@@Vortex1036 I’m aware :-). The purpose of the statement was to possibly help/show how we think/feel as 5’s... as well as show his own awesome personal growth.
Ever since tapping into and living my feelings in the moment, I have realized just how emotional I am. It's scary at times, but it really does take the edge off. For the first time in my 23 years on this planet, I feel open and honest with the world and myself
That comment about microscopes and telescopes killed me. I can't tell you how many times I've said the exact words, "I could spend all day looking through either a microscope or telescope," sometimes followed by "...as long as I don't have to deal with people." Once I got to microbiology in college I realized just how much I loved microscopy. This made me recall the days of my youth when I was obsessed with astronomy and the perspective lent by gazing up at the moon and thinking about how small I was and how insignificant our little human problems are in the grand scheme of things. Yet, as much as the micro and macro perspectives are opposites, they are strikingly similar in that they both offer the opportunity to peer into a foreign universe and analyze its intricacies... from a relatively safe distance. With microscopy, there's the additional unique benefit that, even though a fair amount of people can Gram-stain E. coli, for instance, technically you are the only person capable of seeing what you're seeing on your slide at the exact moment you see it. This is unlike anything in our macroscopic world that anyone can view, particularly celestial events, which can be witnessed by millions. And there is something about that "secret" or "hidden" knowledge we find especially appealing. I'm sure part of this is the 4 wing influence as well. -- 5w4
@@twlahue Thank you for your content! You seem too have one of few channels on the enneagram that isn't just a series of comical skits. Btw, do you ever plan on doing a series about the sp/sx/so variants for each type?
As a 5, the fear of being overtaken is very real to me. When I tell someone that I can fix computers, and then I become their go-to guy for tech support, I feel betrayed. "I told you that I was good at computers because we were friends, not because I wanted to be your geek squad." -- frequently told to people in my early 30's.
Part of the difficulty of trying to lean toward the 6 side and gather information from the experience of the community is that since the advent of the Internet, 5s have access to the community wisdom without actually interacting with people in the real world. Having access to the community through the Internet is better than nothing, but it only SEEMS to fulfil the need to connect with others, to the point where many 5s spend so much time interacting electronically with others and feeling as if they are actually relating to them in real life, but that won't help them find friends or a significant other/family in the real world. Many 5s are aware of this and realize they are lonely, but have no connection to others outside of a job, and not much confidence in making friends by joining a club or... or... how DO you make friends in the real world? Especially if you aren't athletic?
I'm not a 5, but there is an App called meetup and it's a way of connecting with people in person who like the same things as you. There are a bunch of different categories and hobbies you can join and meet people in. That's one way and I think the easiest way for a 5 that's connected by the internet to migrate to meeting people in real life.
I plan to dig further into this enneagram thing, I’m finding it interesting while on a current self exploration phase. The 5 seems to resonate a fair bit. As to your question, I’m a musician, which seems to be an odd choice for a 5. There’s social interaction built into that profession, so I do have friends within that circle. At this point I could speculate that my fiveish qualities have certainly inhibited some areas of “success” in the entertainment business.
AS a 5 I think I can help a bit, its not that we don't feel but rather when it makes us feel. Lets say something happened, we get the news (still no feelings are triggered so we think clearly), then when we get some time to think alone, thats when the feelings appear, but it makes no sense to react so late so we don't show our emotions. Its like whatever happened only exists in terms of emotions after we had time to absolve it. You can call us slow I guess...
5w6 here. Anyone else have a problem with striking a balance in life? I think a 5 is at their fullest potential and utility when everything is done in moderation ie introspective thinking, social engagement, physical activity but I often get tunnel visioned on any one of the things in an attempt to master it before I move on to the next
Excellent video once again Dr. Tom. I relate to all of this. I especially appreciate the tip about going to the seven before going to the eight. Fear of being incompetent is really holding me back in life, I’m learning to loosen up and not take myself so seriously.
Completely agree!!! Using the Enneagram to strengthen *relationships* and better understand others we care about (great for personal growth too, but full potential is so much more). Powerful. 5w4
Me too! I'm learning so much about my family and what their core fears are! I love my family but they are so unhealthy and it makes sense why they behave the way they do! I'm trying to get them interested because I want them to be happy and not stressed all the time!
As a 5W6, I would argue this as the most encompassing position on the Enneagram. When I'm emotional I go to my 4 wing. When I'm stressed, I become entertaining--mostly self-deprecation humor--as a distraction (my 7), and when I feel I know enough to espouse, I become my best 8. Thus I move from 4-8 which is mostly in my comfortable 'thinking' realm, but touching into both 'feeling' and 'instinct'. Y'alls thoughts?
I’m a 5w4 I totally get becoming entertaining when I’m stressed. I’ve never seen anyone else talk about that, but it’s true. I morph into a little jester. But When I feel secure I move away from that and definitely feel more 8 like.
If you have ever seen the movie Dreamcatcher, the scenes about being in the guys head with all the filing cabinets and how he kept special memories in different places of his mind. Thats kind of how I envision my own mind.
Thank you! What you are doing is **very** valuable. 💚 4w5 here. Knowing myself through help of generous and kind souls like you makes me feel like life is a challenge I can accomplish.
I am a 5 and this video was very helpful for me. I hate that it's so hard for me to share myself...my knowledge, observations and feelings (especially feelings because they are hard for me to even understand). It's so very true that part of this stinginess (with reference to knowledge) is simply because I know I don't know it all and so I really feel unqualified to share. Your video helped me see that it's ok to not be an expert 😜 lol The only part that didn't ring true for me was the door greeter scenario...I would see it as rude if someone has the "job" of door greeter to not greet them. To elaborate on that situation though, when I enter a large group I am only able to greet 1-3 people before I feel driven to find my seat. So I will walk past the majority of people without saying anything. I have a hard time mingling. And when I do, I will primarily ask questions...It is disconcerting to me to share personal information about myself in passing. But I guess I expect others to share with me 🤦🏻♀️ ugh...need to work on that! Thanks again for this video.
As an 8(w9) with a strong 5 fix, I am impacted by a lot of what this video talks about, which is strange to have different levels of development within different types.
