Mauser 98 vs. Enfield Pattern 14 Mechanical Comparison
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- Опубликовано: 29 авг 2018
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The Bloke takes a deep look into the mechanical differences between a German 7.92x57mm Mauser 98 action (specifically a Kar98k) and a British .303" Enfield Pattern 14 (P14) rifle. 
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I often wonder why Enfield didn't design the P14 to use the same Lee box magazine as the SMLE? I assume the patent would have expired by 1912 or whatever. Although patents may have lasted longer back then. Or was it something to do with the mechanism getting in the way? I also feel some naming consistency would have been apt, like calling it a Mauser-Enfield, as opposed to Lee-Enfield.
If there were any patent rights remaining, Enfield owned/licenced them. But the thing is that the P13 used a Mauser type mag for its .276 rimless cartridge, and the P14 was a minimal rework of that for .303.
love your videos keep doing what you do!
Morning Bloke. Lovely wooden guns vid. Ta. 🇬🇧
Thank you bloke
Very cool! The M1917 is one of those guns I have wanted since I first read about them in Hatcher's Notebook. Surprising how well the P'14 handles the rimmed cartridge.
It kinda doesn't... I've had a decent amount of rimlocks. They like to show up especially when you're trying to make a good follow up shot on a see saw target.
@@SPAZTICCYTOPLASM no Enfields but I have shot my share of Mosins. Let's just say I've seen worse. A bunch of nice lend-lease M1917 came in a while back. I still kick myself for not getting one.
the 1917/P14 is designed for Rimless, it was simply adapted to 303 and they did a really good job doing it.
7:14 I'm not a fan of that style. My hand bumps the bolt handle frequently and it seems to me there is a safety concern VS the 98 pattern solid lockup.
very interesting your stuff is awesome!
All these comparisons are all very well, but you know deep down that since 1841 all bolt actions are just modified Dreyse actions 😜
The Chap "Improvements upon" you meant to say...
Ironic, the M1 Garand is the Dreyse rifle of WWII.
The best bolt action rifle: Mauser clips and magazine, no4 sights. P14 action, Swedish caliber 6.5, Swiss machining and tolerances, French MAS length/weight, carcano pricetag, mosin production numbers.
So what I'm hearing is the best bolt action is an autoloader.
6.5 Swede is the GOAT
+3of11 And what for the stock, sling, and bayonet design?
I usually just flick the flag safety to the middle on my mausers if I need to unload them rapidly.
Livid I do also.
Hey Bloke, is that 170 grain 8mm Romanian Surplus you have for your 98k? It is currently what I use. I could have gotten some of that 196-198 grain Yugo Surplus recently for about the same price, but I already had spent so much on the Romanian.
That 170gn Romanian is absolute crap. I won't be buying any more of it.
Well since you did ask.. How do you know you can hang your thumb up on the P14? :P
This reminds me that I'd love to see a video comparing the sighting systems on military bolt actions of this era--SMLE vs. Mauser 98 vs. Pattern 14/M1917 vs. M1903. Perhaps comparing performance for low light, bright light, distance shooting, close range shooting, etc. I understand that an aperture sight was specified for the Pattern 14--it would be interesting to know how the British got there.
french rifles had a leg up in low light as they had peck blend sights.
That would be a serious amount of work., but very interesting. Tangent sights are good but they have trouble in low light that's why things like tritium and fiber exists. Shapes are a whole other issue.
The p14/17 with it's battle setting would probably be ideal if it was just a little bit bigger of a hole. Which is exactly what the British realized and did with the number 4. Of course what's more important than just distance and lighting is action, the stress of a timer and moving targets changes everything from shooting off a bench, i would love to do action shooting at dusk but it's not legal (bylaw) around the area i shoot, i would have to go to some crownland.
The P14, as well as the 1903 Springfield were based on the 1893 Mauser, not the 1898.
Great video, what was the accuracy standard of the P14 compared to the K98 and the front line enfield number I Mk III's and number IV's?
The official standard is, to my knowledge, no different than the SMLE (A No.3 is a P14 btw) and No.4 at 100 feet, but I don't know if they tested a sample at 600 yds like they did with the others. In general, the P14's shoot better than the SMLE's and comparable to No.4's, provided there's no stocking-up issues either way. All of these standards are way ahead of what K98's were subjected to.
@@BlokeontheRange Finger trouble.. I did know it was the Number I mk III. Should do I shoot one... the only P14 I shot was like a blunderbuss so it must have been shot out
Why is it never mentioned that the Remington Model 700 action is based on the P-14/M-1917 action?
