Christian Nationalism vs. Mere Christendom? | Doug Wilson & Stephen Wolfe
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- Опубликовано: 23 окт 2022
- Doug Wilson and Stephen Wolfe discuss Wolfe's new book "The Case for Christian Nationalism" and how the idea of Christian Nationalism compares and contrasts with Pastor Wilson's proposed "Mere Christendom" project.
Preorder 'The Case for Christian Nationalism" today!
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This video is presented by Canon Press.
I'm an Orthodox Jew who grew up in Toronto in the 1950s and 1960s. Canada at that time had a very British flavor to it and was predominantly Protestant religiously and culturally. The world I grew up in was very much the "Christian Nation" that Doug and his guest describe. Everything was closed on Sunday and public decorum was maintained. The city was known as "Toronto the Good." Apart from some very rare instances of mild anti-semitism and a bit of feeling "other," I felt quite comfortable in that environment and felt safe and secure with what I considered a sober and responsible government. My world was well ordered and my family's religous beliefs were respected. As a Jew I would have no problem going back to that kind of atmosphere though I fear things are going to get worse before they get better.
Christ is Lord. Repent or face Hell.
@@sjdhgydhfyrn1023your a bot or fake christian this is not how you share the gospel this is not how the Bible models sharing gospel
Reformed Baptist here. I agree about the trajectory and had a similar experience in the city I live in. The anti-semitism is unacceptable and unchristian. So sorry that happened. Christians believe in classical biblical Judaism and hold that Jesus (Yeshua) is the promised messiah prophesied in the Law and the Prophets. We reject Talmudic Judaism the same reason we reject Roman Catholicism. Both originated well enough but dogmas began to develop around the clearly stated undisputed scripture itself. To the point where the original scripture is no longer followed. Yeshua came when Daniel said he would (Daniel 9) and did what Isaiah said he would do (Entire book of Isaiah namely Isa. 53.).
Thank you for sharing your experience as an Orthodox Jew. It's great to see that your experience so closely related to the Christian Nationalist identity that Doug and Stephen Wolfe are discussing.
I do hope and pray that you find Christ as Messiah, that you trust upon his name alone for salvation!
God bless you, friend.
@@sjdhgydhfyrn1023😂😂😂😂
I don't know if I am the only one who feels this way, but as an Australian, I have a strong loyalty and passion for the whole Anglosphere. If the US was attacked, it would feel right for us to come to your aid (let's pretend we had that capability), I would feel the same with the UK, Canada, and New Zealand too.
We are English-speaking people, we have similar cultures, similar values in many ways, and a shared history. I believe all our Nations belong to Christ and there are people like us in all these places. I love my country. I love my people, my land, and my culture. I grieve over it, and I will fight for it.
I get the feeling though, that in the US, you may feel less connected to us follow Anglosphere nations, then we feel to you.
Are you confusing Christian nations with Commonwealth countries i.e. countries that Great Britain colonised?
I don’t know if “less connected” is the right term. There is a one sphere removal. For an Aussie, it may be Australia, then Anglosphere. For me, it is Texas, then the US, then the Anglosphere. It could also be that most of the Anglosphere is also united under the king (weird not to say queen) and we are not.
The shared loyalty is there for most of us. I remember meeting some Englishmen on a train in Belgium a few weeks after 9/11. There was a shared hurt and outrage that I appreciated.
We all share a common theological and cultural heritage. We all share Samuel Rutherford, and both his intellectual forebears and intellectual progeny. We share John Knox and John Owen. Our forebears shared the same island, common law, and human rights ideations, and principles. And we share Wycliffe, and King James, and English Bible, and ideas of public governance. To claim a nation for Christ and demonstrate in history that a nation is actually being discipled as a Christian nation (make disciples of all nations) is something that has been done before. The Westminster Standards were likely the culmination of that effort.
But there is a distinction between the Babylon worldly system and the Kingdom of Heaven, and the good news is that Jesus has all authority in Heaven and Earth. And we still have to go back and make disciples of all nations. How do we do that? Well, we do it like we've done it before. One nation at a time. Or, maybe two at a time. There's nothing stopping Australians from doing the same thing in your continent. Resist the devil, and he'll flee. Every. Single. Time. It's a promise. Do we still believe that promise? I think we can all appreciate the line "Britons never, never, never shall be slaves," right? Jesus said that anyone He sets free from sin and death is free indeed. And it was Hugh Latimer that said, “Be of good comfort, Master Ridley, and play the man. We shall this day light such a candle by God’s grace in England as I trust shall never be put out.” That is our shared history.
@@aallen5256 What is a “Christian nation”? Isn’t any country with a predominantly Christian population who identifies with their Christianity a “Christian nation”, and if so, I don’t see how Australia is any different than America in this regard.
No,you're not the only one. I'm English and feel the same way
As a "fresh off the boat" immigrant (from a non-english speaking nation) the acid test I've asked myself as well as other immigrants is the following: now that I've been accepted by this host family (the American people), would I be willing to fight to defend America even against my own country of birth? If the answer is no, then all I deserve is a green card (a conditional right to stay in the US and no right to vote). If I answer yes, then this type of loyalty deserves the US citizenship. Becoming American (or German, or Italian) is a privilege, not a right. Assimilation (consciously rejecting some old ways of life and incorporating new ones) is crucial to keep a national cohesion. This process is primarily done thru language ( a bumper sticker I saw when I first moved here rightly said "welcome to America, now speak English"). "Open border policy" is a tool of destabilization along with multiculturalism, the strange notion that all cultures are equally valid. If it were so ( that my culture of origin is as good as the American one), like millions, I would not have left my place of birth.
Ex-European citizen by birth, now proud (American) Christian Nationalist by choice.
Loving your nation to the point of death is simply not enough. That is nationalism but not Christian nationalism. A Christian nationalist ought to be willing to die for his country but MORE willing to die for Christ.
Well said. And welcome!
Great point. With liberty comes responsibility.
Talk is cheap , serving is righteous.
very based
Just give us back our legal right to discriminate. No longer disarmed in the public square, we can fight nonviolently.
You have neither the lexicon nor dialectics to do battle in the public square without the Go Free stratagem. Unless you learn from the book: GO Free: A Guide To Aligning With The Archetype Of Westernkind by Jason Kohne.
Americans have been cut off from their Christian heritage. We sit in our pews on Sunday, without realizing that Christian men shed their blood to see that a self governed nation could one day exist. And we’re giving it away.
Preorder 'The Case for Christian Nationalism" today!
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28:22
“Providence has given to our people the choice of their ruler, and it is the duty, as well as the privilege and interest of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers.”
- John Jay, First Chief Justice of the US Supreme Court.
Listen, our current politicians for the most part love the devil, their deeds show that. I ain't voting for the children of the devil anymore, no matter what comes out of their mouths.
What
Is a Christian?
@@matrixlone
There are a variety of context-dependent usages.
My casual rendering would be, roughly speaking, one who believes and holds allegiance to the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth (and consequently also of his inspired disciples).
C.S. Lewis also had an interesting exploration of the subject in his book ‘Mere Christianity’.
