The reason the danger motif doesn’t show up in Suffering is that, for once, Odysseus and the crew are in NO danger. No, in fact, they ARE the danger, different beasts and all.
@CFEntertains it'd be like having a blade that glows when orcs are near and giving it to orcs. At that point it's new title would be "glowing sword" Danger motif is danger to the crew not from the crew.
I believe it’s actually only danger to Odysseus, isn’t it? (SCYLLA SPOILERS AFTER THIS LINE) I don’t think we hear it at all in relation to Scylla (could be wrong!) and I intercepted that to be because Odysseus was never in any danger from her, because they are the same and yada yada yada
@@pocketfullofbees7071The danger motif is apparently present in Scylla !! It's just a bit hard to catch You can hear it when the fiddle starts playing very wildly. Like that sudden change up after Scylla says "Hello" I had to listen to it over and over again to actually notice it. It's basically just the highest note from each measure played by the fiddle
@@DracoCragorei know it’s not a big deal, but technically it’s a violin. They’re “the same instrument”, but it’s about the genre. a fiddle is much more bluegrass and country.
Fun fan theory: the reason why siren penelope says "come play with our daughter" and not "come play with our son" is because there are only female sirens and they had a tiny siren play the girl.
@@SleepyHollowKnighti mean tbf odysseus DID say “if i gotta drop another infant from a wall in an instant so we all don’t die, then i’ll become the monster” so it’s not too far-fetched that he’d be capable of doing that
Welcome everybody, in this video we have - Posiren - 20+ minutes of Casper definitely having a crush on Poseidon at this point - ..bees? - “Jump in the water and kiss me ” - apparently Poseidon to Odysseus - sushi saga
@@CFEntertains basically, you’re a prophet about everything except Poseidon, first we got wet Hades instead of Poseidon and now Poseidon instead of sirens
@@fatema7-l4mhe just doesn’t know how to express it so he takes it out on Odysseus like a school boy. Hitting and throwing rocks and drowning all of his men 😌
@@big3fanboy19 No, the Trojan War is apart. Yes, it lasted 10 years, but the return of Ulysses also lasted 10 years. In total, he was away from home for 20 years. When he says it's been 12 years, he means 10 years during the war + 2 years (at Circé especially in the original version)
In Casper’s defense in Greek mythology sirens aren’t sea creatures, but are in this are more akin to mermaids so if go by Ancient Greek rules Poseidon makes sense.
It is my headcannon that Odysseus is always so busy being cunning and clever that he just can't calculate things in the calendar. He doesn't have the headspace for it. Even when he's not at sea, he's generally just not a calendar person. "We've been away from home for... hmm. Twelve years? I guess?" LOL
@hindymarkowitz1340 Odysseus at his palace being like “wow i can’t believe it’s been 22 years!” Penelope: Boy… 🤨 Telemachus: i think we should get him a calendar for a welcome home gift 🤪
If you listen to the relationship between the vocals and the backing it suggests there’s a syllable missing. I think jorge originally wrote it as like 13 years or so but changed it after the Circe saga
Siren: "So jump in the water and KISS me!" Casper: "It's Poseidon!" Idk the thought of Poseidon, pretending to be someone else or not, asking Ody to kiss him is just so funny to me Edit1: Also Flashy Hades Saga yay :D Edit2: Also, can we all just agree to make Posiren a staying meme in the EPIC fandom? Like wet Hades
**imagine if this is what happened** Poseidon (wearing a wig): Come kiss me, I’m totally your wife! Odysseus: (leans down) Poseidon: HAHA! (Grabs Odysseus and drowns him) dumbass
"If he prefers his feet on the ground why did he become a captain in the navy" 😂 He is the king of an island nation, who was duty-bound to join the Trojan war (by gods did he try to avoid it, feigned insanity and everything so he could be home instead and watch his son grow, but the gods willed otherwise), so... sailing happens.
Don’t forget Agamemnon threatened baby Telemachus with a dagger to foil Odysseus’s craziness scheme. From my perspective Odysseus’s worst antagonist isn’t Poseidon, its the Son of Atreus
@@jungletherainwing1471 nah, Agamemnon was just enforcing treaty obligations that Odysseus himself came up with in the first place. Arguably no one would’ve shown up for the Trojan war if odysseus hadn’t formed a damn NATO alliance around Helen’s marriage. The real Takeaway of the Homeric epics should be that Paris can go fuck himself and his dumb fucking eyesocket. No I don’t irrationally hate Paris because my parents almost named me after him, why do you ask?
@@jungletherainwing1471pretty sure that wasn't Agamemnon, but a different guy that Odysseus actually framed for treason (with the help of Diomedes) during the Trojan war, and had executed as revenge for threatening his son.
@@garethmorton5620 Yeah, the guy was Palamedes and basically was a more op Odysseus. When he went to Ithaca to collect him, Ody pretended to be a crazy servant tending the fields. So palamedes took telemachus and placed him in front of the animals that he was using, forcing Odysseus to stop the act and save his son. During the war Palamedes managed to convince the king of thrace to send food to the greeks, something that Odysseus had previously failed. This, among other things, made Odysseus jealous so while palamedes was away Odysseus captured a trojan soldier, buried a bag of coin infront of palamedes' tent and made the prisoner falsely confess that palamedes was working for the trojans. When Palamedes returned, he was executed for treason
"He will chase you high and low, so find a place he'll never go, the place where you must go..." Has the same beat as... "He will burn your house and throne, He'll find you wherever you go, The gods will make him know..."
Oooooh so it all connects! Siren song = I see a song of past romance Scylla Throat = I see the sacrifice of man Mutiny = I see portrayals of betrayal Lighting Bolt = And a brother's final stand
The song titles from this saga are rumored to be what the ghost choir sings in No Longer You. If that's true, then that's another reason for me to LOVE this musical
Funny thing, Casper, you'll notice the LACK of a Penelope motif or instrument in Suffering (aside form the beginning, which kinda resembles the motif I guess). This is intentional. The sirens are failing to convincingly imitate Penelope.
@@Dani_77709 Funny thing; the sirens' Penelope motif is a note off, but the real weirdness is that it's so synth-y. In EPIC, mortal music isn't electrical or synthetic. This is another clue that supernatural entities are trying to co-opt Penelope's theme.
The fact that, even if you and Mortius are reacting separatly, you somehow managed to put your reactions on the same day and one after the other😂 Can't wait for it!
