New Chinese Artillery vs. U.S. Comparison
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- Опубликовано: 10 июн 2024
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Helpful English Resources:
• ATP 7-100.3 "Chinese Tactics" ( armypubs.army.mil/epubs/DR_pu... ) is the U.S. Army's OPFOR manual on Chinese tactics. It gives a good overview of PLA force structure that is more or less consistent. But of course it is not an official PLA doctrine and most likely based heavily on open-sources, so it should be taken as an approximation rather than exact fact. There is always the risk of reports like this being a "dirty mirror" where the writer sees their own military's doctrine where it might not be. But we'll never get as detailed of a doctrine publication out of China as we get out of western nations.
• ODIN ( odin.tradoc.army.mil/ ) has a database on military equipment, including Chinese artillery
• U.S. Army TRADOC's quick reference guide to PLA ground force structure ( rdl.train.army.mil/catalog-ws... )
• Jaidev Jamwal ( jjamwal.in/yayavar/chinese-ar... ) aggregates a lot of what can be gleaned from open-sources on Chinese units, including rough garrisons and tactical markings in each theater command. But this is a blog so proceed with caution.
Chapters:
0:00 - Overview
2:49 - Battalion Mortars
6:50 - Brigade Artillery
13:27 - Group Army Artillery
18:16 - Closing Thoughts
Ground News said I didn't need to do a pinned comment but I think they're genuinely good news aggregator. It puts all of the big news agencies in one place so you aren't limited to just one clickbait headline. For a while I casually used the default news on my phone and was better off not reading it. I saw a lot of people in the newsy, OSINTy space use Ground News before, so it seemed like a good fit. Try it out and you'll be helping the channel too: ground.news/battleorder
I actually use Ground news, It's kind of an essential service at this point.
It was great working with you, Battle Order!
Social credit+20
Nice Video guessing the logo change is permanent
Your information about Chinese artillery and MLRS is very outdated and skimpy. But most people among your uninformed audience won't be able to tell that you're selling them outdated info. ROTFLMAO!
for china, those existing towed howitzers not exactly retired. they have been transferred to reserved units (for training to retain skills) and militias.
The China Meteorological Administration has over 7000 AA guns and 8000 rockets. The largest in the world
@@seraphimworms899 yeah Russia had the largest tank force on earth.. how that work out for them??? communist propaganda trash
@@MRsolidcolor NATO was afraid to face trashes
@@seraphimworms899 but in terms of formation, Russian has the superior AA power in theory.
@@zheyuxiang5596 in fact too
The big difference is evident mainly in how the countries use their armies. The US deploys overseas around the world so a relatively light towable artillery is better for transport needs across oceans. For Russia who doesn't really deploy all over the world tracked SPG's work better on their terrain. The same applies to China as you see how they deploy more mortars because of the terrain. Different countries have different doctrines and needs based on the environments they deploy. So looking at numbers and different types are obviously going to be different from one country to another. The same goes if you evaluate numbers of active duty personnel or their Navy and Air Force active ships/aircraft. It is all based on the countries needs and where they face conflict or a threat of conflict.
Just look at Russia army right now I don't think we need to fear Chinese product
@@ryananggoro493 , China and U.S. Army fought to a standstill in the Korean War(1950). At that time China didn't have either artillery or tank support.
@@shermanpeabody6102 USSR don't worry iam just air we don't send gun, artillery,and tank
@@shermanpeabody6102 The US and UN forces also had no directive to push beyond the 38th parallel. McArthur did it the first time against Truman’s wishes and it’s part of what got him fired
@@ryananggoro493 USSR only sent little Air support at early stage of war, later they sent nothing, this betrayal is the fuse of the later Sino-Soviet split.
No political jokes or anything, Pure analysis and just the military, This kind of video is rare when it comes to comparing major superpowers, Respect!
You definitely love missionary
And you love doggy😊@@puresuace7978
The correct translation for "Group army" (Chinese 集团军”） is "combined arms corps". This is used in the official English translation of the Chinese defence white paper.
Don't help these westoid barbarians understand our military better you dingus.
I REALLY appreciate the subtitles on the units giving us an approximate size. Thanks
100 %
Nothing irritates me more than content producers who spout extensive numbers, but can't put up a simple graphic of that.
Kudos to Battle Order.
The graphics just keep getting better and better
The actors were well trained.
What actors?
@@bytpokornykareem8897
Apollo moon landing from Hollywood really sells to cowchildren.
The video is done very carefully, but there are some mistakes. The PCL191 rocket launcher has a caliber of 370mm and a range of 350-400 kilometers. The PCL03 300mm rocket launcher has a range of 150 kilometers
shhhhhh!!!
I don't know which side you're on but if you're on the side of the good guys, you should read their Art of War.
a side note on the M-46 130mm gun: for a long time, it used to remained one of the longest land artillery around, with a range of 27km with conventional shell, and 38km with rocket-assisted/base-bleed shell
it and the 152mm D-20 howitzer are still the main stay of vietnamese artillery at division/army corp level
The long-range rocket launcher system has the farthest range from China, reaching 400 kilometers
Bharat is one of Vietnam's only allies. Do you think modernization of the army to match the PLA, PLA rocket forces will help?
I think standardization on 155mm caliber, with the Bharati ATAGS, mounted on a truck, will help considerably in any artillery duel.
Vietnam will also need drones that they can optionally also purchase from us if they feel like it.
The Pralay - 500km range missile, and Pinaka will help against the PLA's missile artillery. They still have a thousand plus
cruise missiles. That is a difficult problem to solve because of the MTCR, but Vietnam can definitely develop its own
cruise missile. However the Pakistani Babur cruise missile has a foreign father, so can Vietnam's cruise missile.
@@datoolz0 China's long-range rocket launcher is second to none in the world. If China is the second and no country is the first, as for the defense industry, only China has a complete defense industry chain, which Vietnam cannot match.