Absolutely, a feeling folder is exactly it. I just said this to someone a few weeks ago after a dramatic people situation. I said it's over, I see clearly what's going on, I don't need anybody to understand, its filed somewhere over here and I am moving on from this. ( I pointed up towards the back of my head)
As a 5, I like a surprise I can prepare for.. like if there's a party, I just need to know to keep my schedule open at that time. Or if I'm getting a present, I'd like to know the general direction of it (tech, clothing, etc.). As a 5w4, I get super sensitive and bummed during Christmas with most of the gifts I get that I don't have an idea of beforehand. It almost always feels like the person doesn't "get me" even if it was something they picked out especially for me... but then I just need an explanation/clarification of why and I'm good 🤣 definitely working on this
Thank you so much for these videos, they've been helping me a lot to understand myself and my people. I'm a 4 wing 5 and, man, it's a struggle to move to a healthier mental state 😅. But I'm glad I have the access to these informations (and I really appreciate your effort to understanding us downers lol) ty ty 🥰
This was really helpful. I'm a problem solver but sometimes I do tend to miss out on that introspective approach that 4's have, I tend to just forget that this is something important and viable. And despite being a 5 I do thrive the most when I'm engaged, active, social. I just tend to forget it so often! It sounds so ridiculous but this is what being a 5 is: constantly getting blind on the best and the most enjoyable aspect of your live and switching into the 'remote' mode. I also have to mention that Gandalf and Dumbledore are my favourite characters in their respective narratives: the perfect integrated wizards!
I don’t fear being over taken. But, I am easily overwhelmed by certain social situations. So I’m always trying to look out for those situations and plan for them so I can function.
I enjoy your videos in small doses ( overwhelming information) I must be a five because I so understand what your saying ! Helpless defeated and over taken by others ! Truth ! I’m very minimalistic since I’m older because I get depleted a lot faster ! I’m married to a seven /eight wing ,so he alone can deplete my energy 😉 I don’t have a lot of energy for a lot of other socializing . You can imagine the early years of our marriage were a wild canoe ride ! My husband says I would become a hermit without him. 😅 After almost 37 years of marriage we found a lot of balance.
When I was younger and not matured in my basic understanding of how life “works,” I thought about people draining my energy ALL of the time. 😅 Thankfully, I broke out of that social anxiety over time and I am not consumed by it. Instead, I look at myself and my energy as a resource and I understand that if I do this depleting event then I must schedule soon after it a filling event. For example, I am going to book club so this afternoon I am going to turn the TV on for my toddler at home so I have a definitive break to recharge.
We feel our feelings very deeply, we just process through them alone, or with someone we trust. It is embarrassing for us to show feelings and deep emotions to others especially those we don’t know well. We COMMUNICATE our feelings to others cerebrally. At least that’s how I am as a 5
Definitely me. Im scared to pull the trigger on my own abilities. I subconsciously avoid using my mass & probably ridiculous amount of study hoping I can share what I've learned expecting them to get it based on my own merit.
I would absolutely agree with saying that I sometimes dont feel my feelings. When my grandmother died I would think about how absolutely awful it was and uncontrollably cry without actually feeling the pain itself. I though I was going crazy but I guess I just had no way of feeling that much pain so I just tried to come to terms with it in a logical and physical way while leaving the actually heart and emotions out of it.
What’s actually in describing our lowest, just honestly and straightforward in saying that the outer world would suspect that the 5 might had moved into major depression when 5 fear sink into lowest
I'm interested in learning more about the intersection between these levels of health and the subtypes. It sounds here like the SP 5 is the lowest level of health and the SO 5 is the middle level, but I doubt that's what you meant--have you ever done a video to discuss that intersection?
This is intriguing 🤔 cause it feels like I never know enough and everything I do know I’m scarred to share because of some of those exact reasons 9:00 - 9:30 EDIT : Time Stamps
Can u make a video about the interaction style of each type , that would be very helpful , u mentioned in one video that eg 7 it's storytelling , thx :)
TY, 5s integrate other people information if it is in alignment. I don't do DRAMA, surprises, enmeshment, codependency nor group think. Namaste 🕊️ Peace 🤸 Shalom🐵
What do you find are the challenges? I’m 5w4 and asked to lead a pastoral team. I’d like to know what others have seen as their personal development in ministry.
I've been not sure for a long time either am I a 4w5 or a 5w4 (thinking there's a more higher chance of me being a 4w5 because I was an INFP for the 16 personalities), but after my dad saying that "scattered is a good word to describe you now," I've realized I was a stressed 5w4 with a strong w4 (I've noticed some of the aspects in me but I wasn't sure enough to conclude it), well... at least I think so. I'm currently stressed out and I'm doing my best to NOT do ANY kind of school related work because my brain has broken or something and I don't know why, and it's just making the situation even worse!! I just wanna have a brain surgery or change my brain for a healthier one or something. HELP ME BUT PLEASE LEAVE ME ALONE (me for real knows I need help but doesn't really want help).
Did you checked type 9? INFPs are usually 4w5 or 9w1. When I took the test my two highest was 4 and 5, but I am definitely a 9 and as Tom sad some 9 look like 5. (I am INFP too.) Hope you are well now.
@@jazon85k Ya, I do have some aspects of the 9. I've also have some aspects of 6 and 8 (it's my culture that makes them high). One of the reasons I think I have some aspects of 9 is because my tritype is 594 or 495. Also I think it's because I usually refuse any kinds of problems that will make someone get mad at me or something. I refuse it because I'm just fed up. My mom's a 8, so I have a series of long stories of getting scrolled from her for no good reason (or even sometimes no reason and she's just in a bad mood).
I usually really enjoy this channel! However, this is disappointing and a bit bizarre. It does not sound like you have even a basic understanding of fives, which is strange considering how in depth and insightful a lot of your other videos are on different personality types. Your video on 5s sounds like a clinical review, not a conversation about human beings. It doesn't sound like there are any 5s in your life that you truly know or understand. If I'm mistaken in that, I apologize. But you sound either like you don't like 5s or you're very confused by them. Which, I get because we are a bit perplexing. But maybe don't teach about it until there's connection and understanding? 5's are not robots and as we all know, no one personality type can be understood by listing facts out of a book. But, it really sounds like you're reciting a list of things you read versus actual understanding of a person you know.
