I was also all in for 30 years, having married a Mormon and converted. I had many questions which were never answered, my temple experience didn't bring me beauty or peace - quite the opposite - and I ended up ordering a pile of books from Amazon. Bushman, Mason, Quinn, Palmer, Vogel, Brodie. I found the polygamy thing, read D&C 132 properly, found the Adam Clarke commentary, The Late War, read everything historical, first vision accounts, women's journals. Turns out nobody in the church read any of that, believing everything was anti-mormon literature! Prop 8 came and I was getting fed up with the anti-gay, anti-dark-skin comments in my community and from the pulpit and at the age of 70 and widowed, I resigned. It wasn't easy but here I am, free at last! Love to all the new (and old!) free-thinkers who had the guts to get out. May you feel light and happy. Have a great Christmas everyone! ❤🎉🎄 Thank you dear bishop!
Now 83 years old, I resigned my membership in the Mormon church eight years ago. You have mentioned in another podcast that you suffered mental problems as a result of your Mormon experience. Sixty-two years ago, while on my mission in Mexico, I suffered a breakdown. As a direct result of the trauma, I have suffered from PTSD for the same amount of time. During my life I have lived in three countries, visited 15 countries, and set foot on four continents. I have learned a great deal about Roman civilization from living in Europe, I have visited almost every major pre-Colombian archaeological site in Mexico. And I have been to some mound sites in the Midwest. I have studied the history of Mexico on site, including pre-Colombian sites. Also, I have become a scholar about Book of Mormon history as well as that of the Old and New testaments. I mention my Mormon-related mental health journey on Mormonism Live, episode 54, and I compare what I know about Roman civilization in Europe with my understanding of the so-called "Lehite" civilization in the Americas. Supposedly, both civilizations were contemporaneous. You can find the comparison on The Backyard Professor, episode 125. I suggest them to you simply for your information, hoping to share some of my insight from my life experience.
Kudos for being 75 when you resigned - That's my mom's age and I've all but resigned myself to the idea that she will never not be active - but your story keeps a small glimmer of hope alive.
That's an analogy I have used in discussing the Book of Mormon's authenticity problems many times over the years. The Romans invaded Britain in 43 AD. They built roads, aqueducts, baths, and many other edifices which still stand today. Ancient Roman coins are still being unearthed in Britain today. There are many thousands of descendants of those Romans living in Britain today. By contrast, there is ZERO evidence of the "Book of Mormon people" anywhere in the Americas. And there is no DNA evidence which shows that Hebrew/Semites entered native American populations before Columbus.
When my wife and I and our four kids stopped going to church, it was a relief for all of us. Our kids were 5 to 16 years old at the time. We just told them one night "We're not going to church anymore." They all kinda gave a collective sigh of relief. None of them liked going anyway.
As a convert to the church who never believed its literal truth claims, leaving after many decades of activity was beyond stressful. Hearing your story today, I can only imagine the pain that you and your family are experiencing. They say it takes a year out for every decade in the church to recover. Wishing you comfort and peace during this transition.
Isn't it irronic, that God gave us brains to think, and ask questions and yet many religions that claim to represent God here on earth are the very ones, trying the hardest, to shut down your thinking? They will shame you, gaslight you, and cast you out of their club for questioning and challenging their authority and that is okay. That was all they really were to begin with, was a club. God seeks the heart, however in the end most churches are after your bank account.
My shelf broke when I served as a stake YW president in South America. My budget for the year was $1000 a year for six wards. The mission president home live in a $12,000 a month mission home and his kids were going to the American school (20,000 per kid per year times four) When I asked to increase my budget for a party I was asked to spend my own money.
@@howieroarke My son suffers from PTSD, to point of physical illness" also from his mission experience. It has angered me and frustrated me to no end but I tried to convince myself that it was acceptable but I hadn't put it together about the ptsd until I read you comment. I am no sure enough about Joseph and the Book of Mormon being false yet and I don't believe that Joseph practiced polygamy. Michelle Stone of the 132 problems podcast, Jeremy Hoop of the Still Mormon podcast and a few other have shown documentation of his innocence. Add to that there is no posterity other than with Emma. So whether he was a fraud or not I don't believe he was guilty of that sin.
I don’t believe for a moment that “the Church” is true, but I believe the gospel is true. I believe the Book of Mormon is true. I believe that Joseph was a true prophet of Christ. I believe he was murdered, not by angry ex-Mormons (although there probably were some in the crowd), but I believe it was a group of high-ranking church leaders who plotted it. Leaders who wanted to practice polygamy and set themselves up as kings over the people. And Joseph was in the way. And Hyrum was the obvious person to lead after Joseph. So they killed them both, led the people west, ruled over them like kings, became extremely wealthy, and of course took as many wives for themselves as they could.
@@bgmullins Yeah, that is pretty much where I am at. If you haven't seen the movie Who Killed Joseph Smith by Justin Griffin then I suggest you and others watch it here on youtube or on his website.
@@icecreamladydriver1606 My children, through their Mormon father's line, are related to Fanny Alger, and her uncle Levi Hancock. He and Smith were good friends. In Levi's life story he tells how Smith made a deal with him. Smith would get Clarissa Reed for him if Levi would get Fanny Alger for Smith. Levi then went in the middle of the night to where she was staying, and helped her climb out of her window, and down into a produce wagon. He then transported her for forty-five miles to where Smith was living. His cousin Oliver Cowdery even called him out on his predatory actions, calling it a dirty, nasty, filthy affair. Also, in the life story Levi quotes Smith as to the reason that they started polygamy. Smith and his inner circle were from European royal bloodlines, and wanted to spread their genes as far as possible to perpetuate those lines. They wanted to prevent what they called the "careles" from propagating their inferior genetics into the general population.
Naw man. You're reasons are incredibly sound. I'd not yet heard of "The Late War" correlation but wow, its like the cherries, nuts and sprinkles on top of the other things that destroyed my faith. Thankfully, I'm fully resigned and out of the church and thriving. I'm grateful to see you here on RUclips sharing, despite the deep loss and pain that you and your family went through to get to this point.
I'm new subscriber number 735. I first saw you on Mormon Stories Podcast. This is a great video! I'm on a quest for truth and this was very helpful. Thanks and God bless.
I love you man you’re not alone and thanks for sharing this wonderful story. It’s been 2 1/2 years for me. Parts of it get easier but parts of it are still really really painful. Thank you so much for sharing your story and all the reasons this was so well said.
Good for you Nathan! You've done thorough research, study, analyzed the perplexing events or situations, and concluded with your findings. It's imperative to conduct thorough research and evaluation, compare the pros/cons or the benefits/drawbacks of something or someone before making wise logical decisions!
Well done! I was born into the church & left this year after 54 years! My story is similar to yours but mine started with a study of the bible. I had never read the bible before, because of course its "not translated correctly". I don't know why I decided to study it but I'm glad I did because as I was reading the bible there were too many contradictions between what I was taught which sent me searching for answers. I then discovered the CES letter. Then the gospel topics essays which I never knew existed. Just like you, I had never heard of polyandry. The more I discovered the angrier I got. I felt like a fool for being deceived for so long. Long story short, the Mormon church is not true but the bible is. I thank God for bringing me out of the Mormon church! And just my opinion, it seems to me over the last 10 years the church is trying to identify itself with more traditional Christianity probably because it's hemorrhaging members.Yesterday's doctrines are today's "He was speaking as a man."😂
Great summary! I wish the church would get real and recognize these problems in a healthy way that doesn’t leave some of its members feeling isolated, disillusioned, and crazy. Your video helped me feel less of the sad emotions above. Thank you for that!
A saying goes: "A system gotten up in lies must be maintained by lies." Because the church's origin story is bogus, the leaders and scholars can't help but keep lying about it.
,Thank you for talking about some of the many experiences that can and do lead to leaving "the" church. Truth concerning all religions and teachings is being exposed. Everyone will have a painful adjustment ahead.
I’m not Mormon but have been studying it a lot. I also live in East Tennessee also. Your video is very interesting, I think one of the best I’ve watched.
@@randyjordan5521 I’m in the tri city area. I’m a Baptist. I had Mormon friends in school, I’ve always thought Mormons were very nice, hard working, family oriented people. I’ve not read the whole Book of Mormon, but I’ve read the first book, Nephi, I think. The problem I have with it, is that Nephi is supposedly written in 600 or so BC, and it gives such a detailed account of Jesus’s baptism and crucifixion. That seems so out of place for 600bc. I know the Old Testament prophets gave prophesies of Christ, but they were more vailed in poetic language. The old testament never mentions baptism, and I don’t think crucifixion was even a thing in 600 bc.
I chose the 3rd path!! I stay active and BURN in the middle!! I do not wear garments or pay tithing. I love the people/saints and going to church/community. I help my family members and serve. I hold up two middle fingers to the leaders especially Elder OAKS!
You must have a stronger stomach than mine. I left that church because I could no longer sit in Sunday School and priesthood classes and listen to things being taught that I knew were false.
I see comments about the Mormon Church being false, but some other form of Christianity being true. Those folks should try using the same critical tools in evaluating the Bible as they used to debunk the Book of Mormon. Nathan did a great job of showing the BofM was a 19th century production, drawn from Joseph Smith's cultural and literary milieu. The Bible is no different in that respect. The Bible is a collection of myths that were alive at the time when the several "books" were written down, including the creation myth, the flood myth, and the human sacrifice myth. If you want to learn truth about the big questions, move on to science, not to another delusion. And maybe throw in some philosophy. Use the tools of logic, evidence, and reason, not necessarily what feels good or what you want to believe. It may come as a surprise, but science and ethics offer a very sound morality to live by, how to treat other people and how to live in a society. There are some good ethical teachings in the Bible, as well as some that are not so good, even atrocious.
You need to listen to Wes Huff. He is Protestant Christian who has spent his life studying the bible and the actual historical events. There really was a man who was crucified and then people saw him alive later on. As for the Flood myth, that has ben debunked. There is a great deal of information on the reality of the flood.
@@billyates3226... The same God that set up the physical world with all the physical realities that can be proven by physical means and tests, also set up the unseen SPIRITUAL world where we'll live a lot longer than our relatively short stint in this PHYSICAL portion!!! (forevermore)... Can't begin to see how atheists like YOU, attribute ALL the blessings that we have today, to results of EVOLUTION... The BIBLE'S main purpose is NOT to inform of physical realities that came with the creation of the world (science books do a great job of explaining matters of the physical world)... The BIBLE'S purpose is to prepare us for SPIRITUAL life in the unseen forevermore of the hereafter... In 1Corinthians13:11 it says... "When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things." Continuing to take the Word LITERALLY means continuing to see things from a childish perspective... Though you may think of yourself as wiser than wise, in TRUTH you've chosen voluntarily to repeat the same grade-school mentality/thinking-style over and over... (see Groundhog Day movie)... Getting past that, requires finally accepting that the Bible's message, as well as much of Jesus's counsel, is given in parabolic form (NOT to be taken literally)... Wishing you well...
Nathan, Mike here. First, I’m enjoying your content and want to congratulate you on leaving (or escaping) Mormonism. I do recognize that faith deconstruction from Mormonism is not a party for you and your family. But I see it as a necessary step if an individual is to find faith in Jesus coming out of a manufactured religion like Mormonism. I think all of your reasons for leaving are valid and I hope you continue to share those details. From an outsider NeverMo Christian perspective, I think the main reason one should leave Mormonism is that Mormonism teaches a false gospel and a perverted nature of God and salvation is in the line. You’ve mentioned you felt God’s presence in nature, so let’s start there. If He exists, do you still want to know Him? If He exists, do you want to have eternal fellowship with Him? Can we as sinful beings have fellowship with a Holy Almighty God without forgiveness of sin? Did Jesus live and die and raise from the dead to pay for that sin? (Does archeological evidence exist to prove Jesus existed?, contrasted to the lack of evidence for the BoM). If Jesus is real, will you consider belief in Him and consider the triune nature of God? I’d simply suggest that the Mormon Jesus wasn’t real…but Jesus is real and He wants you and your family to know Him today. I’d suggest some counseling with a Pastor from a nearby Bible-believing non-denominational church if available. That being said, I think you’ve been a guest on Jesus for Mormons podcast and Mormonism Live. Would you consider reaching out to some other podcasts? From top of mind I’d suggest: 1. Faith Deconstructed 2. GLM (God Loves Mormons) 3. Mormon Book Reviews 4. think there are many more I could drum up, ask if wanted.