China has been producing large-caliber artillery shells, and its inventory has been increasing. Compared with its economic strength, Vietnam's inventory is not enough for China to put its teeth between its teeth. In the counterattack against Vietnam in self-defense, China's artillery was fired for a long time. The barrel was red, and the shells were loaded directly from the transport vehicle. According to the Vietnamese army, the artillery intensity of the people's Liberation Army was higher than that of the US military after the war. Since the War to resist US aggression and Aid Korea, China has always paid attention to the delivery of artillery forces. The artillery of each unit has surpassed that of the US military, and now it is the first in the world.
@@zhiyangzhang1077 Probably so judging by the video here. I think Vietnam must modernize its artillery too, and while it has options here,
its cheapest option would be purchasing the K9 from Chosun and ATAGS artillery.
Probably MLRS artillery too. It's clear that a future war with the PLA will be hard to win without enough firepower.
The Range of the PHL-16 you have are export variant, for domestic use the ranges are:
370mm: 300-350km
750mm: 400-500km
With the US 101st Airborne elements stationed in Europe I’d love to see a breakdown of their force structure and equipment. Love the page great stuff as always!
What are everyone thoughts on those 122 mm MRLS at the brigade level? Does the benefit vs logistic cost pan out? It is a lot of munition to push forward. Unguided and at around 50km range, feels kind of awkward. Presumably the benefits is its range over tube arty but would there be concentrated target in that 50km edge worth the brigade to lug that ammo around?
If you put the MLRS 10-20 km behind your forward line of troops, they can reach 30-40 km behind the enemy lines and the howitzer gun line (~30-40 km range). Counterbattery radars are imprecise so it can be good to just dump a load of submunitions on saturation bombing against detected points of origins for artillery or radar.
The MLRSs can be more effective if there is aerial assets to the brigades that can reach 40-50km behind the enemy forward line of troops. With today's drones pushed down to squads and platoon levels, there's no reason why they can't have one.
I think it stresses the logistics train too much. Standard truck can carry at most 1 reload. Where as same truck can carry many times more the ammunition for tubed artillery. Being unguided they are too imprecise for brigade level action, better at division or corps level.
@@VT-mw2zb Thanks for your thoughts. I get the proposed counterbattery purpose and the ranged advantage, but wouldn't a guided munition coupled with the UAV scouting be more cost efficient? I'm not questioning its utility, I am inquiring the cost benefit balance at the brigade level. I get a sense the 122mm MRLS were a hold over from the soviet era where their attacking regiment is saturating concentrate opponents located forward edge of advance. Does this still hold sway in modern times?
@@syjiang you have 5 minutes between the CBAT radar giving you a point of origin grid and the guys who were just at said point just leaving, if he's good at his job. MLRS is a fast saturation solution, but it's faster than the drone flying over there.
Now, drones are not magical birds that are invulnerable and see everything in God's Kingdom. Occasionally in the drone footage, you can see the zoomed out view vs. The really zoomed in view and helpful red circles. Try and see if you can spot something in the zoomed out view. With drone footage, you are looking at a few minutes of success vs. hours and hours of nothingness. A company-sized unit may have a front of 3km, a depth to the enemy gun line of 10kn and have 1-2 company level drone.
The modern battlefield is very empty
Guided ammo can also been chose
The 152mm and 130mm are actually division and regiment level aty and the serve in the few divisions escaped brigatization during the last round of reforms.
Thanks!
12:10 Chinese always display manpower training, called "trained in worst condition" assuming all-electric things are disabled.
This is, in fact, a very wise approach.
Chinese military even still keeps a group of message pigeons
US Army could potentially match China's new artillery if they go through with new artillery as well. US Army is currently testing Patria 120mm NEMO mortars to be installed on Strykers, OMFV and AMPV (those can go into ABCT and SBCT's). US Army is also testing Hawkeye 105mm howitzer which can go into IBCT(air borne forces), and SBCT's (potentially even USMC). In addition, US Army is also in the process on developing/acquiring 155 wheeled SPG for SBCT's ans potentially for Airborne forces & USMC (best option is mounted on a 6x6 truck like Nexter CAESAR or Elbit ATMOS 200 and should be able to be airlifted by C-130). The M777 would also need an upgraded variant potentially with a longer barrel similar to wheeled 155 SPG with 155/52 howitzer.
For the ABCT's, they will have the newest M10A9 with ERCA 155/58 gun but there's some sources that US Army is having problems especially on them squeezing a lot more range out of it. A 155/55 similar to what they tested on M777 could also be an alternative meanwhile the wheeled SPG and upgraded M777 would use 155/52 which is becoming a new NATO standard 155 howitzer (it also as advantage to having commonality between the two platforms).
Any estimate on when the US military could adopt those systems?
yeah except we have air.. and you cant believe what communist say.. look at what russia went on about for years.. and look at the force they put to use.. its a joke. and china gets most of the gear and tech from russia. most of the stuff china said or people claime they have its just propaganda..
@@kevinchang6979 Patria 120mm NEMO mortar and Mandus Hawkeye is still on testing phase and it's not yet sure if they got adapted. The wheeled SPG is US Army wants to test most of available ones now and look what are their options if they want to adapt it or develop their own version (which is a stupid idea since a lot of mature 155 wheeled SPG are already good enough). ERCA for M10A9 is still on early stages of development and they haven't even tried installing the autoloader. They tested an extended M777 with 155/55 howitzer but after that there's no program as of yet. A lot of things I've mentioned is still years away.
The US military does not need to match
only destroy it.
Hey just a heads up. While some information on its own may be unclassified, compiling it can change whether or not it can be shared.
A fantastic analysis, impartial and based on available statistics without deviating into hypothesis. This is the kind of rational thinking we need more of.
The same could be said of your comment.
Good analysis.
I'm pretty sure ammunition would be easier to make than platforms, some of which were completely ignored in both areas.
Well size and numbers don't have much effect
great video!
I don't think they do translate to practice in this case. There are really no seemingly possible scenarios where the US and China would be in a conventional war where artillery would be used in mass. Such a war would be mostly in the air, at sea, and fought remotely. Artillery is more of a player if Russia and China went to war. The two countries massing artillery is a response to geography.