As for the time of the founding and the quote I relayed, most state constitutions were a bit more specific in the qualifications for office holders and specified a denomination, but later opened up incrementally; if I recall correctly, I believe the phase merely requiring they be ‘Christian’ said something like ‘profess belief in the Holy Trinity, the divinity of Christ, and the inspiration of the Holy Scriptures’ (the Bible).
@@matrixlone
“What is a Christian?”
Great question to ask. 👍🏼
Now, if only some pastors hadn’t taught us to stay out of politics.
"In a Civilisation where nothing is sacred, everything is up for mockery" - Me.
The inverse of that is “ if everything is exceptional, then nothing is exceptional “. And that’s me agreeing with you. Part of the issue is atheists self worship , where they declare themselves the highest order of knowledge in their own sphere , and part of the pathway to this is the idea as kids are taught that Everyone is exceptional , and to teach this , you have to tamp down the truly exceptional in order to sell the lie.
@@puttervids472 well said.
@@puttervids472 that's just atheists in a nutshell. That's a very broad view and putting all atheists in the same box. The problem is believers in God tend to treat atheists as if they are a stereotype. There are alot of shades of gray in atheism. Not all atheists believe they are their own higher power. I used to be an atheist and I never thought that. I simply didn't believe in God. Didn't believe in a higher power. Because I didn't know one personally and I wasn't going to give blind faith to any deity that people believed in simply because I was told I had too or I would burn for not. Even to this day , I will not tell anyone whether or not there is a God, or where you go or don't go when you die. All I know is there are countless deities that man has believed to be real through the ages that predate Judaism, Christianity and Islam. Why should I believe all of them are fake or demons and the God of the Bible is the one real God. Because a book says so ? Because a bunch of scholars say so ? The exact same was said about the Egyptian gods, the norse gods, the Roman God's, the Greek gods and the sumerian gods , which is where the father of the entire Jewish nation Abraham was from. What makes the God of the Bible any different than all the other stories that people believed wholeheartedly in and claimed to feel their God around them. Everyone is so quick to burn on atheists , when in reality. Atheism at its core is nothing more than a non believer.
@@allantalley9669 appreciate the post. But I’ll say. You’re not atheist. Or your atheist in name only. What you are is someone who doesn’t trust man. I am that person too. I don’t follow closely ALL of man’s traditions. I believe Catholics Take a lot of responsibility for this. I’m not down on Catholic people. But the anoint of Pomp and circumstance in that denomination is really too much for me. It screams man made. But friend. That doesn’t mean god doesn’t exist.
You said you don’t know god. Fair enough. I’m opposite. I speak with the creator Daily. If your mind is truly open. Try this , not for me , for you. Just talk to god. Say “ father I don’t know you. If you’re there I’d like to. Can you please show me . Show yourself to me in some way that I’ll know. “. Something as simple as that. Say it with sincerity. See if you don’t get some contact. This won’t mean you need to jump out and follow man. Talk with the father and the path will be shown to you in time. It’s not a fast race. It’s daily , until. We’re all flawed. But we all have this birthright. If we get to wherever we go and I find out that gods name is Joshua. Or Jim. It will not make one difference to me. It’s the relationship and guidance that matters.
Man’s religious requirements have probably created as many atheists as believers. But , there are occasionally great churches. Just very hard to find one local to you. I prefer to study and learn on my own at my own pace. I don’t believe in anyway that I’m less believe than those who follow a pastor daily. I’m here right now inviting you to see for yourself. There truly can’t be any pressure less than a private meditation that you control. Hope that makes sense. I’m not a great communicator
Thank you!
Conclusion: NC is an abstract and difficult to define concept that allows you to exclude anyone you want, denying the inherent universality of true Christianity.
Did you watch the video?
The vast majority of Christian nationalists I have talked to, are either Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox. I am LCMS
Based
Part of the nation's "common experience" is family relation. The root word of nation means birth, no? People don't fight to defend random conglomerations of individuals. We are trying to put a modernist take on the word "nation" when we try to separate the two. God created the nations and appointed their times and places. The US in its infancy imported peoples based upon their general ethnic and religious compatibility, knowing numbers were needed to dominate the territorial claim. As that has changed, we see how we're now a polyglot of people, debased in our faith, who have very little affinity for one another.
Yeah, but race and ethnicity are an identifier of ideology, culture, and or geography. We need unity, not diversity, but we can't ever achieve total unity. That's why trying to have a united culture rather than a united race because it is more achievable.
@@JC-pi9em Just need to be careful
to remember that Christianity is a reconciliation of God and man, and not a utopian ideology. Folks who expect we will create a unified world of interchangeable Christians, before Christ’s return, are like those who would say “true communism has never been tried”. We should understand and respect the boundaries that man operates with while the world remains under the curse of sin. God created the nations, their times and boundaries. I do not see an undoing of this natural order by Christ, only an offer of salvation available to all the nations, and a hope that those nations who accept him would cooperate more civilly with one another and glorify Him. Need to be careful we’re not trying to completely redefine what it means to be a nation; but just trying to redeem and sanctify it with Christ.
@@brianh1161 I'm almost totally lower Saxon; my future wife is half Anglo/half Han and here I am agreeing fully with this very based Brian gentleman lol.
I agree that it is vital for nations of men to stay diverse (and by that, I mean actually diverse, and not "mulatto", like when most people use the word). There will always be a small and natural level of "race-mixing", and I see no biblical evidence that such is wrong, if it is truly out of love. However, subliminally brainwashing entire races of people to breed away is heinous and terrifying. It's essentially a *"soft"* genocide.
Nationalism is a Liberal and modern invention
@@JC-pi9em I'm not going to stand for the physical destruction of my people ethnically because it's doable and more socially acceptable. The destruction of ethnically European people is a pretty well stated goal of the Globalists. Saying that will mean young White men who inevitably will have to stand for their people due to these foreign invasions will never darken the doors of these churches. The Bible well backs up standing up for our people.
I'm Puerto Rican and I totally agree. Puerto Rico will never be a state and it never should. We are a different country with our own history, culture, and Spanish is mostly spoken. We are a Latin American island nation.
How are blasphemy laws different than laws against “hate speech”? If we’re against laws banning hate speech should we not also be against laws banning hate speech against God? It seems like the answer isn’t to make it illegal but to raise a people who is offended enough to speak publicly and privately against it.
Your quote from RL Dabney is part of his argument against the civil government getting involved in education.
hi Dug hope you are well. good to see you
Psalm 2:1-12 NASB95 - Why are the nations in an uproar And the peoples devising a vain thing? The kings of the earth take their stand And the rulers take counsel together Against the LORD and against His Anointed, saying, “Let us tear their fetters apart And cast away their cords from us!” He who sits in the heavens laughs, The Lord scoffs at them. Then He will speak to them in His anger And terrify them in His fury, saying, “But as for Me, I have installed My King Upon Zion, My holy mountain.” “I will surely tell of the decree of the LORD: He said to Me, ‘You are My Son, Today I have begotten You. ‘Ask of Me, and I will surely give the nations as Your inheritance, And the very ends of the earth as Your possession. ‘You shall break them with a rod of iron, You shall shatter them like earthenware.’” Now therefore, O kings, show discernment; Take warning, O judges of the earth. Worship the LORD with reverence And rejoice with trembling. Do homage to the Son, that He not become angry, and you perish in the way, For His wrath may soon be kindled. How blessed are all who take refuge in Him!