I have been looking into stylometric analysis in early Christian text studies (spoiler, there are as many problems in literalist / orthodox / faithful modern truth claims there as in Mormon texts). I think studies of the unique Mormon texts is also fascinating. I watched Chris Johnson's presentation on RUclips from 11 years ago but cannot find any published papers or work. So the website you showed here comparing the Late War looks really interesting. Could you post the direct link in the notes or here in the comments, Nathan? The purchased SEO power of the CoJCoLDS Communications department makes searching for non-apologetic materials really difficult, lots of junk to wade past. Thanks!
I was astounded when I compared The Late War text to the BOM. Factor in that from the earliest Vision version to the BOM publishing date, that is 10 YEARS. Joseph with help of others absolutely could have written the Book of Mormon. It is fiction.
A Century ago, the LDS scholar BH Roberts concluded that Joseph Smith had the talent and pre-existing source material by which he could write the BOM on his own. Also, there's no evidence to support Joseph's claim of an 1820 "first vision." The historical evidence suggests that he came up with the idea of writing his "golden Bible" after his fraud conviction of March 20, 1826.
At the 26 minute mark, Nathan talks about the various versions of Joseph Smith's alleged first vision. Even more suspect than the inconsistencies in the story, there is no evidence from any of Joseph's relatives or acquaintances which relate that Joseph told them about any such experience. However, DOZENS of Joseph's 1820's acquaintances related great detail about Joseph's years-long folk-magic/treasure-seeking practices. Entire books have been written about that subject alone. The upshot being that Joseph was NOT the humble, prayerful, Bible-reading teen that he portrayed himself as in his "official history." Everyone who dealt with him in the 1820s described him as a ne'er do well of low character who did not want to do honest work for a living. Emma Hale's father Isaac refused to let Joseph marry his daughter in 1827: "I first became acquainted with JOSEPH SMITH, Jr.1 in November, 1825. He was at that time in the employ of a set of men who were called "money-diggers;" and his occupation was that of seeing, or pretending to see by means of a stone placed in his hat, and his hat closed over his face. In this way he pretended to discover minerals and hidden treasure. His appearance at this time, was that of a careless young man--not very well educated, and very saucy and insolent to his father. Smith, and his father, with several other `money-diggers' boarded at my house while they were employed in digging for a mine that they supposed had been opened and worked by the Spaniards, many years since. Young Smith gave the `money-diggers' great encouragement, at first, but when they had arrived in digging, to near the place where he had stated an immense treasure would be found--he said the enchantment was so powerful that he could not see. They then became discouraged, and soon after dispersed. After these occurrences, young Smith made several visits at my house, and at length asked my consent to his marrying my daughter Emma. This I refused, and gave him my reasons for so doing; some of which were, that he was a stranger, and followed a business that I could not approve." These events occurred during the period when Joseph later claimed that he was being mentored by "the angel Moroni" to prepare to translate the golden plates. Clearly, the actual young Joseph Smith was very different from how he portrayed himself when he wrote his life story.
I left the church 8 years ago and only this past year learned that Joseph didn't tell the "missionary" version of the vision for many many years after he claimed it happened. In other versions he told about ONLY seeing an angel. Or Only seeing Jesus. And no mention of asking about other churches, or being bound by the enemy as he tried to pray. The first vision story anchored my testimony and it was a LIE.
@@krakenfan6818 When I was a missionary half a century ago, the first discussion we taught to investigators was the "Joseph Smith story." We had to memorize and recite the basics of the "first vision story" which began "It was on the morning of a beautiful clear day, early in the spring of 1820" yada yada. I still have my missionary discussion book in my attic, "The Uniform System For Teaching Families." I began studying my way out of the church and learning about all of these inconsistencies when I was in my late 30s.
I wanted to join my mom (she’s 83) and siblings in church today for the Christmas Sunday service. I literally had PTSD and was getting ill. My mom was excited I was there. I had to sleep the rest of the day.
@@Thebishopsinterview No, I didn’t comment about it on facebook. I have family who may see it on someone’s public post. I’m LifeAccordingto Kath there.
The gospel topics essays were the start of my decision to leave the church. I read them while waiting for a senior mission call. I told my husband, who was also on the journey of discovering truth, that I could not in good conscience serve a mission, so we asked our bishop to withdraw our request to serve.
I was a 5 time Young Woman President and very devoted convert for decades. When I discovered that my leadership had knowingly lied to me about EVERYTHING I was completely devastated 💔
Also just a note Oliver cowdery was Jospeh’s cousin and he was a congregation member at the author of view of the Hebrews , pastor Ethan smith”s church. And Oliver helped publish the view of the Hebrews.
I purchased View of the Hebrews and though it is a VERY dry read, it is yet another source that helped convince me that Joseph Smith absolutely DID write the Book of Mormon with help from others.
All religions are plagued with contradictions. For anyone who decides to use comkon sense and a fair amount of reading and research and comparative study, all churches and religions are man-made. They may be only useful in the sense of guiding people to do good but that is where it ends. If we look at churches and how they operate, they behave as a corporations seeking the highest return on the money they extricate from those who believe they are paying for salvatikn and exaltation. Cone to think about it, not different at all from the Catholic church and all others. I dont think I need to buy salvation or exaltation. That is a modern take on religious capitalism. 🤣🤣🤣🤣
Thank you. I think Brigham Y was more to blame in many aspects. He laid the foundation and reinforced much of the suspect doctrine. BY was also a vile evil being.
Brigham Young carried on the doctrines and practices exactly as Joseph Smith had taught them to him. And Brigham wasn't the only one. Several dozen other church leaders learned the same things from Joseph in Nauvoo. That's why they followed Brigham west.
43:10 This is where my shelf broke. We claim that we are the only church with the authority. Then we read in Jacob 5 in the allegory of the vineyard a description of how God tried over and over to establish his church on earth and failed. So Jacob 5 gives credibility to all the other religions at least in their inceptions, bút we now teach that they are all wrong.
Great Information, this man knows what he's talking about. These are facts that I want to look up for myself, and with the help of computers, I can find out if Mr. Hinkly is exaggerating or telling the truth in this video.
I wish you well on your journey. I still enjoy parts of the faith, but I am very saddened at the slow degradation of goodness in society as a whole. I don't like how individuals are hijacking any institution by lying (I mean within the church). Sadly, it was Gordon B. Hinckley that signed of in 2004 in keeping all the funds secret. He was a favourite prophet of mine. I'm stuck as what to do as I have had intense spiritual experiences before and during joining the church. I've seen and met christ outside my body many times in my life... but he never said which church was true, i was just encouraged that this one would be helpful to me. (But I love any religion/non-religion that promotes kindness and equality. I myself love the native American reveals about the past (the nemenhah records, birch bark scrolls, etc..).. but I think its just a guide like all other scriptures (as far as they are translated correctly). I still prefer my personal experiences over anything. Good luck on your journey with your family, I hope you find what you are looking for and need.
Hello, I have listened to your Mormon Stories episodes - your own story plus the recent one. Now the Genie of the Almighty YT Algorithm has recommended your channel, so I am a new subscriber here. I appreciate you sharing your story so publicly. I also wonder how many of your congregation, TBM friends and family have ever asked you why you left directly. You may have mentioned that in your MSP interview, apologies for not remembering all the details. I am a NeverMo in Utah who used to really resent the political control of the Brighamite Church on the city and state. By extension I struggled to appreciate all my TBM (and it turns out PIMO, ex, and across the faith spectrum) Mormon neighbors and co-workers. For all the shade thrown at ex-members, it is you content creators who have taught me so much and greatly increased my compassion for average members. It is quite the opposite for the upper leadership. After a brief investigation of the church's truth claims years ago, I was shocked anyone could believe any of it. I have a nice NeverMo bubble of a community here so just went back to my day to day life. At the time I did not understand indoctrination and culty (high control) undue influence. Since the $250+Billion CoJCoLDS isn't going anywhere soon, I hope it does slowly get dragged into a healthier doctrinal system and cultural ethos over time for the sake of members and the wider community alike. It does not just affect members, especially here in Utah! Internal ATC does not seem to work very well, only external public pressure and bad PR (which of course they will deny). So thank you for speaking out, especially as a former bishop. I know several here in town, and am so much more sympathetic to the stress and demands put upon untrained volunteers! Best wishes for healing and well-being for you and your family as well as your community. Merry Christmas, Happy New Year, Happy Holidays, or whatever you choose to celebrate and make your own wonderful seasonal traditions.
These are great learning videos for members of the Church. When we see missionaries we like to put them in a box, as if the formality or choice to serve = understanding and testimony etc.. ¿¿ Each individual in the Church needs to experience the intended fruits of the gospel for themselves, including missionaries. Many of them don't even understand what true conversion is all about.
Thanks so much for being so clear in your explanations. It seems as if you’re on a path of discovering who God really is. Had to walk through that too after coming out of a charismatic cult. May I recommend Lee Stroebel’s book, The Case for Christ, and Evidence that Demands A Verdict by Josh McDowell?
@@bret3039 from individuals, yes. From the $300+ Billion corporation, nope. See the church website library and look for Gospel Topics essays about Book of Abraham, Joseph Smith's polygamy and the timeline of each of JS's versions of the "first" vision. . That will be a good start. The church admits to things they have denied and claimed as "anti-Mormon" for decades or longer.
I personally love the New Testament. And I love the Book of Mormon. Both have molded me into a more Christlike person. Don’t really care much if they are historically accurate. And I don’t see any Mormonism in either of them.
I like the way you said this. This is how I'm feeling. I think Joseph was called to bring the book of Mormon specifically for that reason, to help people come to Christ more fully to be truly christian. There's a whole chapter in mosiah about how important is to take care of the poor. Its all about how to be Christlike
While I do care if they are true I do agree with you that there is no Mormonism in either book. The whole temple thing beyond the Kirtland temple and the proposal of but not the building of the Nauvoo temple(Brigham changed the specifications dramatically) is a fabrication straight from the twisted, evil mind of Brigham Young. He was a disgusting follower of Satan and Joseph even said at one point "If Brigham ever takes control of the church he will lead it straight to hell". And he did. I don't think all members will go to hell but that is in God's hands so I won't worry about that. I am trying to get my own mind cleared out and trying to follow Christ the way 3Nephi 11 shares with us in Christ's own words the doctrine of Christ: 32 And this is my doctrine, and it is the doctrine which the Father hath given unto me; and I bear record of the Father, and the Father beareth record of me, and the Holy Ghost beareth record of the Father and me; and I bear record that the Father commandeth all men, everywhere, to repent and believe in me. 33 And whoso believeth in me, and is baptized, the same shall be saved; and they are they who shall inherit the kingdom of God. 37And again I say unto you, ye must repent, and become as a little child, and be baptized in my name, or ye can in nowise receive these things. 38 And again I say unto you, ye must repent, and be baptized in my name, and become as a little child, or ye can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God. 39 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine, and whoso buildeth upon this buildeth upon my rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against them. 40 And whoso shall declare more or less than this, and establish it for my doctrine, the same cometh of evil, and is not built upon my rock; but he buildeth upon a sandy foundation, and the gates of hell stand open to receive such when the floods come and the winds beat upon them. Brigham and others since him have added and taken away from to the point that there is much evil in the church. The leaders are so corrupt.
Smith incorporated into the Book of Mormon many of the teachings from the Methodist preachers during the time of the Second Great Awakening. One in particular is the sermon by King Benjamin. It is a knockoff of the sermons by their famous preacher Benjamin Abbott. The early Methodists were very sincere and devout, so it's understandable that their writings would inspire you.
