The thing that always gets me is Reek being mentioned. There are only so many possibilities on who it could be because not many pertinent characters know about Reek
If you read the theons winds sample in dance and the pink letter, he says to stannis or possiby asha "he will want his bride back, and his reek." and thats also the pink letters last line (might not be the last)
@@illCMAC it also strikes me the way he emphasizes the word "bastard" and declares himself the rightful heir to winterfell. This feels like exactly the kind of provocation theon would lob at jon based on their shared history
I think people overlook the seal itself, and how Ramsey/the Boltons in general seal their letters. Lemme explain: - ADWD, The Wayward Bride: "It was tightly rolled and sealed with a button of hard pink wax." - ADWD, Jon VI: "It was tightly rolled and sealed, with a button of hard pink wax." - ADWD, Jon XIII (the chapter with the Pink Letter): "And the letter was sealed with a smear of hard pink wax." There are some other mentions of the pink wax, but those are the three that are an actual "unsealed" letter. The first two specify a button of wax, which would be what one would normally do. Button of wax, pressed with a seal stamp. The Pink Letter, though? It's specifically a SMEAR of hard pink wax. Implying whoever sealed it didn't have access to the stamp, or that it was sealed differently from normal. Also, the first two usages explicitly state it was TIGHTLY sealed. The Pink Letter does not. So either the letter was tampered with (such as by a conspirator in the Night's Watch who wanted Jon to freak and break his vows to use as justification for shanking. Which happens *immediately after*) or something else caused the letter to be sealed *differently than normal*. Aka someone having access to the wax, but not the proper stamp or sealing method, such as Able or Theon/Reek or maybe even Manderly or something. EDIT To clarify, I personally think it was written by Ramsey and then tampered with by someone at the Wall, or that it was written by someone *specifically* at Winterfell that might have had access to the wax but not the proper seal, such as Mance or Theon pre-escape, Manderly pre or post escape, or Theon at Stannis' camp at Stannis' demand using remnants of pink sealing wax from other letters, remelted and then smeared to seal it.
I think Ramsay sent a letter, but the pink letter is a revised and resealed (with the same wax) version of that letter; rewritten by someone else, probably Clydas at the behest of Bowen Marsh
I don't think Stannis is the type to write that sort of letter-my goat would never. Honestly, I think the most obvious answer here is the correct one: it's probably Ramsay. Though it being from Wyman Manderly is also an interesting twist. Wyman needs a Stark to remove the Boltons from the North; maybe he's afraid Davos might fail and is using Jon as a failsafe. Also, am I misremembering, or was the letter different in the show?
You forgot Clydas himself (under orders from Bowen Marsh). 1. He was very nervous when he gave the letter. 2. He and Bowen Marsh were actively plotting against Jon and had the most to gain to get Jon killed. 3. They knew the comings and goings at the wall and have access to the information needed to write the letter.
@@db7213 verrrryyy good point! How would the folk at the wall imitate a Bolton wax seal though? Plotting for a long time and making their own? It makes me lean towards it not being them
@@illCMAC Ramsay (or someone else in Winterfell) probably sent A letter (either to Jon or someone else at the wall) where he talked about various stuff. And then Clydas/Bowen intercepted that letter to create one that would infuriate Jon. It should also be noted that Clydas/Bowen are working for the Lannisters, and so is Roose Bolton, i.e. they are allies. Roose btw doesn't like Ramsay very much, and might even have given them permission (and the necessary tools) to impersonate him so he can be the fall guy.
@db7213 So why would they need to rewrite the letter if it already contains information that would make Jon break his Vows? I feel like you're arguing against yourself.
I think it's Ramsi and part of the letter are true, parts not. I bet he captured the spear wives, at least some of them alive, it is not very difficult after that to get to Mance. Mance can tell him many things about the wall. I cannot imagine Mance giving away, even under torture, his own sin, but if Ramsi goes torturing the women he may decide to talk, as he is pretty tough himself, but not a cruel person, will he endure their torture in front of his eyes? I do not believe it is Stanis. If he needs people he could command, thinking they ow him allegiance, but hiding behind Ramsi of all people - no, not his style. Manderly - too far fetched. Why will they even tell him about Mance? They are not right now at very friendly terms. Could it be Clydas (and the others), in order to provoke him into abandoning his post and having a reason to kill him - where will they get all that information? I bet it is Ramsi, but there was no battle yet, he is lying about that. He did not send one of his "presents", as he was in a hurry. It could be a letter written under his father dictation, aimed at provoking action and thus hoping to unite the now fighting northern fractions. After all they will see it as a big threat to themselves - the Nights watch is not supposed to take part in the fights of the kingdom and loose wildlings on their territory.
