Yes, there is harmonic distortion from woofers, and it increases greatly at high excursions. Obviously, when the voice coil ends start to travel into the magnetic gap, the transfer function from coil current to cone position will lose linearity, but even before that happens, there can be audible harmonic distortion. Whether or not you notice it, will depend partly on the spectral content of the music you are playing. For example, a bass solo will be more subject to noticeable distortion. How important this distortion is, depends entirely on the music you're listening to, the level at which you're playing it, and the capability of your speakers. There is also intermodulation distortion (IM), which can be even more noticeable. Part of this is the Doppler distortion which Paul mentioned, and part is simply due to the same non-linearities in the woofer output, which cause the harmonic distortion. Doppler distortion manifests as frequency modulation. For example, if the woofer is moving +- 1/4 inch at 30Hz while also reproducing a 1KHz tone, the upper tone modulates between 997Hz and 1003Hz. Amazingly, very noticeable levels of IM also occur in human hearing, at sound levels well below the limits of high end audio gear. I remember long ago, one afternoon at a college dormitory, when I was doing some frequency response measurements on a set of speakers: I had them going at maybe 20W per channel, steady 30 Hz, and noticed very obvious distortion in spoken voices during conversation between myself and another person present; it made other sound sources seem "garbled," for lack of a better word. I even got a complaint from a neighbor down the hall, who had been listening to his stereo, and thought I was causing it to distort. He came running down the hall, exclaiming "Hey, you're reverberating my stereo!" - you should have seen the shocked look on his face as he started talking, then gradually realized that it was his hearing which was affected!
Loudspeakers all produce more distortion and nonlinearities than the amps driving them. Some lesser than others. Bass distortion can come from many sources...port nonlinearities, excursion limits, compliance probs, bad enclosure, bad crossover, non-piston area use, etc. Competent design tries to balance all these issues. Good video, Paul.
Thanks for adding factual comments. You`ve enriched your content! Recently, we`ve gone through a fierce rainstorm in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil, nobody had ever seen. Lots of real low bass came out by Mother Nature out loud!
Hey Paul! I have heard the same thing about the more movement of a speaker cone, the more distortion introduced. (low or high frecuency it doesn't matter) Sean Casey of Zu Audio said this in an interview in stereophile and also to Steve Guttenberg in a video of his channel. I think the question of Antonio is all about this exact issue. By the way, great videos as always!! Thank you
Yes, this is what I grasped also. So what they were referring was "cone movement" Is i the cone movement with regards to the cabinet? Or the cone material itself? I am a bit confused... Thanks!
I actually encountered this problem when recording in a cathedral. The reverb returning had a lower “tuning” then the original choir and organ. Creating an interesting soundscape. Researching this if composers of gregorian chant and the like knew this and their harmonies were made to accomodate this could be interesting (because of the inter harmonics that will occur). Choirs that are not used to this effect can be heard as going lower in pitch during a-capella singing because they are adjusting to the reverb tails they are hearing back from the room sound.
Interestingly, Doppler is what makes real reverberant spaces sound "modulated," as though electronically within a digital reverb algorithm or such. I frequently tell people that impulse responses made from real spaces or hardware reverb processors still do not capture the essence of being in the space, since there are timing distortions taking place within the air that actually affect the pitch of the echoes being recycled. I don't believe that is pseudoscience, I believe that is what happens to sound in a real space.
