acts, which are historical recorded. Also, he should be specialising in leading calvary, or at least confident at it. At his last moment, he tried to sell Cao cao the idea of him leading the calvary and almost convice him (keep in mind that liu bei is not involved all). Perhaps you might rethink this again when you deep dive into his adventures at the central.
Just some ideas, you can explore his relationships with others, particularly those that are different or not well known from the novel. For eg, zhang liao and cheng gong(who are not really his subordinates. Chen gong, can has his own subplot, which explain why lu bu dont listen to him fully). Zhang yang (the only one who attempt to save him at the end) and the emperor (lu bu is one of the few who attempted to reach emperor at luo yang. Following his death, the emperor did have some good words about him as well. Though it maybe a facade). Other interesting stuffs include his persona (he's not dumb as per the novel. Quite political acute and smart actually, if you analyse his action). His affairs with others' wifes (well known lecherous). And the circumstances around his surrender(he's not captured, contrary to the novel).
1) Per historical records, flying general was given to him by Dong Zhuo after killing Ding Yuan and not earned through merit.
2) How did he trade wins with Cao Cao when he was handed the keys to the Yan Province by Chen Gong and Zhang Miao only to lose the entire province after six months once Cao Cao returned from the Xu Province. Pretty much every battle where Cao Cao and Lu Bu actually fought went in Cao Cao's favor despite the fact that only Cheng Yu and Xiahou Dun managed to retain two cities that did not fall initially to Lu Bu's hands.
3) Liu Bei and Lu Bu also never fought on equal terms in Xu Zhou. It is as if someone invited you into their house as a refugee and then when the owner left the house to fight an invader (Yuan Shu), you took his house. Like your statement about who else can claim that at the time with only Cao Cao and Lu Bu beating Liu Bei at the time (while they happen to be the only two that ever fought Liu Bei at the time so this doesn't say much as you are trying to use a later version of Liu Bei with much more manpower and multiple new strategist to compare to his strength at this time period).
I think you are taking way too many romance factors into this discussion about his merit.
@@SeriousTrivia Hey Trivia, thanks for the time to reply. Actually no, i take it from the records and other documentaries.
1.) Description extract of Lu Bu from 三国志：布便弓马，膂力过人，号为飞将。"Flying General" is a very special title in China. No matter how the title is given, it must be acknowledged by the others in the same period in order to be deemed worthy in the history book. 吕布，字奉先，五原郡九原人,以骁武给并州 . He is already well known from his prowess in Bing Province before Dong Zhuo. Combined with "人中吕布，马中赤兔“, there is something meritable about him for Pei SongZhi to note down. If not, the records will be filled with "flying generals"
2.) They are locked down evenly for 100+ days prior to the locusts plague, each with wins. After which the tide is turned heavily towards Cao Cao. As I mentioned, there are a lot of external factors in this struggle. One of which is the advantage provided by the 世家 to Lu Bu at the beginning. Then we have the locust plague and the involvement of Yuan Shao, who provided troops and food to Cao Cao. In macro view, there is also the 2 Yuan's influence which affects the struggle (this is complicated to deep dive, but the point is that a war doesn't just involve 2 parties head to head.).
Yes, Lu Bu has the advantage at the start. But seldom has a war starts with an equal strengths. If we learn anything from the 3 miracle wars, having a big advantage doesn't give you an automatic win.
Not saying that Lu Bu is on par with Cao Cao, he's not. But he isn't a small-time general who Cao Cao can steamrolled either.
3.) There are other skirmishes other than the initial rebellion. The horse incident, Yuan-Liu conflict, and the the chase off at Xiao Pei. Yes, Liu Bei has not reach his peak. But he isn't a green horn either. He has the experience of battling yellow turbans (not as as straightforward as many minor warlords has proven). He also beat up the small-time warlord call Yuan Shu, who everyone bullied:) As someone who fought Cao Cao and managed to survive till the end, he is not totally useless without his latter strategists. On the other side, Lu Bu isn't at his peak too. By this stage he is heavily battled across the country.
