Heroes in Crisis, Part 3 - Atop the Fourth Wall
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- Опубликовано: 7 окт 2024
- Part 3 of 3.
Welcome to Atop the Fourth Wall, where bad comics burn. In this episode, Linkara concludes Event Comics Month with the awful and heavily-requested Heroes in Crisis!
Check out more AT4W shirts at Shark Robot: sharkrobot.com...
atopthefourthwa...
Originally released July 28th, 2020.
ORIGINAL DESCRIPTION: Heroes in crap.
#at4w #HeroesInCrisis #DC
"That's why I care when DC and Marvel kill their characters. Because they don't." What a great line.
especially because sometimes they love characters fans hate and hate characters fans love
Wait, is he saying that DC and Marvel don't care when they kill their characters? Or is he saying that DC and Marvel don't kill their characters, because technically it's the fans' apathy that causes the deaths to actually stick?
@@meganmartin3373 DC and Marvel dont give two shits when they kill a hero off. Most of the time, they'll just come back cause theyre popular enough. But what about the less popular characters? Do they come back? Most of the time, no. Thats what hes saying
@@meganmartin3373 It threw me for a minute too... He's saying he cares because Dc and Marvel don't care (not that they don't kill them.) He's annoyed that the fates of characters are determined by who is in charge, and if not enough people care, they can be killed off-panel or go evil uncharacteristically, making them either forgotten or hated by others. They're just used.
Like everyone in this book.
@@yaloolah42 All too true.
"You may have created me. But you never my father. Fathers are kind, father's protect you, fathers raise you. I was protected by the monks of Azarath. I was raised by my friends. They are my family, this is my home, and you are not welcome here!!" -Raven, *Teen Titans: The End Part III*
In WHAT UNIVERSE DOES THAT MAKE ANYONE THINK "MY FATHER LOVES ME??!!"
Another reason I hate Teen Titans Go is how the Show portrays Trigon as a Goofy Sitcom father for Raven...
Trigon is an ABUSIVE Monster who RAPED a Woman to spread his evil. ...
NOT A LOVING FATHER!!!!!
@@eamonndeane587 Even TTG shows that he is just being a "good" dude to use Raven later on and had an episode that she is adopted by Starlight to have a better father (and she adopts Starlight in return) and the whole episode is calling him a shit parent
Bud Buddie Thank you
Eamonn Deane Now to be fair Teen Titans Go is for kids and they probably can’t get away with things that are dark like that, which kinda exemplifies why it was a horrible idea to make a comedy series featuring a heroine who’s basically the daughter of the fucking DEVIL!
@@eamonndeane587 Sounds similar to what they did to Sindel in Mortal Kombat 11, turning a traumatized woman forced to be a concubine to tyrant who murdered her husband that made her kill herself to be away from her abuser and later to be resurrected by that abuser and brainwashed, to suddenly a evil gold digger who killed her own husband, and made her and Shao Kahn (the tyrant who abused the old her) into a power couple.
Identity Crisis 🤝 Heroes in Crisis
- poorly handling complex issues
- everyone being an idiot
- murder mystery that's impossible to figure out
- character assassination
Difference is most of the deaths here were Superheroes.
-literal assassination
Having the word crisis
"Hal Jordan's turn to evil for a whole new generation."
Yeah... Yeah that perfectly sums this garbage up...
Thankfully Wally didn't have to wait as long for them to fix things.
At least his (Hals) turn to evil made freaking sense. Mongul NUKED his city! All (or most) of his friends and family were dead! I thought it was an extremely well done turn to evil. And even then, Hal didn't really turn EVIL. He just... became kind of Neutral. From what I remember, anyway.
And both stories were retconned to explain the heroes’ actions!
Scarlet Witch, in any sane and just world: "No more Watchmen tributes."
"sane and just"
Thing is, DC ain't doing it to pay 'tribute' to Watchmen, they are doing it to milk all the cash they can out of it.
I swear, these "tributes" are making me unintentionally hate Watchmen more and more.
I'd like an adaption of the Paul Greengrass/David Hayter script that was days from being filmed.
Or in a larger sense, "No more Crisis events."
Raven: "My father loves me"
Me: Uh, as someone who's only seen the Teen Titans cartoon, I call bulls**t
As if that whole speech she gave Trigon, where she disowned him before vaporizing his sorry ass into oblivion never happened.
@@DetectorCliche Indeed, in fact, this whole event comic is kinda insulting as someone with Asperger's. I'm glad Linkara reviewed it, because even if I was a comic reader, I'd be pretty ticked if I paid however much the trade costs to be told I'm a dangerous psychopathic murderer waiting to happen.
Exactly. My jaw drop when I saw that line and shouted "What the fuck!?"
Even outside of the cartoon that is horseshit.
Question. Did the "Raven" section of "Heroes In Crisis" ever clarify if she was referring to Trigon or someone else? Because I could totally buy the of Raven the way she is widely remembered applying the title of "father" to someone who actually ACTS like a father to her instead of the genocidal demon whose libido eclipses that of Zeus 10 nomnillion times over.
Linkara hated this comic so much that he pushed through all three parts of his review in one day
ADAMANTIUM RAGE!!!! FOR HEROES IN CRISIS!
He went five days into the future to send us all into the future where the videos have already been published! It's the ONLY logical explanation!
Linksano gave him Rage-powered editing software
HIS HATRED INCARCERATED BURN ALL IN THIS EVENT
Linkara getting all 3 parts of a video out in one day is completely unprecedented.
Linkara’s cat be like: father pls calm down, the bad comic is doing things to you
Kitty 🐱
Timestamp? I listen to these like podcasts so I don’t know what you’re referring to.
JageshemashFTW 4:45 is one.
ニャーーーーー！
Gotta love how, even when Linkara's ranting about bad comic stuff that baffles him, his hands are still calm enough to pet his cats.
25:23 “That’s why I care when DC and Marvel kill their characters...because they don’t.” Damn. I’m not even a comic book fan and even I felt the weight of that line.
It’s true no matter how you look at it.
It’s almost worse when you’re a fan, because it feels so much worse.
The idea of a “safe space” for superheroes is not a bad idea, but they should have talked with a profesional, a psychologist or a psychiatrist
I kinda liked how black canary served in that role in young justice. It was only one scene but it seemed like a goid idea. I wish the comic was completely that and was less "event" and more just a talkathon about dealing with this stuff.
You mean like what Black Canary was in season 1 of the Young Justice cartoon.
Exactly!
This is the DC universe. At best, they would have ended up with Hugo Strange inexplicably running the place.
@@drakkenmensch Good grief I don't know if the idea of hiring long-time Batman and JL antagonist Dr. Hugo Strange running Sanctuary would be just as bad or worse then the AI running Sanctuary.
Let's not forget that Bucky Barnes was dead so long that the joke used to be "No one stays dead in comics except for Gwen Stacy and Bucky Barnes."
And at least Gwen-Stacy gets stints as Spider-Woman/Spider-Gwen.
@@ScorpionViper1001 and it's a different Gwen Stacy whose personality is so different from the original that she may as well be an original character.
@@RealGateGuardian
eh, I give it a week before marvel brings Gwen or Ben back.
(Given how desperate they've been for attention these days, they'd likely be desperate enough to do that too.)
@@RealGateGuardian yeah but even back in the 20th century you had Gwen coming back in the form of a clone or something. Uncle Ben has come back in the last 10 years as a form of spiritual guide or whatever . JMS did it and so did Slott in the main line title.
@@RealGateGuardian the joke was the only people that stay dead was Uncle Ben, Bucky Barns, and Jason Todd
I like how Wally's "explanation" for how he recovered the Sanctuary data is so vague that even the _Wikipedia_ summary says "Wally somehow accessed Sanctuary's data", because THEY don't know how he did it either.
"Somehow Palpatine is still alive"
Only one viable answer: TOTAL ASS PULL
I said it's the only viable answer. I didn't say it was a very good one.
it's obviously because he was so fast he was able to catch the broken and scattered packets of data flung to the far corners of the earth. Because that's how data works, right? You break it up like a physical puzzle and then launch it in various directions?
Readers: "Noooo! You can't just catch deleted data! It doesn't have a physical form!"
King: Haha Speed Force go BRRR
I don't even get why they overcomplicated it so much. Why not just do something like, have hom go back in time and place a secret recording device? Or perhaps alter the existing device so before they were destoryed, extra copies would be secretly kept and sent somewhere?
In this Wally uses skills he doesn't have to collect data that shouldn't exist to obtain info he shouldn't have resulting in him freaking out and using powers he doesn't have and accidentally killing friends and colleagues.
And that's just the tip of the iceberg.
Just below the waves are the fact that despite what happened was an accident that he felt terrible about, he immediately frames two other people and then plans to commit suicide...it's close but, I think this comic may be worse than civil war 2.
@@Mysticgamer It's definitely worse than Civil War 2.
And as of 2022, they apparently retconned a lot of this out. Partly. Idk they at least said that the speed force was trying to expel someone out of it and that’s what killed everyone at least
Just getting started!
Yep. It’s a cluster f***.
‘Danny Chase is still dead’…that hit me like a ton of bricks. I’ve watched your ‘March of the Titans’ miniseries dozens of times, and knowing how much you love that little shit both in-spite and because of how he is, it’s…it’s just heartbreaking.
First two parts: “why is everyone in the comments talking about Wally west? Isn’t he just another statistic on the kill list?”
Third part. “...oh.”
Because he was the biggest name on the kill list. He was The Flash for an entire generation.
Also Character Assassination.
@@JaelinBezel The blow back was so bad they fixed him right away. What did they expect with this?
@@JustRobin2009 That everyone would forget Wally and forget he exists because he and Roy dared be characters that exist because sidekicks used to be a thing. In other words, Dan DiDio hated him and that was all that matters.
i think the cover of the video was a giveaway
@Will N Yep, in short it was an absolute mess and basically spits in the face of DC's coolest feature of having legacy characters that endure.
