Making Rollers For An Etching Press - Manual Machining And Welding
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- Опубликовано: 9 фев 2025
- A viewer sent me the drawing and asked me to make these. I had never heard of an etching press, but have made many rollers over the years. So, I knew I could handle it.
Unfortunately, this was no easy job. The design was not great with its flimsy shaft, but I managed to get it done.
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29:37 Josh lol, that's one of my words! 😂 fair play mate, honestly nice that you actually show it exactly how it is, just like me, big love buddy
I almost edited it out. Lol
@@TopperMachineLLC thank you for not editing it out Josh! I’m Scottish and that word is used in so many different ways. Mostly as a punctuation mark, and not always in a negative way either. There’s the happy c***, the good c***, the funny c*** and so on. Too many to list and just to say that you sir a a good c***! Keep going Josh god is gracious to good C***’s.
I love it. Shows how it really is
@@redmorphius this job was the worst rollers I've ever made. But I now know how to approach grossly undersized shafts.
@@TopperMachineLLC you almost need a 3 jaw tailstock . That would probably helped, or maybe run the steady rest on that shaft also
Good one . I like the shaft weld design . Don't forget you have a tailstock chuck , they would help settle things . Back years ago , i made about 70 of those things about 450 & 500mm dia , had to use a tool similar to a Kennametal fix 8 to deal with the chatter & turn from the centre back to the chuck then flip them around . The worst were the crowned ones that had to be done between centres with the tailstock off set as they were about 1200 mm long . That job nearly sent me batty from countless days welding with the rotator ! The good old late 1980's ! Cheers 👍👍👍
I was in the printing business for 27 years. I would rate this an A-1 round roller that will work well in any machine.
Thanks for the high praise.
Hey, i was in printing for a couple of decades as well. My experience was mostly sheetfed offset.
Is there any way you could use a steady rest to help calm the center disc down?
I really like your trick to control the heat affected zone on those rollers. That is a tip I definitely need to remember.
@robertoswalt319 time is money. Since the center disk doesn't much matter, it would be a waste of time to set up the steady. A much heavier shaft would cure all the problems.
I stumbled on the 2 x 4 trick years ago (1965) in a auto brake shop turning shoe type brake drums. A large rubber band wrapped around usually eliminated chatter. But one job ( a large truck bake drum still chattered. I held a 2x4 against it and the chatter stopped. Excellent work, Sir!
No one has ever accused Josh Topper of being a quitter !
Nope. I'm too stupid to quit.
I’m wondering (if you ever do another) if the cavities inside the roller could be filled with an inert material like cat litter prior to welding to preempt chatter ? Maybe some form of external heavy rubber band clamp ? Either more internal mass or external harmonic dampening ?
Bigger shaft is the correct answer.
@TopperMachineLLC, you should have used the big Johnson. 😂
Very informative and the "Toilet Paper" comment was spot on.
Thanks for the video. I love the process. It is so neat how you got everything trued up. I also like that you took the sharp edges off. Great job on the video. Good to see Rocky take a walk by to check on you.
Nice job on building the rollers. Keep sending the videos and we’ll keep watching them.
Thanks Joe I had a Father who was a Machinist and a brother who is still with us who was a Machinist also and I studied in Mechanical drafting but didn’t finish because I didn’t understand how to do Algebra which was a requirement that my counselor neglected to tell me about, fast forward to present day and I have a lathe that is left behind from my father and is a Korean made machine that I started working with and following several You Tube Machine operators and Machinists for tips and tricks and I have my Father’s tools at my disposal and I have used taps and Dyes for threading but have never turned threads on the lathe yet so I appreciate your videos! Thanks again and Happy Holidays to you
The board with the weight to help with the chatter is genius!!! Even though it didn't work perfect...still genius!!! I was sitting here postulating on how to help that chatter and the board and the weight is 99 times better than anything I came up with.
That roller design is genius 🏆
Thanks.
I like the way you secured the shaft in the disks, by using the gussets inside eliminates the break point a weld to the disk makes.
Back in my days as a mechanic, we would use a rubber strap around the outside of brake drums to dampen the ringing when turning. I wonder if adding a couple of rubber rollers to the 2x4 would help dampen the ringing a little more?
