I'm the "old guy" (Dan), and yes it was rather amazing that the bike was as stable as it was at such low speeds; I had expected it to be more difficult to control. I used to be able to chrage up hills like Fargo anaerobically when I was your age (24), but the point of the bike was to climb aerobically and stably. This old guy appreciates your feedback! ;-)
It appears you have about a 2.5:1 primary reduction and a granny ring as your 2nd stage. For those of you that dont know what a 7.5 inch gear is or 7.5 gear inches, it is the equivalent gearing if he had a 1:1 gearing but with a 7.5 inch rear tire diameter. I suspect he has about a 2.5:1 primary reduction and then something like 22 granny chainring driving a 32 cog to get a total of about a 3.6:1 reduction which would put a 27" diameter tire at about 7.5 gear inches. It also appears you could have made it up that hill with even a slightly higher gear, perhaps 10 gear inches (maybe your 3rd gear).
The gear ratios are 20/45 on the left drive, and 20/32 on the right drive, on 27" wheels, leading to a 7.5" low gear. And yes, I could have climbed it, and did in practice in the 4rd 10.6" gear. The lowest 6 gears were: 7.5, 8.0, 8.9, 10.0, 11.4, 13.3 gear inches. The next gear up would have been 16", and I have that on another bike that has a 20/34 gearing (and it was tough for me to climb the hill in a 16" gear without doing some switch-backing). My plan was to climb 5 or 6 times shifting up one gear for each climb, but my chain broke after climb 2, and I forgot to bring my chain-breaker and extra chain/links. Doh! Two climbs were enough to make this video, so it was not a total loss.
@newlyborn09 - Did you read the description? The bike was created to demonstrate low speed stability such that a hill like Fargo could be climbed aerobically. That you imagine it being used elsewhere means you don't seem to grasp why I developed it. It's a special purpose proof of concept bike. As far as I know, I'm the first to make a bike with a gear reduction on a single frame, most do it with a tandem.
Hybrid gearing (an internally-geared rear hub or bottom bracket also counts as gear reduction in my opinion. I have a Bike Friday (travel bike) with 20" wheels and hybrid gearing, lowest gear below 12 gear inches (1 meter devel0pment) and I could get gears as low as those on your bike with different, commercially available sprockets. I do find the Bike Friday a bit hard to control at 3 mph, though.
To all of you who didn't read the description, the point of the bike was not speed relative to walking, it was proof of low speed stability via rider geometry, and demonstration of aerobic climbing via low gearing on a single ratherthan tandem frame. If you make a dumb, "Whhy didn't you just walk" comments, you will be blocked and your comment will be deleted.
I think it's more of an engineering feat, rather than an effort of athleticism. He's just trying out something different, to see if it gets him to the top.
I wonder what is the steepest grade a bike could climb. Assume training wheels could be added for balance. Next imagine a sprocket about as large as the rear wheel driven by a single front sprocket. It could be made to be as low as maybe 2.7 gear inches (a 10:1 reduction). Could that setup climb perhaps a 45 degree grade? Might the chain snap if the bike is geared ultra low and a large load is put on it like that of a 45 degree grade?
@CyclistLorax Hey, thanks for the reply. Yes, many sports are not exactly spectator thrillers. I appreciate you clarifying the "scoring system". I assumed it was some sort of time trial. Sorry to hear about your chain breaking. Do you still have the bike, and have you riden it up Fargo since '08?
Finally some honesty. Saying you disagree with my point is not the same as saying the exercise was pointless. I used to be able to charge up the hill anaerobically, but wanted to go up the hill aerobically. I should also point out that I was climbing vertically faster than most of the cyclists who were switchbacking!
thats a cool vid, love the ingenious varieties of bike/gearing u have there. we have a few hills that hit 30£ ere in Wales and u have to love the big hard climbs
What guy that holds the record? I'm not sure what you are asking. Have you ever pedaled a sub 10" gear up a very steep grade (>25%) on a bike with regular geometry? I did post the gear ratios a the top of the frame: 7.5" for climb #1 and 8.6" for climb #2. Just in case you don't know what gear inches mean, here are the chainring and cog sizes and absolute ratios: Left Drive: 20 x 45, Right Drive: 20 x 32 (1:3.6 or 7.5") and 20 x 28 (1:3.15 or 8.6") on a 27" wheel.
@CyclistLorax how did you keep the bike up right at that speed??? sometime I clim at like 4 mph and the bike is quite unsteady already. That's a cool climb though!
I'd have to zig zag this hill even in a 22/34 I think. Perhaps get one of those 52 tooth cassettes and super long cage derailleur, a 22 tooth granny and 2.75 to 1 mountain drive + a hub gear reduction - should be able to backy someone up the hill if it didn't tip over.
Stability on such a steep grade one of the key issues affecting cornering for those switch-backing up the hill on a conventional frame. This is why I made the handlebar and seat mods, so i could ride stably at such low speeds.
I like to ride, but watching this was as exciting as watching paint dry. It IS cool to see a custom made machine getting the job done. What was Dan's best time, and what was the winning time?
It was not expensive at all compared to buying a new road bike. I got the Cross frame on close-out sale from Bike Nashbar, and many of the parts were old parts from earlier bikes. My goal was to spend as little as possible, and re-use old parts, and not have to build anything custom. The only custom part on the bike is the idler I made by re-using the cage of an old derailleur. The stem for example, is a turned upside down tandem stoker stem, and the seat post was a bent triathlon post that I also got on a closeout sale.
I coined the name "Ultra Climber" for the special one-of-a-kind bike I designed and built for spinning up Fargo Street. I used an Al cross frame from Performance (long chain stays/wheelbase + carbon fork) so I could add a bottom bracket adapter for the second crank to lower the gearing into the 7" range. I used commercial parts, including a tandem stoker stem, and forward-canted seatpost. The forward chain idler is the cage and pulleys of a rear derailleur mounted to a front derailleur clamp.
