AR-10 vs Bolt Action: BIG Difference In Velocity?
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- Опубликовано: 17 окт 2024
- In today's video, we will be comparing the velocity of an AR-10 to a bolt action to see if there is really that much of a difference. To do this, 3 separate loads were chronographed using a Magnetospeed V3 with 5 shot averages. Both rifles are using a 16” barrel, 1-10” twist with 6 grooves each. Both setups were fired at a range of 100 yards.
Testing: 2:13
*It should be noted that this test was done using only one barrel length (16”) and one caliber (308 win). It is very possible longer barrel lengths, different calibers, the same barrel manufacturer, etc. could have a larger effect on the velocity difference seen between the two platforms.
**These tests are meant for entertainment and educational purposes only.
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I think this debate could be summed up the way Paul Harrell says it: “The difference is within the standard deviation from one shot to the next with regular ammo, and not enough difference to make a difference.”
He is my absolute favorite to watch!
Mine too👍
Sounds like something Yogi Bearra would’ve said 😂😂(“ain’t over til it’s over”,type deal)
Until your precision shooting more than 300 yards with points counting on grouping or hits. Average commoner in most cases difference is negligible. What Paul failed to say is its negligible until actual precision and reloading are in play.
You be the judge.
As Paul Harrell would say “not enough difference to make a difference “
In better words; "Irrelevant differences."
"you be the judge"
All praise to Saint Harrell. There will never be another.
R.I.P. Paul Harrell
Thanks for honesty on the groups. I was beginning to think from all these RUclips videos that I am the only person that all my rifles are not Sub MOA.
The camera adds 20 lbs, and cuts group sizes in half.
Far too many variables that keep changing in the real-world conditions. That is why manufacturers use enclosed ranges and specialized equipment to test ammunition and rifles. As someone that shoots rimfire benchrest, I have scored 250 out of 250 with 11 out of a possible 25 centres. I have also scored 239 and only 1 or 2 centres. We shoot at an open range where it is not a matter of if the wind is blowing, it is which direction, how fast and how variable it is.
It all depends on how you measure MOA. Most companies and RUclipsrs just pull tricks to say it's sub moa when it's not. If you're shooting groups of less than 5 rounds you really can't draw conclusions on accuracy.
@jsaction33 MOA is measured in 2 ways: correctly, and incorrectly.
Sub-MOA isn't really important for most shooters, to be blunt.
WWII battle standard for a rifle was 3 MOA or less to pass.
Most firefights are gonna take place under 300-350 yards, and a 1.5-2MOA is totally fine for shooting a man at that range.
Also don't forget, for many shooters, their rifle is more accurate than they are, meaning it may be sub-MOA, but if you can't shoot sub-MOA because you lack trigger discipline, then it doesn't really matter, 'cause you're only as accurate as your skill level permits.
Also, if you don't know how to properly zero your irons or optic, the MOA of your rifle is the least of your worries, because even a
The difference in velocity between the two platforms was the smaller than the difference between one shot and the next on the same platform.
Definitely seemed to be that way for the most part
"Not enough difference to make a difference."
I can't read this comment without hearing Paul's voice.
Confusion has entered the chat
@@bananaballisticsDI shouldn't lose much, roller delayed blowback wont lose any but short stroke and long stroke piston might seem some level of difference
Difference in barrel friction? Tiny differences in inner diameter? Very interesting science, appreciate your videos.
that is what I was thinking
yeah, every rifle handles every load differently. But involving a separate rifle was not necessary really, as the opening/closing of the gas port would be the same thing in practice.
The AR groups are mostly useless to, as he is resting the rifle on the barrel :)
Probably different barrel brands
@@stevebarbour1215 I believe he mentions that the barrels are made by the _same_ manufacturer. He was aiming at achieving as close to the same conditions for the shots as possible, so that everything could be controlled was controlled, and the only variable would be the opening and closing of the gas block.
@@theeddorian, he said that the barrels were not made by the same manufacturer, but they had the same length, the same rate of twist, and the same number of grooves. The only answers that I have are: there isn't that much difference between the two as far as .308 Winchester is concerned or that with quicker burning powders the pressure build up occurs well before the gas block. I am not sure if barrel material makes a difference, or if the manner in which a barrel is rifled would make a difference. I am also curious as to whether or not any treatments might make a difference.