@@mm7365 that's not what I'm saying. I think that some people are predisposed/chosen/genetically more likely/able to commune with the divine in a more intimate/complex way, and be able to produce powerful scripture. I think Joseph was one of those people. Scripture is more impactful and inspirational than a normal fictional tale. Its not meant as history but as a means by which we can learn about the divine and how to commune with it and grow towards it. When your a toddler you are taught the road is "bad" and dangerous and will kill you. On one level that is true but on another level the opposite is true, it's an amazing tool for logistics and travel and an amazing feat of engineering and itd be hard to even have all the conveniences and infrastructure we have today without it. So, when you teach a child they learn as a child, but when they are older they put away childish things. We know that stories of Superman would resonate FAR more with a child than the complex heart wrenching, tear pulling story of an even more amazing true historical hero, but they wouldn't understand that story because they are a child. So you tell them stories about Superman. The superman story is "literally" false, but in actuality even MORE amazing heroes exist, so it's actually true in a way. Scriptures are Gods way of teaching us the truth in a way WE can understand it. He could not teach truly literally exactly what is true at his level because we could never understand that in his terms/language/knowledge/understanding. Its like an ant "prophet" teaching other ants about an "amazing queen ant" greater than all the other queen ants that can move the whole colony with a mere thought to a new and promised land full of food and happiness, but the "queen ant" is a loving gigantic human with a metallurgically fashioned shovel that cares for the ants well being. They could never understand what a shovel is even if you explained it to them for 1000 years. Or the power humans possess or how the world works or how physics works etc. But if you teach them in their language culture/terms/understanding they can grow. God does this with use using divine stories through divine words of scripture. Some people/humans have a higher capability to understand a glimpse of these truths and articulate them in a way we can understand and feel inspired to follow. Christ is the epitome of this example. He is the "representative" of GOD if he actually was here among us. We could NEVER understand who God is in a literal sense or in the true-ist literal of terms/language because he is SO far beyond our understanding, in a whole higher plane of existence. BUT, we can understand Yeshua/Jesus. He is who God would be if he was here with us, that's why he told us "when you see me you see the father" he uses our language and terms because it's the closest to the truth and it's the best way that he can be represented. An all loving perfectly judging merciful and infinitely powerful father. We can grasp that. The Book of Mormon helps people of the Modern time, especially modern christians understand more about faith, how to communicate with the divine, what's truly important, and how to be like Christ. All scripture isn't perfect though it's mixed with people's thoughts and other things etc. But it's the best we've got, and it's how things like this work, it's how the divine communicates with us. The Divine spark within you helps YOU navigate the truths of the things you hear and read and see. That's the "spirit". If you try to be like Christ, read scriptures (of many origins) then the spirit (that Divine spark in you) will speak to your heart and mind and help you grow and transform, it will help you discerne what in those scriptures is divine and what is not. Scriptures are powerful things, don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. If you become an adult and things become revealed to you and you see beyond childish things, then seek after the deeper adult lessons. Anyways, I hope whatever scripture you feel God/The divine speak to you through, you are seeking through it and reading it and using it as a tool to grow closer to the divine and to those around you. I feel like for me, the book of Mormon has served me very well in this regard as has the new testament. As well as pieces of the old testament and the doctrine and covenants and pearl of great price.
Nathan can i ask you an honest question has losing the LDS faith turned you away from God enitrely, did you become agnostic or did you because a biblical christian
There is plenty to go after relative to BoM historicity. Deutero-Isaiah and long ending of Mark anachronisms, for example. The biggest anachronism to me was presented by John Lundwall on Mormonish podcast, the highly literate society assumed by the voices/characters in the BoM is a blatant anachronism, one of many examples of how the BoM is a product of the milieu JS inhabited.
I do not understand you when you said our current prophet. As a former member of the mormon church, I do not believe in mormon prophets, to me just a regular person so...
Nathan, you have done a great job of articulating the issues which led you away from the Church. No doubt, you also have since then encountered other big problems with the Church. Some of those would be: 1. The DNA evidence that proves the origin of Native Americans and Polynesians ("Lamanites") to be northeast Asia. There is no DNA evidence linking our indigenous peoples to Middle Eastern Hebrews. 2. The large bundle of anachronisms in the Book of Mormon. Even the book itself is an anachronism as to time, place, and culture. 3. The Book of Abraham is not a translation from the papyri which Joseph Smith possessed. All these major issues and more are fleshed out in many sources on line and in published books.
Interestingly, the church's own Gospel Topics essays admit that there is no relation between what is on the papyrii and the story that Joseph Smith wrote as the "Book of Abraham."
@@krakenfan6818 Well, what choice do they have? If they admit that the BOA is bogus, that would lead them down the slippery slope to admitting that the BOM is fake too. And that would be the end of Mormonism.
First Book of Napoleon. "I Napoleon being of small statue....."BofM "I Nephi being of large statue....." Those first words was a big start of my shelf breaking along with the books you mentioned. Of course, the plagiarism of biblical passages of the King James edition used in Joseph's day that contained errors reproduced in the BofM.
Many people leave the church for many different reasons and only God knows why,but people must understand people in the church made choices to hide information away from the saints and try cover up what they did and alot of the saints became complicit with these prominent Mormons and didn't dare to basically find the truth...because certain Mormons don't like it when other Mormons tell these prominent Mormons that they are in the wrong...that they need to be held accountable for what they have done...but if you look back God warned all the saints about not being honest ...so allot of things that happened to the saints at various times happened because they thought they could get away with it and god would give them a pass because of the position they hold in the church...God won't give them a pass...he will hold them accountable for all wrongs they did...and all the lies they told and hid from the saints...people need to understand its not the church that is in the wrong, its the individuals that hold powerful positions in the church..they made the decisions that is basically costing the church today..
@@Thebishopsinterviewbtw, this is a great show. All valid reasons. You call them layers, and I call them rabbit holes. I’m down a million rabbit holes.
Thank you for sharing and I knew the church is not true when I was about 12-13 years old. but I was feared my dad and he was strong beleive in the church.. I resigned from the church and knew that the church is NOT honest.. thanks again:)
I had a Mormon friend, probably more than friends much of the time, and the main issue was her Mormon faith, did not fit my own, and we could never find a way to reconcile those differences. But watching this and other things I have picked up in my furthering my religious journey, I know I made the right choice not to convert. May I ask did you replace Mormonism with another religion? I get that many here from reading the comments were hurt by a fake church, but Christ still died for you, in hopes that you believe and follow Him, so I hope you find a proper church that preaches the true Gospel. I'd say if nothing else find a bible, not Joseph Smith's translation and read at least the 4 Gospels. Give them an honest look without the taint of Mormonism. I just fear after leaving a bad church, it is easy to give up on religion, when really I think you were just in a corrupted version of the truth.
I first learned of the Norris Stearns "vision" account by reading "The Creation Of The Book Of Mormon" by Lamarr Peterson, published in 1998. Peterson was an SLC history buff who rubbed shoulders with Jerald and Sandra Tanner and other area people who were researching true Mormon history at the time. I other words: I didn't learn about that fact by finding it on the internet. I bought an actual book and read in there. Peterson also cited the other "visions" of the period from Charles Finney, Asa Wild, etc. It's obvious that Joseph Smith borrowed his claim of his "vision" from those reports which preceded his. If you want to learn more, I suggest that you go to a website called Mormonthink, click on "Joseph Smith," and then click on "First Vision." It contains pretty much every historical source on the subject.
@@Commenter2121 so…it was my understanding that he taught it and Brigham lived it. I didn’t learn about the 33 wives and the rest of the stuff until I was 44. Almost 2 years ago
@ I feel you, it can very painful to find these things out. I was always taught that polygamy was a later addition by Brigham Young in Utah. I was early 30’s when I learned that Joseph had anything to do with polygamy, let alone the details.
@@Thebishopsinterview Polygamy has been a major issue for me too. Luckily, there are some issues within our history on polygamy that are being corrected. For example, the happiness letter is not from Joseph Smith. I’m not saying that Joseph had nothing to do with it but much of the narrative is being revisited.
@ I should clarify, this letter has always been controversial, but more people are determining that it is not from Joseph. Gerritt Dirkmatt is a good source on this, and he’s a very faithful church historian. This is highly likely to be a Jon Bennett forgery.
Good greif I heard all this when 14 this stuff happening even today when you see modern authors and even in anceint times. It's called how everyone learned to read and write.
Interesting video, and I empathize with a lot of your concerns. However, you seem to use the "shotgun" approach - throwing a whole bunch of disparate things against the issue hoping one of them sticks. Many of your accusations rely on the truth of the words of LDS leaders and members (if you believe them, why don't you *believe* them?), or on late or questionable sources by motivated writers. I would enjoy this much more if you actually did *original* research, found source documents, and thought through the implications of each of your statements. If "x" is true, what does that mean for "y"? Who if anyone was actually telling the truth? What IS the truth? And why does any of this matter? I appreciate your sincerity and earnestness. Imo, every LDS and ex-LDS person has really good reasons for questioning everything, and possibly throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Best of luck finding your way forward.
Many historians over the last 150+ years have studied original source documents and done original research. One of the most knowledgeable and credible being Fawn Brodie, author of "No Man Knows My History: The Life of Joseph Smith, The Mormon Prophet." If you're interested in studying historical source documents, I recommend you check out Dale Broadhurst's Mormon Classics E-Texts website. Or the Utah Lighthouse Missions website archive. Or a website called Mormonthink. I've been studying Mormon history regularly for 28 years. I can assure you that everything Nathan Hinckley mentioned in this video is authentic, and has been published by numerous historians over many years.
I read on the church gospel library app about different accounts of the first vision. In 1832, he wrote that the Lord appeared to him when he was 16. In 1838, he wrote that two personages appeared to him when he was 15. So, why did he change his story?
@@lotion_laura It's because he made it up. Nobody who knew Joseph Smith in the 1820s recalled that he told them about having any visit from God and/or Jesus. The only accounts talk about his story that the angel Nephi/Moroni appeared to him to tell him about his future mission and the golden plates. In fact, Joseph's mother and his brother William both stated that Joseph's interest in religion was spurred by the preaching of circuit rider George Lane. But Lane did not begin preaching in the Palmyra area until 1823. So when you consider that Joseph didn't even begin making claims of a visit from God/Jesus until 1832, he was simply inconsistent in the time frame and the details of his made-up experience. If someone cannot relate an alleged event the same way twice, that means they made it up.
@@randyjordan5521 How many of the different accounts of the first vision were written in Joseph's own handwriting, "found" during his actual lifetime? That's a very good place to start. I don't at this time believe any of his accounts personally, but there is much more to this story than just Joseph Smith.... A lot of these overly-simplistic "I know for a fact" assertions in the exmo community are narrow-minded at best.
Do your own praying to know the truth. As for me and my house we still believe the Church is the only True one. Joined at 25 and served for 56 years. Are you saying I lived my life for a lie. Although the more I delve into the Truth the adversary fights me every step of the way. May be going into 2nd Temple marriage. Although they are not Temple divorces . Thanks for interesting things to here about.
Yes -- the Mormon "church" is NOT the only true church. That IS a lie. Yet many Mormons believe it -- which is understandable when you realize how much programming goes into Mormon's lives. The "true" church (of Jesus Christ) is *SPIRITUAL*. It consists of anyone and everyone, anywhere and everywhere, who at any time has placed their faith in Jesus Christ as their Savior (including Mormons who have placed their faith in Jesus Christ as their Savior ). While it is *NOT* any organization or building -- anywhere, at any time, congregations of those who have placed their faith in Jesus as their Savior (i.e. the "true" church) typically do organize into groups and organizations, build buildings in which to share worship and other ministries, and use organizational tools such as doctrines, by-laws and budgets to manage these assets. Yet NONE of these (doctrines, by-laws and budgets) constitute the "true" church of Jesus Christ. The "true" church of Jesus Christ is found within the heart of each individual believer within any organization (a.k.a. "church", "sect", denomination, religion, etc.). Conversely -- to be sure -- while there are multiple groups of believers in Jesus Christ (congregations, "churches", sects, denominations, religions, etc.), not every member of those organizations may have necessarily placed their faith in Jesus Christ as their Savior, and in such instances, while they *ARE* members of the *organization* , they are *NOT* members of the "true" (SPIRITUAL) church of Jesus Christ.
"Although the more I delve into the Truth the adversary fights me every step of the way." LOL. That's quite a Freudian slip there. If you study more about Mormon history and you learn that the church hasn't told you the truth about it, that isn't "the adversary" working on you. It's your BRAIN telling you that you have been lied to.