4:44 When a comic is so bad, your cat comes in to go, "You okay, human? Pet me. Feel better."
He has good kitties! 🐈🐈
The cat cameo makes it a bit better...
"Uh oh, daddy is having another one of his mental breakdowns! Commencing kitty therapy!"
Linkara and kis kitty are the highlight of the review. And together, they can *be* justice!
I love that he doesn’t break his rant while petting his cat
I fully agree with the "nobody cares if minor characters get killed off or just erased from existence," speech. It's important to remember that just like how every movie or comic is someone's favorite, every character is someone's favorite too.
Well said.
Y'know what would've made this story good? Turn Sanctuary into a legitimate therapy clinic, with proper staff, facilities, and proper treatment.
And then, the heroes' files are leaked... to each other.
But only pieces at a time, and only to a few people. Colleagues learn who has been complaining about them behind their backs, friends see each other's fetishes and darkest desires, rivals and enemies are given their foes' greatest weaknesses and secret fears. Some people come forward and report this, but nobody really knows who knows what, who is the real leak, or what they want.
Basically it's Tower of Babel, but on steroids. It solves so many problems.
1) You streamline the plot. The heroes need to find the leak and stop them, and repair the damage and paranoia between each other. There's also a great, clear mystery that you can build up towards solving.
2) You get to focus on the personal and wide-ranging issues of mental health amongst the superhero community.
3) You get to tell a lot of stories in the main series and tie-in issues. Teammates mistrusting each other stop being effective, there's paranoia of more leaks, villains could get a hold of the files, etc.
4) The ultimate villain will need less of a bullshit explanation as to how and why they committed the crime. And anyone can fit the bill, heroes, villains, a random staff member.
5) It's a real CRISIS. But instead of the usual universe-spanning threat that needs all the heroes to band together, the threat is insidious, internal, but no less universe-spanning. It is a problem the heroes cannot punch, their enemies are each other, and they need to redesign, dare I say REBOOT their systems and core values in order to move forward.
Well I just found my next fanfic project. Except maybe for Marvel
Who would be the villain in mind?
@@Gojiragon Because I'm a right bastard, it'd have to be one of the heroes.
It would be someone who has been traumatised and isolated, who has been through a ton of crap on a personal and professional level, and then was told to just suck it up and move on without properly addressing their issues. They'd have to also be smart enough to get past the security system, and know enough about the heroes to play them against each other.
And that person would be... Tim Drake.
While that's not a bad idea, you're basically telling a completely different story - so the only way to make a good story from this premise is to scrap what was originally written and redo from start.
@@cheezemonkeyeater i mean from how this event went, yeah I'd say that sounds like a good idea
Ah yes, Raven's "Dad loves me" is the equivalent to a Captain Hydra meme.
oh yeah I forget I wanted to scream about that line
HER DAD IS SATAN, TOM KING. HE ONLY SAW HER AS A TOY FOR HIS AMUSEMENT OR A TOOL AT BEST, HE DIDN'T GIVE TO SHITS ABOUT HER, HE MRUDERED A GIRL IN FRONT OF HER BECAUSE HER HORROR AT WHAT HE DID AMUSED HIM
and even if he DID love her, RAVEN DOESN'T CARE. SHE HATES HER DAD. SHE FORMED THE TEEN TITANS PURELY TO BEAT UP HER DAD.
FUCK. YOUUUUUU.
Sorry had to get that off my chest XP
Or the equivalent of Linkara saying that, that comic where Spiderman makes deal with the devil - the comic which name I'm repressing mind you - is the greatest thing that ever happened to spiderman.
Or Abby Arcane saying: "My uncle is such a great person!"
@@sarafontanini7051
It was a joke genius
21:03 The hate begins
And the cherry on the top to _Heroes in Crisis?_ The JLA *DON'T* give Wally any help and lock him up in Blackgate Prison!!
I said it once, and I'll say it again, Tom King has reigned as making one of the worst events of the decade.
Why bring classic characters back just to make them evil or do evil things? They never justify it, and the one time I have seen justification was with Hal Jordan as Parallax. When Coast City was destroyed, you could understand why he went insane and evil. It was still stupid, but you had reasonable justification. Then we get to Wally.
Wally has been through hell before. He lost his mentor in Crisis on Inf Earths, Linda was erased from existence by Abra Kadabra, Linda was killed by the Black Flash, He was betrayed by Hunter Zolomon and so much more. Never once during his freak-outs did this Speed Force explosion ever show in the slightest. Now this shows up so he can be a murderer!! You can say it's an accident, but when he covered it up, he became a MURDERER! GO TO HELL DC COMICS!!
I think it's because DC has decided that the Joker is right, and it does only take "one bad day."
@@mst3kharris But in that story, the Joker attempted that method on Jim Gordon. Did Jim Gordon's "one bad day" turned him evil or psychopathic? No. Jim defied that notion.
This is DC doing MISERY PORN. At this point, they'd probably made a Mark Miller WANTED universe.
Battlion 50 Since the Batman Who Laughs turned Gordon evil, I guess the saying should be, “All it takes is one bad day. And if that doesn’t work, one bad day and a heavy dose of Joker toxin from another multiverse.”
The problem is this wasn’t what King pitched. He just wanted to explore mental health treatment of superheroes. Dido and the editor then added loads of mandates. That’s probably why there’s so much dialogue, King doesn’t normally rely on such heavy dialogue
@@mst3kharris That point doesn't make much sense, if I'm being frank. As much as the Batman Who Laughs himself is a product of both "one bad day" (the Joker forcing Batman to watch as he razes Gotham, kills his villains and Gordon, and triggers his Crime Alley PTSD ad nauseum) and "a heavy dose of Joker toxin" (the gas he sniffed after killing the Joker himself), his titular miniseries reveals that under similar circumstances, the Batman of Prime Earth, despite having been infected with his own Joker's toxins and subjected to comparable traumas throughout his career, was able to pull himself back from the brink and remains the Dark Knight we know him as today. The Batman Who Laughs was not. After he was infected, he used his condition as an excuse to be the baddest Bat he could be, choosing to double down on his villainy even when freed from the constraints of being a Bruce Wayne addled with Joker's insanity. In a way, Laughs is just like the Joker in that *he chose this for himself* in spite of *numerous* opportunities to redeem himself. To quote Batman at the end of the Killing Joke: it was just him all the time.
You hit the nail on the head at the end. Killing off minor characters for shock value is cruel because their chances of coming back is a lot less likely than A/B-listers.
Yeah, it's kind of like why when I look back at the old Marvel Transformers comics where Simon Furman would use events to really amp up the death toll, it doesn't feel so bad now because it felt a lot less... tier-based. Usually a new character (read: toy) gets really hyped up and shown to be super powerful or competent, and yet in the story Dark Star the Seacons (introduced only 3 issues earlier) get casually wiped out alongside older characters (i.e. characters who no longer had product on the shelves). You had big names like Blaster or Jazz get blasted alongside less known characters like Searchlight or Wideload. Even characters who hadn't been used in a starring role in ages like Skywarp or Thundercracker.
And the thing is many of the characters killed in Dark Star _didn't_ come back for the rest of the Marvel Transformers run. But that didn't feel so bad because several A-listers were among the casualties who also never got revived.
DC under Didio was especially guilty of this - and as Linkara mentioned earlier, the Titans usually bear the worst of it.
@@Ackbar96 You'd think it be the Doom Patrol since... well they kind of already have a reputation for dying.
Barry: This is the return of hope.
Wally: Whose this made by?
Barry: Tom King.
Wally: Well we had a good run had to move the whole universe to get me. See you in another 20 or so years.
@jbiehlable Jay Garrick: This is why we can't have nice things, Barry.
Max Mercury: You moron!
@@SuperWolsey Reverse Flash/Professor Zoom: Now whose the villian Flash?
@@shinkaiatsuya950 Jay: Still, you....but that's beside the point
@@SuperWolsey Eobard: "This from the guy that gave up in Zero Hour. I don't wanna hear it, Jay!"
@@ZoanBlade90 Bart (to Eobard): "Do you want the Source Wall? Cus that's how you get the Source Wall! Ask Superpuss Prime!"
Superboy Prime: "HEY!"
Bart: "Oh, shut up."
DC's handling of trauma and mental illness has started to grate badly on me recently, especially with the introduction of the Batman Who Laughs and the Dark Multiverse. It's like DC agrees with the Joker, that all it takes is "one bad day." It seems to me that in their minds, if someone survives a traumatic event, then that someone is automatically deeply mentally ill, and I find that enormously problematic and disrespectful. That's not to say that trauma survivors don't develop mental health issues, of course. But not all trauma survivors do. Nor does everyone with mental health issues have those issues because of trauma.
This insistence on linking trauma and mental instability especially angers me when it comes to Batman. Bruce is a trauma survivor, but DC keeps writing Batman as a symptom of that trauma. For DC, Batman seems to be a symbol of Bruce being broken, not Bruce's strength and survival. It's like they won't let him be a hero because he was traumatized, and I can't begin to tell you how insulting that is.
What's worse is that Bruce Wayne became Batman because he was motivated to prevent the same thing from happening to anyone else, not because he's some tortured soul. In order to do what he does and be who a lot of people seem to have forgotten he's supposed to be, he must've undergone some kind of therapy. If he was solely operating on his trauma he would've destroyed himself years ago.
Boom. Couldn't have said it better myself.
It's like the whole "Bruce stops being Batman if he's happy" thing. This recurring idea that Bruce's traumas and mental health struggles are critical to being Batman, when the idea of a fully realized Batman is that he's OVERCOMING these problems by doing his very best to keep other people from suffering the trauma that created him. A young Bruce Wayne struggling with his role, with his trauma? Sure! Hell, one of my favorite Batman stories, Mask of the Phantasm, explores a younger Bruce coming into being Batman, and how he feels guilty over falling in love because he feels a responsibility to his parents, to dedicating his life to avenging them, and that being happy feels like a betrayal, like he's turning his back on his family's legacy. But it's a younger Bruce, and the point is more about how his civilian life and his life as Batman intertwine, especially when (SPOILERS if you havent watched) his lover then turns out in the present to be the Phantasm, having followed a similar but darker path to avenging a past trauma. But now? No. Bruce can never be happy, period. His life has to be a cavalcade of misery because its the only thing keeping him as Batman. No growth, no coping with trauma, no progression. Just misery porn
@@brianriff8550 Exactly!
