We need more of these discussions, especially as both the myth of neutrality crumbles beneath us, and reformed eschatology continues to make a resurgence.
You can have Reformed eschatology and still go to hell. Reformed people have rejected their essential doctrine - Saving Faith - and now think correct Theology is salvation. I hear Reformed people arguing Theology but NOT THE GOSPEL of Saving Faith.
dont protestants recognize how superficial and adolescent this type of discussion is? they are plainly mocking christian division and justifying a 500 year old error-filled subjective revolution with a fictional label of CHRISTENDOM 2.0! get real... this is the product of the atheistic reformers who turned God into a book and allowed each person to make his or her own truth by reading it this is shameful... plain and simple
@@guyroszel7584 really…. Planned Parenthood is a reproductive health care provider. The Spanish Inquisition was a renaissance regulatory body formed to identify heretics. Making an equivalence between the two is fallacious nonsense, yah?
I appreciate the adult conversation regarding this matter. There has been many that have reacted to those that disagree with extreme hositlity, but this discussion is an expample of how mature Christians behave. Thank you
I love watching these two talk they always make each other laugh and they are going to discuss things that go over my head that I need to study. Love these men, two of the greatest theologians and apologists of my time.
dont protestants recognize how superficial and adolescent this type of discussion is? they are plainly mocking christian division and justifying a 500 year old error-filled subjective revolution with a fictional label of CHRISTENDOM 2.0! get real... this is the product of the atheistic reformers who turned God into a book and allowed each person to make his or her own truth by reading it this is shameful... plain and simple
I am so moved by the idea of envisioning more unity in the church. Learning from history (together with the Bible) as a great asset that we have now that was lacking in many other crucial moments in history.
Yes yes yes! Just saw this posted and I KNOW this PARTICULAR conversation between the two PARTICULAR brothers in Christ is needed at this PARTICULAR moment.
@Steven Smith jump to about oh... 44:30 or so.. this was recorded after the Twitter wars. I think your subtle hint at the timing being somehow nefarious is unfounded.
Great conversation, brothers. I am a Christian in the Reformed Baptist tradition and a Historic Premillennialist. I am not only open to Doug's central thesis in "Mere Christendom", but I think that these ideas could unite the church in the 21st century in a Christ-centered direction that will be, dare I say, better than what we have seen in previous Christian cultures. And if I am right in my eschatology, this will have to exist alongside apostasy, and many things continuing to go downhill until Jesus returns.
Yup, def not going the Post Mill route. There will not be Christian pockets of society, let alone worldwide Christianity being embraced. Its all long-hope.
@@andypatscot7737Christianity has had ups and downs over the last 2000 years. The center of Christianity has been destroyed several times, and instead of falling, it spreads and grows in even more areas. Jerusalem used to be the center, then North Africa then Europe and now North America. The world is not just the West, as Christianity is declining in the West, it is growing by leaps and bounds in Africa and the East. I don't think we need to take this localized decline as the 'final fall of Christianity for the fourth time, but this time for real, trust me'.
52:21 OK, so you go up to this hypothetical person who is doing something "bad" in public and tell them they should stop because it's against the bible. What happens when they say the bible is just a book and they don't believe in god? Your argument kinda falls flat unless you can point out the tangible harm they're causing. For example, if a trans person is just existing in public and you tell them that's not what god wants for them and they say god's not real. How would you still justify your opinion that what their doing with their own body is wrong? That's like telling a fully grown adult to behave themselves or santa won't bring any gifts for them at Christmas.
dont protestants recognize how superficial and adolescent this type of discussion is? they are plainly mocking christian division and justifying a 500 year old error-filled subjective revolution with a fictional label of CHRISTENDOM 2.0! get real... this is the product of the atheistic reformers who turned God into a book and allowed each person to make his or her own truth by reading it this is shameful... plain and simple
Thank you Mr. White and Mr. Wilson for the solid food that you give us sheep. I pray that God gives you brothers more strength and boldness for these times we are about to go into. 👊
While I disagree with these guys on a few issues, I enjoy these sweater vest discussions. It reminds me of the two off centered uncles at a family gathering that everyone finds a hoot to listen to.
Good interview. I can't see what else to do except accurately apply the doctrine of the lesser magistrate, and it seems Beza had the best clarity and conciseness on that. Unless the Lord sends widespread revival, the logical extreme of it will produce persecution. And that will last as long as the Lord wants it to. But ya still gotta plod forward and be a light and witness. Tares can ignore it. Wheat can't. The government will either be the government and punish evil and reward good, or it won't, and then suffer the promised consequences. Since all laws address morality to one degree or the other, the only question is: which morality? If revival occurs to a degree wherein government consults with the church related to what is and is not moral (per God's Word), then it's the church's job to actually be biblical. The problems of the past when that occured was a failure of God's people - that is, they weren't biblical. If the Lord grants opportunity again on that topic of teaching the nations, as it were, then being biblical will be paramount, as it always has been. Either way, still gotta plod forward and tell the 'Herods' no, if necessary, and continue to preach in the 'Temple' like Peter and the guys. That's just how it is. But, Jesus is faithful. The disposition of powers and principalities are His prerogative alone.
What a weak libertarian position. This is exactly how we got into the current position of legalized abortion and transgender operations for kids. Christians who merely screech in the public square but don't have the backbone to use public power. Despite the fact that all the righteous kings of Israel are the ones who tore down pagan groves and built up the temple. Libertarianism is incompatible with Christianity.
@possumhunter1179....none of the apostles advocated establishing a Roman christian state, in fact their mission work makes it clear the affairs of the church consumed all their time. I think your idea of marriage between church and state is not only unbiblical (the reformers really didn't get this part right), but it has a history of bearing extremely bad fruit.....christian State after christian state have persecuted true believers and made martyrs and they have all failed in history without exception. Why? Because Jesus's kingdom is not of this world and His followers have the opposite mandates that earthly kingdoms have.....The State is put there by God to punish evil doers, to take vengeance....while Christians are given the mandate to show mercy to their enemies and never avenge themselves...these two kingdoms are literally in opposition to one another, you cannot serve them both in harmony, it is not possible. Any attempts to marry these two kingdoms ends in what we see over and over again in history.... persecutions, corruptions and martyrdom for the children of God. The kingdom of God cannot be monopolized, or manipulated by mankind, it is a kingdom that spreads all over the globe without the State's means and in fact, in spite of the State's attempts to regulate it. We don't need earthly kingdoms regulating what they suppose is God's kingdom, they don't have that mandate at all and in fact any attempts to do so only destroys those states.
@@christianmama2441 You still have to deal with Daniel's friends not bowing in Shinar, Daniel praying in plain sight in spite-of and because of the King's mandate, Jesus teaching to pay to God's what's God's (leaving it obvious that Caesar doesn't have claim on what belongs to God), Jesus telling Pilot that Pilot has no authority over Him because He alone has all authority to lay down his life and take it up again, Peter and the guys preaching in the Temple even after the Sanhedrin told them not to, and Paul telling multiple high authorities (Roman and otherwise) what they owed their Maker. All this, and not to mention that Jonah prophesied knowing full well that the King of Nineveh would mandate an insincere repentance, and that after folks obeyed him, the Lord mercifully relented from wrath to them anyway- because He's always merciful, and it's all about His mercy - It's not about us. Never has been. And Jesus said He's giving this generation the Sign of Jonah - and that's all they're getting. And it's enough. And He said that if we love Him, we'll keep His commandments. I'm not advocating some amalgamation of church and state. But the Word of God is clear on the church's mandate to be ready give an answer for the hope within, and to disciple the nations. Did Jonah disciple Nineveh, or Daniel disciple Nebuchadnezzar or Darius? Or did Paul disciple Felix? What did our Lord teach Pilot? Christ is King. We either believe Him when He says He has all authority in heaven and earth, or we doubt Him. It is always a matter of faith, and a matter of believing that every word of the Bible is absolutely true. In the final analysis, humans are made Imago Dei, and all human beings (regardless of government position) are required to give honor to whom honor is due. The degree and type of honor the magistrate owes the people is to punish evil and reward good. The reason that's significant is because it's not about them honoring humans so much as it's about them honoring the One in Whose Image humans are made. It's always about Christ's honor. But, to whom has the Lord given the job of teaching these magistrates what is objectively good and what is objectively evil? When they ask, "By what authority do you say this or do that? - what's the answer?" The answer is Jesus. He has all authority. And that's the answer and hope we're supposed to be ready to give. Because in this world, it's trouble. Some magistrate will want you to give him honor that's not due to him. He will ask you to pay to him what belongs to God. And that's idolatry. Ascribing any of God's attributes to any creature or created thing - of any sort - is idolatry. Humans don't know what they think they know. And humans don't owe humans any degree of worship. Zero. Nada. Zilch. The church's job is to proclaim Christ's Kingdom until He comes. Magistrates must fear the Lord, and we're required to pray that they would, and tell them why they should, even so. John Knox certainly had no problem saying that to a queen or two. Seems to me that he was following some pretty solid biblical examples when he did, to boot.