21:24 the Guadalcanal metaphor really falls apart if the other guy’s great grandfather was Japanese. This is a bad idea and they can’t come up with good examples of it as a result.
I thought the same thing!
This guy and most everyone posting on this thread have learned absolutely NOTHING over the last 120 years! Total amateur hour! Go and watch the latest remake of "All Quiet on the Western Front" regarding a war between so called "Christian Nations" and try to learn something. If these people are going to call themselves "Christians", they should at least know their own Scripture! Malachi 4:1 is upon all of you! You are ALL going to die in WW III by your own hand with the 7,000 "Flying Nails" you have Built to "Crucify" yourselves"! The only real Americans, are Native Americans. Everyone else is here as a guest. This guy and the host are both total Johnny-One-Note blowhards.
Robert Lewis Dabney (March 5, 1820 - January 3, 1898) was an American Christian theologian, Southern Presbyterian pastor, Confederate States Army chaplain, and architect. He was also chief of staff and biographer to Stonewall Jackson. His biography of Jackson remains in print today.
Hi Reconstructionalists, genuine question: If separation of church & state is a biblical doctrine (DW claimed this in his 2nd debate with Dan Barker) how do we reconcile that with CN?
Separation of their institutions, not their morals. Both are ruled by the Bible. The church advises and reproves (but does not control) the state; the state guards and defends (but does not control) the church.
Not sure if I'm a 'Reconstructionalist'. Maybe a 'reconstructionist', though I dunno.
@@robertlewis6915 Great response! He's being a punk about reconstructionism. He knows right well that Doug is not a reconstructionist.
Doug's subtle deadlift flex in the corner
The term "Christian" should never be used as an adjective. It would be better to say nationalist Christian rather than Christian nationalist. There is nothing wrong with our Declaration of Independence and Constitution as governing documents. They provide all the nationalism we need (as Lincoln understood it). The problem is the unwillingness of leftists to live up to these ideals.
Lincoln wanted to send all the Africans back home after they were freed.
@@lukebattiston6650 Yes, so did Madison and many others who opposed slavery. It was the "liberal" view of the day. It was a pipe dream of course because most blacks did not want to go to Africa. America was their home, in spite of the ugly fact of slavery.
Interesting point
Both the Declaration and Constitution are modeled after Locke's Social Contract, which makes the will of the majority the basis for governing authority; i.e. "We the People" They are thus humanistic to the core, with no reference to the governing authority of the Word of God whatsoever. That makes ratification of both of them an act of covenant-breaking rebellion against God that has led to our current desperate state of judgment. The Constitution was/is a dramatic departure from the covenant model found in most of the colonial charters. Until American Christians acknowledge this, America will continue on the path to destruction.
The Civil War, as instigated and orchestrated by Lincoln, was God's initial stroke of judgment on a nation that rejected the rule of Christ in it's founding document. Lincoln was a railroad lobbyist wo provoked the War to implement Henry Clay's "American System" of crony capitalism, a Fed-Type national bank, and massive tax increases.
@@robertdavidson9674 You are incorrect on a number of points. Locke's social contract (SC) does not come about by majority vote. It has to be unanimous, including the laws of the SC. Majority vote only comes about after the SC is ratified; and the majority is held in check by the laws of the SC.
No, the SC is not a covenant in the biblical sense. It is not a covenant with God but a covenant between peoples (or states). The U.S. Constitution is the instrument of government of the social contract, as Madison said. Put aside the Gary North nonsense about the Constitution.
The governing authority of the word of God is operative among the people PRIOR TO the social contract. If people do not agree on basic law and morality -- which was Christian at the time of the Constitution -- they cannot even form a social contract. That is why the SC is breaking down today, because many Americans no longer believe in God or biblical morality.
Lincoln did not start the Civil War.
Two men starting what is inevitable. Wonderful time to be alive
nation is people. country is place. state is governing apparatus. a nation remains a nation regardless of place or government.
Will watch later when I'm done with work stuff. Hopefully, they will explain what the term CN means! I see it all over the place lately. But I can't even formulate a view about it because everyone seems to use their own definition. Can we just pick one and stick with it? It would make things so much easier. Or at least clearer.
Probably not. How many Christian sects are there?
You see it all over the place primarily because it is being used as a term to label and demonize people as bad, dangerous, or much worse. There is too much power in keeping the meaning fuzzy for those who hate both Christ and the concept of the USA as a nation.
I'm glad people are thinking about thus and encouraging others to do so, as well. I hope their main point is that, as Christians, we are citizens of this country and should bring our Christianity into society (passive and active) and participate in government (don't leave the "dirty work" to others). I think the main thing that is missed (or at least not emphasized enough) is that the foundation for our constitution/nation was the first great awakening (broad-sweeping personal revival), i.e., people committed to following Christ took the lead. Our constitution is not Christian, though it could only be conceived by Christians, and society was Christian because the people were Christians (not because the government mandated it). The best way to Christianize a nation is to evangelize it. A nation is Christian in proportion to how many Christians live there. I wonder if we don't like this because then we would have to get out of our comfort zones (which is why the USA has become less Christian, namely, Christians recoiled when presented with ungodly behavior/ideas instead of engaging them. Thus I am glad Canon Press is at least engaging the culture even if I don't agree with everything they do/the way they do it.
Unfortunately, I don't think that we can Christianize a nation when all of the major social institutions of that nation are blatantly hostile to Christ: academia, the news media, social media, and the government itself. They will be tearing souls away from Christ more quickly than we can we can disciple them. The reason that America, as a nation, was able to see regular powerful revivals for several hundred years is that the social structures referred to above were aggressively influenced by the Christian community. Christian Culture is the "good soil" that produces a 100-fold return. When the enemy controls the culture all that we have is rocky barren soil to throw the seeds of the Gospel upon. We must provide viable alternatives to the Anti-Christian social institutions that currently rule our nation.
@@jeffreybartman8279 this is why I say that it would have to an act of The Lord to bring this about, like the Roman empire/Europe and the founding if the USA.
boom
Whose christian interpretation is used?
@@pop-upprayerwithpapaa8250 interpretation of what?
Streams always flood when it rains. Something. Has to be done about a global majority that wants to take what they want.
So two thought at the 10 min mark:
1) Still no Biblical case for CN mentioned. Odd given how important that would be to a Christian. If it was vital that we participate in CN, you’d think Christ or the Apostles or someone would have at least mentioned it clearly.
2) Stephen is completely redefining the concept of ‘nation’ here. While it may be correct or have shades of correctness in it, in the modern context, it is a concept wholly foreign to the ancient contexts of the Scriptures. This is disturbing precisely because this term is being used at the very root of Theonomic formulae to import meaning (and praxis) into the text of Scripture.
Edit: which they proceed to do at 11:30. That was a masterclass in disguising eisegesis. Wow.
Stephen has decoupled the biblical concept of nation from ethnicity/family/tribe and recoupled it with ‘place’. This is both foreign the the worldview of the authors, but by extension foreign to how God both thinks and wants his creatures to think, about nations when he speaks of them.
Stephen says he’s not defending or promoting nation-states but yet, that’s all they talked about for the first 26 min. Wow.
