My watches from Ali have taken no longer than 2 weeks to arrive here in England , the fit , finish and accuracy have been way better than the higher end Seiko’s I own at a fraction of the cost, they are a no brainer for me..
Totally agree. Ordered 2 from San Martin that just came in. Took about a week. Amazing finishing. My Seiko turtle is 6 months old and rotor is sticking now. We’ll see how these San Martin watches hold up
You can only lose $200 on $200 watch, but why people think about monetary value. You personally see every items value for yourself like homage vs real.
Lots of good points, but given Seikos high level of QC issues at premium price, I suspect point 2 is less valid. Point 5 is just incorrect, if you think Seiko doesn’t have scale that allows it to reduce costs across its group, but still it produces watches with cheap clasps, hollow end links and unbranded crowns and buckles. Great vid
I think his points for 2 and 5 are still valid because there's a degree of severity with both that's still relevant. Regarding Point 2, Seiko does have QC issues but they're mostly related to alignment, while QC issues for cheap homages from AE often have stuff like dirty under the crystal or sharp edges which are far more egregious. And because of Point 1, getting them fixed is a lot harder. Regarding Point 5, Seiko does have a lot of scale but their scale is absolutely dwarfed by the factories that produce homages and other AE watches.
I agree with all the points, however I have the steeldive Willard homage, and was thinking about buying the real deal, but decided not to, because I feel like the Steeldive is a better watch, no, not better value, actually better (for me), here's why (talking about the blue version): -SD has a signed crown, seiko doesn't (this still baffles me when it comes to a watch for 1000 USD+) -SD has lumed ceramic bezel, seiko has aluminium - both looks and functionality, first thing I scratch is always the ezel -SD has framed date, seiko doesn't -SD has better lume, this watch has one of the best lumes in my collection while it's one of the cheapest, it lights up like a christmas tree -the Seiko I was looking at was misaligned (I know, shocker), the SD had no QC issues - this is obviously anecdotal, but I have heard of misaligned seiko bezels in the past from other people as well -and my personal opinions, i like the SD dial color more; I don't like the golden text and hand on the seiko, the bezel looks better on the SD obviously Seiko is the creator of the design, and has the history, but if I didn't know the brands, and both watch cost the same, I'd definitely buy the SD, even if I knew the brands, I'd probably buy the SD. Obviously noone expect Seiko to make the same watch for 100 dollars, but they have to keep up, you cannot (IMO) release a watch for 1000+ dollars without a signed crown, comeon seiko. (the Seiko has better caseback, hand finishing, strap/bracelet, movement, case finishing is pretty much the same)
Aren't higher end Seiko's made in Japan? So you need to factor in that as well. They need to pay production/wages relative to Japan, which is one of the most expensive countries in the world. That said, I know what you mean - they need to at least get it right.
Great points all round I get what dave is saying about originality and designs but the quality of some seikos is so poor these days I really don't think they can justify the costs I have a steel dive tuna and it's one of my favourites and in my opinion better looking than the seiko ( mine has an orange dial and lume you can see from space!) That said its not an original probably why I have so many vostok watches coz they are "real"
@@67spot I have a number of Seikos and have also bought a couple Aliexpress watches. The finishing and quality of the Seikos is definitely better if you look beyond just the raw specs. People get so hot and bothered about signed crown, sapphire crystal, ceramic bezels, etc. But I don't know, it's all just groupthink among watch collectors that makes some of these minor differences up to be such a big deal. I've never been bothered by the lack of signed crown. Yeah, Sapphire is nice, but I've never had problems with hardlux or acrylic. Each has a place. Yes, Seiko has some inconsistent quality control, mainly just around bezel alignment, which they should sort out. But so do many manufacturers. I have a Vostok as well. I enjoy wearing it at times, and it's definitely a good bargain for what you get. But again, the level of finishing and timekeeping on an Amphibia is nowhere near the average Seiko. But it's more than good enough for a $70 automatic watch. I think you missed Dave point about the COSTS Seiko incurs that the Chinese companies don't have to. It's not just be about originality of designs but the COSTS of design work, tooling, marketing, etc. The Chinese companies are free riding on these investments, which is why they can undercut Seiko on price so much.
@@catlike1 @NERV OUS I think most of seiko watches are made in Taiwan these days, not Japan, or definitely part of the process is outside Japan. Noone's arguing Seikos should be 100 bucks, but I have for example a Tissot PR80 that I boght for 220 dollars + import fees with sapphire, signed crown, and a swiss movement with 80 hours of power reserve, with a nicely decorated rotor. As for the crown, I guess everyone has something they want on a watch, I even buy signed crowns for my Vostoks to swap them out :D, I just really hate the plain crown, to me it's more importan than sapphire, or even the movement, but different folks different strokes. Again, I'm not saying they should be 100 bucks, but to buy that watch for that price, you REALLY have to apreciate the history of the model.
I agree with most of your points - however, doesn't mean that large brands aren't over charging for their products. It's like any premium brand , your paying for the name.....
That’s almost universally true, for everything. And I wouldn’t say it’s a bad thing either. Building a brand name and products is monumental work and cost, actually much, much more than discussed in this video. For me, a mechanical wristwatch is not like a toaster. I couldn’t care less what brand or history or original design my toaster is, but for my watches, that’s actually top priority, specs vs price doesn’t really matter to me. Most people won’t admit what I just said, but that’s actually the reason Seiko, Rolex and other strong brands with strong designs sell like hotcakes no matter what hobbyists say about them.
To be honest if it weren't for Aliexpress homages and finding out about them via RUclipsrs I am not sure if I would be a watch enthusiast, beginner collector or watch many RUclips watch videos, I think I would be down to 1-2 watch purchases a year and largely be priced out of most watches and brands - including Seiko with their price increases.
Yeah. Homages give us an opportunity to collect and enjoy watches that are affordable. I have a few myself. Most of the time if a homage watch breaks, I can just order parts online and fix it myself comfortably
I was wary about AliExpress and Chinese brands initially. Now I can't stop buying. No thanks also to Seiko increasing its prices across the board, while Rolexes and Omegas are out of my range.
Homage watches are great. I don't care if they don't have the history or prestige when they cost way less. You get great specs with brands like San Martin, Steinhart, and Squale. I speak from experience as I've owned all of those brands. I've since moved on to Grand Seiko and Tudor but those watches were great bang for the buck.
IT is a tough one! Seiko $400 for hardlex and a bezel that never alignes. Steeldive $100 for sapphire and a bezel that alignes perfectly. Maybe Seiko should offer a little bit more for the extra $300?
This guy above is obsessed with that prospex question in other comments. I have the Padi turtle. Its nice but not great. Its bezel doesnt line up good and still doesnt have sapphire. The bracelet isnt the best either so its on a silicone band now. So if you think prospex is amazing for the money it aint so its not much better than a 5 . Its a $500 watch with no sapphire, missaligned bezel and average bracelet. It looks good and runs fine. Im not diving 200 meters anytime soon. So a cheaper version that i can swim or wash my hands with does the job. What prospex do you have watch nerd?
@@BeeRumblin13 yeah buddy not sure what the issue is; I’m curious if their experience is first hand. You’d be surprised how many ppl are completely willing to talk trash based on zero personal experience - the fast majority. and like you, so eager to tell me. Regardless i’m not sure why you have to be a stalker then d!ck about it?
I was especially pleased with the inscription on the clothes in Russian))).. it says scuba diver dude. The first word that is written in orange has an interesting origin: this is an abbreviation of a whole phrase that completely sounds like "a person who respects the great American culture")))). The phrase and the term educated from it were popular in the USSR in the 60s among informals who had a negative attitude to the Soviet system. later, the word simply began to denote a young male person. By the way, even in Russia, not everyone knows this fact.Greetings to all from Russia
I get everything you're saying but I really wish they started offering Saphire in more watches. Take the microbrand momentum for instance. They offer saphire for a very reasonable cost and will upgrade you watch to saphire for a VERY reasonable cost if you send it in for service. I honestly think Saphire may not be as expensive as some watch companies would have us think. And they reserve it as a reason to jack the prices up like phone companies do when you want extra storage in your phone. upgrading storage from 256gb to 512gb is pennies on the dollar to them in comparison to the extra 200 bucks they'll charge you for the memory upgrade.
Interesting topic. Can’t say I agree with you on most of your negative aspects of AliExpress watches. My experience has been Positive with the quality, the service (even when things don’t go as planned), the shipping and the value. I do agree that with some watch brands, paying more gets you a higher level of finishing and quicker shipping. For me it’s about what I value for each watch I decide to purchase, sometimes I value what Seiko or Zelos give me, and sometimes I value what Steeldive or Pagani give me. I don’t care if a watch is made in China or is Swiss made, I do care about the value I expect I am paying for in the watch. So in the end, I think for the most part, AliExpress watches provide me exactly the value I think they do. But an interesting topic to get the discussions going.
Hallo. I own two STEEL DIVE watches. To address your points: 1) Delivery to canada 2-3 weeks 2) No quality issues that you are talking about (at least in the watches that I received) 3) In terms of design it is the same, I agree, but certain elaments are done better that in the original watch. Ex, saphire christal, luminous bezel - you do not get it in original SEIKO Captain Willard 4) Many SWISS companies are making homages of their well-known SWISS competitors, but the price of those is much higher than of STEEL DIVE watches . 5) I agree with this point, but that what good purchase is all about. The economies of scale are being passed to the clients. You buy the same watch for a much better price without compromising the quality. NH35 is very good, reliable mechanism and qualitywise is totally comparable to ETA 2824-2 or SW200...
I have a Steeldive Willard. I like the watch a lot and feel like I got a good deal compared to the Seiko re-issue. When it comes to value, it actually flows both ways. Yes, Chinese manufactures benefit from design and marketing expenses paid by major brands. But Swiss and Japanese brands are able to increase their profits because they can source cases cheap from China, because Chinese manufacturers have made huge investments in their production facilities. I got the Steeldive without the logo on the dial, because who cares about brand name recognition and marketing expenses if you are taking a PBR upriver into Cambodia.
I personally think the Steeldive logo is bad, as is that hexagonal San Martin logo, as is the majority of Chinese branding. And I think we dance around that subject unnecessarily in the hobby for fear of appearing snobbish. There's no snobbery in not wanting some daft meaningless words on your watch dial with a poorly proportioned sketch of a frog above it, or some fake European sounding brand with a logo that looks like it was done as a school project. Of course branding is important to some degree, but snobbery only enters the mix when you judge someone based upon the brand of their watch.
I have the same. I don't do logo's on my watches if i can help it and that Willard is just perfect. It's a great watch to wear daily and you don't mind if it gets banged up a little; its no big deal. Try feeling like that about a 700-1000 dollar Seiko.
This is a great topic! One thing I've been thinking about is talking about the Seiko Homages specifically and trying to get a discussion going on them vs actual Seiko.
Heimdallr is a candidate. I bought their SKX Mod version as it was an SKX case with turtle indices and monster hands, very slick. It has the best lume and specs of any watch I own.... however it is the one I wear least. Reason is lousy finishing, it feels sharp and rough throughout. I actually cut myself on the clasp. I need to buy a jewelers file to smooth it out before I gain confidence to wear it more frequent.