These two brothers are heroes and an ongoing blessing to me. And I sure wish the G3 guys would shut up for a minute and listen to this discussion and LEARN something! It wouldn’t hurt if they also actually engaged the apparently patient efforts and clarifications which those they suddenly oppose have been trying to offer.
In all fairness I wish all of the younger guys, including Webbon, AD, William Wolfe, and Jon Harris, would all take a page out of these brothers handbook. Theirs, as well as relationships/friendships and unity we saw with R.C. Sproul and John MacArthur, Ligonier & Masters/Grace to You, should be spread abroad amongst the brothern. I also love how Voddie and Tim Ascol approach this topic as well. In my opinion, the younger guys have only caused more confusion due to social media pride and cross communication. Instead of trying to read between lines on social media platforms, they need to pick up the phone and talk to one another, or make time to meet one another. When podcasts becomes the Christians business/livelihood, folding to worldly tactics are inevitable.
@@tinamariejohnson7520 Agreed. Watching them fight on Twitter with little cartoons gets old too. They say men who play video games are weak (which I don’t), yet they spend all day scrolling through social media.
Listen, BIG things are happening. The Universe is 26.7 billion years old. We have literally obtained new heavens, from the JAMES webb telescope. As in James the Just, brother of Jesus, on the world wide web, which is the white throne that is neither in heaven nor on earth. The Kingdom is here! The first 13.7 billion year heavens were found by the Lambda, as in Christ is called the Lamb. The age of Jesus is completely done, and the age of his brother James the Just, "For whose sake heaven and earth came into existence," in the Gospel of Thomas is here. His church will simply be the fellowship of those who live their lives before the throne, that is to say, it focuses on being a good person. While many fall away from Christianity or are not Christian, that's all a matter of fact and theory, what we mentally believe. We do not fall away from what is important. From the refinement of ourselves from sin, or from loving one another. Everyone is judged by works. So it is not so much a new religion, as it is a new fellowship that looks at everything before it as the collective heritage of our past. Make no mistake, all of the symbols are clear. I am moved by the spirit to make videos about this, and it will happen soon.
Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world.”
Doug, I'd love to do an Against Nice podcast on this subject with you. But in the interim, I would retort that the neutral public square hasn't failed. Christians who have determined to be neutral in the public square is the issue. So much more. But what I'm hearing of the book looks great.
It can work! I'm a premil dispensationalist. I look around and see where things are going. I ask myself this, if Jesus raptures the Church in 2073 how many Americans under 50 will he take? Yeah, I'm on board. We can't wait even 50 years let alone centuries. I'll never be a Calvinist and I'll never be postmil but I'm on board with restoring America. I'm a Christian Nationalist. And I'm going to do my darnedest to bring my whole SBC with me. All I ask is that Doug an James not be too disappointed when Jesus shows up prematurely.
These talks are helping to clarify my thinking. Thank you Sir. I’m still interested to learn how this would affect pseudo Christian denominations such as JW and Mormon’s. Also, how would it affect Catholicism? Would the government embrace a particular interpretation of the Apostle’s Creed in terms of which denominations are a part of the National identity? I’m deeply interested to learn more, but since my questions haven’t been answered here I am forced to read the book…
11:36 is he seriously claiming Christendom was “a thing” in America in the 19th century because the Supreme Court “determined we were a Christian nation”? That’s absurd. And pathetically caesaropapist.
No matter your eschatology we should be ready for Christ to come back. None of them have a date on when things are going to come back so how do some point to Him coming sooner or later?
At around 48 min. in, Doug lays out how We are 'the early Church' (one day being confused with Them; seeming/being early in The KINGdom expansion); Amen. What does this mean for Eph. 4?; "HE Gave Gifts to Men, first.., then..." right now, as "We are immature". So, MacArthur and his followers will hate this.. a Foundation is only Laid Once (i am a SAPPER; this is True), but Eph. 4 actually says when and why We have These Gifts (knowing we like to place things in the past or future only, not in the present to deal with). i would Love to hear a balanced presentation from Holy Scripture, in context. A Brother In CHRIST Who Is Optimistic because You see the Victory of CHRIST Over All Things (Ps.110; 1st Cor.15), here in time and space! Grace, Peace, n LOVE to all the Elect In CHRIST, to the Praise of HIS Glorious ____. Alone!-)
Brilliant! In the UK our most robust discussions by “leaders”’are how long should be stay closed, is God a he or a she and how much should we invest in Blackrock/ Vanguard 🤡🤡🤡🤡
I don’t even know how a Calvinist can argue for a true “Christendom”, insofar as it would be a truly Christian political entity. Are you saying that “Christian nationalists” would legislate through the action of the Holy Spirit upon them? Do you really believe that there could truly be a “Christian Nation” that doesn’t have Christ himself as its ruler? I thought we were totally depraved. Please explain this. Advocating for policies that align with Christian values is one thing. People of many different religions and sects of Christianity or even atheists can agree with this. But what you’re talking about is something entirely different.
Unless I missed something during the course of this one hour interview, the fate of infidels and heretics in this new version of Christendom is a merely a detail to figure out when we get there. We live in a time when one witnesses political rallies featuring images of the cross, the 45th president, and automatic weapons. Such a time demands clarity in these themes.
lol that sounds like something I’d like sorted out ahead of time, especially considering the fact that I’m not a Calvinist and may have my head cut off for it if some of these guys have their way. My gay uncle is in big trouble too.
love to chat with James and Doug, if you 2 are ever in north georgia...drop by...I own a motel in chatsworth...stay here with me and we shall move forward in scripture together...I AM the last...and there is no other
If Christianity were meant to be a governing religion, then why was this never foretold in the scriptures? And furthermore, why were no instructions presented by the apostles regarding doctrine and practice when Christianity would finally become a state religion? It looks to me as if the quandary is trying to use the scriptures to deal with something that was never addressed in the first place. What happened as a result is that a number of kings, bishops, and reformers would then read their own ideas back into the Bible to impose their authoritarianism as the will of God over the masses. What am I missing here?
Nothing. There is no such thing as a righteous government until the Messiah rules on earth. Oh and by the way, in order for that to happen, ALL the worlds militaries need to be destroyed, even Americas.
@@Bibleguy89-uu3nrI don’t get this take at all. Christendom 1.0 was good. Communism was never good. How is that even remotely comparable? You have to be incredibly brainwashed by secularists (popular culture) and their propaganda about “the dark ages» to even make that connection. Can Christendom 1.0 be improved upon? Of course! Was it inherently bad like atheistic communism? Of course not.
Perhaps if we Christians were white hot focused on fulfilling Matthew 28 making disciples by spreading the gospel and teaching them all that Jesus commanded, America's deprave culture would be reformed and the enmass deprave minds and its bad fruit would be replaced with God honoring conduct and law abiding citizens. Blessed is the nation whose God is the Lord.
It's terribly difficult to believe that this isn't the time immediately prior to the major onset of the biblically revealed conditions describing the eschaton. Postmillennialism appears to be a drawn out utopian dreamscape whose theology may be best left between 1880 and 1930. Marana'ta!
And I'm sure people felt that way when this was happening in Jerusalem and again in North Africa. This isn't the first time that a historical center of christian influence has started waning, and I don't think it will be the last, but God has always preserved his church and made it stronger.
12:19 “The Reformation happened while Christendom was still an ongoing thing.” Yes, and after the Reformation happened, Christendom was no longer an ongoing thing.