India and China or Korea
its more about india and china aswell as the possible taiwan invasion, the only time chinese and americans would fight would be a limited american force in taiwan which is very unlikely considering the risk of china's hypersonic anti ship missiles and the low incentive to defend taiwan.
China vs Indian border conflict with american supplied artillery
@@lyrkk470 low incentive to defend Taiwan…. Ya sure, you know that we rely on them for the worlds most advanced semiconductors? Including China
@@somezsaltz6835 that can be manufactured elsewhere, stopping trade with our largest partner (china) and the risk of loosing an aircraft carrier is much more severe.
Hmm, that is strange because afaik the 100mm mortar was specifically designed to replace the 120mm mortar as the infantry's fire support.
The PLA has a different approach to artillery (Gun-Howitzer/Mortar/Rocket) than the U.S. and Russia.
Every time when it comes to China, the background music is always grim and depressing. Just like what profesional BBC woud do.
As it should be.
@@randomlyentertaining8287 keep dreaming in your lala land bro
At the type of 120mm mortar, China has a new product which can auto reload and aim on the light vehicle. But the military does not seem to be interested in purchasing.
It's very similar to LAV EFSS. I think the issue is that the autoloader is expensive but doesn't really provide much benefit other than less personnel. Where in the US that extra person is hard to bring it, it might not be a issue for China.
I think the only units that will realistically equip them are the light CABs which are supposed to be entirely based around Mengshi tactical vehicles. With the heavy and medium CABs fielding 120mm gun mortars and seeing it is possible to put 122mm howitzers on Mengshi vehicles, I bet the PLA is exploring the possibility of a Mengshi based 120mm gun mortar for their light CABs.
If tanks have stabilised main guns, how long will it be before mobile indirect fire platforms will be able to engage whilst on the move?
The issue is that artillery depends on calculation. These calculations depend on having an understanding of precisely where you are firing from to base the trajectories. Adding in the difficult factors of velocity of transit and you need naval-grade targeting computers, which are far from the level of accuracy of land based systems. Also the damage that artillery recoil will impart to an unbraced suspension and vehicle frame will cause either rapid decreases in efficency/capacity, or a level of reinforcement that will add tons of weight to a platform that increasingly diminishes the effectiveness of its mobility.
@Roland Griffin idk but based on the guy above's reply, naval based ballistic targeting system are less prone to fatigue & damage from the vehicle's own recoil, thanks to most naval platform's size that allows the gun and the targeting system to be put seperated from each other;
with a more compact platform like a tank or a SPG, recoil shock is harder to mitigate
additionally, naval platform's aforementioned size allows bigger systems to be installed, compared to land vehicles which cannot go up to the size of a Maus just to accommodate similarly bigger systems, for practical reasons
I like the new graphics, but I think in instances where you're captioning the things you're saying, you need to keep more words on the screen. They were moving too quickly, and the section felt busy and off
Interesting thanks
5:00 isn't completely accurate. US light and Stryker infantry battalions use an "arms room concept" for mortars, meaning they can draw different size mortars depending on mission. Light companies can draw 60mm or 81mm, giving a battalion. It can maximize firepower over maneuver for 6x81mm mortars and 4x120mm mortars. The Stryker Bn often just draws 81mm.
9:00 US has ERCA now, giving 155mm M109A7s 70km conventional round range.
Brilliant video as always! Would it also be possible to see a video on the naval mine capabilities of the US and China respectively? It's a much neglected area and has sunk more ships in combat than any form since WWII. Certainly, it's one of the doctrinal priorities for the Chinese navy
Anti access/Area Denial in general would be a good subject to cover concerning PRC/Taiwan
@@TheShadow812 yes it's true. China's focus is access denial. They may have the largest navy in the world at the moment. However, they can't really go anywhere with it besides home waters, and friendly neighboring ports. The power projection capabilities they possess is only for Taiwan, and somewhat Japan. The Indian Navy by itself can block China's energy needs coming from the middle east. If that were to happen, the PLA Navy will be as useless as the German Navy in WW1.
as i watch this i constantly ask myself, how does artillery prioritize fire, there are dozens of calls for arty support a minute who decides and what are the factors into those decisions?
Very well explained 👍
Can any of you compare the cost of making the weapons from both the countries?
I would say it's about 2.5-3 to 1 ratio for naval ships.
@@bearpolo3618 no no no, truth is 7:1
Another takeaway from this is China's willingness and ability to have multiple platforms based on expected combat conditions and needs. Their procurement is sufficiently indigenous they don't have to rely on Soviet leftovers or licensed variants. Even more telling is that corruption is not so out of control that the PLA is only getting useless equipment nor is procurement being hindered by politicians interfering for their own purposes. That speaks to a professional and institutionaly trusted leadership.
The CPC is structured and well-organized. One-party means only one common goal, and the system of meritocracy ensures only competent people becomes CPC/government members instead of just being born into a wealthy family with pre-existing connections and "lobby", then pay massive dollars for ads and take money from "donors" for your campaign to run more ads to get exposure and more votes while indebting you to those "donors" in the process to run their favors.
That is why American military R&D spending and everything else is so god damn expensive whereas China can produce the same quality if not higher with a much smaller budget. Everything has to go through "middlemans" that takes a bit out of the budget here and there before finally getting the money to where it belongs.
It also goes to show Xi's anti-corruption campaign for the last few years paid off very well. When was the last time an American politician was arrested for corruption anyway and how far and few in between is that? You can get news of a CPC member being fired or dismiss weekly.
如果按中国的腐败标准，美国总统都不合格
@@saint8257 That is such a blatant lie. Dictatorships always promote loyalty over merit when it endangers the party and Xi's anti-corrutpion campaign heavily focused on removing political rivals.
There is this fantasy that dictatorships will work towards the common good and that it can be better achieved because there is no itnerference. Not only do dictatorships make rash and bad decisions because the party does not tolerate dissent it also promotes a culture of yesmen in addition.