Explain how? The REM 700 is a push feed, more akin to the Mosin, or really a 2 lug AR bolt.
If we're looking at it as loose inspiration then yes, but it really isn't beyond front locking lugs and cock-on-opening. River Styx pointed out the push feed, and the ejection is from a plunger ejector much like an AR rather than a fixed ejector like a Mauser or a Winchester 70 (a rifle far more directly Mauser-inspired than the 700)
I think you mean the Model 30, and the more modified Model 720.
The Remington 700 bolt is closest to the 1888 Commission Rifle, but with a plunger ejector. The confusion seems to come about because, IIRC, the receiver has the same footprint as a P14/M17 so make it compatible with the aftermarket stocks available at the time.
Bloke on the Range Remington had the machinery to make to make the P14/M17 and the 1903, I'm sure the 700 was a mix and match of Remington's existing manufacturing capabilities that was cheapened internally for commercial sales. Nothing made since WW2 seems to be as high quality as 100 years ago. *And my God if I remember right Remington had a contract to make Mosin Nagants during WW1 too, so maybe their post WW1 bolt rifles for civilian sale are Frankenguns.....
Did a military rifle competition today and there were 2 p14s out on the range and they both played up constantly. the rim jams on them were really hard to clear and they did it constantly.
Indeed, often a thing with P14's and modern ammo. That particular one just wouldn't rimjam though, even with S&B and deliberately setting it up to jam.
@@BlokeontheRange one of the p14s was far far worse than the other though. I had one waiting to find a bolt for it then gave up and sold it....... Then found a bloody bolt.
I have been using P14’s and SMLE’s for 60 years and never had a rim jam. My father was a WW11 soldier (sniper) and my neighbour a WW1 veteran both very good riflemen and they never mentioned a rim jam. My comment. Always use proper specification 303 ammo - with rounded/beveled rim. Only ammo that I have seen without the bevel is current S&B.
@@williampoynton7323 I own 13 rifles and 6 are No1mk3s. I mostly shoot ppu because it's cheap as and good brass for reloading and rimlock is uncommon but it does happen. Surplus is better but still can have rimlock. Had some FN stuff that was really bad for it. Mostly a issue from magazine geometry, Ammo and the overall design. It's not as bad as made out but it definitely is a problem particularly with modern Ammo.
@@williampoynton7323 but in saying all that I've never had rimlock with my 1920 dated Smle. Same Ammo different gun. My father in law and I share Ammo and his rimlocks much less than mine. I suspect it's more of a mag thing between the rifles but it could be the guns themselves.
I like "extremely geeky" comparison videos. More please!
I’m so jealous of your armoury
(The P14 isn't his lol)
About ten years ago i read an article on the mauser style flag safety, it said the three states were: Left; fire, bolt and trigger unlocked. Center; ? (can't remember off the top of my head), bolt unlocked and trigger locked. Right; Safe, bolt and trigger locked. It implied using the center position to load and unload the rifle while safeing the trigger, is this wrong or could it have applied to older pattern mauser rifles?
I have read the original German manuals. The centre position was only used for disassembling the bolt, not for loading or unloading.
@@BlokeontheRange An awkward safety 180 degrees like the bolt turn.
Never handled a P14 or M1917. I always assumed the bolt is retained by the sear like the SMLE and the Remington 700.
I need to find the Enfield m1917 just because 30-06 is a more accessible cartridge in the states. Already have a k98 and a no1 mk3 so gotta get something American next
The P-14/M1917 would have been a much better rifle if they'd reduced the barrel length down to 23-24", got the weight down and used the Lee-Enfield 10rd magazine. I don't know about the dog leg bolt. I've never used it, so I don't know if it helps or hinders running the bolt.
The dog leg helps.
not very pretty though.
Dog leg is GOAT deposits your hand right by the trigger. The lee enfield mag is great i won't deny that, but in combat conditions it tended to get banged up which would cause feeding issues, which is something a flush magazine did not have to deal with. As for length, well that took another war to figure out.
I should add, the p14 magazine kinda sucks, but it's not the magazine it's the 303 shit. I've had rim lock with it, even with chamfered ammunition and 'proper' clip loading.
I really want to find a beat-up 1917 to try this with. There are short versions out there from postwar, like the version sent as aid to the Chinese in the Second World War, however I'll likely never come across one.