Stannis wasn't encouraging Jon to break his vows. Stannis is king and he could release him from his vows without any breaking. Maybe a technicality for us, but for Stannis it would matter a great deal and be completely different.
Btw Time traveling Tyrion is in canon just not in asoiaf In George's "Under Siege", Tyrion consciousness time travels into the past to prevent nuclear war
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@lucasacosta2104 not necessarily. I don't think Theon was present while Ramsey wrote those other letters. Theon knows how Ramsey talks and what he wants, Stannis knows about the wildling princess.
I think it might be melissandre, tryint to provoke jon into joining stannis to retake winterfell. It would also be incredibly ironic and on brand for melissandre to manipulate events only for it to completely backfire yet again. She is one of the only people to know about the king beyond the wall not being burned, and the references to the wildlings are surprisingly courteous, as if the person is not westerosi and has no lingering animosity in their words. Being around wildlings, she would hear the term “black crows” only used by free folk. But “wildling princess” is also used, none of the wildlings consider val a princess, she has no power or status without mance rayder being an honorary king and considering her family. So it seems to be someone close to wildlings but not a wildling, who knows Jon well enough to know this will instigate some action and make him go to winterfell. The wax is also smeared with no seal so its almost definitely an impersinator trying to instigate Jon.
I've always believed that Ramsey did write the letter but then Marsh and his conspiraters tampered with it. The are the ones who gain the most from it and know Jon and the situation at the wall and with Stannis.
I think you misunderstood the question of the wax. The observation is not that the wax is "wrong", it's that it's a "smear" of wax. The wax doesn't have the Bolton seal stamped into it, that the issue. We would expect it to be properly sealed if Ramsey sent it to prove it's him. The lack of stamp in the seal suggests one of two things. Either the letter was sent by someone with access to everything but the seal from Winterfell. Or, that there was originally a different letter and the wax was scraped off and remelted to seal either a second letter or a revised letter. If it's an original with a smear it was sent from someone who only had access to pink wax. This could probably be any castle. If it's a revised letter then it contains information available from the first with information someone else had available. It's a smear rather than a blob of wax which suggests the latter. A small amount of wax suggests whoever sealed it had less wax than would typically be used. Clyd's fear before the letter is opened suggests foreknowledge of it's contents. This could suggest that he and Marsh opened the letter first and simply resealed it loosing the Bolton seal, without altering the text. It does not however preclude the possibility that Marsh crafted a second letter and repuposed the wax. The fear in the messager proves knowledge of the contents only. It could still have been written by someone like Stannis and sent without a seal originally. Marsh may simply have been reading Jon's mail first and prepared for the possibility Jon betrayed his vows. But could also have rewritten it to upset Jon to the point he would
The Watch doesn’t get involved in the politics of the 7 Kingdoms, that’s true. However, when a Lord publicly threatens the life of the Lord Commander, it’s not interfering with the politics of the 7 Kingdoms rather it’s taking on a threat to the people who guard the realms of men. Also, considering the current warden of the north is Roose Bolton, the father of the man threatening the Lord Commander of the NW and the King on the Iron Throne supports Roose, Handling the situation politically isn’t really an option.
Last suspects. Sansa or Peter. Vale Raven with info from spies in stannis camp and bolton camp. Chaos is a ladder or reclaim the north anyway you can. Or even Jenye? Bolton wife has insider info so sends letter in the hopes of rescue party from last Stark. Maybe. Or bolton's Asha playing her own game.
That last line just doesn't read true. Why would he say "Your Bastard's Heart"? If he was talking to Jon, surely it would be "Your Bastard Heart"? Implying he is actually threatening to cut out the heart of the intended recipients bastard child, not the recipient themselves.
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The thing that always gets me is Reek being mentioned. There are only so many possibilities on who it could be because not many pertinent characters know about Reek
Yeah makes it much more likely Theon wrote it in my opinion.
If you read the theons winds sample in dance and the pink letter, he says to stannis or possiby asha "he will want his bride back, and his reek." and thats also the pink letters last line (might not be the last)
@@illCMAC it also strikes me the way he emphasizes the word "bastard" and declares himself the rightful heir to winterfell. This feels like exactly the kind of provocation theon would lob at jon based on their shared history
Next suspect: Dolorous Edd. That was great.
I think people overlook the seal itself, and how Ramsey/the Boltons in general seal their letters. Lemme explain:
- ADWD, The Wayward Bride: "It was tightly rolled and sealed with a button of hard pink wax."
- ADWD, Jon VI: "It was tightly rolled and sealed, with a button of hard pink wax."