That's an interesting idea. Thanks.
I was thinking of something using rubber wheels when he was turning that center support. My thought was between the wheels of a steady rest and the two point support opposite of the grinder for a crank shaft grinding machine. I was thinking if you had a rigid spot behind the machine to mount an arm with spring loaded rubber wheels, I think it would dampen the chatter, give a little deflection support and with it spring loaded adjust itself through a cut when you were turning the OD of the roller
I, too, have made a lot of rollers. I've always done them wrong, welding around the shaft. Your plan makes sense. One thing we did different was make the shaft oversized, then turn it down between centers where the bearings install.
I agree on the shaft, but realistically for the application, it is way too small.
Another episode of Machining ASMR! Nice trick to keep the harmonics down. Thanks for showing us how it's done, Josh. Have a good week!
Thanks!
Thank you.
9:54 -TY.
20:46 - Your editing is really well done; showing enough to tell the story without any boring parts.
30:22 - Got some lead slugs which plumbers used to melt for CI sewage pipe joints. Cut V-grooves in them and use various clamping arrangements to add mass to the part which is chattering, but your method looks safer.
I love your honesty, some jobs are just challenging. As usual you did an excelent job!!
Thank you!
A learning experience for all of us!
Great tip on welding roller end plates Josh; goes to show you, your never to old to learn! Enjoy your videos!
We make cable drums for overhead cranes. They use much thicker tubing, maybe 2" thick and some 20' long. We usually weld in the endplates and the hubs and then bore the inside on the horizontal boring mills. The shaft is then usually pressed in. This way the shaft itself has no welding done to it. Then we put the whole thing in the lathe and turn the od and machine the cable grooves. We used to turn these in a large monarch but when they will fit we turn and groove them on Leadwell cnc lathe. The grooves come out beautiful.
I've done a couple small cable drums. They are fun. Always love cutting that beautiful round thread for the cable to track.
@TopperMachineLLC our one monarch cuts leads rather than threads per inch. It will cut leads like .875 or .750 or 1.25. Of course our cnc will cut any lead.
@TheJohndeere466 interesting. Myst have been set up that way from new?
@@TopperMachineLLC yes it was
Those roller welds must have been satisfying! Nice job.
I am hoping to begin the process of custom building an etching press and this has been very useful ! Thank you
Very nice job Josh.
Great idea on the shaft support gussets.
I like the 2x4 vibration dampner.
Thanks for sharing.
Have a great weekend. 👍🇺🇸👍
thank you
Thank you Josh!
Nice one Josh. Great video and tips. Glad the surface finish turned out really well. Cheers Tony
thanks
That fit was pretty damn good considering how it was looking on the lathe. 😮
That was a good idea the way you welded the end plates on. It's much stronger than welding all the way around and as you mentioned, it takes the stress away from the shaft. Now you've let the cat out of the bag!
I was hoping nobody would notice. Lol
Greetings from the oldest town in Texas, Nacogdoches. Hope you’re keeping warm and dry. A year ago a Rush Machinery 250A needed a home and it has been wonderful. It sharpens drills perfectly.
I looked at the rush machines.
Hi Josh, still a good result in the end. Those rollers are a pain, but longer ones are even more so. I’ve worked for various customers making them the way they want them, lower rpm’s , smaller radius tools with approach angle created to reduce tool pressure do help too. Yep, like the supports at rear of end flanges. For saw mills they weld on outside flanges for thru shafts as long as the weld sites were preheated. So when the shafts or keyways were flogged out I could turn off the welds and replace shaft only. And then there’s the carpet factory that wanted two stub shafts either end with four flanges. Oversized shafts, journal ends unwelded, but the rest all over shaft to flange fully welded. Machined flange/shaft stubs to fit roller tube, then 3 or 4 holes drilled to around roller to rosette weld the inner support flange. Preheat outer flange/roller tube and weld. As we had a large bore lathe with two chucks, I clock up both ends the best I could get it. Centre drill one end of shaft journal , then support with live centre and turn journal down to size. Then repeat process. There was no need the turn tube dia, it’s only carpet support rollers.
I love your work! You are an artist and a perfectionist, great job!
Thanks!