That's quite a Freudian slip there. If you study more about Mormon history and you learn that the church hasn't told you the truth about it, that isn't "the adversary" working on you. It's your BRAIN telling you that you have been lied to.
The Late War??? You have to be kidding me. And that graphic. :-) (Yes, I have seen it before.) This is why I can't bother with ExMo's. EITHER you're not being honest about actual motives OR you are incapable of intelligent, critical thought. I don't know which is worse but either way, it goes to credibility.
"The Late War" is just one of many pre-existing sources that Joseph Smith could have plagiarized. If you paid attention to the beginning of Nathan's video, you would have noted that he first cited BH Roberts' "Studies of the Book of Mormon." Roberts concluded that it was almost a certainty that Joseph plagiarized from Ethan Smith's book "View of the Hebrews". The Book of Mormon was not written in a vacuum. In case you aren't aware, the idea that native Americans were descended from displaced Hebrews who had emigrated from Israel was the prevailing theory for their origin in Joseph Smith's day. Joseph Smith was aware of that theory, because it was repeated by multiple scholars in his milieu. The Book of Mormon merely parrots that now-debunked theory. Native Americans are actually descended from Siberian/Mongols who crossed into the Americas circa 20-25k years ago. There is no evdence that any Hebrew/Semitic people came into the Americas before Columbus. So regardless of which pre-existing sources Joseph drew ideas from, the basic premise of his book is false.
"The Late War" is just one of many pre-existing sources that Joseph Smith could have plagiarized. If you paid attention to the beginning of Nathan's video, you would have noted that he first cited BH Roberts' "Studies of the Book of Mormon." Roberts concluded that it was almost a certainty that Joseph plagiarized from Ethan Smith's book "View of the Hebrews". The Book of Mormon was not written in a vacuum. In case you aren't aware, the idea that native Americans were descended from displaced Hebrews who had emigrated from Israel was the prevailing theory for their origin in Joseph Smith's day. Joseph Smith was aware of that theory, because it was repeated by multiple scholars in his milieu. The Book of Mormon merely parrots that now-debunked theory. Native Americans are actually descended from Siberian/Mongols who crossed into the Americas circa 20-25k years ago. There is no evidence that any Hebrew/Semitic people came into the Americas before Columbus. So regardless of which pre-existing sources Joseph drew ideas from, the basic premise of his book is false.
Well done. The weakest of all your evidences is at minute 35ish, because god's word is the same yesterday, today, and forever (problem in itself) and so of course profets will get the same message from god at different time--yea verily it is actually PROOF that it's from god because God speaks the same to all his profets.
Jesus came to die on the Cross to carry our sins in Hell and God the Father rose Him from the dead on the third day. Jesus went through this Sacrifice so that we may have a perfect relationship with God and each other for eternity. Jesus did not come to create new religions instead He came to give His Precious Life to each one of us. You just need Jesus and the Holy Spirit to be in perfect Peace with God the Father though Jesus' perfect Sacrifice on the Cross. 🙏❤️
With all due respect to you Brother, we must consider that since Satan knows history and the scriptures very well , he would have had ample time, knowledge, and Purpose to inspire Gilbert J Hunt to write the late war book, in other words Satan knew the Book of Mormon before it was translated and Printed which is why he tried in vain to Prevent Joseph from praying to ask God which was the true Church. Also remember the timing of the Appearances of the Angel Moroni, occurring around the same time The Late War Book was first Published. My Position is that I am a member of 41 years 38 Active, but having come to the knowledge of the other version of Church History which is very well hidden from the members, the same as Kimballs Revelation on the Priesthood never being issued to the Church, only as a Proclamation to the World, so the members never saw that Revelation to test it, let alone the missing 12 John Taylor and Wilford Woodruff Revelations from the Doctrine and Covenants. Does a False Prophet allow himself to be Murdered ? I rather think not. The last dictated Revelation that The Lord Jesus Christ gave was to Wilford Woodruff in 1889, which must be a huge embarrassment to the False Prophet Clowns who are at the Head today. They have all been Presidents only since Joseph F Smith. To me The Late War Book is more proof of Satan's efforts to Thwart Gods Purposes with the Book Of Mormon.
Damn! Wow to that Satan guy! God really screwed up creating him and then giving him all that power. Seems like he’s as all knowing and as powerful as God himself. And all he had to do was fall from grace and God said, “now, here’s all this power, so you can go screw with people and their faith up so that I can test them. Just so wild! Wonder if he knows he’s going to lose in the end but will still get to rule over hell or outer darkness or something like that?
"we must consider that since Satan knows history and the scriptures very well , he would have had ample time, knowledge, and Purpose to inspire Gilbert J Hunt to write the late war book, in other words Satan knew the Book of Mormon before it was translated and Printed which is why he tried in vain to Prevent Joseph from praying to ask God which was the true Church." LOL. I literally cannot argue with logic like that.
I'm listening to all his arguments against the restored gospel of Jesus Christ, and I'm not convinced. The evidence presented is weak at best, and there are many logical fallacies. What weak moral theology has he substituted in its place?
I think it takes alot of mental gymnastics or faith to believe that the BOM isn't a major plagiarism from other texts but all the best to you in your beliefs
There is no "restored gospel." Joseph Smith made it all up. Joseph had been a folk-magician con artist from at least 1822 to 1826. On March 20, 1826, he was convicted of fraud for his practices. That event spurred him to evolve his scheme from folk-magic to a religious-based one. This evolution was known about and published in newspapers shortly after Joseph published his book and founded his church. For instance: "It is well known that Joe Smith never pretended to have any comunion with angels, until a long period after the pretended finding of his book, and that the juggling [folk-magic] of himself or father went no further than the pretended faculty of seeing wonders in a 'peep stone,' and the occasional interview with the spirit, supposed to have the custody of hidden treasures: and it is also equally well-known that a vagabond fortune-teller by the name of Walters, who then resided in the town of Sodus, and was once committed to the jail of this county for juggling, was the constant companion and bosom friend of these money-digging impostors."---"Palmyra Reflector," February 28, 1831. Also: "A few years ago the Smith's and others who were influenced by their notions, caught an idea that money was hid in several of the hills which give variety to the country between the Canandaigua Lake and Palmyra on the Erie Canal. Old Smith had in his pedling excursions picked up many stories of men getting rich in New England by digging in certain places and stumbling upon chests of money. The fellow excited the imagination of his few auditors, and made them all anxious to lay hold of the bilk axe and the shovel. As yet no fanatical or religious character had been assumed by the Smith's. They exhibited the simple and ordinary desire of getting rich by some short cut if possible... "It was during this state of public feeling in which the money diggers of Ontario county, by the suggestions of the Ex-Preacher from Ohio, thought of turning their digging concern into a religious plot, and thereby have a better chance of working upon the credulity and ignorance of the [their] associates and the neighborhood. Money and a good living might be got in this way. It was given out that visions had appeared to Joe Smith -- that a set of golden plates on which was engraved the "Book of Mormon," enclosed in an iron chest, was deposited somewhere in the hill I have mentioned. People laughed at the first intimation of the story, but the Smiths and Rangdon persisted in its truth. They began also to talk very seriously, to quote scripture, to read the bible, to be contemplative, and to assume that grave studied character, which so easily imposes on ignorant and superstitious people. Hints were given out that young Joe Smith was the chosen one of God to reveal this new mystery to the world; and Joe from being an idle young fellow, lounging about the villages, jumped up into a very grave parsonlike man, who felt he had on his shoulders the salvation of the world, besides a respectable looking sort of a blackcoat. Old Joe, the ex-preacher, and several others, were the believers of the new faith, which they admitted was an improvement in christianity, foretold word for word in the bible. They treated their own invention with the utmost religious respect. By the special interposition of God, the golden plates, on which was engraved the Book of Mormon, and other works, had been buried for ages in the hill by a wandering tribe of the children of Israel, who had found their way to western New York, before the birth of christianity itself. Joe Smith is discovered to be the second Messiah who was to reveal this word to the world and to reform it anew."---New York Inquirer, August 31, 1831. This is why there is ZERO evidence to support Joseph's claim of an 1820 visit from God and Jesus. He did not make that story up until AFTER he had published his book and founded his church. Everyone who dealt with Joseph in the 1820s described him as a ne'er do well who did not want to do honest work. And if there was no "first vision," there is no "restored gospel." And the fact that there is ZERO evidence to support the authenticity of the Book of Mormon, that was made up too. That means that Mormonism is a made-up religion like many other sects of Joseph's era were made up, such as the Shakers, the Oneida community, the Christian Scientists, the Seventh-Day Adventists, the Millerites (who evolved into the Jehovah's Witnesses), etc.
" What weak moral theology has he substituted in its place?" I can't answer for Nathan, but since I left Mormonism, I've found that "reality" works for me.
Good for you Nathan! You've done thorough research, study, analyzed the perplexing events or situations, and concluded with your findings. It's imperative to conduct thorough research and evaluation, compare the pros/cons or the benefits/drawbacks of something or someone before making wise logical decisions!
Good for you Nathan! You've done thorough research, study, analyzed the perplexing events or situations, and concluded with your findings. It's imperative to conduct thorough research and evaluation, compare the pros/cons or the benefits/drawbacks of something or someone before making wise logical decisions!
I was also all in for 30 years, having married a Mormon and converted. I had many questions which were never answered, my temple experience didn't bring me beauty or peace - quite the opposite - and I ended up ordering a pile of books from Amazon. Bushman, Mason, Quinn, Palmer, Vogel, Brodie. I found the polygamy thing, read D&C 132 properly, found the Adam Clarke commentary, The Late War, read everything historical, first vision accounts, women's journals. Turns out nobody in the church read any of that, believing everything was anti-mormon literature! Prop 8 came and I was getting fed up with the anti-gay, anti-dark-skin comments in my community and from the pulpit and at the age of 70 and widowed, I resigned. It wasn't easy but here I am, free at last! Love to all the new (and old!) free-thinkers who had the guts to get out. May you feel light and happy. Have a great Christmas everyone! ❤🎉🎄 Thank you dear bishop!
Thank you for sharing a part of your story. I appreciate it.
Wow!
Now 83 years old, I resigned my membership in the Mormon church eight years ago. You have mentioned in another podcast that you suffered mental problems as a result of your Mormon experience. Sixty-two years ago, while on my mission in Mexico, I suffered a breakdown. As a direct result of the trauma, I have suffered from PTSD for the same amount of time.
During my life I have lived in three countries, visited 15 countries, and set foot on four continents. I have learned a great deal about Roman civilization from living in Europe, I have visited almost every major pre-Colombian archaeological site in Mexico. And I have been to some mound sites in the Midwest. I have studied the history of Mexico on site, including pre-Colombian sites. Also, I have become a scholar about Book of Mormon history as well as that of the Old and New testaments.
I mention my Mormon-related mental health journey on Mormonism Live, episode 54, and I compare what I know about Roman civilization in Europe with my understanding of the so-called "Lehite" civilization in the Americas. Supposedly, both civilizations were contemporaneous. You can find the comparison on The Backyard Professor, episode 125. I suggest them to you simply for your information, hoping to share some of my insight from my life experience.
Kudos for being 75 when you resigned - That's my mom's age and I've all but resigned myself to the idea that she will never not be active - but your story keeps a small glimmer of hope alive.
That's an analogy I have used in discussing the Book of Mormon's authenticity problems many times over the years. The Romans invaded Britain in 43 AD. They built roads, aqueducts, baths, and many other edifices which still stand today. Ancient Roman coins are still being unearthed in Britain today. There are many thousands of descendants of those Romans living in Britain today.
By contrast, there is ZERO evidence of the "Book of Mormon people" anywhere in the Americas. And there is no DNA evidence which shows that Hebrew/Semites entered native American populations before Columbus.
Leaving the church is so hard. I’m going through it now. I go back and forth, it’s mental gymnastics.
🫂 you are not alone!!
When my wife and I and our four kids stopped going to church, it was a relief for all of us. Our kids were 5 to 16 years old at the time. We just told them one night "We're not going to church anymore." They all kinda gave a collective sigh of relief. None of them liked going anyway.
@@randyjordan5521 liar.
@@JLH1946 liar.