How can I parse out having qualities of a 5 and having qualities of an INTP? I'm an INTP and feel like I relate to enneagram 5 and 9 equally. I'm wondering if I'm really a 9 but being INTP and very very introverted makes me look like a 5. I'm also female so not sure if the rule applies ("if you're male and not sure if you're 5 or 9 then you're a 9"). I definitely care about social norms and pleasantries, making small talk with strangers, etc. but I'm also a woman...
Look at the core fear of each type and see which one relates to you most. I think that's the only way to know. Also, look at the numbers to which types 5s and 9s disintegrate when under stress. I thought I was a 9 too and I'm also an INTP. 5s disintegrate to unhealthy 7s, and 9s disintegrate to unhealthy 6s. I honestly don't care about small talk with strangers and will avoid it at all costs. And the statements about if you're confused about being a 9 or 5 then you're a 9, doesn't make sense. It could possibly cause people to end up mistyping themselves. I still look and the struggles that type 9s face because I think they can still be of help.
@@mismiserables I definitely relate to type 7, but when I’m acting that way I don’t feel unhealthy. Trying new things and other 7 stuff is what happens when I’m healthy. When I’m unhealthy I shut down.
It's true that type 5 descriptions seem very Ti heavy and introverted, and type 9 descriptions sound very Fe as well as Si in a very Se-PoLR-specific kind of way, so perhaps there's room for conflation, though on both sides. I've also heard enneagram enthusiasts insist that many type 9 INTPs mistype as 5s. It is always the 9s who say this though (possibly projecting?). I identify decently strong with 9w1 and think that's likely part of my tritype, but consider 5w4 my core type. Even after hearing 9s warn supposed 5s of the pitfalls of mistyping themselves, I attempted to reanalyze myself with mustered newfound skepticism and ultimately came to the same conclusion; I'm almost certainly a 5. I don't think we can apply any hard & fast rules here, particularly based on gender (though I'm also female & INTP for whatever it's worth), but there are multiple ways to approach differentiating which fits better. Here are a few I found useful: * Generally speaking, 9s will always move away from intensity, while 5s will move towards it. Nines often want to stay comfortable and keep things on an even keel, while 5s (5w4 esp, I think) enjoys intensity of thought, extremes in sensation, and even emotional intensity (in a 4ish masochistic way or in a "case study" kind of way). * Think about the wings for each type. For other numbers in your tritype, you can probably identify your predominant wing as well. However, with your core type, you really should find elements of both wings you can relate to, even if you identify with one more than the other. So look for areas in which there are 3 #s in a row you can relate to. I relate to 5, 4, and 6 (in that order) all pretty strongly, and they are not even in the same "center" so it's not just about being a "head" type (which might be the case if you related to 5, 6 & 7). This also happens to me with 9, 1, 2, but I'm pretty sure that's because 9w1 & 2w1 are the other #s in my tritype. I could be wrong, of course, but this is my personal theory. * Consider the direction of integration & disintegration for both types. 5 moves toward 8 in growth, challenging people and calling out lies or mistakes with confidence, and seeks novelty & excitement like a 7 when stressed, or feels bad about missed opportunities (at least this is how it manifests for me... I do know what you mean about not seeing unhealthy 7 behaviors in yourself. For instance, I rarely feel "scattered" like the stereotype description for 5 disintegration says. Honestly, the [only?] way in which it makes sense to me is moving towards 7 for stress-relief, to _deal_ with stress. I do sometimes want to ignore problems or deal with them by running away, so perhaps that counts? And like I said, I do mourn squandered opportunities _if_ they were rare opportunities, but this is probably the 4-wing influence as well). 9s on the other hand moves towards 6 in stress and towards 3 in growth. I think it's easy to mistake almost any stress for 6-like qualities because 6s are known for being fearful and anxious. I don't know about you, but the arrow towards 3 is one I really just cannot relate to at all. In fact, 3 is the type on the enneagram I relate to the least (consequently, this is part of how I know I'm not a 4w5). * Compare core fears, as others have mentioned. 9s are afraid of loss, separation, and conflict. 5s are afraid of being incompetent according to many sources (I actually don't relate to this as much), afraid of being helpless, according to Dr. Tom LaHue here (which sounds more relatable to me), but actually, according to other 5s I've spoken to, afraid of being dependent on other people. Perhaps this comes from the 8 arrow, but it really hits close to home for me and makes sense. If you really want to know what that rule is when applied to females though: "average male Nines tend to think that they are Fives. (As noted in the discussion of Twos, average female Nines tend to think that they are Twos.)" And if you haven't already read the article "Misidentifying 5 and 9" from The Enneagram Institute, that might help. Good luck. -- female INTP 5w4
@@heatherbryant4197 thank you! That helps but also makes me confused! I relate a lot to type 8 as well and am not sure if that’s because it’s a wing or because it’s a direction of growth. The thing that makes me feel like I’m not a 5 is that I read that they tend to observe and observe and prepare before jumping in if they ever do. I tend to throw myself into new things and figure it out as I go.