I think what Antonio is seeing when he's watching a video of the woofer moving is actually a illusion made by the camera. The shutter speed of the camera differs from the speed of the woofer. Thus making it appear that the woofer is violently shaking. In reality it is not. And learn this back in the day building drivers we called it "Wofford tricks"
That is Rolling Shutter (AKA the jello effect), where each frame of video is scanned from top to the bottom one or a few lines at a time, when you pan the camera, the vertical objects lean over like they are made of jello, a speaker looks like the top an bottom are alternating, but they are not, this is all caused by the camera, if the driver actually moved like that, the voice coil would bind on the pole piece. www.audioholics.com/loudspeaker-design/loudspeaker-drivers/copy_of_diagram_polk.jpg/image_preview2 So, lets say the driver in pulled in when the the camera starts scanning at the top, by the time it gets to the bottom the driver is fully out, then the next scan repeats the exact same timing, the cone will appear to sit there with the top pushed in, and the bottom pulled out, now, change the frequency that drives the speaker slightly, and you will see the top and bottom alternate, double the original frequency and you'll see the top and bottom come out and the center pushed in... Explained better here: ruclips.net/video/dNVtMmLlnoE/видео.html here's a nice example of Rolling Shutter on a speaker, listen to what the base frequency does to the wave pattern, it looks like standing waves: ruclips.net/video/pJfmWz0rUTs/видео.html In slow-mo: ruclips.net/video/xPK03m6ij38/видео.html
Thanks Groovy Dude for your comment and suggestion. Actually...after submitting my question, I realize I misunderstood some concepts from watching another video (Jon Atkinson interviewing Sean Casey about driver design) so I worded my question incorrectly. What I was interested to know was the woofer driver material itself - when it is bouncing up and down, if the woofer original shape changes when music is played, would that create distortions? In other words, would a speaker with stiffer material be better? e.g. ceramic vs paper
Back in the 1940's Klipsch discovered that when a woofer moves a lot it creates distortion. He found that using a large woofer that moves very little and using the walls on both sides to acoustically couple the corner located horn would produce a low clean bass. The sensitivity of the speaker was something like 105db with 1 watt of power. Efficiency and sensitivity are 2 different things. You can have a highly efficient speaker that has a low sensitivity or a low efficiency speaker that has a high sensitivity. There are ratings called XMAX, a one way movement (sometimes they cheat and say 2 way movement to make a bigger number) of the woofer measurement that creates 10% distortion. The measurement might be something like .39 inches as in an Electro Voice EVX-180 18" woofer. The EV woofer will move something like an inch and a half stop to stop.
Fascinating. I think if the bass is pushed too hard then the driver will constrain it / clip it and that'll give ya harmonic distortion. Ya right about intermodulation distortion too - thatll come if other tones are played with the bass. Bass alone would be just the harmonics. Doppler though - whoo wee i didnt think of that one! Whoo wee rick.
In my experience the low volume distortion is due to the subwoofer frequency interference with midrange speaker cone. Make sure midrange speaker is covered within the enclosure. Most of the time it happens when you use a fullrange instead of a smaller midrange. Check this way by disconnecting midrange but not remove it see how the woofer frequency disturbing it. Almost it will be moving like a passive cone😀 so make sure midrange is fully covered from rear 👍
Kyle Stevens Paul is highly intuitive and that is why he is constantly going off on tangents. Intuition sees patterns and how things are interconnected or related, so there is always something to add for greater depth of understanding or clarification.
For the nerdy, in a two frequency example doppler intermodulation distortion results In the higher frequency being frequency modulated by the lower frequency. Intermodulation distortion caused by the cone nearing it's limits is of the amplitude modulation type and at double the lower frequency because the cone nears two limits per cycle (forward and back). Larger cones don't have to travel as far as smaller cones to move the same amount of air. With this in mind they will tend to produce lower intermodulation and harmonic distortion for a given bass response.
Actually drivers construction has a lot of opportunities to cause distortion. Non-linear magnetic field when excursion is near maximum. Driver cone is not stiff enough at high loads, so it changes its shape during excursion. Edge of a driver cone is mounted via some rubber like material, so when it moves with long cone excursion it creates tension on the cone edge, that causes distorsion as well. Magnet and cone coil interraction forces are not infinite, but depend on kind of magnet and electric energy creating variable coil magnet force. If electric power is less per created SPL (sound pressure level) then driver magnetic force is less, so interraction with constant magnet is less. It leads to less control of coil/cone, and more distortion as direct consequence of high sensitivity. All of it can be seen on woofer drivers because their cone size is big, and all construction defects are more expressed.
Low bass high excursion subwoofer creates cone movement sound call distortion experienced on low bass thats why sound engineer maintained a perfect spl to low the amount of low bass
@Paul McGowen or @PS Audio, I'm trying to use a portable tube style music player (with great bass) as a portable battery-op amp for my bass. The problem is that with any volume, the sound comes out distorted. If I play an MP3, the bass sounds great, but not when I run my bass, through a portable battery-op mixer. I'm curious if there is an easy way to address this? Is there a filter or something that I need to be able to do this? FYI, I thought about buying a battery-op bass amp, but they are incredibly costly, so I'd rather avoid that if possible.
