"From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire"...I think this was Jon Connington. I don't buy that Dany wouldn't have recognized a dragon if that's what she saw, regardless of its scale texture. However, a griffin (Jon's sigil) covered in greyscale...that could be described as a stone beast considering a) a griffin's appearance and b) people are called stonemen once the disease covers their entire body. The smoking towers could allude to Jon getting triggered by the bells and blowing something up when the GC sacks King's Landing...possibly the Sept of Baelor, which has seven towers. This links back to his failure to burn the sept Robert hid in during the rebellion; a failure which still haunts Jon that he's extremely eager to atone for. If he does do this, maybe fAegon blames Cersei to protect Jon, and Dany will somehow prove they're lying to the people.
I also think of it relating to Jon Connington. I think that the shadow fire may not allude to greyscale itself but the it's more virulent and deadly cousin, the Grey Plague. Greyscale is known to be more common in damp and cold climates so a disease like the grey plague may have a good environment to spread in since winter is officially here in the South. The grey plague, like fire, can rage out of control and kill a lot of people at once compared to the slower moving greyscale. In Westeros, it wiped out half of the population of Oldtown and 3/4 of the Citadel according to Pycelle; in Essos, Illyrio says it killed over 2000 people in Pentos, including his 2nd wife. I definitely suspect Jon Connington is the "stone beast" who will cause vast amounts of death by spreading either greyscale or the grey plague to the war-torn southern part of Westeros!
@@deidjpeidj I didn't think the shadow fire represented greyscale; I thought the 'stone' skin of the beast signaled the greyscale. I do like your thought about Jon inadvertently spreading plague. In Fire and Blood the realm was hit w/plague multiple times, so I've always felt we'd see it at some point in the current timeline. Also, if the Lady Ashford theory w/Sansa holds true, then Jon might end up infecting fAegon (prince Valarr Targaryen, one of Lady Ashford's original champions, died of spring sickness so I assume the same fate, though not necessarily the same illness, would befall Sansa's Targ champion). That last bit is admittedly a stretch, but it would be ironic if Jon, who's so driven to protect fAegon since he failed Rhaegar, ends up giving fAegon a disease that would kill him.
The connection between the weirwood net and house of undying is 100% spot on. Both factions are trying to take an individual with magic blood and leech that power for themselves. Dany made it out....Bloodraven didn’t....Bran..... we don’t know yet. But this IS what’s happening to him. The 3 eyed CROW is not BloodRAVEN. Bran has been manipulated the entire book by a false mentor. One of the biggest troupes of the hero’s journey is the mentor. What’s more Martin then turning that troupe on its head?
Love this theory. I don't think they are poisoned weirwoods, the symbology would not fit. There's to much symmetry for the shades being deformed weirwoods. I think weirwoods are ice trees (frozen imagery) with fire leaves, and shades are fire trees (charred imagery) with ice leaves. Total opposites. Like the Wall and the Five forts. The shades probably tried to stop the dragonlords of Valyria (Qarth was not touched by the empire), so the souls of Garin and the Rhoynar and other enslaved peoples may be living in the shade trees. There's also a connection with the Many faced god and the temple of the Faceless men: The Wall has the Black Gate, a weirwood creepy face door, the temple has a half Weirwood half Shade face door, and the House of the Undying door is also a face door, which opens as a mouth, and if I recall correctly, made of shade wood. This makes me wonder Arya has a link role in both magic tree networks, Bran and posibly Dany being on the other extremes.
Iago Casabiell González Thank you and right back at ya. Agree with basically all of that. With this in mind I think about the line from Mel’s POV about about the duality of the world and how everywhere is “the war”. So if Yin equals ice/death/chaos and Yang equals fire/life/order we can identify “champions” for each side. Fire side should be bold and powerful figures.... Dany, Mel, moqorro might be examples of the “pieces” on the board for Yang. Sansa’s mentor is Littlefinger... Chaos Aryas mentor’s are the faceless men...Death Brans mentor is the Crow.... Ice Team Yin is far more subversive in this game of thrones/cyvasse/chess analogy. They are using the Starks for their own ends or at least trying to. The crow manipulated bloodraven... Euron needs to find an heir worthy of “him”(the crow). The crow likely visited LF after the fight with Brandon. And the Crow literally helps Bran open his 3rd eye only to devour it immediately. “He’s” the “big bad” from the humans POV. The crow pulls the strings of the string pullers me thinks.
I love Gray Area and indeepgeek 😍❤. Also the house of the undying is one of my favorite parts of ASOIAF. I like too see everyone's interpretations of the visions in house of the undying.
Great to see you guys together! Also thank you @GrayArea for your hard work during this pandemic I don’t know how you still have time to crank out videos. You and your fellow nurses are the GOATS of 2020
1) That Lovecraftian Geometry! 2) Oooooh, the trees are poisoned. Much like Shiva, who has the same color schemes, a third eye, and is associated with serpents and trees. 3) The red door/daughter of death thing always puzzles me. A red door means “protection.” This is a Biblical. In the Old Testament, the Hebrew children were instructed to rub blood on their doorposts so that the Angel of Death would pass over their home. A home with red on it was protected. 4) Jon is going to be a wolf man? I need to watch that video.
40:35 Completely agree. I think it could play out like this: Euron makes crazy sacrifice and sows Chaos Leyton Hightower is deep into some magic berserkering, has been locked in his tower for more than a decade preparing for this, he has a palantir, I mean a glass candle, he knows. The Citadel will burn like the library of Alexandria by some fanatic mongrels (be it the Fiery Hand or Eurons mutes), and George will pour some of the deepest sorrow he can craft with the most subtle and crushing effectivness. The Starry Sept will be crushed as well. The faith will pour all their shenannigans too, and the Stranger will walk the streets of Oldtown. Krakens stirr in the water, as a shadow dragon, an ashaii beast, will be born-bound to Euron, waking from the oily black stone at the base of a collapsing High Tower. The stone dragon may breath greyplague, shadows like Melisandre's or maybe Darkness itself. The dragon will roam Westeros until Dany burns it down, slaying the lie of Euron being a God.