You claim to have read the description yet can't acknowledge the point: "This video demonstrates that the concept of adding a second crank to a single bike and modifying the rider position, allows stable operation with ultra-low gears at very low speeds on a very steep hill, but at a much lower bicycle weight to lug up the hill compared to using a tandem bicycle with similar gearing." What part of this don't you get?
0:18-0:29secs was that Lady Lynda by The Beach Boys playing. It really caught my attention and this hill is something to admire. Whoever makes it up deserves some respect.
@TimpBizkit - here are the chainring and cog sizes and absolute ratios: Left Drive: 20 x 45, Right Drive: 20 x 32 (1:3.6 or 7.5") and 20 x 28 (1:3.15 or 8.6") on a 27" wheel. The rear cassette is a 12-32 8sp XTR titanium set.
How long is the hill? About 0.1 miles. I could probably spin up it in my 22/32 and get to the top in just under a minute. My lighter road bike has a 30/32 which is above the optimum sustainable ratio but could probably make it. I'd weave diagonally to get a better cadence. If it was a really long hill. I think I would use the ultraclimber. It's nice to climb a really steep hill and look back and go wow that was easy!
...ok interesting idea, but when would one need this? and what happens to the handlebars/saddle when the gradient tapers out? I mean seriously, one dosen't come across 32% gradients often...
That's an interesting combination. I wonder how difficult it would be for me to set up a similar mid-crankset with changeable gears to give ultra low gearing, standard gearing, and ultra-high gearing. The ideal application for this setup is on an already stable platform such as a trike or quad, especially on a recumbent. I'm interested because I'd be towing a trailer with heavy stuff like dog food, cat litter, or a lawnmower in a hilly area. Nice job CyclistLorax!
@instinctdonniedarko - My cadence was about or a little bit over 100 rpm, just like I do when spinning on the flat. The formula for speed is 0.002975 x (gear ratio in gear inches) x cadence. So Speed = 0.002975 x 7.5 x 100 = 2.2 mph for the first run and Speed = 0.002975 x 8.6 x 100 = 2.6 mph for the second run which is consistent with my speedometer on the bike. Does this answer your question?
@4andbelow - And for those of us who ran fast 15 mile runs as a teenager and found that it was destroying our knees, hips and ankles, we took it as inspiration for cycling.
I used an off-the-shelf Aluminum cross bike with a carbon fork. I wasn't concerned about rake, what mattered was chainstay length. This frame has 45mm chanistays, longer than a typical bike and this puts the rear whel further back relative to the rider position (resists pitch-back). The geometry that matters most is what I imposed with the choice of seatpost and handlebar stem creating a "normal" rider position relative to the vertical while the bike is pitched up at ~ 18 deg. (32% grade).
@erichwic - I'm not a biker, I'm a cyclist, and you totally missed the point of the bike. It was sepcifically designed to demonstrate stable aerobic climbing at very low speed.
@teenmakeupholic - The low speed stability is simply a result of keeping more weight on the front wheel (on a regular MTN bike the front wheel is not weighted enough for the slope), which is what the forward and downward canted position achieves when the bike is on an 18 degree slope. It was a bit of work to mount a tandem stoker stem and triathlon seat post, but the results were wonderful, as the bike is remarkably stable at very low speeds, as seen in the image in the video with dashed lines.
I think you would have done better to have shot it with an unattended camera from the top, and if you would have asked me, I'd have been happy to shoot the video so I could zoom in on you at the bottom. Nice brute force effort and unicycle technique. What you did is nearly the opposite of what I was aiming to achieve with my special bicycle. I wanted to use engineering to make a straight ascent easier, and you used a unicycle to make the effort harder. Again: nice work!
What race? The point of the bike was to demonstrate that ultra-low gearing and stability at very low speeds were possible on a lightweight bike. This is a special purpose bike I engineered/built for climbing Fargo Street, and others like it, it is not a bike for racing. None of the grades in the TdF are even half as steep as Fargo Street; it is not a hill to be climbed on the big ring. Try it some time on the big ring and make sure someone is shooting video so we can see you fail!
I agree with your final statement...it's my main point...the challenge is the 33% grade itself...not to make it somehow easier or less steep just to achieve a record or to say somebody rode up it 200 times...
I'm not a guy that can balance a track bike all day, though my low speed bike handling skills are very good, since I teach traffic skills and practice bike handling drills. The key to riding the bike is patience. At very low speeds steering corrections take a lot longer to change the lean of the bike, so one has to wait longer for the correction to re-right the bike. You will notice in the video that a few times I overcorrected and moved over laterally more than my average corrections.
@CyclistLorax your statement is true. however, low gearing is king climbing ultra steep hills. you can fit high pressure slicks to a mtb. mr low gear is my point. he is converting a high geared bike to a low geared bike by using extra cogs and a longer very inefficient chain. his mechanical resistance is greater than rolling resistance and gravity.
@CyclistLorax Mr: when I climb over 20% in my mountain bike (seat) my front wheel bounce, by traction of my arms. I noted that the shape of your bike can avoid this reaction. But I think that tilt can't keep the stability at low speed (as you say in 0:59). The stability of bicicle only is keeping by the "cyroscope effect" of the wheels. Whit this lows speed the only for to avoid is to keep the center of mass low.