Regarding some of James' concerns about working out the details, it's important to understand that God uses means to achieve his ends. We see that from Creation until Christ and we shouldn't expect anything different from Christ until the end of this world. Will there come a time when there will be greater cohesion in the body of Christ making "Christendom" more achievable? Maybe, but we still must live today and living today without a plan, without a compass, and without a star to follow is foolishness. Moreover, it's a foolishness Satan has manipulated the modern church into accepting and even embracing (through escapist eschatology, among other things). It's not our prerogative to wait for Christ to magically turn a majority of hearts to him before we start **being** Christian. We are called, literally, to be the means through which that gradual change occurs throughout history. And it's not the evil "Theocracy" the world screams about; it's just a matter of being faithful Christians WHILE Christ works all things out. Like all of history, we are part of the means to God's ends and our mission is to simply **be** Christian. God gives new hearts to people and we act like people with new hearts! We don't change hearts, we live as heart-changed people. God then uses his new-hearted people to work throughout the world like leaven. In the end, the Christian has only one fundamental decision to make: will I act as a Christ follower or will I act as an anti-Christ. Both necessarily require certain behaviors and goals. If Christians are to act Christianly, as prescribed in Scripture, they can't help but bring about a better and better Christendom, in the exact same way that people acting as anti-Christs will necessarily bring about a darker and darker kingdom of Satan. There will certainly be mistakes made along the way--we are all fallen creatures and citizens of both kingdoms are mixed in many ways--but that's not an excuse to NOT be Christian. If Christians allow themselves to buy into escapist eschatology and doom and gloom while constantly apologizing for and being crippled by mistakes made either today or in centuries past, they will lose in their generations, because their enemy will not stop in their mission when they get caught out. The biggest problem with Christianity today is that Christians are unwilling to act Christianly for fear of offending, being embarrassed, or being attacked. While there are some tricky bits and there is some flexibility here and there, being Christian really isn't that mysterious; it's just that it can be dangerous in a world set against you and it certainly doesn't jive with the so-called first world lifestyles many have grown accustomed to. I've said for over a decade now that the next Reformation or whatever you want to call it, may very well come out of Russia or China or Africa or South America, where Christians know what it means to suffer for their faith and they better recognize **and** call out Light and Dark for what they are. Whatever happens though, I just want to be able to say that I sincerely and faithfully tried to be Christian--to fight a good fight. I think that's what all Christians should strive for, and as more and more Christians do this we will see more and more change, not due to our use of force but due to God's amazing grace. We will one day see our part in the larger movement.
does anyone know where I can find a book with the persecution of Baptist who James White is referring to? I am a southern Baptist and I’m always interested in the perception among Christians. How mean and intolerant Baptist are, but we are the ones that seem to be thrown down in the holes, and have tongue clips attached to our mouths and thrown in fires.
He never really answered how to keep the government from religious persecution. Yes, I agree that the state's laws must be governed by Christ, but who gets to decide what counts as a denominational difference and an intolerable heresy? Baptists are included, but Mormons are not. What about Catholics? Even Doug and James disagree about their salvation. Even if those lines are drawn clearly, is it illegal to be a Mormon or just discouraged? These aren't details to work out later, they're questions to answer before a massive group of evangelicals (myself included) would even consider signing on.
Would we let a Mormon in office? If not, what about a Catholic? I have a feeling Doug and James would disagree with each other because Doug thinks Catholics are (or can be) genuine Christians and James doesn't.
@@zachdavenport8509 It's an obvious hole in Doug's argument. Without a centralized federal authority on religion, it's impossible to hold together a "Mere Christendom" on a political level. Catholics, Protestants, Mormons and even Muslims all generally agree on marriage between one man and one woman, the current gender identity crisis, and moral issues like porn, etc. However, on a political level, it is unfeasible.
Most american evangelicals are too individualistic or pietistic to care about the common good and politics, sadly. They prefer to retreat to an intense yet private faith.... But Doug has explained this elsewhere. Nicean Trinitarianism should be codified into law. Now this wouldn't mean all other groups would be persecuted. But they wouldn't be supported by the state.
@@felixguerrero6062 Not in England. The Anglican church is a taxpayer funded, state church which is supported by law. There are 4 seats in the House of Lords reserved for Anglican bishops, which makes England and Iran the only nations where clerics are guaranteed seats in government. However, religion is still dying in England despite the government support. Less than 10% of British people actually attend Anglican services on a Sunday aside from Easter. State theocracy might solve some of our problems but not the root problem: faithlessness.
@@mosesking2923 The Anglican Church is not tax funded. (Of course there is state funding for historical buildings, and a handful of other things, but the Anglican churches are primarily funded by the laity). Also do you know many Lords Spirituals there used to be in the House of Lords? ENGLAND wouldn't even existed without Christianity-----it is the Church that created the national identity and polity in the first place, you goon. 🤦♂️
Based upon the logic of the following points, might the argument be made that in the United States of American, Pastor Wilson's "Christendom 2.0" already exists to some degree? 1. Pastor Wilson at 16:13-28: "... I believe there has to be a separation of church and state because the church and state are separate institutions. They're separate governments, and I think that they need to be kept distinct and not blurred." Response: Does not the separation of church and state already exist in the United States of America? 2. Commonly referred to as the Declaration of Independence, the unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America adopted on July 4, 1776 states: "Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed ..." Response: The USA is a constitutional republic whose elected officials represent "the consent of the governed." Unless Pastor Wilson is (A) is arguing for abolishing this form of government and (B) replacing it with something different, then (C) wouldn't the present model dating back to 1789 be compatible with his concept of "Christendom 2.0"? 3. Amendment I to the Unites States Constitution states: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances." Response: Since: (A) the US Constitution's First Amendment guarantees the freedom of religion and (B) presumably Pastor Wilson is not arguing for abolishing this First Amendment right, then (C) isn't freedom of religion in the USA compatible with Pastor Wilson's "Christendom 2.0"? 4. Therefore, if Pastor Wilson is in total agreement that the present form of government based upon the US Constitution is compatible with "Christendom 2.0", then what might constitute the latter's development and progress? Possibly the following? Making common cause with: A. Fellow Protestant Christians in a united effort to achieve a desired common good in law through the consent of the governed, i.e. voting. B. Non-Protestants, i.e., Muslims, Jews, Catholics, etc. who (1) share similar moral values and (2) will participate in civic action, i.e., voting, to achieve a similar desired common good in law.
Wilson is in favor of the 1st amendment which prohibits a national church of the USA. That doesn’t prohibit state churches for each individual state. When the USA was founded, 9 of the 13 states had tax payer funded State churches. This is the model which imitates the Holy Roman Empire’s Augsburg treaty which allowed Germany princes to decide the religion of each principality.
@@mosesking2923 1. "That doesn’t prohibit state churches for each individual state." Response: Wouldn't that require an overwhelming majority vote to establish a particular state church, perhaps a 2/3 vote? How could that even begin to be implemented without a constitutional convention that the US Constitution provides for? It takes 34 states to call for the convention and 38 states to ratify any amendments it proposes. At the present moment, a constitutional convention appears unlikely, but if the US continues to unravel, perhaps 34 states eventually might call for one. 2. "When the USA was founded, 9 of the 13 states had tax payer funded State churches." Response: My New England ancestors were forcibly taxed to support and attend the established Congregational Church in the Massachusetts Bay Colony which was Calvinist. After the US war for independence and ratification of the US Constitution's First Amendment granting freedom of religion, my NE ancestors migrated to what became the state of Maine, and in the process abandoned their attendance at Calvinist churches. I respect the right of anyone to attend whatever church they desire in accordance with the dictates of their conscience. 3. "This is the model which imitates the Holy Roman Empire’s Augsburg treaty which allowed Germany princes to decide the religion of each principality." Response: A. This is the model that followed upon the situation of Fritz Urbe, an Anabaptist, who was imprisoned in the dungeon of Wartburg Castle from 1541 until his death in 1548. Urbe resided in a Lutheran territory under Martin Luther's discipline and he was severely punished for the crime of refusing to baptize his children after Urbe had read Luther's translation of the German New Testament. Dr. White refers to Fritz Urbe in this video. B. Do you want a prince or an elected assembly to decide what shall be the penalties for non-compliance with the official state church, including the refusal to attend and to pay church taxes?