Fantastic discussion between two of my favorite ASoIaF content creators and about such an intriguing concept within the narrative the House of the Undying , love that Lady Gray came on here. Definitely a dark mysterious magical place and all the concepts that surround the HotU. The book version of Dany's visions are considerably more complex and just massively more content than the show's version and is absolutely one of my favorite concepts to discuss and contemplate although at times certain aspects of it can do my head in. Just love all the variety , nuance and symbolism with past , present and future concepts with the HotU visions in the books ; it will be great to see how the books' narrative unfolds with how much pans out from the HotU visions. Great discussion about the all the concepts with the HotD visions , not much to add although i do think the "daughter of death" of course means many things around Daenerys which you both highlighted but a couple other things with that is also her being orphaned with her father being killed & usurped (rightly so based on what the Mad King had become) and Dany's mother died from complications of Dany's birth (even more directly daughter of death concept) both of which were highly impactful on her life, arc and the formation of who Dany is. And also part of her character being a conquering dragon-lord / lady she will inflict a lot of death along her path , not like the show gave us but having three weapons of such huge destruction ability that will just be part of what transpires. Great discussion and breakdown of all the visions. Also I am totally down with the connections between the Weirwoods / Ww net and the Shade of the Evening trees. The SotE trees seems like an inverse of each other in a sort of yin yang way. Both seem tied to blood magic / blood sacrifice , which both seem to require a paste / elixir tied to them to access their magic and open a third / metaphysical eye tied to them. Undying themselves with the visual heart does seem similar to heart tree concepts and Bloodraven and the CotF greenseers being directly hooked up to the Weirwood roots and being given prolong lives / sustained from them on account of the connection. Also it can be construed both networks (Weirwoods and SotE trees) are seeking a champion for their sides / factions , Bloodraven is one for the Ww and looking for his successor with Bran , the Undying / Warlocks attempted to to seize Dany and her dragons for the SotE side and Euron has connections to both who all signs point at one point was at least considered and looked into by Bloodraven as the TEC /TER successor & is also heavily influenced by using so much of SotE and seems to have taken the warlocks by force. Just so many connections between the Weirwoods and the SotE. Great discussion Robert and Lady Gray on a super intriguing and fascinating concept in the ASoIaF narrative.
Another winner, Ser Robert! The pastes = vision quest theme reminds me of ayuasca ceremonies. And when I read the Dany visions, I took the beautiful woman being ravaged, as Westeros being overrun and savaged by The Others. Perhaps that’s why it was shown to Dany as a possible future that she must help prevent? Also, Robert - Jon is 100% the mount to love!! Even more so, after being in ghost!! 😂 BEST PART!! 😂 Thanks @in deep geek & @this gray area you guys rocked! 🤘🏻 P.S. I LOVE Gray telling us about Amanda’s burnt/blackened weirwoods! Gonna check that out next! 🙏🏻
I can't wait for WoW. These videos have got me so excited to finally see where things will go. I love the theorizing, thank you both for another great video.
The idea of poisoned/ corrupted weirwoods is so cool! Could Westeros have originally been split off from Essos to stop the corruption from spreading there? Maybe using the Children for that, and so destroying them as a vital species? Ulthos is pure black purple on the map now...
Yay!! What a team 👏😍 I'm loving your hair. You look adorable ❤️ I hate that they left all the cool magic out of the show, but we still have the books💙📚
Can I just say I really appreciate how you are showcasing the female voice equally not only from the stories but with other content creators, after some negative experiences it's really heartening :)
I think her mounts are her husbands. To bed-Drogo. Kinda like she was only meant to bed him and was always going to lose him. The vision with her sliver is the night of her wedding. To Dread-a husband that she will have to kill or that causes death either hizdahr or Daario (in her heart she’s married to Daario) the vision of the dead man on the ship could either one of them. Daario dying while a hostage or Hizdahr if he’s the harpy. And to love is Jon snow-vision blue rose in the wall of ice.
Great episode. I think people tend to overthing these visions a bit. Most are pretty straightforward (not at the time of reading necessarily, but in hindsight). I totally agree that all thr "For Love" things involve Jon. The fires: Life (to birth her dragons), Death (to kill the White Walkers), Love (so Jon can forge Lightbringer). The 3 treasons: Blood (Mary Mazdur), Gold (Jorah), Love (Jon who will kill her to create Lightbringer). The mounts: Bed (Kal Drago), Dread (Drogan), Love (Jon, again to lead to Lightbringer)
This was an amazing collaboration between you two. I adore you both and I'm obsessed with the visions in the HOTU. The analysis you both have, whether you agree on the points or disagree, are fantastic! As much as I would LOVE to visit Quarth, I'm fairly certain I would get incredibly confused and stuck there with the creepy blue dudes. Maybe I would be ok if I brought my "Drogon", my rescue pit bull Mingus. Anyways, thank you for such a great video, all the content that you're both (and others) producing and I appreciate your time so very much!!
I think that taking the woman with the rat men vision too literally is a pitfall. You guys talk about how the other visions are quite literal, therefore the woman+dwarf men vision must also be fairly literal. But there is another pattern which you are ignoring with that reading, and that is that the visions seem to get more specific and accurate as they progress into the past. The vision of (presumably) Rhaegar is quite clear because it has happened. The vision of the mad king is quite clear because it has already happened. The red door of her (presumably) childhood home is quite clear because it has already happened. However, then we proceed to the scene which is clearly the red wedding and things begin to get abstract. There is a man with the head of a wolf, this is clearly symbolic. Although its meaning is clear to us, both because we know what it means, but I think also because it is in the near future at the time of the vision. Its clear, but still a little symbolic because she is getting a vision of the future. I think the woman being ravaged by rat-men dwarves or whatever they are is likely an event which is even farther in the future, and thus is even more unclear and symbolic. If anything, this reading suggests that we *Shouldn't* be taking this scene in the vision literally at all. I don't think the idea that supernatural visions get less clear the farther you peer into the future is all that preposterous of an idea to propose either. It seems like a pretty basic, nay, fundamental underlying property of prophecy in fantasy, asoiaf included.