I'm aware of Canton Ave, and though steeper than Fargo at its peak pitch, the 37% pitch is only 21 feet in length, overall it is not as long (~475') as Fargo (~650'), and the steepest part of Fargo is over 34% but for something like 40 to 50 feet. Another interesting street of this type is Baldwin st in Australia, thought to have a 38% grade, but was measured at only 35% for a comparable distance to Fargo. Then there's a 4WD road in Hawaii that has 1km of over 25% pitch.
very good engineering and give you much respect for that. BUT i do have to say, since i am a cyclist and ride some serious hills too, i would much rather bonk and not finish than spin like that. if i bonked and couldn't do it, well then, i wasn't worthy of the climb. but you rely on your brain to get you up the hill so i respect that, i just rely on my legs and the power i can get them to generate. thanks for the post and looking forward to trying this hill in the near future.
I know the term. I was making a point about the effort it took to pull it off. I have a climbing bike with a 16" low gear, but it was not low enough for me to spin up Fargo, and the geometry was not canted downward and forward enough for the low speed stability I wanted, hence the motivation for the design. I wanted to see if I could make a bike that would be stable at 2-3 mph on that steep a grade.
@vega2614 - The grade of the hill is really between 32% and 34%. It's quite imposing when viewed from the bottom, because it's a full 50% steeper than a mere 20% grade. People have worked out detailed elevation profiles for the hill, and the steeperst part, at 34% is about the 1/4 to 1/2 way up, segment of the climb. You can check the elevations and the distance in Google Earth if you don't beleive me...
So please tell us what you consider to be the "funnyest" part of the climb. And while you are at it, could you please explain what you mean by "the real climb move" that I apparently killed?
@spdrecrd - The rear derailleur is fully functional. I added a second fixed deraileur cage, attached to a front deraileur clamp, to route the chain around the lower bottom bracket to return to the rear derailleur. You can see this in the still photo in the other Fargo video I posted with only helmet camera footage.
So what speed in your opinion constitutes the lower threshold speed for a "fast walk" up a 32% grade for 0.11 miles? Do remember to factor in the weight of the bicycle, say as a backpack weighing as much as the bike I was riding (20 lbs). Have you ever walked up Fargo St. or a road of comparable length and grade with a 20 pound backpack and measured your speed, or is this just amrchair philosophizing (a kind of intellectual laziness) on your part?
@curtisakalefty - I think you missed the point of the bike. Sure, I could just as well have put 20.5 lbs in a backpack and walked up the hill, but the goal was to climb straight up the hill aerobically and reasonably stably. I do believe that I can spin up the hill more easily than walking up it with the extra weight.
@MrWhybotherwithme - Back in the early days of motoring, before the latter 1920s, developers were laying out road grids in places like LA, Pittsburgh, and even parts of Australia, without concerning themselves about road grade. This resulted in some very steep roads (grades above 30%) in the Silverlake area of LA, a Road in pittsburgh of close to 37%, and one in Australia that is supposed to be over 38% for a short pitch. LA, in the late 20s required all new roads have grades 15% or less.
Do you really think that an aerospace engineer doesn't know that carrying less weight up the hill is more energy efficient? In the future you would look considerably less silly if you read the description of video before making absurd comments.
That's a Midi version of "Jesu, Joy of Man's desiring" by JS Bach, which happens to be my favorite rondo. I put all the music in order of first appearance in the credits.
You guess it would be good for spinning? I told you so in the video. In fact spinning up such a steep grade was half the point of the bike. The other half being geometry that creates stability at very low speeds. Have you ever cycled up a grade of 30% or more? It's not like "steep" hills in the 10-20% range; low speed stability becomes a real issue.
I didnt even see the credits, sorry. i was too busy watching the riders ride this insane hill. Sure does sound like the Beach Boys. For all i know they used from Bach. Thanks in any case.
@newlyborn09 - By Jove, I think he's got it! Yes, the purpose was to prove a concept, and the enjoyable recreational engineering necessary to make the concept real.
@diggler2002 - I did edit the footage (look at the cuts from tripod to the hend-held camera)! And the purpose was to demonstrate to some naysayers that I really did climb the entire hill, multiple times.
And 3 days later, you make it to the top. HAHA! The worst I have done is a 22% average grade that only lasted about 1/4 mile. My granny gear is 39/23 and yes, I stayed in that gear until the climb eased off to 7% at the end of this steep section.
And your point is? I made this bike to demonstrate both low speed stability and the ability to spin on a 32% grade with ultra-low gearing. Maybe you didn't notice that my vertical speed up the hill was higher than those switch-backing. The bio-mechanical efficiency of a stable rider position and gearing one can spin was previously only though possible on tandem bikes, which weigh twice as much. This video demonstrates that one can spin a single bike up this hill with two cranks and improved rider geometry. And yes, I could charge up the hill when I was a youngster, but that is not the point of the video.
@@CyclistLorax No pun intended. My point is that my gearing was way too high for going up that steep of a grade. Try going up a 1/4 mile 22% grade with a 39/23 granny gear, I'd have even been happy with a 39/28 for that grade. All I'm saying is I most assuredly could have chosen better gears for the kind of rides I went on in the cascade mountains. I just never realized that other cyclists in my area had much lower granny gears than I did until I was watching the Giro when the race headed into the Dolomite's and they were talking about the gear ratios the climbers were using to get up those steep climbs. Then a light went on in my head 💡and I finally realized my problem wasn't my legs, but my gear cluster. I did fine until the grades exceeded 7% to 8% and when they reached 9% I began to struggle with my 39/23 granny gear. If a pun had been intended, it should have been directed at myself.
@piccalocb - The name of the piece is Yakety Sax, and no, my cadence was fast enough. I didn't make this video to amuse you, but then you'd know that if you read the description.
@deezynar - It's much more interesting to climb the hill than to watch! 8-) As far as I know, there was no timekeeping. The "contest" is most ascents, irrespective of time. I climbed it 4 times at which point my chain broke, though I could have climbed many more times, I had enough video to "prove" that the bike concept was viable, so I called it a morning.