@@rick7424 lol
Your entire premise is false since the beginning because you are premediated on the "China is a dictatorship", hence a preconceived bias which immediately makes you uncredible. Do you even know how the Chinese governance system works or are you just going to parrot brain dead CIA propaganda? Did you spend even 5 minutes to research into this independently without touching Western corporate media?
If you can't say yes to either one of those question then stfu.
Chinese, Vietnamese are amongst the people who considers their country very democratic - that is, the government is working just as they want them to (see: Latana Democracy Perception Index; Harvard's study 'Taking China's pulse'). This is in complete opposite of the "Western democracies" where government approval ratings are all down in the sh*t hole. This means all you and the rest of the dumb CIA drone Westoids calling China a "dictatorship" or "authoritarian" are literally just projecting your own insecurities and flaws onto other countries whilst you sit on a couch thousands of miles away reading CNN or its affiliates newspapers.
Contrary to your complete ignorance, Chinese people do actually vote for their government.
They vote at a local levels within villages/towns/cities on who gets to become their representative, then their representative who won would proceed to work within the CPC and have their performance recorded by another branch. If the rep. meets/exceeds the target goal, they are promoted and once they are in the big circle, they themselves can vote for who gets to be the General Secretary.
Every members within the CPC are evaluated by performance and meeting the goals set out for them before they can be promoted. This is as opposed to your "Western democracy" where your government just appoint anyone they like, that's why in the US you get transgender nuclear advisors and military advisors, one of which was a thief to put on a circus show to the public for "LGBTQ representation" 🤡🤡😂😂
Literal laughing stock of the world.
Call Xi's anti corruption campaign however you like, but the fact is most Chinese interviewed and surveyed even by Western papers admitted to perceiving visible improvement in corruption levels.
Culture of 'yesmen'? That's pretty racist of you, but I wonder how a culture of 'yesmen' can have over 500 protests per day and the CPC actively work to address them which is part of the reason why their approval rating is so high (yes, there is an actual article of it - China's 500 protests per day). Even the two most recent biggest protests about local banking frauds of one region which your WSM blew out of proportions and the COVID protests were quickly addressed and fixed within 1-2 weeks and immediate investigations followed by arrests were made. How many of your protests are ever addressed? 🤡
The BLM movement protest, which is one of the biggest in American modern history, actually produced ZERO MEANINGFUL policy changes or reforms.
When was the last time a major government official of these shiny 'Western democracy' was arrested for corruption? 😂 Or are they so perfect that there aren't any at all???
Sad little man can't realize he's projecting his own country's 'authoritarianism' where their votes literally do nothing for decades except changing the mask of the government. 😂
残酷的现实就是虽然中国腐败严重，但是每天都有从上至下的官员被逮捕，并送进监狱。
而所谓自以为是，自欺欺人的廉洁的美国，海量腐败已经合法化，资本家拥有凌驾于法律之上的权利。
几乎没有任何美国政客和资本家被逮捕的信息。
Beautiful article
" It's not the wand, it's the magician ".
Man the truck mounted MRLS and SPGs look so cool
Ch1na has LOTS of artillery systems, from lighter to heavier. Even enormous quantities in storage, of rocket projectors, SPGs (self propelled guns/howitzers), and towed systems. Same with armored vehicles and tanks (MBTs and LTs), and other systems. They've reorganized their forces, but still have a lot, when including reserves and paramilitary formations, and all the stored-away equipment. Ch1na still has ample quantities of PL-66 (152mm) among other systems of that caliber, as well as new 155mm designs.
Still trying to figure out why Soviet doctrine armies need 4-5 different variations of MLRS
Intresting, in Poland 155 SPGs are on the brigade level
Does Poland have army/corp level?
Not really. Polish 155 mm SP guns are attached to Division level Artillery Regiments. Each Artillery Regiment has 1 group of ~24 X 155 mm guns. Poland only ordered 120 of these 155mm gun systems, which is enough to equip their 4 divisions with 1 artillery group each plus some spares.
Maneuver brigades use older soviet era 122 mm or 152 mm guns.
The size of their artillery is just astounding and quite frightening...because contrarily to Russia we know that they could maintain an industrial production capacity to sustain the materials for very long...
No shit. They don't call China the world's factory for nothing.
However corruption is the same if not greater. What dictatorships claim is always greater then reality
@@Kilo_11 Keep in my russia military budget are tiny compare to china.
@@piojulian64 there is corruption in the military industrial complex, but not in quality control. That’s why shits expensive in America
@@piojulian64 you have no understanding how american corruption works.
1. Russian and Chinese corruption results in poor quality equipment, training and leadership (you can buy a rank in the military as high as general).
2. American corruption MOSTLY results in overspending and buying too much equipment
370mm rocket has a range 350km for PLA and 280km for export. The export model's range was confirmed by NORINCO advertisement.
Sir,
as always your videos are amazingly done and, from my limited knowledge, superbly researched. However, the strange 3D-ish format gave me quite the headache. I would suggest the older 2D presentation style format was more suitable.
Thank you for the amazing content
I really like the Ground News concept tho.
So then what's the difference between US Army DIVARTY and the BCT Artillery Battalion and USMC Artillery Regiment?
DIVARTY currently (or since 2006ish) hasn't had any artillery battalions since they were transferred to the BCTs. They actually dissolved most of them and then started reforming them. When the DIVARTYs are made into proper artillery HQs, the arty battalions in BCTs will be transferred back to the DIVARTY but maintain direct support relationships with the BCTs.
Marine Artillery Regiments are sort of a DIVARTY equivalent. Both have 155mm howitzers mainly, although Marine Arty Regiments also have HIMARS because the USMC doesn't have independent artillery brigades outside of the division. In the US Army, MLRS/HIMARS are in field artillery brigades, but can be attached in support of divisions under DIVARTY control in some circumstances.