I think that would be interesting too Shane. I have a San Martin Willard. I bought it over a Seiko because I preferred the case shape. When Seiko released their LE Willard, this was a few years back, it was beautiful but ᴠᴇʀʏ expensive and the regular edition was slimmed to ~42.5mm. So it went from having that perfect, almost circular shape to having a sort of rugby ball shape... The San Martin is great. It's finished really well, the indicies and hands are incredible and, as I said - the shape was right. But, you know... it's not a Seiko. I'd be lying if I said that doesn't bother me a bit. 🤷♂️
Hi Shane. Without even reading your comment I've just mentioned Seiko in my own. From early on they were "borrowing" designs and now that they are being copied it's something of an irony. I've just bought the Heimdallr SKX007 in yellow (pepsi bezel to come à la Pogue). I've also just ordered an orange monster from Addiesdive. I'll look forward to what yourself and Dave might bring to the topic. Thanks. 👍
Most recently I've been purchasing homage parts, for extremely cheap. These parts have all seemed really good quality, even pretty water resistant. So my version of "modding" is very affordable ,so I'm happy
@@cosmalas7742 I've also gotten into building my own watches. The parts you can buy is just amazing. Some come from aliexpress and some come from other places. Am
There's always a balance. Homages will more often than not end up living in a watch box, but Seiko apologetics reasoning away a 1000 dollar watch with dust in the crystal, and a misaligned bezel don't see the reality of it either. Watch prices overall are going up unreasonably, at least from major brands. The watch industry is in a place that it hasn't been in in more than half a century and that's really cool, but the culture of buying 10 watches every few months that never get worn is overall damaging
I wish I could make sense of Seiko's strategy. In Q2 this year the entire group netted $500k and they seemed to be reporting that it was their sub-brands like Alba and Lorus that were making all the money, especially in quartz & digital.
@@MichaelWerneburg It just feels like they have an unreasonable want to get out of the value market but without an actual plan in how to do it and without putting any effort into it
@@spookshelves9834 That doesn't surprise me. The book I quoted on the meaning of brand above said that that would be the hardest part for emerging markets to get right. Rolex is probably among the best-managed luxury brands on the planet. And the Japanese are (or were) at least fairly consistent & reliable, which is a big part. I think it'll be interesting to see more of them make the leap from AliExpress to Amazon and then take the next steps. Let's not forget that the watch business isn't terribly rosy at the moment and that manufacturers like Seiko are making all their money on their lower-end, made-in-China quartz offerings.
Hey Dave thanks for another great video. I have about Fifty or so watches in my collections some of which are Chinese made homages along with Seiko, Citizen, Bulova, and Casio pieces mixed in. I love the homages because I get to experience watch designs that I would never get my hands on. The most I'll spend on a watch is $500. At this point in my collecting story I've not found a watch design that I needed to pay $500 or more for but the journey continues. This collecting style works for me but everyone should do what works in their own lives. Buy and wear what makes YOU happy. . This is a great collecting community we take part in. I am really enjoying the comment section on this one. Keep that great contact coming. Peace!
All valid points. But I must say that the level of finishing on my three Steeldives that I've purchased is excellent. Maybe I've just been lucky but the "Willard" homage that I have is actually better than my Seiko. At least the £100 Steeldive version has a bezel that ACTUALLY lines up perfectly. More than can be said for the Seiko.
Hi Dave. Excellent points. On the whole from my experience with many homage watches, is that they satisfy many people who chase a dopamine hit of another pretty decent watch for less money to add to the "affordable collection" . Its a gateway into an addictive consumption behaviour due to the buzz of getting a pretty watch with with decent spec and often minimal dissapointments. The risks you mentioned are all very real and and happen, but luckily are reasonably rare. Thanks for a great vid 👍
Again, you are presupposing much with your comment about collection. The Steeldive he described above has great specs, and keeps great time. Some people wear watches to tell time.
Great job of exposing the issues here without being negative or judgemental. Developing intellectual property and brand value is expensive, and it is IMO worth paying for. Those intangible "value" components add to my enjoyment of the product and the hobby. Thanks Dave!
I think, for me, it all comes down to value. I pick up a Pagani Design Sub homage and think to myself "this is worth about $100" and I pick up a Rolex Submariner and think "this is worth maybe $1,500" and I put back the Rolex not because its too costly but because I feel the value and price tag don't align. Same thing happened recently when I bought a new car. I had enough money to cover the purchase price of a BMW X5 but bought a Toyota Highlander instead, simply because I felt the Highlander's price was closer to what I deemed its value to be. As in anything, houses, cars, RV's, jewelry, watches, appliances, etc... just because a manufacture writes a certain MSRP on it does not mean that's is what cost to produce or is worth, supply and demand actually decide that.
My experience with Chinese movements is very positive. The 2824 clone in my tauchmeister has been running reliably for years and only needs time adjustment once a month. Other Chinese movements I own I have a similar experience with.
My first watch in my obsession was a SD1970 Willard, no logo. I was mesmerized by it & 30+ watches later, I still love it & is one of 3 beaters in my rotation (other 2: Seiko Prospex solar “Safarnie” & Islander ISL-28 original sunburst dial, modded with 2-tone Strapcode band & steel bezel for yacht master look)
Good video, Dave. I have 5 AliExpress watches. I also have Casios, Timex, Seiko, many microbrands and Swiss watches, including Rolex and Tudor. The AliExpress watches are the best value of any watches. I have a PD-1664 that is a stunner and cost a fraction of a percent of the cost of a rose gold Daytona. I have an Addiesdive vintage diver that is equal in specs, quality, dial and case finishing to microbrands 5 times its price (and its vintage Omega lyre lug case pairs nicely with the vintage Sub dial).
@@micway71 PD-1664 quality is excellent. It has a Seiko VK63 movement, sapphire crystal, ceramic bezel, nice case finishing, excellent rubber strap. Details look great, even under a loupe. It gets positive attention from everyone who sees it and I love wearing it. I paid $65. I don't know how they can sell this much quality for so little $.
@@dannyg6592 I own several Seikos and never a problem with any of them. Two of them are over 20 years. It’s very hard to beat the value of Seiko. Not talking Grand Seiko, though. But thanks for sharing your opinions. PD makes a good looking watch!
@@dannyg6592 Totally with you except for 1 caveat: You mention rubber strap. That's probably a great move, as the bracelet, especially the very weak, thin and wobbly clasp, is a true danger spot IMO. I love the 1644 and it punches well above its weight, but in the back of my mind, I do worry that the clasp will fail. I guess I could then replace it though.
Hi Dave. Hope you're ok. I would tend to agree with you regarding Aliexpress watches, but with that said I have two of them (the Steeldive Willard [bizarrely enough] and a Baltany field watch) and they both arrived here in England within 10 days, and I've no complaints about the build quality or QC. The Willard I am particularly impressed with. Finishing is fine, everything lines up (even Seiko struggles with that!), and the lume is insane. I got the Baltany after seeing to the video on Honest Watch Reviews, and the Steeldive after seeing several different channels featured it.
I totally agree with all your points. I am still amazed at how cheaply they can make and sell the homage watches though. You are buying a watch that looks just like the watch that you really want.
In fairness I believe many if not most micro-brands, many Swiss brands and many Japanese brands also have a significant number of components made In China, Indonesia etc. I believe that this is now fairly industry standard.
Unless the company is completely vertically integrated, and doesn’t have production facilities in China, there is no way to avoid Chinese parts in a watch. The companies chased profits at the cost of slave labor outside their borders.
You made some very valid points but I do disagree with some. Especially with the poor finishing. I have a new Pagani Design on my channel and it has really impressive finishing for sub £80. The build is mostly good too with a few minor issues but then again seiko have big qc problems too and so do many established watchmakers. Also if you buy from the right store, after service can really good. If you know what you're doing when shopping these watches are incredible value and do last a long time. Especially if you get one with a seiko movement. Then there's san martin and cronos which imo can easily rival a lot of microbrand watches that cost more. But then again you hit the nail on the head with their lack of design so they're by no means perfect but I can't deny that their value dollar for dollar is hard to beat.
Great video! I totally agree with everything you mentioned.On the flip side, you have all the fashion watch brands (MVMT, Michael Kors, etc.) that charge waaaaay to much for watches that are made in China, have no horological significance, and are basically cheaply made time pieces.
A year after your comment and I'll bet that your homage is still going strong. If it wasn't for these Chinese companies making cheaper watches that have decent quality and performance, how much would we now be paying for the more up end watches? The profit margins for the more prestigious companies are way out of proportion in relation to their total costs. Thank god designs of watches cannot be patented.
Hi Dave, I agreed with most of your points. But in terms of quality, I suggest your wait till you received your Steeldive Willard homage and give us your comment again. They are quite well made. As for the bigger brand name like Seiko, is terrible at some of their product QC. I think many of us are already victims of their notorious bezel or chapter ring misalignment issue.
AliExpress is “cutting out the middleman” and providing actual “affordable luxury” that the MVMT scammers only talk about. Meanwhile, Seiko can’t give us sapphire crystal or a signed crown under $200.
All excellent points. I have built multiple "homage" watches sourcing parts usually from eBay: Franken-watch Rolex homage (with features from the Yacht Master, Milguass, Air King), Seiko Alpinist homage (using mostly Seiko parts), Doxa 200-300 Sub homage (again, mostly Seiko parts) - all because i wanted the look, didn't want to "pay the freight" of the real watch, did each for c$300, and can point to the watch and say "I built that from parts." The pleasure of tinkering and building the homage myself by far outweighs the difference in cost for a $100 homage - at least the me. Good vid. Keep at it!
I own 2 Steeldive watches and have to say that they are a real joy to wear as they have very good build quality and they are both accurate within COSC specs. Hats off to Steeldive for producing quality watches at affordable prices.
I have three homage watches: Bliger “Rolex Explorer” $70, Bliger “Omega Seamaster 300 $80, and Steeldive 1970 “Seiko Willard” $108. All automatic, sapphire crystal, ceramic bezel on 1970, all Seiko NH35 inside, bracelets clasps are solid, milled and incredible, finishing excellent, and on and on. All hack and hand wind. The “worst” timekeeper is under 10 seconds a day. I could go on, but why? Incredible values, proud to wear them!
Agree on some points. However after handling hundreds of these homages, i can say that I LOVE THEM. I DONT wanna pay for a company’s marketing campaign. I just want a great watch for the price. Qc issues ? Sure there are some. Seiko has no qc issues ? They have MANY. After sales ? Do you want the hassle of going back & forth ? Why not just pay 80% less , and no hassle ? A lot of the qc issues can be solved easily. Dust on dial / crystal ? Easy I may be biased, but after almost 2 years of these homages, the good stuff FAR outweigh the bad stuff !
Hi Dave, I have to say I agree with much of what you say but by no means all. I have a couple of San Martin watches, a bronze flieger and a vintage 1953 sub homage. In both cases, the quality and finishing are fantastic and there have been no QC issues. The customer service was very good with personal messages from SM re despatch and tracking and each arrived in about 10 days to Europe. Both have fantastic specs and have proved super reliable. I have a couple of Steeldive too and although they are good , they are not quite in the San Martin league, but they were cheaper. Super Quick delivery on them too and no problems so far. I also bought a Baltany dirty dozen quartz piece and it is very well made and nicely finished. They are easily a match for some Japanese and even European brands in terms of quality. But I do agree, most lack originality. But for many collectors it’s the only way to experience some of these watch types without taking a gamble on the used market. I suggest that you try San Martin and buy direct rather than through Ali Express. It also sounds like delivery to Japan is a particular local issue for you as the delays you describe don’t seem to be replicated elsewhere.
I don't consider homage watches fake or whatever. I just buy whay I like and let's be realistic - if I buy a Pagani Design Sub it doesn't mean that i really want a Rolex Sub (since I'd never spent so much cash on a watch) but I want something similar for a fair price. BTW Yes, I DO have both a Steeldive Turtle and Tuna (talking about original designs from Seiko - both are close to 50 years old now, practically unchanged) and they are a great value
I totally agree with all of your points. But I would add these points: - Homages are a good way to find out if you like a watch on-wrist, before plunking down 10-100x the money for the real thing. But homages aren't 1:1 copies so beware. - I think you're saying that Chinese microbrands are the dubious value, and I agree. I appreciate homages from reputable brands like Steinhart or even Invicta. - Another reason these Aliexpress watches are so cheap is that labor in China is cheap (unfortunately for the workers) and the government subsidizes shipping to help support the proliferation of Chinese product sales. It's impossible to stop buying all Chinese made things - they're everywhere. But I'm going to stop buying whimsical things like watches.