@@eggfishy Interesting. Well, firstly, I'd say, to differentiate a wing from a direction of growth, a wing will likely be something you relate to pretty consistently throughout your life, including in times of stress and unhealthy behavior. You just won't relate to every element of that type. For example, my taste in music and art has always been very 4ish, for as long as I can remember. I don't like songs that seem too happy or upbeat. I am drawn to the dark, the painful parts of life that build character and touch on more meaningful topics. I have also noticed when I'm upset about something, I often force myself to stay upset, the 4 quality of "inhabiting a mood" and some of that masochism. But other 4 traits, like being dramatic or wanting to attract a "rescuer," what I call "damsel in distress syndrome," I don't relate to at all, and have little respect for. 5s value independence too much to want to be rescued or saved like a helpless animal. With the direction of growth, you should really only be adopting a "healthy" version of those traits. And it might only be something you find yourself relating to only as you get older. For the longest time, I actually used to say that 8 & 3 were the two types I didn't relate to at all. I saw 8s as angry bullies (maybe a bit stereotyped). But I eventually came to identify with a few traits. As I've gotten older I've become more comfortable being assertive and don't feel bad about putting people on the spot or making them feel uncomfortable if they are in the wrong. In fact, there's a small part of me that enjoys making people feel uncomfortable lol. But I think this has only developed with age. When I catch a stranger staring at me in public, I will sometimes stare back at them and force them to avert their gaze and be the first to break eye contact. I realize in retrospect this is a very "alpha"/dominance thing and mostly unlike me, i.e. my self-concept. I probably never would have done this as a child or teenager. I also have the "don't be a pussy" internal dialog that 8s have, but this could perhaps also be due to having no sisters and growing up around boys. There are lots of other 8 traits, like being comfortable with anger, that I really don't relate to. I'd also think about the wings for 9 and 5. Do you relate to both 4 and 6? What about 1? There is also a third possibility that you have an 8 in your tritype. Or even that your core type is 8w9, depending on how much you relate to 8. It is true that 5s prefer to sit back and observe on the sidelines, but I wouldn't say it's necessarily to prepare. I think this is more true for IxxJ type 5s, especially INTJs or maybe IxTJs generally (though ISTJs are more often 6s or 1s). When you have a type 5 with strong Ti, they often have no plans for their knowledge and learn for the sake of knowledge itself, unbothered by whether there is any real practical application. Most of what I observe I simply want to understand and have no plan to utilize that knowledge practically. Honestly, we learn a lot of relatively useless crap just because it is interesting to us. But we will rationalize it with the reasoning that "you never what might happen; maybe some day I'll be able to use this knowledge, and no one else will know it but I'll be able to pull it out of my back pocket and save the day." We really only want control over ourselves, but this seemingly useless knowledge gives us a sense of control over the unknowns of the future to secure our survival and competence. Those improvisational skills and tendency to jump in without hesitation don't sound particularly INTP-ish, but I think it really depends on whether you're talking about physical improvising or ideational improvising, which we could roughly associate with Se or Ne, respectively (and, therefore, also type 7). If you mean something like writing an impromptu speech on the fly or making up your argument as you go in a debate or taking a test without studying, that's still consistent with the INTP's Ne. But if you're really good at figuring out mechanical things or performing physical tasks you've never done before with no preparation, that seems inconsistent with INTP's Se blindspot. We can work around the weak Se with Si, so if you've practiced before it will eventually become muscle memory. But if it's something completely foreign it can be a little terrifying, especially if it's something you have to do with other people watching. I had a bad habit of rarely reading the textbook for most of my classes bc I could wing it on exams, or just cram the night before. But you better believe I always read the lab manual bc I did not want to be caught having no clue what I was doing when it came to physical tasks in experiments I'd never conducted before or things like preparing a culture or slide for the microscope. Being caught floundering in any academic realm can be pretty mortifying. I guess maybe this is Se blind viewed through the lens of inferior Fe. Anyway, I was just wondering, do you think there's a chance you could be an ISTP or another similar type with stronger Se? Even ENTPs have better Se and also tend to give off that 7ish improvisational "winging it" energy. Actually, if you were an 8, and only went to 5 in stress (perhaps the "shut down" you mentioned?), that could explain relating to both 9 and 7 but seeing neither as negative... Or if you had 8 in your tritype maybe. Just food for thought. To be fair, I think 5s also shut down under extreme stress, but it can hard for others to notice bc they're so withdrawn and stoic to begin with. Going from quiet & calm to silent & apathetic is a change that is difficult for many people to recognize, unless they are practiced at trying to read your body language. I think the change from 8 to 5 would be more noticeable. I don't know many 8s, but when I think about the ones I do, I think their relationship with 5 energy might be similar to my relationship with 7 energy; bc in the heat of the moment they are not very 5ish when upset... it seems more likely a coping mechanism for stress. They delve into quiet research to escape much the way I seek novelty to escape reality? 🤔 I'm no expert, but this is what is starting to look like to me at the moment.
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You stated at the beginning “The more I study, the more I realize I don’t know”... very 5ish of you ;-)
He's actually a 7
@@Vortex1036 I’m aware :-). The purpose of the statement was to possibly help/show how we think/feel as 5’s... as well as show his own awesome personal growth.
Ever since tapping into and living my feelings in the moment, I have realized just how emotional I am. It's scary at times, but it really does take the edge off. For the first time in my 23 years on this planet, I feel open and honest with the world and myself
I personally don't like surprises because I can't plan for them, they catch me off guard
That comment about microscopes and telescopes killed me. I can't tell you how many times I've said the exact words, "I could spend all day looking through either a microscope or telescope," sometimes followed by "...as long as I don't have to deal with people." Once I got to microbiology in college I realized just how much I loved microscopy. This made me recall the days of my youth when I was obsessed with astronomy and the perspective lent by gazing up at the moon and thinking about how small I was and how insignificant our little human problems are in the grand scheme of things. Yet, as much as the micro and macro perspectives are opposites, they are strikingly similar in that they both offer the opportunity to peer into a foreign universe and analyze its intricacies... from a relatively safe distance. With microscopy, there's the additional unique benefit that, even though a fair amount of people can Gram-stain E. coli, for instance, technically you are the only person capable of seeing what you're seeing on your slide at the exact moment you see it. This is unlike anything in our macroscopic world that anyone can view, particularly celestial events, which can be witnessed by millions. And there is something about that "secret" or "hidden" knowledge we find especially appealing. I'm sure part of this is the 4 wing influence as well. -- 5w4
Thanks for your insight Heather.
@@twlahue Thank you for your content! You seem too have one of few channels on the enneagram that isn't just a series of comical skits. Btw, do you ever plan on doing a series about the sp/sx/so variants for each type?
As a 5, the fear of being overtaken is very real to me. When I tell someone that I can fix computers, and then I become their go-to guy for tech support, I feel betrayed. "I told you that I was good at computers because we were friends, not because I wanted to be your geek squad." -- frequently told to people in my early 30's.