The man with the head of the wolf isn't symbolic. They cut off his direwolf's head and sewed it onto Rob, parading his body around. Arya saw it. Read her chapter again...
Always did strike me as odd, as Pree tells Dany that "many enter (HotU) but few come out again." Yet, as you pointed out, there is a thick layer of dust all over everything. I realise it was probably a lie intended to lull Dany into lowering her guard but it's kind of interesting.
Oh how wonderful this paring of minds, My Lady Gray & Sir Robert! I agree that the Weirwood of white & Red and the Ebony & blue are comparable. The CotF & the Undying are both feeding and being fed with worship and blood. The colors of house Targaryen are Ebony and Red.
@@iagocasabiellgonzalez7807 agreed, but that is PURE speculation based on virtually no evidence. The only possible evidence she was ever there is the betrothal witness and technucally only derry needed to be there for that. So we have 1 piece of weak documentational evidence, and what viserys says to her and we all know he is a stand-up guy lol. Compare that to the fact that we have had multuple instances describing where lemons come from and what bravos is like and its not like this is stuff only from back in a game of thrones 30 years ago this is a piece of knowledge repeated in multiple books and the lemons are always associated with the red door and that woman in the riverlands mentions they only grow in dorne and even in the most recent yet to be released book we have someone prominently call a charactrr an idiot for thinking lemons grew in bravos because it was further north than kings landing and that they only grew in dorne or in lys/volantis etc. The best theory for a lemon tree is maybe the sealord has a greenhouse. Sure he could but it's never been mentioned. They can have trees but the problem isnt that bravos cant grow trees, its that they cant grow lemon trees. The natural trees of the area were simply cut down to build the city which is why only the rich grow them on the valuable land. Basically id want to see proof of a greenhouse or a greenhouse referenced in the red door vision because as it is that is a prominent detail left out from the vision if it were there. Growing a lemon tree in bravos is kind of like expecting to find florida lemon trees growing in Newfoundland. Lastly on a different subject i wanna reference something i know about paint historically and today. Namely, wet, particularly salty wet areas are HORRIBLE for paints and they wear and strip easily. What you see historically and today is that brighter paints are primarily used in dryer more tropical or Mediterranean type areas where they can last for decades or centuries with little decay. If i painted a wooden door red here in BC Canada near the ocean it would be stripped off within a few years from the elements. It makes little sense to paint a door in that colour even if i was wealthy because ots just an annoyance and will never look as good as something made from another material or finish. Another thing is that in areas where it is moist and foggy much of the time like bravos paint is a bitch to cure properly without getting it tacky. There is a reason most of bravos is made out of stone rather than painted wood. George DEFINITELY knows this since he lived by the water growing up. It would absolutely be something on his mind as he recreated a seaside trading port. Thats my evidence anyways. If you think there is stronger evidence against it let me know :)
@@danielbroome5690 Yeah I agree lemons in Braavos is quite difficult to achieve and probably there's little evidence for more than speculation. I live in Galicia, NW Spain, just right by the sea, with a climate very similar to that of Braavos, very, very very veeery wet all year round (just like Ireland) and foggy, never drying, with a small summer break of a few weeks of sun (it's Spain after all). We get lemons only near the sea (not so cold in winter there), and with thick skins because of cold and wet from october to may. There's a load of parallels you can draw between Galicia and the Torrentine Valley in Dorne, different peoples from the rest of Spain, loads of celtic stuff ingrained in our culture, and Santiago de Compostela, a pilgrim site where a "falling star" (Compos Stella is latin for Field of the Star) marked the grave of Saint James. Sounds like an eccho of Starfall. But I digress ^_^ Marine villages here paint the doors with bright colours every year precisely because paint rots so fast. We just can speculate because we haven't got enough information, but i'm inclined to think the Red Door is in Braavos
43:29 A corpse standing at the prow of a ship with bright eyes and grey smiling lips. Could be a myriad of people: --Corpse as in almost dead, but standing: Jon Connington (grey lips and pale eyes) - but not smiling Faegon (he might have greyscale too, bright eyes and smiling) Theon (after Ramsay he's like and old man, but now he's smiling) Cersei, as a corpse bride Lady Stoneheart, sailing with Nymeria and the superpack (tinfoil, but sounds fun) A White Walker (as the Dothraki, they comit heresy and sail the poison water - it is known) --A forsakenized character: Aeron Victarion Hizdar I like the idea of Faegon being the 2nd rythm in the profecies: the fire for death (greyplague, she may burn him alive), a mount to dread (greyplague), treason for gold (not for money, but for the golden company)
imagine if Jon plunges his sword to light light bringer and it doesn't actually work. how tragic would that be. it would sum up what characters have thought about prophecy being a sword without a hilt
The prophesy is possibly less important than the belief in the prophesy... I learned that with Harry Potter, and as a youth I was fascinated by that. It hasn't changed. I like the idea of sealing your own fate because of some words or a vision. Creating your own destiny and yet not at the same time. I just- the psychology of it is absolutely fascinating.
The book says stone beast not stone dragon. So the stone beast could be a griffin. Probably a grey scaled JonCon. The shadow fire could mean blackfyre.
I love the idea that the woman being ravaged is Cersei. I had never thought of that. Also, maybe I missed them mentioning it, but couldn't the man on the prow be Damphair?