@@shadowspider9 Whoa. That resonates with me somewhere fierce because I recently finished playing Persona 5 Royal. The endgame there really bring those kind of quotes to mind.
The random inclusion of characters like Kole and the Protector REALLY gives me the feeling that someone was just running down a list of Titans to dump on.
Namely Didio
@@OnDavidsBrain Yup!!
It would have been hilarious if the Tandy Kids showed up.
@@JasonRBeing "We've been Indoctrinated by a Computer Company "
This comic deserves the same comment I gave to the "The Gift" review
"Ahem"
WHHHAAAAATTT!!!!!!!!!!!
THE!!!!?!!!!!?!
HEEEEEEELLLLL!!!!!!?!!!!!!!?!
IIIIIISSSSSS!!!?!!!!!!!?!!!!!!
GOING!!!!!!!!
OOOOOOOONNNN?!?!?!?!!
😵😵😵
The 4th Wall Kid Yes.
(And your playlist of favorites episodes was great)
@@adonis7626 That's exactly what I was thinking by the time I got to part 3. Seriously I was like what the ever loving hell is DC doing!?
Pure unadulterated horsecrap. That is what is happening.
Whoof, Linkara's speech at the end on how sometimes dead heroes don't come back hit me hard.
Red Devil died in this event as well, after dying Pre-Flashpoint. Didio hated him so much, he had him killed twice.
Duela Dent died several years ago and hasn't come back either.
Those two are two of my personal favorite Titans, and I doubt I'll see them again.
Damn...
I was actually looking at old Titans books and really enjoyed what I read of Red Devil, I was actually wondering where he was in the current DC universe.
Now I'm sad learning he is dead.
Linkara's love of Danny Chase proves that every character has their fans. At the very least, they should be treated with respect by writers and not used as cannon fodder for events.
I don't typically read comics but I really wish they'd stop killing characters for little to no reason other than shock value. Because if those characters don't show up in a movie or to show or otherwise are known by the general public they probably aren't going to come back, and usually those characters still have tons of stories left in them that could be told.
Tam Lin Kent I think Duela Dent’s still around. Only problem is she’s almost nothing like Duela Dent.
@@DuelaDent52 I don't know how she is nowadays, but that was my problem with Cassandra Cain for years and years. Whenever I complained about what DC did to her (and I complained about it for years, she was my favorite character as a teen) people would say "but she's been back for years now", except it wasn't really the same characters. The older I got the more I realized many characters I enjoyed aren't anything like the versions of them I actually liked due to this limbo of never ending comics, sliding time scale with reboots and retcons, revolving door of writers and no one being allowed to tell a complete story unless it's a fucking elseworld or miniseries or something (and often those are still crap). It played a big part in me losing interest in superhero comicbooks over the years, though it's far from the only reason.
This comic was so bad Linkara deemed it unworthy of a Combine Harvester meltdown. Let that sink in.
Hell, he couldn't even let a physical copy of it in his house unlike holy terror, the worst comic he's ever read... it can't get worse than that.
This just shows how much Didio hates Wally. Now that Didio is gone I really hope Wally gets a series of his own
I just hope he get his emotions back
The mini-series Flash Foward, that comes afterwards wasn't too bad
Well he seems to have a large role in the on-going Dark Nights Death Metal.
@@B-lockdown It wasn't perfect though. Scott Lobdell worked on the book (I have massive issues with him as a writer and a person) and Brett Booth's artwork looks really unappealing in the book).
Still any redemption for Wally West is an improvement over the Trainwreck Heroes in Crisis is....
You guys are Too optimistic
Thanks to this event,he's probably going to be replaced,scream on or just killed
Any other YT personality: Dang it my cat was in this take, gonna have to redo it
Linkara: The cat stays.
You know you’ve leveled up as a RUclipsr when you can pet your cat and rant at the same time.
Wally wanted to know that he wasn't alone, but the Sanctuary AI told him it was impossible to meet with other patients.
You can tell Sanctuary didn't involve any medical professionals, because doctors know the value of group therapy.
Plus it had already been established that they COULD meet with other patients - that's why they had the masks and robes in case they wanted to be anonymous, but even then they said "You don't have to wear them if you don't want to."
Omfg, I forgot about the masks! So, the whole reason Wally "broke" doesn't even make sense within the event! WTF?
@@miraprime474 I thougth that Wally believed that the other heroes were just pretending for his sake, because he was the only one and the main reason behind Sanctuary's existence.
So, which is more hair-pullingly OOC: Raven saying "My father loves me", Cassandra Cain saying "My father loves me", Carol Danvers saying "Marcus loves me", or Gwen Stacy saying "Norman Osborne loves me"?
Also, is anyone else noticing a pattern here?
Imma go with Gwen because they barely interacted before a badly done event.
Raven and Carol are at least dealing with entities so NOT human that maybe they do think of love in a totally different sense than we do, and David Cain is one of the worst abusive parents in comics, but did so out of a twisted sense of pride and wanted a legacy. Cain's "love" is toxic but he is emotionally invested in Cassandra.
I'm gonna go with Gwen because she was friends with Harry for years. Apparently she saw him come to school everyday with a black eye and thought "How manly, nothing more rugged than a guy who can beat the crap out of his own son".
Marcus, no hesitation
To be fair, the Gwen stuff got retconned.
Raven two of those were under mind control and the Gwen thing never actually happened both in dialogue and literally those were false memories
Spider-man: wow, dc hates some of the titans more than marvel hates me! At least i'm allowed to exist! Although on some days.....
I feel like Spider-Man would sometimes be happier not existing
Tyler Foster
I’ve thought the same.
The REAL peter parker stop existing with one more day, after that comic peter was replaced with a man child that refuses to grow up or remember all the lessons he learned in the past, why?
Marvel editorial: MUH NOSTALGIA!!!! peter must never grow up!! he must forever live with his dinosaur aunt!!! he must always sell photos for cheap change despite being above his 20's and being a massive hyper genius!! he cant get married or have children!!!!
Renew your vows proves this mentality wrong but marvel has decided that peter must be a product instead of a character.
@@slifer875 Nick Spencer has been doing a lot of fixing of Spider-Man after Dan Slott and Marvel Editorial tried their damnest to ruin him
@@ninjaworshipper don't be so hard with Slott, he tried to reinstate the marriage many times but editorial was adamant (IMVHO because this mean also admitting that they were wrong in the first time) in his no and the Parker Industries were a good idea, had show new angle of Peter...but boys remember characters can't change or at least can't change too much
Lewis?
Someone has to say it:
this one touched my heart.
What you had to say was heard. Thank you.
Thank you for caring.
Thank you for being indignant.
Thank you for speaking up.
This story hurt way worse than I could have ever guessed.
But your review here? Sorry if it's corny or dumb, but it is therapeutic.
Thank you for being a good man, and a human being.
You're awesome, man, and I want you to know that we appreciate you.
Thank you for this.
Thank you for always trying to be more.
Thats really nice of you to say all that, but you should really spell his name right. Its Lewis. The way you spelled it is typically pronounced "Lew-ee"
@@PrincessAshley972 My bad, thank you!
@@tonystark106422 No problem, glad to help
The way that Tom King speaks of the Speed Force, makes it sound like Gamma Energy.
You are writing Heroes in Crisis, Tom. Not Immortal Hulk.
That does Make me wonder how Tom King could make Bruce Banner even more sad and Miserable...
The Hulk crushing Betty Ross to death after trying to Kiss her perhaps?
Don’t give him ideas
@@eamonndeane587 I mean, when you think about it, most of King's works seem to be about a sad and traumatized man, finding support and hope on his wife or love partner.
So him telling a story about Hulk and Betty seems kind of fitting to him. I wouldn't be against it.
As long as he doesn't have the Hulk murdering the Avengers, of course.
@@eamonndeane587 She's a gamma mutate too though, so she would be fine.
@@BullseyeRey I thought lousy "too smart for everyone's good" hulk "cured" her and everyone but Jen.
“When you break, you do it out of character. You don’t break in character.”
...
I wanna talk about Steven Universe.
Specifically, his breakdown in the penultimate episode of Future.
Throughout the series, Steven has had issues. And even from the beginning of the series, these issues were present. It’s just that he never had enough time to register them. Now you can say, “well, Steven seemed fine as a kid,” and you’d be right. But the traumas still occurred. He was able to better deal with them because he had a support system in his family, but they still left cracks. And as the series went on and he dealt with more problems, the cracks got bigger. Enemy after enemy, monster after monster, disaster after disaster, they just grew. And his ability to deal with them diminished. Keep in mind, Steven has briefly cracked in the show, and those traumas did manifest briefly (him yelling at his mother, the hallucinations during the training session as Stevonnie, even when he fought Bismuth and failed to save the corrupted Jasper). And it eventually all came to a head when he learned who his mother was, and was nearly killed by White Diamond (made even worse by the fact that that wasn’t the first time he almost died). But he tried to stay strong, especially because there were more problems to be solved.
And then we get to Future.
The fighting is over. The universe is safe. And Steven can finally relax... And the trauma catches up to him. There are no more distractions, no more threats, no more problems demanding his attention. It’s just him... And his trauma.
Bit by bit, it builds up over Future’s run, manifesting both emotionally and physically (due to his powers), gradually just getting worse and worse and WORSE... Till, finally... He breaks.
And it was in character.
We saw his traumas and how they were affecting him, both in the original series, and Future. So when he broke down, it made complete sense and was not out of character.