@@CFEntertains That's honestly a good deal, we still jump from one premiere to another like normally. It would've been interesting to see you react to it together for the first time, but it's fair to wait for the animatics- WHICH! Are coming out SUPPER. QUICKLY! The Epic fandom waist no time!
21:47 - If anyone is wandering about the beeswax thing, i looked it up. In ancient greece it was used for writing tablets ,but it could be there for wood preserwation (the ship is made of wood afterall), and due to the fact that we know archers were a part of the crew (Odysseus was also an archer, but from what I remember he left his bow at home), they could have been using it for the bow's strings (wax ptortects the string from wear and tear, i think). Do take this with a grain of salt as I am not an expert lol. Edit: Okay, nevermind - according to an article I found, they got it from Circe as a gift
@@columba_lyrics I learnd about it after listening to the song 'Scylla' for the first time because I didn't know anything about her, but Circes lyric only clicked for me today :)
If you listen to the lyrics in Scylla, it also basically confirms her history with Circe too. Every single line she sings has a double meaning applying to both Odysseus and herself, revealing her backstory. In the beginning of the song, she sings about feelings of shame, being betrayed and losing bonds, like when Circe betrayed her and turned her into a monster, tearing her away from her old life. And the chorus is about her own transformation in the bathing pool: "Drown in your sorrows and fears / Choke on your blood and your tears / Bleed til you've run out of years ... Give up your honor and faith / Live up your life as a wraith / Die in the blood where you bathe". I love the song and how it paints Odysseus and Scylla as similar because they both were unwillingly turned into monsters but willingly embraced their newfound natures in order to "do what it takes to survive".
The Greeks didn't make the usual sacrifice to Poseidon before embarking back to Ithaca, despite all the disrespect they did to him and his followers during the war itself.
I 100% believe that Polities was in charge of the calendar (he kept track of everyone’s birthdays). Once he was gone everyone just started guessing the date, including Odysseus.
Don't know if anyone already said this. But The start of suffering is the only time we hear Penelope's name sung in that familiar melody without that accompanying viola. Which I think is Jorge telling us through music that this Penelope is fake. It's almost familiar, hitting a similar vibe, but still foreign or missing that element. Which I think is an amazing little detail.
@@jurassicfreak2579 right sorry, he will chase you high and low, so find some place he’ll never go, that entire line is almost an exact from The Horse and The infant
@@maisathedragonartist3364 yeap in Greek a male dog is σκύλος or Skylos in the way it's pronounced and the female dog is σκύλα basically Skyla (Scylla)
I like to think that Ody is just incredibly bad with time and numbers, it’s the funniest interpretation:D (the time in the sea may feel differently, of course, but not “two additional years” differently lmao)
19:42 FUN FACT! The lyric here is slightly different than before! Before it was (He/We) (is/are) the man made monster Now it’s: (He/We) (is/are) the man-made monster There’s a hyphen now! Which means grammatically, the men are now talking about how Odysseus man-made himself into a monster unlike before where they were just saying they’ve turned into monsters.
So here's something that's worth noting: Different Beast follows the same story structure as Polyphemus and Survive. It starts with the knock of an arrow. A sudden reveal of a greater threat. The ones being threatened plea for mercy. And then those pleas being answered with murder under the pretense of justice.
Citation: Homer. The Odyssey. Translated by Robert Fagles, Viking, 1996. Year 1: pirating around the Mediterranean, Cyclopes Year 2: the storm, Circe Year 3: leaving Circe, monsters, cows, Calypso Year 3-10: Calypso music intensifies I'm sorry, I'm new to the fandom, but why is everyone so weirded out about "12 years"? I'm confused why it's a meme. It's accurate, so I'm confused.
@@rhov-anion Canonically, in Epic, at this point it’s supposed to have been more like 10 years since Odysseus and his crew left Ithaca, fought at Troy and then started to sail home. However, in the song ”Other ways” in the Circe saga, Odysseus says that they have been gone twelve long years, and Jorge has said himself that he made a mistake about how long time it’s been. The fandom mostly makes a lighthearted joke about it, like Odysseus not having a calendar or just feeling like it’s been longer than it really has.
It’s because Jorge miscounted in the Circe saga and said 12 years when it hadn’t been 12 years yet. So he included “12 years or so” here as an Easter egg to his mistake and it’s become canon that Odysseus sucks at counting. That’s why we’re freaking out about “12 years or so”. It’s a callback to him misremembering the year count when he wrote the Circe saga
@@rhov-anionso when Odysseus first reaches Circes island, it’s been about a year since the Trojan War. As it was towards the beginning of year 2 of the journey. So it would’ve been 11 years give or take a month or so, since he’d last been home. But Jorge messed up and said 12 years. It was 12 years when he left Circes island, not when he arrived. Jorge got that wrong and didn’t realize until fans asked what he meant by 12 years since they’d just gotten to the island. So Jorge saying “12 years or so” is a little fix it/Easter egg to his miscounting
At this point, with the number of Jorge's creative liberties, I just accept that between Cyclops and Ocean, there were 2 years, possibly due to posiedon trying to stop him. Edit: what I should say is that I mean 2 years since the end of the Trojan War during Ocean. Then they crash land at Aeaea, circe's island. Then maybe a month until Thunder. This dose go against the year spent at Aeaea in the Odyssey, but maybe Odysseus was actually trying to get home ASAP
Actually, this is canon in the Odyssey! They spend a year on Circe's island, and presumably a year sailing in and out of the underworld. It HAS actually been twelve years.
@@aadityayanamandra8846 And it wasn’t like Aeaea, the Lotus eaters, and the cyclops cave were all just a day sailing away from Troy and from each other.
I think it’s a lot easier to put the extra time in full speed ahead than anywhere else, but I guess between cyclops and ocean could work as well, either way, we’re cutting out two years of mostly travel time
@@ezracohen6020The cyclops saga ends with them leaving Polyphemus's cave, storm saga starts as they're about to reach home the first time. "Our home's in sight/This storm's our final fight!" Which means their entire first journey home was apparently uneventful besides the cyclops fiasco until Poseidon came in to fuck shit up. Fun to think about just how much trouble came out of Ody not being capable of not doxxing himself.