Right it took 8 years to tell people I had a graphic design degree after moving
Part of the difficulty of trying to lean toward the 6 side and gather information from the experience of the community is that since the advent of the Internet, 5s have access to the community wisdom without actually interacting with people in the real world. Having access to the community through the Internet is better than nothing, but it only SEEMS to fulfil the need to connect with others, to the point where many 5s spend so much time interacting electronically with others and feeling as if they are actually relating to them in real life, but that won't help them find friends or a significant other/family in the real world. Many 5s are aware of this and realize they are lonely, but have no connection to others outside of a job, and not much confidence in making friends by joining a club or... or... how DO you make friends in the real world? Especially if you aren't athletic?
I'm not a 5, but there is an App called meetup and it's a way of connecting with people in person who like the same things as you. There are a bunch of different categories and hobbies you can join and meet people in. That's one way and I think the easiest way for a 5 that's connected by the internet to migrate to meeting people in real life.
I plan to dig further into this enneagram thing, I’m finding it interesting while on a current self exploration phase. The 5 seems to resonate a fair bit.
As to your question, I’m a musician, which seems to be an odd choice for a 5. There’s social interaction built into that profession, so I do have friends within that circle. At this point I could speculate that my fiveish qualities have certainly inhibited some areas of “success” in the entertainment business.
The combination of being a 5 with autism comes to very isolating challenges
Yeah me and you both
AS a 5 I think I can help a bit, its not that we don't feel but rather when it makes us feel. Lets say something happened, we get the news (still no feelings are triggered so we think clearly), then when we get some time to think alone, thats when the feelings appear, but it makes no sense to react so late so we don't show our emotions. Its like whatever happened only exists in terms of emotions after we had time to absolve it. You can call us slow I guess...
5w6 here. Anyone else have a problem with striking a balance in life? I think a 5 is at their fullest potential and utility when everything is done in moderation ie introspective thinking, social engagement, physical activity but I often get tunnel visioned on any one of the things in an attempt to master it before I move on to the next
Excellent video once again Dr. Tom. I relate to all of this. I especially appreciate the tip about going to the seven before going to the eight. Fear of being incompetent is really holding me back in life, I’m learning to loosen up and not take myself so seriously.
As much as I love learning about my type, I think it's even more helpful to learn about those in my life. My husband is a 5w6 and this was so helpful
I totally agree!
Completely agree!!! Using the Enneagram to strengthen *relationships* and better understand others we care about (great for personal growth too, but full potential is so much more). Powerful. 5w4
Me too! I'm learning so much about my family and what their core fears are! I love my family but they are so unhealthy and it makes sense why they behave the way they do! I'm trying to get them interested because I want them to be happy and not stressed all the time!
As a 5W6, I would argue this as the most encompassing position on the Enneagram. When I'm emotional I go to my 4 wing. When I'm stressed, I become entertaining--mostly self-deprecation humor--as a distraction (my 7), and when I feel I know enough to espouse, I become my best 8. Thus I move from 4-8 which is mostly in my comfortable 'thinking' realm, but touching into both 'feeling' and 'instinct'.
Y'alls thoughts?
I’m a 5w4 I totally get becoming entertaining when I’m stressed. I’ve never seen anyone else talk about that, but it’s true. I morph into a little jester. But When I feel secure I move away from that and definitely feel more 8 like.
If you have ever seen the movie Dreamcatcher, the scenes about being in the guys head with all the filing cabinets and how he kept special memories in different places of his mind. Thats kind of how I envision my own mind.
Thank you! What you are doing is **very** valuable. 💚
4w5 here. Knowing myself through help of generous and kind souls like you makes me feel like life is a challenge I can accomplish.
I wouldn't have even noticed the tooth without your mentioning :) You're cool no matter what!
Gracias... (with a slight lisp).
I am a 5 and this video was very helpful for me. I hate that it's so hard for me to share myself...my knowledge, observations and feelings (especially feelings because they are hard for me to even understand). It's so very true that part of this stinginess (with reference to knowledge) is simply because I know I don't know it all and so I really feel unqualified to share. Your video helped me see that it's ok to not be an expert 😜 lol
The only part that didn't ring true for me was the door greeter scenario...I would see it as rude if someone has the "job" of door greeter to not greet them. To elaborate on that situation though, when I enter a large group I am only able to greet 1-3 people before I feel driven to find my seat. So I will walk past the majority of people without saying anything. I have a hard time mingling. And when I do, I will primarily ask questions...It is disconcerting to me to share personal information about myself in passing. But I guess I expect others to share with me 🤦🏻♀️ ugh...need to work on that!
Thanks again for this video.
As an 8(w9) with a strong 5 fix, I am impacted by a lot of what this video talks about, which is strange to have different levels of development within different types.
Absolutely, a feeling folder is exactly it. I just said this to someone a few weeks ago after a dramatic people situation. I said it's over, I see clearly what's going on, I don't need anybody to understand, its filed somewhere over here and I am moving on from this. ( I pointed up towards the back of my head)
What the hell _are_ feelings? How do you know when you're _feeling_ a feeling rather than _thinking_ about it?
As a 5, I like a surprise I can prepare for.. like if there's a party, I just need to know to keep my schedule open at that time. Or if I'm getting a present, I'd like to know the general direction of it (tech, clothing, etc.). As a 5w4, I get super sensitive and bummed during Christmas with most of the gifts I get that I don't have an idea of beforehand. It almost always feels like the person doesn't "get me" even if it was something they picked out especially for me... but then I just need an explanation/clarification of why and I'm good 🤣 definitely working on this
Thanks for the video! Here's a somewhat remote expert who is now inspired to be an integrated wizard!
Any other 5s find it irresistible to type out their friends and family and watch the videos on them as well?
Your growth line to 5 makes so much sense!!!
Thank you so much for these videos, they've been helping me a lot to understand myself and my people. I'm a 4 wing 5 and, man, it's a struggle to move to a healthier mental state 😅. But I'm glad I have the access to these informations (and I really appreciate your effort to understanding us downers lol) ty ty 🥰
Thanks, I am glad to help.