And before anyone says “Well he turned into a monster and tried to hurt people”, keep in mind that the monster wasn’t the breakdown, it was the side effect of the breakdown, as his powers transformed his mental state into his physical state. Plus, as we’ve seen in the show, when a Gem becomes corrupted and becomes a monster, they’re not themselves anymore. It’s possible for them to regain some semblance of who they were (as we saw with Centipeedle/Nephrite), but not a complete return to form, at least not till the corruption is healed.
But even then, once everyone helped him return to normal, he didn’t immediately lose his shit and try to cover it up. He was worried about his actions and was afraid he hurt someone. The breakdown was registered and he had a realistic reaction.
And, I’m not bringing this up to spark debates about the quality of SU/SUF. You’re free to have your own opinions there.
I’m bringing it up because a F***ING CHILDREN’S CARTOON ABOUT A TEAM OF LESBIAN SPACE ROCKS WHO SAVE THE EARTH WITH THE HALF-HUMAN SON OF THEIR FORMER LEADER HANDLED THIS SCENARIO SO MUCH BETTER THAN THIS STUPID COMIC!!!
“You don’t break in character”? BS. Even if we believed that Wally’s breakdown SOMEHOW got the Speed Force to kill everyone at Sanctuary, if this was written competently, Wally wouldn’t have tried to cover it up. If you ask me, he would have looked around at all the dead bodies, registered what had happened, and probably would have broken down crying. He wouldn’t try to shift the blame, Hell, he’d probably take responsibility, and considering the circumstances, the heroes would probably understand and try to help him. Not just with his trauma, but probably with the guilt of his actions.
And maybe this wouldn’t have happened right away. Maybe Wally would run away and hide as he tries to cope with everything. But eventually, he would turn himself in.
Because, despite everything, he’s a good person. And no breakdown, no matter how severe, would change that.
But that’s not what happened. We instead got this garbage pile of a comic. And it’s existence only proves one thing to me;
The writers probably didn’t understand trauma, and possibly didn’t care enough to do research.
That doesn’t mean they’re bad people, and honestly, Tom King did not deserve death threats over this crap, but it does show that if they didn’t understand the subject matter, then maybe they shouldn’t have wrote about it.
May this comic burn to ashes.
EDIT: That was a powerful ending that perfectly captures the problems with character deaths.
Having watched all of She-ra lately, I can safely say that also tackles trauma realistically, being a driving factor in the choices that Adora and Catra make throughout the series, eventually unpacking those feelings, and making the effort to change themselves once they both understood how much they meant to each other and wanted to remain in each other’s lives.
Really illustrates that both of them are products of their environment and had to undo years of conditioning by the horde. Good stuff.
@@trevingrayek1671 While I've heard similar things (for example, how Shadow Weaver basically lifted Adora and kept Catra down as one of her abusive methods of control), I can't bring myself to actually watch that series because of the creator and things surrounding the outside of the series. It's kind of like how I never want to touch anything by Mark Waid or Frank Miller because I have such strong negative feelings for the creators it would inevitably cloud my ability to actually read/watch whatever they made.
But if we're sharing series and shows dealing with trauma, the series Zeta Gundam gets into some aspects of trauma with Amuro Ray, the protagonist of the original Gundam. Zeta Gundam takes place about 7 years after the original series, and Amuro is basically under house arrest because the Federation is worried he's kind of dangerous as a symbol. But when the heroes try to recruit him because he's a legendary pilot, he turns them down because he's so tired of fighting and it's cost him so much (e.g. friends died during the war, his mother was a pacifist horrified he was a soldier and okay with killing people, he killed who was essentially his psychic soulmate) that he just didn't want to get involved.
When the heroes return to space because that's where the final battles will be fought, Amuro declines to go with them because he's genuinely scared he'll run into ghosts, especially of people he's killed. It's not as crazy as it sounds, since Amuro is sort of psychic.
Trevin Grayek Admittedly I watch the show so I don’t think it’s a perfect analogy. I mean Catra, while dealing with issues, is a pretty horrible person and in season 3 tried to *destroy the universe* just to *spite* Adora. There’s a fine line between suffering a meltdown and just being a really shitty person and Catra might fall under the latter with how consistently awful.
Samuel Johnson
Well said.
You had me @ SU/SUF but srsly tho totally agree. It seems like children cartoons can do mature subjects a lot better than some adult cartoons/ comics.
Flash forward is DC saying "We're sorry, we're sorry, we're sorry, we're sorry, we're sorry, we're sorry"
@Daelen Clark At this point, Batman Who Laughs screwed Doctor Mannhattan's powers and idea more than Wally did. But, yeah... I genuinely liked Flash Forward with all its flaws, but you're right, its ending just proves that DC cannot stop screwing around with Moore's work. Less than Doomsday Clock and HiC, granted, but it is enough for realisation of the fact.
I know suggesting how they COULD have handled this story is pointless, but bear with me.
Imagine Sanctuary was made by scanning the profiles of almost all the League members. That it didn't just hold Batman's will, Wonder Woman's compassion, and Superman's honor, but also Batman's fears and angers, Wonder Woman's doubts and worries, and Superman's temptation to abuse power and human estrangement. All the neuroses of almost all the League members.
Then Sanctuary is put in charge of these other heroes and is forced to look into a mirror. These sessions aren't about helping them, but Sanctuary trying to consolidate it's identity and the literal living fragments that it exists among.
That's where the masks come into play. It uses that anonymity to distance itself from them, and perhaps distance itself from what it's going to DO to them. Those little experiments which escalates until it becomes murder. It's the growing sociopathy of a machine built from the collective conciousness of dozens of fragile people, hiding behind positions of power
This is how Harley Quinn fits. Because she's not a League member, and she wouldn't be for another 2 years or so. For Sanctuary, she would seem to be the ONLY other real person in the world. And she's, ironically, a therapist.
So while the League are forced to confront their flaws, Harley and Sanctuary are analyzing each other and discovering the sources of their own traumas.
Just a thought. Enjoyed the review.
That idea is fascinating. Far better than what we got.
No, they can't do that. It would be complex and interesting with far too few explosions.
Seriously this is a good story idea that has everyone involved connected to one another in a meaningful way. My story rewrite is almost exactly what I was thinking through this too. But that connection to Harly as a therapist also got me thinking. “What happens when the therapist needs therapy”? What if the Sanctuary needed to find its own sanctuary. Maybe Harley could’ve related to that idea? Maybe this could have helped tell Harley’s story on the road to joining the Justice League. Not only solving the mystery and proving her innocence to the JL, but to herself and reminding her of her old profession. Only now with a bit more Patch Adams as well as Carl Jung given...ya know...everything.
@@mst3kharris Nah, the explosions could happen in the experiments. :)
CodeNameX001 why couldn’t you have written heroes in crisis?
Why do we care if the characters we like are killed off, turned evil, or written out of character? Because while fan entitlement is certainly a thing, sometimes you have to be very clear to a company that they've made a mistake and their profits are going to be hurting until they correct it. I'm pretty sure the fan outrage is the main reason why Disney/Marvel never followed through on completely killing off all the X-Men, even before they got the movie rights back from FOX. Whatever money they would be losing out on because of the movies, the fans made clear they were going to be losing out on even more if they went ahead and murdered all these characters they love so much over something so petty. And bitterness over One More Day even to this day might be the only reason there's a chance of that storyline getting undone.
So yeah, don't send death threats to anyone, but definitely feel free to keep complaining and making yourself heard.
Agreed. Just make sure you're able to articulately explain _why_ you think it's a mistake instead of letting your emotions take over.
I've never forgiven Marvel for Marvel VS Capcom Infinite for that reason. I expect the roster to change per new iteration of the game, but removing the X-Men characters completely (including Wolverine, who'd been a part of the series from the first Capcom-made Marvel fighting game) and instead filling the Marvel roster with MCU/ MCU-related characters killed any hype I had for that game.
It just felt so pointlessly petty.
Fan entitlement is definitely an issue. Popular works would probably be better if creators pandered to audience desires less. And 'ruining' a work of fiction should never be the subject of death threats, even if it actually is ruined.
BUT. Something bugs me about how it gets responded to most of the time. Often people look down on fan backlash with an attitude of 'why do you care so much? get a life'. That overlooks the fundamental fact that if you don't care about a story, that story has failed. Of course people get emotionally invested in fictional characters, if they didn't they'd stop being audience members for it. Sure, some people might be in it for other aspects, but the stuff people really latch onto typically has that in common.
Agreed. I'll never agree with fans sending writers death threats or any mob mentality (that is 100% Dan entitlement), but ruining or killing a character for shock value or a poor story we need to let writers know when they misrepresented characters.
@@ForrestFox626 Curse that entitled Dan and his terrible behavior ;)
That ending monologue about death of characters.... man, that is depressing and kinda unsettling.
It is but it has to be said. After all, people will question Linkara being this emotional when comic book characters get revived eventually but as he said here and in Cry for Justice, not everyone gets that treatment and their deaths are for shock value or something like that.
wait....I just realised....did they undo Lian Harper's death (and subsequent retgone in the New 52) or is she STILL fucking dead!?
@@sarafontanini7051 She kinda came back in a 2-issue series called Convergence:Titans in 2015. I don't know if it even counts as canon.
She also sorta exists as Lian Nguyen-Harper in Young Justice, but the last time she appeared she was basically written out of the story and is only "technically" not dead.
@@nnekabyron529
Killing a little girl... THAT. IS. LOW!
You know Linkara HATES a comic if all 3 parts come out the same day xD
Atrocitus is amazed how focused he can be when angy
Did all parts of the Holy Terror review come out on the same day? I don't remember.
actually he had to get it all out today. tomorrow is his multi-day livestream event
I'm glad you brought up "The Killing Joke". I fear that too many people think that The Joker was supposed to be right and all it takes is "one bad day" and you "break" (because that's how mental health works right?!)
I also fear that some of these people are writers/editors at DC (and Marvel...and Hollywood...)
Made worse when you consider that’s exactly what happened in the Joker movie...