@willbraithw - I did, between climbs, not on the climb becasue the stress on the chain is too high. After four climbs I broke the chain during an upshift in preparing for climb 5, where I had planned to use the next higher gear.
So do you then agree that switch-backing up the hill is also not acceptable? After all, this turns a 32% grade into something more like a 15-16% grade. If someone wanted to climb a 16% grade, then why climb Fargo? Now to your prejudice against spinning: isn't the point of multi-geared bicycles to have a range of gears so one can always spin? So where is this magic power threshold that one must attain to climb the hill? We all age and lose power, so why not enjoy the hill while spinning?
@schumionbike - The geometery of the frame and the rider position (stem and seat post) I designed, make it much more stable then a regular bike for seated spinning at very low speed.
Me too, but that was not the point of the bike; I wanted to see if I could climb the hill aerobically and stably at very low speed on a single. Most people do this with a tandem. Besides, the recreational engineering I did to design and build the bike was as much fun as spinning straight up the hill.
There's a hill about as steep as this in Bath called North Lane. It's a little alley way going up from bathwick hill to north road. It's much shorter than Fargo Street and I was trying to see what speed I could go up it. I once managed a peak of 11mph with a run up. I was scaring some girls who were walking up it by charging my mtb at 8mph up it!!
@teenmakeupholic - The gyroscope effect of wheels stabilizinga bicycle is a myth. This was proven by MIT researchers who cancelled ot the effect by mounting counter rotating wheels on top of the normal wheels of a bike. They rode just fine. The balance is an interplay between the rider inputs of legs and arms. besides at very low wheel rotation speeds, as seen in this video, there are no discernable gyroscope effects. More in the next reply.
As fast as I can exercise for 20 min to 1 hour, I could go about 2-3mph up the hill. So to get 90rpm I would need about 10 gear inches to sustain the climb at the most comfortable seated pedaling speed.
I wish I could do this ride, but too far away. Seems like a lot of fun. But honestly, I don't think that's 32% grade. I whipped out a protractor (yeah, I'm a dork) and measured at 2:53 and it looks to be about 20% (compared to house); veloroutes confirmed. But still, looks like a great ride and anybody that can climb it should be proud. Nice custom bike too! When I first saw it, I was thinking "that seat is at the wrong angle!"
@bipedalame - Low gearing is king? I know of no MTB with a 7" gear! I geared this bike much lower than any MTB. The chain is not much longer and the inefficiency is not realted to length, it's related to deflection angle, which was very low for the setup I used. More importantly, a MTB has a high rider position relative to a road bike and this badly compromises stability. Do notice that I lowered the rider position vastly more than the cross frame's head tube would support, a MTB is worse.
I do agree that switch backs arent acceptable. spinning is ok. dont get me wrong. if thats what you want to do, tackle impossible hills. spinning isnt really an option on my bike, as i have a double. instead of triple, so honestly fargo is pretty much impossible for me. But im still gonna try. i have no idea what the magic power threshold is. your invention is respected so enjoy it all you can, i would just rather cruise at 20mph average around town on a 44 mile ride. idk. just me.
I can read and understand it...However, being a cyclist, it's a pointless exercise...the challenge is to climb the steep grade on a "regular" road bike..I could also go up this hill on a mountain bike with a 26T chain ring & 36T cog...making it easier than my current 39T/28T...but what's the point???
My name is Terry, aka, "UniGeezer", and I will be attacking this hill *straight* up with no snaking...ON MY UNICYCLE! Tentative date is Sunday, 2/13/11. I'll be getting there around 9am. Feel free to join me or just watch!
In addition, you clam the challenge is to climb the hill on a regular road bike, but do you realize that the record holders DO NOT CLIMB THE HILL ON A REGULAR ROAD BIKE! They use single speed bikes and they do not ride striaght up the hill, they switchback to reduce the grade, so they're only climbing a 16-18% grade. I find that to be pointless, since they aren't climbing a 33% grade.
good effort on the road, good effort in the shed, have a thumbs up.
I'm the "old guy" (Dan), and yes it was rather amazing that the bike was as stable as it was at such low speeds; I had expected it to be more difficult to control. I used to be able to chrage up hills like Fargo anaerobically when I was your age (24), but the point of the bike was to climb aerobically and stably. This old guy appreciates your feedback! ;-)
It appears you have about a 2.5:1 primary reduction and a granny ring as your 2nd stage. For those of you that dont know what a 7.5 inch gear is or 7.5 gear inches, it is the equivalent gearing if he had a 1:1 gearing but with a 7.5 inch rear tire diameter. I suspect he has about a 2.5:1 primary reduction and then something like 22 granny chainring driving a 32 cog to get a total of about a 3.6:1 reduction which would put a 27" diameter tire at about 7.5 gear inches. It also appears you could have made it up that hill with even a slightly higher gear, perhaps 10 gear inches (maybe your 3rd gear).
The gear ratios are 20/45 on the left drive, and 20/32 on the right drive, on 27" wheels, leading to a 7.5" low gear. And yes, I could have climbed it, and did in practice in the 4rd 10.6" gear. The lowest 6 gears were: 7.5, 8.0, 8.9, 10.0, 11.4, 13.3 gear inches. The next gear up would have been 16", and I have that on another bike that has a 20/34 gearing (and it was tough for me to climb the hill in a 16" gear without doing some switch-backing). My plan was to climb 5 or 6 times shifting up one gear for each climb, but my chain broke after climb 2, and I forgot to bring my chain-breaker and extra chain/links. Doh! Two climbs were enough to make this video, so it was not a total loss.