@@BattleOrder Battle Order replied to me 😮
@@Pats0c i generally reply if I know the answer lol
16:20 PHL16 or (PCL-191) long-range rocket launcher (hereinafter referred to as Xinyuanhuo) is the successor of the PHL03 rocket launcher, which can launch a variety of rockets and missiles. The effective range of the Type 16 launching 300mm guided rockets is 150 kilometers, the maximum distance of launching 370mm guided rockets can reach 300 kilometers, and the accuracy and range of launching 750mm short-range ballistic missiles or cruise missiles are higher and farther, according to rumors It can hit 400 kilometers away and the error does not exceed 10 meters.
All data of Chinese range in this video are just make up
not 300km，is480km😂
You have to account for how fast a country can manufacture ammunitions and military equipment once they run out. In addition, the cost to manufacture them are critical.
The phl-03 and phl-16 are organized into 12 vehicle btn not 10.
a severe lack of ear pro for all these dudes shooting arty.
Stops being an issue after long enough
@@danielzhang5395 What
fair point, new ones only appeared recently in training
@@NeputuniaNepp busted hearing needs no hearing protection, he made a joke about that
@@danylomotchanyi9441 what? Speak louder, I can’t hear you.
From a historical point of view, China’s archers and strong cavalry have also been lightly protected by mail armor since ancient times. In Europe, plate armor and heavy cavalry are replaced by modern Chinese artillery. There are so many plains in the United States, I think it is the result of Germany fighting the Soviet Union in World War II
Question. There are so many different kinds and variants. Is this not detrimental.
It probably sacrifices some logistical streamlining at the group army and strategic (manufacturing/procuring) levels to streamline logistics at the brigade level, since the platforms share components with those used in the maneuver battalions. Also might be a political angle to do with manufacturers that i don’t know about
5:57 82mm and 120mm........
6:11 PLL-05 is a wheeled vehicle SIMILAR TO:
[NONA -S] vehicle with (very good) anti armor ammunition....Penetration:+400mm
Also look at [PLZ 10]
7:20 (ATGM BTY)
11:35
11:58 rocket detachable pods
14:10 PLZ-05AAT TOP ATTACK SHELL.....
Are you interested in doing a video covering the People's Armed Police?
The China Meteorological Administration has over 7000 AA guns and 8000 rockets. The largest in the world
It’s just the standing reserve for pla
@@seraphimworms899 metrologic as in astronomy guys?
They have Anti aircraft? Wtf do they watch in the night sky over China😂
@@user-uc4vg4rg9e days and nights by radars and satellites. And has live firing every week, very experienced.
@@will4519 they are like the national guard in the US, i think that's the closest counter part
As someone with no military experience, I find that there are a number of topics that I do not understand but I struggle to find any answers to, probably because it is obvious to those with military experience and so it is often overlooked. The main question I have, which I would love to see a video on, but might be able to just be answered in the comments, is what the different types of grenades and shells are, their history, organisation and use.
For example, during ww2 it seems that every soldier was issued with hand grenades, but I have heard that the german stick grenades performed quite differently to the allied fragmentation grenades. And then what about smoke grenades, anti-tank grenades, white phosphorous grenades, illumination rounds and so on. Who were these munitions issued to and how were they used? I also have the same question about rifle grenades and light mortars in terms of what ammunition was supplied and used. I would love to understand the evolution of grenades, mortars, grenade launchers and other small arms indirect fire weapons over the past 150 years or so and how their organisation and use has changed.
Great video as ever Battle Order, much appreciated
That's a very large topic. Books are your best resource, videos are second best resource, youtube comments are not a resource.
I was about to say.... These topics are complex and most grunts couldn't tell you, aside from that they are and what they're for. You'll want to look at Historians like Drachinifel, Military Aviation History Visualized, and The Chieften to find good books. Drach in particular does huge QnA videos and MAHV will be able to tell you about WW2 German and allied kit, including small arms tactics. These are the kind of things MilHistorians write books for. One of the ones I suggested should be able to tell you a good book if you're willing to look.
To answer what a layman can...
German Stick Grenades were Concussion grenades. Essentially, a frag grenade kills by sending a bit of metal through someone, and has a much smaller killzone on the pressure wave alone. The Potato Mashers (allied name for German Stick Grenades) were just extra explosives in a thin case. They killed almost exclusively with the pressure wave, and did this to try and perform better in trenches. It should be noted that nearly all Germans actually used traditional frag Grenades: Potato Mashers were rare.
Edit more in as I think of it.
Welcome to the hobby... You won't "know very little" for long asking these questions.
If you are really curious you can look at the current published US artillery manuals. They have sections on all the different shell types, what they are used for, what systems use them, how well they perform according to experiments and how old each shell type is.
Reports on foreign equipment exist too. They are harder to find. Other countries self report but much less than the US does. However you will find that many countries use the same systems or ammunition. The Abrams uses a 120mm from Reinmetal. You can guess where else that gun might show up.
Modern armies are like Lego collections made up of 10 or so different kits being traded amongst a household of 12 to 14 particularly acquisitive siblings.
As others have pointed out, that's a huge topic. But the general gist of their purpose is:
Fragmentation grenades kill by shrapnel(the grenade shell breaking apart) which has a larger kill radius. German stick grenades (not their primary grenade actually) primarily killed via blast pressure from the explosive itself. That can be quite effective in confined space as the pressure wave reflects. There was an extra fragmentation sleeve soldiers could put on the stick grenades though. Frag grenades are sometimes called 'defensive' grenades since their lethal radius is larger than typical throwing distance requiring you to take cover once thrown. Cover is usually available for the defender. "HE/concussion" grenades were more offensive since the lethal radius from the blast is smaller so the attacker don't need to take cover in theory. In practice, this distinction didn't really matter.
Smoke grenades are used to provide visual obstruction between you and the enemy. You mostly want to throw at where the enemy is to obscure their vision, not yours but you can also make a case for the other way around depending on circumstance. Smoke is also used for signalling, either for air support, rescue operations, or historically artillery spotting. White phosphorus is related to smoke grenades. In fact white phosphorus is frequently used in smoke rounds. It's just a type of chemical used in either smoke, illumination, or incendiary rounds. They aren't mutually exclusive.