Part of me really, really wants to see a follow-up to _The Killing Joke_ where _Barbara_ is the one who snaps from her experiences and takes out the Joker, who doesn't see it coming because whoops, it didn't occur to him that the woman he was traumatizing would have her own reaction to what happened to her. I mean, I don't want to see that because I hate the whole "one bad day" trope like poison, but it amuses me to think of the Joker accidentally creating his own downfall.
@@mst3kharris what "amuses" me about the Killing Joke is, that the "one Bad Day" wasn't even the case for the Joker, IF we accept the flashbacks as his backstory (Multiple Choice and all that...).
The Flashbacks we've seen showed that he was struggling already (probably can also be considered true if we go with one of the variants where he's a crook). A Huge Responsibility, with his wife being pregnant, money's tight, he quit a well paying job to fail as comedian, all that nags on him. Then he also gets hired by the Gangsters. And then "One Bad Day"... And the "One Bad Day" was the straw that broke the camels back. Or Jokers mind.
So even the Joker wasn't created by just "one Bad Day", but since he doesn't remember his past, it might appear to him that way.
Jim at this point had an overall better live and Barbara wasn't killed, so one could argue that due to this, and how high he held the law he served, he was less troubled and better "anchored" than Joker. Jim most likely also had a much stronger character than pre-Ace Chemicals fall Joker. Unlike Joker, Jim also wasn't disfigured for his whole live... Even with all the stuff happening, one could argue that Jim didn't loose as much as the Joker, especially since he knew that it was part of Joker's plan for it to happen.
For Joker, again, if we assume the flashbacks are true, all that stuff happens without anyone having planned for it. It wasn't some diabolical mastermind with the plan to break Joker, like it was with Joker and Gordon... it just happened, for no reason.
And considering how often it's brought up that Bruce himself might not be as sane as he would like, he might've had THAT Bad Day. Something Joker also brings up in the killing Joke Monologue... "Girlfriend caught by the mob, maybe? Brother carved up by some mugger?"... Crime Alley.
Maybe it's just me, but I can find quite a few interpretations in the whole thing.
mst3kharris Is it wrong I’d want to see that? Of course, she might not kill him in the end because of “ethics/the status quo” or whatever. Bleh.
@@undertakernumberone1 I've never found _The Killing Joke_ particularly interesting, I'm afraid. I don't care where the Joker came from, and I don't like Batman being read as if he's as disturbed as the Joker is. The only thing I liked about it was that it eventually gave us Oracle, basically making Barbara Gordon an Obi-Wan Kenobi. ("If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful" etc.) But DC took that away from her too, so now I have no real use for it.
"That's why I care when DC and Marvel kill their characters...because they don't" This hit me like a slow burn. In so many forums you'll see discussions of the impermanence of death in comic books. Hell, after a recent rewatch of Batman: Mask of The Phantasm I went searching for any articles or posts about the apparent death of The Joker in that movie. Mark Hamill (awesome guy that he is) answered such a question at a convention once (probably more times I'm sure) and he basically said something along the same lines : Oh comic fans know he'll be back eventually, because they always come back. And it wasn't until this review that a response that could truly throw a wrench in that mode of thinking existed for me: Only if enough people even care.
Well Joker didn't die and come back. He survived the climax of the movie as he does many near death experiences he goes through. It's part of his character.
@@DetectorCliche I get that, but it's never addressed like ever. Like it would 've been good to either see HOW the Joker escaped that explosion or maybe a scene where we see the Phantasm had say...dumped him in front of a police station like Batman would do sometimes. There's ever indication that he didn't survive that scene the way it's presented in the movie.
@@Cam1188 plus from what I understand that movie was originally penned to be the finale of Batman: The Animated Series. Had they not gotten another season than that would’ve been the end of the Joker in that continuity
"You don't break in character."
Man, they should read Berserk. Guts breaks in character so many times.
And hell, what does that even mean, "you don't break in character"? I don't randomly decide to kill 50 puppies because my neighbours are being too loud. It gotta make sense in what kind of way you break.
Yes, to the one who breaks it might look absolutely unrelated, but a psychologist can find a throughline. And if you want to write about characters breaking like that, you better have enough knowledge in that field to make it work. So that it makes sense to the reader.
and that is why I bloody love that manga. and should be handled better in other media, I say in my personal opinion that the best anime that berserk got was the original anime back in 97' I believe. I also believe that The best video game was a Japanese only release berserk millennium war arc, that looks like how guts would actually feel and play like. By some force, I hope that Guts gets a somewhat happy ending at the end of the manga, because he has went through so much shit that he deserved one.
I could not agree more. I believe that this asinine line of thinking comes from the misconception that since art reflects real life, the randomness of it should also be reflected in some way. When Gwen Stacy bangs Norman Osborn, when Cassandra Cain turns into an Azula clone, when pull a TLJ Jack Skywalker, thats their rationale. Its the most brain dead and honestly offensive thing possible.
Stories can reflect real life, but they can never BE it. They have a clear beginning middle and end. Characters, much like real people have defined traits that they consistently abide by for the sake of making things cohesive. How are we supposed to give a shit about whatever mental state they are in when its all random and the rules dont matter? All for the sake of some pseudo intellectual bs about mental health and the flaws of man or whatever. Its pretentious and lazy. Especially since you can clearly do so much better.
I don't know man, my neighbors broke me by shooting fireworks from the middle of June until July 9th at all hours of the day, and I suddenly found myself liking Hero Factory. Very out of character for me.
WALLLY has broken in-character. SEVERAL TIMES. The part that frustrates me the most about his treatment in this comic is that WALLY HAS STRUGGLED WITH MENTAL HEALTH ISSUES SINCE 1986! But the comic makes NO EFFORT to make his actions and struggles in this story line up with that 30+ year history!
Another good example is the combine harvester running gag. He's breaking, but it's entirely within his character
Its a minor detail in all...this but the aqua accents on batgirls outfit are ugly as hell
It isn't minor when it throws off everything about the color scheme, theme, and it doesn't go with the rest of it
I think it's supposed to be a call back to her original costumes cowl, but it's somehow worse than that design
@@fluidthought42 Spot on, it's too much face if the blue was more in the costume it'd probably look better
Frankly this new BG outfit is one of the worst I’ve ever seen. Definitely deserves more scorn than the Burnside outfit that got a lot of hate, which I really liked same as Lewis.
We went from one of the best batgirl outfits, to a shape bodysuit and weird ears
It’s weird the the ONE TIME Batman cares about privacy, it backfires on him
I hate that I’ve gotten so pessimistic about comic book Batman that I assumed he wasn’t concerned about protecting the privacy of his friends and colleagues so much as he was worried that his identity would be revealed if Sanctuary kept records.
I actually have family who studied psychology and is a social worker, I told her about this book and yeah THIS IS CRAP!
More people need to know what’s accurate, and what’s crap.
Apologies. This will be a long comment.
Note: I am not a mental health professional, but I have dealt with mental health issues in myself, my family, and my students.
The worst thing about Heroes in Crisis is that it’s actually a fantastic idea done horribly badly.
Superheroes are a wonderful analogy for a lot of aspects of dealing with mental health. I know several people who have had to put on a public facade to make it look like they’re coping better than they are refer to this act as “Clark Kenting.” I’ve seen kids who’ve dealt with loss or food and shelter security and developed paranoia fueled tendencies to over plan for unlikely emergencies shrug this behavior off by saying, “Oh, I’m basically Batman.” And I’ve seen A LOT of abuse victims say EXACTLY what Raven said in that confessional (which, as incorrect as it is, is NEVER the victim’s fault for saying it).
This is such a missed opportunity, that I’ve had this idea for a better Sanctuary series in my head since this review was posted and I have to get it out.
Keep the premise of Sanctuary. A place where superheroes can go to seek help where their identities are protected. Keep all the superhero tech, holodecks, pocket dimensions, etc.
But make the main characters a team of mental health professionals, mostly new characters, who treat the heroes and occasional mid-reformation villains that come through their doors. For example:
1. A young but brilliant therapist who’s completely new to the hero world. So good that they’re recommended to Batman personally by Dr. Tompkins. Audience point of view character.
2. An Amazon healer. Skilled with ancient and mystic medicines and healing techniques, but a fish out of water in Man’s World. Wise old woman in a young woman’s body.
3. An alien Green Lantern who’s one of the corps experts on PTSD and battlefield trauma. Outside observer of humanity ala Star Trek. Chance for a really cool character design.
4. Dr. Harley Quinn! She’s being portrayed as more of an anti-hero lately, let her put that PhD of hers to work. Joins the team because she’s sick and tired of her “dumb blond hench wench” reputation. Besides, she still has student loans to pay.
5. “Doc.” An older man who chooses to not reveal his secret identity but seems to be a real jack of all trades. Father figure to both the group and the patients. Eventually revealed to be Alfred Pennyworth. (Yes, I know he’s dead. He’s been here the whole time.)
Last but not least, HIRE A BUNCH OF REAL THERAPISTS AND OTHER EXPERTS TO CONSULT ON THE BOOK SO YOU ACTUALLY GET THIS STUFF RIGHT!!!!!
That sounds so much more interesting than what we got...
It sucks when the fans can come up with better concepts than the actual writers...
@@juliagoodwin9510
Thank you very much. I didn't think anyone would read this.
@@RyuSensei42 Welcome!
Still wish this is what the comic was actually like...
@@RyuSensei42 Damn, you got a subscriber, that was that good.
@@williammorahan4907 thank you! Hope you enjoy my incredibly amateur level content.
Danny Chase has been dead for as long as I’ve been alive, and that is not okay.
That's Messed up, DC!
Why don’t they bring HIM back?
Maybe give him a personality disorder as phantasm if you want him to be “deeper” or “more mature”?
I mean, I know what you're saying, but... there's a completely valid reason he's still dead. Yes, Lewis is a big fan of his, as are some others, mostly fellow AT4W fans... but barely anyone else is. He was never a popular or recognized character, was hated by fans when he was alive, and didn't even become infamously memey enough to justify his return like with Snowflame or Brute Force.