"and often you find a five on the other side of a microscope" as a 4w5 laboratory technician I had to facepalm hard at that one 😑
This was really helpful. I'm a problem solver but sometimes I do tend to miss out on that introspective approach that 4's have, I tend to just forget that this is something important and viable. And despite being a 5 I do thrive the most when I'm engaged, active, social. I just tend to forget it so often! It sounds so ridiculous but this is what being a 5 is: constantly getting blind on the best and the most enjoyable aspect of your live and switching into the 'remote' mode. I also have to mention that Gandalf and Dumbledore are my favourite characters in their respective narratives: the perfect integrated wizards!
I don’t fear being over taken. But, I am easily overwhelmed by certain social situations. So I’m always trying to look out for those situations and plan for them so I can function.
I enjoy your videos in small doses ( overwhelming information) I must be a five because I so understand what your saying ! Helpless defeated and over taken by others ! Truth ! I’m very minimalistic since I’m older because I get depleted a lot faster ! I’m married to a seven /eight wing ,so he alone can deplete my energy 😉 I don’t have a lot of energy for a lot of other socializing . You can imagine the early years of our marriage were a wild canoe ride ! My husband says I would become a hermit without him. 😅 After almost 37 years of marriage we found a lot of balance.
That is great. Thanks for sharing.
When I was younger and not matured in my basic understanding of how life “works,” I thought about people draining my energy ALL of the time. 😅 Thankfully, I broke out of that social anxiety over time and I am not consumed by it. Instead, I look at myself and my energy as a resource and I understand that if I do this depleting event then I must schedule soon after it a filling event. For example, I am going to book club so this afternoon I am going to turn the TV on for my toddler at home so I have a definitive break to recharge.
We feel our feelings very deeply, we just process through them alone, or with someone we trust. It is embarrassing for us to show feelings and deep emotions to others especially those we don’t know well. We COMMUNICATE our feelings to others cerebrally. At least that’s how I am as a 5
Gotta show up as a 7 at times before arriving at the 8. Very true especially for beginning mastery in a subject
Definitely me. Im scared to pull the trigger on my own abilities. I subconsciously avoid using my mass & probably ridiculous amount of study hoping I can share what I've learned expecting them to get it based on my own merit.
My brother is definitely a 5. This is him to a T. It's like you met my brother and got into his basic psychology.
I so appreciate you Tom! (I’m a 5w4 or 4w5, and had a hard time saying anything more, for fear ‘appearing’ self absorbed 🙃).
I would absolutely agree with saying that I sometimes dont feel my feelings. When my grandmother died I would think about how absolutely awful it was and uncontrollably cry without actually feeling the pain itself. I though I was going crazy but I guess I just had no way of feeling that much pain so I just tried to come to terms with it in a logical and physical way while leaving the actually heart and emotions out of it.
What’s actually in describing our lowest, just honestly and straightforward in saying that the outer world would suspect that the 5 might had moved into major depression when 5 fear sink into lowest
I'm an INTJ type 5. I would estimate my enneagram health to be 4.75 - 7.5
I'm interested in learning more about the intersection between these levels of health and the subtypes. It sounds here like the SP 5 is the lowest level of health and the SO 5 is the middle level, but I doubt that's what you meant--have you ever done a video to discuss that intersection?
My husband is a five and also is my son. Both hate surprises!!
This is intriguing 🤔 cause it feels like I never know enough and everything I do know I’m scarred to share because of some of those exact reasons 9:00 - 9:30
EDIT : Time Stamps
Sounds like there's a Seven that could use a Five to do some further in-depth research on this topic. ;)
Can u make a video about the interaction style of each type , that would be very helpful , u mentioned in one video that eg 7 it's storytelling , thx :)
I dredd getting depleted by interacting so much with other people - very true
HFS…you get me better than I get myself ❤
Wow, thanks for the love! I'm glad I can relate to you!
TY,
5s integrate other people information if it is in alignment.
I don't do DRAMA, surprises, enmeshment, codependency nor group think.
Namaste
🕊️ Peace 🤸 Shalom🐵
I’m a pastor and it is very frustrating being a 5.
What do you find are the challenges? I’m 5w4 and asked to lead a pastoral team. I’d like to know what others have seen as their personal development in ministry.
Helps to not get overwhelmed by the very situation of Gagadom outside in those times of pseudo- dangers..😁🤩🤭😚😇😄.
Yep right I also know this from my own experience as being a 5/6= emergency interactions..😁🤣🤩😊🤪
i'm type 9 but i love watching all your videos so much
thanks for the content
💕
You're so welcome!
That is so 9 of you 🥰👍😃
Not me getting 5 brand gum as one of the ads 💀🤚
Great information! Thank you for sharing!
My pleasure!
Is it normal for 5s to find it very difficult to even take a test to see where they are on the enneagram spectrum?
A waffle 🧇 is not compartmentalized enough. As a 5, I want a bento box 🍱.
OMG so true
I love research when i have the energy i though i was a 4 wing 3 but guess im. A 5wing 4
Do any other 5s get really emotion when overwhelmed?
I am an INFJ -T 5 wing 4. I get very emotional when overwhelmed.
What does it mean to "integrate towards"?
Can we graduate to an 8? Or just have more positive attitudes of an 8?
In some ways you become like an 8, in some healthy aspects...
@@twlahue thank you for your reply and for the clarification... I know that was very 5 of me to ask for it.
Withdrawn doesn’t even begin to describe me. No news: I’m at the lower level. Maybe I’ll get better. Someday.
I've been not sure for a long time either am I a 4w5 or a 5w4 (thinking there's a more higher chance of me being a 4w5 because I was an INFP for the 16 personalities), but after my dad saying that "scattered is a good word to describe you now," I've realized I was a stressed 5w4 with a strong w4 (I've noticed some of the aspects in me but I wasn't sure enough to conclude it), well... at least I think so.
I'm currently stressed out and I'm doing my best to NOT do ANY kind of school related work because my brain has broken or something and I don't know why, and it's just making the situation even worse!! I just wanna have a brain surgery or change my brain for a healthier one or something.