Nice to see you here once again, Josh!
Josh
Nice Job!
I thought I was the only that used the 2x4 follow rest. Another thing I have had good luck with is using a tool that uses a VNMP inset. It has a positive relief angle. No heavy cuts but very free cutting with very minimal contact area
No work coming in, means less money for tooling. I could have used some different tooling, but don't have the money to spend right now.
@
Totally understand
Most of my tooling has been garbage picked, liquidations, auctions & people who didn’t know what they had
I’ve gone back to milling parts with slab mills in the K&T just to not have the tooling cost. Most of my plain milling cutters came from a school auction. I thought I was bidding on about 10 cutters
Ended up with 4 5 gallon buckets of cutters. It was actually the trade school I went to in the early 80’s
Love that weighted two x four and the improvement it brought in finish. Sometimes a brazed carbide tool works better than an insert on jobs like this.
A positive rake insert would have helped too.
Josh, regarding your vibration issues while turning the rollers to finished size, you have made whats called a "Closed end Resonator" or "Stopped end Resonator" this explains the sound (and vibration) that you are getting. Your use of a "deadening arm" helped due to dampening the oscillations. In wood turning there are designs for a vertical vibration dampener using an adjustable weight attached to the head stock. Speeds and feeds of course help too.
Thanks for sharing,
---M---
Great video as always. Love your tenacity and how you solve problems!
Glad you enjoy it!
Josh, thanks for another great video. I like that you showed some of the difficulties involved with what should be a fairly simple part to make. I had to laugh at some of the innuendos in this video. Early on you commented that it's a "small shaft and it's hard to get a good grip on it". I wanted to reply with "That's what she said!! As another viewer noted at 29:38 your frustration produced a hilarious comment. I eagerly await the drop of your videos on Saturday mornings. I really like your follow up videos also. Thanks again and have a Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays.
i really like the snap-jaws for a mill vise best money i have spent !! thanks for the videos keep them coming!
Me too. Absolutely love them.
I would not be without them in a job shop
I found your presentation most informing and very interresting. Thank You!
What I have been doing with rollers is making the shaft bigger and turning them to size on the end found this helps with the chatter the other thing I stumbled across while using the same inserts shape and rake as you are using was to feed backwards ( from chuck to tail stock) it was the only thing that worked for that one job
@workingovertime4429 I asked the customer if I could make the shaft that way. "No, do it as designed" what a bad design.
Well as I was taught rule 1 the customer is always right rule2 if customer is wrong refer to rule1 well thanks for another good video looking forward to the Wednesday video
I didn't ever think to go that slow when evading chatter. I guess I believed too much in all that "carbide needs high SFM" stuff they taught me. Today i learned, you can slow waaay down and it works great if time isnt an issue. Thank you!
That exactly what we do for our wind generator bases. Kept having them snap at the circular welds. Did long gussets and skip welding them.
Drill and tap the end plates, fill it with water for turning, then drain at the end. Works well.
Wow that was interesting. Learned a lot thanks Josh.
From kiwi land.
Josh, you're the man! Laughed at your invective at 29.38 minutes in. 😆🤙
Glad to provide some entertainment! 😄
Loved the wood follow rest! A shame you didn’t have some of the brake drum turning dampening straps to try. Could you have used a pipe plug in one end so you could pour it full of sand machine it and dump it out?
Your 2x4-weight worked, When I had to true brake drums at work, we had a 2.5in wide 1/4in thick rubber band that rapped around the drum to keep them from ringing. Turned out nice. Have a Merry Christmas and Happy New year Josh
Love this manual machining. The power plant I worked at for many years had an enormous machine shop - sadly, hardly ever in use. Cheaper to outsource, I guess.
Wow nice! Thanks for sharing your way to Go on these shafts Josh! I love your absolutly nice skills and craftsmanship and i love your Videos too! I am a metalworker by my Self in germany and have to admid that you would easy pass the „Master“ Test here in germany.
Greetings from over the big sea. And thanks for all your Videos! I enjoy them absolutley every time
Thank you.
That was pretty innovative with the board and weight. Cool.
Nice tip for axle, A simple solution that makes total sense after you see, but not easy to figure out.