Thanks for answering my question, Paul! Very much appreciated! :) After submitting my question, I realize I misunderstood some concepts from watching another video (Jon Atkinson interviewing Sean Casey about driver design) so I worded my question incorrectly. What I was interested to know was the woofer driver material itself - when it is bouncing up and down, if the woofer original shape changes when music is played, would that create distortions? In other words, would a speaker with stiffer material be better? e.g. ceramic vs paper Thank you again!
Paul, when it comes to subwoofers and midrange drivers, what would you recomend or whats better for sound quality reproduction on a say a 100 what per channel home receiver, a soft suspension or a stiff suspencion driver?. also on sensability, look for a 87 or a 90, 92 db?
An efficient speaker can have the lowest, loudest, & clearest bass. Especially if the speakers are placed closed to a brick wall. The brick wall helps in 2 ways. The bass is stronger against a solid wall. Speakers can be placed closer to brick, because the brick acts as a diffusor. An efficient speaker will have both louder & clearer bass. In my setup a subwoofer is too boomy, it's unneeded. With the speakers close to a brick diffused wall, I have all the bass I want Plus the bass is more clear than the bass from a subwoofer. Plus the bass is more louder than a subwoofer, because usually the bigger subwoofers, the loudness of the bass usually gets quieter at the very lowest frequency extentions. If you want great imaging between the speakers, place on the wall between the speakers a big piece of flat glass.
But if you have a subwoofer that is very powerful compared to your loudspeakers, doesn't it prevent it from losing loudness at low frequencies? And the subwoofer helps you cover the frequencies the speaker is not capable of playing (except if the speaker is really high end and goes down to like 20 h.). It could be quite important if you use it for movies and shows.
How about when your woofers lower the pressure in the room, pulling the lesser (wimpier) speakers right out of their cabinets? Midrange and tweeters get far too much attention.
I wonder if he meant the enclosure of the subwoofer moving. I had a sub sat combo for my computer like 15+ years ago. The driver was too powerful compared to the enclosure, so the enclosure would move to and mess up the sound of low end. I added a big book to the top of the sub and it totally cleaned up the bass.
More on the driver material itself. If the driver warp during flexing, vs the entire driver moving forward and back. Not sure if that makes sense? Thank you!
thanks Paul for doing these videos :) to give my personal experience with low bass causing distortion, i have heard kind of this thing back when i had a huge subwoofer and the low hz made the whole room pressurize and compress the eardrums so that each push of the woofer changed the tone of whole music. almost like you went a bit deaf each pressurised cycle, quite odd sensation. i cant remember the exact hz it happens, but its was low, between 15 to 20hz i think.
@@jbr84tx i seen some testing of infrasound and seen no recorded effects, nor did my own experiments fair better. they just feel nice to me. at least with normal speakers, there exist extreme spl car audio that could possibly get there.
I think the questioner was trying to find out if a more efficient (larger) bass unit would make less distortion as it's cone and motor assembly doesn't have to make such large excursions to move the same amount of air as a (smaller) less efficient unit. To get an idea of how much drive units can safely move check this out: ruclips.net/video/ZEBICv7QPDM/видео.html Scary and quite impressive! Cheers. M
Cool guy. Genius, a romanticist term, I like it but I would put it down to subjective taste of what is the best speaker in the world. It is not so mich about objective knowledge. I am sure our tastes would differ a lot. I love musicality and not so much the highest resolution, neither spatial nor temporal. I love naturaleness AND dynamics whicj is hard to find in the market. If it was not for the dynamics I would be happy with a pair of big Harbeth monitors. There are only a few companies who can achieve that goal of life like music, coherence, naturalness and raw dynamics such as Living Voice or Odeon. Guys, learn to rely solely on your tastes cause there is no best speaker in the world. Just good mistakes, bad mistakes and personal preferences.
![ATEEZ(에이티즈) - [GOLDEN HOUR : Part.2] Preview](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/X4PfgRPBUVo/mqdefault.jpg)
Yes, there is harmonic distortion from woofers, and it increases greatly at high excursions. Obviously, when the voice coil ends start to travel into the magnetic gap, the transfer function from coil current to cone position will lose linearity, but even before that happens, there can be audible harmonic distortion. Whether or not you notice it, will depend partly on the spectral content of the music you are playing. For example, a bass solo will be more subject to noticeable distortion. How important this distortion is, depends entirely on the music you're listening to, the level at which you're playing it, and the capability of your speakers.