HELP ME BUT PLEASE LEAVE ME ALONE (me for real knows I need help but doesn't really want help).
Did you checked type 9? INFPs are usually 4w5 or 9w1. When I took the test my two highest was 4 and 5, but I am definitely a 9 and as Tom sad some 9 look like 5. (I am INFP too.) Hope you are well now.
@@jazon85k Ya, I do have some aspects of the 9. I've also have some aspects of 6 and 8 (it's my culture that makes them high).
One of the reasons I think I have some aspects of 9 is because my tritype is 594 or 495. Also I think it's because I usually refuse any kinds of problems that will make someone get mad at me or something. I refuse it because I'm just fed up.
My mom's a 8, so I have a series of long stories of getting scrolled from her for no good reason (or even sometimes no reason and she's just in a bad mood).
30:32 The Integrated Wizard
I usually really enjoy this channel! However, this is disappointing and a bit bizarre. It does not sound like you have even a basic understanding of fives, which is strange considering how in depth and insightful a lot of your other videos are on different personality types. Your video on 5s sounds like a clinical review, not a conversation about human beings. It doesn't sound like there are any 5s in your life that you truly know or understand. If I'm mistaken in that, I apologize. But you sound either like you don't like 5s or you're very confused by them. Which, I get because we are a bit perplexing. But maybe don't teach about it until there's connection and understanding? 5's are not robots and as we all know, no one personality type can be understood by listing facts out of a book. But, it really sounds like you're reciting a list of things you read versus actual understanding of a person you know.
05:09
Lol, it's literally me.
Hahahahah I just splurged in Udemy and Skillshare on certifications and classes....
It’s hard for this non-NT not to take it personally, being left by a 5 :/
How can I parse out having qualities of a 5 and having qualities of an INTP? I'm an INTP and feel like I relate to enneagram 5 and 9 equally. I'm wondering if I'm really a 9 but being INTP and very very introverted makes me look like a 5.
I'm also female so not sure if the rule applies ("if you're male and not sure if you're 5 or 9 then you're a 9"). I definitely care about social norms and pleasantries, making small talk with strangers, etc. but I'm also a woman...
Look at the core fear of each type and see which one relates to you most. I think that's the only way to know. Also, look at the numbers to which types 5s and 9s disintegrate when under stress. I thought I was a 9 too and I'm also an INTP. 5s disintegrate to unhealthy 7s, and 9s disintegrate to unhealthy 6s.
I honestly don't care about small talk with strangers and will avoid it at all costs.
And the statements about if you're confused about being a 9 or 5 then you're a 9, doesn't make sense. It could possibly cause people to end up mistyping themselves.
I still look and the struggles that type 9s face because I think they can still be of help.
@@mismiserables I definitely relate to type 7, but when I’m acting that way I don’t feel unhealthy. Trying new things and other 7 stuff is what happens when I’m healthy. When I’m unhealthy I shut down.
It's true that type 5 descriptions seem very Ti heavy and introverted, and type 9 descriptions sound very Fe as well as Si in a very Se-PoLR-specific kind of way, so perhaps there's room for conflation, though on both sides. I've also heard enneagram enthusiasts insist that many type 9 INTPs mistype as 5s. It is always the 9s who say this though (possibly projecting?). I identify decently strong with 9w1 and think that's likely part of my tritype, but consider 5w4 my core type. Even after hearing 9s warn supposed 5s of the pitfalls of mistyping themselves, I attempted to reanalyze myself with mustered newfound skepticism and ultimately came to the same conclusion; I'm almost certainly a 5.
I don't think we can apply any hard & fast rules here, particularly based on gender (though I'm also female & INTP for whatever it's worth), but there are multiple ways to approach differentiating which fits better. Here are a few I found useful:
* Generally speaking, 9s will always move away from intensity, while 5s will move towards it. Nines often want to stay comfortable and keep things on an even keel, while 5s (5w4 esp, I think) enjoys intensity of thought, extremes in sensation, and even emotional intensity (in a 4ish masochistic way or in a "case study" kind of way).
* Think about the wings for each type. For other numbers in your tritype, you can probably identify your predominant wing as well. However, with your core type, you really should find elements of both wings you can relate to, even if you identify with one more than the other. So look for areas in which there are 3 #s in a row you can relate to. I relate to 5, 4, and 6 (in that order) all pretty strongly, and they are not even in the same "center" so it's not just about being a "head" type (which might be the case if you related to 5, 6 & 7). This also happens to me with 9, 1, 2, but I'm pretty sure that's because 9w1 & 2w1 are the other #s in my tritype. I could be wrong, of course, but this is my personal theory.
* Consider the direction of integration & disintegration for both types. 5 moves toward 8 in growth, challenging people and calling out lies or mistakes with confidence, and seeks novelty & excitement like a 7 when stressed, or feels bad about missed opportunities (at least this is how it manifests for me... I do know what you mean about not seeing unhealthy 7 behaviors in yourself. For instance, I rarely feel "scattered" like the stereotype description for 5 disintegration says. Honestly, the [only?] way in which it makes sense to me is moving towards 7 for stress-relief, to _deal_ with stress. I do sometimes want to ignore problems or deal with them by running away, so perhaps that counts? And like I said, I do mourn squandered opportunities _if_ they were rare opportunities, but this is probably the 4-wing influence as well). 9s on the other hand moves towards 6 in stress and towards 3 in growth. I think it's easy to mistake almost any stress for 6-like qualities because 6s are known for being fearful and anxious. I don't know about you, but the arrow towards 3 is one I really just cannot relate to at all. In fact, 3 is the type on the enneagram I relate to the least (consequently, this is part of how I know I'm not a 4w5).
* Compare core fears, as others have mentioned. 9s are afraid of loss, separation, and conflict. 5s are afraid of being incompetent according to many sources (I actually don't relate to this as much), afraid of being helpless, according to Dr. Tom LaHue here (which sounds more relatable to me), but actually, according to other 5s I've spoken to, afraid of being dependent on other people. Perhaps this comes from the 8 arrow, but it really hits close to home for me and makes sense.