Well done, Josh!! Chatter can be a real pain in the butt!!! Perseverance always wins!
Thanks for sharing some of your valuable experience with us. Suggestion; for less chatter use an insert with a smaller radius or a sharp HSS tool with positive side rake, 15 degree lead angle, and a very small tip radius.
I need to order some smaller radius inserts. It's on the list if work ever comes back it. No money right now.
@@TopperMachineLLC HSS will work in a pinch. You can actually grind carbide inserts to make them sharper with a smaller radius if you have a carbide grinder with a diamond wheel.
Never an easy product to manufacture. Tough nut cracked Josh.
Thanks for sharing
Happy days Josh, hope you're keeping well buddy, thanks for sharing 👍
I use the same basic system when woodturning a long thin piece. It gets in the way, but it stops the squeal.
Perseverance!
I've seen something like that done with what amounted to a pneumatic wheelbarrow tire on a follow rest. Water part-filling the tire.
Excellent job Josh..
Optical delusion 🤣thats a new one. I'll use that one for sure, cool tip with the rollers👍🇦🇺👌
your hand grind on the flutes looks like it made a beautiful chip, even if your center grind was a bit wandery
Yeah, the center needed to be split a little more.
Some times you learn, some times you earn. All is Good. Thanks
I knew I wasn't the only one that uses lumber to stop the ringing on pipe! I have four foot long 4"×4" post I cut the belly out of with a 6" by 2" steel cutoff lag bolted to the end at work for this very purpose. I used to get a lot of shit for it but after seeing how effective it is I haven't heard a thing lol. 👍👍
Well done. Very good video.
Good job as always. 😊
Thanks for sharing
nice job there always showing us the how to get it done Cheers
Wonderful Josh…..❤
A TPG insert cutter will cut with less chatter compared to the CNMG.
I was trying to figure out what insert would be better. We always turned rollers with cnmg. I was thinking a smaller radius.
Often times brazed carbide or premium high speed tooling works best, that is if you are adept and capable at sharpening them.
You got the job done, that’s what counts!
Keep up the good work
JIM ❤
@@TopperMachineLLC Especially on a manual lathe, the rake angles on a CNMG make small vibrations turn into huge chatter. Even with different top surface shapes, the downward angle the inset is held creates forces that can't be over come. A TPG with a 1 size nose held square to the cut will knock out a lot of those forces. Especially on a manual lathe.
One of the tricks we used at RMERC was a polyurethane cast tire over a cast iron roller and using it as a damping roller. Attached to the back of the lathe and swung up vertically when not needed. It must employ adjustable tension as to not deflect the spinning part. We tried it with follow rests but follow rests are limited diameter devices and tend to be in the way, obviously. It seems today, with computerized speeds, most harmonic issues are solved by varying RPM on the fly.
Great work!
You're awesome man!
Thank you!
On some engine lathes you can vary the RPM as you cut, which might keep the cut from talking back at you. This works well on CNC lathes, but that isn't what we are doing here. Ive done many tube shafts myself.
Hi Josh, just a thought but could you drill a couple of holes in the diameter of the tube about half way and weld the centre disc in place. It may reduce the harmonics a little by adding rigidity. Great video. Bob UK.
Done applications call for welded internal plates. The only thing that would have fixed this problem would be a much larger shaft.
Awesome video learned a ton!
I’d like to see that other head in action. I’m dying up a right angle attachment right now. Hopefully I’ll have time to go pick it up next week
You shoulda tried your chuck instead of the if it’s accurate. Maybe it would hold it tighter? Just a thought, certainly not telling you how to do it
🤫 I hope this was marked as "Not for kids" Good job on the video. Keep up the good work.
One thing you might try is having a block of wood, like a 2 by 4 or 4 by 4 were the notch in the end of it and holding it against the shaft to stabilize the cut probably about a 2 ft long piece would do it...
Never mind... 😊
Too late. Beat you too it. Lol
Ill be looking forward to learning what that rear head on the mill is all about. I've never seen one of those before, but my Mill has a spot for it as well.
>>Nice heavy-duty roller for sure! Thanks for the videos!
There were several options for the BP. This is just one of them.