'Chinese microbrands'? Do you mean Chinese factory brands? I would definitely not use the term micro to classify these Steeldive/Heimdallr watches etc.
a agree with the sentiment. big brands certainly use Chinese productions(as does Steinhart) but there is at least a modicum of scrutiny because they do have vested interested and reputations. Remember cathy lee giffords sweatshop controversy.
Having owned a great number of microbrand watches, some high end luxury watches, and in the last year or so, a number of San Martin watches, I think that none of the points presented explain the dramatic difference in prices relative to the quality of the watches being offered, except unless one takes into account the profit margin that microbrands introduces. The level of precision manufacturing on a San Martin puts my other affordables (including microbrands) to shame, and it is reflected in the fact that these are the only affordables in my collection that are still on their OEM bracelets. At the end of the day, most microbrands do the vast majority of their business based on copied designs as well, and they benefit from the same potential economies of scale as these AliExpress watches.
Several points. 1. A watch from Aliexpress normally takes a week to arrive if you live in the UK. 2. I have had issues with watches from China, and they always try to help out. 3, Many high street name watches are actually made in China, regardless of wear the business is based. 4. I own four Seikos, so I know how overpriced and under spec'd they are. 5. Making a homage is not cheap, it just lacks thought. The Chinese know there is a big market for them, so they make them. I am not into Chinese homage watches. but their quality and finish can be excellent, and that will depend on what you spend. A $200 San martin or Proxima is likely to be as well finished as a $1000 Seiko or Tissot
First, I think you're assuming that we're ignorant of basic econiomics. We're not. Ok, some of us might be. But just because I won't spend $1000 on a Seiko Willard doesn't mean I think the Seiko is rip off, it means I won't spend $1000 for a Seiko. So for me it means I either have a Willard homage or I have nothing. And yes, I have the Steel Dive Willard and I find it quite satisfactory for $100.
For 100 bucks Mt steeldive arrived in 14 days, and is literally without fault and runs accurately, I also talked quite a bit with the seller before and after receiving the watch
1. Customer Service: This is absolutely true, but also contingent what kind of watch enthusiast you are. These watches are a great buy if you are an amateur watch tinkerer and want a watch to modify/practice on. SO the obvious answer is, service only matters if it matters, and certainly is irrelevant below a certain price point that is near "disposable." 2. Fit and finish: This one is really hit or miss. I have had a basically perfect finish Cadisen dress watch, and I've had a diver from the same company that had bezel insert misalignment and index alignment issues... only one of those I can fix. 3. Copied design: I am not going to get into the ethical issue here, only how if affects the watch and the buyer. The main problem with an homage... or a "clomage" as is often the case, is that the majority of buyers (at least in the USA) buy these as holdovers for the watch they really want. Few people buy a Pagani Design Seamaster homage because they think it is a great value over the "rip-off" of an Omega; they buy it because they REALLY want the Omega. I am victim to this as well. I bought a Seamaster homage some time ago, and while it was a fine watch, it never really satisfied the itch I was trying to scratch, and I actually got more enjoyment out of my Phoibos Wave Master (a more unique design, and more capable watch). Eventually, I ended up finally finding a real Seamaster that was affordable (before prices skyrocketed). Now, if you truly do not care about homage vs real, then, yes, an homage makes sense insofar as the real deal is objectively NOT 10x the watch to command 10x the price... but it is a better watch, and the homage did short cut all the cost that went into making you want it in the first place, which is your 4th point, and absolutely true.
Unfortunately customer service can be pretty patchy from micro brands right now too. I've had $300 up in the air for months now with a micro brand. First because I had to wait months for it to come out and then it was later than their announced release date. Then it took a month to get through shipping and customs. Then it was dead on arrival and it took a few days of emailing back and forth to show the watch is dead. Then I had to ship it back and I'm waiting for it to arrive at their facility so they can look at it and decide if they can fix it or send me a replacement. I'd name the brand but I want the issue resolved first. I want to see the final results of my customer service before I issue final judgement on the matter but as it is now I'm frustrated mainly because I got a broken watch after waiting months after paying for it and they didn't offer any sort of expedited shipping to resolve things quickly.
Likewise (or maybe it's covered in your "wait months for it to come out ..." language), some microbrands are notorious for their watches always being sold out/unavailable. I guess we can look at nice pictures of them instead.
@@MessagingMatters I've definitely noticed some micro brands that have most of their selection out of stock or every model they make is a limited edition kickstarter backed watch with only 500 or 1000 units.
I liked this video, Dave! The subject of Homages vs "Chinese Knockoffs" is a fascinating and difficult one. Yeah, they have a sapphire crystals, it's not the be and end all of watch collecting. "Level of Quality readily to accept" best describes the focus of this topic. Thanks again.
I have watches from San Martin and I think they are awesome. I use them at work where I have a tendency to scratch up most of my watches. I also have the Genuine ones such a my Marine Master 300M Seiko which I only wear outside of work.
Well I have a Nibosi 1985 green steel diver from eBay that I paid $50 for that is a very close homage to the Rolex submariner “hulk” and it’s not perfect - but 90% of the quality for less than half a percent of the cost of the Rolex is a pretty good value to me😄 The points made here on quality control are valid though.
Got my first Steeldive last week: 1957 (Omega Seamaster 007 Bond homage). Love it! Excellent value for money. Finishing is very very good. And one aspect is even better than the original: no ugly helium escape valve. That's what i especially like: when they improve upon it. Like how i prefer those larger indices on my Tactical frog FX (Tudor Pelagos FXD homage).
My first and limited experience buying a Chinese watch and opinion on some of the points you mentioned. 1. My Cronos L6016 arrived from China in five days which is just as fast or faster than any product I have bought in the United States, with the exception of buying products from Amazon. 2. My watch has a three year warranty and saying warranty support is nearly nonexistent because you wouldn't take advantage of the warranty doesn't make a lot of sense to me. 3. The finishing is just as good or better as the finishing on my Seiko watches. 4. Most watches look similiar to or a homage of other watches. 5. I don't see how the price of manufacture has anything to do with quality or value.
Thanks! I switched to Davinci Resolve this year. It took me awhile to get comfortable with it, and there's still a ton of features I haven't even started to learn, but I REALLY like it.
San Martin seems to be rising above bargain basement photo-copied watches. Customer service seems good judging by reviews, quality and finish is very good and they have even ventured a little into an original design or two. All which goes to show that your 5 points are valid Dave.
As having a small collection myself I always take time in finding that one watch that checks all the boxess including a watch that I can afford this at this time. I do have some luxxury pieces in my collection like JLC, and Rolex but I also have Seikos and Orients. I have never purchased a homage, but I have purchased watches that have similar styling to a well known design. I prefer watches have their own design queues, eample my Yema Bronze GMT superman, it has the same markers as a Rolex, similar styled GMT bezel but it is not an exact, the 24 hour bezel is somewhat different, markers are smaller and has a unique bezel lock. Now I am not a snob and have no problem with people that do buy homages they do offer a person to have that submariner that they can't afford, as long as they are not stealing the name and being outright fakes like you see being sold by street venders I am OK with other peoples choice in watches
I think the issue is that homages provide people with the opportunity to buy watch that looks like a rolex they can not obtain, not that they cannot afford. I can afford a new submariner at retail. But what I refuse to do is pay for a 1993 model for double the price of a new one. So a san martin homage allows me to have the look and a little bit of the feel of a submariner without playing their game.
Older video, but I think it's fair to mention that Chinese companies do seem to ship very quickly these days. I ordered a San Martin BB Pepsi about a month ago (webstore - I didn't go through Ali Express) and the store offered FedEx premium shipping for free - lots of other stores I've seen offer the same shipping option. Took a little over a week to get here to Germany, but it would've been even faster if I had timed my order better (avoiding weekends, etc). Re value: I've bought (new) and sold ...errr... five Steinharts. None of them were much older than a year when I sold them on, but: Overall I pretty much lost between just under 20% to ~25% on all of them, with MSRPs ranging from (then) €395 for the OVM 42 to the (again: then) €980 Paul Newman Panda homage. All but one were vintage models, but since my 42 Ceramic Green lost about the same amount as all the vintage models, I'm not sure if that means anything. Using a big German watch-forum, finding a buyer also wasn't much of a hassle - I think the hardest sell took around four weeks from posting the thread to selling it. Re: Customer service: Steinhart's is excellent, plain and simple. I clumsily dropped my very first Steinhart on a hard floor, putting regulation out of whack and since I was worried about serious damage, I contacted them. They immediately offered to check the watch and fix the regulation issue for free - they even paid the postage. I've also heard that they will fix stuff like lumed bezel-inserts (which can turn yellow on some models) for free - even for second hand owners and for watches that are out of warranty. Not sure if any of this is applicable to Chinese watches since I've never sold one of those and depsite SM's 2-year-warranty, I'd be hesitant to send mine back to China. It would probably take months for it to get back to me, since I don't believe they use expedited shipping for warranty-stuff.
Thanks Dave 🙏🏼 fantastic topic and covered very nicely... The videos are already phenomenal, yet they're still getting better with each release. Regards from South Africa 🇿🇦 PS: We're still looking forward to that Review of the Vostok Dress watch you showed us in one of the previous videos (off-white/cream dial)
If you are happy with your purchase and you dont care for reselling value - you are a winner. I adore my San Martin 6200. Its the best ever value for me. It wont be for somebody else.
Depends on what kind of collector you are. I tend to collect based on how the watch looks and its design that may or may not match my outfit of the day.
So the only differences are what you set out? I mean for a item that is sometimes 50, or 100 times less expensive, sign me up. Not sure this vid is having the effect you think it is.
I always bought Seikos back when I first got into collecting and when they had lower prices. I usually bought second hand then too so as not to get a surprise with misalignment. Now most watches I've added to the collection are from Chinese mushrooms/micros - better value to me....better specs, replaceable movements (I can readily find) and cases/ parts that can be re-used as a mod and I've bought them new. I suppose not paying retail is still the answer for acquiring Seikos but I'm not getting any warranty there either. There are brands with better manufacturing and specs for much less and many are coming out with interesting / riskier designs (or lesser known homages likely). Shipping speed is usually a couple weeks at most. It really boils down to how you define value. I don't care about brands or brand names so if I enjoy wearing it, I'm ok with how it feels and like how it looks and works and knowing it didn't cost much I will have a better experience and that to me equates to value.
This is a really interesting topic Dave. By no means am I an Homage hater (I wearing one now in fact) but I agree that low prices don't always = value. Pretty much ᴇᴠᴇʀʏ watch enthusiast I know personally, or simply follow, seems to own at least one homage. Guys who collect very pricey vintage pieces may own a WMT 'faux' vintage homage or 2 to use as a 'beater' or for when they are in unsafe areas. Collectors of modern luxury timepieces may own something like a Smiths Everest for the same reason and average guys like most of us probably own a Steinhart, Parnis, San Martin etc. or 2 (at least!). I think that's a good thing. Where I think it's not such a good thing is if ones entire watch box is full of such homages. Much better to save more, stifle that urge to impulse purchase and buy less quantity. Then we own a few watches that have some horological merit from brands with a rich history. It truly is, imho, much more satisfying - and no more costly in the long run.
I have to say i have never waited more than 3 weeks. And i have had a fair few. Plus as i had my watches delivered i also got a text asking me if i was satisfied. Plus i have to say, your getting em lining there bezels up more often than not. That said, I still value my seiko's and Orients more. But there are some really good original designs with fantastic specs that are worth the money over and over. Just look around. There is originality. I am u.k based by the way. Cheers.
I still can't understand how a company like Pagani Design can sell a watch that looks so much like a real Omega Planet Ocean for less than $200--- with a ceramic bezel, and sapphire glass. It shows me that, while the Omega is a great watch, it is vastly overpriced, and for most of us, can never be bought. So, a cheap Chinese homage is not only the only alternative, but a very satisfying one too.