- ADWD, Jon XIII (the chapter with the Pink Letter): "And the letter was sealed with a smear of hard pink wax."
There are some other mentions of the pink wax, but those are the three that are an actual "unsealed" letter. The first two specify a button of wax, which would be what one would normally do. Button of wax, pressed with a seal stamp. The Pink Letter, though? It's specifically a SMEAR of hard pink wax. Implying whoever sealed it didn't have access to the stamp, or that it was sealed differently from normal. Also, the first two usages explicitly state it was TIGHTLY sealed. The Pink Letter does not. So either the letter was tampered with (such as by a conspirator in the Night's Watch who wanted Jon to freak and break his vows to use as justification for shanking. Which happens *immediately after*) or something else caused the letter to be sealed *differently than normal*. Aka someone having access to the wax, but not the proper stamp or sealing method, such as Able or Theon/Reek or maybe even Manderly or something.
EDIT
To clarify, I personally think it was written by Ramsey and then tampered with by someone at the Wall, or that it was written by someone *specifically* at Winterfell that might have had access to the wax but not the proper seal, such as Mance or Theon pre-escape, Manderly pre or post escape, or Theon at Stannis' camp at Stannis' demand using remnants of pink sealing wax from other letters, remelted and then smeared to seal it.
I think the smeared seal is an indication that the writer was in a hurry. I'm starting to feel confident it's not Ramsay who authored it
Theon at Stannis' camp reusing the wax seems the most likely to me
Source: vibes
I think Ramsay sent a letter, but the pink letter is a revised and resealed (with the same wax) version of that letter; rewritten by someone else, probably Clydas at the behest of Bowen Marsh
Totally! Otherwise why would Clydas be acting as he was..
I don't think Stannis is the type to write that sort of letter-my goat would never. Honestly, I think the most obvious answer here is the correct one: it's probably Ramsay. Though it being from Wyman Manderly is also an interesting twist. Wyman needs a Stark to remove the Boltons from the North; maybe he's afraid Davos might fail and is using Jon as a failsafe.
Also, am I misremembering, or was the letter different in the show?
@@Stxrk I suppose the show wouldn't have mentioned the wildling princess because Val wasn't featured but I'm unsure on the rest... hmmm...
You forgot Clydas himself (under orders from Bowen Marsh).
1. He was very nervous when he gave the letter.
2. He and Bowen Marsh were actively plotting against Jon and had the most to gain to get Jon killed.
3. They knew the comings and goings at the wall and have access to the information needed to write the letter.
Yeah, I've always believed a real letter was sent that was manipulated by the walls conspirators
@@db7213 verrrryyy good point!
How would the folk at the wall imitate a Bolton wax seal though? Plotting for a long time and making their own? It makes me lean towards it not being them
Bowen didn't know about the Mance plan with the washerwomen, and how would Marsh know about Ramsay and Reek at all?
@@illCMAC Ramsay (or someone else in Winterfell) probably sent A letter (either to Jon or someone else at the wall) where he talked about various stuff. And then Clydas/Bowen intercepted that letter to create one that would infuriate Jon.
It should also be noted that Clydas/Bowen are working for the Lannisters, and so is Roose Bolton, i.e. they are allies. Roose btw doesn't like Ramsay very much, and might even have given them permission (and the necessary tools) to impersonate him so he can be the fall guy.
@db7213 So why would they need to rewrite the letter if it already contains information that would make Jon break his Vows? I feel like you're arguing against yourself.
I think it's Ramsi and part of the letter are true, parts not. I bet he captured the spear wives, at least some of them alive, it is not very difficult after that to get to Mance. Mance can tell him many things about the wall. I cannot imagine Mance giving away, even under torture, his own sin, but if Ramsi goes torturing the women he may decide to talk, as he is pretty tough himself, but not a cruel person, will he endure their torture in front of his eyes?
I do not believe it is Stanis. If he needs people he could command, thinking they ow him allegiance, but hiding behind Ramsi of all people - no, not his style.
Manderly - too far fetched. Why will they even tell him about Mance? They are not right now at very friendly terms.
Could it be Clydas (and the others), in order to provoke him into abandoning his post and having a reason to kill him - where will they get all that information?
I bet it is Ramsi, but there was no battle yet, he is lying about that. He did not send one of his "presents", as he was in a hurry. It could be a letter written under his father dictation, aimed at provoking action and thus hoping to unite the now fighting northern fractions. After all they will see it as a big threat to themselves - the Nights watch is not supposed to take part in the fights of the kingdom and loose wildlings on their territory.
Stannis wasn't encouraging Jon to break his vows. Stannis is king and he could release him from his vows without any breaking. Maybe a technicality for us, but for Stannis it would matter a great deal and be completely different.