Carefully, very carefully, deconstruct, one bite at a time, you will begin to figure out where you want to land
As a convert to the church who never believed its literal truth claims, leaving after many decades of activity was beyond stressful. Hearing your story today, I can only imagine the pain that you and your family are experiencing. They say it takes a year out for every decade in the church to recover. Wishing you comfort and peace during this transition.
If only I could've had this information 55 years ago.
I feel this
A lot of it's been on the internet for 25-30 years now.
@randyjordan5521 I needed the information at a young age.I was a programmed TBM .
@@randyjordan5521 but not on the church website before the Gospel Topics Essays.
Isn't it irronic, that God gave us brains to think, and ask questions and yet many religions that claim to represent God here on earth are the very ones, trying the hardest, to shut down your thinking? They will shame you, gaslight you, and cast you out of their club for questioning and challenging their authority and that is okay. That was all they really were to begin with, was a club. God seeks the heart, however in the end most churches are after your bank account.
Randy Bell and his information about Dartmouth College…. Amazing information
My shelf broke when I served as a stake YW president in South America. My budget for the year was $1000 a year for six wards. The mission president home live in a $12,000 a month mission home and his kids were going to the American school (20,000 per kid per year times four) When I asked to increase my budget for a party I was asked to spend my own money.
@@howieroarke My son suffers from PTSD, to point of physical illness" also from his mission experience. It has angered me and frustrated me to no end but I tried to convince myself that it was acceptable but I hadn't put it together about the ptsd until I read you comment. I am no sure enough about Joseph and the Book of Mormon being false yet and I don't believe that Joseph practiced polygamy. Michelle Stone of the 132 problems podcast, Jeremy Hoop of the Still Mormon podcast and a few other have shown documentation of his innocence. Add to that there is no posterity other than with Emma. So whether he was a fraud or not I don't believe he was guilty of that sin.
I don’t believe for a moment that “the Church” is true, but I believe the gospel is true. I believe the Book of Mormon is true. I believe that Joseph was a true prophet of Christ. I believe he was murdered, not by angry ex-Mormons (although there probably were some in the crowd), but I believe it was a group of high-ranking church leaders who plotted it. Leaders who wanted to practice polygamy and set themselves up as kings over the people. And Joseph was in the way. And Hyrum was the obvious person to lead after Joseph. So they killed them both, led the people west, ruled over them like kings, became extremely wealthy, and of course took as many wives for themselves as they could.
@@bgmullins Yeah, that is pretty much where I am at. If you haven't seen the movie Who Killed Joseph Smith by Justin Griffin then I suggest you and others watch it here on youtube or on his website.
@@bgmullinswhat evidence do you have for believing?
@@icecreamladydriver1606 My children, through their Mormon father's line, are related to Fanny Alger, and her uncle Levi Hancock. He and Smith were good friends. In Levi's life story he tells how Smith made a deal with him. Smith would get Clarissa Reed for him if Levi would get Fanny Alger for Smith. Levi then went in the middle of the night to where she was staying, and helped her climb out of her window, and down into a produce wagon. He then transported her for forty-five miles to where Smith was living. His cousin Oliver Cowdery even called him out on his predatory actions, calling it a dirty, nasty, filthy affair.
Also, in the life story Levi quotes Smith as to the reason that they started polygamy. Smith and his inner circle were from European royal bloodlines, and wanted to spread their genes as far as possible to perpetuate those lines. They wanted to prevent what they called the "careles" from propagating their inferior genetics into the general population.
Excellent research done Nathan.
Awesome Nathan, thank you for sharing your story!
Naw man. You're reasons are incredibly sound. I'd not yet heard of "The Late War" correlation but wow, its like the cherries, nuts and sprinkles on top of the other things that destroyed my faith. Thankfully, I'm fully resigned and out of the church and thriving. I'm grateful to see you here on RUclips sharing, despite the deep loss and pain that you and your family went through to get to this point.
@@Smootiful Thank you so much for that
I am very much looking forward to future episodes.
Nailed it. Thank you for your story. Sending love and support from Iowa.
I'm new subscriber number 735. I first saw you on Mormon Stories Podcast. This is a great video! I'm on a quest for truth and this was very helpful. Thanks and God bless.
I love you man you’re not alone and thanks for sharing this wonderful story. It’s been 2 1/2 years for me. Parts of it get easier but parts of it are still really really painful. Thank you so much for sharing your story and all the reasons this was so well said.
Excellent! Very well spoken and thought out. Thank you and Merry Christmas to you and yours.
Good for you Nathan! You've done thorough research, study, analyzed the perplexing events or situations, and concluded with your findings. It's imperative to conduct thorough research and evaluation, compare the pros/cons or the benefits/drawbacks of something or someone before making wise logical decisions!
Well done! I was born into the church & left this year after 54 years! My story is similar to yours but mine started with a study of the bible. I had never read the bible before, because of course its "not translated correctly". I don't know why I decided to study it but I'm glad I did because as I was reading the bible there were too many contradictions between what I was taught which sent me searching for answers. I then discovered the CES letter. Then the gospel topics essays which I never knew existed. Just like you, I had never heard of polyandry. The more I discovered the angrier I got. I felt like a fool for being deceived for so long. Long story short, the Mormon church is not true but the bible is. I thank God for bringing me out of the Mormon church! And just my opinion, it seems to me over the last 10 years the church is trying to identify itself with more traditional Christianity probably because it's hemorrhaging members.Yesterday's doctrines are today's "He was speaking as a man."😂
You're just a fake.
Great summary! I wish the church would get real and recognize these problems in a healthy way that doesn’t leave some of its members feeling isolated, disillusioned, and crazy.
Your video helped me feel less of the sad emotions above. Thank you for that!
A saying goes: "A system gotten up in lies must be maintained by lies." Because the church's origin story is bogus, the leaders and scholars can't help but keep lying about it.
,Thank you for talking about some of the many experiences that can and do lead to leaving "the" church. Truth concerning all religions and teachings is being exposed. Everyone will have a painful adjustment ahead.
Thank you Nathan for sharing your story!
I’m not Mormon but have been studying it a lot. I also live in East Tennessee also. Your video is very interesting, I think one of the best I’ve watched.
I'm in east Tennessee too. Nathan was a kid in my ward when my family left the church in 1998.
@@randyjordan5521
I’m in the tri city area.
I’m a Baptist. I had Mormon friends in school, I’ve always thought Mormons were very nice, hard working, family oriented people.
I’ve not read the whole Book of Mormon, but I’ve read the first book, Nephi, I think.
The problem I have with it, is that Nephi is supposedly written in 600 or so BC, and it gives such a detailed account of Jesus’s baptism and crucifixion. That seems so out of place for 600bc.
I know the Old Testament prophets gave prophesies of Christ, but they were more vailed in poetic language. The old testament never mentions baptism, and I don’t think crucifixion was even a thing in 600 bc.
I chose the 3rd path!! I stay active and BURN in the middle!! I do not wear garments or pay tithing. I love the people/saints and going to church/community. I help my family members and serve. I hold up two middle fingers to the leaders especially Elder OAKS!
What is wrong with Oaks?
@@SidVranes He is the STRICT ONE!!!! Every Mormon knows that!!!!! oh your not Mormon sorry..
@@SidVranes He wants to HOLD on to the PAST and be like it was in 1950!!!!
You must have a stronger stomach than mine. I left that church because I could no longer sit in Sunday School and priesthood classes and listen to things being taught that I knew were false.
This was excellent and concise. Thank you.
I see comments about the Mormon Church being false, but some other form of Christianity being true. Those folks should try using the same critical tools in evaluating the Bible as they used to debunk the Book of Mormon. Nathan did a great job of showing the BofM was a 19th century production, drawn from Joseph Smith's cultural and literary milieu. The Bible is no different in that respect. The Bible is a collection of myths that were alive at the time when the several "books" were written down, including the creation myth, the flood myth, and the human sacrifice myth. If you want to learn truth about the big questions, move on to science, not to another delusion. And maybe throw in some philosophy. Use the tools of logic, evidence, and reason, not necessarily what feels good or what you want to believe. It may come as a surprise, but science and ethics offer a very sound morality to live by, how to treat other people and how to live in a society. There are some good ethical teachings in the Bible, as well as some that are not so good, even atrocious.
You need to listen to Wes Huff. He is Protestant Christian who has spent his life studying the bible and the actual historical events. There really was a man who was crucified and then people saw him alive later on. As for the Flood myth, that has ben debunked. There is a great deal of information on the reality of the flood.
You might consider doing some research . The Bible is based on provable historical accounts unlike the Book of Mormon .
@@icecreamladydriver1606 The flood happened. Evidence shows that.
@@Billvardy Seriously? Let's start with some "provable historical accounts" of the absurdities. I'm waiting.
@@billyates3226... The same God that set up the physical world with all the physical realities that can be proven by physical means and tests, also set up the unseen SPIRITUAL world where we'll live a lot longer than our relatively short stint in this PHYSICAL portion!!! (forevermore)... Can't begin to see how atheists like YOU, attribute ALL the blessings that we have today, to results of EVOLUTION...
The BIBLE'S main purpose is NOT to inform of physical realities that came with the creation of the world (science books do a great job of explaining matters of the physical world)... The BIBLE'S purpose is to prepare us for SPIRITUAL life in the unseen forevermore of the hereafter...
In 1Corinthians13:11 it says... "When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things." Continuing to take the Word LITERALLY means continuing to see things from a childish perspective... Though you may think of yourself as wiser than wise, in TRUTH you've chosen voluntarily to repeat the same grade-school mentality/thinking-style over and over... (see Groundhog Day movie)...
Getting past that, requires finally accepting that the Bible's message, as well as much of Jesus's counsel, is given in parabolic form (NOT to be taken literally)... Wishing you well...
Nathan, Mike here. First, I’m enjoying your content and want to congratulate you on leaving (or escaping) Mormonism. I do recognize that faith deconstruction from Mormonism is not a party for you and your family. But I see it as a necessary step if an individual is to find faith in Jesus coming out of a manufactured religion like Mormonism. I think all of your reasons for leaving are valid and I hope you continue to share those details. From an outsider NeverMo Christian perspective, I think the main reason one should leave Mormonism is that Mormonism teaches a false gospel and a perverted nature of God and salvation is in the line. You’ve mentioned you felt God’s presence in nature, so let’s start there. If He exists, do you still want to know Him? If He exists, do you want to have eternal fellowship with Him? Can we as sinful beings have fellowship with a Holy Almighty God without forgiveness of sin? Did Jesus live and die and raise from the dead to pay for that sin? (Does archeological evidence exist to prove Jesus existed?, contrasted to the lack of evidence for the BoM). If Jesus is real, will you consider belief in Him and consider the triune nature of God? I’d simply suggest that the Mormon Jesus wasn’t real…but Jesus is real and He wants you and your family to know Him today. I’d suggest some counseling with a Pastor from a nearby Bible-believing non-denominational church if available.
That being said, I think you’ve been a guest on Jesus for Mormons podcast and Mormonism Live. Would you consider reaching out to some other podcasts? From top of mind I’d suggest:
1. Faith Deconstructed
2. GLM (God Loves Mormons)
3. Mormon Book Reviews
4. think there are many more I could drum up, ask if wanted.
I have been looking into stylometric analysis in early Christian text studies (spoiler, there are as many problems in literalist / orthodox / faithful modern truth claims there as in Mormon texts). I think studies of the unique Mormon texts is also fascinating. I watched Chris Johnson's presentation on RUclips from 11 years ago but cannot find any published papers or work. So the website you showed here comparing the Late War looks really interesting. Could you post the direct link in the notes or here in the comments, Nathan? The purchased SEO power of the CoJCoLDS Communications department makes searching for non-apologetic materials really difficult, lots of junk to wade past. Thanks!
Amen Nathan! Thanks for sharing,
I left the church 35 years ago. Best thing i ever did! Thanks for sharing, great job bringing up the truth bombs of the lds corporation.
I was astounded when I compared The Late War text to the BOM. Factor in that from the earliest Vision version to the BOM publishing date, that is 10 YEARS. Joseph with help of others absolutely could have written the Book of Mormon. It is fiction.