I have owned auto seikos for 35 years now. I bought one in japan in 1991 while in the US Marines, it lasted 28 years and only needed 1 service before its ultimate demise. Ive had 3 others since then. All had some problem rear up within a year. QC isnt what it used to be. My steeldive 1975 has been flawless.
Currently wearing the steeldive you described lmao, it's a solid prospect and if your looking for a beater that goes the extra mile then a steeldive will do it
This was a great video and many well taken points. I have only ever purchased 2 'homage' watches, and I bought them for a specific reason and purpose. I was in the market for the real thing and bought the closest homage I could to see if I liked the size, style, feel, etc on wrist before spending 4 or 5 figures on the real thing. In one case it got me more excited for the real thing and in the other it saved me many thousands of dollars as I found I didn't connect with it on wrist the way I thought I would. So, for that I think homages are a good option. btw, I gave both San Martin watches away after my use for them. Thanks for another GREAT video, thanks for all you do, keep up the great work.
I think you might have to do a follow up video when you receive your steeldive. I have quite a few AliX watches (as well as some Swiss made watches) and the quality is really quite good.
There is a reason for the different price level for all different watch brands. But definitely the more prestiges or luxurious the brand, the more ripped off. Consumers are willing though, the pride the brand is stamped on the dial is priceless. Those who don't care about branding, the benefits are value as long as he is willing to accept minor flaws.
Excellent video. Good points, even though I don't agree with you a 100% on some of them. I have other problems in mind buying those Ali watches. I am always afraid that people who build those watches are working in a slavery like environment, overtime, no holidays, underpaid etc etc.. I really hope I am wrong, but I always have that bad feeling about those Chinese workers in my mind when buying one. I would gladly pay +20eur for each of those watches if I would be totally sure that people who build them are working in a nice environments with no overtime, weekends off, payed holydays and etc..
You can add the cost of an AD network for local presentation, sales, and service vs online sales only. In some cases there is tooling and machinery created in order to manufacture components.
Great video! "If you buy pagani you don't want pagani, you want a rolex". This is true and you are brave to say it. I'm sick of the sub homages, then again I never really cared for the real thing either...
I agree. I don´t care about the Submariner either. Because they are copied so much, that the look almost becomes generic. Besides that, the real Submariner has a bit too much text on the dial for my taste. There are a lot of rolex watches that I like though.
I dont care about marketing or whatever. I just want a good watch for a good price. If thats a Chinese "homage" then so be it. i doubt if Rolex is expecting someone like me to buy their watches. Im not costing them anything.
Dave, I think you're right but you may have missed a couple of points. A $99 NH movement watch with sapphire and some water resistance is an item I am prepared to put in jeopardy. I'll wear it working on my car, or gardening, and if it gets dinged I won't care. My Sumo is perfectly able to manage, but I take it off when I do the dishes. In addition, I might well but a Steeldive Willard to test drive the watch for a few months before dropping $1K on the Seiko original. In both of these cases I'm getting good value. The real issue is people are comparing apples to oranges. Commenters who say Zelos is poor value compared with Merkur are not comparing like to like - or at least they are limiting the terms of reference to price only. We buy AliEx watches because they are cheap, with very few exceptions. I have a Steeldive (it's good!) but "good value" is all I have to say about it. I can't remember the model name - it was incredibly generic. It looks good, wears well, but has very little soul. My NTH Amphion (the best watch I own?) cost 4x as much and had two prior owners. The saga of getting it shipped to Australia was awful. But that experience helped cement its permanent place in my collection. You discussed 5 additional considerations, but there are more. I've followed Peter Sargison/2nd Hour watches since the Gin Clear diver was released. I bought one, then a Mandala, and I have ordered a Giant Stride. I'm never going to have that kind of relationship with Heimdallr. I'm interested in Australian and New Zealand watch brands simply because they're local - it makes perfect sense to me that Spaniards might collect Borealis, or New Yorkers would be interested in Hemel. It's about connection, and having interesting watches. We buy these watches because we think they are cool. We feel a connection to them, to the company and the designer. At the very least they are status symbols, jewelry and markers of achievement. I don't get that with Cronos: no matter how good their Seamaster 300 homage, I'd rather go for an Aerotech Coral Bay.
I agree with your points, but still think Seiko is ripping us off. Even if we added an extra 100 dollars per watch to make up for marketing/R&D/warranty that still puts the Willard at $200 which is 150 less than what seiko asks for their Seiko 5 divers that have misaligned bezels and hardlex crystals.
I disagree with all the points. Homages provide all the value I think at the fraction of a price to the real deal. There's a point where it doesn't make sense to buy a homage of a watch when the real thing costs a hair above but in most cases the real McCoys are just way too expensive for me to purchase and I wouldn't want to wear it in public anyways due to the unnecessary attention it may get. I appreciate homages and feel it gives the end user the right amount of value. Each to his/her own as watches are pretty subjective, thanks for the video but yea I'll just disagree.
To be fair depending on the issue you’re having some stores will still help you out. I had a faulty clasp and reached out to Phylida and they sent me another. I tend to notice that bracelets are the worst part that they skimp on and as much as that sucks, I’m ok with that since I can change straps and the main part of the watch is still pretty ok
Value is determined by the buyer. Units sold tells you all you need to know. Tens, or hundreds of millions of consumers have voiced their opinion that these watches provide them with tremendous value. 1. My shipping speed on a watchdives/steeldive/addiesdive/etc is usually 2 days on Amazon prime. 2. When the movement costs me $35 to replace, why would I care about customer service? If it has cosmetic defects Amazon will replace it no questions asked. 3. The "cost" of developing a 70 year old design is paid for by selling obscenely inflated watches for 70 years.
Just because a watch has good specs doesn’t mean it’s been well put together. Personally I’d rather buy a Seiko with hardlex, aluminium bezel, pressed clasp, than buy some dodgy watch off Ali Express with sapphire, ceramic, and a milled clasp. I really don’t care about that stuff as much as I care about build quality, water proofing, and warranty.
Now if only Seiko invested in actual QC, it might be worth to consider as being a good value.. When you compare a Cronos or a San Martin or Heimdallr or the same Steeldive with a real Seiko the latter often leaves a lot to be desired. Pressed clasps, hardlex, misalligned bezels? So 1990s..
Interesting topic and I would agree with most of the points you raised. However, is it just me, or has Seiko's QC dropped since it started charging so much more for their products? My Seikos that I had in the 1980s were so much cheaper than comparative Seiko models nowadays but with much better quality control.
I've nothing against Seiko, but one could argue the additional cost of their current watches are pumped back into marketing rather that QC....regrettably.
Purchased several Pagani Rolex homage watches from both Amazon and Ali Express and most were below $125 and it offers a very good watch. Also, Heimdallr offers a great Grand Seiko homage pieces. BLUF - both watch brands are out of China.
Great topic. One additional point I’d like to make: when companies like Steel Dive and San Martin copy the design down to the last detail, minus the logo: it’s not an homage, it’s a knock-off. Homages are interpretations of an original, not copies. Personally, I don’t go for these because… A) I won’t be satisfied with a knock-off, and would rather not buy one if I can’t afford the real thing. B) There are an endless number of incredible and affordable original watches out there. FWIW, I don’t think it’s wrong to buy one at all. It just doesn’t do it for me. Always do what makes you happy and avoid what doesn’t.
I agree with pretty much everything you discussed. I will however make one argument and that is, companies like Pagani are improving their QC based on customer feedback. For example, the PD1644 was a nice watch when I was released a few years ago but it definately had some issues like only 50m of WR but customers complained and they upped the WR to 100 with is definately acceptable for a chronograph. The other thing that they did was make the 3 dials fully functional as the specs would suggest on a more expensive brand like Rolex, something that seiko hasn't done with their Panda chrono. I am absolutely in love with my Pagani and plan on buying and reviewing more of their watches but what you get for the money is unbeleivable. If I ever have the money to purchase more watches at a higher caliber I definately will because I beleive have g a well rounded collection is what makes this hobby exciting. Thanks for the great review and knowledge.
Great video Dave, thanks, Value cannot be measured in $’s alone, I am lucky enough to have a Longines hydro conquest and a Tissot Le Locle, I also have a Seiko 5 and a couple of Chinese Homages. What I find is that I gain a lot more pleasure from actually visiting a local jeweller and purchasing a mainstream brand than I do from waiting 2 months for the post to arrive. I also get pleasure from hunting the bargain, eg, Black Friday sales etc. My Longines came with a 22.5% discount and my Tissot with a 50% discount.
Ordered and waiting for a Steeldive Willard. Will use it as a true beater, saving my Seiko SPB151 Willard for "Nicer" outings. At about €90 shipped it was an easy decision.
I have a few San Martin watches and they are great . . Better then my seiko watches. My SM dive watch is better then my steinhart ocean one that cost 50% more . Also if I get ripped off for my San Martin I only lose a $300 watch . If I lose my tudor BB58 i am out $4 500 .
if I could steer anyone away from cheaper homages, generally the difference between the homage and the real deal is the size specs. It is soooo worth it in my opinion to pay for a thinner watch and unless you are okay wearing 42mm, any automatic watch under 41mm that is under $400 will probably be 12+mm thick. A thick watch is okay for the weekend, so If you want a cool cheap dive watch to wear to the beach by all means go for it, but for an everyday watch it is worth the money to get a thinner watch. on the market I typically see 42mm and 10.5 thick or 40mm and 13mm thick or 40mm and 11mm thick with a domed crystal. I also think it is worth it to not have a domed crystal, although a domed crystal has a cool retro look, their is always a glare and it gets bothersome. if you look at $200 watches make the jump to $500, its worth it!
I disagree with your last 3 points. The third one is basically the sunk cost fallacy, the brands that designed the watches already made millions out of it and also positioned the brands very highly, if they can’t come up with new original designs before design patents expire then it’s their problem. The 4th point: no marketing needed is actually a great thing, these watches have so much value that there are hundreds of RUclips videos talking good things about them, I don’t think there is better marketing than that. Fifth point is just silly, do you think Seiko does not mass produce parts? I don’t see why this is “bad” only for homage brands. From my own experience with a Seiko 5: bezel disalignment, movement +60 seconds and the closest official customer service is literally in another country (I’m currently in Sweden and I would have to mail it to Norway). So tell me how that justifies the 200 dollars price difference?
My watches from Ali have taken no longer than 2 weeks to arrive here in England , the fit , finish and accuracy have been way better than the higher end Seiko’s I own at a fraction of the cost, they are a no brainer for me..
well said
Totally agree. Ordered 2 from San Martin that just came in. Took about a week. Amazing finishing. My Seiko turtle is 6 months old and rotor is sticking now. We’ll see how these San Martin watches hold up
Same here
You can only lose $200 on $200 watch, but why people think about monetary value. You personally see every items value for yourself like homage vs real.
Lots of good points, but given Seikos high level of QC issues at premium price, I suspect point 2 is less valid. Point 5 is just incorrect, if you think Seiko doesn’t have scale that allows it to reduce costs across its group, but still it produces watches with cheap clasps, hollow end links and unbranded crowns and buckles. Great vid
good point. curious which prospex you've owned?
I think his points for 2 and 5 are still valid because there's a degree of severity with both that's still relevant.
Regarding Point 2, Seiko does have QC issues but they're mostly related to alignment, while QC issues for cheap homages from AE often have stuff like dirty under the crystal or sharp edges which are far more egregious. And because of Point 1, getting them fixed is a lot harder.
Regarding Point 5, Seiko does have a lot of scale but their scale is absolutely dwarfed by the factories that produce homages and other AE watches.
@@MrMadvillan King sumo
Enjoy your Chinese rip-offs 😁
Homages have consistently worse QC. Seiko was just a really bad example for a comparison.