Btw Time traveling Tyrion is in canon just not in asoiaf
In George's "Under Siege", Tyrion consciousness time travels into the past to prevent nuclear war
Oh and he succeeds by merging with another man's consciousness
Bruh what? I need to look into this
All of George's science fiction stories have elements that are in asoiaf and sometimes characters with the same name
Also elden ring
Just found this channel really hope to see you keep posting. I’ve enjoyed all your videos so far and I always find it cool to find New ASOIAF RUclipsrs. ❤️
1:53 It would've been true, if that bear didn't bite half of it off.
@@theprimo100 😂
Stannis and Theon wrote the pink letter together, while Theon is hanging on the wall.
Wouldn't Theon know that Ramsay put skin pieces on his letters?
@lucasacosta2104 not necessarily. I don't think Theon was present while Ramsey wrote those other letters. Theon knows how Ramsey talks and what he wants, Stannis knows about the wildling princess.
It's Bloodraven's fault.
Everything is his fault😄
We don’t know for certain who wrote The Pink Letter but it’s obvious who wore The Pink Jumper
Ramsay always sends a piece of skin in his letters, so the Pink Letter was written by someone else
I think it might be melissandre, tryint to provoke jon into joining stannis to retake winterfell. It would also be incredibly ironic and on brand for melissandre to manipulate events only for it to completely backfire yet again. She is one of the only people to know about the king beyond the wall not being burned, and the references to the wildlings are surprisingly courteous, as if the person is not westerosi and has no lingering animosity in their words. Being around wildlings, she would hear the term “black crows” only used by free folk. But “wildling princess” is also used, none of the wildlings consider val a princess, she has no power or status without mance rayder being an honorary king and considering her family. So it seems to be someone close to wildlings but not a wildling, who knows Jon well enough to know this will instigate some action and make him go to winterfell. The wax is also smeared with no seal so its almost definitely an impersinator trying to instigate Jon.
I've always believed that Ramsey did write the letter but then Marsh and his conspiraters tampered with it. The are the ones who gain the most from it and know Jon and the situation at the wall and with Stannis.
I think you misunderstood the question of the wax. The observation is not that the wax is "wrong", it's that it's a "smear" of wax. The wax doesn't have the Bolton seal stamped into it, that the issue. We would expect it to be properly sealed if Ramsey sent it to prove it's him.
The lack of stamp in the seal suggests one of two things. Either the letter was sent by someone with access to everything but the seal from Winterfell. Or, that there was originally a different letter and the wax was scraped off and remelted to seal either a second letter or a revised letter.
If it's an original with a smear it was sent from someone who only had access to pink wax. This could probably be any castle. If it's a revised letter then it contains information available from the first with information someone else had available. It's a smear rather than a blob of wax which suggests the latter. A small amount of wax suggests whoever sealed it had less wax than would typically be used.
Clyd's fear before the letter is opened suggests foreknowledge of it's contents. This could suggest that he and Marsh opened the letter first and simply resealed it loosing the Bolton seal, without altering the text. It does not however preclude the possibility that Marsh crafted a second letter and repuposed the wax. The fear in the messager proves knowledge of the contents only. It could still have been written by someone like Stannis and sent without a seal originally. Marsh may simply have been reading Jon's mail first and prepared for the possibility Jon betrayed his vows. But could also have rewritten it to upset Jon to the point he would
The wax issue with this letter is way it was applied. Messy, instead of tidy.
The Watch doesn’t get involved in the politics of the 7 Kingdoms, that’s true. However, when a Lord publicly threatens the life of the Lord Commander, it’s not interfering with the politics of the 7 Kingdoms rather it’s taking on a threat to the people who guard the realms of men.
Also, considering the current warden of the north is Roose Bolton, the father of the man threatening the Lord Commander of the NW and the King on the Iron Throne supports Roose, Handling the situation politically isn’t really an option.
Last suspects. Sansa or Peter.
Vale Raven with info from spies in stannis camp and bolton camp. Chaos is a ladder or reclaim the north anyway you can.
Or even Jenye? Bolton wife has insider info so sends letter in the hopes of rescue party from last Stark. Maybe. Or bolton's Asha playing her own game.
Every other line is someone else? Was Stannis wife getting the letter first? Or Melisandra?
It's probably written by Theon Greyjoy in service of Stannis.
Why did Clydas look shaken?
That last line just doesn't read true. Why would he say "Your Bastard's Heart"? If he was talking to Jon, surely it would be "Your Bastard Heart"? Implying he is actually threatening to cut out the heart of the intended recipients bastard child, not the recipient themselves.