Good job
Good stuff
I use taper lock bushings
When turning od tool upside down and vnmp insert or a thread insert
A job like this, I wonder if they make a collet chuck that will go into the tailstock.
As you said, the camera,lighting and the rotation speed can cause illusion . No wagon wheels going backwards but an exaggerated wobble on the end shots. All down to camera frame rate, lighting frequency and turning speed, so too much to try to coordinate. Thanks for sharing. Subscribed.
Looking forward to the follow up video on this one. I am curious if in retrospect you would have tried anything different (maybe HSS tooling vs. carbide?). Do you think if you used a tailstock chuck it would have helped with the rigidity at all? I learn a lot from watching your channel, Josh. Thanks for sharing.
Nice
Great video, shows the complexity to turn with large ratios. Maybe similar to piano strings and their cloth dampeners, some cloth with weight can damper better? Also put it in the middle / quarter of the roller, and not directly where the cutter is. There usually is an optimal dampening spot which is related to the length vs mass of the object, it isn't related to the position of the source of vibration, thats why the tone doesn't change with movenent, only intensity
Its rolls like that that gave me grey hair.
Sometimes it only worked turning from the chuck to the tailstock. Sometimes a different insert. A lot of the time i would use the two by four trick. It was always different. But, you persevere, walk away from it if it's pissing you off. Go smoke 'em if you got 'em. 😅. Yea, the small journals dont help.
You got er done. Nice.
Cheers from Canada.
I wish conveyor roller manufacturers would adopt the three plates and weld gussets.
Resonance can be a real pickle sometimes. 🎉
Nice tracer cutting torch in the background. Ever use it much? Nice tip on roller construction. Wish I had known about this technique while I was still working. The company that supplied rollers for our equipment did the weld around the shaft thing and of course they broke. I could have informed them to try your method. But then again if they built parts that lasted they wouldn't have repeat business for rollers.
I noticed the front of the tail stock raise up a bit when contacting the work piece, maybe adding to the chatter
I think that was an optical delusion. The tailstock can not move, it's rigid. The flimsy shaft of the roller could have been flexing.
👍 Great design - thanks for showing the details.
The design was awful. Flimsy shaft. It really should have been 1.625 or bigger.
I meant your gussetted approach to supporting the end plates for reducing heat. I should have been more specific. But - I'm lazy when it comes to typing. What can I say? I have no idea what machine these are going in to so I can't comment on the shaft size for the intended use - except that if the customer is going to put much load on them in the press these rollers aren't going to do much pressing. I could figure out what load will deflect how much - but like I say - lazy. 😁
@StuartsShed I expressed my concern to the customer, but he approved. 6000 lbs of force. The bearings better be right tight to the end plate. I hope it works.
Woah. 6000 on those. I may FEA that just for the hell of it. Like you say - if the bearings aren't right up against the end plates....................... well shit, let's find out.
At around 13:12, I was a little surprised you had the edge of the insert so close to parallel to the edge of the disk. It looks to me that you don't start getting chatter until about a quarter of the way into turning the disk, and at that point it looks like the shaft is flexing and the edge of the disk is bouncing against the flat of the insert side. I'm pretty sure I can see chips coming off the disk way back from the cutting point of the tool, indicating contact with the side of the insert. I wonder if you had used a pointy-er insert, or clocked the holder so only the corner of the insert contacted, if you might have had less problems with chatter.
Good point. That flimsy little shaft was just flexing like crazy causing all kinds of problems
I made the same observation . And thought of the same solution .
At the previous shop I worked at they sometimes had to use a stack of 4x4 wood screwed together to weigh on the rolls to deal with the chattering. Sometimes a 1400-2000mm dia roll needs quite a bit of weight on it to stop singing 😅
I love your video s Josh! Thank you for sharing. I am not a machinist but could you use a steady rest on this?
Oooh, ooh, ooh I actually know what a "cherry" is! (And the rest of you get your minds out of the gutter.) Looking forward to that video, too.
Lol
How about a steady for the outboard discs? I guess the shaft may not run true enough.
I really enjoy your content. I try to learn as many tips as I can from all the videos I watch, yours included!
Nice use of Anglo Saxon English around 30:00! 😂
There is just no good way to use a steady rest on this.
👍