I agree with all the points, however I have the steeldive Willard homage, and was thinking about buying the real deal, but decided not to, because I feel like the Steeldive is a better watch, no, not better value, actually better (for me), here's why (talking about the blue version):
-SD has a signed crown, seiko doesn't (this still baffles me when it comes to a watch for 1000 USD+)
-SD has lumed ceramic bezel, seiko has aluminium - both looks and functionality, first thing I scratch is always the ezel
-SD has framed date, seiko doesn't
-SD has better lume, this watch has one of the best lumes in my collection while it's one of the cheapest, it lights up like a christmas tree
-the Seiko I was looking at was misaligned (I know, shocker), the SD had no QC issues - this is obviously anecdotal, but I have heard of misaligned seiko bezels in the past from other people as well
-and my personal opinions, i like the SD dial color more; I don't like the golden text and hand on the seiko, the bezel looks better on the SD
obviously Seiko is the creator of the design, and has the history, but if I didn't know the brands, and both watch cost the same, I'd definitely buy the SD, even if I knew the brands, I'd probably buy the SD.
Obviously noone expect Seiko to make the same watch for 100 dollars, but they have to keep up, you cannot (IMO) release a watch for 1000+ dollars without a signed crown, comeon seiko.
(the Seiko has better caseback, hand finishing, strap/bracelet, movement, case finishing is pretty much the same)
Aren't higher end Seiko's made in Japan? So you need to factor in that as well. They need to pay production/wages relative to Japan, which is one of the most expensive countries in the world. That said, I know what you mean - they need to at least get it right.
Great points all round I get what dave is saying about originality and designs but the quality of some seikos is so poor these days I really don't think they can justify the costs
I have a steel dive tuna and it's one of my favourites and in my opinion better looking than the seiko ( mine has an orange dial and lume you can see from space!) That said its not an original probably why I have so many vostok watches coz they are "real"
@@67spot I have a number of Seikos and have also bought a couple Aliexpress watches. The finishing and quality of the Seikos is definitely better if you look beyond just the raw specs. People get so hot and bothered about signed crown, sapphire crystal, ceramic bezels, etc. But I don't know, it's all just groupthink among watch collectors that makes some of these minor differences up to be such a big deal. I've never been bothered by the lack of signed crown. Yeah, Sapphire is nice, but I've never had problems with hardlux or acrylic. Each has a place. Yes, Seiko has some inconsistent quality control, mainly just around bezel alignment, which they should sort out. But so do many manufacturers. I have a Vostok as well. I enjoy wearing it at times, and it's definitely a good bargain for what you get. But again, the level of finishing and timekeeping on an Amphibia is nowhere near the average Seiko. But it's more than good enough for a $70 automatic watch. I think you missed Dave point about the COSTS Seiko incurs that the Chinese companies don't have to. It's not just be about originality of designs but the COSTS of design work, tooling, marketing, etc. The Chinese companies are free riding on these investments, which is why they can undercut Seiko on price so much.
@@catlike1 @NERV OUS I think most of seiko watches are made in Taiwan these days, not Japan, or definitely part of the process is outside Japan. Noone's arguing Seikos should be 100 bucks, but I have for example a Tissot PR80 that I boght for 220 dollars + import fees with sapphire, signed crown, and a swiss movement with 80 hours of power reserve, with a nicely decorated rotor.
As for the crown, I guess everyone has something they want on a watch, I even buy signed crowns for my Vostoks to swap them out :D, I just really hate the plain crown, to me it's more importan than sapphire, or even the movement, but different folks different strokes.
Again, I'm not saying they should be 100 bucks, but to buy that watch for that price, you REALLY have to apreciate the history of the model.
I own the Steeldive Willard thing. It is a great watch. Durable as hell. And tells great time.
I agree with most of your points - however, doesn't mean that large brands aren't over charging for their products. It's like any premium brand , your paying for the name.....
You’re usually paying for their marketing budget which is why you know the name. Rolex is at the top of the list of most over priced.
That’s almost universally true, for everything. And I wouldn’t say it’s a bad thing either. Building a brand name and products is monumental work and cost, actually much, much more than discussed in this video.
For me, a mechanical wristwatch is not like a toaster. I couldn’t care less what brand or history or original design my toaster is, but for my watches, that’s actually top priority, specs vs price doesn’t really matter to me. Most people won’t admit what I just said, but that’s actually the reason Seiko, Rolex and other strong brands with strong designs sell like hotcakes no matter what hobbyists say about them.
To be honest if it weren't for Aliexpress homages and finding out about them via RUclipsrs I am not sure if I would be a watch enthusiast, beginner collector or watch many RUclips watch videos, I think I would be down to 1-2 watch purchases a year and largely be priced out of most watches and brands - including Seiko with their price increases.
Yeah. Homages give us an opportunity to collect and enjoy watches that are affordable. I have a few myself. Most of the time if a homage watch breaks, I can just order parts online and fix it myself comfortably
I was wary about AliExpress and Chinese brands initially. Now I can't stop buying. No thanks also to Seiko increasing its prices across the board, while Rolexes and Omegas are out of my range.
Homage watches are great. I don't care if they don't have the history or prestige when they cost way less. You get great specs with brands like San Martin, Steinhart, and Squale. I speak from experience as I've owned all of those brands. I've since moved on to Grand Seiko and Tudor but those watches were great bang for the buck.
@Max I have and they were all fine.
IT is a tough one! Seiko $400 for hardlex and a bezel that never alignes. Steeldive $100 for sapphire and a bezel that alignes perfectly. Maybe Seiko should offer a little bit more for the extra $300?
do you own or have owned any prospex divers?
This guy above is obsessed with that prospex question in other comments. I have the Padi turtle. Its nice but not great. Its bezel doesnt line up good and still doesnt have sapphire. The bracelet isnt the best either so its on a silicone band now. So if you think prospex is amazing for the money it aint so its not much better than a 5 . Its a $500 watch with no sapphire, missaligned bezel and average bracelet. It looks good and runs fine. Im not diving 200 meters anytime soon. So a cheaper version that i can swim or wash my hands with does the job. What prospex do you have watch nerd?
@@BeeRumblin13 yeah buddy not sure what the issue is; I’m curious if their experience is first hand. You’d be surprised how many ppl are completely willing to talk trash based on zero personal experience - the fast majority. and like you, so eager to tell me. Regardless i’m not sure why you have to be a stalker then d!ck about it?
@@MrMadvillan yes I do. And he is 100% right.
would love to see your Steeldive in 2 years and compare it with my 30 years old Seiko diver... just to have a laugh.
I was especially pleased with the inscription on the clothes in Russian))).. it says scuba diver dude. The first word that is written in orange has an interesting origin: this is an abbreviation of a whole phrase that completely sounds like "a person who respects the great American culture")))). The phrase and the term educated from it were popular in the USSR in the 60s among informals who had a negative attitude to the Soviet system. later, the word simply began to denote a young male person. By the way, even in Russia, not everyone knows this fact.Greetings to all from Russia
I get everything you're saying but I really wish they started offering Saphire in more watches. Take the microbrand momentum for instance. They offer saphire for a very reasonable cost and will upgrade you watch to saphire for a VERY reasonable cost if you send it in for service. I honestly think Saphire may not be as expensive as some watch companies would have us think. And they reserve it as a reason to jack the prices up like phone companies do when you want extra storage in your phone. upgrading storage from 256gb to 512gb is pennies on the dollar to them in comparison to the extra 200 bucks they'll charge you for the memory upgrade.
Surprisingly Timex just introduced Sapphire and screwdown case backs on their newest Expedition North launch. Bravo Timex!
Interesting topic. Can’t say I agree with you on most of your negative aspects of AliExpress watches. My experience has been Positive with the quality, the service (even when things don’t go as planned), the shipping and the value. I do agree that with some watch brands, paying more gets you a higher level of finishing and quicker shipping. For me it’s about what I value for each watch I decide to purchase, sometimes I value what Seiko or Zelos give me, and sometimes I value what Steeldive or Pagani give me. I don’t care if a watch is made in China or is Swiss made, I do care about the value I expect I am paying for in the watch. So in the end, I think for the most part, AliExpress watches provide me exactly the value I think they do. But an interesting topic to get the discussions going.
Hallo. I own two STEEL DIVE watches. To address your points: 1) Delivery to canada 2-3 weeks 2) No quality issues that you are talking about (at least in the watches that I received) 3) In terms of design it is the same, I agree, but certain elaments are done better that in the original watch. Ex, saphire christal, luminous bezel - you do not get it in original SEIKO Captain Willard 4) Many SWISS companies are making homages of their well-known SWISS competitors, but the price of those is much higher than of STEEL DIVE watches . 5) I agree with this point, but that what good purchase is all about. The economies of scale are being passed to the clients. You buy the same watch for a much better price without compromising the quality. NH35 is very good, reliable mechanism and qualitywise is totally comparable to ETA 2824-2 or SW200...
I have a Steeldive Willard. I like the watch a lot and feel like I got a good deal compared to the Seiko re-issue. When it comes to value, it actually flows both ways. Yes, Chinese manufactures benefit from design and marketing expenses paid by major brands. But Swiss and Japanese brands are able to increase their profits because they can source cases cheap from China, because Chinese manufacturers have made huge investments in their production facilities.
I got the Steeldive without the logo on the dial, because who cares about brand name recognition and marketing expenses if you are taking a PBR upriver into Cambodia.
I personally think the Steeldive logo is bad, as is that hexagonal San Martin logo, as is the majority of Chinese branding. And I think we dance around that subject unnecessarily in the hobby for fear of appearing snobbish.
There's no snobbery in not wanting some daft meaningless words on your watch dial with a poorly proportioned sketch of a frog above it, or some fake European sounding brand with a logo that looks like it was done as a school project.
Of course branding is important to some degree, but snobbery only enters the mix when you judge someone based upon the brand of their watch.
I have the same. I don't do logo's on my watches if i can help it and that Willard is just perfect. It's a great watch to wear daily and you don't mind if it gets banged up a little; its no big deal. Try feeling like that about a 700-1000 dollar Seiko.
Up north of the Do' Long Bridge, eh? Yup, that SD will hold up.
This is a great topic! One thing I've been thinking about is talking about the Seiko Homages specifically and trying to get a discussion going on them vs actual Seiko.
Heimdallr is a candidate. I bought their SKX Mod version as it was an SKX case with turtle indices and monster hands, very slick. It has the best lume and specs of any watch I own.... however it is the one I wear least. Reason is lousy finishing, it feels sharp and rough throughout. I actually cut myself on the clasp. I need to buy a jewelers file to smooth it out before I gain confidence to wear it more frequent.
I think that would be interesting too Shane.
I have a San Martin Willard. I bought it over a Seiko because I preferred the case shape.
When Seiko released their LE Willard, this was a few years back, it was beautiful but ᴠᴇʀʏ expensive and the regular edition was slimmed to ~42.5mm. So it went from having that perfect, almost circular shape to having a sort of rugby ball shape...
The San Martin is great. It's finished really well, the indicies and hands are incredible and, as I said - the shape was right.
But, you know... it's not a Seiko. I'd be lying if I said that doesn't bother me a bit. 🤷♂️
Hi Shane. Without even reading your comment I've just mentioned Seiko in my own. From early on they were "borrowing" designs and now that they are being copied it's something of an irony. I've just bought the Heimdallr SKX007 in yellow (pepsi bezel to come à la Pogue). I've also just ordered an orange monster from Addiesdive. I'll look forward to what yourself and Dave might bring to the topic. Thanks. 👍
Most recently I've been purchasing homage parts, for extremely cheap. These parts have all seemed really good quality, even pretty water resistant. So my version of "modding" is very affordable ,so I'm happy
@@cosmalas7742 I've also gotten into building my own watches. The parts you can buy is just amazing. Some come from aliexpress and some come from other places. Am
There's always a balance. Homages will more often than not end up living in a watch box, but Seiko apologetics reasoning away a 1000 dollar watch with dust in the crystal, and a misaligned bezel don't see the reality of it either. Watch prices overall are going up unreasonably, at least from major brands. The watch industry is in a place that it hasn't been in in more than half a century and that's really cool, but the culture of buying 10 watches every few months that never get worn is overall damaging
I wish I could make sense of Seiko's strategy. In Q2 this year the entire group netted $500k and they seemed to be reporting that it was their sub-brands like Alba and Lorus that were making all the money, especially in quartz & digital.