@@SantosoWijaya Canonically, it took a year to reach Sicily and the Cyclopes, then a year from Polyphemus' cave to Circe, a year with Circe, and then... um... spoiler... seven years blah blah if you know you know so 3 years total sailing lost
Odysseus: How do I get back to my island? Siren: To evade Posaidon you will have to travel to places he avoids - thankfully now with *Skilla* you can find hundreds of ways for the very low cost
Skilla shares information very crucial for navigation in affordable options. With a minimum of 6 men per day, you have access to a premium subscription.
@@ChelTheNerdyPrude oh no way, I’m not very good at picking up when the actual motifs are happening unless it’s a one to one thing (and even then sometimes I miss them), so I guessed that the monster motif was probably in this one, but I had no idea that it was in the songs before the underworld saga
Re’ beeswax - It was widely used in Ancient Greece, often for cosmetics, writing and artwork, but also in lighting, medicine and wound treatment, plus treatment of materials such as leather, much like olive oil was. It can also be used to coat bowstrings. So it’s very much something that soldiers and sailors might have carried.
Odysseus shoots the siren with his bow! And the sound that was made when he called her a siren was her hissing at him. Also, super off topic, but World of Warcraft reference???? City of Orgrimmar?? And Singing Hades.
The reason that i think the "Danger is near" motif don't play on suffering, It's because of the fact that oddyseus said himself, that HE ALREADY KNEW that there were sirens in the area, and they had bee wax in their ears, preventing them from falling into their song. In other words, they knew what was happening, and just let the sirens to attract them to get information, he had everything under control, he was just waiting to get the information he needed, so then he could go different beast mode lol Great video as always! ❤⚡
1) Posiedon isnt necessarily scared of Scylla, but the monster near Scylla was turned into a monster due to a conflict between him and Zues. Probably a lot of guilt and reluctance to see her. 2)Troy was in Modern day Turkey, getting there from Greece by foot is not impossible, but nearly so, especially with an army. Not to mention the political issues with marching said army across several empires and countries.
It’s not my favorite, but I think it does exactly what it sets out to do amazingly, it explains the confusion of suffering (I figured sirens pretty quickly, but if you don’t figure that out different beast is really necessary for that), and it shows how Odysseus has become the monster (rawr rawr rawr), and the way they show it with the sirens is really cool because his decision is ultimately right to kill the sirens, but the way it is made and the way he kills them shows him being a monster, and then as we go on through the saga we get him making choices that are harder and harder to justify, killing the Sirens who absolutely would not spare him or any other sailor, yeah I can get behind that, an active sacrifice of six of the crew members so that the rest can all survive, harder to justify but sensible if looked at the right way, sacrificing the entire crew so he can get home is almost entirely unjustifiable from an outside position but from the perspective of him being a monster, the choice makes sense
The part when the siren sings: "He will chase you down and low" reminds me to the same melody of the song "The horse and the infant" when Zeus sings "The gods will make him know, this is the will of the gods". I don't know, I just find that interesting.
4:47 to be fair, Jay went on record saying the siren song got "cut" and he couldn't find a way for the sirens to be in the musical (which was likely an intentional lie to make the shock factor that much better)
Everytime you swear I am expecting Odysseus' "What?" From puppeteer lol Loved the reaction mate! Can't wait to see the Scylla, Mutiny, and Thunderbringer reactions!
Answering your questions: 1 - Ithaca, Odisseus' home is an Island (that is mentioned quickly before in the musical) so you can't just ride or walk there. 2 - About fishing: I know that's not common knowledge today but in antiquity people would know... Yes, you can an often do fish during your travel to resupply with food but you can't just live out of fish. In a years long you'd need vitamins and nutrients that you can't get from fish. You need fruit, vegetables, meat. Entire crews of sailors would die at sea from sickness when they started to run out on it. It was one of the gratest dangers during the exploration of the Atlantic. So, yeah, supplies doesn't mean just food... Well, mostly it does, but you need different kinds of food.
13:27 Well Ithica is an island so you can't avoid water entirely. the BEST you could do would be going from Kyllini and then across to Skala on Kefalonia then up to around Tselendata to take a VERY quite trip over to the island of Ithica. Kep in mind that all the traveling TO troy was done by boat so they wouldn't have the things needed to travel across land easily
In a short Jorge made he explained that the biggest hint that the siren Penelope was not the real Penelope in Suffering, was that her instrument the Viola, was not used
I dont know if anyone has commented this yet, but when the siren sings "This is your only way home, the lair of Scylla," Circe's theme is playing on piano in the background. This is hinting to the original Greek myth of Scylla. Scylla was originally a nymph on Circe's island, and everything started when the hero Glaucus arrived. They both fell in love with him, but Glaucus liked Scylla more than Circe. So Circe got jealous and poured a potion into the sea where Scylla was bathing, truning her into the monster she is now. I thought it was a subtle but clever nod to the myth so i wanted to share it with you guys.
Fun facts: around this time Odysseus actually has been away for about 12 years. He stays on Circe’s island for a year either before the underworld saga or before this saga. Scylla is said in some stories to be Poseidon’s ex turned into a monster by Poseidon’s wife
17:30 the transition from being sad to terrified and shocked from Odysseus on his face😭 Odysseus wasn’t really joking when he said he’ll become a monster😭
I NEED an animatic where Poseidon is wearing a cheap short wig on top of his long hair, muscular chest with starfish and laying on top of a rock singing. PLEASE! 😂
So they cannot walk home as you suggested. Ithaca, Odysseus’ kingdom, is an island. So while he could theoretically make some of the journey on the mainland, he’d still have to go through the sea to make it home
I love watching people react to Suffering and seeing the joy from hearing Penelope change to suspicion immediately after she asks Odysseus to jump in the water 😂
So... not sure if anyone said it already, but... Ithaca is an island... so walk is not an option. And... Poseidon is also the god responsible for earthquakes, so I'm not sure you're entirely safe on land.
There’s two fun fan theories I love and that’s that Ody doesn’t know how long he’s been sailing cause it was on polites to keep track of their dates and the calendar. And the sirens saw ody at a distance and were like okay he’s got huge girl dad energy.
Quick correction: Odysseus didn't become the captain in a navy. He's a military captain (well, their king, but functionally "captain" in the army), it's just that they have to use ships to sail from Ithaca to other lands they fight in.