Illumination rounds as their name suggest are used to illuminate something, usually the enemy at night. More common in the past than modern day due to advances in NVG. They have a timed/altitude fuze that sets it off in mid air and are slow burning so they can light up the area for a longer period of time than a singular explosion. Many but not all include parachute so they can stay in the air longer and light up a larger radius of area. Illumination rounds may be fired behind the target so they silhouette against the light, while not lighting yourself up. This is commonly done in naval battles prior to widespread use of radar directed gunnery.
Anti-tank grenades can come in various type depending on it being thrown, or launched from a tube. But hand thrown ones weren't very useful since the warhead, usually a HEAT type require it to land at a specific angle. Some have magnetic attachment that allow you to stick it on a tank rather than throw it... Or a drogue chute so you can throw atop of a tank and let it land at a right angle on the roof of the tank. Better than nothing but better alternatives arrived soon after.
Rifle grenades were the predecessor to grenade launchers. GLs weren't invented until later. Rifle grenades was the norm and they were shorter ranged with less explosive power than mortars. They did however provide longer throwing distance compared to hand grenade and could be carried by a single infantry. This gave squads and platoons some degree of "artillery" esque fire support where as mortars are at least company level. Rifle grenades required you to stick a grenade at the end of the rifle making it unable to shoot conventional rounds... and were hard to aim as you had to place the buttstock on the ground, and can't shoulder fire it. This led to the adoption of grenade launchers which could be shoulder fired but that mean another weapon soldiers had to carry until the underslung grenade launcher was developed allowing it to be one system with your rifle.
Rifle grenades retain one key advantage over grenade launchers though. They can have a "oversized" projectile, much larger than the typical 40mm diameter of grenade launchers. In fact, rifle grenades can fire very powerful HEAT rounds not seen on typical infantry held grenade launchers. In fact, most light 60mm mortars don't have any anti-tank rounds comparable to those available to rifle grenades. But this advantage isn't needed anymore due to the prevalence of RPGs.
Light 60mm mortars, are longer range than typical grenade launchers but more cumbersome. They can be carried by a single person though so can be given to lower echelon units compared to larger mortar types. Its just to give lower echelon unit organic indirect fire support capability. Its higher arc of fire means its harder to aim, and less accurate but can go over hardcover. Organic fire support is useful because response times are much quicker than requesting fire support from higher command. You also don't want to saturate higher echelon artillery with every dug out that's posing a problem.
@@neurofiedyamato8763 Adding to this white phosphorus grenades/ shells disperse burning bits of phosphorus and it's probably one of the worst things you can do to a person. Then there are gas grenades of various sizes and roles, russia and probably some other nations have artillery capable of firing nuclear ammunition, then there is flechette (like a giant dart shotgun), airburst, GPS guided and list goes on, the list is vast.
In ww2 alone there was like at least 3 types of different armor piercing grenades for tanks (modern MTBs don't have grenades against armor)
Should make an investigation of how many cannon shells can make in top3 countries, in terms of numbers and total mass
Ngl, I love all the mortars and howitzers on vehicles.
What people always forget is simply , NATO doesn't fight if there is no chance of a AIR SUPERIORITY ... cause all training till 2022 was based on Air Superiority ..
Thus they need less artillery but the artillery they deploy are state of the art for the simple reason , only counter artillery are dangerous. infact in 2022 this is the first real war that involves trenches and artillery slug matches again. where Air Power play a very minor role. instead of what NATO would do , with CAS and overwhelming shock and awe from the Air.
Alright, cool we can create a robust anti air network to attrit and deter NATO airpower, and they just won't show up.
Or they have to fight in a contested airspace and figure stuff out. Having trained with some US mechanized formations, they really do act as if they're the hottest game in town, pulling up on the top of the biggest hills without a care in the world. Quite similar to Turkeys operations at the beginning of their Syrian invasion in many ways. Tactics like this leave them very vulnerable to a near peer enemy
The US would have a tough time gaining air superiority in Asia as major US airports are within range of SRBM/other munitions from China.
Also carrier groups would have a tough time operating due to proliferation of long range anti-ship missiles.
@@kevinchang6979 yeah Chinese missiles will make any conflict incredibly hard on the Americans. Home field advantage is real. Unlike the Russians, the Chinese will be able actually build more rockets when they run out.
In other words, NATO won’t be fighting Russia or China. That’s what you’re saying.
No one forgets this, every one knows this. Why do people all ways bring this up like it is meant to be a big shock.
This is just a idea on a video
What about a video on Ukraine artillery forces, like breaking down it Gis Arta c2 system how it's using it small inventory of guns to effectively beat Russian artillery force.
I really like artillery video and love this channel keep the videos coming
Outstanding video and info!
im surprised that gun-mortars are not more popular in the west
It seems like a first choice against fortifications by direct or indirect fire
They also require more logistics support.
@@Bytional Relative to what?
@@jic1 Infantry mortars. A lightweight 120mm mortar like the K6 the US uses can be carried by a pickup truck or even in the back of a regular car. A heavier towed 120mm like the French Mo120 RT offers the same kind of range as those gun mortars but can be towed by any small buggy like those things from Polaris.
A gun mortar if used for direct fire forces you to put your mortar within line of sight which is a risk. You could take it and use the PCP-001 seen in the video but that's not great (and you would need a recoil absorption mechanism), especially if you can do the same with a CGM4 or a PF-98A.
For bigger things (like 120mm), you also need a bigger vehicle which needs to be armoured and that means at the very least a 6x6 weighing about 15 tonnes. Not a problem for mechanised forces (which would likely use mortar carriers anyway) but very much so for light forces.
Additionally, if you are in a heavy force using gun mortars, you may already have 120mm guns available to you through your tanks. If you are in a medium force however, it could be interesting as the presence of light tanks, assault guns or tank destroyers in not a guarantee (although it should be noted that the Chinese do use assault guns).
That being said, in both cases, the gun-mortar provides an advantage over the mortar carrier independent from the direct fire capability, which is the ability to fire entirely from under armour instead of having to open the top of the vehicle. To my knowledge, only two other systems have that capability, namely the Mjolner used by Sweden and the Wiesel 2 mortar system used by Germany.
