Science proves that a reed that sounds during bellows compression and a reed that sounds during bellows draw/expansion operate in two different air pressure domains/regions. That means you have also tune them in their specific domain/region. A reed that sounds during bellows draw, operates in the >atmospheric pressure and below< region. And reed that sounds during bellows compression, operates in the >atmospheric pressure and above< region. They have to be tuned in these regions also.
Hi Steffan, VERY INTERESTING your point. There is indeed a difference in both tuning and timbre of the sound when pushing or pulling the bellows. Was not aware about the air pressure you point out. Thanks for your input.
Thanks for the video. I'm not certain though that you're correct about reed block materials having little effect on the sound. Are you familiar with the Settimio Soprani Ampliphonic? Instead of 3 or 4 longitudinal reed blocks in the keyboard end and 4 or 5 in the bass, the Ampliphonic uses small transverse blocks, 6 in the bass and maybe 10 in the keyboard end. One of these blocks in the keyboard end thus holds the reeds for 4 notes. These accordions have a very different sound, with a much reduced harmonic component, and quite honestly there does seem to be something missing in their sound, and they lack volume too. It was an experiment which didn't gain popularity. I theorise from this that on a conventional block, many reeds other than those being played will be slightly vibrating in sympathy, which colours the sound even if there is no air passing through them. And if this theory is correct, the reed block material will be relevant as to how much or how little of this sympathetic vibration occurs. As a possible example of this, Weltmeister have sometimes used plastic reed blocks. Weltmeisters in my experience always have a dull sound, but I think the ones with plastic blocks are worse. I hope you find my theorising of interest!
Hi @captaccordion. Thanks for your comment. But I need to disagree with your theory that reeds vibrates sympathetically with others. There is absolutely no sound produced by the mechanical movement of any reeds. The sound is produced ONLY when air passes thru the reed and the sound is produced inside the cavity of the reed block. Look at my video when I press a vibrating tuning fork to the reed block, nothing happens, no sound. Reed block WILL HAVE AN EFFECT ON THE SOUND only when using a more rigid material like aluminum and the reeds are screwed on this reed block. Much more harmonics and a richer sound because the vibrating energy is NOT lost to the "soft" wood. The "coupling" between the reed plate and the aluminum reed block is tighter with the screws than the wax. Even the plastic reed blocks once used by Weltmeister is better for producing higher harmonics. They probably failed at this because of poor workmanship from Weltmeister. Not familiar with the Settimio Soprani Ampliphonic, sorry.
Hello Mr Accordionguide. Thanks for the reply. I'm afraid that I'll have to disagree with your comment that reeds make no noise unless air is passing through them. If you play a bass note or bass end chord, then release the button and stop the bellows, the residual vibration of the reeds remains audible, though not loud. I've had many customers ask me if this was a fault with their accordion, and have had to explain that reeds simply don't lose their momentum in zero time. On vibration in reed blocks, long blocks secured at each end can in fact slightly vibrate in a manner similar to a guitar string in response to the side to side oscillation of reeds. This is mostly evident when M and M+ reeds are on the same block. Somewhere along the block the two reeds will try to synchronise and not want to play the beat that they have been tuned to make. (This effect is visible in the classic physics demonstration of metronomes placed on a swinging board synchronising themselves.) In accordions and in practice, this problem manifests itself about 1/3 of the way along a block, and prevention of this is the reason for bars being screwed across the tops of the blocks, most usually 1/3 of the way along. Anyway, give this all some thought and we'll talk again. Cheers.
@@captaccordion The "noise" and "residual sound" you are talking about the reeds produce by themselves is so a small portion of the total sound that we can ignore it completely. Actually we can say that "the residual vibration of the reeds remains audible after releasing the bass button" you are talking about is more a transient sound, NOT a musical sound. This is why I stand by my stance: "reeds don't make any sound on themselves" Are you familiar with the sound source of the accordion? It is NOT the reed! It is a formant created by the air passing thru the reed. Further more, the bar joining the reed blocks are NOT present to "eliminate the synchronizing between reeds" they exist to prevent the top of the reed blocks swing and thus loose mechanical energy. But as a side effect, the bar does prevent to some extent the "synchronizing between reeds" because the reed blocks are more stable. You even give yourself an explanation: "(This effect is visible in the classic physics demonstration of metronomes placed on a swinging board synchronizing themselves.)" You say "SWINGING BOARD" and that is the main reason the metronomes synchronize themselves. Same effect on a bridge BTW. But we are completely getting out of our main subject here: reed block materials having little effect on the sound. Then please explain to me why I get the same sound out of a reed blowing it with my nose as when this reed is mounted on the reed block?