@@annakimborahpa 1. The constitution of the US already allows for state churches, so no constitutional convention is needed. New Hampshire kept its establishment until 1817; Connecticut kept its establishment until 1818; and Massachusetts did not abandon its state support for Congregationalism until 1833. All it would take is a state legislature to approve a state church with a signature from the governor. 2. All taxpayers are forced to fund operations they don’t like. Liberals had to fund Trump’s wall and conservatives have to fund planned parenthood. Why are you whining about your ancestors? Nobody gets a free pass from taxation. 3. Fritz Erbe was punished because he disobeyed the authorities of where he lived. Romans 13 is clear: Christians must obey their government officials. If Fritz didn’t like the rules, he should have moved to an Anabaptist state. Instead, he decided to stay in a Lutheran state and disobey the authorities so he got what was coming to him. The rules of noncompliance (not paying taxes) are set by the authorities. Read Matt 22. “Render to Caesar” nobody gets an exemption from paying taxes, regardless of where they are going.
@@mosesking2923 1. I'm happy for the choices my New England ancestors made after they received freedom of religion under the US Constitution. 2. If it is as simple as all that in establishing a state church in the US, well then best wishes. I assume that a majority of citizens would have to elect a state legislature to designate a particular church which represents their interests before getting a governor's signature. 3. Presently are there any states in that position? Are there any particular churches that have the sway to get a legislature to select them as a state church? 4. How about Pastor Wilson's Christ Church that is a member of the Communion of Reformed Evangelical Churches which holds to the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith whose Chapter 26, Article 4 states: "The Pope of Roman Catholicism cannot in any sense be head of the church; rather, he is the antichrist, the man of lawlessness, and the son of destruction, who exalts himself in the church against Christ and all that is called God. The Lord will destroy him with the brightness of his coming" (alluding to 2 Thessalonians 2:2-9)? [Translation courtesy of Founders Ministries] 5. Are you interested in a state church who teaches that the Pope, the Catholic Bishop of Rome, is the Antichrist? I know that the Calvinist Presbyterian state Church of Scotland teaches this.
No it would require significant change, something like the constitution of Poland. Where Jesus Christ is the officially declared the King. But even further, where Nicean Trinitarian Christianity is codified in law... It's a massive departure from the classic liberalism of the founding fathers...which isn't a bad thing.
Moses on implementing Christendom 2.0: “If you say in your heart, ‘These nations are greater than I. How can I dispossess them?’ you shall not be afraid of them but you shall remember what the Lord your God did to Pharaoh and to all Egypt, the great trials that your eyes saw, the signs, the wonders, the mighty hand, and the outstretched arm, by which the Lord your God brought you out. So will the Lord your God do to all the peoples of whom you are afraid. Moreover, the Lord your God will send hornets among them, until those who are left and hide themselves from you are destroyed. You shall not be in dread of them, for the Lord your God is in your midst, a great and awesome God. The Lord your God will clear away these nations before you little by little. You may not make an end of them at once, lest the wild beasts grow too numerous for you. But the Lord your God will give them over to you and throw them into great confusion, until they are destroyed. And he will give their kings into your hand, and you shall make their name perish from under heaven. No one shall be able to stand against you until you have destroyed them." -- Dt 7:17-24
@@mosesking2923 Hehehehe ...that never crossed my mind. But it is the formula for discipling the nations per the Great Commission -- i.e. Christendom -- in the face of what looks like impossible odds. Don't be afraid, remember all God has done in the past, don't be surprised when it doesn't happen all at once because the task is bigger than you imagine and you're not ready yet, God will accomplish what he has commissioned us to do, our enemies are not invincible ... rather the internal contradictions and lies by which they rule will be turned into confusion in the face of the gospel and be their downfall until they're destroyed, and future generations will forget their names even as they wonder how anyone could have fallen for such apparent and obvious nonsense. Thus saith Moses ...
No better than last time. Sinful people do sinful stuff and ruin everything no matter what system we choose. Obviously some are less horrible than others, but in the end, we always mess everything up.
@@austinrothjr secular Scandinavia seems the least horrible to me! But I think the point is that religion has not been the solution anywhere, Christianity hasn’t prevented corruption and war and abuse and rape in any country
@@aallen5256 National Christianity does prevent these things. Look at the Roman Empire under Constantine. For the first time in history, rape was recognized as a crime under Constantine. Not to mention the end of the gladiator games. The end of infanticide and "exposing" babies. The key is theocracy. Religion needs to be combined with state.
@@mosesking2923 Nationalised religion absolutely doesn’t prevent any of those things. The history of Europe is conclusive!! Making something a crime doesn’t mean it stopped happening by any means!!
@@mosesking2923 Catholics and Protestants tend to have a rose-colored view of theocracy because their religions called the shots throughout European history. The Catholic and Protestant monarchies were just as oppressive as Roman emperors. Ppl were often coerced to accept them with the threat of being killed, imprisoned, beaten, or stripped of their properties and worship facilities.
do you have an educated/catechized-enough populace to run your ideal state? avoiding sacralism sounds like an ideal. at some level, the "state/caesar/magistrate" will have to rule according to some kind of ethical basis, influenced either by your preferred denomination or at worst some anti-God worldview.
![I.N "HALLUCINATION" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/n5B5q1Hwt_U/mqdefault.jpg)
We need more of these discussions, especially as both the myth of neutrality crumbles beneath us, and reformed eschatology continues to make a resurgence.
You can have Reformed eschatology and still go to hell.
Reformed people have rejected their essential doctrine - Saving Faith - and now think correct Theology is salvation. I hear Reformed people arguing Theology but NOT THE GOSPEL of Saving Faith.
dont protestants recognize how superficial and adolescent this type of discussion is? they are plainly mocking christian division and justifying a 500 year old error-filled subjective revolution with a fictional label of CHRISTENDOM 2.0!
get real... this is the product of the atheistic reformers who turned God into a book and allowed each person to make his or her own truth by reading it
this is shameful... plain and simple
"Just like Roe used to be!" 🔥 Amen.
Absolutely epic, just thrown into there nonchalantly.
You said it!
Just like, at one time slavery in America was legal. Imagine that.
@@bobjubeck Really good point.
@@bobjubeck Haha, yep, that would be a taste of their own medicine.
“The Spanish Inquisition was Planned Parenthood on a slow afternoon.” 😳 Whoa, I never thought of it that way.
Maybe you never thought of it that way because that’s a totally false equivalence 🙏
@@aallen5256it's the state sponsored murder of thousands of innocent people, sounds equal to me.
And both remain evil.
@@aallen5256 how so?
@@guyroszel7584 really…. Planned Parenthood is a reproductive health care provider. The Spanish Inquisition was a renaissance regulatory body formed to identify heretics. Making an equivalence between the two is fallacious nonsense, yah?
I appreciate the adult conversation regarding this matter. There has been many that have reacted to those that disagree with extreme hositlity, but this discussion is an expample of how mature Christians behave. Thank you
I feel like I’m listening in on my two Christian uncles. lol Man, how our churches are in need of older men who know and stand firm in the truth.
AMEN!!! I LOVE AND APPRECIATE SEASONED SAINTS!😅
And younger men who are studying and learning form them and for themselves just like these wise and intelligent men have done and continue to do.
Amen. Wise Men.
These talks are great!
It's great to hear you, brothers! I wish you had the time to do one of these every week! They are a great blessing to me!
Such a fascinating discussion
I love watching these two talk they always make each other laugh and they are going to discuss things that go over my head that I need to study. Love these men, two of the greatest theologians and apologists of my time.
More sweater vest dialogs pleeeeease just keep them coming. Talk about anything and everything 💙
I laughed 😅
Love, love, love these discussions. Thank you for having these discussions and making it available.
Excellent thought provoking conversation.. Thank you Pastors
dont protestants recognize how superficial and adolescent this type of discussion is? they are plainly mocking christian division and justifying a 500 year old error-filled subjective revolution with a fictional label of CHRISTENDOM 2.0!
get real... this is the product of the atheistic reformers who turned God into a book and allowed each person to make his or her own truth by reading it
this is shameful... plain and simple
I am so moved by the idea of envisioning more unity in the church. Learning from history (together with the Bible) as a great asset that we have now that was lacking in many other crucial moments in history.
Yes yes yes! Just saw this posted and I KNOW this PARTICULAR conversation between the two PARTICULAR brothers in Christ is needed at this PARTICULAR moment.