The novel heavily exaggerated Lu Bu's individual might because they want to hype up the three brothers. But a lot of the expeditions are true. (excluding Hu Lao Gate where he is just a bit part player and all the ridiculous solo act). Some incidents are not in the novel, like the Yuan's assassins, the raiding of Zhang Yan, the one on one dual with Guo Si (LOL). His intelligence was heavily downplayed. Like persuading Wang Yun to exempt the Xi Liang forces, his ridiculous 金馋脱壳 （another LOL). Big or small, these episodes shows his intelligence, prowess and battle skill in some way.
1) you are taking lines out of context though... like from your first example, the entire text is 卓以布见信于原，诱布令杀原。布斩原首诣卓，卓以布为骑都尉，甚爱信之，誓为父子。 布便弓马，膂力过人，号为飞将。稍迁至中郎将，封都亭侯。which gives the context that this is part of the reward given to him by Dong Zhuo after killing Ding Yuan and not something earned for his skills in battle.
时人语曰：“人中有吕布，马中有赤兔。” comes from 《曹瞒传》which is contemporary fictional work by a Wu author offerings outlandish stories involving Cao Cao's life. It is not better than Romance of the Three Kingdoms and once again Lu Bu is propped up in this book to make the main character (in this case Cao Cao) look better.
2 and 3) I am not arguing that Lu Bu is trash tier historically. I am just stating that if you look at his historical performance he is far from how he is often portrayed in media nowadays. There are plenty of generals worse than him who did not even have his individual prowess.
I also make no intentions that he is dumb. Like the entire media portrayal of him being a brainless brute who is like a superman without a brain is wrong which I will go on to show in the entire series as we move forward. I mean the fact that he can be the head secretary for Ding Yuan means he was literate which is a huge thing for someone born on the frontiers and probably means that he was decently educated and had brains.
His character flaws are more along the lines of greed, disloyalty, and lack of foresight rather than any issues with intelligence. If anything Chen Shou's depiction of 吕布有虓虎之勇，而无英奇之略，轻狡反复，唯利是视。is dead on. Lu Bu is an extremely discounted version of Xiang Yu but sadly is portrayed as a similar type of character in most media.
1) hmm, you are right here. I didn't realise the original text is this way. Pardon for my misinformed.
2,3) well I can agreed the sentiments here. But I think the societal view and his upbringing plays a part as well. He's educated, but I don't think he comes from a 世家. Will be mentioned otherwise. So his exposure may narrowed his view of thought. Just my speculation. Regardless, look forward to your interpretation!
Not arguing his flaws here. That is well documented. And tbh, Xiang yu is on another level, above Cao cao if I may? I usually see lu bu as a discounted dong zhuo. Same bought up from the front tier, renowned for their individual prowess (I think dong zhuo is the guy who can 左右开弓 on horseback). Same denial by the nobility. But lack his ambition, farsight and ability.
Not blood related, they are more alike than they thought.
@@SeriousTrivia Hey man, apology for being long-winded. I went back to look at 三国志 and realized where I get the impression. From 卷七 魏书七 吕布张邈臧洪传:
吕布字奉先，五原郡九原人也。以骁武给并州。刺史丁原为骑都尉，屯河内，以布为主簿，大见亲待。灵帝崩，[一] 原将兵诣洛阳。与何进谋诛诸黄门，拜执金吾。进败，董卓入京都，将为乱，欲杀原，并其兵觽。卓以布见信于原，诱布令杀原。布斩原首诣卓，卓以布为骑都尉，甚爱信之，誓为父子。
布便弓马，膂力过人，号为飞将。稍迁至中郎将，封都亭侯。卓自以遇人无礼，恐人谋己，行止常以布自韂。然卓性刚而褊，忿不思难，尝小失意，拔手戟掷布。布拳捷避之，为卓顾谢，卓意亦解。由是阴怨卓。卓常使布守中合，布与卓侍婢私通，恐事发觉，心不自安。
If the paragraphing is accurate. Then the reward for killing Ding Yun is the just the title 骑都尉 . The following sentences "布便弓马，膂力过人，号为飞将。稍迁至中郎将，封都亭侯。" is a profile status of him. Like a linkedin profile: ”Lu Bu, skilled at horse archery with strong arms, aka the Flying general. Recently promoted to 中郎将，都亭侯". If it is given by Dong Zhuo, the more accurate sentence will be "封为飞将“. There is no explicit statement on why he is known for that. It may be because of his individual might, achievements (骁武给并州 comes from first paragraph, so he did something during his time prior to Dong Zhuo), or just marketing hype by Dong Zhuo's camp. Regardless, that is the nickname known by others.