That was fun to see your bike in action at the Fargo Hill climb. VERY Clever Dan and VERY Impressive ;)
@newlyborn09 - Did you read the description? The bike was created to demonstrate low speed stability such that a hill like Fargo could be climbed aerobically. That you imagine it being used elsewhere means you don't seem to grasp why I developed it. It's a special purpose proof of concept bike. As far as I know, I'm the first to make a bike with a gear reduction on a single frame, most do it with a tandem.
Hybrid gearing (an internally-geared rear hub or bottom bracket also counts as gear reduction in my opinion. I have a Bike Friday (travel bike) with 20" wheels and hybrid gearing, lowest gear below 12 gear inches (1 meter devel0pment) and I could get gears as low as those on your bike with different, commercially available sprockets. I do find the Bike Friday a bit hard to control at 3 mph, though.
Dan what is the tallest gear you can climb this hill in? You made it with 7.5" and 8.6", what is your next gear up? Close to 10"?
Awesome! I can't even imagine a 7" gear... but then again, I can't imagine a 32% road either! Neat concept, very cool to see.
THIS IS GREAT!
I love the speed you start at haha
To all of you who didn't read the description, the point of the bike was not speed relative to walking, it was proof of low speed stability via rider geometry, and demonstration of aerobic climbing via low gearing on a single ratherthan tandem frame. If you make a dumb, "Whhy didn't you just walk" comments, you will be blocked and your comment will be deleted.
That is such an awesome creation
At what point do we just say 'just get stronger man.'
Hey kid, did you go to LA public schools by any chance? Apparently you don't read so well.
I think it's more of an engineering feat, rather than an effort of athleticism. He's just trying out something different, to see if it gets him to the top.
Years behind. Simply making it up that grade requires a decent power to weight ratio even with the mechanical advantage of that ultra-low gearing.
I wonder what is the steepest grade a bike could climb. Assume training wheels could be added for balance. Next imagine a sprocket about as large as the rear wheel driven by a single front sprocket. It could be made to be as low as maybe 2.7 gear inches (a 10:1 reduction). Could that setup climb perhaps a 45 degree grade? Might the chain snap if the bike is geared ultra low and a large load is put on it like that of a 45 degree grade?
@CyclistLorax
Hey, thanks for the reply.
Yes, many sports are not exactly spectator thrillers.
I appreciate you clarifying the "scoring system". I assumed it was some sort of time trial.
Sorry to hear about your chain breaking. Do you still have the bike, and have you riden it up Fargo since '08?
Finally some honesty. Saying you disagree with my point is not the same as saying the exercise was pointless. I used to be able to charge up the hill anaerobically, but wanted to go up the hill aerobically. I should also point out that I was climbing vertically faster than most of the cyclists who were switchbacking!
thats a cool vid, love the ingenious varieties of bike/gearing u have there. we have a few hills that hit 30£ ere in Wales and u have to love the big hard climbs
What guy that holds the record? I'm not sure what you are asking. Have you ever pedaled a sub 10" gear up a very steep grade (>25%) on a bike with regular geometry? I did post the gear ratios a the top of the frame: 7.5" for climb #1 and 8.6" for climb #2. Just in case you don't know what gear inches mean, here are the chainring and cog sizes and absolute ratios: Left Drive: 20 x 45, Right Drive: 20 x 32 (1:3.6 or 7.5") and 20 x 28 (1:3.15 or 8.6") on a 27" wheel.
@CyclistLorax
how did you keep the bike up right at that speed??? sometime I clim at like 4 mph and the bike is quite unsteady already. That's a cool climb though!
I'd have to zig zag this hill even in a 22/34 I think. Perhaps get one of those 52 tooth cassettes and super long cage derailleur, a 22 tooth granny and 2.75 to 1 mountain drive + a hub gear reduction - should be able to backy someone up the hill if it didn't tip over.
Stability on such a steep grade one of the key issues affecting cornering for those switch-backing up the hill on a conventional frame. This is why I made the handlebar and seat mods, so i could ride stably at such low speeds.
AWESOME bike and vid!!
BTW, I looked up "Ultra Climber" but could not find that bicycle by that name; what is the actual brand and model? Thanks.
I like to ride, but watching this was as exciting as watching paint dry.
It IS cool to see a custom made machine getting the job done.
What was Dan's best time, and what was the winning time?
Nice, I like the creativity. Wish I had enough money to mess around like that.
It was not expensive at all compared to buying a new road bike. I got the Cross frame on close-out sale from Bike Nashbar, and many of the parts were old parts from earlier bikes. My goal was to spend as little as possible, and re-use old parts, and not have to build anything custom. The only custom part on the bike is the idler I made by re-using the cage of an old derailleur. The stem for example, is a turned upside down tandem stoker stem, and the seat post was a bent triathlon post that I also got on a closeout sale.
I coined the name "Ultra Climber" for the special one-of-a-kind bike I designed and built for spinning up Fargo Street. I used an Al cross frame from Performance (long chain stays/wheelbase + carbon fork) so I could add a bottom bracket adapter for the second crank to lower the gearing into the 7" range. I used commercial parts, including a tandem stoker stem, and forward-canted seatpost. The forward chain idler is the cage and pulleys of a rear derailleur mounted to a front derailleur clamp.
You claim to have read the description yet can't acknowledge the point: "This video demonstrates that the concept of adding a second crank to a single bike and modifying the rider position, allows stable operation with ultra-low gears at very low speeds on a very steep hill, but at a much lower bicycle weight to lug up the hill compared to using a tandem bicycle with similar gearing." What part of this don't you get?
High cadence at such a slow speed with incredible stability... that is pretty amazing indeed.
Is it viable at all for the flats and descents? Does it have a high enough gear to produce a reasonable speed?
0:18-0:29secs was that Lady Lynda by The Beach Boys playing. It really caught my attention and this hill is something to admire. Whoever makes it up deserves some respect.