I think it should be noted that Odysseus didn’t exactly sign up to be a captain in the navy. He is the king of Ithica, an island nation. As such you could imagine its military is rather… naval. In addition, the reason any of this happened was because Odysseus was part of the mutual protection pact thing that all of Helen’s suitors joined to protect people from getting jealous of whoever she married. And Odysseus even actively tried to prevent having to sail over to Troy (and as a consequence, going through the Odyssey) but his tricks were foiled when Agamemnon threatened Telemachus’s life. So it could’ve been possible that Odysseus became a naval captain while being scared of the water, it just isn’t the case
For the beeswax question, i think they already had the stuff in stock bc its pretty important for maintainance. They probably melted beeswax into different cloths making them waterproof, hell, maybe even doing that to the sails. (Pls do furthur research, i just know of the use of beeswax for cloths and food preservation, and maybe thread too)
Fun fact, Different Beasts starts the same way that Polyphemus does, with the arrow shot, and ends the same way that Remember Them does, with the soldier's woah chant (which I think is supposed to be like a monster motif), Odysseus' name being said, and then that low bass note.
I did mention it at around the end of the stream; but I'm curious about your thoughts: is Odyssey's "Kill them all!" lines not in the same tune as Athena's last bit of My Goodbye?
Technically Odysseus is not a captain in the navy, he is the King of Ithaca and thus commander-in-chief of the Ithacan military as a whole. Though obviously the whole water thing was just a bluff.
Thank you for the video, the thunder saga has definitely been one of my favourites and listening to your thoughts is always insightful and entertaining
11:29 I know this timestamp is a couple seconds ahead from the topic of the danger motif but, when you go into the second song, it's almost like they can't hear the danger because the crew and Ody have beeswax in their ears
Watch the ENTIRE UNEDITED Thunder Saga R/A on Patreon RIGHT NOW! www.patreon.com/CFEntertainment
I'm glad we finally get to see you react to mermaid hades lol
The image of the Siren pretending to be Penelope actually being Poseidon in a wig is SENDING me
I NEED someone to make that into an animatic so badly xD
A guy should cover Penelope’s lines in a falsetto. The perfect sequel to the surprise birthday for Telemachus spoof 😂😂
Singing Poseidon, a bit longer than Wet Hades.
Time to make fanart-
Female Wet Hades
Poseidon in the thunder saga✅
Hades in the ocean saga✅
Poseidon in the ocean saga❌
-Casper apparently
Unfortunately he didn't guess that Zeus would appear in the Underworld Saga.
The reason the danger motif doesn’t show up in Suffering is that, for once, Odysseus and the crew are in NO danger. No, in fact, they ARE the danger, different beasts and all.
Jorge calls it the “danger is near” motif - wouldn’t it still make sense to have it play since THEY are now the danger? 🤷♂️🫶
@CFEntertains it'd be like having a blade that glows when orcs are near and giving it to orcs. At that point it's new title would be "glowing sword"
Danger motif is danger to the crew not from the crew.
I believe it’s actually only danger to Odysseus, isn’t it? (SCYLLA SPOILERS AFTER THIS LINE) I don’t think we hear it at all in relation to Scylla (could be wrong!) and I intercepted that to be because Odysseus was never in any danger from her, because they are the same and yada yada yada
@@pocketfullofbees7071The danger motif is apparently present in Scylla !! It's just a bit hard to catch
You can hear it when the fiddle starts playing very wildly. Like that sudden change up after Scylla says "Hello"
I had to listen to it over and over again to actually notice it. It's basically just the highest note from each measure played by the fiddle
@@DracoCragorei know it’s not a big deal, but technically it’s a violin. They’re “the same instrument”, but it’s about the genre. a fiddle is much more bluegrass and country.
Fun fan theory: the reason why siren penelope says "come play with our daughter" and not "come play with our son" is because there are only female sirens and they had a tiny siren play the girl.
Aw fuck a baby siren died?!
@@SleepyHollowKnightThey said it was a fan theory, but it’s hypothetically possible?
@@saddlebag oh
What a great theory.
@@SleepyHollowKnighti mean tbf odysseus DID say “if i gotta drop another infant from a wall in an instant so we all don’t die, then i’ll become the monster” so it’s not too far-fetched that he’d be capable of doing that
Welcome everybody, in this video we have
- Posiren
- 20+ minutes of Casper definitely having a crush on Poseidon at this point
- ..bees?
- “Jump in the water and kiss me ” - apparently Poseidon to Odysseus
- sushi saga
this took me out omg
@@CFEntertains basically, you’re a prophet about everything except Poseidon, first we got wet Hades instead of Poseidon and now Poseidon instead of sirens
Didn’t know Poseidon had a crush on Odysseus?🧐
@@fatema7-l4mhe just doesn’t know how to express it so he takes it out on Odysseus like a school boy. Hitting and throwing rocks and drowning all of his men 😌
Posundere 🔱uwu
Conclusion 1: Odysseus cannot
count
Conclusion 2: He's been away from for about 12 years or so.
Someone did the math on it under Jorge's "12 Long Years" video: 12 years was actually pretty accurate
@@voidfloof wasn't the war around 10 years then a couple more with the odyessy wacky adventure. Wouldn't be close to like 15years?
@@big3fanboy19 No, because he spend 7 years with Calypso, so 12 year seems quite accurate
@@columba_lyrics wait but the trojan war took around 10 years forgot about calypso 12 years 10+12=22years.
@@big3fanboy19 No, the Trojan War is apart. Yes, it lasted 10 years, but the return of Ulysses also lasted 10 years. In total, he was away from home for 20 years. When he says it's been 12 years, he means 10 years during the war + 2 years (at Circé especially in the original version)
So we have Wet Hades and now Posiren! 😂
In Casper’s defense in Greek mythology sirens aren’t sea creatures, but are in this are more akin to mermaids so if go by Ancient Greek rules Poseidon makes sense.
@@MrSmile078 Oh yeah, I was mostly talking about the funny names! Now I really wanna draw a Posiren based character… Damn creativity!
POSIREN-
@@MrSmile078 well yes but they do live at sea/small islands/reefs
It is my headcannon that Odysseus is always so busy being cunning and clever that he just can't calculate things in the calendar. He doesn't have the headspace for it. Even when he's not at sea, he's generally just not a calendar person. "We've been away from home for... hmm. Twelve years? I guess?" LOL
@hindymarkowitz1340 Odysseus at his palace being like “wow i can’t believe it’s been 22 years!” Penelope: Boy… 🤨
Telemachus: i think we should get him a calendar for a welcome home gift 🤪
YES! I love this headcanon so much:D
If you listen to the relationship between the vocals and the backing it suggests there’s a syllable missing. I think jorge originally wrote it as like 13 years or so but changed it after the Circe saga
Polites was keeping up with the calendar so he could remember everyone's birthdays.