Helpful comment.
Are you christian pacifist? what is your view?
Eloquently put. In Lehman's terms, Civic Nationalism is still the gate-keep du jour in right wing circles. A Biblical interpretation of Nation is simply not aloud - Disguised eisegesis indeed.
This was very refreshing in the times we’re in.
Lord, fan this divine spark into glowing flame. When faith sleeps, my heart becomes an unclean thing, the fount of every loathsome desire, the cage of unclean lusts all fluttering to escape, the noxious tree of deadly fruit, the open wayside of earthly rates. Lord, awake faith to put forth it’s strength until all heaven fills my soul and all impurity is cast out.
Valley of Vision
The book is great. Even if you don’t agree with the view , you will at least not be so prone to mischaracterize it.
I love this. If we was just Godly and moral nation again and repulsed at wickedness and degeneracy. It would be great!
Any Chance we can get Doug Wilson or a capable surrogate to debate Jay Dyer? I'd like to see holy Tradition vs. Sola Scriptura
So it seems we may need to have Stephen back on to clear some pivotal issues up because ...... well...... I think we all saw what happened on Twitter
As much as he can say "oh I was just talking about demographic percentage" or whatever, he's not stupid. He knew that tweet wouldn't go well. There's really no point in purposely saying true things in the most inflammatory way possible other than to bring attention to yourself
they wanted nations to be separate, but the gospel was supposed to be the exact opposite of the Tower of Babel . . . so the gospel if anything is anti-nation. It topples nations and replaces them with the Christian kingdom which doesn't have boundaries.
They lost me when they said that the grace and the gospel can’t restore and reconcile differences between people. I’m pretty sure that’s what the gospels declare. Paul was all for cross-culturing and uniting different cultures and people (Jew/gentile). If you think shutting borders will allow a people to marry and reform identities more than the Holy Spirit through the gospel I think you need to rethink that position.
The MACA Movement is here! Make America Christian Again!
Wolfe makes it clear in the book's introduction that his "political theory" lays the essential natural law foundation for nation-building.
However, God is more than welcome later on to chip in some political theology based on Wolfe's foundation if He would care to do so. What could possibly go wrong with that?
His foundation is pagan humanism...hence this "natural affection" nonsense. It's ANTI Christian and should be condemned.
??? Good ??? Where is it found in governing authorities?
Is "good" found in the ends sought?
Or is "good" found in the means used to pursue those ends?
Where do the moral absurdities creep in?
Did Jesus want us to have “power” as in political? I have lots of questions about this. I appreciate the candor, just can’t see it as a mission that Jesus would endorse per say.
Matt 28:18-20. Jesus’ command was to disciple the _nations_ and teach them (the nations) to obey all His commands.
Matthew 28:18-20 (NASB): 18 And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.
19 “Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,
20 teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”
By force ? Or by love ? John 4 vs22-24…you worship what you do not know ; we know what we worship for salvation is of the Jews..but the hr is coming and now is when the true worshipers will worship the father in spirit and in truth for the father seeks such to worship him .God is spirit and this who worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth …”
@@davidalvarado7186
Of course I would agree with you, it is to be by love. These men are not arguing for it to be by force either.
I would ask you, what is worship? And how does one worship in spirit and in truth?
**edited for clarity**
@@Mel84943
Laws passed by a representative government. If the vast majority of people have turned to Christ because of evangelism a representative government would reflect that also. Ultimately they’re advocating for an evangelized people to intentionally honor God in their legal framework.
Rendure unto Caesar what is Caesar's,...
I'm just wondering why this is blowing up now. I thought the exact same thing years ago, probably even before the Obama administration.
Where was this filmed?
literally my first thought haha
My hunch is that it's in the strip club they bought and are redeeming. I know they've been working on that project... just my hunch.
I was thinking it might be the church they are building. They’ve been working on a building for Christ Church for years.
They probably haven't replied back to you because it's a "green screen".
@@davidfitnesstech No, you're mistaken.
And what happens to Christians who believe the gospel according to Wilson and Wolfe is heresy? What did the "mere Christendom" of Rome do to true Christians? More than 1000 years of Babylon the Great was more than enough.
like oil and water
Does this book go into any detail about the history of education in America before the public school system became the standard? Or if not, does anyone know any good resources on that topic? I know that the public school system didn't always exist as we know it now. But I'm not really sure the specifics of what it did look like for the average person. I'm embarrassed to be 50+ and not know that history.
Check out public school rehab also on canon press
Also look at The Battle For the American Mind
John Taylor Gatto is a great resource on education in America.
blumenfeld.campconstitution.net/Books/NEA-Trojan%20Horse%20In%20American%20Education.pdf
A question/criticism for Stephen, or any Christian nationalists here. On one hand when Stephen talks about Quebec he says it is important for them to maintain some control over their cultures and customs seperate to the larger state of Canada due to their language and cultural differences. I wonder why this cannot also be applied to non-Christian’s within the proposed American Christian nation project. They have their own cultures, customs and beliefs, and by the same logic should be allowed some degree of separation and independence from the Christian customs and laws which Stephen says should be enforced through civil power. I question why people of different religions are not allowed to practice and maintain their customs and govern themselves with respect to culture while the situation with the French in Quebec is seen as not only acceptable but necessary. Time stamp for his commentary on Quebec is around 25:40 for people looking for context
And the mention of civil power being used to enforce Christian practices is just a few minutes later
Fantastic interview!
The problem with any form of collectivism, which certainly includes all forms of nationalism, is that it will always overemphasize the interest of the state to the exclusion of the freedoms of the individual. This would be further exacerbated by a group of people taking over and remaking a state after the people have already been formed in union. It is one thing for a group of people to go buy land and start there own commune with there own laws where everybody agrees. But you can’t possibly do that without people who did not decide on the values of that new state. You will always have dissenters of those values and at that point the state will either decide to protect the values of the collective or the values on the individuals. The previous will always have to restrict the rights of the dissenters who would refuse to follow the collective. I for one, even as a staunch, conservative Christian would oppose any collective and always defend individual freedom even to the point of death!
I think we should look at the biblical definition of a nation instead of saying that a nation is hard to define.
"A common race, tribe, or people"
What they are describing here is a kingdom. A kingdom can be made up of many nations, ethnos, genea, but a nation is defined by its genetics
What would be the percentage of a populace of a Christian nation that are true believers? Actually born again?
Good conversation. But you gotta LOL in how Mr. Wolfe conflate (likely unintentionally) Calvin argument for what I believe in the Privacy of my conscience...and what he openly advocated per Public restrictions (law) and public requirement...being FAR more severe or narrow than what Calvin would allow publicly.
I don't really disagree with Wolfe here, though I would probably argue for it in different ways and emphasize different parts.
The premise that the state should be directing education is flawed
Indoctrination is inevitable
These types of video discussions are my favorite. Similar to Man Rampant.
On a technical note, please cross-shoot your close-ups! Generally, I want to see more of each speaker's face in the close-ups, not less (because it's in profile). Maybe it wasn't possible for some reason, but the cutting to the close-ups felt less-than-meaningful. Also, it took me a long time to realize there was actually a physical object between Wolfe and his camera and not simply light interference. I've been in these small crew setups, so I understand the difficulties, but every little bit of professionalism helps!