@Steven Smith jump to about oh... 44:30 or so.. this was recorded after the Twitter wars. I think your subtle hint at the timing being somehow nefarious is unfounded.
thank you! Finally a civil converstation.
James white is a legend
This was so fantastic. Thank you!
Nothing better than a sweater vest
These guys rock!!
Great conversation, brothers. I am a Christian in the Reformed Baptist tradition and a Historic Premillennialist. I am not only open to Doug's central thesis in "Mere Christendom", but I think that these ideas could unite the church in the 21st century in a Christ-centered direction that will be, dare I say, better than what we have seen in previous Christian cultures. And if I am right in my eschatology, this will have to exist alongside apostasy, and many things continuing to go downhill until Jesus returns.
Both Doug and James are very postmil
They both admit things are getting worse not better. That doesn't exactly advocate for their eschatological position
Yup, def not going the Post Mill route. There will not be Christian pockets of society, let alone worldwide Christianity being embraced. Its all long-hope.
@@andypatscot7737
Thus I remain PreMil.
@@andypatscot7737Christianity has had ups and downs over the last 2000 years. The center of Christianity has been destroyed several times, and instead of falling, it spreads and grows in even more areas.
Jerusalem used to be the center, then North Africa then Europe and now North America. The world is not just the West, as Christianity is declining in the West, it is growing by leaps and bounds in Africa and the East. I don't think we need to take this localized decline as the 'final fall of Christianity for the fourth time, but this time for real, trust me'.
"Right now, we can't have a meaningful discussion on Twitter without everybody getting angry and starting to throw fits." -- Dr. James White
52:21 OK, so you go up to this hypothetical person who is doing something "bad" in public and tell them they should stop because it's against the bible. What happens when they say the bible is just a book and they don't believe in god? Your argument kinda falls flat unless you can point out the tangible harm they're causing. For example, if a trans person is just existing in public and you tell them that's not what god wants for them and they say god's not real. How would you still justify your opinion that what their doing with their own body is wrong? That's like telling a fully grown adult to behave themselves or santa won't bring any gifts for them at Christmas.
Doug wilson for the win. Great ideas. Let's move forward.
I never get tired of watching these thank you both
I have been laughing for a good hour at "...the Anabaptists are running naked through Safeway again."
Haha yes!! That was hilarious!
Cleanup on Aisle 7 ...
😂😂😂
I don't get the joke.
@@wk1810 en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%BCnster_rebellion this may help you
Really looking forward to Mere Christendom !!
dont protestants recognize how superficial and adolescent this type of discussion is? they are plainly mocking christian division and justifying a 500 year old error-filled subjective revolution with a fictional label of CHRISTENDOM 2.0!
get real... this is the product of the atheistic reformers who turned God into a book and allowed each person to make his or her own truth by reading it
this is shameful... plain and simple
Good dialog! Am I the only who would like to see Doug Wilson and Mark Driscoll have a dialog?!
Thank you Mr. White and Mr. Wilson for the solid food that you give us sheep. I pray that God gives you brothers more strength and boldness for these times we are about to go into. 👊
Thanks again pastors.
While I disagree with these guys on a few issues, I enjoy these sweater vest discussions. It reminds me of the two off centered uncles at a family gathering that everyone finds a hoot to listen to.
Jimmy white and Dougy Wilson what a combination.😅
Good interview. I can't see what else to do except accurately apply the doctrine of the lesser magistrate, and it seems Beza had the best clarity and conciseness on that. Unless the Lord sends widespread revival, the logical extreme of it will produce persecution. And that will last as long as the Lord wants it to. But ya still gotta plod forward and be a light and witness. Tares can ignore it. Wheat can't. The government will either be the government and punish evil and reward good, or it won't, and then suffer the promised consequences. Since all laws address morality to one degree or the other, the only question is: which morality? If revival occurs to a degree wherein government consults with the church related to what is and is not moral (per God's Word), then it's the church's job to actually be biblical. The problems of the past when that occured was a failure of God's people - that is, they weren't biblical. If the Lord grants opportunity again on that topic of teaching the nations, as it were, then being biblical will be paramount, as it always has been. Either way, still gotta plod forward and tell the 'Herods' no, if necessary, and continue to preach in the 'Temple' like Peter and the guys. That's just how it is. But, Jesus is faithful. The disposition of powers and principalities are His prerogative alone.
What a weak libertarian position. This is exactly how we got into the current position of legalized abortion and transgender operations for kids. Christians who merely screech in the public square but don't have the backbone to use public power. Despite the fact that all the righteous kings of Israel are the ones who tore down pagan groves and built up the temple. Libertarianism is incompatible with Christianity.
@possumhunter1179....none of the apostles advocated establishing a Roman christian state, in fact their mission work makes it clear the affairs of the church consumed all their time. I think your idea of marriage between church and state is not only unbiblical (the reformers really didn't get this part right), but it has a history of bearing extremely bad fruit.....christian State after christian state have persecuted true believers and made martyrs and they have all failed in history without exception. Why? Because Jesus's kingdom is not of this world and His followers have the opposite mandates that earthly kingdoms have.....The State is put there by God to punish evil doers, to take vengeance....while Christians are given the mandate to show mercy to their enemies and never avenge themselves...these two kingdoms are literally in opposition to one another, you cannot serve them both in harmony, it is not possible. Any attempts to marry these two kingdoms ends in what we see over and over again in history.... persecutions, corruptions and martyrdom for the children of God. The kingdom of God cannot be monopolized, or manipulated by mankind, it is a kingdom that spreads all over the globe without the State's means and in fact, in spite of the State's attempts to regulate it. We don't need earthly kingdoms regulating what they suppose is God's kingdom, they don't have that mandate at all and in fact any attempts to do so only destroys those states.
@@christianmama2441 You still have to deal with Daniel's friends not bowing in Shinar, Daniel praying in plain sight in spite-of and because of the King's mandate, Jesus teaching to pay to God's what's God's (leaving it obvious that Caesar doesn't have claim on what belongs to God), Jesus telling Pilot that Pilot has no authority over Him because He alone has all authority to lay down his life and take it up again, Peter and the guys preaching in the Temple even after the Sanhedrin told them not to, and Paul telling multiple high authorities (Roman and otherwise) what they owed their Maker. All this, and not to mention that Jonah prophesied knowing full well that the King of Nineveh would mandate an insincere repentance, and that after folks obeyed him, the Lord mercifully relented from wrath to them anyway- because He's always merciful, and it's all about His mercy - It's not about us. Never has been. And Jesus said He's giving this generation the Sign of Jonah - and that's all they're getting. And it's enough. And He said that if we love Him, we'll keep His commandments.
I'm not advocating some amalgamation of church and state. But the Word of God is clear on the church's mandate to be ready give an answer for the hope within, and to disciple the nations. Did Jonah disciple Nineveh, or Daniel disciple Nebuchadnezzar or Darius? Or did Paul disciple Felix? What did our Lord teach Pilot?
Christ is King. We either believe Him when He says He has all authority in heaven and earth, or we doubt Him. It is always a matter of faith, and a matter of believing that every word of the Bible is absolutely true.
In the final analysis, humans are made Imago Dei, and all human beings (regardless of government position) are required to give honor to whom honor is due. The degree and type of honor the magistrate owes the people is to punish evil and reward good. The reason that's significant is because it's not about them honoring humans so much as it's about them honoring the One in Whose Image humans are made. It's always about Christ's honor. But, to whom has the Lord given the job of teaching these magistrates what is objectively good and what is objectively evil? When they ask, "By what authority do you say this or do that? - what's the answer?" The answer is Jesus. He has all authority. And that's the answer and hope we're supposed to be ready to give. Because in this world, it's trouble. Some magistrate will want you to give him honor that's not due to him. He will ask you to pay to him what belongs to God. And that's idolatry. Ascribing any of God's attributes to any creature or created thing - of any sort - is idolatry.
Humans don't know what they think they know. And humans don't owe humans any degree of worship. Zero. Nada. Zilch.
The church's job is to proclaim Christ's Kingdom until He comes. Magistrates must fear the Lord, and we're required to pray that they would, and tell them why they should, even so. John Knox certainly had no problem saying that to a queen or two. Seems to me that he was following some pretty solid biblical examples when he did, to boot.