A Century ago, the LDS scholar BH Roberts concluded that Joseph Smith had the talent and pre-existing source material by which he could write the BOM on his own. Also, there's no evidence to support Joseph's claim of an 1820 "first vision." The historical evidence suggests that he came up with the idea of writing his "golden Bible" after his fraud conviction of March 20, 1826.
who is the author?
@@IdahoTruthSeeker Gilbert Hunt's book The Late War, between the United States and Great Britain, from June, 1812, to February, 1815
Thanks!
Nathan, this is great information. Thank you.
At the 26 minute mark, Nathan talks about the various versions of Joseph Smith's alleged first vision. Even more suspect than the inconsistencies in the story, there is no evidence from any of Joseph's relatives or acquaintances which relate that Joseph told them about any such experience. However, DOZENS of Joseph's 1820's acquaintances related great detail about Joseph's years-long folk-magic/treasure-seeking practices. Entire books have been written about that subject alone.
The upshot being that Joseph was NOT the humble, prayerful, Bible-reading teen that he portrayed himself as in his "official history." Everyone who dealt with him in the 1820s described him as a ne'er do well of low character who did not want to do honest work for a living. Emma Hale's father Isaac refused to let Joseph marry his daughter in 1827:
"I first became acquainted with JOSEPH SMITH, Jr.1 in November, 1825. He was at that time in the employ of a set of men who were called "money-diggers;" and his occupation was that of seeing, or pretending to see by means of a stone placed in his hat, and his hat closed over his face. In this way he pretended to discover minerals and hidden treasure. His appearance at this time, was that of a careless young man--not very well educated, and very saucy and insolent to his father. Smith,
and his father, with several other `money-diggers' boarded at my house while they were employed in digging for a mine that they supposed had been opened and worked by the Spaniards, many years since. Young Smith gave the `money-diggers' great encouragement, at first, but when they had arrived in digging, to near the place where he had stated an immense treasure would be found--he said the enchantment was so powerful that he could not see. They then became discouraged, and
soon after dispersed. After these occurrences, young Smith made several visits at my house, and at length asked my consent to his marrying my daughter Emma. This I refused, and gave him my reasons for so doing; some of which were, that he was a stranger, and followed a business that I could not approve."
These events occurred during the period when Joseph later claimed that he was being mentored by "the angel Moroni" to prepare to translate the golden plates. Clearly, the actual young Joseph Smith was very different from how he portrayed himself when he wrote his life story.
Quiet liar.
@WatchingwaitingG2D still lurking we all see 😂
I left the church 8 years ago and only this past year learned that Joseph didn't tell the "missionary" version of the vision for many many years after he claimed it happened. In other versions he told about ONLY seeing an angel. Or Only seeing Jesus. And no mention of asking about other churches, or being bound by the enemy as he tried to pray. The first vision story anchored my testimony and it was a LIE.
@@krakenfan6818 When I was a missionary half a century ago, the first discussion we taught to investigators was the "Joseph Smith story." We had to memorize and recite the basics of the "first vision story" which began "It was on the morning of a beautiful clear day, early in the spring of 1820" yada yada.
I still have my missionary discussion book in my attic, "The Uniform System For Teaching Families."
I began studying my way out of the church and learning about all of these inconsistencies when I was in my late 30s.
@TS-iv9ml You don't see anything pass your mouth.
I wanted to join my mom (she’s 83) and siblings in church today for the Christmas Sunday service.
I literally had PTSD and was getting ill.
My mom was excited I was there. I had to sleep the rest of the day.
@@TexasTornado66 dang…did you post about that on facebook? I think I read it there
@@Thebishopsinterview No, I didn’t comment about it on facebook.
I have family who may see it on someone’s public post.
I’m LifeAccordingto Kath there.
It's like seeing an old friend's corpse, but everyone around you is still talking to him like he's still alive.
Saw you on with bill and rfm, glad to hear your story!
The gospel topics essays were the start of my decision to leave the church. I read them while waiting for a senior mission call. I told my husband, who was also on the journey of discovering truth, that I could not in good conscience serve a mission, so we asked our bishop to withdraw our request to serve.
It's very telling that the church's attempts to be more truthful about its history causes more members to leave the church.
I was a 5 time Young Woman President and very devoted convert for decades. When I discovered that my leadership had knowingly lied to me about EVERYTHING I was completely devastated 💔
@@gigi1332 I feel that
same
@@gigi1332 liar.
@@sarahpinho1114 liar.
I appreciate this, thanks!
Thanks for sharing!
Also just a note Oliver cowdery was Jospeh’s cousin and he was a congregation member at the author of view of the Hebrews , pastor Ethan smith”s church. And Oliver helped publish the view of the Hebrews.
Wheee did you find this information? I would love to see this.
I purchased View of the Hebrews and though it is a VERY dry read, it is yet another source that helped convince me that Joseph Smith absolutely DID write the Book of Mormon with help from others.
@krakenfan6818 quiet pretender.
All religions are plagued with contradictions. For anyone who decides to use comkon sense and a fair amount of reading and research and comparative study, all churches and religions are man-made. They may be only useful in the sense of guiding people to do good but that is where it ends. If we look at churches and how they operate, they behave as a corporations seeking the highest return on the money they extricate from those who believe they are paying for salvatikn and exaltation. Cone to think about it, not different at all from the Catholic church and all others. I dont think I need to buy salvation or exaltation. That is a modern take on religious capitalism. 🤣🤣🤣🤣
Please go to church everyone. Jesus loves you and needs you.
Faith in Jesus Christ is so extremely important.
Thank you.
I think Brigham Y was more to blame in many aspects. He laid the foundation and reinforced much of the suspect doctrine.
BY was also a vile evil being.
Brigham Young carried on the doctrines and practices exactly as Joseph Smith had taught them to him. And Brigham wasn't the only one. Several dozen other church leaders learned the same things from Joseph in Nauvoo. That's why they followed Brigham west.
43:10 This is where my shelf broke. We claim that we are the only church with the authority. Then we read in Jacob 5 in the allegory of the vineyard a description of how God tried over and over to establish his church on earth and failed. So Jacob 5 gives credibility to all the other religions at least in their inceptions, bút we now teach that they are all wrong.
Great Information, this man knows what he's talking about. These are facts that I want to look up for myself, and with the help of computers, I can find out if Mr. Hinkly is exaggerating or telling the truth in this video.
I wish you well on your journey. I still enjoy parts of the faith, but I am very saddened at the slow degradation of goodness in society as a whole. I don't like how individuals are hijacking any institution by lying (I mean within the church).
Sadly, it was Gordon B. Hinckley that signed of in 2004 in keeping all the funds secret. He was a favourite prophet of mine.
I'm stuck as what to do as I have had intense spiritual experiences before and during joining the church. I've seen and met christ outside my body many times in my life... but he never said which church was true, i was just encouraged that this one would be helpful to me. (But I love any religion/non-religion that promotes kindness and equality. I myself love the native American reveals about the past (the nemenhah records, birch bark scrolls, etc..).. but I think its just a guide like all other scriptures (as far as they are translated correctly). I still prefer my personal experiences over anything.
Good luck on your journey with your family, I hope you find what you are looking for and need.
Hello, I have listened to your Mormon Stories episodes - your own story plus the recent one. Now the Genie of the Almighty YT Algorithm has recommended your channel, so I am a new subscriber here. I appreciate you sharing your story so publicly. I also wonder how many of your congregation, TBM friends and family have ever asked you why you left directly. You may have mentioned that in your MSP interview, apologies for not remembering all the details.
I am a NeverMo in Utah who used to really resent the political control of the Brighamite Church on the city and state. By extension I struggled to appreciate all my TBM (and it turns out PIMO, ex, and across the faith spectrum) Mormon neighbors and co-workers. For all the shade thrown at ex-members, it is you content creators who have taught me so much and greatly increased my compassion for average members. It is quite the opposite for the upper leadership.
After a brief investigation of the church's truth claims years ago, I was shocked anyone could believe any of it. I have a nice NeverMo bubble of a community here so just went back to my day to day life. At the time I did not understand indoctrination and culty (high control) undue influence. Since the $250+Billion CoJCoLDS isn't going anywhere soon, I hope it does slowly get dragged into a healthier doctrinal system and cultural ethos over time for the sake of members and the wider community alike. It does not just affect members, especially here in Utah! Internal ATC does not seem to work very well, only external public pressure and bad PR (which of course they will deny). So thank you for speaking out, especially as a former bishop. I know several here in town, and am so much more sympathetic to the stress and demands put upon untrained volunteers! Best wishes for healing and well-being for you and your family as well as your community. Merry Christmas, Happy New Year, Happy Holidays, or whatever you choose to celebrate and make your own wonderful seasonal traditions.
These are great learning videos for members of the Church. When we see missionaries we like to put them in a box, as if the formality or choice to serve = understanding and testimony etc.. ¿¿ Each individual in the Church needs to experience the intended fruits of the gospel for themselves, including missionaries. Many of them don't even understand what true conversion is all about.
Thanks so much for being so clear in your explanations. It seems as if you’re on a path of discovering who God really is. Had to walk through that too after coming out of a charismatic cult. May I recommend Lee Stroebel’s book, The Case for Christ, and Evidence that Demands A Verdict by Josh McDowell?
By their fruits ye shall know them.
For me, the fruit is sweet, encouraging, and brings me closer to Christ.
@@bret3039 from individuals, yes. From the $300+ Billion corporation, nope. See the church website library and look for Gospel Topics essays about Book of Abraham, Joseph Smith's polygamy and the timeline of each of JS's versions of the "first" vision. . That will be a good start.
The church admits to things they have denied and claimed as "anti-Mormon" for decades or longer.
I personally love the New Testament. And I love the Book of Mormon. Both have molded me into a more Christlike person. Don’t really care much if they are historically accurate. And I don’t see any Mormonism in either of them.
I like the way you said this. This is how I'm feeling. I think Joseph was called to bring the book of Mormon specifically for that reason, to help people come to Christ more fully to be truly christian. There's a whole chapter in mosiah about how important is to take care of the poor. Its all about how to be Christlike
If you don't care if they are accurate, than you believe a book that has been proven as fiction to be true?
While I do care if they are true I do agree with you that there is no Mormonism in either book. The whole temple thing beyond the Kirtland temple and the proposal of but not the building of the Nauvoo temple(Brigham changed the specifications dramatically) is a fabrication straight from the twisted, evil mind of Brigham Young. He was a disgusting follower of Satan and Joseph even said at one point "If Brigham ever takes control of the church he will lead it straight to hell". And he did. I don't think all members will go to hell but that is in God's hands so I won't worry about that. I am trying to get my own mind cleared out and trying to follow Christ the way 3Nephi 11 shares with us in Christ's own words the doctrine of Christ:
32 And this is my doctrine, and it is the doctrine which the Father hath given unto me; and I bear record of the Father, and the Father beareth record of me, and the Holy Ghost beareth record of the Father and me; and I bear record that the Father commandeth all men, everywhere, to repent and believe in me.
33 And whoso believeth in me, and is baptized, the same shall be saved; and they are they who shall inherit the kingdom of God.
37And again I say unto you, ye must repent, and become as a little child, and be baptized in my name, or ye can in nowise receive these things.
38 And again I say unto you, ye must repent, and be baptized in my name, and become as a little child, or ye can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God.
39 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine, and whoso buildeth upon this buildeth upon my rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against them.
40 And whoso shall declare more or less than this, and establish it for my doctrine, the same cometh of evil, and is not built upon my rock; but he buildeth upon a sandy foundation, and the gates of hell stand open to receive such when the floods come and the winds beat upon them.
Brigham and others since him have added and taken away from to the point that there is much evil in the church. The leaders are so corrupt.
Smith incorporated into the Book of Mormon many of the teachings from the Methodist preachers during the time of the Second Great Awakening. One in particular is the sermon by King Benjamin. It is a knockoff of the sermons by their famous preacher Benjamin Abbott. The early Methodists were very sincere and devout, so it's understandable that their writings would inspire you.