Peak pressure happens WAY before the bullets gets to the gas port. Peak pressure actually happens very close to the bullet hitting the rifling. The difference is how quickly the peak pressure drops. The pressure “loss” through that tiny gas port (tiny in relation to the bore) is insignificant. Same scenario with brakes, flash suppressors etc. Just not enough difference to make a difference.
Great video! It reinforces what I have learned over 60 years of shooting.
Thanks for all your work, I enjoy the numbers, humor, and your efforts.
Your style of presentation, my friend, is spot on. I can say that no matter what information I'm looking for: yours are the most enjoyable to watch, because of the subtle humor + straight to the point. Please don't change and start throwing in a million jump cuts, and weird transitions like everybody else loves doing, haha.
As always: amazing test and results. Thanks for this one!
100% agreed. Everything in 10 minutes and good humor.
I really appreciate the kind words and really appreciate the motivation! I hope to keep making better content
And that rich baritone... :D
@@terryfaugno9242 - He would do well in a church quartet as a bass singer.
Should have done ar15 vs bolt action ar15
My real world experience is the same.
My son in law has a Ruger Precision rifle and I have an AR-10.
Both are in 6.5 Creedmoor and we can't find any difference in performance.
Thanks for another great video.
How about accuracy?
My guess is not much……just a guess.
@@tonyromano6220 No apparent difference.
Both are sub MOA.
I was SO hoping you would close the gas block, AND YOU DID...YAY.
If you understand how the AR operates, you shouldn't expect much difference in velocity because you know the bullet has left the muzzle before the bolt unlocks. This is why dwell time is important. You are giving the gas system enough time to fill before the bullet exits and pressure is reduced to almost nothing instantaneously. So while there is a minute increase in volume of the AR compared to the bolt gun, which doesn't have a gas system to fill, it shouldn't be enough to affect velocity in any meaningful way.
The bullet is in front of the wave pressure, not waiting on it. You are correct. Action/reaction is in play here, not using spent gas to operate a bolt.
We have a winner... You sir are correct...
I love how you broke it down. Seen your plate pen comparisons before, but with the basic breakdowns here, it is what I was looking for.
Dude, those numbers are....bananas!
Great review. Just got my first AR-10 in 308 last year and I love it. Heard a lot of similar thoughts prior to your video so thanks for a realistic test to review.
This is really fascinating, and I'm glad to see hard numbers on what I kinda figured after shooting my .308 bolty-boi and AR-10 at long distances and using very similar hold points.
Man this is was pretty cool. I was literally just watching another video and thought to myself, i wonder what the difference in velocity between a bolt action and a semi-auto with the same barrel stats would be. Right as I finished watching that video i saw you had just uploaded this test. Interesting results for sure. Definitely not what I expected.
I really appreciate it! I have been wondering for a long time as well.
Another quality video! Well done.
The “3 good, 2 bad” groups are something I am used to in several different rifles. It is to do with barrel heating and barrel resonance. It is consistent however, once the barrel reaches a certain temperature, the point of impact remains consistent. Of course if it was the first two shots that were off point of aim, then I need to go and put my head in a bucket.
Neat test, weird results...
Fuzzy memory but I think with the timing of the gas system the bullet is gone from the barrel by the time the bolt gets unlocked and starts traveling backwards.
@@theender422 It is, indeed. Long gone.
Excellent demonstration, evaluation.
16" seems a bit short for 308. I wonder what the results would look like with 20" barrels and the gas block tuned for optimal operation? Great video!!!
Me building a 14.5 308...😅
On average I was pushing 168 hpbt at 2550 with 20” AR10. I believe at my highest charge I was a smidge over 2600.
It seems the powder is burning fast enough that when it reaches the gas block it's not even accelerating the bullet anymore, maybe with different ammo it would benefit more from having a bigger barrel.
I was wanting to try longer barrels, but did not have the same barrel length in the same caliber. I appreciate it!
@@bananaballistics Bummer. Of course you now have material for a future video. Worst case, you can test 16 18 20 and 24 in AR308 platforms.
You make great videos for the guys like me. This is info that is greatly appreciated.
FTR, I have shopped at Midway for years. They are one of the very best firearms related businesses. I HIGHLY recommend them.
I am opting for a .308 and was definitely curious on the differences between an AR platform vs a bolt action. Good info.
This is definitely interesting, as I've seen many comments on other videos about that argument of velocity loss using a semi auto vs a bolt action. I guess the powder being used is more so the deciding factor here.
In this test, it definitely seemed like powder was the deciding factor
I have a confession. I watch your videos primarily because your voice is incredibly soothing. Your presentation is just an added bonus.