@@MichaelWerneburg It just feels like they have an unreasonable want to get out of the value market but without an actual plan in how to do it and without putting any effort into it
@@spookshelves9834 That doesn't surprise me. The book I quoted on the meaning of brand above said that that would be the hardest part for emerging markets to get right. Rolex is probably among the best-managed luxury brands on the planet. And the Japanese are (or were) at least fairly consistent & reliable, which is a big part. I think it'll be interesting to see more of them make the leap from AliExpress to Amazon and then take the next steps. Let's not forget that the watch business isn't terribly rosy at the moment and that manufacturers like Seiko are making all their money on their lower-end, made-in-China quartz offerings.
Hey Dave thanks for another great video. I have about Fifty or so watches in my collections some of which are Chinese made homages along with Seiko, Citizen, Bulova, and Casio pieces mixed in. I love the homages because I get to experience watch designs that I would never get my hands on. The most I'll spend on a watch is $500. At this point in my collecting story I've not found a watch design that I needed to pay $500 or more for but the journey continues. This collecting style works for me but everyone should do what works in their own lives. Buy and wear what makes YOU happy. . This is a great collecting community we take part in. I am really enjoying the comment section on this one. Keep that great contact coming. Peace!
All valid points. But I must say that the level of finishing on my three Steeldives that I've purchased is excellent. Maybe I've just been lucky but the "Willard" homage that I have is actually better than my Seiko. At least the £100 Steeldive version has a bezel that ACTUALLY lines up perfectly. More than can be said for the Seiko.
Hi Dave. Excellent points. On the whole from my experience with many homage watches, is that they satisfy many people who chase a dopamine hit of another pretty decent watch for less money to add to the "affordable collection" . Its a gateway into an addictive consumption behaviour due to the buzz of getting a pretty watch with with decent spec and often minimal dissapointments. The risks you mentioned are all very real and and happen, but luckily are reasonably rare. Thanks for a great vid 👍
Very true. Honest comment. 👏
Both great content creators
Again, you are presupposing much with your comment about collection. The Steeldive he described above has great specs, and keeps great time. Some people wear watches to tell time.
I think that people who buy expensive authentic watches get the exact same dopamine hit.
@@laus7080 I agree. The baseline is higher though. A bit like cars too. When you get a buzz, you want it again.
Great job of exposing the issues here without being negative or judgemental. Developing intellectual property and brand value is expensive, and it is IMO worth paying for. Those intangible "value" components add to my enjoyment of the product and the hobby. Thanks Dave!
I think, for me, it all comes down to value. I pick up a Pagani Design Sub homage and think to myself "this is worth about $100" and I pick up a Rolex Submariner and think "this is worth maybe $1,500" and I put back the Rolex not because its too costly but because I feel the value and price tag don't align. Same thing happened recently when I bought a new car. I had enough money to cover the purchase price of a BMW X5 but bought a Toyota Highlander instead, simply because I felt the Highlander's price was closer to what I deemed its value to be. As in anything, houses, cars, RV's, jewelry, watches, appliances, etc... just because a manufacture writes a certain MSRP on it does not mean that's is what cost to produce or is worth, supply and demand actually decide that.
Well said.
My experience with Chinese movements is very positive. The 2824 clone in my tauchmeister has been running reliably for years and only needs time adjustment once a month. Other Chinese movements I own I have a similar experience with.
My first watch in my obsession was a SD1970 Willard, no logo. I was mesmerized by it & 30+ watches later, I still love it & is one of 3 beaters in my rotation (other 2: Seiko Prospex solar “Safarnie” & Islander ISL-28 original sunburst dial, modded with 2-tone Strapcode band & steel bezel for yacht master look)
Good video, Dave. I have 5 AliExpress watches. I also have Casios, Timex, Seiko, many microbrands and Swiss watches, including Rolex and Tudor. The AliExpress watches are the best value of any watches. I have a PD-1664 that is a stunner and cost a fraction of a percent of the cost of a rose gold Daytona. I have an Addiesdive vintage diver that is equal in specs, quality, dial and case finishing to microbrands 5 times its price (and its vintage Omega lyre lug case pairs nicely with the vintage Sub dial).
The PD watches look damn good.. I am curious, what is the quality like first hand, holding it?
@@micway71 PD-1664 quality is excellent. It has a Seiko VK63 movement, sapphire crystal, ceramic bezel, nice case finishing, excellent rubber strap. Details look great, even under a loupe. It gets positive attention from everyone who sees it and I love wearing it. I paid $65. I don't know how they can sell this much quality for so little $.
@@dannyg6592 I own several Seikos and never a problem with any of them. Two of them are over 20 years. It’s very hard to beat the value of Seiko. Not talking Grand Seiko, though. But thanks for sharing your opinions. PD makes a good looking watch!
@@dannyg6592 Totally with you except for 1 caveat: You mention rubber strap. That's probably a great move, as the bracelet, especially the very weak, thin and wobbly clasp, is a true danger spot IMO. I love the 1644 and it punches well above its weight, but in the back of my mind, I do worry that the clasp will fail. I guess I could then replace it though.
@@MessagingMatters And that is why I got the 1664. All the reviews of the metal bracelet have said it is subpar.
Hi Dave. Hope you're ok.
I would tend to agree with you regarding Aliexpress watches, but with that said I have two of them (the Steeldive Willard [bizarrely enough] and a Baltany field watch) and they both arrived here in England within 10 days, and I've no complaints about the build quality or QC.
The Willard I am particularly impressed with. Finishing is fine, everything lines up (even Seiko struggles with that!), and the lume is insane.
I got the Baltany after seeing to the video on Honest Watch Reviews, and the Steeldive after seeing several different channels featured it.
Agreed. I was impressed with my Steeldive precisely because of the chapter alignment. I guess you have to pay extra to get them misaligned.
I totally agree with all your points. I am still amazed at how cheaply they can make and sell the homage watches though. You are buying a watch that looks just like the watch that you really want.
In fairness I believe many if not most micro-brands, many Swiss brands and many Japanese brands also have a significant number of components made In China, Indonesia etc. I believe that this is now fairly industry standard.
Unless the company is completely vertically integrated, and doesn’t have production facilities in China, there is no way to avoid Chinese parts in a watch. The companies chased profits at the cost of slave labor outside their borders.
You made some very valid points but I do disagree with some. Especially with the poor finishing. I have a new Pagani Design on my channel and it has really impressive finishing for sub £80. The build is mostly good too with a few minor issues but then again seiko have big qc problems too and so do many established watchmakers. Also if you buy from the right store, after service can really good. If you know what you're doing when shopping these watches are incredible value and do last a long time. Especially if you get one with a seiko movement. Then there's san martin and cronos which imo can easily rival a lot of microbrand watches that cost more. But then again you hit the nail on the head with their lack of design so they're by no means perfect but I can't deny that their value dollar for dollar is hard to beat.
Great video! I totally agree with everything you mentioned.On the flip side, you have all the fashion watch brands (MVMT, Michael Kors, etc.) that charge waaaaay to much for watches that are made in China, have no horological significance, and are basically cheaply made time pieces.
My $4 Daytona homage still going strong after 3 years. Best purchase I made so far.
A year after your comment and I'll bet that your homage is still going strong. If it wasn't for these Chinese companies making cheaper watches that have decent quality and performance, how much would we now be paying for the more up end watches? The profit margins for the more prestigious companies are way out of proportion in relation to their total costs. Thank god designs of watches cannot be patented.
Hi Dave, I agreed with most of your points. But in terms of quality, I suggest your wait till you received your Steeldive Willard homage and give us your comment again. They are quite well made. As for the bigger brand name like Seiko, is terrible at some of their product QC. I think many of us are already victims of their notorious bezel or chapter ring misalignment issue.
AliExpress is “cutting out the middleman” and providing actual “affordable luxury” that the MVMT scammers only talk about. Meanwhile, Seiko can’t give us sapphire crystal or a signed crown under $200.
Seiko won't even give you a signed crown at 1000 euros 🤣🤣🤣
All excellent points. I have built multiple "homage" watches sourcing parts usually from eBay: Franken-watch Rolex homage (with features from the Yacht Master, Milguass, Air King), Seiko Alpinist homage (using mostly Seiko parts), Doxa 200-300 Sub homage (again, mostly Seiko parts) - all because i wanted the look, didn't want to "pay the freight" of the real watch, did each for c$300, and can point to the watch and say "I built that from parts." The pleasure of tinkering and building the homage myself by far outweighs the difference in cost for a $100 homage - at least the me. Good vid. Keep at it!
I own 2 Steeldive watches and have to say that they are a real joy to wear as they have very good build quality and they are both accurate within COSC specs. Hats off to Steeldive for producing quality watches at affordable prices.
I have three homage watches: Bliger “Rolex Explorer” $70, Bliger “Omega Seamaster 300 $80, and Steeldive 1970 “Seiko Willard” $108. All automatic, sapphire crystal, ceramic bezel on 1970, all Seiko NH35 inside, bracelets clasps are solid, milled and incredible, finishing excellent, and on and on. All hack and hand wind. The “worst” timekeeper is under 10 seconds a day. I could go on, but why? Incredible values, proud to wear them!
Agree on some points.
However after handling hundreds of these homages, i can say that I LOVE THEM.
I DONT wanna pay for a company’s marketing campaign.
I just want a great watch for the price.
Qc issues ? Sure there are some. Seiko has no qc issues ? They have MANY.
After sales ? Do you want the hassle of going back & forth ?
Why not just pay 80% less , and no hassle ?
A lot of the qc issues can be solved easily. Dust on dial / crystal ? Easy
I may be biased, but after almost 2 years of these homages, the good stuff FAR outweigh the bad stuff !
Excellent explanations... Most of the time we forget about shipping, customer support and QC.
Hi Dave, I have to say I agree with much of what you say but by no means all. I have a couple of San Martin watches, a bronze flieger and a vintage 1953 sub homage. In both cases, the quality and finishing are fantastic and there have been no QC issues. The customer service was very good with personal messages from SM re despatch and tracking and each arrived in about 10 days to Europe. Both have fantastic specs and have proved super reliable. I have a couple of Steeldive too and although they are good , they are not quite in the San Martin league, but they were cheaper. Super Quick delivery on them too and no problems so far. I also bought a Baltany dirty dozen quartz piece and it is very well made and nicely finished. They are easily a match for some Japanese and even European brands in terms of quality. But I do agree, most lack originality. But for many collectors it’s the only way to experience some of these watch types without taking a gamble on the used market. I suggest that you try San Martin and buy direct rather than through Ali Express. It also sounds like delivery to Japan is a particular local issue for you as the delays you describe don’t seem to be replicated elsewhere.
I don't consider homage watches fake or whatever. I just buy whay I like and let's be realistic - if I buy a Pagani Design Sub it doesn't mean that i really want a Rolex Sub (since I'd never spent so much cash on a watch) but I want something similar for a fair price. BTW Yes, I DO have both a Steeldive Turtle and Tuna (talking about original designs from Seiko - both are close to 50 years old now, practically unchanged) and they are a great value
I totally agree with all of your points. But I would add these points:
- Homages are a good way to find out if you like a watch on-wrist, before plunking down 10-100x the money for the real thing. But homages aren't 1:1 copies so beware.
- I think you're saying that Chinese microbrands are the dubious value, and I agree. I appreciate homages from reputable brands like Steinhart or even Invicta.
- Another reason these Aliexpress watches are so cheap is that labor in China is cheap (unfortunately for the workers) and the government subsidizes shipping to help support the proliferation of Chinese product sales.
It's impossible to stop buying all Chinese made things - they're everywhere. But I'm going to stop buying whimsical things like watches.