There's not much point in bringing back a character that people either hate or have never heard of, even if he does have those few fans.
Personally, I have no opinion of my own on Danny, I've never actually read anything with him in it, but looking at it objectively, DC doesn't exactly have much to gain from bringing him back.
Then again, someone thought it was a bright idea to bring back the Protector and kill him here, so...
He's been dead long than I've been alive. I didn't even know he existed until Lewis Teen Titans retrospective.
I’m not opposed to bringing Danny back... provided they actually work to make him less annoying. The “Rescued from the Scrappy Heap” trope exists for a *reason* after all, it has been done before.
that could have been a good opening line for Raven's confessional, if it was followed by "at least, that's what I think he thinks" and/or "he claims that sometimes, when he thinks it would be useful". Like this event in a nutshell: great potential, absolute shit execution.
Wasn’t the new 52 raven secretly a loyal daughter to her father or was that no longer canon when heroes in crisis came out
@@jetheotaku Is weird, she apparently was forced to be loyal to him and was all for betraying the team because she really couldn't escape him, but i remember that at some point her connection with him broke and she was free again. which she was glad for and even shed a tear of joy, can't say what the issue was thought. With that said, Rebirth has pretty much ignored New 52 TT and hasn't talked much about then, so is most likely not canon anymore.
@@jetheotaku DC canon is an illusion.
Tom King just doesn't know anything about these characters at all
Not being a regular reader of Rebirth, DC, and even comics in general sans a select few Marvel series, I’ve been watching the first two parts of this review in utter horror and disgust, and wonder how the hell so many book stores I’ve been to have the hardcover of Heroes in Crisis constantly on shelves.
Oh wait maybe it’s because the audience who buys trades from the stores knows it’s utterly horrible.
I work in a bookstore. Publishers can be very persuasive when it comes to getting stores to buy multiple copies of books and making sure every store has one. They will use tricks like how much it trended on Twitter, how often it was reviewed, and out-of-context quotes from reviews. Or even sales figures from other works by the authors, even if unrelated to the genre the current book is in.
The copy on the shelf in my bookstore? Been sitting there since release date. In October.
No joke, I own the first issue of Heroes in Crisis because the store I went to couldn't sell it, so they gave it to me for free.
@MasterCha0s Even free was probably too expensive to own a copy of this filth. They should've paid YOU to take it from them, honestly.
That's kinda why comic stores are closing down. As the first comment pointed out, publishers are forcing comic stores to buy their comics. The things is, comic store owners need to make money too. And who provides that? The regular buyers and readers. But if the readers aren't happy with the story, then they won't buy it and that would be a huge loss for the sellers. The ones who are benefiting from this are the publishers, comic artist and writers because they already got their pay.
It's like that image of the comically tall stack of copies of Max Payne 3 in the preowned bin.
Greetings from 2023! As of the recent "One-Minute War" storyline in the mainline Flash series, its been officially retconned that every hero that Wally supposedly killed back at Sanctuary has been alive this entite time, hidden away in a time pocket called Planet Flash and accessible by ally Gold Beetle. This isnt even counting the minor alteration from The Flash #761 2 years back where its revealed that the burst of energy that Wally shot out in anguish was caused by the Speed Force and Reverse Flash's meddling, effectively absolving him of the murders (outside of actively trying to cover up his crimes when he thought he did it and tried to pin the blame on two innocent heroes who almost killed each other because of his meddling). So congradulations new readers! If you wanted to jump into the main series and avoid this uber-grim event comic while not missing anything, now you can!
indeed and I am so happy heroes in crisis has finally been undone and thank god for it,
Tom Taylor "Screw This!!! I'm going to go out of my way to give Wally a happy ending in DCeased!!!"
Wally was in DCeased?, i read it recently and only Barry and Wallace were there.
spiderbatman97 there was a tie in Hope at worlds end if I remember there story right they used the cosmic treadmill to escape into a new universe with Linda and his kids and Bart
@@spiderbatman97 In the digital exclusive series DCEASED Hope at Worlds end issue 3 we see what Wally was doing during the Zombie Apocalypse. Dispite Wally wearing his Rebirth costume, the whole issue is essentially a love letter to the Mark Waid Era. From the first panel Taylor established that DCeased Wally was still happily married to Linda and had been protecting Keystone City just like in the Pre-Flashpoint comics. Also we see Bart Allen living with Max Mercury like in his 90s solo series and together with Jesse Quick the Post Crisis Flash Family open a portal to an alternate Earth, successfully evacuating over 200000 of Keystone City's residents.
Hell, the death we DO get (Max Mercury) is still in a hopeful note. Wally basically melds Max’s consciousness and body with the speed force out of a request just so that their plan won’t have their new world infected and that Max wouldn’t be in pain with the Anti Life Equation . Max didn’t die a gory and painful death. Wally was a hero
Thinking about it, the Joker seems like the perfect villain for this. Have him find out about sanctuary and destroy it out of spite and disgust at the very idea. Have him being the leak, maybe doing all this wolith the help of other "insane" villains. All in an attempt to show that the heroes are "broken", that they are "unhinged" and could turn on people on a dime. That in the end they're just like him. Like a more expansive killing joke situation.
And show that he is wrong. That despite the pain, despite the traumas. They are still heroes willing to do what is right and good despite the risk. Wouldn't that be a great irony? Have the Joker's attempt to show how their suffering makes them weak end up showing how strong they are to do what's right despite their inner demons?
That would explain Harley going mad too her "Puddin" still messes with her mind by getting "Crazy" Flash to kill Ivy.
Considering Wally was convinced “Sanctuary” was solely for him and the non existent poem at he and Linda’s wedding, him misremembering in the hologram chamber could’ve been used to show how delusional he was. But that would’ve been done in a better story not in this schlock.
He didn't even mention the bullshit "identity crisis" literally EVERY ROBIN TALKS ABOUT IN THE SAME WAY. That was the third biggest thing that pissed me off (first is obviously Wally and second is Hal Jordan's absolute bullshit of a confession) because it basically stripped all of my favorite characters of their individuality and turned them into the same dramatic idiocy. Like I can think of things that would be so much better to talk about for these: Tarantula raping Nightwing (why not, the comic doesn't seem to have any continuity), the Forever Evil incident, Dick having to hide his identity from those he loved because he was thought dead, Jason's death, Tim's dad's death... Not to mention, the comic hints the final pages of confessions are happening after the whole thing, but that's funny since Jason refused to go there, and DICK WAS SUFFERING FROM THE WORLD'S LONGEST AND MOST INFURIATING AMNESIA PLOT THAT ONLY RUINS HIS CHARACTER MORE AND MORE AS IT GOES ON.
Did they resolve that yet?
The Nightwing rape reminded me how DC really has a thing for casually having their heroes get raped and not properly addressing it the way they should. Even adaptations do it, like of course there's the infamous Batman & Harley Quinn animated movie (once again Nightwing, because the poor guy can't catch a break), but more recently, SPOILERS for CW Flash Sesson 6:
Barry got raped, and they didn't acknowledge it as rape. At most just got some taunting by his rapist of how they decieved him into sleeping with her (Context: Iris was pulled into a mirror world and replaced with a mirror duplicate working for the villain. During their eventual fight when he did work it out, at one point she is taunting him about how all their times together, including sleeping together, were really all her and not the real Iris). Most we get is a single "shut up" from Barry, and not one that sounds like it matches the weight of what had happened. Plus worse, they immediately after tried to make Mirror Iris seem sympathetic when she died.
@@tylerfoster9719 no, instead they made him "Joker's son"
@@toqkaizogou1636 In regards of Barry and Nightwing: There also is an issue, with certain double standards in regards of abuse etc. If a woman, or child, abuses a man it's often played for laughs, or shrugged off. When the reverse happen? It's Drama. (Not everytime, but often) Case in point: Hank Pym hitting his wife, which for years was the only thing many people knew... with nobody caring about the context.
Rape? If not handled like you mentioned with Barry, it's often chalked up with the piss poor "(S)He enjoyed it!". Usually never handled with the care necessary.
It's expected for male character to just swallow it. If the male character gets raped? The next day it's back to normal, or it even goes "Heck, it's a man, he probably enjoyed it!"
And that's only story telling... Years ago, i watched a video about a woman sharing her experience in a help group for abuse victims. A group mostly composed of women, aside of one man. Said man had the worst story of the whole group. The Group, aside of the woman and the therapeutist of the session laughed, and from what she told it wasn't a "Stress relief" kind of laughter.
There are countries that do not recognize women raping men as a crime... This is an issue that runs deep, due to gender stereotypes or other stuff. I won't go further into that, though.
@@toqkaizogou1636 The one DC comic I know that treated rape with the gravitas and emotional maturity such a topic deserves is James Robinson's Starman. Spoilers for a twenty-year-old comic under the cut.
Supervillain the Mist, who's convinced her and Jack Knight are lovers, rapes him while he's unconscious and bears his child, who she intends to raise as her successor. This unsettles Jack in no small amount, and the eventual decision to raise his son is a big part of his motivation to retire from superhero work at the end of the series.
The phrase “Bros before Heroes” has been annoying me so much and until now I couldn’t figure out why. Then I realised why in context with the comic. It’s saying that despite you committing countless crimes, it’s completely fine if your superhero friends are okay with it and just ignore everyone else because they must be wrong since they’re not your “bros”. The fact though, in both marvel and dc, if one of the superheroes commit a crime, they would investigate and if proven that they did it, they would take them in for this, regardless of friendship or family, because it will be the only way to help them from becoming worse. “Bros before heroes” is stupid and makes no sense!
I choose to hate it because you can read it as equating heroes with prostitutes.
Okay, Lewis? Take the week off. Play with your cats, spend the day with Viga. Just, relax. Recover. This...drivel could strain even the strongest will. I would rather have a week without you than you work dealing with th is shite.
Never forget Danny Chase.