If we go off the assumption we are starting in the future and moving back as far as Dany's vision. The future isn't set in stone so it would make sense for the red wedding to be a bit abstract but pretty accurate and the first vision being so far in the future it is incredibly unclear and becomes far more abstract. Less is set in stone.
I think it's possible that the 'fire for love' Dany will light could be to burn Shireen in order to bring Jon back to life. (Just dealing with books - not show). Melisandre certainly believes that king's blood has power, and that could be used to bring him back. It also fits the blood magic pattern - only death can pay for life.
I have to say I agree with Gray that the 3 betrayals are more likely to be committed by Dany rather than against her. In this series there's always a twist to the prophecies and characters commonly misinterpret them so it would be kinda disappointing if it turns out Dany was right about the meaning despite the suspiciously vague wording of this prophecy. And Drogo's death could still fit into the prophecy with Dany being the betrayer: She told Drogo to let Mirri clean his wounds and then trusted her again to bring Drogo back properly despite being warned against this and her actions ultimately led to the death of Drogo, her unborn child and her horse and to the birth of her three dragons. She considers the dragons her children and she has the "blood of the dragon" so calling this a "betrayal for blood" is pretty fitting. But I guess we can't really know anything for sure until the next books are released and the other two betrayals actually happen.
Shireen is the blood of the Dragon via her grandmother AND a child of stone due to her Greyscale And her birth at Dragonstone.*** And perhaps Dani will sink Lightbringer into Jon to light it & he’ll not truly die due to the fact he’s already been reanimated.
If the undying one's are like bloodraven, and Dany burned them all, must that not have a massive impact on the whole continent of essos if it's a mirror of the weirwood network? I would just think that with the weirwood network destroyed, westeros would not be the same, balance wise and all of that... Do we see that impact, or would it take a while to take effect? Thanks Robert and Grey for the great content!
Seems to me the black trees are just a different species of tree that has the same psychic properties of wierwood, but is adapted to a different climate, so it has it's own separate super consciousness and agenda.
I know I'm a bit late to the discussion, but I believe the gold company is a good candidate for the treason for gold. They betrayed their word by giving up their employer to follow young grif, they 'betrayed' the blackfyre by following a targaryen, they're betraying everybody by claiming fAegon is a targaryen, they betrayed Dany by invading westeros instead of joining her. Lots of betrayals for the golden company to go back to westeros.
If the other books come out and I hear about Jon killing Dany to wield Lightbringer, if that's actually the course the story takes, I'm throwing the whole series out
First of all I should say that I have a certain amount of respect for anyone who offers their time and energy to create content on subjects about which they are passionate. That being said this collaboration confuses me a little bit. I have not visited this young woman’s channel yet and I am by no means an expert in ASoFAI, however, these two creators seem really mismatched with regards to their level of articulation and eloquence. Also, I didn’t find the second creator to be that insightful, the young man appeared to be putting in a bit of work to prompt her to respond and expound on some of the topics. Just my opinion with no intentions of offending.
Robert is such a class act. If only everybody could have his manners and kindness. Thank you Robert for all your content!
Thought you were referring to old Bobby B. for a moment.
2 of my favorite ASOIAF minds collaborating!!! An automatic like
Real talk I’m so happy right now I JUST found this!
Why am I not seeing this until now!!!. Is my algorithm not rithming? 2 of my favorite voices/views in the ASOIF mythos 🎉
"From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire"...I think this was Jon Connington. I don't buy that Dany wouldn't have recognized a dragon if that's what she saw, regardless of its scale texture. However, a griffin (Jon's sigil) covered in greyscale...that could be described as a stone beast considering a) a griffin's appearance and b) people are called stonemen once the disease covers their entire body. The smoking towers could allude to Jon getting triggered by the bells and blowing something up when the GC sacks King's Landing...possibly the Sept of Baelor, which has seven towers. This links back to his failure to burn the sept Robert hid in during the rebellion; a failure which still haunts Jon that he's extremely eager to atone for. If he does do this, maybe fAegon blames Cersei to protect Jon, and Dany will somehow prove they're lying to the people.
Like this theory
@@iagocasabiellgonzalez7807 Thanks. It's kind of out there but it's what I got lol.
I also think of it relating to Jon Connington. I think that the shadow fire may not allude to greyscale itself but the it's more virulent and deadly cousin, the Grey Plague. Greyscale is known to be more common in damp and cold climates so a disease like the grey plague may have a good environment to spread in since winter is officially here in the South. The grey plague, like fire, can rage out of control and kill a lot of people at once compared to the slower moving greyscale. In Westeros, it wiped out half of the population of Oldtown and 3/4 of the Citadel according to Pycelle; in Essos, Illyrio says it killed over 2000 people in Pentos, including his 2nd wife. I definitely suspect Jon Connington is the "stone beast" who will cause vast amounts of death by spreading either greyscale or the grey plague to the war-torn southern part of Westeros!
@@deidjpeidj I didn't think the shadow fire represented greyscale; I thought the 'stone' skin of the beast signaled the greyscale. I do like your thought about Jon inadvertently spreading plague. In Fire and Blood the realm was hit w/plague multiple times, so I've always felt we'd see it at some point in the current timeline. Also, if the Lady Ashford theory w/Sansa holds true, then Jon might end up infecting fAegon (prince Valarr Targaryen, one of Lady Ashford's original champions, died of spring sickness so I assume the same fate, though not necessarily the same illness, would befall Sansa's Targ champion). That last bit is admittedly a stretch, but it would be ironic if Jon, who's so driven to protect fAegon since he failed Rhaegar, ends up giving fAegon a disease that would kill him.
I agree. I actually think the great stone beast could be greyscale, the plague spreading uncontrolled from kings landing or something
The connection between the weirwood net and house of undying is 100% spot on. Both factions are trying to take an individual with magic blood and leech that power for themselves.