These two brothers are heroes and an ongoing blessing to me. And I sure wish the G3 guys would shut up for a minute and listen to this discussion and LEARN something! It wouldn’t hurt if they also actually engaged the apparently patient efforts and clarifications which those they suddenly oppose have been trying to offer.
In all fairness I wish all of the younger guys, including Webbon, AD, William Wolfe, and Jon Harris, would all take a page out of these brothers handbook. Theirs, as well as relationships/friendships and unity we saw with R.C. Sproul and John MacArthur, Ligonier & Masters/Grace to You, should be spread abroad amongst the brothern. I also love how Voddie and Tim Ascol approach this topic as well. In my opinion, the younger guys have only caused more confusion due to social media pride and cross communication. Instead of trying to read between lines on social media platforms, they need to pick up the phone and talk to one another, or make time to meet one another. When podcasts becomes the Christians business/livelihood, folding to worldly tactics are inevitable.
@@tinamariejohnson7520 Agreed. Watching them fight on Twitter with little cartoons gets old too. They say men who play video games are weak (which I don’t), yet they spend all day scrolling through social media.
G3 are faithful brothers
Listen, BIG things are happening. The Universe is 26.7 billion years old. We have literally obtained new heavens, from the JAMES webb telescope. As in James the Just, brother of Jesus, on the world wide web, which is the white throne that is neither in heaven nor on earth. The Kingdom is here! The first 13.7 billion year heavens were found by the Lambda, as in Christ is called the Lamb. The age of Jesus is completely done, and the age of his brother James the Just, "For whose sake heaven and earth came into existence," in the Gospel of Thomas is here. His church will simply be the fellowship of those who live their lives before the throne, that is to say, it focuses on being a good person. While many fall away from Christianity or are not Christian, that's all a matter of fact and theory, what we mentally believe. We do not fall away from what is important. From the refinement of ourselves from sin, or from loving one another. Everyone is judged by works. So it is not so much a new religion, as it is a new fellowship that looks at everything before it as the collective heritage of our past. Make no mistake, all of the symbols are clear. I am moved by the spirit to make videos about this, and it will happen soon.
Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world.”
There’s a difference between the words of and in. Keep reading this and you’ll get it
Very helpful conversation
The timing of that echo was provident 😄
The book looks amazing. Can't wait!
Two of my favorite Christian apologists.
Excited to read this book
Same here 😊
Please keep these dialogues going...
I've been paying attention to these conversations for the past 3 or 4 days. It's been a big topic and this is my favorite explanation yet.
Doug, I'd love to do an Against Nice podcast on this subject with you. But in the interim, I would retort that the neutral public square hasn't failed. Christians who have determined to be neutral in the public square is the issue. So much more. But what I'm hearing of the book looks great.
‘Jesus is LORD and there is no other’ that hits hard
Two of the best minds in Christianity, James White and Douglas Wilson! Thank you.
It can work! I'm a premil dispensationalist. I look around and see where things are going. I ask myself this, if Jesus raptures the Church in 2073 how many Americans under 50 will he take? Yeah, I'm on board. We can't wait even 50 years let alone centuries. I'll never be a Calvinist and I'll never be postmil but I'm on board with restoring America. I'm a Christian Nationalist.
And I'm going to do my darnedest to bring my whole SBC with me. All I ask is that Doug an James not be too disappointed when Jesus shows up prematurely.
We may get a lot of insight on this topic from observing how christianization plays out in nations where christianity is still relatively new.
Things end sometimes well and often poorly whether Christ is at the center or not.
53:00 pefect time for that echo
These talks are helping to clarify my thinking. Thank you Sir. I’m still interested to learn how this would affect pseudo Christian denominations such as JW and Mormon’s. Also, how would it affect Catholicism? Would the government embrace a particular interpretation of the Apostle’s Creed in terms of which denominations are a part of the National identity? I’m deeply interested to learn more, but since my questions haven’t been answered here I am forced to read the book…
Just pre-ordered on Amazon
How are you converting a full book from pdf to mp3/audio, James?
11:36 is he seriously claiming Christendom was “a thing” in America in the 19th century because the Supreme Court “determined we were a Christian nation”? That’s absurd. And pathetically caesaropapist.
Low key flex... I listened to it on a 40 mile bike ride 😅
No matter your eschatology we should be ready for Christ to come back. None of them have a date on when things are going to come back so how do some point to Him coming sooner or later?
At around 48 min. in, Doug lays out how We are 'the early Church' (one day being confused with Them; seeming/being early in The KINGdom expansion); Amen. What does this mean for Eph. 4?; "HE Gave Gifts to Men, first.., then..." right now, as "We are immature". So, MacArthur and his followers will hate this.. a Foundation is only Laid Once (i am a SAPPER; this is True), but Eph. 4 actually says when and why We have These Gifts (knowing we like to place things in the past or future only, not in the present to deal with). i would Love to hear a balanced presentation from Holy Scripture, in context. A Brother In CHRIST Who Is Optimistic because You see the Victory of CHRIST Over All Things (Ps.110; 1st Cor.15), here in time and space! Grace, Peace, n LOVE to all the Elect In CHRIST, to the Praise of HIS Glorious ____. Alone!-)
Brilliant! In the UK our most robust discussions by “leaders”’are how long should be stay closed, is God a he or a she and how much should we invest in Blackrock/ Vanguard 🤡🤡🤡🤡
I don’t even know how a Calvinist can argue for a true “Christendom”, insofar as it would be a truly Christian political entity. Are you saying that “Christian nationalists” would legislate through the action of the Holy Spirit upon them? Do you really believe that there could truly be a “Christian Nation” that doesn’t have Christ himself as its ruler? I thought we were totally depraved. Please explain this.
Advocating for policies that align with Christian values is one thing. People of many different religions and sects of Christianity or even atheists can agree with this. But what you’re talking about is something entirely different.
which application does James White use to make PDFs into MP3. Does anyone know? 3:09
Read the debate between Roger Williams and John Cotton.
Amen to the Church not being another lobbying group!
Thanks brethren
Unless I missed something during the course of this one hour interview, the fate of infidels and heretics in this new version of Christendom is a merely a detail to figure out when we get there. We live in a time when one witnesses political rallies featuring images of the cross, the 45th president, and automatic weapons. Such a time demands clarity in these themes.
lol that sounds like something I’d like sorted out ahead of time, especially considering the fact that I’m not a Calvinist and may have my head cut off for it if some of these guys have their way. My gay uncle is in big trouble too.
Fates of infidels and heretics are already being decided by our current religious government.
Love that statement, “there is no neutral public square.”
love to chat with James and Doug, if you 2 are ever in north georgia...drop by...I own a motel in chatsworth...stay here with me and we shall move forward in scripture together...I AM the last...and there is no other
If Christianity were meant to be a governing religion, then why was this never foretold in the scriptures? And furthermore, why were no instructions presented by the apostles regarding doctrine and practice when Christianity would finally become a state religion? It looks to me as if the quandary is trying to use the scriptures to deal with something that was never addressed in the first place. What happened as a result is that a number of kings, bishops, and reformers would then read their own ideas back into the Bible to impose their authoritarianism as the will of God over the masses. What am I missing here?
Nothing. There is no such thing as a righteous government until the Messiah rules on earth. Oh and by the way, in order for that to happen, ALL the worlds militaries need to be destroyed, even Americas.
That religion is man-made?
Daniel 7:13,14,18,22,27
What is that black cylinder with undulating violet light (behind Dr W) doing?
Flux capacitating, I believe
@@gustingdis no, it's function is to attract nerds.
It's a toy replica of the warp core engine on the Enterprise D starship from Star Trek the next generation.
@@Eric19877 I was pretty close. 😂
@@thechasethompson Definitely closer than bug zapper 😂.
Thank you, this was helpful.
‘The Anabaptists are running naked through Safeway again!’ 😅 LOL 😂
What would be needed from the ruling politicians in America is them following Psalm 101 from the heart.
This talk reminds me of socialists telling everyone that true communism has not been practiced because they were not ready for "prime time".