Oh, Ok, cool, thanks man! I may be attempting Fargo this week (Monday) with my Segway!!
@TimpBizkit - here are the chainring and cog sizes and absolute ratios: Left Drive: 20 x 45, Right Drive: 20 x 32 (1:3.6 or 7.5") and 20 x 28 (1:3.15 or 8.6") on a 27" wheel. The rear cassette is a 12-32 8sp XTR titanium set.
Fun to see. Any idea of your heart rate or % of max hr?
How long is the hill? About 0.1 miles. I could probably spin up it in my 22/32 and get to the top in just under a minute. My lighter road bike has a 30/32 which is above the optimum sustainable ratio but could probably make it. I'd weave diagonally to get a better cadence. If it was a really long hill. I think I would use the ultraclimber. It's nice to climb a really steep hill and look back and go wow that was easy!
...ok interesting idea, but when would one need this? and what happens to the handlebars/saddle when the gradient tapers out? I mean seriously, one dosen't come across 32% gradients often...
That's an interesting combination.
I wonder how difficult it would be for me to set up a similar mid-crankset with changeable gears to give ultra low gearing, standard gearing, and ultra-high gearing.
The ideal application for this setup is on an already stable platform such as a trike or quad, especially on a recumbent.
I'm interested because I'd be towing a trailer with heavy stuff like dog food, cat litter, or a lawnmower in a hilly area.
Nice job CyclistLorax!
@instinctdonniedarko - My cadence was about or a little bit over 100 rpm, just like I do when spinning on the flat. The formula for speed is 0.002975 x (gear ratio in gear inches) x cadence.
So Speed = 0.002975 x 7.5 x 100 = 2.2 mph for the first run
and Speed = 0.002975 x 8.6 x 100 = 2.6 mph for the second run
which is consistent with my speedometer on the bike.
Does this answer your question?
@4andbelow - And for those of us who ran fast 15 mile runs as a teenager and found that it was destroying our knees, hips and ankles, we took it as inspiration for cycling.
What is the name of the road and where is it (city, state) I can find it in google earth and relatively easily determine its average gradient.
I used an off-the-shelf Aluminum cross bike with a carbon fork. I wasn't concerned about rake, what mattered was chainstay length. This frame has 45mm chanistays, longer than a typical bike and this puts the rear whel further back relative to the rider position (resists pitch-back). The geometry that matters most is what I imposed with the choice of seatpost and handlebar stem creating a "normal" rider position relative to the vertical while the bike is pitched up at ~ 18 deg. (32% grade).
@erichwic - I'm not a biker, I'm a cyclist, and you totally missed the point of the bike. It was sepcifically designed to demonstrate stable aerobic climbing at very low speed.
@teenmakeupholic - The low speed stability is simply a result of keeping more weight on the front wheel (on a regular MTN bike the front wheel is not weighted enough for the slope), which is what the forward and downward canted position achieves when the bike is on an 18 degree slope. It was a bit of work to mount a tandem stoker stem and triathlon seat post, but the results were wonderful, as the bike is remarkably stable at very low speeds, as seen in the image in the video with dashed lines.
i love riding a bike where could i get into something like this in canada? is it costly? i know bikes are expensive some what do somepeople spply?
I think you would have done better to have shot it with an unattended camera from the top, and if you would have asked me, I'd have been happy to shoot the video so I could zoom in on you at the bottom. Nice brute force effort and unicycle technique. What you did is nearly the opposite of what I was aiming to achieve with my special bicycle. I wanted to use engineering to make a straight ascent easier, and you used a unicycle to make the effort harder. Again: nice work!
I love seeing innovation.
@CyclistLorax Yes, but what is the point of developing such a concept bike? For the sole purpose of climbing 32% gradient hills?
What are all the gear sizes and reductions?
What race? The point of the bike was to demonstrate that ultra-low gearing and stability at very low speeds were possible on a lightweight bike. This is a special purpose bike I engineered/built for climbing Fargo Street, and others like it, it is not a bike for racing. None of the grades in the TdF are even half as steep as Fargo Street; it is not a hill to be climbed on the big ring. Try it some time on the big ring and make sure someone is shooting video so we can see you fail!
I agree with your final statement...it's my main point...the challenge is the 33% grade itself...not to make it somehow easier or less steep just to achieve a record or to say somebody rode up it 200 times...
I'm not a guy that can balance a track bike all day, though my low speed bike handling skills are very good, since I teach traffic skills and practice bike handling drills. The key to riding the bike is patience. At very low speeds steering corrections take a lot longer to change the lean of the bike, so one has to wait longer for the correction to re-right the bike. You will notice in the video that a few times I overcorrected and moved over laterally more than my average corrections.
@CyclistLorax your statement is true. however, low gearing is king climbing ultra steep hills. you can fit high pressure slicks to a mtb. mr low gear is my point. he is converting a high geared bike to a low geared bike by using extra cogs and a longer very inefficient chain. his mechanical resistance is greater than rolling resistance and gravity.
@clairishe - The bike was not made for general purpose riding. It was optimized for low speed climbing.
@CyclistLorax Mr: when I climb over 20% in my mountain bike (seat) my front wheel bounce, by traction of my arms. I noted that the shape of your bike can avoid this reaction. But I think that tilt can't keep the stability at low speed (as you say in 0:59). The stability of bicicle only is keeping by the "cyroscope effect" of the wheels. Whit this lows speed the only for to avoid is to keep the center of mass low.