The dogleg helps tremendously with actuating the bolt fast.
+Dangerious Amoeba the P14's mag was designed for rimless ammo, it's kinda a cludge how they made it take 303, the M1917 in 30-06 does not suffer from this problem and infact seems to run considerably better.
Well now i know but how about a comparison of p14 and lee enfield
Aside from being bolt-action rifles and having similar butt shapes there's precious little similar there, mechanically.
But how about the bolt of both rifles the bolt of the p14 is longer than the bolt of the smle right
The bolts are totally different other than being "bolts" and having handles and cocking pieces and firing pins.
O right then
I like how the P-14 took what was deemed the best features/characteristics of the G98 and 1903 Springfield designs and definitely has some positive design features over both those designs but in my heart of hearts I’m an SMLE fanboy and I’ll always chose it over other contemporary designs of the time period
But still an interesting and exciting rifle none the less
I'm wondering what's the difference between the p14 and the 1917 rifle besides the magazine capacity
Video coming up...
@@BlokeontheRange waiting for this video
P14 uses 303 brittish round and p17 uses 30 06
Was the Lee Enfield’s no 1 MK III bolt designed after the Mauser 98??? Anyone know?
It's essentially the same bolt as in the Lee-Metford from 1888.
How do you know?
The case head jumping the bolt face isn't a result of having a larger extractor.
Yes it is - the larger extractor (with less clearance) gives more scope for misalignment and the case not going where it's supposed to. The smaller extractor on the P14, with more clearance, doesn't give the case any leeway at all.
Biggest difference to me in the P14 is the more painful bolt takedown....
I've never taken a turnbolt apart in my life ;)
Very interesting Kar98k, its fitted with an Israeli stock and barrel bands, but isn't branded "7.62"!
Which do you prefer a p14 or smle
Prefer for what use?
Perhaps if it were asked in separate contexts? Such as range use (trying to get best accuracy), maybe general plinking for fun, and maybe which is more "durable" I suppose, as in which would survive combat better in your opinion?
@@BlokeontheRange just all around not specifically for any purpose
On average a P14 will outshoot an SMLE in the accuracy stakes. But an SMLE is way ahead as a combat rifle. Lighter, more pointable, easier to reload (see my P14 mad minute), easier to carry around, easier to clean, and 10 rounds. Worse sights, but looking at the whole package there's no contest, which was also the conclusion of the War Office and was why they continued development from the SMLE post-WW1 and stuck the non-sniper P14's in storage.
"Lighter"
That's true, but not by much. The no4 actually weighs more than the no1 mk3, 4.11kg on wikipedia vs p14 4.25.
"easier to carry around,"
Elaborate? 44 vs 46 inches oal, 2 inches barely matters.
"Easier to clean"
Elaborate? I don't see any differences in cleaning. Plus the Mauser style action doesn't need a firing pin tool to disassemble if you wanted to, just use the rim of a cartridge or a coin i use a coke tab because it's easier. The mag floor plate removes with a cartridge, just push in and back.
I will agree the the lee has better primary extraction, which is way better. We run failure drills with our guns, we'll use a dremel tool to put a weak point in our casing to make it burst to purposefully get hard extraction, and I've yet to ever have to mortar my lee enfield, and I've mortared every gun other than my M1 (which surprises me).
The p14 magazine sucks, but that's a fault of the 303 round in the 3006 p17, you probably have a magazine that gives the lee a run for it's money, primarily by not being easy to dent sheet metal.
I wouldn't say there's no contest. Especially with a p17, i'd say it's a toss between lee and p17, i wanna throw the arisaka in but it never served. You can't down play how important good sights where in the war, the only man with a rifle actually making hits was a sniper. The average soldier was just rotting in a trench or getting mowed down by machine guns. Good sights made a hell of a lot of diffrence for good old iron sights sniping.
Also in a bolt action, every shot is an independent event (parroting Karl here, cos i'm bad with words), so it kinda doesn't matter as much how much ammo you can hold, because you're cycling anyway, you practically get one chance. We use swinging targets for our matches and practice, and with a semi auto it really matters (up to a point) to have yknow 30 rounds (10 for me legally), cos you miss the target as it's waving back and forth you just chase it and and bang bang bang hit. With a bolt gun, you're bang action bang action, it basically doesn't matter how much ammo you have in the magazine. I've used a 20 rounder G98 trench mag and noticed barely any diffrence to my standard G98, a noticed diffrence actually is swinging around 20 rounds of 8mm under your gun vs 5, although between 5 and 10 it's not significant. Also the lee mags should have been made of better or thicker material, they absolutely do deform if you bang it up. I have one i can post a picture of the follower gets stuck at about 4 rounds because i accidentally hit the edge of a table while shooting crouched, thankfully I've got more magazines or i'd have to not be lazy.