No matter how much the publishers or writers misuse or mishandle our beloved characters, never ever let them die. Remember how much they mean to you as fans.
Never forget Roy & Lian Harper.
Never forget Mia Dearden.
Never forget Jackpot.
Never forget Static Shock.
Never forget Madam Web (Original)
Never forget Valkyrie.
And all the other forgotten and fallen.
And Sarah Essen
These things like that make me angry at Superhero Comics sometimes. Seeing the characters die and not comeback hurts.
@@SuperWolsey RIP too. ;(
Linkara:"Wally didn't use time travel because of Flashpoint. That's fine because we didn't need to see another worse timeline, like Superman being Darkseid or something."
Me: "Damn, now I want you to cover the alternate universe where Clark *was* adopted by Darkseid. That or Superman the Animated Series finale."
I'd go for the latter. It's not bad, I doubt he has any new insights much like World's Finest but I really like Legacy as a (unintentional) series finale.
Cat's like "he's stressed so he needs a cat to pet".
For some reason cartoons keep making Ivy's skin green so I guess DC just opted to make it canon to the comics...despite the cartoons usually being for kids (DTV movies aside) and DC abandoned kids years ago.
I think a lot of the problem should also be put at the feet of Dan DiDio. Rebirth was a rejection of DiDio's Darker DC and he was pushed aside for it and Doomsday Clock. When he took back full control (or at least what he shares with Jim Lee) he tried to push everything back to his take (He did a similar thing to Beast Wars: Transformers when Beast Machines came out over at Mainframe, so there's a history here.) DiDio hates sidekicks and replacement characters, which is why he didn't want original Wally back and brought back Barry Allen. This also explains all the Titan deaths, with Protector being a bonus because he represents a less dark DC universe, late Bronze Age. He thinks heroes should be broken and have issues, something closer to Marvel's "relatable" approach and less like DC's more aspirational tone. This is pretty much a sign of DiDio's take returning and he brings in writers who will perpetuate that Darker DC when he can. It's why I'm glad he's gone.
I'm also fairly certain that teh cartoons didn't have Ivy's musculature be exposed...
@Mikhail G "You thought DC was in good hands, but it was I! Didio!"
For what it's worth, I generally prefer the green-skinned versions of Ivy designs. It shows her as less human and more plant-focused, and IMO it contrasts her red hair really nicely.
That being said, not really a fan of any design that makes a character look as nude as possible. Those are just not really interesting. I think her design in the Harley Quinn show might be one of my favorites.
Ironically, Batman the Aniamted Series, THE most famous and influential version of batman....DIDN"T have a green skinned Ivy. Even in the 'new adventures' season, she had WHITE skin, or at least a VERY light green.
@@undertakernumberone1 Or the anatomy of a Barbie doll. She's clearly naked the whole time, just in a cloned plant body.
Linkara: "This is Hal Jordon's Turn to Evil for a whole new generation!"
At least unlike Hal, DC got to work right away to fix it, and this story was EVENTUALY undone as a whole. THANKFULY!!!
Yeah it was way faster for what i see
It literally took one minute to fix this.
24:46 "These days... Y-you just *never* know who's going to die.... and who's gonna *live*..."
Psycho Pirate was spitting facts without even knowing it
So he wasn’t sent into madness from the fallout of the original Crisis...then again, if you did show a modern story to someone in the 80’s, they would go crazy too
@@undead923 lol Superboy Prime went back in time and handed Psycho Pirate a copy of Heroes in Crisis and was like "*This* is what I was talking about"
I apologize if I get a little ranty, but... something about the "People break out of character" line from the interview just... really got to me. I have PTSD. A condition that in very plain terms... breaks someone. Mundane things start to cause breaks in your mind to send you back to your trauma. It's a record with a scratch, coming back to that one point over and over. But, here's the thing that so few people - and seemingly fewer in positions of writing media - know or really comprehend.
When a person breaks like that, we put ourselves back together. That's how we keep going. For some that takes longer than others, and that's very valid. Some times we do so while misplacing a piece of ourselves, again, valid. I guess what I'm trying to say is that... no, people don't break out of character. We break into character. That break in some way does start to define us, as a crack in a glass would, but that is ultimately a small portion of us. Trauma doesn't rewrite how a person thinks and feels, it influences it certainly, but more often than not has a more galvanizing effect, because our values that develop as children are so constant that it's something we can cling to in those moments of reliving trauma, reminding us who we are and we can overcome our trauma.
Just because you break, or are in some way broken, doesn't make you any less you. It sucks, it hurts, and will be with you for a long time if not the rest of your life, but it doesn't make you a monster, or a different person. And if anyone tells you otherwise, they're lying. Scars and cracks make you no less valid.
Just... gonna leave that there in case anyone needed to hear that. Also, as someone who's trauma comes after years of abuse from an extremely violent father... fuck everyone and everything surrounding the choice to have Raven say that. She deserves so much better.
I think the problem is what they mean by character, but yeah, to say mental illness somehow makes you a fundamentally other person is damaging and I only know partly the struggles of those who have mental illness in one form or another.
My last girlfriend, who tragically died from what I think was heart disease, also struggled with bipolar disorder, but was a person that really didn't deserve the hand life dealt her, yet she persevered and even helped me in some way through her relatively short life (probably passed away around 28-29, iirc)
Thank you for sharing and I hope you continue to do well. 🙂
Heroes in crisis forces me to reflect on my own mental illness. I honestly feel trapped alone with my mundane life, and here's this comic where I finally, FINALLY, relate to the heroes... and its pretty bad, especially the Sanctuary murder mystery, which i hate so much... yeah. My view
Agreed. The fact that there are NO TRAINED THERAPISTS there is just insulting. What's the in-universe point of those confessionals if no qualified physicians are actually watching them? Speaking your problems aloud can be itself therapeutic, but without meaningful dialogue it's just talking into a void.
@@colinvandenberg3446 and unfortunately even if you know you're not alone, issues do cause you to feel hopeless, in which sanctuary should have at least had a damn therapy circle with the heroes, which helps a lot usually, at least for me. That just blows. It's awful.
Is there any character here that came out looking better than they were coming in. And actually live by the end?
Also Barbara being willing to put Booster's life in danger with the weakest of interjection makes her kind of look like an arse.
Barbara really comes off as an awful person in this comic despite the comic trying to paint her as in the right. She aids and abets Harley Quinn, a murder suspect, on the slimmest of hunches and because of her own feelings towards Batman. Despite Harley continuing to want to kill Booster, and other people as well, which really makes it look more and more like she's the killer. And then she knocks out Blue Beetle despite Ted also wanting to find the murderer.
Black Canary, because she just said "Fuck this!" and walked away from this event.
Well, Poison Ivy appeared to have died at the beginning and came back to life at the end, so I guess there’s that.
@jbiehlable Agreed.
As far as I can tell, no.
The best part of learning the full details of Heroes in Crisis? Hmm...
I'm going to have to go with seeing Mr. Lovhaug's kitty. At least there's one Starfire clearly being treated well.
That one's Chieri, but s'all good. =)
@@AT4W Darn. I still get them mixed up. Adorable regardless.
@@AT4W Okay, that's it. I need to ask. What's that name supposed to mean. I can easily get Starfire, but Chieri? Pardon me but, for the life of me, the name doesn't ring any bells.
Do you remember the Netflix Daredevil series? When they try to use PTSD as defence for Punisher's actions and he refuse, arguing that it would be disrespectful to the veterans who actually live with it, that people already believe they are ticking time bombs.
Well, Tom King should have watched it but he clearly didn't.
Jesus christ I forgot about that. Daredevul season 2 was a mess but they definitely got that right. Good in the writers for addressing that stereotype and how harmful it is.
@@galactic85 Well to be fair- everyone is an individual.
And some people defy textbook categorization.
Considering Frank has a catholic upbringing and intended to become a priest before meeting his wife, seems that dude was kinda destined to be the guy that got his therapist’s kid through college
So, the end of this review is basically this:
"Unless someone like you cares a whole awful lot, nothing is going to get better. It's not."
It’s amazing how many issues that line applies to today.
Hoping Linkara tackles the new Ms. Marvel in a character analysis soon. Kamala is competent, adorable and a total nerd, plus she hasn't had a bad comic to date in my opinion.
As a big Kamala fan I’m also awaiting the day when that’ll happen. As it stands right now though there’s probably not enough to sustain a huge look on her a la the retrospectives. Especially since AFAIK, Lewis is behind on current comics and hasn’t read the various team books Kamala is on aside from the latter Champions issues for the recent review.
In one of the PO Unboxings I asked in a letter if her first story arc, No Normal, could be potential review material. This was because of some thoughts he gave on the book on Rangerboard, how it took a while for him to get invested and feeling it took too long to get Kamala to where she needed to be into becoming Ms. Marvel. Would be cool to see that elaborated into a full review.
I thought the Ms. Marvel tie-ins to Civil War 2 were bad. Although Civil War 2 was bad in general so take that as you will.
Gerardo Munoz Idk i rather liked her dynamic with Moon Girl and Quake. Still waiting to see how Kamala deals with Outlawed, since she’s inadvertently at the heart of it.
i remember her team-up with spider-man, sadly at the end of the comic it undoes everything including knowing each other which was a massive mistake because that comic shows that her mentor should have been peter parker instead of carol danvers, they had chemistry and peter is great role model who understands her (kamala's comics read pretty similar like early spider-man comics) sadly marvel is doubing down on carol being her mentor just because both are female charaters despite carol and kamala having nothing in common and carol being proven a bad role model since civil war 2, that comic was wasted potential.......
slifer875 Dude, Carol is Kamala’s hero. No way they weren’t going to show their mentor/student dynamic
Man, that last part really got to me, about the deaths and alignment turns of heroes, and needing to care. Kudos, Linkara.
The sad part is, revival itself is a double-edged sword, because whether literally bringing a character back from the dead, or just meta-textually bringing them back from obscurity, so often it's done in a way that further shows an uncaring attitude: how many heroes go through what these C/D-list heroes went through, brought back just to be turned villainous or killed for shock or motivation for others? Barely given a chance to shine or show what could be done with good writing. It's just unfair to people who'll almost never get a chance to take even a little bit of spotlight.