'Chinese microbrands'? Do you mean Chinese factory brands? I would definitely not use the term micro to classify these Steeldive/Heimdallr watches etc.
a agree with the sentiment. big brands certainly use Chinese productions(as does Steinhart) but there is at least a modicum of scrutiny because they do have vested interested and reputations. Remember cathy lee giffords sweatshop controversy.
Having owned a great number of microbrand watches, some high end luxury watches, and in the last year or so, a number of San Martin watches, I think that none of the points presented explain the dramatic difference in prices relative to the quality of the watches being offered, except unless one takes into account the profit margin that microbrands introduces.
The level of precision manufacturing on a San Martin puts my other affordables (including microbrands) to shame, and it is reflected in the fact that these are the only affordables in my collection that are still on their OEM bracelets. At the end of the day, most microbrands do the vast majority of their business based on copied designs as well, and they benefit from the same potential economies of scale as these AliExpress watches.
Interesting contribution. Many thanks.
The homage watch brands dont put you on a waiting list and make you have a "buyer history" when you want a watch though
And some of them have been improving their quality, variety and even customer service 🙂
Several points. 1. A watch from Aliexpress normally takes a week to arrive if you live in the UK. 2. I have had issues with watches from China, and they always try to help out. 3, Many high street name watches are actually made in China, regardless of wear the business is based. 4. I own four Seikos, so I know how overpriced and under spec'd they are. 5. Making a homage is not cheap, it just lacks thought. The Chinese know there is a big market for them, so they make them. I am not into Chinese homage watches. but their quality and finish can be excellent, and that will depend on what you spend. A $200 San martin or Proxima is likely to be as well finished as a $1000 Seiko or Tissot
First, I think you're assuming that we're ignorant of basic econiomics. We're not. Ok, some of us might be. But just because I won't spend $1000 on a Seiko Willard doesn't mean I think the Seiko is rip off, it means I won't spend $1000 for a Seiko. So for me it means I either have a Willard homage or I have nothing. And yes, I have the Steel Dive Willard and I find it quite satisfactory for $100.
You opted for the SD Willard instead of the Seiko, by that act alone you are admitting that the original Seiko Willard is a rip-off, aren't you?
haha thank you for sharing your cognitive dissonance so openly.
For 100 bucks Mt steeldive arrived in 14 days, and is literally without fault and runs accurately, I also talked quite a bit with the seller before and after receiving the watch
1. Customer Service: This is absolutely true, but also contingent what kind of watch enthusiast you are. These watches are a great buy if you are an amateur watch tinkerer and want a watch to modify/practice on. SO the obvious answer is, service only matters if it matters, and certainly is irrelevant below a certain price point that is near "disposable."
2. Fit and finish: This one is really hit or miss. I have had a basically perfect finish Cadisen dress watch, and I've had a diver from the same company that had bezel insert misalignment and index alignment issues... only one of those I can fix.
3. Copied design: I am not going to get into the ethical issue here, only how if affects the watch and the buyer. The main problem with an homage... or a "clomage" as is often the case, is that the majority of buyers (at least in the USA) buy these as holdovers for the watch they really want. Few people buy a Pagani Design Seamaster homage because they think it is a great value over the "rip-off" of an Omega; they buy it because they REALLY want the Omega. I am victim to this as well. I bought a Seamaster homage some time ago, and while it was a fine watch, it never really satisfied the itch I was trying to scratch, and I actually got more enjoyment out of my Phoibos Wave Master (a more unique design, and more capable watch). Eventually, I ended up finally finding a real Seamaster that was affordable (before prices skyrocketed). Now, if you truly do not care about homage vs real, then, yes, an homage makes sense insofar as the real deal is objectively NOT 10x the watch to command 10x the price... but it is a better watch, and the homage did short cut all the cost that went into making you want it in the first place, which is your 4th point, and absolutely true.
Unfortunately customer service can be pretty patchy from micro brands right now too.
I've had $300 up in the air for months now with a micro brand. First because I had to wait months for it to come out and then it was later than their announced release date. Then it took a month to get through shipping and customs. Then it was dead on arrival and it took a few days of emailing back and forth to show the watch is dead. Then I had to ship it back and I'm waiting for it to arrive at their facility so they can look at it and decide if they can fix it or send me a replacement.
I'd name the brand but I want the issue resolved first. I want to see the final results of my customer service before I issue final judgement on the matter but as it is now I'm frustrated mainly because I got a broken watch after waiting months after paying for it and they didn't offer any sort of expedited shipping to resolve things quickly.
Likewise (or maybe it's covered in your "wait months for it to come out ..." language), some microbrands are notorious for their watches always being sold out/unavailable. I guess we can look at nice pictures of them instead.
@@MessagingMatters I've definitely noticed some micro brands that have most of their selection out of stock or every model they make is a limited edition kickstarter backed watch with only 500 or 1000 units.
I liked this video, Dave! The subject of Homages vs "Chinese Knockoffs" is a fascinating and difficult one. Yeah, they have a sapphire crystals, it's not the be and end all of watch collecting. "Level of Quality readily to accept" best describes the focus of this topic. Thanks again.
perfectly said dude.
Im very happy with my Steeldive its a great watch and awesome value
I have watches from San Martin and I think they are awesome. I use them at work where I have a tendency to scratch up most of my watches. I also have the Genuine ones such a my Marine Master 300M Seiko which I only wear outside of work.
Well I have a Nibosi 1985 green steel diver from eBay that I paid $50 for that is a very close homage to the Rolex submariner “hulk” and it’s not perfect - but 90% of the quality for less than half a percent of the cost of the Rolex is a pretty good value to me😄 The points made here on quality control are valid though.
Got my first Steeldive last week: 1957 (Omega Seamaster 007 Bond homage). Love it! Excellent value for money. Finishing is very very good. And one aspect is even better than the original: no ugly helium escape valve. That's what i especially like: when they improve upon it. Like how i prefer those larger indices on my Tactical frog FX (Tudor Pelagos FXD homage).
My first and limited experience buying a Chinese watch and opinion on some of the points you mentioned.
1. My Cronos L6016 arrived from China in five days which is just as fast or faster than any product I have bought in the United States, with the exception of buying products from Amazon.
2. My watch has a three year warranty and saying warranty support is nearly nonexistent because you wouldn't take advantage of the warranty doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
3. The finishing is just as good or better as the finishing on my Seiko watches.
4. Most watches look similiar to or a homage of other watches.
5. I don't see how the price of manufacture has anything to do with quality or value.
Your editing is so freaking good!
Thanks! I switched to Davinci Resolve this year. It took me awhile to get comfortable with it, and there's still a ton of features I haven't even started to learn, but I REALLY like it.
San Martin seems to be rising above bargain basement photo-copied watches. Customer service seems good judging by reviews, quality and finish is very good and they have even ventured a little into an original design or two.
All which goes to show that your 5 points are valid Dave.
I love my SM watches. I have 3 . Great watches.
As having a small collection myself I always take time in finding that one watch that checks all the boxess including a watch that I can afford this at this time. I do have some luxxury pieces in my collection like JLC, and Rolex but I also have Seikos and Orients. I have never purchased a homage, but I have purchased watches that have similar styling to a well known design. I prefer watches have their own design queues, eample my Yema Bronze GMT superman, it has the same markers as a Rolex, similar styled GMT bezel but it is not an exact, the 24 hour bezel is somewhat different, markers are smaller and has a unique bezel lock. Now I am not a snob and have no problem with people that do buy homages they do offer a person to have that submariner that they can't afford, as long as they are not stealing the name and being outright fakes like you see being sold by street venders I am OK with other peoples choice in watches
I think the issue is that homages provide people with the opportunity to buy watch that looks like a rolex they can not obtain, not that they cannot afford. I can afford a new submariner at retail. But what I refuse to do is pay for a 1993 model for double the price of a new one. So a san martin homage allows me to have the look and a little bit of the feel of a submariner without playing their game.
Older video, but I think it's fair to mention that Chinese companies do seem to ship very quickly these days. I ordered a San Martin BB Pepsi about a month ago (webstore - I didn't go through Ali Express) and the store offered FedEx premium shipping for free - lots of other stores I've seen offer the same shipping option. Took a little over a week to get here to Germany, but it would've been even faster if I had timed my order better (avoiding weekends, etc).
Re value: I've bought (new) and sold ...errr... five Steinharts. None of them were much older than a year when I sold them on, but: Overall I pretty much lost between just under 20% to ~25% on all of them, with MSRPs ranging from (then) €395 for the OVM 42 to the (again: then) €980 Paul Newman Panda homage. All but one were vintage models, but since my 42 Ceramic Green lost about the same amount as all the vintage models, I'm not sure if that means anything. Using a big German watch-forum, finding a buyer also wasn't much of a hassle - I think the hardest sell took around four weeks from posting the thread to selling it.
Re: Customer service: Steinhart's is excellent, plain and simple. I clumsily dropped my very first Steinhart on a hard floor, putting regulation out of whack and since I was worried about serious damage, I contacted them. They immediately offered to check the watch and fix the regulation issue for free - they even paid the postage. I've also heard that they will fix stuff like lumed bezel-inserts (which can turn yellow on some models) for free - even for second hand owners and for watches that are out of warranty.
Not sure if any of this is applicable to Chinese watches since I've never sold one of those and depsite SM's 2-year-warranty, I'd be hesitant to send mine back to China. It would probably take months for it to get back to me, since I don't believe they use expedited shipping for warranty-stuff.
Thanks Dave 🙏🏼 fantastic topic and covered very nicely... The videos are already phenomenal, yet they're still getting better with each release.
Regards from South Africa 🇿🇦
PS: We're still looking forward to that Review of the Vostok Dress watch you showed us in one of the previous videos (off-white/cream dial)
If you are happy with your purchase and you dont care for reselling value - you are a winner. I adore my San Martin 6200. Its the best ever value for me. It wont be for somebody else.
Depends on what kind of collector you are. I tend to collect based on how the watch looks and its design that may or may not match my outfit of the day.
So the only differences are what you set out? I mean for a item that is sometimes 50, or 100 times less expensive, sign me up.
Not sure this vid is having the effect you think it is.
I always bought Seikos back when I first got into collecting and when they had lower prices. I usually bought second hand then too so as not to get a surprise with misalignment. Now most watches I've added to the collection are from Chinese mushrooms/micros - better value to me....better specs, replaceable movements (I can readily find) and cases/ parts that can be re-used as a mod and I've bought them new. I suppose not paying retail is still the answer for acquiring Seikos but I'm not getting any warranty there either. There are brands with better manufacturing and specs for much less and many are coming out with interesting / riskier designs (or lesser known homages likely). Shipping speed is usually a couple weeks at most. It really boils down to how you define value. I don't care about brands or brand names so if I enjoy wearing it, I'm ok with how it feels and like how it looks and works and knowing it didn't cost much I will have a better experience and that to me equates to value.
This is a really interesting topic Dave.
By no means am I an Homage hater (I wearing one now in fact) but I agree that low prices don't always = value.
Pretty much ᴇᴠᴇʀʏ watch enthusiast I know personally, or simply follow, seems to own at least one homage.
Guys who collect very pricey vintage pieces may own a WMT 'faux' vintage homage or 2 to use as a 'beater' or for when they are in unsafe areas.
Collectors of modern luxury timepieces may own something like a Smiths Everest for the same reason and average guys like most of us probably own a Steinhart, Parnis, San Martin etc. or 2 (at least!).
I think that's a good thing. Where I think it's not such a good thing is if ones entire watch box is full of such homages.
Much better to save more, stifle that urge to impulse purchase and buy less quantity. Then we own a few watches that have some horological merit from brands with a rich history. It truly is, imho, much more satisfying - and no more costly in the long run.
I have to say i have never waited more than 3 weeks. And i have had a fair few. Plus as i had my watches delivered i also got a text asking me if i was satisfied. Plus i have to say, your getting em lining there bezels up more often than not. That said, I still value my seiko's and Orients more. But there are some really good original designs with fantastic specs that are worth the money over and over. Just look around. There is originality.
I am u.k based by the way. Cheers.