That’s exactly what it is. “Give US the power, we know exactly what to do with it”
@@Bibleguy89-uu3nrI don’t get this take at all. Christendom 1.0 was good. Communism was never good. How is that even remotely comparable? You have to be incredibly brainwashed by secularists (popular culture) and their propaganda about “the dark ages» to even make that connection. Can Christendom 1.0 be improved upon? Of course! Was it inherently bad like atheistic communism? Of course not.
This was really good!
SOLI DEO GLORIA!
I want to see that videoof James preaching in Wittenburg
Perhaps if we Christians were white hot focused on fulfilling Matthew 28 making disciples by spreading the gospel and teaching them all that Jesus commanded, America's deprave culture would be reformed and the enmass deprave minds and its bad fruit would be replaced with God honoring conduct and law abiding citizens. Blessed is the nation whose God is the Lord.
But, the great commission is about power and world domination, remember?
But there will always be more unbelievers and if Christians stay out of politics…who will be making laws? Oh…here we are.
@@Bibleguy89-uu3nryou have missed the whole thing.
@@Whatisthematterwithyoupeople I was being sarcastic.
enjoyed this presentation......MORE
It's terribly difficult to believe that this isn't the time immediately prior to the major onset of the biblically revealed conditions describing the eschaton. Postmillennialism appears to be a drawn out utopian dreamscape whose theology may be best left between 1880 and 1930. Marana'ta!
And I'm sure people felt that way when this was happening in Jerusalem and again in North Africa. This isn't the first time that a historical center of christian influence has started waning, and I don't think it will be the last, but God has always preserved his church and made it stronger.
Revelation 13:3 points to the conversion of Constantine and Rome but Beastliness in various forms continued. Eventually it will be defeated (Rev 19).
12:19 “The Reformation happened while Christendom was still an ongoing thing.” Yes, and after the Reformation happened, Christendom was no longer an ongoing thing.
Regarding some of James' concerns about working out the details, it's important to understand that God uses means to achieve his ends. We see that from Creation until Christ and we shouldn't expect anything different from Christ until the end of this world. Will there come a time when there will be greater cohesion in the body of Christ making "Christendom" more achievable? Maybe, but we still must live today and living today without a plan, without a compass, and without a star to follow is foolishness. Moreover, it's a foolishness Satan has manipulated the modern church into accepting and even embracing (through escapist eschatology, among other things). It's not our prerogative to wait for Christ to magically turn a majority of hearts to him before we start **being** Christian. We are called, literally, to be the means through which that gradual change occurs throughout history. And it's not the evil "Theocracy" the world screams about; it's just a matter of being faithful Christians WHILE Christ works all things out. Like all of history, we are part of the means to God's ends and our mission is to simply **be** Christian. God gives new hearts to people and we act like people with new hearts! We don't change hearts, we live as heart-changed people. God then uses his new-hearted people to work throughout the world like leaven.
In the end, the Christian has only one fundamental decision to make: will I act as a Christ follower or will I act as an anti-Christ. Both necessarily require certain behaviors and goals. If Christians are to act Christianly, as prescribed in Scripture, they can't help but bring about a better and better Christendom, in the exact same way that people acting as anti-Christs will necessarily bring about a darker and darker kingdom of Satan. There will certainly be mistakes made along the way--we are all fallen creatures and citizens of both kingdoms are mixed in many ways--but that's not an excuse to NOT be Christian. If Christians allow themselves to buy into escapist eschatology and doom and gloom while constantly apologizing for and being crippled by mistakes made either today or in centuries past, they will lose in their generations, because their enemy will not stop in their mission when they get caught out.
The biggest problem with Christianity today is that Christians are unwilling to act Christianly for fear of offending, being embarrassed, or being attacked. While there are some tricky bits and there is some flexibility here and there, being Christian really isn't that mysterious; it's just that it can be dangerous in a world set against you and it certainly doesn't jive with the so-called first world lifestyles many have grown accustomed to. I've said for over a decade now that the next Reformation or whatever you want to call it, may very well come out of Russia or China or Africa or South America, where Christians know what it means to suffer for their faith and they better recognize **and** call out Light and Dark for what they are. Whatever happens though, I just want to be able to say that I sincerely and faithfully tried to be Christian--to fight a good fight. I think that's what all Christians should strive for, and as more and more Christians do this we will see more and more change, not due to our use of force but due to God's amazing grace. We will one day see our part in the larger movement.
any church history book recommendations for the munster "insanity" that was referenced in this video?
What is the date (approximately) that they claim separates Christendom 1.0 and 2.0?
Imagine people like Steven Anderson will come to power in Christendom 2.0
Preferable to the insanity we have now.
Ok random non-important question is How did he get a good program to convert PDF to audio?
Also, of your innumerable books, what is the best compendium of your (Doug's) views?
Such a wonderful conversation my question how do you convert pdf to mp3?
Anyone know what program James White uses to listen to books in PDF form?
Just ordered the box mere Christendom ☺️
Sehr gut!
I feel like Dr White's beard would be how I imagined Paul of scriptures beard was lol.
Wonderful
How do you convert a pdf to mp3?? 😮🤷♂️
ruclips.net/video/bmU-sod-IVE/видео.html
Here you go
@@HesDylan the link won’t come through 🤷♂️
does anyone know where I can find a book with the persecution of Baptist who James White is referring to? I am a southern Baptist and I’m always interested in the perception among Christians. How mean and intolerant Baptist are, but we are the ones that seem to be thrown down in the holes, and have tongue clips attached to our mouths and thrown in fires.
Where do I sign up?
He never really answered how to keep the government from religious persecution. Yes, I agree that the state's laws must be governed by Christ, but who gets to decide what counts as a denominational difference and an intolerable heresy? Baptists are included, but Mormons are not. What about Catholics? Even Doug and James disagree about their salvation. Even if those lines are drawn clearly, is it illegal to be a Mormon or just discouraged? These aren't details to work out later, they're questions to answer before a massive group of evangelicals (myself included) would even consider signing on.
Would we let a Mormon in office? If not, what about a Catholic? I have a feeling Doug and James would disagree with each other because Doug thinks Catholics are (or can be) genuine Christians and James doesn't.
@@zachdavenport8509 It's an obvious hole in Doug's argument. Without a centralized federal authority on religion, it's impossible to hold together a "Mere Christendom" on a political level. Catholics, Protestants, Mormons and even Muslims all generally agree on marriage between one man and one woman, the current gender identity crisis, and moral issues like porn, etc. However, on a political level, it is unfeasible.
Most american evangelicals are too individualistic or pietistic to care about the common good and politics, sadly. They prefer to retreat to an intense yet private faith....
But Doug has explained this elsewhere. Nicean Trinitarianism should be codified into law. Now this wouldn't mean all other groups would be persecuted. But they wouldn't be supported by the state.
@@felixguerrero6062 Not in England. The Anglican church is a taxpayer funded, state church which is supported by law. There are 4 seats in the House of Lords reserved for Anglican bishops, which makes England and Iran the only nations where clerics are guaranteed seats in government.
However, religion is still dying in England despite the government support. Less than 10% of British people actually attend Anglican services on a Sunday aside from Easter. State theocracy might solve some of our problems but not the root problem: faithlessness.
@@mosesking2923
The Anglican Church is not tax funded. (Of course there is state funding for historical buildings, and a handful of other things, but the Anglican churches are primarily funded by the laity).
Also do you know many Lords Spirituals there used to be in the House of Lords?
ENGLAND wouldn't even existed without Christianity-----it is the Church that created the national identity and polity in the first place, you goon. 🤦♂️
lol, when was this recorded.
"Jakobus Weiß" :D Your German pronunciatuon was quite good
Based upon the logic of the following points, might the argument be made that in the United States of American, Pastor Wilson's "Christendom 2.0" already exists to some degree?
1. Pastor Wilson at 16:13-28: "... I believe there has to be a separation of church and state because the church and state are separate institutions. They're separate governments, and I think that they need to be kept distinct and not blurred."
Response: Does not the separation of church and state already exist in the United States of America?
2. Commonly referred to as the Declaration of Independence, the unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America adopted on July 4, 1776 states: "Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed ..."
Response: The USA is a constitutional republic whose elected officials represent "the consent of the governed." Unless Pastor Wilson is (A) is arguing for abolishing this form of government and (B) replacing it with something different, then (C) wouldn't the present model dating back to 1789 be compatible with his concept of "Christendom 2.0"?