Everything makes a difference even using pins instead of wax. Can you explain wax vs pins effect on sound. I liked the wax timbre sound way better than pins compared on 2 Italian accordions. Why are all black keys on one side on the reed blocks ??
If you prefer the waxed reeds over the nailed reeds, you probably prefer a mellow accordion sound as opposed to a brighter sound. When fixed with nails, the reed plates are more stable and there is less loss of harmonics hence a brighter tone. Wax is not as rigid as the nails so there will be a movement of the plate and the energy of the reed will suffer as seen at 3:50 Now, answer to the question "why do we voluntarily place the black notes valves at the bottom, closer to the spindle of the keys?" Because the black keys being closer to the axle rod (spindle) have deeper key dip, which results in greater valve clearance. We help the whit keys which have reduced key dip by placing their valve farther away from the spindle.
@ thanks for your reply very informative and i do notice a brighter sound from the pins installed reeds it seems brighter and more like metal sound to me I do prefer the mellow accordion sound thanks
I doubt you can 3D print a metal reed but it would certainly be possible for the reed blocks. I think a 3D print of reed block would sound better than a wooden reed block.
Man, you know very little about accordion building. EVERYTHING affects the sound. The reed tongue, the reed plates, the wood, the house material, the cassotto material, the reedblock angle, etc.
Hey, you're entitle of your own opinion but I STAND BY MY AFFIRMATION. NOT EVERYTHING AFFECTS THE SOUND. You obviously don't know about the "formant" type of producing sound. For example, the piano sound production is COMPLETELY OPPOSITE of the accordion's "formant" type of sound producing. So yes, for the piano, wood is VERY IMPORTANT like for the soundboard which acts as the speaker's membrane to amplify the string's vibrations. But on the accordion, the reed block amplifies nothing. For sure, if the reed block was made of aluminum, it would sound better because the aluminum it more rigid and solid than the wood. Producing reed blocks with wood material is in fact counterproductive as wood is soft so wood won't hold the reed plates as solidly as aluminum would for example. So don't say "I know very little about accordion building" because of your own ignorance and lack of understanding the accordion' sound producing principles .
Very informative. Excellent video. Thanks
Hey thanks. Happy to help.
Science proves that a reed that sounds during bellows compression
and
a reed that sounds during bellows draw/expansion
operate in two different air pressure domains/regions.
That means you have also tune them in their specific domain/region.
A reed that sounds during bellows draw,
operates in the
>atmospheric pressure and below< region.
And reed that sounds during bellows compression,
operates in the
>atmospheric pressure and above< region.
They have to be tuned in these regions also.
Hi Steffan, VERY INTERESTING your point. There is indeed a difference in both tuning and timbre of the sound when pushing or pulling the bellows. Was not aware about the air pressure you point out. Thanks for your input.
Thanks for the video. I'm not certain though that you're correct about reed block materials having little effect on the sound. Are you familiar with the Settimio Soprani Ampliphonic? Instead of 3 or 4 longitudinal reed blocks in the keyboard end and 4 or 5 in the bass, the Ampliphonic uses small transverse blocks, 6 in the bass and maybe 10 in the keyboard end. One of these blocks in the keyboard end thus holds the reeds for 4 notes. These accordions have a very different sound, with a much reduced harmonic component, and quite honestly there does seem to be something missing in their sound, and they lack volume too. It was an experiment which didn't gain popularity. I theorise from this that on a conventional block, many reeds other than those being played will be slightly vibrating in sympathy, which colours the sound even if there is no air passing through them. And if this theory is correct, the reed block material will be relevant as to how much or how little of this sympathetic vibration occurs. As a possible example of this, Weltmeister have sometimes used plastic reed blocks. Weltmeisters in my experience always have a dull sound, but I think the ones with plastic blocks are worse. I hope you find my theorising of interest!
Hi @captaccordion. Thanks for your comment. But I need to disagree with your theory that reeds vibrates sympathetically with others. There is absolutely no sound produced by the mechanical movement of any reeds. The sound is produced ONLY when air passes thru the reed and the sound is produced inside the cavity of the reed block. Look at my video when I press a vibrating tuning fork to the reed block, nothing happens, no sound. Reed block WILL HAVE AN EFFECT ON THE SOUND only when using a more rigid material like aluminum and the reeds are screwed on this reed block. Much more harmonics and a richer sound because the vibrating energy is NOT lost to the "soft" wood. The "coupling" between the reed plate and the aluminum reed block is tighter with the screws than the wax. Even the plastic reed blocks once used by Weltmeister is better for producing higher harmonics. They probably failed at this because of poor workmanship from Weltmeister. Not familiar with the Settimio Soprani Ampliphonic, sorry.