Dany made it out....Bloodraven didn’t....Bran..... we don’t know yet. But this IS what’s happening to him. The 3 eyed CROW is not BloodRAVEN. Bran has been manipulated the entire book by a false mentor. One of the biggest troupes of the hero’s journey is the mentor. What’s more Martin then turning that troupe on its head?
Love this theory. I don't think they are poisoned weirwoods, the symbology would not fit. There's to much symmetry for the shades being deformed weirwoods. I think weirwoods are ice trees (frozen imagery) with fire leaves, and shades are fire trees (charred imagery) with ice leaves. Total opposites. Like the Wall and the Five forts. The shades probably tried to stop the dragonlords of Valyria (Qarth was not touched by the empire), so the souls of Garin and the Rhoynar and other enslaved peoples may be living in the shade trees.
There's also a connection with the Many faced god and the temple of the Faceless men: The Wall has the Black Gate, a weirwood creepy face door, the temple has a half Weirwood half Shade face door, and the House of the Undying door is also a face door, which opens as a mouth, and if I recall correctly, made of shade wood.
This makes me wonder Arya has a link role in both magic tree networks, Bran and posibly Dany being on the other extremes.
Iago Casabiell González Thank you and right back at ya. Agree with basically all of that.
With this in mind I think about the line from Mel’s POV about about the duality of the world and how everywhere is “the war”.
So if Yin equals ice/death/chaos and Yang equals fire/life/order we can identify “champions” for each side.
Fire side should be bold and powerful figures.... Dany, Mel, moqorro might be examples of the “pieces” on the board for Yang.
Sansa’s mentor is Littlefinger... Chaos
Aryas mentor’s are the faceless men...Death
Brans mentor is the Crow.... Ice
Team Yin is far more subversive in this game of thrones/cyvasse/chess analogy. They are using the Starks for their own ends or at least trying to.
The crow manipulated bloodraven...
Euron needs to find an heir worthy of “him”(the crow).
The crow likely visited LF after the fight with Brandon.
And the Crow literally helps Bran open his 3rd eye only to devour it immediately. “He’s” the “big bad” from the humans POV.
The crow pulls the strings of the string pullers me thinks.
You gave Gray such a nice introduction; you're such a gentleman!
Robert is always the ultimate gentleman!
I love Gray Area and indeepgeek 😍❤. Also the house of the undying is one of my favorite parts of ASOIAF. I like too see everyone's interpretations of the visions in house of the undying.
Congratulations on getting 140k subscribers! Loved watching this collaborative stream with you and The Grey Area!!!!! Fabulous!
Great to see you guys together! Also thank you @GrayArea for your hard work during this pandemic I don’t know how you still have time to crank out videos. You and your fellow nurses are the GOATS of 2020
Two of my most favorite people of all thing ASOIAF! Time zones meant that I can never join when your stuff comes online but I always watch later.
Ahhhhhh! You 2 are my absolute FAVORITE you tubers!!! I'm barely starting this video but I'm SO EXCITED!!
1) That Lovecraftian Geometry!
2) Oooooh, the trees are poisoned. Much like Shiva, who has the same color schemes, a third eye, and is associated with serpents and trees.
3) The red door/daughter of death thing always puzzles me. A red door means “protection.” This is a Biblical. In the Old Testament, the Hebrew children were instructed to rub blood on their doorposts so that the Angel of Death would pass over their home. A home with red on it was protected.
4) Jon is going to be a wolf man? I need to watch that video.
Thanks for Robert and Gray area! Great to get your insight on these nuances and mysteries of asoiaf!!
40:35 Completely agree. I think it could play out like this:
Euron makes crazy sacrifice and sows Chaos
Leyton Hightower is deep into some magic berserkering, has been locked in his tower for more than a decade preparing for this, he has a palantir, I mean a glass candle, he knows.
The Citadel will burn like the library of Alexandria by some fanatic mongrels (be it the Fiery Hand or Eurons mutes), and George will pour some of the deepest sorrow he can craft with the most subtle and crushing effectivness.
The Starry Sept will be crushed as well. The faith will pour all their shenannigans too, and the Stranger will walk the streets of Oldtown.
Krakens stirr in the water, as a shadow dragon, an ashaii beast, will be born-bound to Euron, waking from the oily black stone at the base of a collapsing High Tower.
The stone dragon may breath greyplague, shadows like Melisandre's or maybe Darkness itself.
The dragon will roam Westeros until Dany burns it down, slaying the lie of Euron being a God.
What a crossover!! Love both your channels!!
Fantastic discussion between two of my favorite ASoIaF content creators and about such an intriguing concept within the narrative the House of the Undying , love that Lady Gray came on here. Definitely a dark mysterious magical place and all the concepts that surround the HotU. The book version of Dany's visions are considerably more complex and just massively more content than the show's version and is absolutely one of my favorite concepts to discuss and contemplate although at times certain aspects of it can do my head in. Just love all the variety , nuance and symbolism with past , present and future concepts with the HotU visions in the books ; it will be great to see how the books' narrative unfolds with how much pans out from the HotU visions. Great discussion about the all the concepts with the HotD visions , not much to add although i do think the "daughter of death" of course means many things around Daenerys which you both highlighted but a couple other things with that is also her being orphaned with her father being killed & usurped (rightly so based on what the Mad King had become) and Dany's mother died from complications of Dany's birth (even more directly daughter of death concept) both of which were highly impactful on her life, arc and the formation of who Dany is. And also part of her character being a conquering dragon-lord / lady she will inflict a lot of death along her path , not like the show gave us but having three weapons of such huge destruction ability that will just be part of what transpires. Great discussion and breakdown of all the visions.