Siren: "So jump in the water and KISS me!"
Casper: "It's Poseidon!"
Idk the thought of Poseidon, pretending to be someone else or not, asking Ody to kiss him is just so funny to me
Edit1: Also Flashy Hades Saga yay :D
Edit2: Also, can we all just agree to make Posiren a staying meme in the EPIC fandom? Like wet Hades
**imagine if this is what happened**
Poseidon (wearing a wig): Come kiss me, I’m totally your wife!
Odysseus: (leans down)
Poseidon: HAHA! (Grabs Odysseus and drowns him) dumbass
enemies to lovers ig
@@heatherlikesmusicals8018or maybe enemies AND lovers
"If he prefers his feet on the ground why did he become a captain in the navy" 😂
He is the king of an island nation, who was duty-bound to join the Trojan war (by gods did he try to avoid it, feigned insanity and everything so he could be home instead and watch his son grow, but the gods willed otherwise), so... sailing happens.
Don’t forget Agamemnon threatened baby Telemachus with a dagger to foil Odysseus’s craziness scheme. From my perspective Odysseus’s worst antagonist isn’t Poseidon, its the Son of Atreus
@@jungletherainwing1471 nah, Agamemnon was just enforcing treaty obligations that Odysseus himself came up with in the first place. Arguably no one would’ve shown up for the Trojan war if odysseus hadn’t formed a damn NATO alliance around Helen’s marriage.
The real Takeaway of the Homeric epics should be that Paris can go fuck himself and his dumb fucking eyesocket.
No I don’t irrationally hate Paris because my parents almost named me after him, why do you ask?
@@jungletherainwing1471pretty sure that wasn't Agamemnon, but a different guy that Odysseus actually framed for treason (with the help of Diomedes) during the Trojan war, and had executed as revenge for threatening his son.
@@garethmorton5620 Yeah, the guy was Palamedes and basically was a more op Odysseus. When he went to Ithaca to collect him, Ody pretended to be a crazy servant tending the fields. So palamedes took telemachus and placed him in front of the animals that he was using, forcing Odysseus to stop the act and save his son. During the war Palamedes managed to convince the king of thrace to send food to the greeks, something that Odysseus had previously failed. This, among other things, made Odysseus jealous so while palamedes was away Odysseus captured a trojan soldier, buried a bag of coin infront of palamedes' tent and made the prisoner falsely confess that palamedes was working for the trojans. When Palamedes returned, he was executed for treason
"He will chase you high and low, so find a place he'll never go, the place where you must go..."
Has the same beat as...
"He will burn your house and throne, He'll find you wherever you go, The gods will make him know..."
THANK YOU!!!! i’ve been ripping my hair out trying to figure out why it was so familiar tysm
I thought I was imagining that that part sounded so familiar 😅 glad to have it confirmed!
EXACTLY! I remember constantly mixing the lyrics while im singing from memory and i knew it wasn't just a coincidence
Was trying to find this comment! I knew it was familiar
Oooooh so it all connects!
Siren song = I see a song of past romance
Scylla Throat = I see the sacrifice of man
Mutiny = I see portrayals of betrayal
Lighting Bolt = And a brother's final stand
I thought the lightning bolt was gonna be "I see u on the brink of death, I see u draw ur final breath" considering the animatic on the live stream
I think his "final breath" is him drowning before Calypso saved him.
@@alexandralugo1743 yeee, that would make sense
The song titles from this saga are rumored to be what the ghost choir sings in No Longer You. If that's true, then that's another reason for me to LOVE this musical
"I know underwater there are packs of you hiding... Yeah I know exactly what you are - Poseidon"
Casper: No, that's.....
Me: The sirens? yea we kno-
Casper: P O S E I D O N
First we ✨ slayed ✨ in our own war 💅
The ✨slayed✨ always gets me 😭💀
Odyse-yassss
Get home to your ✨Queen ✨👑🙏🙏🙏
But now we’ll be the ones who SLAY 💅
@@pocketfullofbees7071odesy-yass TOOK ME OUT OMG😂😂
Funny thing, Casper, you'll notice the LACK of a Penelope motif or instrument in Suffering (aside form the beginning, which kinda resembles the motif I guess). This is intentional. The sirens are failing to convincingly imitate Penelope.
Exactly. The distortion at the beginning also can be interpreted as the sirens trying to get Penelopes voice just right.
@@Dani_77709 Funny thing; the sirens' Penelope motif is a note off, but the real weirdness is that it's so synth-y. In EPIC, mortal music isn't electrical or synthetic. This is another clue that supernatural entities are trying to co-opt Penelope's theme.
The fact that, even if you and Mortius are reacting separatly, you somehow managed to put your reactions on the same day and one after the other😂 Can't wait for it!
That is 100% on purpose! We will still chain-react to keep that collaborative element alive, but we are doing the reactions themselves separately ! ❤️
@@CFEntertains That's honestly a good deal, we still jump from one premiere to another like normally. It would've been interesting to see you react to it together for the first time, but it's fair to wait for the animatics- WHICH! Are coming out SUPPER. QUICKLY! The Epic fandom waist no time!
Get in the water ....
Get in the water ....
I’ll make tidal waves so profound…
All of Ithaca will drown….
Lol it comes with the "vengeance" 😂😂😂 the prophet is doing prophet things
@@triciamitchell7585 Get in the water...
Get in the water...
Get in the water and kiss me
21:47 - If anyone is wandering about the beeswax thing, i looked it up.
In ancient greece it was used for writing tablets ,but it could be there for wood preserwation (the ship is made of wood afterall), and due to the fact that we know archers were a part of the crew (Odysseus was also an archer, but from what I remember he left his bow at home), they could have been using it for the bow's strings (wax ptortects the string from wear and tear, i think).
Do take this with a grain of salt as I am not an expert lol.
Edit: Okay, nevermind - according to an article I found, they got it from Circe as a gift
1:50
"Then drop in the water and kiss me"
CF :"Nah, hm hm, it's poseidon"
*Me imagining the situation*
Poseidon in a dress "Come give me a smooch"
With his wife's makeup
the melody that plays when Scylla is introduced is Circe's theme. in mythology, Scylla and Circe have a history (no, not of that kind unfortunately)
"I remember actions of passion, I have been in love once before"
@@MM4TuTactually that's kind of linked because Circe transformed Scylla because of this man she loved so...