If you really want to know what that rule is when applied to females though: "average male Nines tend to think that they are Fives. (As noted in the discussion of Twos, average female Nines tend to think that they are Twos.)" And if you haven't already read the article "Misidentifying 5 and 9" from The Enneagram Institute, that might help. Good luck.
-- female INTP 5w4
@@heatherbryant4197 thank you! That helps but also makes me confused! I relate a lot to type 8 as well and am not sure if that’s because it’s a wing or because it’s a direction of growth.
The thing that makes me feel like I’m not a 5 is that I read that they tend to observe and observe and prepare before jumping in if they ever do. I tend to throw myself into new things and figure it out as I go.
@@eggfishy Interesting. Well, firstly, I'd say, to differentiate a wing from a direction of growth, a wing will likely be something you relate to pretty consistently throughout your life, including in times of stress and unhealthy behavior. You just won't relate to every element of that type. For example, my taste in music and art has always been very 4ish, for as long as I can remember. I don't like songs that seem too happy or upbeat. I am drawn to the dark, the painful parts of life that build character and touch on more meaningful topics. I have also noticed when I'm upset about something, I often force myself to stay upset, the 4 quality of "inhabiting a mood" and some of that masochism. But other 4 traits, like being dramatic or wanting to attract a "rescuer," what I call "damsel in distress syndrome," I don't relate to at all, and have little respect for. 5s value independence too much to want to be rescued or saved like a helpless animal.
With the direction of growth, you should really only be adopting a "healthy" version of those traits. And it might only be something you find yourself relating to only as you get older. For the longest time, I actually used to say that 8 & 3 were the two types I didn't relate to at all. I saw 8s as angry bullies (maybe a bit stereotyped). But I eventually came to identify with a few traits. As I've gotten older I've become more comfortable being assertive and don't feel bad about putting people on the spot or making them feel uncomfortable if they are in the wrong. In fact, there's a small part of me that enjoys making people feel uncomfortable lol. But I think this has only developed with age. When I catch a stranger staring at me in public, I will sometimes stare back at them and force them to avert their gaze and be the first to break eye contact. I realize in retrospect this is a very "alpha"/dominance thing and mostly unlike me, i.e. my self-concept. I probably never would have done this as a child or teenager. I also have the "don't be a pussy" internal dialog that 8s have, but this could perhaps also be due to having no sisters and growing up around boys. There are lots of other 8 traits, like being comfortable with anger, that I really don't relate to.
I'd also think about the wings for 9 and 5. Do you relate to both 4 and 6? What about 1?
There is also a third possibility that you have an 8 in your tritype. Or even that your core type is 8w9, depending on how much you relate to 8.
It is true that 5s prefer to sit back and observe on the sidelines, but I wouldn't say it's necessarily to prepare. I think this is more true for IxxJ type 5s, especially INTJs or maybe IxTJs generally (though ISTJs are more often 6s or 1s). When you have a type 5 with strong Ti, they often have no plans for their knowledge and learn for the sake of knowledge itself, unbothered by whether there is any real practical application. Most of what I observe I simply want to understand and have no plan to utilize that knowledge practically. Honestly, we learn a lot of relatively useless crap just because it is interesting to us. But we will rationalize it with the reasoning that "you never what might happen; maybe some day I'll be able to use this knowledge, and no one else will know it but I'll be able to pull it out of my back pocket and save the day." We really only want control over ourselves, but this seemingly useless knowledge gives us a sense of control over the unknowns of the future to secure our survival and competence.
Those improvisational skills and tendency to jump in without hesitation don't sound particularly INTP-ish, but I think it really depends on whether you're talking about physical improvising or ideational improvising, which we could roughly associate with Se or Ne, respectively (and, therefore, also type 7). If you mean something like writing an impromptu speech on the fly or making up your argument as you go in a debate or taking a test without studying, that's still consistent with the INTP's Ne. But if you're really good at figuring out mechanical things or performing physical tasks you've never done before with no preparation, that seems inconsistent with INTP's Se blindspot. We can work around the weak Se with Si, so if you've practiced before it will eventually become muscle memory. But if it's something completely foreign it can be a little terrifying, especially if it's something you have to do with other people watching. I had a bad habit of rarely reading the textbook for most of my classes bc I could wing it on exams, or just cram the night before. But you better believe I always read the lab manual bc I did not want to be caught having no clue what I was doing when it came to physical tasks in experiments I'd never conducted before or things like preparing a culture or slide for the microscope. Being caught floundering in any academic realm can be pretty mortifying. I guess maybe this is Se blind viewed through the lens of inferior Fe. Anyway, I was just wondering, do you think there's a chance you could be an ISTP or another similar type with stronger Se? Even ENTPs have better Se and also tend to give off that 7ish improvisational "winging it" energy. Actually, if you were an 8, and only went to 5 in stress (perhaps the "shut down" you mentioned?), that could explain relating to both 9 and 7 but seeing neither as negative... Or if you had 8 in your tritype maybe. Just food for thought.
To be fair, I think 5s also shut down under extreme stress, but it can hard for others to notice bc they're so withdrawn and stoic to begin with. Going from quiet & calm to silent & apathetic is a change that is difficult for many people to recognize, unless they are practiced at trying to read your body language. I think the change from 8 to 5 would be more noticeable. I don't know many 8s, but when I think about the ones I do, I think their relationship with 5 energy might be similar to my relationship with 7 energy; bc in the heat of the moment they are not very 5ish when upset... it seems more likely a coping mechanism for stress. They delve into quiet research to escape much the way I seek novelty to escape reality? 🤔 I'm no expert, but this is what is starting to look like to me at the moment.
According to a source I read, Batman is a 3 🤔
Could be, but I see a lot of counter-phobic 6w5 personally.
Waffles are sticky and mess 🙃🤣
Here is a fact about fives .... Here is how they are wrong for acting that way.
Analysis paralysis
Hey doc Tom are you still alive? Like my comment if you are
Still Alive... We went to Savannah, GA. I will be back home on Friday.
Anyone actually a healthy 5 here ?