There is also intermodulation distortion (IM), which can be even more noticeable. Part of this is the Doppler distortion which Paul mentioned, and part is simply due to the same non-linearities in the woofer output, which cause the harmonic distortion. Doppler distortion manifests as frequency modulation. For example, if the woofer is moving +- 1/4 inch at 30Hz while also reproducing a 1KHz tone, the upper tone modulates between 997Hz and 1003Hz.
Amazingly, very noticeable levels of IM also occur in human hearing, at sound levels well below the limits of high end audio gear. I remember long ago, one afternoon at a college dormitory, when I was doing some frequency response measurements on a set of speakers: I had them going at maybe 20W per channel, steady 30 Hz, and noticed very obvious distortion in spoken voices during conversation between myself and another person present; it made other sound sources seem "garbled," for lack of a better word. I even got a complaint from a neighbor down the hall, who had been listening to his stereo, and thought I was causing it to distort. He came running down the hall, exclaiming "Hey, you're reverberating my stereo!" - you should have seen the shocked look on his face as he started talking, then gradually realized that it was his hearing which was affected!
Loudspeakers all produce more distortion and nonlinearities than the amps driving them. Some lesser than others. Bass distortion can come from many sources...port nonlinearities, excursion limits, compliance probs, bad enclosure, bad crossover, non-piston area use, etc. Competent design tries to balance all these issues. Good video, Paul.
Thanks for adding factual comments. You`ve enriched your content! Recently, we`ve gone through a fierce rainstorm in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil, nobody had ever seen. Lots of real low bass came out by Mother Nature out loud!
ATC are 85dB and they have great bass with loads of bass driver excursion.
Hey Paul! I have heard the same thing about the more movement of a speaker cone, the more distortion introduced. (low or high frecuency it doesn't matter) Sean Casey of Zu Audio said this in an interview in stereophile and also to Steve Guttenberg in a video of his channel. I think the question of Antonio is all about this exact issue. By the way, great videos as always!! Thank you
Yes, this is what I grasped also. So what they were referring was "cone movement" Is i the cone movement with regards to the cabinet? Or the cone material itself? I am a bit confused... Thanks!
over-excursion. it degrades linearity, not very harmful but considered a distortion.
I actually encountered this problem when recording in a cathedral. The reverb returning had a lower “tuning” then the original choir and organ. Creating an interesting soundscape. Researching this if composers of gregorian chant and the like knew this and their harmonies were made to accomodate this could be interesting (because of the inter harmonics that will occur). Choirs that are not used to this effect can be heard as going lower in pitch during a-capella singing because they are adjusting to the reverb tails they are hearing back from the room sound.
Interestingly, Doppler is what makes real reverberant spaces sound "modulated," as though electronically within a digital reverb algorithm or such. I frequently tell people that impulse responses made from real spaces or hardware reverb processors still do not capture the essence of being in the space, since there are timing distortions taking place within the air that actually affect the pitch of the echoes being recycled. I don't believe that is pseudoscience, I believe that is what happens to sound in a real space.
Just gorgeous, Paul! You're great. Thanks!
I think what Antonio is seeing when he's watching a video of the woofer moving is actually a illusion made by the camera. The shutter speed of the camera differs from the speed of the woofer. Thus making it appear that the woofer is violently shaking. In reality it is not. And learn this back in the day building drivers we called it "Wofford tricks"
That is Rolling Shutter (AKA the jello effect), where each frame of video is scanned from top to the bottom one or a few lines at a time, when you pan the camera, the vertical objects lean over like they are made of jello, a speaker looks like the top an bottom are alternating, but they are not, this is all caused by the camera, if the driver actually moved like that, the voice coil would bind on the pole piece. www.audioholics.com/loudspeaker-design/loudspeaker-drivers/copy_of_diagram_polk.jpg/image_preview2
So, lets say the driver in pulled in when the the camera starts scanning at the top, by the time it gets to the bottom the driver is fully out, then the next scan repeats the exact same timing, the cone will appear to sit there with the top pushed in, and the bottom pulled out, now, change the frequency that drives the speaker slightly, and you will see the top and bottom alternate, double the original frequency and you'll see the top and bottom come out and the center pushed in...