Hello Mr Accordionguide. Thanks for the reply. I'm afraid that I'll have to disagree with your comment that reeds make no noise unless air is passing through them. If you play a bass note or bass end chord, then release the button and stop the bellows, the residual vibration of the reeds remains audible, though not loud. I've had many customers ask me if this was a fault with their accordion, and have had to explain that reeds simply don't lose their momentum in zero time. On vibration in reed blocks, long blocks secured at each end can in fact slightly vibrate in a manner similar to a guitar string in response to the side to side oscillation of reeds. This is mostly evident when M and M+ reeds are on the same block. Somewhere along the block the two reeds will try to synchronise and not want to play the beat that they have been tuned to make. (This effect is visible in the classic physics demonstration of metronomes placed on a swinging board synchronising themselves.) In accordions and in practice, this problem manifests itself about 1/3 of the way along a block, and prevention of this is the reason for bars being screwed across the tops of the blocks, most usually 1/3 of the way along. Anyway, give this all some thought and we'll talk again. Cheers.
@@captaccordion The "noise" and "residual sound" you are talking about the reeds produce by themselves is so a small portion of the total sound that we can ignore it completely. Actually we can say that "the residual vibration of the reeds remains audible after releasing the bass button" you are talking about is more a transient sound, NOT a musical sound. This is why I stand by my stance: "reeds don't make any sound on themselves" Are you familiar with the sound source of the accordion? It is NOT the reed! It is a formant created by the air passing thru the reed. Further more, the bar joining the reed blocks are NOT present to "eliminate the synchronizing between reeds" they exist to prevent the top of the reed blocks swing and thus loose mechanical energy. But as a side effect, the bar does prevent to some extent the "synchronizing between reeds" because the reed blocks are more stable. You even give yourself an explanation: "(This effect is visible in the classic physics demonstration of metronomes placed on a swinging board synchronizing themselves.)" You say "SWINGING BOARD" and that is the main reason the metronomes synchronize themselves. Same effect on a bridge BTW. But we are completely getting out of our main subject here: reed block materials having little effect on the sound.
Then please explain to me why I get the same sound out of a reed blowing it with my nose as when this reed is mounted on the reed block?
Really interesting thanks
Hey thanks, really appreciate your comment.
Everything makes a difference even using pins instead of wax. Can you explain wax vs pins effect on sound. I liked the wax timbre sound way better than pins compared on 2 Italian accordions. Why are all black keys on one side on the reed blocks ??
If you prefer the waxed reeds over the nailed reeds, you probably prefer a mellow accordion sound as opposed to a brighter sound. When fixed with nails, the reed plates are more stable and there is less loss of harmonics hence a brighter tone.
Wax is not as rigid as the nails so there will be a movement of the plate and the energy of the reed will suffer as seen at 3:50
Now, answer to the question "why do we voluntarily place the black notes valves at the bottom, closer to the spindle of the keys?"
Because the black keys being closer to the axle rod (spindle) have deeper key dip, which results in greater valve clearance. We help the whit keys which have reduced key dip by placing their valve farther away from the spindle.
@ thanks for your reply very informative and i do notice a brighter sound from the pins installed reeds it seems brighter and more like metal sound to me I do prefer the mellow accordion sound thanks
3d PRINT THOSE REEDS
I doubt you can 3D print a metal reed but it would certainly be possible for the reed blocks. I think a 3D print of reed block would sound better than a wooden reed block.
Man, you know very little about accordion building. EVERYTHING affects the sound. The reed tongue, the reed plates, the wood, the house material, the cassotto material, the reedblock angle, etc.
Hey, you're entitle of your own opinion but I STAND BY MY AFFIRMATION. NOT EVERYTHING AFFECTS THE SOUND. You obviously don't know about the "formant" type of producing sound. For example, the piano sound production is COMPLETELY OPPOSITE of the accordion's "formant" type of sound producing. So yes, for the piano, wood is VERY IMPORTANT like for the soundboard which acts as the speaker's membrane to amplify the string's vibrations. But on the accordion, the reed block amplifies nothing. For sure, if the reed block was made of aluminum, it would sound better because the aluminum it more rigid and solid than the wood. Producing reed blocks with wood material is in fact counterproductive as wood is soft so wood won't hold the reed plates as solidly as aluminum would for example. So don't say "I know very little about accordion building" because of your own ignorance and lack of understanding the accordion' sound producing principles .