Sick of the algorithm! It’s desperately trying to get me into this ideal. I don’t believe in it! I’m a Christian who recognizes that this nation is multi cultural and I firmly believe in the separation of church and state. Talk til your blue in the face, this is not what was intended!! We get to believe how we want and others have those same rights! We are not meant to be a nation built on any one religion at all. Hence, why it’s in the Bill of Rights!
We know we are called to Preach the Gospel to the President and lawmakers. Christian Nationalism is the answer to "what if the Magistrate converts?"
All laws are legistrated morality. Its not a question of "IS morality legistrated?", the question is "WHICH morality will we legislate?".
either it will be the morality or idols or YHWH's morality.
we don't legislate worship. we do legislate morality.
It's not so easy to push Race aside. Race is very deep, it's not skin deep. It encapsulates an entire civilisational history. We can pretend this can be overcome,but reality still says otherwise.
Honest and sincere question: Is this desire to pursue Christian Nationalism by certain sects of Protestantism the same as the pursuit of Dominionism (7 Mountain Mandate, etc) by other Protestant sects?
No, 7 mountains types think they must take dominion in order to usher in Christ’s second coming.
Postmillenials like Doug Wilson believe the Kingdom was planted in the first century with Christ and will continue to grow and fill the whole earth until He comes again. The great commission will be fulfilled and His law will go forth from Zion.
Really disappointed. Wish I had seen this before I bought the book (in transit) I bought the book because I believe Christendom could restore order and the American way but this guy is missing the mark. Both commentators stated that the founders established a christian nation but they are not admitting they are talking about things the founders didn't touch (and didn't touch for a reason) The founders established the country with a biblical interpretation of the nature of man and the role of government and believed that these biblical interpretations would amount to nation of free citizens that had god given rights protected. This freedom combined with protection ultimately places god on the throne (as mystic as that might sound it's true). In this society the founders envisioned, it is risky to not fear God and advantageous to do so. So the author is kind of like a leftist in that he has this utopian vision and he's ready to restrict freedom an use force for. The bible makes a distinction between heaven and earth-earth is not utopia. If the country is derailed it's because a biblical interpretation of the role of government was lost WITHIN CHRISTENDOM. I believe that christians could save the republic if they wake up to who they really are and then do every thing they can to make the case of the gospel. This writer is only going to make that process more difficult to manifest if christians adopt his point of view.
Everybody listening to this is empty without the book Go Free: A Guide To Aligning With The Archetype Of Westernkind by Jason Köhne.
It's the solution Westernkind needa to secure our destiny.
While I like the idea of CN, I wonder how it works with not impeding upon churches of "our common Lord." Nearly every denomination has a different Jesus. For instance, wasn't the American WCF a revision by the PCUSA?
QUESTION 2: Can the approach you take to define a nation be the approach you take to define a woman or a marriage? You seem to define it with intangibles and personal experience. If you can't use the approach you take to define a nation to define what a woman is or what a marriage is then why not? Aren't those who define a woman contrary to what you would say a woman is using the same approach you use to define a nation?
This conversation shows what is lost by "Christian nationalism" the politics overtakes and become far more important than the kingdom and purposes of God.
By this logic pretty much anything but books and conversations about Theology or evangelism can be criticized as taking away from the kingdom and purposes of God. Maybe nothing is lose because this conversation is just about a book about politics, so, unsurprisingly the conversation is mostly about that.
@@jamescook5617 yet the conversation was ment to be about "Christian nationalism" not just politics. Seems like nationalism with a very thin veneer of Christinity. The same criticism couldn't be made about conversations on evangelism or theology because of the great commission means that evangelism is intrinsic to the purposes of God while we are commnaded to know God which is what theology is about. You are right both contain the risk of becoming idols if they draw us away from God himself but the risk is less.
You should read his book. He addresses your issue within the first 5 pages.
@@Charlie5225 life's too short and there are too many books to buy a book and read it when I've already spent time watching the author on video.and he hasn't sold me on his ideas. Maybe you could encapsulate the argument of the first pages of the book if you think it makes a better case than the author manages here.
@@gareth2736 It sounds like you’ve already made up your mind.
Around the 28 minute mark, Dr. Wolfe says he’s not interested in religious neutrality after Wilson questions whether that is even a real concept or perhaps a smokescreen to mask decidedly non-Christian ideologies. I think this idea is a good encapsulation of Wolfe’s overall point. The unfortunate thing is this idea is deeply un-American, as in this actually contradicts majority cultural, historical, and institutional American values. So this sort of nationalism IS possible, but it would cease to be American if implemented according to Wolfe’s vision. Say, a vision for the future of “New America” or “America II”
America was founded on a revolutionary spirit, and democracy was a social experiment to attempt to harness the revolutionary spirit in a way that might reduce it's violence, while also limiting the impacts of despotism and tyranny.
Modern global trade, travel, and algorithmic instant communication were not factored into the social experiment - these things undermine democracy. Democracy was intended to allow the peoples of a nation, of one shared history and culture, to self govern. However, globalism has perverted that governance into something else, and the balance of minute, constant, revolutionary change limiting despotism and tyranny has been turned over.
America already is dead, as the demographics, the culture, and the history have all been radically changed in such a short time and especially by foreign influences. Democracy is already dead, as it is no longer sustainable in the new globalist world order.
We already cease to be American.
We are already in a battle to decide the new identity of our nation, and the order of the world.
We cannot simply live in our own bubble, thinking about our own way of life and ignoring others, as we once did. Those days are gone, whether we like it or not. We are forced to adopt a new level of consciousness now, and use that to interact with and to make conscious decisions about the world around us which moves constantly and rapidly to reach into our space and influence it.
We can choose to say that there is no one truth, but multiple truths that are all valid, no such thing as idealism. We would stand only for pluralism, and say that this space is simply a generic space, and any can freely move throughout it. We would be accepting the tendrils of the world to move through our space, uninhibited by our own judgement and opinion. That would mean Marxism.
Or we can say yes, there is one truth, there is such thing as idealism, and that this space, this nation, is a space for our ideals and what we see as Truth, and that this is a home for people who share those beliefs and belong to our culture. That this nation is our church, and this space is not for the world, but for our God. That other spaces exist for those with other views of truth and other gods. We must declare who the God of our own church is. For the fascists that will be common race or blood. For the Christian Nationalists, that is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
Those are our only three choices for the foreseeable future. The status quo is already dead, and romanticizing it and pretending it is still viable is only a vote to not participate in shaping the future, to let the rest of the world control it for us as they already are. Not even 100 years ago we were all given the opportunity to choose and we made our choice here in the west (the status quo), but tyranny and despotism has grown more and more in correlation with technology and transit, despite the revolutionary nature of democracy, further validating the foundational belief about new world order that the political theories first introduced in the early 1900s were based on.
@@wretchedsoullikemine👍👍
Eh, 2 people who share a rightly ordered highest good (Christ) and the proper application of it to everyday life, WILL be able to participate in a body politic together.
so if you were God and you wanted to bring people to the SAME CONSCIOUSNESS you have (MAN in YOUR image and likeness) would you just say, hey, here is a law: Love me and everyone as yourself. God it??? Sure, we got it: Great, now lets eat!