Explained better here: ruclips.net/video/dNVtMmLlnoE/видео.html
here's a nice example of Rolling Shutter on a speaker, listen to what the base frequency does to the wave pattern, it looks like standing waves: ruclips.net/video/pJfmWz0rUTs/видео.html
In slow-mo: ruclips.net/video/xPK03m6ij38/видео.html
Thanks Groovy Dude for your comment and suggestion.
Actually...after submitting my question, I realize I misunderstood some concepts from watching another video (Jon Atkinson interviewing Sean Casey about driver design) so I worded my question incorrectly.
What I was interested to know was the woofer driver material itself - when it is bouncing up and down, if the woofer original shape changes when music is played, would that create distortions? In other words, would a speaker with stiffer material be better? e.g. ceramic vs paper
Back in the 1940's Klipsch discovered that when a woofer moves a lot it creates distortion. He found that using a large woofer that moves very little and using the walls on both sides to acoustically couple the corner located horn would produce a low clean bass. The sensitivity of the speaker was something like 105db with 1 watt of power. Efficiency and sensitivity are 2 different things. You can have a highly efficient speaker that has a low sensitivity or a low efficiency speaker that has a high sensitivity. There are ratings called XMAX, a one way movement (sometimes they cheat and say 2 way movement to make a bigger number) of the woofer measurement that creates 10% distortion. The measurement might be something like .39 inches as in an Electro Voice EVX-180 18" woofer. The EV woofer will move something like an inch and a half stop to stop.
Fascinating. I think if the bass is pushed too hard then the driver will constrain it / clip it and that'll give ya harmonic distortion. Ya right about intermodulation distortion too - thatll come if other tones are played with the bass. Bass alone would be just the harmonics. Doppler though - whoo wee i didnt think of that one! Whoo wee rick.
In my experience the low volume distortion is due to the subwoofer frequency interference with midrange speaker cone. Make sure midrange speaker is covered within the enclosure. Most of the time it happens when you use a fullrange instead of a smaller midrange.
Check this way by disconnecting midrange but not remove it see how the woofer frequency disturbing it. Almost it will be moving like a passive cone😀 so make sure midrange is fully covered from rear 👍
Paul is a genius
Kyle Stevens Paul is highly intuitive and that is why he is constantly going off on tangents. Intuition sees patterns and how things are interconnected or related, so there is always something to add for greater depth of understanding or clarification.
For the nerdy, in a two frequency example doppler intermodulation distortion results In the higher frequency being frequency modulated by the lower frequency. Intermodulation distortion caused by the cone nearing it's limits is of the amplitude modulation type and at double the lower frequency because the cone nears two limits per cycle (forward and back). Larger cones don't have to travel as far as smaller cones to move the same amount of air. With this in mind they will tend to produce lower intermodulation and harmonic distortion for a given bass response.
Actually drivers construction has a lot of opportunities to cause distortion. Non-linear magnetic field when excursion is near maximum. Driver cone is not stiff enough at high loads, so it changes its shape during excursion. Edge of a driver cone is mounted via some rubber like material, so when it moves with long cone excursion it creates tension on the cone edge, that causes distorsion as well. Magnet and cone coil interraction forces are not infinite, but depend on kind of magnet and electric energy creating variable coil magnet force. If electric power is less per created SPL (sound pressure level) then driver magnetic force is less, so interraction with constant magnet is less. It leads to less control of coil/cone, and more distortion as direct consequence of high sensitivity.
All of it can be seen on woofer drivers because their cone size is big, and all construction defects are more expressed.
I agree. I always look at the THD of an amp. Not the driver.
Good job again Paul as always ... Hey Paul is that your wife standing beside you in the music at the end of each ask Paul segment ?.
Low bass high excursion subwoofer creates cone movement sound call distortion experienced on low bass thats why sound engineer maintained a perfect spl to low the amount of low bass
@Paul McGowen or @PS Audio, I'm trying to use a portable tube style music player (with great bass) as a portable battery-op amp for my bass. The problem is that with any volume, the sound comes out distorted. If I play an MP3, the bass sounds great, but not when I run my bass, through a portable battery-op mixer. I'm curious if there is an easy way to address this? Is there a filter or something that I need to be able to do this?
FYI, I thought about buying a battery-op bass amp, but they are incredibly costly, so I'd rather avoid that if possible.
Thanks for answering my question, Paul! Very much appreciated! :) After submitting my question, I realize I misunderstood some concepts from watching another video (Jon Atkinson interviewing Sean Casey about driver design) so I worded my question incorrectly.