@@mm7365 that's not what I'm saying. I think that some people are predisposed/chosen/genetically more likely/able to commune with the divine in a more intimate/complex way, and be able to produce powerful scripture. I think Joseph was one of those people. Scripture is more impactful and inspirational than a normal fictional tale. Its not meant as history but as a means by which we can learn about the divine and how to commune with it and grow towards it. When your a toddler you are taught the road is "bad" and dangerous and will kill you. On one level that is true but on another level the opposite is true, it's an amazing tool for logistics and travel and an amazing feat of engineering and itd be hard to even have all the conveniences and infrastructure we have today without it. So, when you teach a child they learn as a child, but when they are older they put away childish things. We know that stories of Superman would resonate FAR more with a child than the complex heart wrenching, tear pulling story of an even more amazing true historical hero, but they wouldn't understand that story because they are a child. So you tell them stories about Superman. The superman story is "literally" false, but in actuality even MORE amazing heroes exist, so it's actually true in a way. Scriptures are Gods way of teaching us the truth in a way WE can understand it. He could not teach truly literally exactly what is true at his level because we could never understand that in his terms/language/knowledge/understanding. Its like an ant "prophet" teaching other ants about an "amazing queen ant" greater than all the other queen ants that can move the whole colony with a mere thought to a new and promised land full of food and happiness, but the "queen ant" is a loving gigantic human with a metallurgically fashioned shovel that cares for the ants well being. They could never understand what a shovel is even if you explained it to them for 1000 years. Or the power humans possess or how the world works or how physics works etc. But if you teach them in their language culture/terms/understanding they can grow. God does this with use using divine stories through divine words of scripture. Some people/humans have a higher capability to understand a glimpse of these truths and articulate them in a way we can understand and feel inspired to follow. Christ is the epitome of this example. He is the "representative" of GOD if he actually was here among us. We could NEVER understand who God is in a literal sense or in the true-ist literal of terms/language because he is SO far beyond our understanding, in a whole higher plane of existence. BUT, we can understand Yeshua/Jesus. He is who God would be if he was here with us, that's why he told us "when you see me you see the father" he uses our language and terms because it's the closest to the truth and it's the best way that he can be represented. An all loving perfectly judging merciful and infinitely powerful father. We can grasp that. The Book of Mormon helps people of the Modern time, especially modern christians understand more about faith, how to communicate with the divine, what's truly important, and how to be like Christ. All scripture isn't perfect though it's mixed with people's thoughts and other things etc. But it's the best we've got, and it's how things like this work, it's how the divine communicates with us. The Divine spark within you helps YOU navigate the truths of the things you hear and read and see. That's the "spirit". If you try to be like Christ, read scriptures (of many origins) then the spirit (that Divine spark in you) will speak to your heart and mind and help you grow and transform, it will help you discerne what in those scriptures is divine and what is not. Scriptures are powerful things, don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. If you become an adult and things become revealed to you and you see beyond childish things, then seek after the deeper adult lessons. Anyways, I hope whatever scripture you feel God/The divine speak to you through, you are seeking through it and reading it and using it as a tool to grow closer to the divine and to those around you. I feel like for me, the book of Mormon has served me very well in this regard as has the new testament. As well as pieces of the old testament and the doctrine and covenants and pearl of great price.
Nathan can i ask you an honest question has losing the LDS faith turned you away from God enitrely, did you become agnostic or did you because a biblical christian
Watch my first interview with Ron
it's not a loss, it's a gain
@@HunterWebb-sv1zz he became a phony like you did.
@@Thebishopsinterview You don't believe in God or belong to any religion.
There is plenty to go after relative to BoM historicity. Deutero-Isaiah and long ending of Mark anachronisms, for example. The biggest anachronism to me was presented by John Lundwall on Mormonish podcast, the highly literate society assumed by the voices/characters in the BoM is a blatant anachronism, one of many examples of how the BoM is a product of the milieu JS inhabited.
I do not understand you when you said our current prophet. As a former member of the mormon church, I do not believe in mormon prophets, to me just a regular person so...
I agree. I’m just simply saying I am still a member…and he is the “prophet”. It has nothing to do with my personal beliefs
@@Thebishopsinterview ok
@@Thebishopsinterview you're still nothing but a fake.
Nathan, you have done a great job of articulating the issues which led you away from the Church. No doubt, you also have since then encountered other big problems with the Church. Some of those would be: 1. The DNA evidence that proves the origin of Native Americans and Polynesians ("Lamanites") to be northeast Asia. There is no DNA evidence linking our indigenous peoples to Middle Eastern Hebrews. 2. The large bundle of anachronisms in the Book of Mormon. Even the book itself is an anachronism as to time, place, and culture. 3. The Book of Abraham is not a translation from the papyri which Joseph Smith possessed. All these major issues and more are fleshed out in many sources on line and in published books.
@@billyates3226 yes…all of those issues followed these original concerns
this.
Interestingly, the church's own Gospel Topics essays admit that there is no relation between what is on the papyrii and the story that Joseph Smith wrote as the "Book of Abraham."
@@randyjordan5521 And yet the church still includes it in their Standard Works.
@@krakenfan6818 Well, what choice do they have? If they admit that the BOA is bogus, that would lead them down the slippery slope to admitting that the BOM is fake too. And that would be the end of Mormonism.
First Book of Napoleon. "I Napoleon being of small statue....."BofM "I Nephi being of large statue....."
Those first words was a big start of my shelf breaking along with the books you mentioned. Of course, the plagiarism of biblical passages of the King James edition used in Joseph's day that contained errors reproduced in the BofM.
Many people leave the church for many different reasons and only God knows why,but people must understand people in the church made choices to hide information away from the saints and try cover up what they did and alot of the saints became complicit with these prominent Mormons and didn't dare to basically find the truth...because certain Mormons don't like it when other Mormons tell these prominent Mormons that they are in the wrong...that they need to be held accountable for what they have done...but if you look back God warned all the saints about not being honest ...so allot of things that happened to the saints at various times happened because they thought they could get away with it and god would give them a pass because of the position they hold in the church...God won't give them a pass...he will hold them accountable for all wrongs they did...and all the lies they told and hid from the saints...people need to understand its not the church that is in the wrong, its the individuals that hold powerful positions in the church..they made the decisions that is basically costing the church today..
You need to read Second Class Saints. Black and the Priesthood. By Matthew Harris 😳😳😳
@@user-mn447 yes…I’ve heard a couple interviews with him
@@Thebishopsinterviewbtw, this is a great show. All valid reasons. You call them layers, and I call them rabbit holes. I’m down a million rabbit holes.
Thank you for sharing and I knew the church is not true when I was about 12-13 years old. but I was feared my dad and he was strong beleive in the church.. I resigned from the church and knew that the church is NOT honest.. thanks again:)
I had a Mormon friend, probably more than friends much of the time, and the main issue was her Mormon faith, did not fit my own, and we could never find a way to reconcile those differences. But watching this and other things I have picked up in my furthering my religious journey, I know I made the right choice not to convert.
May I ask did you replace Mormonism with another religion? I get that many here from reading the comments were hurt by a fake church, but Christ still died for you, in hopes that you believe and follow Him, so I hope you find a proper church that preaches the true Gospel. I'd say if nothing else find a bible, not Joseph Smith's translation and read at least the 4 Gospels. Give them an honest look without the taint of Mormonism. I just fear after leaving a bad church, it is easy to give up on religion, when really I think you were just in a corrupted version of the truth.
Religion isn't essential for everyone.
Norris stearms account not recorded cannot find it and not cited.
Hilarious,..google. LDS Living even acknowledges it
I literally just googled Norris Stearns LDS Living and the article came up…just be honest dude
I first learned of the Norris Stearns "vision" account by reading "The Creation Of The Book Of Mormon" by Lamarr Peterson, published in 1998. Peterson was an SLC history buff who rubbed shoulders with Jerald and Sandra Tanner and other area people who were researching true Mormon history at the time. I other words: I didn't learn about that fact by finding it on the internet. I bought an actual book and read in there. Peterson also cited the other "visions" of the period from Charles Finney, Asa Wild, etc. It's obvious that Joseph Smith borrowed his claim of his "vision" from those reports which preceded his.
If you want to learn more, I suggest that you go to a website called Mormonthink, click on "Joseph Smith," and then click on "First Vision." It contains pretty much every historical source on the subject.
Nathan, how old were you when you first learned about Joseph’s polygamy?
@@Commenter2121 so…it was my understanding that he taught it and Brigham lived it. I didn’t learn about the 33 wives and the rest of the stuff until I was 44. Almost 2 years ago
@ I feel you, it can very painful to find these things out. I was always taught that polygamy was a later addition by Brigham Young in Utah. I was early 30’s when I learned that Joseph had anything to do with polygamy, let alone the details.
@@Thebishopsinterview Polygamy has been a major issue for me too. Luckily, there are some issues within our history on polygamy that are being corrected. For example, the happiness letter is not from Joseph Smith. I’m not saying that Joseph had nothing to do with it but much of the narrative is being revisited.
@ you got a source for that?
@ I should clarify, this letter has always been controversial, but more people are determining that it is not from Joseph. Gerritt Dirkmatt is a good source on this, and he’s a very faithful church historian. This is highly likely to be a Jon Bennett forgery.
GBH is also my second cousin 3x removed. 😊
I like going to Cove Fort in honor of that line of ancestors.
Thanks Cuz!
th deeper u dig the worse the cult of lies intimidation bullsht nonsense, mind control, extortion gets
Good greif I heard all this when 14 this stuff happening even today when you see modern authors and even in anceint times. It's called how everyone learned to read and write.
Interesting video, and I empathize with a lot of your concerns. However, you seem to use the "shotgun" approach - throwing a whole bunch of disparate things against the issue hoping one of them sticks. Many of your accusations rely on the truth of the words of LDS leaders and members (if you believe them, why don't you *believe* them?), or on late or questionable sources by motivated writers.
I would enjoy this much more if you actually did *original* research, found source documents, and thought through the implications of each of your statements. If "x" is true, what does that mean for "y"? Who if anyone was actually telling the truth? What IS the truth? And why does any of this matter?
I appreciate your sincerity and earnestness. Imo, every LDS and ex-LDS person has really good reasons for questioning everything, and possibly throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Best of luck finding your way forward.
Many historians over the last 150+ years have studied original source documents and done original research. One of the most knowledgeable and credible being Fawn Brodie, author of "No Man Knows My History: The Life of Joseph Smith, The Mormon Prophet."
If you're interested in studying historical source documents, I recommend you check out Dale Broadhurst's Mormon Classics E-Texts website. Or the Utah Lighthouse Missions website archive. Or a website called Mormonthink.
I've been studying Mormon history regularly for 28 years. I can assure you that everything Nathan Hinckley mentioned in this video is authentic, and has been published by numerous historians over many years.
I read on the church gospel library app about different accounts of the first vision. In 1832, he wrote that the Lord appeared to him when he was 16. In 1838, he wrote that two personages appeared to him when he was 15. So, why did he change his story?
@@lotion_laura It's because he made it up. Nobody who knew Joseph Smith in the 1820s recalled that he told them about having any visit from God and/or Jesus. The only accounts talk about his story that the angel Nephi/Moroni appeared to him to tell him about his future mission and the golden plates.
In fact, Joseph's mother and his brother William both stated that Joseph's interest in religion was spurred by the preaching of circuit rider George Lane. But Lane did not begin preaching in the Palmyra area until 1823.
So when you consider that Joseph didn't even begin making claims of a visit from God/Jesus until 1832, he was simply inconsistent in the time frame and the details of his made-up experience. If someone cannot relate an alleged event the same way twice, that means they made it up.
@@randyjordan5521 How many of the different accounts of the first vision were written in Joseph's own handwriting, "found" during his actual lifetime?
That's a very good place to start.
I don't at this time believe any of his accounts personally, but there is much more to this story than just Joseph Smith....
A lot of these overly-simplistic "I know for a fact" assertions in the exmo community are narrow-minded at best.
@@MormonRescue I guess you think the church's own website and app are hacked. Wake up.
Come out of Babylon and follow Jesus.