If you don't see God working all things together for good, even Christianity which is diverse because "knowing God" is not as simple as giving the END RESULT, but taking someone on the journey to get there and this journey comes with so many phases and so much unfolding of the creature who must transform to this "Man" in Gods image and likeness, that every part of it is EXPRESSED in time, hence six days you will labor. For what? For being transformed into my image and likeness and it is the likeness that takes so dang long.
If you have reached the level of "man" resurrected or Adam resurrected, you can see all these sects and denominations as people trying to incorporate all the phases into ONE NEW BEING, and it is impossible without the help of the good root within you, the Messiah within you, rising to bring you into the image and especially likeness of Hashem. I just don't understand how such a 'smart' man as Tovia can't grasp that. The reason however is that the HOLY ANOINTING never rose in him to this day. So he can speak against what he THINKS is the truth, but he can't really ever explain what is the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. No, he is waiting for that too even to this day.
Abraham the father of "many" nations, is the father of Judaism, Christianity and Islam. Jews can deny that all day and Sunday but those who claim him claim him and they claim Judaism as part of their book but in truth, they will have to include Islam who is also Abraham's family: Yet the order was put out there for a reason: God knows the END from the beginning. Jews bear the ROOT of the tree of knowledge (both roots but the good one comes through Judah, the chosen to bring an end to the evil root) which brings Christianity on the scene and Israel is gathered and sanctified with Judah as one again or with the rest of the heart, and then Islam is gathered as the nations to Christianity which is why they write more about Mary and Jesus than Mohammad PBU, God (Hashem) wanted a diverse family and Jews get the part of bringing the Messiah or good root into the world, hence Gods blood, his anointing into the world. If they don't do that, their part is still up in the air, still up for grabs to whosoever will do it and these will be the TRUE Jews:
Just because God means to make Israel eternal and his inheritance, never think that he will just accept anyone as being anointed and joined to him because they are born in a country or into a religion. Think of those who he exiles and those swallowed up when they rebelled against Moses and even today, how many enemies surround Israel and they want to blame the enemies, when Hashem said if they are right with him, he will make their enemies be at peace with them. If they are not right with him, their enemies will become the head and they will become the tail. Deut Song of Moses:
so Jews are the first and bear the root of the tree but the tree of knowledge still works from the evil root (VOID, emptiness) that causes men to hate one another and hating Jews is easier than hating anyone because they go around saying "we are the chosen of God" and you will serve us in the end and cleave to our skirts for all the knowledge and understanding of God: The nations look at the Jews and are simply not impressed. WHY? They are the parents who fight all the time and tell their kids to behave and be right with a God that will never accept them as being chosen like they are. OK? If you are going to be parents you better be the best example and love your kids or expect them to turn against you and find some place else to find the answers for life. God didn't forget about his "people" so he gave them a way to come home again, become part of the head that remains the tail so he can PUSH the parents to finishing their VOW and correct the root and bring the LIGHT of Messiah into the world. So far, the Jews resist the Messiah more than anyone, so what does that show you? Do as we say but don't do as we do:
so here and there he anoints one from the tribe of Judah, house of David, but just like with Saul and David, Israel hates David or the anointed and the whole Psalms show how much David endured from his own brothers, even like Joseph did when they sold him because God gave him a purpose where his father (sun) mother (moon) and stars (brothers) would bow to him. And yet Tovia says, God never wants anyone to bow to a man: There is so much that they simply can't explain or care to explain but just coitize and cleave to feast days they don't comprehend by experience except traditionally. I've been sharing the truth of the experience of the anointing for 30 years with Jews. They are not even open to a discussion:
and speaking of the sun moon stars created on the fourth day, it is Israel and it is the Messiah who is revealed within the house of David that gathers Israel as ONE MAN with one heart. While Christianity is certainly divided, can you say they are anymore divided than the parents who showed them the wrong way to "know" Hashem? Islam tell their people, don't become a Christian: You have to go to hell to be a Christian. They know and at least they admit they don't want to do it. David does it: David starts Christianity by entering hell (THE EVIL ROOT) so he can make the tree good, a tree of life to those who grasp it. So in time, David was snuffed out again by his brothers but God said, NOPE: They may not want David but the nations will love him and for the most part, if Jews didn't make it so hard for Christians to love the Messiah, they would have brought many more people to Hashem through the GOOD ROOT of the tree of knowledge. Islam however will bring peace when the Jews finally finish correcting the root so the heart (Christianity) can be ONE and the FEET (Islam) will walk out what is in the heart and mind and carry Israel on their shoulders. Israel will include the people of the King of Israel, Christianity but they won't need to be a religion anymore than Judaism is. Why? Because the earth will be FILLED with Hashem's glory as the waters (TORAH) cover the sea (subconscious) making all things HIDDEN, conscious. (no more sea): These three will be at peace in the land and they will be an example of how Hashem works in the RESURRECTED ADAM, one man with one heart because all the dead men's bones of the house of Israel will be resurrected by the Spirit of prophecy given to the witnesses of Messiah in themselves.
Isa 19:24 In that day shall Israel be the third with Egypt and with Assyria, even a blessing in the midst of the land:
Isa 19:25 Whom the LORD of hosts shall bless, saying, Blessed be Egypt my people, and Assyria the work of my hands, and Israel mine inheritance.
Assyria, the work of Hashem's hands is Christianity, the workmanship of God of turning the creature into a "son" of God, from Abraham and all his descendants.
Israel always comes "OUT" of the nations, "MADE" by Hashem as a peculiar people from all nations: This is why they struggle so much with hatred among themselves. They don't come from a tribe like the nations do but from all tribes of all people who come out as a people for Hashem's name. Nations have identity and Israel has only one identity that will work in the end. Children of the most high or they simply don't exist but can go back to where ever they come from and be a gentile that benefits from the ones who rose above their personal hate, their evil root, making it good by the Messiah rising in them. . It is written God only needs 10% of the people to become the head (Malachi) which is the TITHE they pay to be raised above the nations they come from. The way the ego (vessel of vanity ) handles this is by forcing people to obey God's laws without even understanding them or realizing that the "heart must be enlarged" to grasp them (da'at):
One can blaspheme the name of God, yet using the " n" word (note I dare not even spell it) is blaspheming man and this has a higher regard than God. One can exhibit a prejudice and be excoriated for being a "phobe" of some variety. Yet calling one who blasphemes God, say a theophobe would be laughable, even among Christians.
Well you see, the "n-word" was used to harm people while enslaving them, so, for historically reasons, we prefer to not invoke that vileness. God on the other hand does not even exist, and even if he did, he would be a genocidal maniac that demands human sacfrice and provides instructions on how to treat your slave. If God existed, he would just be a cry-baby if he got mad at someone that he refuses to show himself too for calling him mean names because they disagree with his genocides, whereas anyone has the right to get upset that someone is using a hate-based word to attack an actually existing being with feelings. Big difference here.
All law is someone's moral philosophy being imposed on everyone else.
It's troubling that Doug looks back to the 1770s as a sort of golden age (around 41 minute mark).