@@columba_lyrics
I learnd about it after listening to the song 'Scylla' for the first time because I didn't know anything about her, but Circes lyric only clicked for me today :)
If you listen to the lyrics in Scylla, it also basically confirms her history with Circe too. Every single line she sings has a double meaning applying to both Odysseus and herself, revealing her backstory. In the beginning of the song, she sings about feelings of shame, being betrayed and losing bonds, like when Circe betrayed her and turned her into a monster, tearing her away from her old life. And the chorus is about her own transformation in the bathing pool: "Drown in your sorrows and fears / Choke on your blood and your tears / Bleed til you've run out of years ... Give up your honor and faith / Live up your life as a wraith / Die in the blood where you bathe". I love the song and how it paints Odysseus and Scylla as similar because they both were unwillingly turned into monsters but willingly embraced their newfound natures in order to "do what it takes to survive".
The Greeks didn't make the usual sacrifice to Poseidon before embarking back to Ithaca, despite all the disrespect they did to him and his followers during the war itself.
But what they did do was disrespect him by using HIS symbols and pretending that the horse was a gift to HIS temple.
@@anniefemmas5097I'm pretty sure they said it was a gift to ATHENA not POSEIDON 😭
I 100% believe that Polities was in charge of the calendar (he kept track of everyone’s birthdays). Once he was gone everyone just started guessing the date, including Odysseus.
In the original Odyssey, Circe gives them provisions when they leave her island, so maybe that’s where they got the beeswax from?
Circe is also the one that tells Odysseus to give the men beeswax and to have them tie him to the mast so this seems plausible
Don't know if anyone already said this. But The start of suffering is the only time we hear Penelope's name sung in that familiar melody without that accompanying viola. Which I think is Jorge telling us through music that this Penelope is fake. It's almost familiar, hitting a similar vibe, but still foreign or missing that element. Which I think is an amazing little detail.
When the Seiren sings “He will find you wherever you go” is an exact copy of Zeus from The Horse and The Infant
The siren says "He will chase you high and low"
@@jurassicfreak2579 right sorry, he will chase you high and low, so find some place he’ll never go, that entire line is almost an exact from The Horse and The infant
I love the fact that you pronounced Scylla the Greek way and then called her a "sea b*tch" because Scylla in Greek literally means b*tch lol
Wait.... her name really means that???
@@maisathedragonartist3364 yeap in Greek a male dog is σκύλος or Skylos in the way it's pronounced and the female dog is σκύλα basically Skyla (Scylla)
I love how Jorge is just owning it now. Let's just say the Iphigenia and preparations for the war took 1-2yrs in Jorge's EPIC.
Nah it was just a really long stooOooOrm
@@draeonic Or they really did hang out with Circe before going to the Underworld 😊
I like to think that Ody is just incredibly bad with time and numbers, it’s the funniest interpretation:D (the time in the sea may feel differently, of course, but not “two additional years” differently lmao)
@@skyephoenix801In the source material the crew did stay in Aeaea (Circe’s island) for at least a whole year.
@@skyephoenix801 Yeah but not before he was unloading on her about it having been twelve long years
19:42 FUN FACT!
The lyric here is slightly different than before! Before it was
(He/We) (is/are) the man made monster
Now it’s:
(He/We) (is/are) the man-made monster
There’s a hyphen now! Which means grammatically, the men are now talking about how Odysseus man-made himself into a monster unlike before where they were just saying they’ve turned into monsters.
WAIT I DIDNT KNOW THAT OMG
@@nikpopnanime RIGHT? You only know if you look at the lyrics.
holy crap
THE FREAKING 12 YEARS!
Canonically correct according to the Odyssey. It just isn't that clear in the lyrics so it jolts people. But it's canon accurate.
@@rhov-anionnah, the war took 10 years, they haven’t been at sea for 2 years.
What we found out this video:
Jesus angered Wet Hades, talkes to Posiren about going to Skilla.
I mean in his defense, that's the actual greek way of pronouncing Scylla
I'm pretty sure there wasn't a danger motif because Odysseus and his crew weren't in any danger, as they said "you are a threat no longer"
So here's something that's worth noting: Different Beast follows the same story structure as Polyphemus and Survive. It starts with the knock of an arrow. A sudden reveal of a greater threat. The ones being threatened plea for mercy. And then those pleas being answered with murder under the pretense of justice.
We've been away from home for twelve (citation needed) years
Twelve mumblemumble something years
Citation:
Homer. The Odyssey. Translated by Robert Fagles, Viking, 1996.
Year 1: pirating around the Mediterranean, Cyclopes
Year 2: the storm, Circe
Year 3: leaving Circe, monsters, cows, Calypso
Year 3-10: Calypso music intensifies
I'm sorry, I'm new to the fandom, but why is everyone so weirded out about "12 years"? I'm confused why it's a meme. It's accurate, so I'm confused.
@@rhov-anion Canonically, in Epic, at this point it’s supposed to have been more like 10 years since Odysseus and his crew left Ithaca, fought at Troy and then started to sail home. However, in the song ”Other ways” in the Circe saga, Odysseus says that they have been gone twelve long years, and Jorge has said himself that he made a mistake about how long time it’s been.
The fandom mostly makes a lighthearted joke about it, like Odysseus not having a calendar or just feeling like it’s been longer than it really has.
It’s because Jorge miscounted in the Circe saga and said 12 years when it hadn’t been 12 years yet. So he included “12 years or so” here as an Easter egg to his mistake and it’s become canon that Odysseus sucks at counting. That’s why we’re freaking out about “12 years or so”. It’s a callback to him misremembering the year count when he wrote the Circe saga
@@rhov-anionso when Odysseus first reaches Circes island, it’s been about a year since the Trojan War. As it was towards the beginning of year 2 of the journey. So it would’ve been 11 years give or take a month or so, since he’d last been home. But Jorge messed up and said 12 years. It was 12 years when he left Circes island, not when he arrived. Jorge got that wrong and didn’t realize until fans asked what he meant by 12 years since they’d just gotten to the island. So Jorge saying “12 years or so” is a little fix it/Easter egg to his miscounting
At this point, with the number of Jorge's creative liberties, I just accept that between Cyclops and Ocean, there were 2 years, possibly due to posiedon trying to stop him.