You are right that 曹瞒传 is a contemporary work. Same for the likes of 英雄记曰. But we can't dismissal it as a complete fiction. The intention of these works is to collect the life details of the characters, a biography if you may. In modern studies, there are two version of 三国志 that are typical used for scholarly work, the original Chen Shou version, and the revised version by Pei SongZhi. The annotation from 曹瞒传 and other contemporary works are added in by the latter. If the story lacks credibility, chances are PSZ won't add it in. His annotation also provides another perspective of the records; there are certain stuffs that are too sensitive for Chen Shou to explicitly state because of his positioning. Or he may lack resources to do so. Afterall he is just he is just one person/party. Information then is not well disseminated as like today. Hence, in modern scholarly work, its better to take take account of multiple works and cross validate the statement, rather than just based on one. But the general rule of thumb is follow the original 三国志 first, then review the other records.
Incidentally, the records for yan battle.
宫说邈曰：“今雄杰并起，天下分崩，君以千里之觽，当四战之地，抚剑顾眄，亦足以为人豪，而反制于人，不以鄙乎！今州军东征，其处空虚，吕布壮士，善战无前，若权迎之，共牧兖州，观天下形势，俟时事之变通，此亦纵横之一时也。”邈从之。太祖初使宫将兵留屯东郡，遂以其觽东迎布为兖州牧，据濮阳。郡县皆应，唯鄄城、东阿、范为太祖守。太祖引军还，与布战于濮阳，太祖军不利，相持百余日。是时岁旱、虫蝗、少谷，百姓相食，布东屯山阳。二年间，太祖乃尽复收诸城，击破布于钜野。布东奔刘备。邈从布，留超将家属屯雍丘。太祖攻围数月，屠之，斩超及其家。邈诣袁术请救未至，自为其兵所杀。
就不用英文讲述了，怕透漏太多。毕竟您的观众大多来自英文教育。从这段我们只懂，1）陈宫等引吕布 2.) 吕布占优百余日，蝗灾后转衰。3.)战争次序两年，个人觉得一年多比较准确 194-196. 您的六月应该是指蝗灾之后的反扑。4)之前提的袁绍参与之来自后汉书。也是史书文学的一个，您觉得合适再采用吧。毕竟历史跟恐龙故事一样 ，我们只能尽力还原，但没100%的真相。
If Lu Bu is such a mediocre general and a failure in real life, why is he elevated into a monster like figure in Romance?
To make Liu Bei, Guan Yu, and Zhang Fei look good in the novel as protagonists. Like same reason that Hua Xiong was never a general nor killed by Guan Yu but his first appearance is him being a monster killing two of the coalition generals only for Guan Yu to go kill him in one swing.
@@SeriousTrivia the more I hear about the novel the more it sounds like Shu propaganda
I mean it’s like fanfiction with Liu Bei as the main character
Bro in the novel and in actual historical recordds Lu Bu was probably the single most skilled fighter in all of China during that time.
Actually historical records….definitely not
lu bu and guan yu may have been touted as the greatest warriors of their time.. but they both got themselves killed. just saying
everyone dies eventually...its all about how one is remembered
You misspelled Lü Bu for damns sake!
Easier for the searches in RUclips
first!
Lu Bu in the Netflix movie was bad ass.!!!!!!