Also I am totally down with the connections between the Weirwoods / Ww net and the Shade of the Evening trees. The SotE trees seems like an inverse of each other in a sort of yin yang way. Both seem tied to blood magic / blood sacrifice , which both seem to require a paste / elixir tied to them to access their magic and open a third / metaphysical eye tied to them. Undying themselves with the visual heart does seem similar to heart tree concepts and Bloodraven and the CotF greenseers being directly hooked up to the Weirwood roots and being given prolong lives / sustained from them on account of the connection. Also it can be construed both networks (Weirwoods and SotE trees) are seeking a champion for their sides / factions , Bloodraven is one for the Ww and looking for his successor with Bran , the Undying / Warlocks attempted to to seize Dany and her dragons for the SotE side and Euron has connections to both who all signs point at one point was at least considered and looked into by Bloodraven as the TEC /TER successor & is also heavily influenced by using so much of SotE and seems to have taken the warlocks by force. Just so many connections between the Weirwoods and the SotE.
Great discussion Robert and Lady Gray on a super intriguing and fascinating concept in the ASoIaF narrative.
Excellent analysis and theories from both of you. Thanks so much for posting.
Such an interesting and mysterious place! Love having some things cleared up!
Love both your channels guys! Great to see this community is still going and still collaborating.
“This” Gray Area and In Deep “this” Geek two of “this” guy’s favorite lol looking good as always Gray bringing the sweet juice 🧃😚
Another winner, Ser Robert! The pastes = vision quest theme reminds me of ayuasca ceremonies. And when I read the Dany visions, I took the beautiful woman being ravaged, as Westeros being overrun and savaged by The Others. Perhaps that’s why it was shown to Dany as a possible future that she must help prevent?
Also, Robert - Jon is 100% the mount to love!! Even more so, after being in ghost!! 😂 BEST PART!! 😂 Thanks @in deep geek & @this gray area you guys rocked! 🤘🏻
P.S. I LOVE Gray telling us about Amanda’s burnt/blackened weirwoods! Gonna check that out next! 🙏🏻
THanks, really interesting thoughts
!
I can't wait for WoW. These videos have got me so excited to finally see where things will go. I love the theorizing, thank you both for another great video.
Maybe the dead man on the ship smiling sadly means that Victarion will kill Hisdar
Wonderful brainstorming session, you two! And IDG- used your affiliate link to pick up the complete series. Cheers!
So sorry I missed this video, lov yah both
Ahh the collab I didn’t know I needed!
I really enjoyed this. Thank you. Grey Area is one of my favorite GOT experts. I like that she keeps it simple yet complex.
The idea of poisoned/ corrupted weirwoods is so cool! Could Westeros have originally been split off from Essos to stop the corruption from spreading there? Maybe using the Children for that, and so destroying them as a vital species? Ulthos is pure black purple on the map now...
I love it when two creators work so well together!! Great video and a huge thankyou for making my day !!! 🖤🖤🖤🖤🖤
Gray has chosen the correct coloring to talk about the undying!
2 of my favorites, I just finished this chapter earlier today so this was great timing
I’m loving this video! Two of my absolute favorite.
I would love and ice dragon. I love his short story about the ice dragon. It’d be cool to see a shadow dragon!?!
Love both your channels!
Grey's face matched mine as we both went to the gutter and imagined the "jon snow mount to love" as literal mount jon. 🤣
My 2 favorite ASOIF RUclipsrs together... finally!!!
I look forward to these so much. Thank you!
My two faves!! Can’t wait to watch ❤️
I love all your mystery stories, Robert! Stay well and thanks again for all the great videos.
Yay!! What a team 👏😍 I'm loving your hair. You look adorable ❤️ I hate that they left all the cool magic out of the show, but we still have the books💙📚
Love you both! Awesomeness!
The Undying visions and her feelings about them could partly explain her becoming a mad queen like in season 8.
Can I just say I really appreciate how you are showcasing the female voice equally not only from the stories but with other content creators, after some negative experiences it's really heartening :)
Y'all go together like peas and carrots :) Awesome work as ever. Cheers!
So you're saying Rob is like Forrest Gump? And that Lady Gray is a drug addict? That's not very nice!
I thought more like chips and gravy !!! 😂😂😂
Yes he is 90% right and she is maybe 10...
I think her mounts are her husbands. To bed-Drogo. Kinda like she was only meant to bed him and was always going to lose him. The vision with her sliver is the night of her wedding. To Dread-a husband that she will have to kill or that causes death either hizdahr or Daario (in her heart she’s married to Daario) the vision of the dead man on the ship could either one of them. Daario dying while a hostage or Hizdahr if he’s the harpy. And to love is Jon snow-vision blue rose in the wall of ice.
Excellent topic. Great series.
Glad to see you both well during the pandemic.
Great episode. I think people tend to overthing these visions a bit. Most are pretty straightforward (not at the time of reading necessarily, but in hindsight). I totally agree that all thr "For Love" things involve Jon. The fires: Life (to birth her dragons), Death (to kill the White Walkers), Love (so Jon can forge Lightbringer). The 3 treasons: Blood (Mary Mazdur), Gold (Jorah), Love (Jon who will kill her to create Lightbringer). The mounts: Bed (Kal Drago), Dread (Drogan), Love (Jon, again to lead to Lightbringer)
Thanks so much for doing this. I've wanted a video in this forever!
I love the ideal of the treasons are not ones inacted against her, but by her
It’s kinda frustrating we have all these people who could clearly starting writing Winds today and still finish it before GRR
My two favorite ASOIAF RUclipsrs 🔥
This was an amazing collaboration between you two. I adore you both and I'm obsessed with the visions in the HOTU. The analysis you both have, whether you agree on the points or disagree, are fantastic! As much as I would LOVE to visit Quarth, I'm fairly certain I would get incredibly confused and stuck there with the creepy blue dudes. Maybe I would be ok if I brought my "Drogon", my rescue pit bull Mingus. Anyways, thank you for such a great video, all the content that you're both (and others) producing and I appreciate your time so very much!!