Edit: what I should say is that I mean 2 years since the end of the Trojan War during Ocean. Then they crash land at Aeaea, circe's island. Then maybe a month until Thunder. This dose go against the year spent at Aeaea in the Odyssey, but maybe Odysseus was actually trying to get home ASAP
Actually, this is canon in the Odyssey! They spend a year on Circe's island, and presumably a year sailing in and out of the underworld. It HAS actually been twelve years.
@@aadityayanamandra8846 And it wasn’t like Aeaea, the Lotus eaters, and the cyclops cave were all just a day sailing away from Troy and from each other.
I think it’s a lot easier to put the extra time in full speed ahead than anywhere else, but I guess between cyclops and ocean could work as well, either way, we’re cutting out two years of mostly travel time
@@ezracohen6020The cyclops saga ends with them leaving Polyphemus's cave, storm saga starts as they're about to reach home the first time. "Our home's in sight/This storm's our final fight!"
Which means their entire first journey home was apparently uneventful besides the cyclops fiasco until Poseidon came in to fuck shit up.
Fun to think about just how much trouble came out of Ody not being capable of not doxxing himself.
@@SantosoWijaya Canonically, it took a year to reach Sicily and the Cyclopes, then a year from Polyphemus' cave to Circe, a year with Circe, and then... um...
spoiler...
seven years blah blah if you know you know so 3 years total sailing lost
Wet hades left time for sky hades
Light Hades as opposed to Dark Zeus (one of Hades epithets)
I love that he caught on to Penelope's instrument (which is a viola) not being present. BECAUSE IT ISN'T PENELOPE!!!
Odysseus: How do I get back to my island?
Siren: To evade Posaidon you will have to travel to places he avoids - thankfully now with *Skilla* you can find hundreds of ways for the very low cost
Skilla shares information very crucial for navigation in affordable options.
With a minimum of 6 men per day, you have access to a premium subscription.
Ok so remember the “Monster motif” you pointed out with Mortius?
Hmmm, I wonder what the crew sings in the background at the end of Different Beast…
THIS! They also sing it during Remember Them when they attack Polyphemus
@@ChelTheNerdyPrude oh no way, I’m not very good at picking up when the actual motifs are happening unless it’s a one to one thing (and even then sometimes I miss them), so I guessed that the monster motif was probably in this one, but I had no idea that it was in the songs before the underworld saga
Casper, Ithaca is an island. Completely surrounded by water. I'm sure he would have wanted to walk ig he wanted, but Ody's sadly not Jesus lol
Re’ beeswax - It was widely used in Ancient Greece, often for cosmetics, writing and artwork, but also in lighting, medicine and wound treatment, plus treatment of materials such as leather, much like olive oil was.
It can also be used to coat bowstrings.
So it’s very much something that soldiers and sailors might have carried.
POSIREN GANG rise up
Odysseus shoots the siren with his bow! And the sound that was made when he called her a siren was her hissing at him.
Also, super off topic, but World of Warcraft reference???? City of Orgrimmar??
And Singing Hades.
First we had Wet Hades, now we have the Posirens. Sweet.
*We sing in unison*
POSIREN! POSIREN! POSIREN! POSIREN! 🎵🌊🔱
The reason that i think the "Danger is near" motif don't play on suffering, It's because of the fact that oddyseus said himself, that HE ALREADY KNEW that there were sirens in the area, and they had bee wax in their ears, preventing them from falling into their song.
In other words, they knew what was happening, and just let the sirens to attract them to get information, he had everything under control, he was just waiting to get the information he needed, so then he could go different beast mode lol
Great video as always! ❤⚡
YES!!!! FINALLY SOMEONE ASKS WHERE THE HECK THEY GOT BEESWAX 😂🎉
They got it from Circe. And even if that weren't the case, having beeswax on the ship would make sense because of how useful it is
1) Posiedon isnt necessarily scared of Scylla, but the monster near Scylla was turned into a monster due to a conflict between him and Zues. Probably a lot of guilt and reluctance to see her.
2)Troy was in Modern day Turkey, getting there from Greece by foot is not impossible, but nearly so, especially with an army. Not to mention the political issues with marching said army across several empires and countries.
Wet Hades and the PoSirens is a good band name :D
"Mmm-mmm. No it's poseidon." POOKIE WTF- WHY WOULD YOU PUT THE IMAGE OF POSEIDON SITTING ON A ROCK WEARING A WIG IN MY MIND AHHHHHHHHH😭😭
Posiren X Wet hades is REAL!
For the problem of walking, Ithaca is on an island
"SELL THESE HOUSES TO WHO BEN, FUCKING WET HADES?" 😂
⚡️ THUNDER SAGA HYPE
Yippee
I feel like the sirens would offer Casper to bring back polites to take his suffering
YES!! Different Beast Is my new favorite! Can’t wait
It’s not my favorite, but I think it does exactly what it sets out to do amazingly, it explains the confusion of suffering (I figured sirens pretty quickly, but if you don’t figure that out different beast is really necessary for that), and it shows how Odysseus has become the monster (rawr rawr rawr), and the way they show it with the sirens is really cool because his decision is ultimately right to kill the sirens, but the way it is made and the way he kills them shows him being a monster, and then as we go on through the saga we get him making choices that are harder and harder to justify, killing the Sirens who absolutely would not spare him or any other sailor, yeah I can get behind that, an active sacrifice of six of the crew members so that the rest can all survive, harder to justify but sensible if looked at the right way, sacrificing the entire crew so he can get home is almost entirely unjustifiable from an outside position but from the perspective of him being a monster, the choice makes sense
The Oh No always sends me. It was the tone i used when i used to work customer service and had a difficult one
Bees wax was commonly used to help make old wooden ships water tight, keeping a small supply to maintain the ship was common…
The part when the siren sings: "He will chase you down and low" reminds me to the same melody of the song "The horse and the infant" when Zeus sings "The gods will make him know, this is the will of the gods". I don't know, I just find that interesting.
4:47 to be fair, Jay went on record saying the siren song got "cut" and he couldn't find a way for the sirens to be in the musical (which was likely an intentional lie to make the shock factor that much better)
"Don't do it, it's Poseidon" Help Im now picturing Poseidon in a Penelope costume (Gigi's design)
Everytime you swear I am expecting Odysseus' "What?" From puppeteer lol Loved the reaction mate! Can't wait to see the Scylla, Mutiny, and Thunderbringer reactions!