Honor rifles indeed! #drinktea
DRINKIN' tea indeed! #blacktea
who are you? from where you go out
Why is an inverted V site called a "barleycorn"?
Best guess, Google image "barleycorn" and look at the shape of the grains. It kinda looks like it? Sorta? If we had to rename that sight today I'd either call it an 'A' sight or a 'candycorn' sight, but back then it was probably the easiest name.
A traditional method of stacking barley in the fields was to tie several bushels together at the top then let it splay out into a pyramid just like stacking rifles and in the past it was more common to use the term barleycorn to mean the whole plant not just the seed.
He lives in Switzerland
Bloke please be careful 10:58 that double feed can result in an out of battery detonation if the spritzer bullet hits the primer just right hard enough.
I saw that too he might have missed it.
I'd not worry to much, that steel 8MM mauser has super hard primers, the fireing pin at times has a hard time setting it off.
Plus modern cartridges and what have you are built for semi auto actions that can double feed way harder then this does, tip to primer detonation is a rare occurrence at best and unlikely at worst.
..and he is doing this at the range (he thanks them as he signs off) and - since he is using live ammo, I think we can guess the barrel is down range, not pointed at the range office.
... and - just for giggles - igniting a primer with a bullet tip is not easy. Here's some stuff so "not-safe" I wouldn't do it (but it's nice that there are people out there who will do it for me, so I don't have to.) ruclips.net/video/NeJmOxIklDc/видео.html
Vsauce but on guns.
Jayden Kang not really
Just the slight likeness.
I don't see it.
The best safety catch on a military bolt action is still the French safety.
As in no safety?
precisely
Flag safeties are a pain in the bum to flick on and off, and need you to take your right hand off the stock.
French rifles don't need a safety because they always surrender
Lucky chap,
Something about Britain being better than Germany
As is typical for this particular youtube..
*rows back home*
Britain didn't know about the first sniper rifles until Germany did it.
Dude, the p14 is actually based on a German Mauser rifle so it's not better
@@Reupload-Kanal-Von-Lukas-Heil is joke.
KAR 98 WIN!!
I'm getting this weird Nazi Rights Ad before the video?
wut? >:(
But RUclips censorship protects us?!? Ok, well maybe not from Russia or paying Nazis.
Cliff, Why you gotta lie?
And note he went live on that 98 5 times playing with
That gun. Bolt closed and safety off. That was weak
Wut? It's unacceptable to "go live" on a rifle which is pointing downrange at the backstop? Who knew? Particularly in a vid in which the rifle never "went live" since the bolt was never locked? Wierd...
@@BlokeontheRange I am rather intimately acquainted to the 98 Mauser system.
Go back and watch your own video. You closed the bolt on live ammo then lowered the handle into the locked position.. With the safety off. That rifle was ready to fire. All the time your in what appears to be a building where any one or anything could be in front of the Gun, and you where obviously not looking where you where pointing it.. The least that you could do is set it on the safe position while banging a loaded gun around on a table. Try to show your self as a professional if you intend to make videos. You represent all of us as a group when you do this . We have a bad enough reputation as it is.
I... Was... On... A... Freaking.... Range.... With... The... Rifle... Pointed... At... The... Backstop... End of story.
And you can't apply the safety until the bolt is closed and locked anyway. And no, the middle position isn't meant to be used like that. See: e.g. "Der Karabiner 98k und seine Handhabung", Verlag "Offene Worte", Berlin, 1936, or one of the issues of H.Dv. 240 Schießvorschrift für Gewehr (Karabiner), leichtes Maschinengewehr, Pistole usw.
I would mea culpa for closing the bolt fully exactly once at 11:02, except that I was operating the rifle according to the German manual and I... Was... On... A... Freaking.... Range.... With... The... Rifle... Pointed... At... The... Backstop...
You will note from this video (and a large number of others on the channel) that that location is in fact a 50m range, and any shot down the range is in a safe direction, as the countless bullet marks on the walls, floor and ceiling (not guilty) will attest to... ruclips.net/video/oYg7Lk4CRgA/видео.html
@@BlokeontheRange your not worth my time be stupid by your self.