It wasn’t? It’s troubling you don’t… Christians made it to America and implemented a country with Christian ideals. And in the same amount of time as those ideals have been eroded, things have gotten worse.
Is that the new church building in the background being built!? Praise God for the progress!
I was wondering the same thing.
I believe they call that a "green screen".
@@davidfitnesstech No, it's not. They even mention in the video that they are in a building under construction. Also there's another video that they shot here, and you see Doug walking in.
As someone who had concerns about "christian nationalism" i didnt want to vilify it outright as heretical, so i appreciate this explanation. I can now confirm that it IS in fact heretical and should be rejected wholesale. Jesus came to redeem people, people make up nations, but the nation itself isnt going to heaven, nor is it wise to coerce people into believing because a government says so. You will only get MORE nominal christians than true believers. I know its hard for reformed folks to understand this, but Jesus wants us to CHOOSE to follow him. You so desperately want God to force people into heaven/hell. You forget that our battle is not against flesh and blood, you may have already condemned these people to hell and therefore "the enemy", but they're prisoners of the zeitgeist. The answer is not christian government, but changing INDIVIDUAL hearts and minds for the gospel of Salvation through Jesus. If we are ever to be a "christian nation" it wont be from government, it will be from the church being the church.
Strawman. You ignorantly or prideful say Reformed Christians want God to force them to heaven or hell? Lol hermanó you showed your card. Smh
@@RPSanAnto I must be ignorant then because thats the logical conclusion if God chooses only some to redeem...others must be predestined for hell.
Patriotism, for a Christian, can be mission drift. Hebrews 11:13-16. But the ACTION of “Christian Nationalism” obeys Acts 17:30-31.
Another thing guys,
At the end wolf said he doesnt want to go back to reaganomics or anything concerning certain streotypical political ideologies. But one thing to take note of is that since the beginning of this movement that is christianity, Kings, priests, and people have been using it as a means to an end. When you cry out for a christian nation, itll be interesting to see what YOU believe CHRISTIAN means. As I commented before, too many denominations(for good reason) too many conflicting opinions.
Probably not going to respond back to y'all on their location.
It's a "green screen".
I agree that Christian nationalism does not equate to white supremacy or white dominion
Christian nationalism equates to Christian supremacy and Christian dominion
Augustine dealt with this as the two cities. Later Luther had the two kingdoms. Christian citizens will rightly affirm the good and perfect things in their countries. My country right or wrong is pure idolatry.
Enforced worship on Sunday will be the MARK OF THE BEAST.
Today he says, “we want to create the right conditions for Christianity.” Tomorrow they’ll scream “adhere or die, you troublers of the nation!”
As far as schools, public education itself would appear to be something to be dissolved (libertarian model) not appropriated. Parents teaching their own children is the Biblical model. Not taking anything from teachers as a profession, but parents should be directly or indirectly teaching their children which removes this role from the ‘public’ (i.e. state). State education is probably how we got here and is more of a Communist model for education.
heck yes
I also don't believe that the nation's Jesus was referring to in the Great commission was every nation of the world but instead the Nations that were promised to come from Abraham through Isaac and jacob.
The church wrongly teaches at the Jewish people of today are the only descendants of Jacob when there were to be a multitude of Nations come from them. We don't see a multitude of nations in scripture, we only see two kingdoms before their captivity and then supposedly the 1948 foundation of Israel was a fulfillment of prophecy, I would disagree that it is. I do think that the multitude of Nations that reformed in Europe and around the world that became Christians are the true descendants of the children of Israel and the desert of the Nations that Jesus was speaking the Great commission over because no other nation was known of in the Bible
I really resonate with the failure of "neutrality". But it seems like to you this is all about establishing heresy and blasphemy laws. 37:35 Learn from the past, many of the best ideas would have been considered heresies by past Christian governments. Even though I want Christian government, your objectives make me doubt we can do it right.
A Holy Empire is not exactly a protestant idea…
Right. Taking dominion is in the nature of everyone made in the image of God. Therefore it is no wonder that people groups, regardless of who they worship will want to set up their "empires" around what they worship. Whatever religion or "non-religion" a people group claims, they do indeed worship something and what they worship will dictate the kind of society they establish.
Who cares whether or not it is a novel idea. It is the right idea. In the case of every religion save one, it is the right idea but wrong god. Every other religion without exception has a fake make believe god behind there plans and will therefore only hurt humanity and bring utter devastation to the world. Protestant Christianity however stands alone because only the Triune God of the Bible stands alone as the true and living God who is worthy that all the nations should bow before Him in obedience and worship. Not only is this not a new idea, it is God's idea and it is what He is doing right now and has been doing ever since He created all things. This train is headed in one direction and everyone is coming for the ride whether they like it or not. God will sort them out in the end.
@@nando7522 We had pre-protestant Christian empires.
@@victoriathorlacius874
Yes I know. Please see above.
@@nando7522 That were Christian. Not “fake”.
@edwin ooko And how did it do that, exactly?
very interesting! and I do agree with most of the points, just wondering if Protestant America will maybe have to share its position with Catholics and orthodox Christians
Why does Wolfe want Christians to have so much power and "assert their wills"? (Around 42 minutes). To me, this is political ambition and greed of the sort condemned consistently in the NT (see the book of James as one example).
These men don't understand the enemy. Codreanu did.
loving your country sounds strange. It’s not plainly biblical at all. Loving nations in certainly a secular idea. God wants All our hearts. Loving a land sounds like idolatry
Hearing wolf talk about having christian magistrates and enforcers of christian based laws scares me. I’m a follower of christ as well but having so many denominations with so many contentious ideas that sometimes have a different interpretation of love would lead to an America where (like now) a leviathan rules through strength.
Currently the paradigm is a left leaning political sphere which itself is an example of my aforementioned leviathan .
Idk as a follower of Christ and an amateur at history seeing a “christian nation” rise up as mentioned by wolf would probably do more harm than good to christ’s name. But maybe I’m a pessimist.
Also America was founded upon masons not christians, and I’m not exactly sure when the Christian nation that Doug mentions took place. I know the people were religious, but that doesn’t make the nation Christian.
There will never be a christian nation unless it is a literal kingdom of God
_"ldk as a follower of Christ and an amateur at history seeing a "christian nation" rise up as mentioned by wolf would probably do more harm than good to christs name. But maybe I'm a pessimist"_
I think the argument is something like (not whether but which): "subjecting" people to the wise and good is better than subjecting them to the demonic, even when our attempt at the wise and good will be risky and imperfect.
I'm a relative novice as well, but been diving into guys who've read more than me.
Gary DeMar's got some great resourcement on America's Chistian Founding, using quotes from source material from various Supreme Court decisions, and words and actions from the Founding and various State charters.
Good questions and observations! You might want to consider reading the book "In God God We Don't Trust" by David Bercot. It does well at exposing the fact that America was never Christian. To be Christian is be like Christ. We been called to love our enemies, not go to war with them. We've been called to care for the immigrants not build a wall to keep them out. In no case should earthly citizenship cause us to relate to anyone else in an unchristlike manner. If we have this concept then christion nationalism and Christ are irreconcilable and we should therefore seek to advance the kingdom of God, a nation without borders who is always free in the truest sense of the word. This is a very disappointing conversation to me. Peace.