Posiren strikes
Answering your questions:
1 - Ithaca, Odisseus' home is an Island (that is mentioned quickly before in the musical) so you can't just ride or walk there.
2 - About fishing: I know that's not common knowledge today but in antiquity people would know... Yes, you can an often do fish during your travel to resupply with food but you can't just live out of fish. In a years long you'd need vitamins and nutrients that you can't get from fish. You need fruit, vegetables, meat. Entire crews of sailors would die at sea from sickness when they started to run out on it. It was one of the gratest dangers during the exploration of the Atlantic.
So, yeah, supplies doesn't mean just food... Well, mostly it does, but you need different kinds of food.
I realized that the Different Beast song, when the crew starts singing, really brings to mind Poseidon's line of them being a "pack of wolves"
13:27 Well Ithica is an island so you can't avoid water entirely. the BEST you could do would be going from Kyllini and then across to Skala on Kefalonia then up to around Tselendata to take a VERY quite trip over to the island of Ithica.
Kep in mind that all the traveling TO troy was done by boat so they wouldn't have the things needed to travel across land easily
In a short Jorge made he explained that the biggest hint that the siren Penelope was not the real Penelope in Suffering, was that her instrument the Viola, was not used
I dont know if anyone has commented this yet, but when the siren sings "This is your only way home, the lair of Scylla," Circe's theme is playing on piano in the background. This is hinting to the original Greek myth of Scylla. Scylla was originally a nymph on Circe's island, and everything started when the hero Glaucus arrived. They both fell in love with him, but Glaucus liked Scylla more than Circe. So Circe got jealous and poured a potion into the sea where Scylla was bathing, truning her into the monster she is now. I thought it was a subtle but clever nod to the myth so i wanted to share it with you guys.
The sounds at 19:28 im pretty sure is meant to be the siren he is talking to hissing at him after the reveal.
Fun facts: around this time Odysseus actually has been away for about 12 years. He stays on Circe’s island for a year either before the underworld saga or before this saga.
Scylla is said in some stories to be Poseidon’s ex turned into a monster by Poseidon’s wife
17:30 the transition from being sad to terrified and shocked from Odysseus on his face😭 Odysseus wasn’t really joking when he said he’ll become a monster😭
I NEED an animatic where Poseidon is wearing a cheap short wig on top of his long hair, muscular chest with starfish and laying on top of a rock singing. PLEASE! 😂
a lovely "back and forth between penelope and jorge" 😂
I love the EPIC trio: Mr. The Odyssey, Politics, and Yuri Lowenthal
So they cannot walk home as you suggested. Ithaca, Odysseus’ kingdom, is an island. So while he could theoretically make some of the journey on the mainland, he’d still have to go through the sea to make it home
I love watching people react to Suffering and seeing the joy from hearing Penelope change to suspicion immediately after she asks Odysseus to jump in the water 😂
So... not sure if anyone said it already, but... Ithaca is an island... so walk is not an option. And... Poseidon is also the god responsible for earthquakes, so I'm not sure you're entirely safe on land.
good point
There’s two fun fan theories I love and that’s that Ody doesn’t know how long he’s been sailing cause it was on polites to keep track of their dates and the calendar. And the sirens saw ody at a distance and were like okay he’s got huge girl dad energy.
Quick correction: Odysseus didn't become the captain in a navy. He's a military captain (well, their king, but functionally "captain" in the army), it's just that they have to use ships to sail from Ithaca to other lands they fight in.
I think it should be noted that Odysseus didn’t exactly sign up to be a captain in the navy. He is the king of Ithica, an island nation. As such you could imagine its military is rather… naval. In addition, the reason any of this happened was because Odysseus was part of the mutual protection pact thing that all of Helen’s suitors joined to protect people from getting jealous of whoever she married. And Odysseus even actively tried to prevent having to sail over to Troy (and as a consequence, going through the Odyssey) but his tricks were foiled when Agamemnon threatened Telemachus’s life. So it could’ve been possible that Odysseus became a naval captain while being scared of the water, it just isn’t the case
For the beeswax question, i think they already had the stuff in stock bc its pretty important for maintainance. They probably melted beeswax into different cloths making them waterproof, hell, maybe even doing that to the sails. (Pls do furthur research, i just know of the use of beeswax for cloths and food preservation, and maybe thread too)
Relevant to this song - It’s also used to coat bowstrings!
Unfortunately for Odysseus, Ithaca is an island, so alas, no walking~
Casper: "Oh! Scylla's the ugly ocean *thunder*, okay."
Me: "You did not! You did not just diss her like that so casually."
Ever since the recent short from Jorge, I've been listening for the Open Arms mallets in Suffering
I love how thoroughly you break down the music
(Also, 17:26 the way you can see the _moment_ Polites' death crosses his mind, lol)
Poor Odysseous, getting attacked by seductive wet Hades😭😭
Fun fact, Different Beasts starts the same way that Polyphemus does, with the arrow shot, and ends the same way that Remember Them does, with the soldier's woah chant (which I think is supposed to be like a monster motif), Odysseus' name being said, and then that low bass note.
Came for Iko, love the reaction
I enjoyed seeing Casper do the exact same thing my friend did, assuming “Penelope” was
THIS IS HOW I LEARN YOU LIVE IN THE CZECH REPUBLIC?!? My Czech heart is screaming
I did mention it at around the end of the stream; but I'm curious about your thoughts:
is Odyssey's "Kill them all!" lines not in the same tune as Athena's last bit of My Goodbye?
Full screen Casper epic reaction letssssssss goooo
The fact that suffering starts with Penelope's motif but not her instrument...
Jorge said how in suffering he didn’t use any of Penelope’s instruments. So that’s how we know it’s not her.
BAHAHHAHAHA YOUR REACTION AT "LET THEM DROWN" 💀
I LOVE IT!! 😭✨️
Technically Odysseus is not a captain in the navy, he is the King of Ithaca and thus commander-in-chief of the Ithacan military as a whole. Though obviously the whole water thing was just a bluff.
Thank you for the video, the thunder saga has definitely been one of my favourites and listening to your thoughts is always insightful and entertaining
The hype and excitement is so tangible from moment 1, wholesome bouncing lmao thank you for sharing
11:29 I know this timestamp is a couple seconds ahead from the topic of the danger motif but, when you go into the second song, it's almost like they can't hear the danger because the crew and Ody have beeswax in their ears