On the other hand, you could counter that there is the 2S9 Nona present in Russian airborne forces but in this case, the Nona is not used as a battalion mortar system but as a regiment-level artillery asset in place of howitzers.
They are popular in some European nations. It is the US that do not use them mainly because infantry mortars are better suited for overseas deployment.
15:18 Is that an unsecured charge bag flying off the canister tube at the side? lol
Sure looks like it lol
Must likely to be camouflage tarpaulin .
You have to appreciate Chinese modernisation in a very short time......
dont belive it.. its mostly not all but a great portion of it is just propaganda trash... just like russia
@@asianamericancasestudies6434 they love stealing American tech
@@asianamericancasestudies6434 agreed. A lot of the advanced tech sector in the US is propped up by a continuous influx of highly talented Chinese immigrants and their offspring. It was historically a brain drain from china but seems to be reversing recently with all the anti-chinese propaganda in the US. It's a fact not enough americans understand/appreciate
@@asianamericancasestudies6434 Immigrant success run deep in the history of the United States, same with the italians, germans, hispanic and various other ethnicities who migrated to the United States for opportunities. I wouldn't be too prideful about it if you ever were, it doesn't prove anything.
Regardless I understand if its hard for people to see the USA as anything cohesive when taken into fact that the US is practically a melting pot. and when people often picture "Americans" as caucasian peoples, rather then all of the above under 1 flag. Which mind you, is quite interesting considering most countries who were or are as large as the US, normally collapse in the 100-200 year mark.
Do the Chinese reciprocally lay in an Artillery Battery and employ precision adjustment of fire such as the US Army does, or do they employ the doctrine of mass firing over large areas such as the old Soviet military employed in its adaptation of its doctrine of the employment of Artillery?
Can you do the guide to Australian army?
16:40
PHL-03 actually have a range varie from 300 to 500 Kilometers.
And China also have a series of rockets called WS series (卫士WeiShi meaning Guardian). who are used for the same purpose, but better, and only sold for export.
PHL-03 and WS rockets are actually cheap.replacement of cruise missiles, short range ballistic missiles, anti-submarine missiles, anti-ship missiles, anti-ship and submarine missiles, and many other surface to surface missiles, they are mostly used to fill the range gap between regular artillary guns and tactical ballistic missles.
Even tho WS series are actually better than PHL-03, China didn't really equip the WS series, because China just filled that gap by using more TBM, China is selling WS to those third world countries who can't produce enough TBMs
除了卫士1/2还有重装旅直属的420毫米攻坚火箭炮。不过那个确实有点欺负人。这个编制本来就是为西伯利亚的永备工事准备的。
"They outgun us, outproduce us, outrange us...but at what cost?"
The cost is also cheaper. They use slave labor in China
@@chillstep4life you mean in US prison system?
@@chillstep4life 你被洗脑的很彻底，！！
Probably at the same cost
The question is whether the airtillery hits the target and precision
Outstanding presentation, thanks for your hard work.
Self propelled artillery that are highly manueverable and capable of shooting and scooting within minutes seems to be the direction that modern armies are going in terms of their portable artillery capabilities. The widespread availability of drones creates large risks for static artillery as seen in the current conflict in eastern Europe. Nowadays, artillery units conducting operations against near peer adversaries must be able to perform a barrage and move out of dodge before the enemy does counter battery or even bring in surveillance assets such as drones could spot and track them.
Self propelled is also a logistical nightmare
Towed artillery can't be replaced, due to the fact that it's infinitely more Air-mobile, and can be moved over using helicopters
Well put.
You need to go that way if you want to survive in the modern battlefield. 30 seconds is what you have after shooting to GTFO or you're in the danger zone of counter battery.
@@xela6349 The USMC ditched all there self propelled in 1990
Phl16(phl191)750mm rocket ,the range is more than 500km.
an unbiased video about army comparison on youtube ? HOW
This guy has single handedly increased my interest and knowledge in military organization and how they work
Phenomenal video and info. Appreciate the work you put in, it shows
This video is no-bullshit and valuable
Watching this channel makes me want to play Squad...
We should call an army of artillery divisions as an orchestra.
Hey, quick question, How much worse would the mobility be for a towed howitzer (like m777) vs. an SPG (like m109) or trucked SPG (Like archer from Sweden or caesar from France)?
Tracked is going to have better offroad capability than most wheeled platforms, though the gap between the two has shrank a lot over the years.
Wheeled SP and towed will have quite similar mobility, the big difference will usually be in pack/unpack time.
I think the numbers I've seen thrown around for a M777 is it takes less than 3 minutes to emplace and 2-3 minutes to displace. For a M109A6 Paladin, it takes about 30 seconds to halt and fire, and I'd imagine near instant displacement time (although someone else could probably comment on that). A Caesar requires a little set-up but it most likely shaves a minute or so off.
The general standard for counter-battery moves is 3 minutes, so a modern towed piece with good ergonomics can do it but a self-propelled piece can be further away by the time the enemy can respond.
But in terms of operational/strategic mobility, the towed pieces give more options for airborne and air assault/sling-loaded operations
@@BattleOrder Ok, thank you very much. I am interested in air assault particularly (its why I found your channel) so this is interesting.
@@BattleOrder Cool
If towed howitzers still have a place it's in the air assault operations. Especially for larger calibers since something like the M777, which was specifically designed to be very lightweight, can be sling loaded by a UH-60 Blackhawk. Lighter SPGs, ala Hawkeye 105mm, have potential in that area as well, though and I believe the US Army is looking into them as a potential lead in for a light gun replacement
Honestly i dont get why western countries dont adapt those 129 mm rapid fire mortars mounted on APCs. I thin it would be a battle deciding weapon in bakhmut.
Like the CV90 Mjölnir. Its genius. Its this intermediate rapid capability which you just cant exspect mortar infantry to pull of. Especially counter battery fire is no problem for them. but they can aquire targets ridicolously fast...can anyone explain to me why NATO doesnt really adapt those vehicles?