3. Amendment I to the Unites States Constitution states: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."
Response: Since: (A) the US Constitution's First Amendment guarantees the freedom of religion and (B) presumably Pastor Wilson is not arguing for abolishing this First Amendment right, then (C) isn't freedom of religion in the USA compatible with Pastor Wilson's "Christendom 2.0"?
4. Therefore, if Pastor Wilson is in total agreement that the present form of government based upon the US Constitution is compatible with "Christendom 2.0", then what might constitute the latter's development and progress?
Possibly the following?
Making common cause with:
A. Fellow Protestant Christians in a united effort to achieve a desired common good in law through the consent of the governed, i.e. voting.
B. Non-Protestants, i.e., Muslims, Jews, Catholics, etc. who (1) share similar moral values and (2) will participate in civic action, i.e., voting, to achieve a similar desired common good in law.
Wilson is in favor of the 1st amendment which prohibits a national church of the USA. That doesn’t prohibit state churches for each individual state. When the USA was founded, 9 of the 13 states had tax payer funded State churches. This is the model which imitates the Holy Roman Empire’s Augsburg treaty which allowed Germany princes to decide the religion of each principality.
@@mosesking2923 1. "That doesn’t prohibit state churches for each individual state."
Response: Wouldn't that require an overwhelming majority vote to establish a particular state church, perhaps a 2/3 vote? How could that even begin to be implemented without a constitutional convention that the US Constitution provides for? It takes 34 states to call for the convention and 38 states to ratify any amendments it proposes. At the present moment, a constitutional convention appears unlikely, but if the US continues to unravel, perhaps 34 states eventually might call for one.
2. "When the USA was founded, 9 of the 13 states had tax payer funded State churches."
Response: My New England ancestors were forcibly taxed to support and attend the established Congregational Church in the Massachusetts Bay Colony which was Calvinist. After the US war for independence and ratification of the US Constitution's First Amendment granting freedom of religion, my NE ancestors migrated to what became the state of Maine, and in the process abandoned their attendance at Calvinist churches. I respect the right of anyone to attend whatever church they desire in accordance with the dictates of their conscience.
3. "This is the model which imitates the Holy Roman Empire’s Augsburg treaty which allowed Germany princes to decide the religion of each principality."
Response:
A. This is the model that followed upon the situation of Fritz Urbe, an Anabaptist, who was imprisoned in the dungeon of Wartburg Castle from 1541 until his death in 1548. Urbe resided in a Lutheran territory under Martin Luther's discipline and he was severely punished for the crime of refusing to baptize his children after Urbe had read Luther's translation of the German New Testament. Dr. White refers to Fritz Urbe in this video.
B. Do you want a prince or an elected assembly to decide what shall be the penalties for non-compliance with the official state church, including the refusal to attend and to pay church taxes?
@@annakimborahpa
1. The constitution of the US already allows for state churches, so no constitutional convention is needed. New Hampshire kept its establishment until 1817; Connecticut kept its establishment until 1818; and Massachusetts did not abandon its state support for Congregationalism until 1833. All it would take is a state legislature to approve a state church with a signature from the governor.
2. All taxpayers are forced to fund operations they don’t like. Liberals had to fund Trump’s wall and conservatives have to fund planned parenthood. Why are you whining about your ancestors? Nobody gets a free pass from taxation.
3. Fritz Erbe was punished because he disobeyed the authorities of where he lived. Romans 13 is clear: Christians must obey their government officials. If Fritz didn’t like the rules, he should have moved to an Anabaptist state. Instead, he decided to stay in a Lutheran state and disobey the authorities so he got what was coming to him. The rules of noncompliance (not paying taxes) are set by the authorities. Read Matt 22. “Render to Caesar” nobody gets an exemption from paying taxes, regardless of where they are going.
@@mosesking2923
1. I'm happy for the choices my New England ancestors made after they received freedom of religion under the US Constitution.
2. If it is as simple as all that in establishing a state church in the US, well then best wishes. I assume that a majority of citizens would have to elect a state legislature to designate a particular church which represents their interests before getting a governor's signature.
3. Presently are there any states in that position? Are there any particular churches that have the sway to get a legislature to select them as a state church?
4. How about Pastor Wilson's Christ Church that is a member of the Communion of Reformed Evangelical Churches which holds to the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith whose Chapter 26, Article 4 states: "The Pope of Roman Catholicism cannot in any sense be head of the church; rather, he is the antichrist, the man of lawlessness, and the son of destruction, who exalts himself in the church against Christ and all that is called God. The Lord will destroy him with the brightness of his coming" (alluding to 2 Thessalonians 2:2-9)?
[Translation courtesy of Founders Ministries]
5. Are you interested in a state church who teaches that the Pope, the Catholic Bishop of Rome, is the Antichrist? I know that the Calvinist Presbyterian state Church of Scotland teaches this.
No it would require significant change, something like the constitution of Poland. Where Jesus Christ is the officially declared the King. But even further, where Nicean Trinitarian Christianity is codified in law...
It's a massive departure from the classic liberalism of the founding fathers...which isn't a bad thing.
Is there someplace from which I can download the text of the Holy Trinity decision?
I don't know that I can post a link, but a Google for "holy trinity v. united states" will find it in the first few hits.
@@danbrown586 Thanks. I found a few where you had to be a member of some organization or the other. Will keep looking.
@@danbrown586 Thx.
Moses on implementing Christendom 2.0: “If you say in your heart, ‘These nations are greater than I. How can I dispossess them?’ you shall not be afraid of them but you shall remember what the Lord your God did to Pharaoh and to all Egypt, the great trials that your eyes saw, the signs, the wonders, the mighty hand, and the outstretched arm, by which the Lord your God brought you out. So will the Lord your God do to all the peoples of whom you are afraid. Moreover, the Lord your God will send hornets among them, until those who are left and hide themselves from you are destroyed. You shall not be in dread of them, for the Lord your God is in your midst, a great and awesome God. The Lord your God will clear away these nations before you little by little. You may not make an end of them at once, lest the wild beasts grow too numerous for you. But the Lord your God will give them over to you and throw them into great confusion, until they are destroyed. And he will give their kings into your hand, and you shall make their name perish from under heaven. No one shall be able to stand against you until you have destroyed them." -- Dt 7:17-24
A promise to national Israel has nothing to do with modern day Christianity. Taking verses out of context doesn't help.
@@mosesking2923 Hehehehe ...that never crossed my mind. But it is the formula for discipling the nations per the Great Commission -- i.e. Christendom -- in the face of what looks like impossible odds.
Don't be afraid, remember all God has done in the past, don't be surprised when it doesn't happen all at once because the task is bigger than you imagine and you're not ready yet, God will accomplish what he has commissioned us to do, our enemies are not invincible ... rather the internal contradictions and lies by which they rule will be turned into confusion in the face of the gospel and be their downfall until they're destroyed, and future generations will forget their names even as they wonder how anyone could have fallen for such apparent and obvious nonsense.
Thus saith Moses ...
No better than last time. Sinful people do sinful stuff and ruin everything no matter what system we choose. Obviously some are less horrible than others, but in the end, we always mess everything up.
Which is the least horrible?
@@austinrothjr secular Scandinavia seems the least horrible to me!
But I think the point is that religion has not been the solution anywhere, Christianity hasn’t prevented corruption and war and abuse and rape in any country
@@aallen5256 National Christianity does prevent these things. Look at the Roman Empire under Constantine. For the first time in history, rape was recognized as a crime under Constantine. Not to mention the end of the gladiator games. The end of infanticide and "exposing" babies. The key is theocracy. Religion needs to be combined with state.
@@mosesking2923 Nationalised religion absolutely doesn’t prevent any of those things. The history of Europe is conclusive!! Making something a crime doesn’t mean it stopped happening by any means!!
@@mosesking2923 Catholics and Protestants tend to have a rose-colored view of theocracy because their religions called the shots throughout European history. The Catholic and Protestant monarchies were just as oppressive as Roman emperors. Ppl were often coerced to accept them with the threat of being killed, imprisoned, beaten, or stripped of their properties and worship facilities.
do you have an educated/catechized-enough populace to run your ideal state? avoiding sacralism sounds like an ideal. at some level, the "state/caesar/magistrate" will have to rule according to some kind of ethical basis, influenced either by your preferred denomination or at worst some anti-God worldview.