@@gregoryweaver3670 I’ve heard of it! I think we and our Puritan forefathers (and Anglican ones), along with major Supreme Court decisions reviewing our nation’s ideological commitments would disagree with that thesis!
I agree on the disappointment. It cuts both ways. But, at the core, the question is whose vision of both the historical record, and the telos of discipline the US as a nation is right. Will Jesus have dominion over the US, in a National way, or is such a project a logical impossibility to you? If the latter, biblically, why? If kings and queens are to be foster parents to the church, I don’t see why they’d leave their Kingdoms out.
@@gregoryweaver3670 ruclips.net/video/Y2e-HpL63Q0/видео.html
This is a further set of arguments along the same line.
So establishing Christian Nationalism is a matter of “having the will to assert it (force it) through institutions and society.” -Stephen Wolfe
So for Stephen Wolfe establishing a Christian Nationalism is a matter of a will to power. At it’s heart, Christian Nationalism is about power but not the power of God given to Christians by grace, i.e. as when the promised land “flowing with milk and honey” was given to National Israel-full of the spoils the wicked toiled in. No, the “authority” of Christian Nationalism is a carnal authority and this is why an hour long conversation on the subject offers no biblical justification and only scant references to protestant tradition.
10yrs from now all these Christian Nationalist are going to be deconstructing their faith and apologizing for this obvious nonsense. But they’ll have sold millions of books.
When they try to sell books on christian nationalism, you know this is not going to end up well. Also, Doug Wilson's daughters are also into teaching women and selling books, its family business.
Good points.
'Will to power' in the Nietzschean conception is the imposition of one's will on the world as a basis for authority.
Wolfe, whatever he is saying, is NOT saying that a man's will is the basis of authority; to equate the terminology because of a coincidence of words is a logical fallacy (poisoning the well, equivocation).
He asserts that Christians must use the power inherent to the state in a manner he believes the Bible ordains it to be used- for the good of the nation and the promulgation of Christian liberty.
I will point out that the nation of Israel forced their way into possession of Canaan (with God's command behind their actions, of course). They exerted power in order to obtain blessings, then lost those blessings in part because of a degradation of their civil government in the judges, in Saul, and in the two kingdoms of Israel. They possessed a distinctly Christian (pre-Christ, but I don't have a better term) nation, one they maintained as per Romans 13 and the Pentateuch, through the civil and criminal laws given them by God, as administered by the authority of the civil government.
As Christians, our true citizenship is in heaven. We make an idol of nationalism and forget that the Bible says that our best democracies are fading.
Exactly!
Where does the Bible say our best democracies are fading? I've never read that.
It's strange to pull out this verse as antithetical to this vague project Wilson and Wolfe are discussing.
Does it not say to serve the Lord now, in this life? If your home is in heaven, why would the Lord tell you to serve Him now? Because it applies to this and the coming age imo.
No one is worshiping the nation or putting it before God, you’re using idol as a buzzword. We are simply saying the baby sacrifices will stop and much more etc.
I think one needs to remember that you can only have one master. No pledge of allegiance to a flag. No oath for a Republic. It's idolatry. You can love your country and even fight for it, but you can only have one master. Which is it? A nation or God? God has destroyed nations for idolatry and those contained his own people! This really isn't up for debate, but it will upset some people. If you're Christian, the realization will become acknowledged as an accepted truth. If you're a nationalist or traditionalist, you'll find out where your heart really lies.
I gladly say the pledge of allegiance….in the USA where I’m from it’s literally in my pledge…one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all……..keys words under God.
what's with the background???
16:57 so would he suggest that same mentality within the states? Should we prevent floods of people moving to a specific state? Because I live in Texas and we have a flood of people from California coming and I don’t want their liberal thinking to corrupt my wonderful state. I’d like to indoctrinate them first too. 😂😅
36% of US evangelicals are charismatic/ Pentecostal. 20%(?) of Americans are Catholic. In addition, there are dedicated Orthodox and others.
Christian nation is a laudable goal but we are all one in Christ Jesus. The lines are too narrow.
I get strange vibes from this interview.
So do I
Sometimes I think “I just can’t imagine a Christian defending slavery at the start of America”. And now I think, these are the kind of people who would have had a “biblical” reason to uphold slavery.
In the book he writes, “The classical Protestant position is that civil authorities ought to order outward goods to this highest good or, put differently, to establish and maintain the best possible outward conditions for people to acquire spiritual good. Their objects of action are things circa sacra-around sacred things. This can include the funding of church construction; ministerial and seminary financial support; the suppression of public blasphemy, heresy, and impious profanation; obligating Sabbath observance; and other things.”
So we want the magistrate to suppress Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormons, etc…?
Should we punish Seventh Day Adventist’s for worshipping on the wrong Sabbath?
I think John Locke’s (first) Letter on Toleration got things right. I confess I’ve only read the first four chapters in the book (thus far) and this part sounds to me like he proposes we return to a pre-Lockean view.
I think the Supreme Court decision - Church of the Holy Trinity vs. the United States is excellent, but but from what I’ve so far (and I may be speaking too soon) Mr. Wolfe is going well beyond that.
I appreciate to video. I am Reformed and worship at a CREC AFFILIATED Presbyterian church.
Once the concept of difference on “secondary issues” is entertained it’s not easily constrained. Thus secularism .
* Christian Nationalism seeks a different messiah than Jesus. Jesus was tempted by Satan in the desert with authority to rule the whole world. He chose the way of the servant, the way of the cross, the way of loving your enemy and changing the world through nonviolent love. Christian Nationalism says “let’s take that deal”. Jesus rebuked Peter when he cut off the Roman soldier’s ear with his sword and healed him even though he was on his way to an excruciating death on the cross. A Sunday law will bring the mark of the beast eventually*
Just wondering how long black people and brown people had the same experience as whites in America, in percentage of time, of our national history? Which date in our national history do we go back to, to find the right example of a Christian nation? The 50’s? 40’s? How were those times for black and brown people? Biblical Christianity has always accepted all races even though America hasn’t. I’d rather stick with Biblical Christianity and stick to sharing the Gospel.
Our nation has never been perfect, but elements of it have been better in the past.
Well if i was black in 1900 I'd be a lot happier in America than Africa...
QUESTION 4: Government is to a nation is what a gun is to an individual. If you and I walk into a room and there is a gun on the table and I knew you were evil and hostile, would it be unchristian of me to grab the gun first? Likewise, knowing what we know about people, if there was a government laying on the table would it be wrong for us as Christian to try to seize it first?
We already tried Christian nationalism. Then a whole lot of black, brown, female, gay, non-Christian people pointed out just how bad it was for them.
Wrong. Most of the people you mentioned were Christian (most African Americans, many Asian and Pacific Islanders, and Latinos were some brand of Protestant or Catholic), besides many homosexuals and non-christians.
The reason why people stopped believing in the Christian project is due to poor teaching on the faith and being sold the lie that sexual liberation and drugs are replacements for family, purpose, and the divine. Look at how unhappy, atomized, and socially poor society has developed as secular values replace Christian values. Endless homelessness, massive wealth inequality, rampant fatherlessness, far less kids/ family building and retention.
Social progressivism and secularism are cancer to a community.