It’s like seeing my two best friends faces for the first time! Hi guys!
I think that taking the woman with the rat men vision too literally is a pitfall. You guys talk about how the other visions are quite literal, therefore the woman+dwarf men vision must also be fairly literal. But there is another pattern which you are ignoring with that reading, and that is that the visions seem to get more specific and accurate as they progress into the past. The vision of (presumably) Rhaegar is quite clear because it has happened. The vision of the mad king is quite clear because it has already happened. The red door of her (presumably) childhood home is quite clear because it has already happened.
However, then we proceed to the scene which is clearly the red wedding and things begin to get abstract. There is a man with the head of a wolf, this is clearly symbolic. Although its meaning is clear to us, both because we know what it means, but I think also because it is in the near future at the time of the vision. Its clear, but still a little symbolic because she is getting a vision of the future.
I think the woman being ravaged by rat-men dwarves or whatever they are is likely an event which is even farther in the future, and thus is even more unclear and symbolic. If anything, this reading suggests that we *Shouldn't* be taking this scene in the vision literally at all.
I don't think the idea that supernatural visions get less clear the farther you peer into the future is all that preposterous of an idea to propose either. It seems like a pretty basic, nay, fundamental underlying property of prophecy in fantasy, asoiaf included.
The man with the head of the wolf isn't symbolic. They cut off his direwolf's head and sewed it onto Rob, parading his body around. Arya saw it. Read her chapter again...
Always did strike me as odd, as Pree tells Dany that "many enter (HotU) but few come out again." Yet, as you pointed out, there is a thick layer of dust all over everything. I realise it was probably a lie intended to lull Dany into lowering her guard but it's kind of interesting.
I just wanted to say that I love these chats
Renly dies before Robb Stark
he's the one before the leeches
You are right, After the Red wedding there would only be Joffrey and Stannis left
Nice! 👍just in time, I’m getting off work
Love the blue shirt it’s my favorite color!!!
So awesome to see two of my favorite GOT channels talking together ❤
You fudged my head like a magnificent squisher.
Oh how wonderful this paring of minds, My Lady Gray & Sir Robert! I agree that the Weirwood of white & Red and the Ebony & blue are comparable. The CotF & the Undying are both feeding and being fed with worship and blood. The colors of house Targaryen are Ebony and Red.
I love your video in deep geek and garyarea i love you so much
I just cant get onboard with the house with the red door being in bravos, they call attention to the lemon tree in the sample chapters
there would be one place in all of braavos that could hold lemontrees: the sealord's palace.
@@iagocasabiellgonzalez7807 agreed, but that is PURE speculation based on virtually no evidence. The only possible evidence she was ever there is the betrothal witness and technucally only derry needed to be there for that.
So we have 1 piece of weak documentational evidence, and what viserys says to her and we all know he is a stand-up guy lol.
Compare that to the fact that we have had multuple instances describing where lemons come from and what bravos is like and its not like this is stuff only from back in a game of thrones 30 years ago this is a piece of knowledge repeated in multiple books and the lemons are always associated with the red door and that woman in the riverlands mentions they only grow in dorne and even in the most recent yet to be released book we have someone prominently call a charactrr an idiot for thinking lemons grew in bravos because it was further north than kings landing and that they only grew in dorne or in lys/volantis etc.
The best theory for a lemon tree is maybe the sealord has a greenhouse. Sure he could but it's never been mentioned. They can have trees but the problem isnt that bravos cant grow trees, its that they cant grow lemon trees. The natural trees of the area were simply cut down to build the city which is why only the rich grow them on the valuable land.
Basically id want to see proof of a greenhouse or a greenhouse referenced in the red door vision because as it is that is a prominent detail left out from the vision if it were there.
Growing a lemon tree in bravos is kind of like expecting to find florida lemon trees growing in Newfoundland.
Lastly on a different subject i wanna reference something i know about paint historically and today. Namely, wet, particularly salty wet areas are HORRIBLE for paints and they wear and strip easily. What you see historically and today is that brighter paints are primarily used in dryer more tropical or Mediterranean type areas where they can last for decades or centuries with little decay. If i painted a wooden door red here in BC Canada near the ocean it would be stripped off within a few years from the elements. It makes little sense to paint a door in that colour even if i was wealthy because ots just an annoyance and will never look as good as something made from another material or finish. Another thing is that in areas where it is moist and foggy much of the time like bravos paint is a bitch to cure properly without getting it tacky. There is a reason most of bravos is made out of stone rather than painted wood. George DEFINITELY knows this since he lived by the water growing up. It would absolutely be something on his mind as he recreated a seaside trading port.
Thats my evidence anyways. If you think there is stronger evidence against it let me know :)
@@danielbroome5690 Yeah I agree lemons in Braavos is quite difficult to achieve and probably there's little evidence for more than speculation.
I live in Galicia, NW Spain, just right by the sea, with a climate very similar to that of Braavos, very, very very veeery wet all year round (just like Ireland) and foggy, never drying, with a small summer break of a few weeks of sun (it's Spain after all). We get lemons only near the sea (not so cold in winter there), and with thick skins because of cold and wet from october to may.
There's a load of parallels you can draw between Galicia and the Torrentine Valley in Dorne, different peoples from the rest of Spain, loads of celtic stuff ingrained in our culture, and Santiago de Compostela, a pilgrim site where a "falling star" (Compos Stella is latin for Field of the Star) marked the grave of Saint James. Sounds like an eccho of Starfall.
But I digress ^_^
Marine villages here paint the doors with bright colours every year precisely because paint rots so fast.