What I was interested to know was the woofer driver material itself - when it is bouncing up and down, if the woofer original shape changes when music is played, would that create distortions? In other words, would a speaker with stiffer material be better? e.g. ceramic vs paper
Thank you again!
Woo boo boo woo woo woo, hey Moe! Nyuk nyuk nyuk nyuk. I'm sure Paul understands the reference.
Paul, when it comes to subwoofers and midrange drivers,
what would you recomend or whats better for sound quality reproduction on a say a 100 what per channel home receiver, a soft suspension or a stiff suspencion driver?.
also on sensability, look for a 87 or a 90, 92 db?
An efficient speaker can have the lowest, loudest, & clearest bass. Especially if the speakers are placed closed to a brick wall. The brick wall helps in 2 ways. The bass is stronger against a solid wall. Speakers can be placed closer to brick, because the brick acts as a diffusor. An efficient speaker will have both louder & clearer bass. In my setup a subwoofer is too boomy, it's unneeded. With the speakers close to a brick diffused wall, I have all the bass I want Plus the bass is more clear than the bass from a subwoofer. Plus the bass is more louder than a subwoofer, because usually the bigger subwoofers, the loudness of the bass usually gets quieter at the very lowest frequency extentions. If you want great imaging between the speakers, place on the wall between the speakers a big piece of flat glass.
But if you have a subwoofer that is very powerful compared to your loudspeakers, doesn't it prevent it from losing loudness at low frequencies? And the subwoofer helps you cover the frequencies the speaker is not capable of playing (except if the speaker is really high end and goes down to like 20 h.). It could be quite important if you use it for movies and shows.
In my case my subwoofer is below half of it maximum power.
walls are the natural enemy, so stay away from them - period
Damn, you just ganked somebody's cookie. Hahaha!
How about when your woofers lower the pressure in the room, pulling the lesser (wimpier) speakers right out of their cabinets? Midrange and tweeters get far too much attention.
I wonder if he meant the enclosure of the subwoofer moving. I had a sub sat combo for my computer like 15+ years ago. The driver was too powerful compared to the enclosure, so the enclosure would move to and mess up the sound of low end. I added a big book to the top of the sub and it totally cleaned up the bass.
More on the driver material itself. If the driver warp during flexing, vs the entire driver moving forward and back. Not sure if that makes sense? Thank you!
I meant the amp. I apologize for the error.
thanks Paul for doing these videos :)
to give my personal experience with low bass causing distortion, i have heard kind of this thing back when i had a huge subwoofer and the low hz made the whole room pressurize and compress the eardrums so that each push of the woofer changed the tone of whole music. almost like you went a bit deaf each pressurised cycle, quite odd sensation. i cant remember the exact hz it happens, but its was low, between 15 to 20hz i think.
that's why subsonic filters are a good thing! to feel bass physically bodyshakers where invented
I've heard that those ultra-low frequencies, if strong enough, can actually make you sick. Look up infra-sound.
@@jbr84tx i seen some testing of infrasound and seen no recorded effects, nor did my own experiments fair better. they just feel nice to me.
at least with normal speakers, there exist extreme spl car audio that could possibly get there.
There's only one Paul .. lol !!
Bouncing woofers ....
what next .... bouncing hooters ?
Dat cookie-stealing :D
0:11 you sound like the Danish air siren.
I think the questioner was trying to find out if a more efficient (larger) bass unit would make less distortion as it's cone and motor assembly doesn't have to make such large excursions to move the same amount of air as a (smaller) less efficient unit. To get an idea of how much drive units can safely move check this out:
ruclips.net/video/ZEBICv7QPDM/видео.html
Scary and quite impressive! Cheers. M
Not thru a pair of dynaco A25
Cool guy. Genius, a romanticist term, I like it but I would put it down to subjective taste of what is the best speaker in the world. It is not so mich about objective knowledge. I am sure our tastes would differ a lot. I love musicality and not so much the highest resolution, neither spatial nor temporal. I love naturaleness AND dynamics whicj is hard to find in the market. If it was not for the dynamics I would be happy with a pair of big Harbeth monitors. There are only a few companies who can achieve that goal of life like music, coherence, naturalness and raw dynamics such as Living Voice or Odeon. Guys, learn to rely solely on your tastes cause there is no best speaker in the world. Just good mistakes, bad mistakes and personal preferences.
Poor presentation period.