I still can't understand how a company like Pagani Design can sell a watch that looks so much like a real Omega Planet Ocean for less than $200--- with a ceramic bezel, and sapphire glass. It shows me that, while the Omega is a great watch, it is vastly overpriced, and for most of us, can never be bought. So, a cheap Chinese homage is not only the only alternative, but a very satisfying one too.
I have owned auto seikos for 35 years now. I bought one in japan in 1991 while in the US Marines, it lasted 28 years and only needed 1 service before its ultimate demise. Ive had 3 others since then. All had some problem rear up within a year. QC isnt what it used to be. My steeldive 1975 has been flawless.
Currently wearing the steeldive you described lmao, it's a solid prospect and if your looking for a beater that goes the extra mile then a steeldive will do it
This was a great video and many well taken points. I have only ever purchased 2 'homage' watches, and I bought them for a specific reason and purpose. I was in the market for the real thing and bought the closest homage I could to see if I liked the size, style, feel, etc on wrist before spending 4 or 5 figures on the real thing. In one case it got me more excited for the real thing and in the other it saved me many thousands of dollars as I found I didn't connect with it on wrist the way I thought I would. So, for that I think homages are a good option. btw, I gave both San Martin watches away after my use for them. Thanks for another GREAT video, thanks for all you do, keep up the great work.
I think you might have to do a follow up video when you receive your steeldive. I have quite a few AliX watches (as well as some Swiss made watches) and the quality is really quite good.
Planning on it!
There is a reason for the different price level for all different watch brands. But definitely the more prestiges or luxurious the brand, the more ripped off. Consumers are willing though, the pride the brand is stamped on the dial is priceless. Those who don't care about branding, the benefits are value as long as he is willing to accept minor flaws.
Excellent video. Good points, even though I don't agree with you a 100% on some of them. I have other problems in mind buying those Ali watches. I am always afraid that people who build those watches are working in a slavery like environment, overtime, no holidays, underpaid etc etc.. I really hope I am wrong, but I always have that bad feeling about those Chinese workers in my mind when buying one. I would gladly pay +20eur for each of those watches if I would be totally sure that people who build them are working in a nice environments with no overtime, weekends off, payed holydays and etc..
@@xPhilz0r yes, I sow those videos. Seems nice. But you never know how much overtime they have to work, do they have weekends and so on..
You can add the cost of an AD network for local presentation, sales, and service vs online sales only. In some cases there is tooling and machinery created in order to manufacture components.
I think most people knew the points you made but it’s good for you bringing them up for the ones who didn’t
Great video!
"If you buy pagani you don't want pagani, you want a rolex". This is true and you are brave to say it.
I'm sick of the sub homages, then again I never really cared for the real thing either...
I agree. I don´t care about the Submariner either. Because they are copied so much, that the look almost becomes generic. Besides that, the real Submariner has a bit too much text on the dial for my taste. There are a lot of rolex watches that I like though.
@@MrPleers I agree and I do own an explorer.
I dont care about marketing or whatever. I just want a good watch for a good price. If thats a Chinese "homage" then so be it. i doubt if Rolex is expecting someone like me to buy their watches. Im not costing them anything.
Dave, I think you're right but you may have missed a couple of points. A $99 NH movement watch with sapphire and some water resistance is an item I am prepared to put in jeopardy. I'll wear it working on my car, or gardening, and if it gets dinged I won't care. My Sumo is perfectly able to manage, but I take it off when I do the dishes. In addition, I might well but a Steeldive Willard to test drive the watch for a few months before dropping $1K on the Seiko original. In both of these cases I'm getting good value.
The real issue is people are comparing apples to oranges. Commenters who say Zelos is poor value compared with Merkur are not comparing like to like - or at least they are limiting the terms of reference to price only. We buy AliEx watches because they are cheap, with very few exceptions. I have a Steeldive (it's good!) but "good value" is all I have to say about it. I can't remember the model name - it was incredibly generic. It looks good, wears well, but has very little soul. My NTH Amphion (the best watch I own?) cost 4x as much and had two prior owners. The saga of getting it shipped to Australia was awful. But that experience helped cement its permanent place in my collection.
You discussed 5 additional considerations, but there are more. I've followed Peter Sargison/2nd Hour watches since the Gin Clear diver was released. I bought one, then a Mandala, and I have ordered a Giant Stride. I'm never going to have that kind of relationship with Heimdallr. I'm interested in Australian and New Zealand watch brands simply because they're local - it makes perfect sense to me that Spaniards might collect Borealis, or New Yorkers would be interested in Hemel. It's about connection, and having interesting watches.
We buy these watches because we think they are cool. We feel a connection to them, to the company and the designer. At the very least they are status symbols, jewelry and markers of achievement. I don't get that with Cronos: no matter how good their Seamaster 300 homage, I'd rather go for an Aerotech Coral Bay.
I agree with your points, but still think Seiko is ripping us off. Even if we added an extra 100 dollars per watch to make up for marketing/R&D/warranty that still puts the Willard at $200 which is 150 less than what seiko asks for their Seiko 5 divers that have misaligned bezels and hardlex crystals.
I disagree with all the points. Homages provide all the value I think at the fraction of a price to the real deal. There's a point where it doesn't make sense to buy a homage of a watch when the real thing costs a hair above but in most cases the real McCoys are just way too expensive for me to purchase and I wouldn't want to wear it in public anyways due to the unnecessary attention it may get. I appreciate homages and feel it gives the end user the right amount of value. Each to his/her own as watches are pretty subjective, thanks for the video but yea I'll just disagree.
To be fair depending on the issue you’re having some stores will still help you out. I had a faulty clasp and reached out to Phylida and they sent me another. I tend to notice that bracelets are the worst part that they skimp on and as much as that sucks, I’m ok with that since I can change straps and the main part of the watch is still pretty ok
You couldn't have said it better! Thanks Dave!
A very fine analyses of why and how the nock off watches can be produces so cheaply.
At the last Ali Sale both watches I ordered came in 2 weeks China to Canada.
Very educational! I have brand watches and some homages, but I never thought about all the "behind the scenes" aspects of them! Thanks Dave!
Value is determined by the buyer. Units sold tells you all you need to know. Tens, or hundreds of millions of consumers have voiced their opinion that these watches provide them with tremendous value.
1. My shipping speed on a watchdives/steeldive/addiesdive/etc is usually 2 days on Amazon prime.
2. When the movement costs me $35 to replace, why would I care about customer service? If it has cosmetic defects Amazon will replace it no questions asked.
3. The "cost" of developing a 70 year old design is paid for by selling obscenely inflated watches for 70 years.
Just because a watch has good specs doesn’t mean it’s been well put together.
Personally I’d rather buy a Seiko with hardlex, aluminium bezel, pressed clasp, than buy some dodgy watch off Ali Express with sapphire, ceramic, and a milled clasp. I really don’t care about that stuff as much as I care about build quality, water proofing, and warranty.
I have a steeldive willard, blue sterile dial, and a Seiko turtle save the ocean, and I have to say the steeldive is great for the price.
You are absolutely spot on, well done!!!
Good point on the topic at hand. They're a value for a reason.
Now if only Seiko invested in actual QC, it might be worth to consider as being a good value.. When you compare a Cronos or a San Martin or Heimdallr or the same Steeldive with a real Seiko the latter often leaves a lot to be desired. Pressed clasps, hardlex, misalligned bezels? So 1990s..
Sea-gull Ocean Star watches. All original designs. In house movements. China made in Tianjin. I love them.
Interesting topic and I would agree with most of the points you raised. However, is it just me, or has Seiko's QC dropped since it started charging so much more for their products? My Seikos that I had in the 1980s were so much cheaper than comparative Seiko models nowadays but with much better quality control.
I've nothing against Seiko, but one could argue the additional cost of their current watches are pumped back into marketing rather that QC....regrettably.
Nope, It's not you. Seiko's prices go up. But QC is pretty much as dissapointing as it ever was.
True, my Seiko got dust specks on the dial
Purchased several Pagani Rolex homage watches from both Amazon and Ali Express and most were below $125 and it offers a very good watch. Also, Heimdallr offers a great Grand Seiko homage pieces. BLUF - both watch brands are out of China.
Liked that Font and effect you used for the countdown text, good choice there
Great topic. One additional point I’d like to make: when companies like Steel Dive and San Martin copy the design down to the last detail, minus the logo: it’s not an homage, it’s a knock-off. Homages are interpretations of an original, not copies.
Personally, I don’t go for these because…
A) I won’t be satisfied with a knock-off, and would rather not buy one if I can’t afford the real thing.
B) There are an endless number of incredible and affordable original watches out there.
FWIW, I don’t think it’s wrong to buy one at all. It just doesn’t do it for me. Always do what makes you happy and avoid what doesn’t.
I agree with pretty much everything you discussed. I will however make one argument and that is, companies like Pagani are improving their QC based on customer feedback. For example, the PD1644 was a nice watch when I was released a few years ago but it definately had some issues like only 50m of WR but customers complained and they upped the WR to 100 with is definately acceptable for a chronograph. The other thing that they did was make the 3 dials fully functional as the specs would suggest on a more expensive brand like Rolex, something that seiko hasn't done with their Panda chrono. I am absolutely in love with my Pagani and plan on buying and reviewing more of their watches but what you get for the money is unbeleivable. If I ever have the money to purchase more watches at a higher caliber I definately will because I beleive have g a well rounded collection is what makes this hobby exciting. Thanks for the great review and knowledge.
Great video Dave, thanks, Value cannot be measured in $’s alone, I am lucky enough to have a Longines hydro conquest and a Tissot Le Locle, I also have a Seiko 5 and a couple of Chinese Homages. What I find is that I gain a lot more pleasure from actually visiting a local jeweller and purchasing a mainstream brand than I do from waiting 2 months for the post to arrive. I also get pleasure from hunting the bargain, eg, Black Friday sales etc. My Longines came with a 22.5% discount and my Tissot with a 50% discount.
Ordered and waiting for a Steeldive Willard. Will use it as a true beater, saving my Seiko SPB151 Willard for "Nicer" outings. At about €90 shipped it was an easy decision.
Totally agree. I can't have an homage, I tried with the alpha big red daytona, a beautiful copy... but I never forgot it was a copy.
The time you wait to receive the homage vs the time you sit on Rolex’s waiting list till they deem you worthy 😂
I have a few San Martin watches and they are great . . Better then my seiko watches. My SM dive watch is better then my steinhart ocean one that cost 50% more . Also if I get ripped off for my San Martin I only lose a $300 watch . If I lose my tudor BB58 i am out $4 500 .
if I could steer anyone away from cheaper homages, generally the difference between the homage and the real deal is the size specs. It is soooo worth it in my opinion to pay for a thinner watch and unless you are okay wearing 42mm, any automatic watch under 41mm that is under $400 will probably be 12+mm thick. A thick watch is okay for the weekend, so If you want a cool cheap dive watch to wear to the beach by all means go for it, but for an everyday watch it is worth the money to get a thinner watch. on the market I typically see 42mm and 10.5 thick or 40mm and 13mm thick or 40mm and 11mm thick with a domed crystal. I also think it is worth it to not have a domed crystal, although a domed crystal has a cool retro look, their is always a glare and it gets bothersome. if you look at $200 watches make the jump to $500, its worth it!
I disagree with your last 3 points. The third one is basically the sunk cost fallacy, the brands that designed the watches already made millions out of it and also positioned the brands very highly, if they can’t come up with new original designs before design patents expire then it’s their problem. The 4th point: no marketing needed is actually a great thing, these watches have so much value that there are hundreds of RUclips videos talking good things about them, I don’t think there is better marketing than that. Fifth point is just silly, do you think Seiko does not mass produce parts? I don’t see why this is “bad” only for homage brands.
From my own experience with a Seiko 5: bezel disalignment, movement +60 seconds and the closest official customer service is literally in another country (I’m currently in Sweden and I would have to mail it to Norway). So tell me how that justifies the 200 dollars price difference?