OMG, me too :)
think you two have a man crush on him ; anything else you want to tell us ?
@@DLN-ix6vf nah. Just expressing my humanity. I have a wife and family that I adore more than anything.
so did Chris Jenner ! I may want to delete that comment if I were you :)
If he isn’t in radio, he should be. He could make money in radio, or doing voiceover work.
One of the best ballistics videos I have seen! I have been concerned about the effect of the gas porting to velocity. You answered that in 8 minutes. The actuating gas is relatively small. That the longer barrel was minimal in gain surprised me. The powder companies are really doing their part! I have a pet cartridge, 300BO with 85gr pellets. A TREX and a Penetrator. 2550fps?
Great video - I love how you fairly compare platforms. I'd like to see more common ammo used - most hunting rounds downrange are probably Federal, Hornady, Winchester, Remington, etc.
I'm not disagree with you just wanted to say the PPU ammo here in the Pacific NW is now every place to be bought and by chatting with shooters of PPU ammo they really like it and it is loaded with no hold bared for top pressure which show in the primers are flat from High pressure.
I am a reloaded since 1976 and now a very Highly advanced reloader in wildcat cartridges and builder of rifles in wildcat cartridges even AR 10s I do and sell in all WSM magnums ( 6.8 Western and 6.5 PRC )then standard cartridges and reloader cartridges or chamberings like the 6.5 x 50 Jap in the AR 10 is a perfect match better than the 6.5 Creedmoor, so PPU brass and Bullets I really like but the bullets are better for targets and varmints die to the PPU bullets blow up very easy.
For load development PPU bullets are so cheap working up loads make for not so painful in price for bullets.
Your videos, besides such excellent content are exceptionally well edited, which is a priceless talent to have.
Agreed
The difference is nominal enough to be negligible. Gonna assume is a bigger difference in rifling at play bein a more determinate factor of velocity than action.
My 6.5 Creedmoor AR10 is 1/2 moa accurate but runs 100 fps slower than my bolt gun with the same ammo. It's big and heavy but a hoot to shoot off the bench at long range steel.
Barrel volume is likely a factor, the gas lost to the port verses the volume of the barrel is going to be a substantial difference with 6.5 vs 308. My back of the envelope calc indicates a 37% more relative loss to the port with a 6.5 if it had the same pressures, similar bullet acceleration, and gas port adjustment. But there are even more variables than those, so 37% comes with a complimentary large grain of salt. (If the port removes the same teaspoon from each to activate the same mechanism, and the 308 barrel has 1.37× the volume of a 6.5.)
What a great video. I’ve always wondered if I made a good choice when I bought my AR-10 (SFAR Ruger .308) instead of bolt action. Now I know that AR was a good choice. Thanks for sharing your findings 👍
Man, great video. Really like how you present and your no-frills, straight for it style. Interesting video. I have my own thoughts on the topic.
I have a patent on a gas operated rim-fire. We experimented with 17HMR and had about 25 fps difference on average between semi and blocked gas port- definitely lost in the variation between individual rounds.
You might find my explanation on the second ammo interesting.
I love that you are so….. just like me. Closed off the gas block and forgot the bcg won’t cycle. Yep. I feel ya brother. Keep it up. Love your channel.
I really appreciate it! Gotta show some mess ups lol
Appreciate the video. Really good info. My only annoying critique is to not ride the bolt forward (charging handle). Supposed to drop it and let it pick up speed so it don't go too slow and cause a jam. I had a negligent discharge once because of that. Induced a failure, which caused a double feed which caused me to have an ND. If the bolt don't have enough speed, the extractor might not snap onto the rim of the round, so then you cycle the charging handle again it won't eject the round in the chamber, but will then feed another round (double feed).
I have a Crazy terminal ballistics question .. Brush gun bullet deflection , does a flat nose bullet shoot thru small twigs better than a spitzer .. I’m pretty sure a 5.56 will tumble but compared to a .308 or a .357 or 30/30.. Thanks 😊 Really enjoy your Show ..! Happy 4th ..!
That was a cool and very interesting test.
Thanks
Question: if the AR has an adjustable gas block- and it's closed- do we get the velocity back ?
Yes sir I've had this question for a long time
Barrel friction, and bore and chamber volume makes some difference. We assume they are the same, but they can vary a little.