We just can speculate because we haven't got enough information, but i'm inclined to think the Red Door is in Braavos
43:29 A corpse standing at the prow of a ship with bright eyes and grey smiling lips. Could be a myriad of people:
--Corpse as in almost dead, but standing:
Jon Connington (grey lips and pale eyes) - but not smiling
Faegon (he might have greyscale too, bright eyes and smiling)
Theon (after Ramsay he's like and old man, but now he's smiling)
Cersei, as a corpse bride
Lady Stoneheart, sailing with Nymeria and the superpack (tinfoil, but sounds fun)
A White Walker (as the Dothraki, they comit heresy and sail the poison water - it is known)
--A forsakenized character:
Aeron
Victarion
Hizdar
I like the idea of Faegon being the 2nd rythm in the profecies: the fire for death (greyplague, she may burn him alive), a mount to dread (greyplague), treason for gold (not for money, but for the golden company)
imagine if Jon plunges his sword to light light bringer and it doesn't actually work. how tragic would that be. it would sum up what characters have thought about prophecy being a sword without a hilt
The prophesy is possibly less important than the belief in the prophesy... I learned that with Harry Potter, and as a youth I was fascinated by that. It hasn't changed. I like the idea of sealing your own fate because of some words or a vision. Creating your own destiny and yet not at the same time. I just- the psychology of it is absolutely fascinating.
Yay! Two of my favorites!
Gray and Robert! ayeeee yall rock lol
The book says stone beast not stone dragon. So the stone beast could be a griffin. Probably a grey scaled JonCon. The shadow fire could mean blackfyre.
I love the idea that the woman being ravaged is Cersei. I had never thought of that. Also, maybe I missed them mentioning it, but couldn't the man on the prow be Damphair?
If we go off the assumption we are starting in the future and moving back as far as Dany's vision. The future isn't set in stone so it would make sense for the red wedding to be a bit abstract but pretty accurate and the first vision being so far in the future it is incredibly unclear and becomes far more abstract. Less is set in stone.
Gray should have put on blue lipstick for the episode as a reference to the Warlocks
I think it's possible that the 'fire for love' Dany will light could be to burn Shireen in order to bring Jon back to life. (Just dealing with books - not show). Melisandre certainly believes that king's blood has power, and that could be used to bring him back. It also fits the blood magic pattern - only death can pay for life.
Perhaps the small rat-faced homunculi are the various Frey branches competing over the Riverlands?
I have to say I agree with Gray that the 3 betrayals are more likely to be committed by Dany rather than against her. In this series there's always a twist to the prophecies and characters commonly misinterpret them so it would be kinda disappointing if it turns out Dany was right about the meaning despite the suspiciously vague wording of this prophecy. And Drogo's death could still fit into the prophecy with Dany being the betrayer: She told Drogo to let Mirri clean his wounds and then trusted her again to bring Drogo back properly despite being warned against this and her actions ultimately led to the death of Drogo, her unborn child and her horse and to the birth of her three dragons. She considers the dragons her children and she has the "blood of the dragon" so calling this a "betrayal for blood" is pretty fitting. But I guess we can't really know anything for sure until the next books are released and the other two betrayals actually happen.
Love Grays accent.
I think it’s time you had Preston Jacobs and you two could hash out Lemongate once and for all
Hmm no one has ever suggested that before.
i gave it a like before i pressed play
Great when you two get together
I'm in love with Gray
To King Robert! Long may he reign!!
I hope he does not have Dany go paranoid over the prophecy. He already has one woman driven mad following and trying to counter prophecy in Cersei.
This was an amazing video but I cannot be the only person thinking that the mount for love would actually be Jon. 😏
Shireen is the blood of the Dragon via her grandmother AND a child of stone due to her Greyscale And her birth at Dragonstone.*** And perhaps Dani will sink Lightbringer into Jon to light it & he’ll not truly die due to the fact he’s already been reanimated.
Looking good Gray. Should do face videos more often.
do you think if Dany gets a glass candle she will be able to see if Faegon is real or not?
If the undying one's are like bloodraven, and Dany burned them all, must that not have a massive impact on the whole continent of essos if it's a mirror of the weirwood network?
I would just think that with the weirwood network destroyed, westeros would not be the same, balance wise and all of that...
Do we see that impact, or would it take a while to take effect?
Thanks Robert and Grey for the great content!
Welcome to secrets of Westeros where we talk about essos
YOOOOOOOO smoking tower? Dragon spitting shadow flame? Jon Snow anyone??? After Ned takes down the tower of joy !?!?
Seems to me the black trees are just a different species of tree that has the same psychic properties of wierwood, but is adapted to a different climate, so it has it's own separate super consciousness and agenda.
I know I'm a bit late to the discussion, but I believe the gold company is a good candidate for the treason for gold.
They betrayed their word by giving up their employer to follow young grif, they 'betrayed' the blackfyre by following a targaryen, they're betraying everybody by claiming fAegon is a targaryen, they betrayed Dany by invading westeros instead of joining her.
Lots of betrayals for the golden company to go back to westeros.
I love both of you
Wait... where is the painting that's usually behind you? Lol
No you’re Magical! 😂
If the other books come out and I hear about Jon killing Dany to wield Lightbringer, if that's actually the course the story takes, I'm throwing the whole series out
The weirwood must be the ultimate source of their undying nature surely
I think it rheagar and lyanna stark with his 2and son aegon. Song of ice and fire. Ella had nothing to do with ice
Has she read this chapter?
First of all I should say that I have a certain amount of respect for anyone who offers their time and energy to create content on subjects about which they are passionate. That being said this collaboration confuses me a little bit. I have not visited this young woman’s channel yet and I am by no means an expert in ASoFAI, however, these two creators seem really mismatched with regards to their level of articulation and eloquence. Also, I didn’t find the second creator to be that insightful, the young man appeared to be putting in a bit of work to prompt her to respond and expound on some of the topics. Just my opinion with no intentions of offending.
Agree with gray, Danys AA