I'm aware of Canton Ave, and though steeper than Fargo at its peak pitch, the 37% pitch is only 21 feet in length, overall it is not as long (~475') as Fargo (~650'), and the steepest part of Fargo is over 34% but for something like 40 to 50 feet. Another interesting street of this type is Baldwin st in Australia, thought to have a 38% grade, but was measured at only 35% for a comparable distance to Fargo. Then there's a 4WD road in Hawaii that has 1km of over 25% pitch.
very good engineering and give you much respect for that. BUT i do have to say, since i am a cyclist and ride some serious hills too, i would much rather bonk and not finish than spin like that. if i bonked and couldn't do it, well then, i wasn't worthy of the climb. but you rely on your brain to get you up the hill so i respect that, i just rely on my legs and the power i can get them to generate. thanks for the post and looking forward to trying this hill in the near future.
I know the term. I was making a point about the effort it took to pull it off. I have a climbing bike with a 16" low gear, but it was not low enough for me to spin up Fargo, and the geometry was not canted downward and forward enough for the low speed stability I wanted, hence the motivation for the design. I wanted to see if I could make a bike that would be stable at 2-3 mph on that steep a grade.
The Tour of California needs to have a stage finish on the top of this hill. :-)
@vega2614 - The grade of the hill is really between 32% and 34%. It's quite imposing when viewed from the bottom, because it's a full 50% steeper than a mere 20% grade. People have worked out detailed elevation profiles for the hill, and the steeperst part, at 34% is about the 1/4 to 1/2 way up, segment of the climb. You can check the elevations and the distance in Google Earth if you don't beleive me...
So please tell us what you consider to be the "funnyest" part of the climb. And while you are at it, could you please explain what you mean by "the real climb move" that I apparently killed?
@spdrecrd - The rear derailleur is fully functional. I added a second fixed deraileur cage, attached to a front deraileur clamp, to route the chain around the lower bottom bracket to return to the rear derailleur. You can see this in the still photo in the other Fargo video I posted with only helmet camera footage.
What percentage grade is Fargo Hill?
@deridealetod - Wouldn't it be faster if you just used your eyes to read the description above?
So what speed in your opinion constitutes the lower threshold speed for a "fast walk" up a 32% grade for 0.11 miles? Do remember to factor in the weight of the bicycle, say as a backpack weighing as much as the bike I was riding (20 lbs). Have you ever walked up Fargo St. or a road of comparable length and grade with a 20 pound backpack and measured your speed, or is this just amrchair philosophizing (a kind of intellectual laziness) on your part?
@curtisakalefty - I think you missed the point of the bike. Sure, I could just as well have put 20.5 lbs in a backpack and walked up the hill, but the goal was to climb straight up the hill aerobically and reasonably stably. I do believe that I can spin up the hill more easily than walking up it with the extra weight.
what candance? seemed a little quick.
I built my cross country touring bike with a 20 front 34 rear granny gear, something like 16". I'v climbed some steep hils with over 50lbs of cargo.
@MrWhybotherwithme - Back in the early days of motoring, before the latter 1920s, developers were laying out road grids in places like LA, Pittsburgh, and even parts of Australia, without concerning themselves about road grade. This resulted in some very steep roads (grades above 30%) in the Silverlake area of LA, a Road in pittsburgh of close to 37%, and one in Australia that is supposed to be over 38% for a short pitch. LA, in the late 20s required all new roads have grades 15% or less.
@arklat ¿42 plate and 21 in a wheel?? ¿who are you, the father of Lance Armstrong?. In climb over 20% i need to use my mountain bike, with 39 x 34...
Do you really think that an aerospace engineer doesn't know that carrying less weight up the hill is more energy efficient? In the future you would look considerably less silly if you read the description of video before making absurd comments.
That's a Midi version of "Jesu, Joy of Man's desiring" by JS Bach, which happens to be my favorite rondo. I put all the music in order of first appearance in the credits.
You guess it would be good for spinning? I told you so in the video. In fact spinning up such a steep grade was half the point of the bike. The other half being geometry that creates stability at very low speeds. Have you ever cycled up a grade of 30% or more? It's not like "steep" hills in the 10-20% range; low speed stability becomes a real issue.
@ulfthegoon - The grade varies between 32% and 34%, and averages over 32%. I noted the grade and length on the title at the beginning of the video.
I didnt even see the credits, sorry. i was too busy watching the riders ride this insane hill. Sure does sound like the Beach Boys. For all i know they used from Bach. Thanks in any case.
@newlyborn09 - By Jove, I think he's got it! Yes, the purpose was to prove a concept, and the enjoyable recreational engineering necessary to make the concept real.
There was this inspirational video called why do you run.
WELL.....
4:30 - 6:45 about sum it up.
@diggler2002 - I did edit the footage (look at the cuts from tripod to the hend-held camera)! And the purpose was to demonstrate to some naysayers that I really did climb the entire hill, multiple times.
And 3 days later, you make it to the top. HAHA! The worst I have done is a 22% average grade that only lasted about 1/4 mile. My granny gear is 39/23 and yes, I stayed in that gear until the climb eased off to 7% at the end of this steep section.
And your point is? I made this bike to demonstrate both low speed stability and the ability to spin on a 32% grade with ultra-low gearing. Maybe you didn't notice that my vertical speed up the hill was higher than those switch-backing. The bio-mechanical efficiency of a stable rider position and gearing one can spin was previously only though possible on tandem bikes, which weigh twice as much. This video demonstrates that one can spin a single bike up this hill with two cranks and improved rider geometry. And yes, I could charge up the hill when I was a youngster, but that is not the point of the video.
@@CyclistLorax No pun intended. My point is that my gearing was way too high for going up that steep of a grade. Try going up a 1/4 mile 22% grade with a 39/23 granny gear, I'd have even been happy with a 39/28 for that grade. All I'm saying is I most assuredly could have chosen better gears for the kind of rides I went on in the cascade mountains. I just never realized that other cyclists in my area had much lower granny gears than I did until I was watching the Giro when the race headed into the Dolomite's and they were talking about the gear ratios the climbers were using to get up those steep climbs. Then a light went on in my head 💡and I finally realized my problem wasn't my legs, but my gear cluster. I did fine until the grades exceeded 7% to 8% and when they reached 9% I began to struggle with my 39/23 granny gear. If a pun had been intended, it should have been directed at myself.
wow, that was amazing. real slow but i guess it gets the job done. If the old guy can do it, good for him.