Haha... your NAFO US Federal uniform is great!
Keep close fire support actually close is a pretty good lesson for Russians.
I have a question about the 127 mm naval guns with the VULCANO ammunition and the 155 mm AGS of the US NAVY, would it be possible for them to be used on land in a system similar to the ARCHER? . The features and ranges of these guns together with their ammunition could make important differences. Thanks .
Leonardo, in cooperation with Diehl, is producing a 155 mm version of the VULCANO ammunition for NATO artillery (mainly the PzH 2000 which is also in use in Italy), so there is no need for a land based version of a navalized gun. They are also working on an upgrade for the 127mm and 155mm ammunition types that combines the GPS guidance that is already present with a terminal laser guidance for increased accuracy if the target is lased.
@@Schnittertm1 I knew about the fact that they were working on the 155 mm VULCANO, but I didn't know about the laser guidance in those same ammunition. If I commented on the 127 mm, it was mainly because of the rates of fire that can reach 40 shots per minute and a certain anti-aircraft capacity that can be useful to shoot down drones. Thanks .
Main issue with American M109 Paladin is that it has shorter barrel than the rest of the NATO SPGs, there are reports from Ukraine that Excalibur round fired from Polish AHS Krab 155mm L52 gun has a range of up to 70km (43 miles).
@@czaja995 He said about the VULCANO ammunition because its range is between 90 and 120 km in the 127 mm pieces. Thanks .
@@arbelico2 current VULCANO ammunition for the 155mm SPG has slightly less range than that for 127mm naval gun, around 90km, but barrel length has very big impact on this range, so it will be 90km for German, France, Polish artillery with L52 barrel, but for US L39 barrel it will be significantly less around 60 km.
Well we don’t have enough 155 mm ammo…..
You should feature IDF the failing advanced army
3:51
Battle Order is a fella? 👀
Keep in mind that nearly all the performance specifications you find online for PLA equipment comes from downgraded export variants.
Will there be a parade this year, this month?
no. The time for parade is usually the national day, Oct 1st., and every five years. Next one should be 2024.
@@xsu-is7vq ahh every 5 years, ok that’s makes sense now. Bummer, I wanted to fawn over new kit. Thanks for the reply.
@@shmeckle666 there's also the Zhuhai international aviation and aerospace exhibition, scheduled for Nov 8, this year. It's more than just aviation stuff, Army and navy weapons and system would also be displayed there.
@@xsu-is7vq hmm was not aware, I’ll have to remember the date and check that out. Thanks again for the info
This topic needs to be revisited now that the US Military is moving back to Division Templates.
This channel is such a gem. Thank you for such amazing content.
Battle Order, could you do a video about modern Serbian infantry squads?
I'm struggling to find good resources on their organisation and armaments
PLA artillery has been expanded after most of the earlier fights the PLA got itself in was against a foe with better artillery starting from the very beginning
Naturally they know how it sucks to not have artillery and would like the situation to be reversed next time they go into combat
Missiles are most important. Cheap Easy Mass Production. A Carrier Cost 10 Billion Dollars. 10 Years to build. Missiles sink 10 Billion Carriers in Minutes.
This video is so comprehensive!
The biggest and maybe decisive advantage of chinese artillery with US army is its lang range rocket launchers. The new type 191 has a range more than 300km (only rockets, not its missil), with precision guidance and lots of warheads, including anti-tank, anti-radar, drones, ground penetration,anti-ships and even anti-submarine version. In the most proverbially confrontation scen between two ground force, the Taiwan Straight, PLA artillery can early cover all TW island, while US MRLS can not. It's very hard for US troops to do anything under the enemy intensive fire artillery fire power.
🇷🇺 is a great example of numbers, the 🇨🇳 lack battlefield experience lately. Fighting doctrine is also an issue🇨🇳 use of mass formation as in expendable - that is a major fault. A dead army cannot win you a war. We don't even know if the 🇨🇳 munitions work as advertised. The 🇨🇳 get in their own way. Look at their history. And the corruption that undermines moral.
@@dancemunkiThe United States has experience fighting Afghan farmers, and was defeated by Russia and Iran in Syria. When China and the United States are at war, the battlefield is not Taiwan, but Alaska and Canada.
Hello communist. Your entire comment is wrong. First, the Iraqi army was a large and well equipped military which we defeated in open warfare twice. The Iraqis were also using Russian equipment which large portions of Chinese military equipment is derived or copied from to this day. Also, would you like to discuss how well the CCP did when they invaded Vietnam after the US left? Second, the nearest thing to fighting Russians the US has done is when we killed or wounded 300 Russian trained/equipped mercenaries in Syria. The US did not fight Russia or Iran directly in Syria. You are lying. We fought numerous Iranian backed militias but never Iran directly. We fought Iran directly in 1988 and destroyed their entire navy. Finally, please show me the Chinese vessels capable of transporting an invasion force across the Pacific Ocean at all, much less under the threat of the US Navy. The Chinese will be lucky to make it to Taiwan at all much less Alaska. @@bingshao-cp5wk
Sources:
books.google.com/books?id=AeuLEAAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ViewAPI#v=onepage&q&f=false
www.reuters.com/article/us-mideast-crisis-syria-russia-casualtie-idUSKCN1FZ2DZ
www.google.com/books/edition/Iranian_Naval_Forces_A_Tale_of_Two_Navie/ZHfoAwBhkFgC?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=inauthor:"Office+of+Naval+Intelligence+(U+S+)"&printsec=frontcover
Great work!
Thanks mate
No GPS for PLA, Beido.
很多時候，我真的希望有外星人存在，尤其是那些侵略地球的外星人。我真的希望看到人類團結起來會爆發多麼強大的力量，而不是整日活在猜疑，嫉妒和算計中
你想多了。外星人跨星际侵略地球的话，我们和当时美洲原住民的下场没什么区别。我们的武器代差升至比那个时候还大。
吃过旅级编制的420毫米火箭弹吗？
Tell me this does the PLA battle tested?
Super rapport
Great video Brendan : D