Thanks for sharing!! Really enjoyed hope to see more with 20” barrels and different ammos/powders. Same barrel company would be super cool. I have a Wilson’s combat 223wylde 18” and a Daniels Defense 18” and with same ammo and same muzzle break the Wilson shoots 100fps faster. I contacted Daniel’s and even sent it back for barrel replacement and it came back doing same thing. DD said it was just how cold hammer forged are made. Also after 1k rounds through each the DD has port showed 10times more erosion.
Interesting comparison I never really thought about it. I do load for my AR's and my bolt actions differently but that is mainly for OAL and not velocity. I have found with handloading and playing around with different powders, cases, primers and bullets you can eventually find what that particular rifle prefers and it may not be ideal for another type rifle in the same caliber. I like to optimize each for my rifle with a particular load that give me the best performance for that rifle in terms of accuracy and adequate velocity to get the job done for that caliber. I just never thought about AR gas systems impacting velocity over a bolt action, I agree it would be interesting to see with longer barrels.
I agree with you completely. Many powders work good in one setup but not another. I was wanting to try longer barrels, but did not have the same length in each. May need to be revisited
Good voice for radio.
I am happy the powder burn rates were mentioned at the end. Comparisons are only valid when the correct powder and somewhat correct barrel length is used. Otherwise were are not moving on correct parts of the pressure curves. Here could be AR-10 and bolt action both with 18" barrel, and a mid-range burning rate powder, like Vihtavuori N140-N150.
Great consideration & test. Interesting results. Thank you
Statistically you would need to shoot 1000 rds each to really know the difference because of the standard deviation within each load. None of us want to believe that. We also buy $20 worth of lottery tickets thinking it will significantly improve our odds. Good video and agree with Paul Harrell reference it’s not a difference that makes a difference…
Thank you so much. I was trying to decide between AR platform and bolt action with recoil mitigation in mind, concerned the AR platform was giving-up accuracy and velocity. Now I know there isn't really any difference in the latter!
Thank you.
Great videos with surprising results seems to be the way things go around here!
Gotta take into consideration that the round in the AR10 has more time to heat up because it immediately chambers the round. So In between shots when ur waiting for the chronograph to stop shaking the round is heating up.
Great point
I think the issue is illustrated by the heavy bullet, and is connected to the short barrellength. If you are using all your powder/pressure in the barrel generating velcity, then sending some to the gas block can make a difference. where as a longer barrel would not. Conversely, if you have more powder/pressure than can be used in the short barrel, then a longer barrel would make it faster, but siphoning off pressure for the action would not make it slower. On the other issue where the ar was faster, I'm sure it has to do with the total pressure curve over the whole length of the barrel and how that changes the burn rate. But that would be a fascinating investigation to focus on. Those sorts of anomalies are where revolutionary discoveries that change our understanding of physics are made. Go for it! I'd love to see one or more videos figuring that out! I'm guessing others would too.
Excellent work. Thank you.
Most likely illustrating the difference in chamber tolerances and/or headspace more than the minimal effect (if any) that the tiny gas hole causes!
Maybe rifling is the main factor. Type, and twist rate. Type of finish as well.
Finally found a video that shows it the way it is and not doctoring it up to show there favorite rifle.
As you’ve already been reminded, looking at accuracy with the Magnetospeed on the barrel is kind of pointless. As is looking at accuracy when you’re resting it on the barrel when you shoot. Nothing should touch the barrel. One of the pros of the LabRadar.
There should be a small difference if your semi-auto is blowback, may depend on caliber as well (or rimfire)... Even then, near negligible velocity loss from a semi-auto (I have researched this before extensively). Rifling type, rate of twist, and throat affect it as well- again, practically negligible amounts if there is even a measureable difference.
Right on, good test, thanks.
I enjoy your presentations. This one is quite interesting. The results surprised me as they did you and most of your viewers.
My understanding with bolt vs gas was accuracy and not so much velocity. Great video, straight to the point and easy to follow for a simpleton like me. Thanks
I was surprised I expected the SLR to lose some out the action
Difference in rifling type can create different gas seals. Also the precision of the rifling cut will lead to difference in gas seal
Great video always wondered about a bolt action VS AR
I'm glad nothing has changed since the 1947 test.
I enjoy your video clips. A Video on the FPS on powder loads posted in the Hornady reloading manual versus the actual FPS. I often believe they are conservative loads and the actual FPS are lower.