@piccalocb - The name of the piece is Yakety Sax, and no, my cadence was fast enough. I didn't make this video to amuse you, but then you'd know that if you read the description.
@deezynar - It's much more interesting to climb the hill than to watch! 8-) As far as I know, there was no timekeeping. The "contest" is most ascents, irrespective of time. I climbed it 4 times at which point my chain broke, though I could have climbed many more times, I had enough video to "prove" that the bike concept was viable, so I called it a morning.
Oh well, apparently not everyone can read or understand the description.
@bipedalame - Mtn bike is heavier and has less traction and more rolling resistance with the low pressure tires.
why would you make a road on that hill
@willbraithw - I did, between climbs, not on the climb becasue the stress on the chain is too high. After four climbs I broke the chain during an upshift in preparing for climb 5, where I had planned to use the next higher gear.
I just did this hill climb today, 9/26/09....
ON A UNICYCLE!!! Fixed gear 1:1! Try that, and live to tell about it!
So do you then agree that switch-backing up the hill is also not acceptable? After all, this turns a 32% grade into something more like a 15-16% grade. If someone wanted to climb a 16% grade, then why climb Fargo? Now to your prejudice against spinning: isn't the point of multi-geared bicycles to have a range of gears so one can always spin? So where is this magic power threshold that one must attain to climb the hill? We all age and lose power, so why not enjoy the hill while spinning?
@schumionbike - The geometery of the frame and the rider position (stem and seat post) I designed, make it much more stable then a regular bike for seated spinning at very low speed.
king of the hill!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
this is easy...u guys should try riding in Vermont or new Hampshire
Me too, but that was not the point of the bike; I wanted to see if I could climb the hill aerobically and stably at very low speed on a single. Most people do this with a tandem. Besides, the recreational engineering I did to design and build the bike was as much fun as spinning straight up the hill.
OMG, just look at his cadence? i would not make it even with that bike. i wont be able to pedal that much. THUMBS UP.
I was always a spinner, so I geared the bike so i could pedal at 100RPM or a little higher, precisely to keep it aerobic.
There's a hill about as steep as this in Bath called North Lane. It's a little alley way going up from bathwick hill to north road. It's much shorter than Fargo Street and I was trying to see what speed I could go up it. I once managed a peak of 11mph with a run up. I was scaring some girls who were walking up it by charging my mtb at 8mph up it!!
@teenmakeupholic - The gyroscope effect of wheels stabilizinga bicycle is a myth. This was proven by MIT researchers who cancelled ot the effect by mounting counter rotating wheels on top of the normal wheels of a bike. They rode just fine. The balance is an interplay between the rider inputs of legs and arms. besides at very low wheel rotation speeds, as seen in this video, there are no discernable gyroscope effects. More in the next reply.
As fast as I can exercise for 20 min to 1 hour, I could go about 2-3mph up the hill. So to get 90rpm I would need about 10 gear inches to sustain the climb at the most comfortable seated pedaling speed.
I wish I could do this ride, but too far away. Seems like a lot of fun. But honestly, I don't think that's 32% grade. I whipped out a protractor (yeah, I'm a dork) and measured at 2:53 and it looks to be about 20% (compared to house); veloroutes confirmed. But still, looks like a great ride and anybody that can climb it should be proud. Nice custom bike too! When I first saw it, I was thinking "that seat is at the wrong angle!"
@bipedalame - Low gearing is king? I know of no MTB with a 7" gear! I geared this bike much lower than any MTB. The chain is not much longer and the inefficiency is not realted to length, it's related to deflection angle, which was very low for the setup I used. More importantly, a MTB has a high rider position relative to a road bike and this badly compromises stability. Do notice that I lowered the rider position vastly more than the cross frame's head tube would support, a MTB is worse.
I do agree that switch backs arent acceptable. spinning is ok. dont get me wrong. if thats what you want to do, tackle impossible hills. spinning isnt really an option on my bike, as i have a double. instead of triple, so honestly fargo is pretty much impossible for me. But im still gonna try. i have no idea what the magic power threshold is. your invention is respected so enjoy it all you can, i would just rather cruise at 20mph average around town on a 44 mile ride. idk. just me.
I've done the hill, standing, with a 32...not a problem.
I can read and understand it...However, being a cyclist, it's a pointless exercise...the challenge is to climb the steep grade on a "regular" road bike..I could also go up this hill on a mountain bike with a 26T chain ring & 36T cog...making it easier than my current 39T/28T...but what's the point???
For being such a "stupid" low gear, it sure took a lot of thought to put it all together!
My name is Terry, aka, "UniGeezer", and I will be attacking this hill *straight* up with no snaking...ON MY UNICYCLE! Tentative date is Sunday, 2/13/11. I'll be getting there around 9am. Feel free to join me or just watch!
Just MTFU and big ring it! But actually, interesting idea :-)
I Engineered The F**K Up that hill, and that was the point of the video you silly person. ;-)
In addition, you clam the challenge is to climb the hill on a regular road bike, but do you realize that the record holders DO NOT CLIMB THE HILL ON A REGULAR ROAD BIKE! They use single speed bikes and they do not ride striaght up the hill, they switchback to reduce the grade, so they're only climbing a 16-18% grade. I find that to be pointless, since they aren't climbing a 33% grade.
@CyclistLorax Ok well, I forgive you for the sarcasm and I hope it was worth your time and effort.