WOW
Do your own praying to know the truth. As for me and my house we still believe the Church is the only True one. Joined at 25 and served for 56 years. Are you saying I lived my life for a lie. Although the more I delve into the Truth the adversary fights me every step of the way. May be going into 2nd Temple marriage. Although they are not Temple divorces . Thanks for interesting things to here about.
dooo lern toooo reeed andd spellllll guuud
Yes -- the Mormon "church" is NOT the only true church. That IS a lie. Yet many Mormons believe it -- which is understandable when you realize how much programming goes into Mormon's lives. The "true" church (of Jesus Christ) is *SPIRITUAL*. It consists of anyone and everyone, anywhere and everywhere, who at any time has placed their faith in Jesus Christ as their Savior (including Mormons who have placed their faith in Jesus Christ as their Savior ). While it is *NOT* any organization or building -- anywhere, at any time, congregations of those who have placed their faith in Jesus as their Savior (i.e. the "true" church) typically do organize into groups and organizations, build buildings in which to share worship and other ministries, and use organizational tools such as doctrines, by-laws and budgets to manage these assets. Yet NONE of these (doctrines, by-laws and budgets) constitute the "true" church of Jesus Christ. The "true" church of Jesus Christ is found within the heart of each individual believer within any organization (a.k.a. "church", "sect", denomination, religion, etc.).
Conversely -- to be sure -- while there are multiple groups of believers in Jesus Christ (congregations, "churches", sects, denominations, religions, etc.), not every member of those organizations may have necessarily placed their faith in Jesus Christ as their Savior, and in such instances, while they *ARE* members of the *organization* , they are *NOT* members of the "true" (SPIRITUAL) church of Jesus Christ.
Interesting that he should feel bad when members believe every other church is a lie.
"Although the more I delve into the Truth the adversary fights me every step of the way."
LOL. That's quite a Freudian slip there. If you study more about Mormon history and you learn that the church hasn't told you the truth about it, that isn't "the adversary" working on you. It's your BRAIN telling you that you have been lied to.
That's quite a Freudian slip there. If you study more about Mormon history and you learn that the church hasn't told you the truth about it, that isn't "the adversary" working on you. It's your BRAIN telling you that you have been lied to.
The Late War??? You have to be kidding me. And that graphic. :-) (Yes, I have seen it before.)
This is why I can't bother with ExMo's. EITHER you're not being honest about actual motives OR you are incapable of intelligent, critical thought. I don't know which is worse but either way, it goes to credibility.
"The Late War" is just one of many pre-existing sources that Joseph Smith could have plagiarized. If you paid attention to the beginning of Nathan's video, you would have noted that he first cited BH Roberts' "Studies of the Book of Mormon." Roberts concluded that it was almost a certainty that Joseph plagiarized from Ethan Smith's book "View of the Hebrews".
The Book of Mormon was not written in a vacuum. In case you aren't aware, the idea that native Americans were descended from displaced Hebrews who had emigrated from Israel was the prevailing theory for their origin in Joseph Smith's day. Joseph Smith was aware of that theory, because it was repeated by multiple scholars in his milieu. The Book of Mormon merely parrots that now-debunked theory. Native Americans are actually descended from Siberian/Mongols who crossed into the Americas circa 20-25k years ago. There is no evdence that any Hebrew/Semitic people came into the Americas before Columbus. So regardless of which pre-existing sources Joseph drew ideas from, the basic premise of his book is false.
"The Late War" is just one of many pre-existing sources that Joseph Smith could have plagiarized. If you paid attention to the beginning of Nathan's video, you would have noted that he first cited BH Roberts' "Studies of the Book of Mormon." Roberts concluded that it was almost a certainty that Joseph plagiarized from Ethan Smith's book "View of the Hebrews".
The Book of Mormon was not written in a vacuum. In case you aren't aware, the idea that native Americans were descended from displaced Hebrews who had emigrated from Israel was the prevailing theory for their origin in Joseph Smith's day. Joseph Smith was aware of that theory, because it was repeated by multiple scholars in his milieu. The Book of Mormon merely parrots that now-debunked theory. Native Americans are actually descended from Siberian/Mongols who crossed into the Americas circa 20-25k years ago. There is no evidence that any Hebrew/Semitic people came into the Americas before Columbus. So regardless of which pre-existing sources Joseph drew ideas from, the basic premise of his book is false.
Are you questioning the existence of TLW book?
And yet here we are. Merry Christmas one and all. 🎄
Jesus said "I am the Way the Truth and the Life, no one comes to the Father except by me" John 14.6 in your bible you will find the truth.
Well done.
The weakest of all your evidences is at minute 35ish, because god's word is the same yesterday, today, and forever (problem in itself) and so of course profets will get the same message from god at different time--yea verily it is actually PROOF that it's from god because God speaks the same to all his profets.
So Brigham Young's Adam-God teachings were correct then?
Jesus came to die on the Cross to carry our sins in Hell and God the Father rose Him from the dead on the third day. Jesus went through this Sacrifice so that we may have a perfect relationship with God and each other for eternity.
Jesus did not come to create new religions instead He came to give His Precious Life to each one of us.
You just need Jesus and the Holy Spirit to be in perfect Peace with God the Father though Jesus' perfect Sacrifice on the Cross. 🙏❤️
Every statement you made is a claim and something you are parroting. Why should we believe you?
With all due respect to you Brother, we must consider that since Satan knows history and the scriptures very well , he would have had ample time, knowledge, and Purpose to inspire Gilbert J Hunt to write the late war book, in other words Satan knew the Book of Mormon before it was translated and Printed which is why he tried in vain to Prevent Joseph from praying to ask God which was the true Church. Also remember the timing of the Appearances of the Angel Moroni, occurring around the same time The Late War Book was first Published. My Position is that I am a member of 41 years 38 Active, but having come to the knowledge of the other version of Church History which is very well hidden from the members, the same as Kimballs Revelation on the Priesthood never being issued to the Church, only as a Proclamation to the World, so the members never saw that Revelation to test it, let alone the missing 12 John Taylor and Wilford Woodruff Revelations from the Doctrine and Covenants. Does a False Prophet allow himself to be Murdered ? I rather think not. The last dictated Revelation that The Lord Jesus Christ gave was to Wilford Woodruff in 1889, which must be a huge embarrassment to the False Prophet Clowns who are at the Head today. They have all been Presidents only since Joseph F Smith. To me The Late War Book is more proof of Satan's efforts to Thwart Gods Purposes with the Book Of Mormon.
Damn! Wow to that Satan guy! God really screwed up creating him and then giving him all that power. Seems like he’s as all knowing and as powerful as God himself. And all he had to do was fall from grace and God said, “now, here’s all this power, so you can go screw with people and their faith up so that I can test them. Just so wild! Wonder if he knows he’s going to lose in the end but will still get to rule over hell or outer darkness or something like that?
"we must consider that since Satan knows history and the scriptures very well , he would have had ample time, knowledge, and Purpose to inspire Gilbert J Hunt to write the late war book, in other words Satan knew the Book of Mormon before it was translated and Printed which is why he tried in vain to Prevent Joseph from praying to ask God which was the true Church."
LOL. I literally cannot argue with logic like that.
@@MandyAusmus You sound as though you somewhat doubt the story.
Must be satire...😊
Amazing defense 😂. I need to start a religion to get a piece of that tithing.
I'm listening to all his arguments against the restored gospel of Jesus Christ, and I'm not convinced. The evidence presented is weak at best, and there are many logical fallacies. What weak moral theology has he substituted in its place?
Wasn’t trying to convince you, just shared my story
I think it takes alot of mental gymnastics or faith to believe that the BOM isn't a major plagiarism from other texts but all the best to you in your beliefs
Tyler, name one logical fallacy. I'm a mathematician. Waiting...
There is no "restored gospel." Joseph Smith made it all up. Joseph had been a folk-magician con artist from at least 1822 to 1826. On March 20, 1826, he was convicted of fraud for his practices. That event spurred him to evolve his scheme from folk-magic to a religious-based one. This evolution was known about and published in newspapers shortly after Joseph published his book and founded his church. For instance:
"It is well known that Joe Smith never pretended to have any comunion with angels, until a long period after the pretended finding of his book, and that
the juggling [folk-magic] of himself or father went no further than the pretended faculty of seeing wonders in a 'peep stone,' and the occasional
interview with the spirit, supposed to have the custody of hidden treasures: and it is also equally well-known that a vagabond fortune-teller by the name of
Walters, who then resided in the town of Sodus, and was once committed to the jail of this county for juggling, was the constant companion and bosom friend of these money-digging impostors."---"Palmyra Reflector," February 28, 1831.
Also:
"A few years ago the Smith's and others who were influenced by their notions, caught an idea that money was hid in several of the hills which give variety to
the country between the Canandaigua Lake and Palmyra on the Erie Canal. Old Smith had in his pedling excursions picked up many stories of men getting rich in New England by digging in certain places and stumbling upon chests of money. The fellow excited the imagination of his few auditors, and made them all anxious to lay hold of the bilk axe and the shovel. As yet no fanatical or religious character had been assumed by the Smith's. They exhibited the simple and ordinary desire of getting rich by some short cut if possible...
"It was during this state of public feeling in which the money diggers of Ontario county, by the suggestions of the Ex-Preacher from Ohio, thought of
turning their digging concern into a religious plot, and thereby have a better chance of working upon the credulity and ignorance of the [their] associates
and the neighborhood. Money and a good living might be got in this way. It was given out that visions had appeared to Joe Smith -- that a set of golden plates on which was engraved the "Book of Mormon," enclosed in an iron chest, was deposited somewhere in the hill I have mentioned. People laughed at the first intimation of the story, but the Smiths and Rangdon persisted in its truth. They began also to talk very seriously, to quote scripture, to read the bible,
to be contemplative, and to assume that grave studied character, which so easily imposes on ignorant and superstitious people. Hints were given out that
young Joe Smith was the chosen one of God to reveal this new mystery to the world; and Joe from being an idle young fellow, lounging about the villages,
jumped up into a very grave parsonlike man, who felt he had on his shoulders the salvation of the world, besides a respectable looking sort of a blackcoat.
Old Joe, the ex-preacher, and several others, were the believers of the new faith, which they admitted was an improvement in christianity, foretold word
for word in the bible. They treated their own invention with the utmost religious respect. By the special interposition of God, the golden plates, on which was engraved the Book of Mormon, and other works, had been buried for ages in the hill by a wandering tribe of the children of Israel, who had found their way to western New York, before the birth of christianity itself. Joe Smith is discovered to be the second Messiah who was to reveal this word to the
world and to reform it anew."---New York Inquirer, August 31, 1831.
This is why there is ZERO evidence to support Joseph's claim of an 1820 visit from God and Jesus. He did not make that story up until AFTER he had published his book and founded his church. Everyone who dealt with Joseph in the 1820s described him as a ne'er do well who did not want to do honest work. And if there was no "first vision," there is no "restored gospel." And the fact that there is ZERO evidence to support the authenticity of the Book of Mormon, that was made up too. That means that Mormonism is a made-up religion like many other sects of Joseph's era were made up, such as the Shakers, the Oneida community, the Christian Scientists, the Seventh-Day Adventists, the Millerites (who evolved into the Jehovah's Witnesses), etc.
" What weak moral theology has he substituted in its place?"
I can't answer for Nathan, but since I left Mormonism, I've found that "reality" works for me.
You should come to the SDA Church we keep God's true Sabbath on Saturday the 7th day of the week! (Exodus 20:8-11)
I'd rather be a JW because they don't believe in blood transfusions.
Same logic, right?
Thanks for the invite
@@randyjordan5521No that's not true you can get a blood transfusion with the SDA religion!
@@randyjordan5521You need to get a blood transfusion to save your life!
@@randyjordan5521 Wrong you can get a blood transfusion in the SDA religion!
Inaccurate.
Just tell me where I’m wrong
@@Thebishopsinterview You have facial hair, therefore you must be wrong.
Good for you Nathan! You've done thorough research, study, analyzed the perplexing events or situations, and concluded with your findings. It's imperative to conduct thorough research and evaluation, compare the pros/cons or the benefits/drawbacks of something or someone before making wise logical decisions!
GBH is also my second cousin 3x removed. 😊
I like going to Cove Fort in honor of that line of ancestors.
Awesome Cuz!
Good for you Nathan! You've done thorough research, study, analyzed the perplexing events or situations, and concluded with your findings. It's imperative to conduct thorough research and evaluation, compare the pros/cons or the benefits/drawbacks of something or someone before making wise logical decisions!