This is great I have totally wondered this in the back of my mind for a very long time - Love that you did this! I have wondered the very same thing on semi-auto's vs Bolt action - Guess it's OK to hunt w/the semi-auto LOL
Great content. I appreciate your methods. 😊
That’s an interesting observation about the powders burn rate vs velocity differences. Maybe that could be a test in the future for more video subject matter.
There's more than just barrel length involved. That's two different barrels with different wear, maybe even slightly different bore size.
Your magneto speed has a sensitivity setting. You might be able to get bullets to read with the hand guard mount. I have the same issue and have to use a suppressor to mount my magneto speed to clear the hand guard.
Barrel tightness could be a factor, even if you used the same manufacturer machining tolerances are unavoidable.
Almost certainly the short 16" length is a factor. There isn't much time between the bullet passing the port and leaving the barrel. A 24" barrel matched with appropriate powder and a heavy bullet would probably maximize the difference.
so i am assuming youre using the same caliber for both guns right?
a 223 vs a 308 wouldnt be too fair you know
I've been wondering about the same thing for years. I would've bet my bottom dollar the bolt action would be the best all around !!! Amazing.
Great presentation and good video. Regarding the short barrel lengths for a 308, I agree with your statement that it's possible that the powder is not completely burned. This could be attributing to the higher than expected velocities in the semi auto. Using a 20 inch bbl in both guns might produce different results.
I agree
Some bores are tighter or looser than others, creating different friction dynamics effecting velocity.
I really enjoy your channel, I've watched a bunch of your videos but saw I wasn't subscribed so fixed that today.
Same barrels would be interesting, I'm perplexed.
This is mind bending test. Thank you
Nice guns. Great video. Thanks.
Great video. I appreciate it.
Great subject matter. Thank you.
Great channel. Great content.
Good video with interesting results for sure.
The original AR design positioned the gas block port based on the barrel pressure at that point delivered by the military round available at the time. The adjustability screw was there to compensate for a worn or residue fouled action. The British Bren gun also has an adjustable gas port accessed via a big knob on the barrel, because action fouling was a big issue in the 1940’s. Modern powders, especially the fast burning ones will deliver maximum pressure earlier in the barrel than medium burn ones. I hope this idea is helpful.
awesome comparison!
Great video! A couple variables for better visibility would be what are the lining of the barrels? What is the twist of the barrels?
Cool video 👍
I visited this about 5 years or so ago when I was thinking about getting a bolt action. I said to my self "self is it worth getting one over a well built semi auto with better follow up shot?" Everything I was reading everyone was saying the bolt action will out perform a semi auto easily. I didn't buy into that 100%. I started doing my own research and reading up on barrels for the AR. After a while I came to the conclusion the accuracy and velocity wasn't going to be that big of a difference if at all. Even told a friend I wouldn't be surprised if the military started using them more for sniper teams which they have. Why I don't have a bolt action. :)
I think the main benefits of a bolt action are reliability. Especially when shooting suppressed. Beyond that maybe weight.
you should still get a bolt actions because....
*GUNS* 🤣
@@DTreatz how do you argue with that? 😂
Opening her up all the way is not weird to say my friend. Lol😂😂😂
Great content as usual
The gases in the semi auto are reaching the gas block after the bullet has reached the muzzle, thus the velocity of the bullet is not affected regardless of the gas block being open or closed
Only other thing I can think that may be a readable factor is grove depth and actual barrel diameter. I would think if you slug the barrel you might be able to get the grove depth along with actual diameter. Neat test with suprising results.
Studying some old school sniper books. This discussion raises it's head along side the accuracy debate between bolt and semiauto rifles. After sifting through the various opinions, most seem to believe that ballistic performance is about the same, but accuracy is a bit better with the bolt rifles. But your mileage may vary. I shoot pretty bad with both. But I'm OK with blaming the weapon and not me.
Great Video. I wonder if the differences would be substanally more with a 223 round?
The question in my older mind becomes how tight is the chamber tolerance in each? I say this because that will have a bigger impact on velocity than anything else..
Another interesting video.
Interesting. I've always wondered about this. Nice job.
I tried watching this video, but had to mute it cause the bass in your voice cracked the foundation of my home 😂
I've heard Randy Travis subscribes to this channel!
It would seem a slower burning powder could be more likely to show a difference in the two action types. Such discussion leads me to consider the intermediate Cans on M1-Abrams Tank, Cannon barrels. That can is a bypass that helps evacuate residual gasses. Thanks BB
I'm guessing it reaches maximum pressure well before the gas block and is at a lower pressure by the time it gets there