All three parts in one day I’m impressed with your dedication to ripping on this comic
I know right it's impressive
@@Gio-fs4pp oh god not again.
@@Gio-fs4pp those were dark times
I wish all three parts would come out at the same time. Or at least that the transitions were better.
Just here with the update that 4 years after the issue, Lagoon Boy, Hot Spot, and Commander Steel are still dead while Roy Harper was revived. Looks like Linkara was right
They’re alive in Jeremy Adams’ Flash run.
There’s always someone who cares enough.
If Countdown was the bottom of the barrel and One More Day is in the ground underneath the barrel, Heroes in Crisis is in the center of the Earth, Marville is on the other side of the planet and Holy Terror is in the Antimatter Universe
So it sounds like they were trying to pull a Scarlet Witch scenario with Wally here.
How long has it been since we had “LOOK AT THE PRETTY BUNNY, LOOK AT THE PRETTY BUNNY!!”?
I have never read a Flash comic but I love Wally West. I fell in love with Wally West when I watch Justice League. He was funny charming a bit immature but he was the most compassionate man I have every seen in a cartoon. He cared about his city and it's people. Say hi to every one he passed. He spend his whole Christmas trying to get a sold out toy for a bunch of orphans. He keep his promise to the ultra-Humanite after he help him give the orphans a good Christmas. He helps peoples like superheroes do but it not just stopping the bad guys and putting them in jail. it's getting them the hep they need.
My favorite scene in Justice League it when the Flash, Batman and Orion walk in to bar and see the Trickster sit on a barstool. Batman first reaction to threaten him but the Flash stop him. He sits down next to the Trickster and talks to him. He talks to a man that has tried to kill him. He get the Trickster to tell him the rouges plan all without thrown a single punch. He promise to visit him in the hospital to play darts with him when he stop the rouges. when he about tot leave Orion says "what about your enemy." and the flash say over his shoulder o turns him in after his finishes his drink. and the Trickster say "got me again flash".
That is the Wally West I love. The man the cares about people. the man that after saves his city goes and plays darts with the Trickster when he is in the hospital. the Wally West I know and love is kind and compassionate and this comic ,this company broke him and took his compassion and made him a murderer. I can't say this loud enough but FUCK IS COMIC AND FUCK DC !
Fortunately the DCAU is a separate continuity, so atleast THAT version of Wally didn't suffer this insulting crap. Still F*** this book!!!
That's how I feel when I contrast comic book Batman doing stuff like spying on his friends and building a surveillance network with the DCAU Batman who sat on a swing set next to a terrified, dying little girl so he could hold her hand.
@@mst3kharris The DCAU is the standard in which I compare all other DC stories be they comics, tv, movies and games.
That version of Wally is one of the two characters that got me into comics.
@Dylan Sharp Yeah, the Flash 761 retconned that Eobard Thawne aka the Reverse-Flash had a hand in HiC. Using the Negative Speedforce, Thawne hypnotized Wally, thus explaining why he was acting so out of character during HiC. Basically they just redid the Hal/Parallax retcon from 2004's Green Lantern Rebirth.
y'know while this is "Where bad comics burn", I think I'll take more 'good' events next time please
He made it pretty clear from the Batman 45-47 that this was on the chopping block either way. When I voted, I figured it was better to do it sooner.
Indeed. Here's hoping we get to finish the Infinity trilogy next year.
"my father loves me"
It just
It just makes me want to...**"DESTROY THE WORLD"**
Ha this comic is one of the worst, because I'm a massive Wally fan
Yeah, I also dig Wally, ever since I first new him in the Justice League animated series.
i´m not really a fan of wally and i still agree, this comic sucks.
I'm a fan of Booster Gold, Harley Quinn, Poison Ivy, Batgirl and Wally West.
This comic caused physical pain when I read it.
@@MrGBH As a fan of Harley and Babs, it hurts to see them in this story. They both have PhDs in criminal psychology and neither use their doctoral skills to further the investigation or help the traumatized people they come across. The could have bonded or bickered over their shared skillset. Their potential was not only wasted, but ignored.
As a fan of the DCAU Wally West, FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUACK this comic!
Spoilers so...
Wally West being the killer is probably the most AWFUL part of this book. I won’t even try to point out why because even non DC fans should know how awful that choice is. Really you know what’s the best part is? Wally being the killer is something DC is ALREADY pretending never happened. Because of course, even they won’t pretend that awful shit could stay.
I don't understand why they don't retcon it and retroactively pin the blame on someone else, like Psycho Pirate, Grodd or the easiest scapegoat Eobard Thawne. What are they afraid that retconning HiC would piss off Tom King?
Look I’m a marvel guy starting to dip his toes into dc lore, even I can say that’s where dc dropped the ball
Richard Schneider like pscho Pirate would had made so much sense like wally he effect by crisis and reboot and know all about it
And he is emotional vampire he would love sanctuary for it lack of security staff
He had more of a reason to do this thing due of his mental instability
@@mcpics4448 You're missing something even more obvious.
*That's Psycho Pirate's mask!*
Hey you want a really great retcon would be to undo all of the deaths in this comic? Have it so Wally DIDN'T kill them... no I don't mean that it was some one else, but that he didn't actually kill them with that explosion at all!
Instead have it be that the speed force was forced into every one of their bodies and made them slow down to the point of appearing dead to literally everyone else. It would explain why they couldn't find any actual injuries to any of the bodies, then explain the reason why they are only coming back NOW is because the effects of the speed force are wearing off on them and they are waking up in their own graves alive.
BAM! Not only do you almost fix every mistake that was created because of this comic, but you can actually create more stories from it! From society dealing with these heros they were mornings deaths and 'confessions' ( I'd rewrite them to not be terrible, especially *Ravens* ) but also you can see what happened to their bodies after all this time, maybe a few of them were stolen and replaced by some underground black market where they now have to escape and take down, or for the heros that can't just break out of a casket and dig out six feet from the dirt you can have a comic about one of them trying to escape their own grave with out dying for real!
The worst thing about terrible stories is that most of them are based on premises that CAN be amazing! This story was no different, the problem with it is that the writers ignored all of the actual interesting elements they had to instead focus on the boring generic ones instead.
This story is just non stop pages of middle fingers to my face just for loving dc.
Quoth Yahtzee Crowshaw:
“THERE IS NO MIDDLE FINGER BIG ENOUGH!”
That’s a basic Tom King story
Especially if you are a Wally West fan.
“Hotspot…Gnark…Lagoon Boy….probably aren’t coming back.”
Jeremy Adams: “Bet. AND I’m adding a speedster dinosaur because comic books.”
You know, I think a more interesting twist would have been for the Pre-Crisis Psycho Pirate being the one behind the murders, I'm not really familiar with what happened to him after his death in Infinite Crisis but he has a similar mask to the Sanctuary masks, has emotion controlling powers (which fits thematically with the psychology angle), and has (or had) memories of the Pre-Crisis multiverse which makes him an interesting mirror to Wally.
Yeah, but maybe have Wally survive and witness the murders but feel guilty about not saving anyone due to his own issues.
I love how Booster's time travel tech is known to still be a thing... and yet nobody used it to find Wally's kids... *the reason why he's at Sanctuary!*
Between Marvel’s obsession with being “relevant” and DC’s grimdark fetish, I’m starting to wonder if I should even keep reading these two... but that would mean throwing all the good stories under the bus too...
So I say we should revoke their writers’s and editor’s privileges.
If I may use one of my favorite songs:
“I see pain, I see need,
I see liars and thieves abused power with greed,
I had hope, I believed,
But I’m beginning to think that I’ve been deceived,
You will pay for what you’ve done!
No, no more sorrow,
I’ve paid for your mistakes,
Your time is borrowed,
Your time has come to be replaced!”
(And I’m not condoning sending death threats, rather I believe we should criticize the companies when they do wrong)
You nailed on the head why dont read superhero comics anymore. Rather I read stuff from ONI or IDW
What song is that?
I'm not saying superheroes can deal with serious issues, but they still should be fun!
@Teddy Furstman
No More Sorrow by Linkin Park.
I still read them but I don’t keep up with a lot of modern comics. I just read what has good reviews or interests me regardless of publication time but I still get bs. I get being burnt out by it. Hope you find a reading style that works for you.
24:56 Here's one example of a character hated for turning evil who never looked back and is still at it decades later: Superboy-Prime. As entertainingly whiny as he might be, his turn to evil was originally portrayed as the ultimate tragedy, having left a paradisical alternate reality to save ours which (many thought) had become corrupted and dark, only to become corrupt himself. Yet he has never been given a second chance, the only thing closest to it being artlessly reverted in his appearance in Teen Titans, the boy who was supposed to become the ultimate beacon of hope now a generic doomsday villain. THAT's not getting reverted any time soon. No second chances for Prime, nope.
I highly recommend reading Dark Nights: Death Metal - The Secret Origin #1. I think you’ll be pleasantly surprised.
@@ryanschrafel9576 I read it and man it made me feel for Superboy Prime. Scott Snyder and Geoff Johns did a great job with it and it's pretty much them saying I'm sorry.
Dark knights death metal: Are u sure about dat?
@@ryanschrafel9576 When are we getting Dark Nights: Heavy Metal?
Don’t send death treats, didn’t cha holo you almost threaten to rain death from the skies in response to bad......
OHHH, that’s some nice character development right there!
Wow, an internet nerd who screams at comic books understands the values of good writing and consistently more than professionals in charge of the comic industry.
Now I’m sad, I’d say I was disappointed..... but I’d have to be surprised first
I mean, the real Linkara wasn't exactly okay with the hologram's plan, so it's not really that different.
Plus the thing here's less of an in-character Linkara moment and more of the real Lewis telling us (through the character, granted) not to do something stupid.
I'm sorry but how is simply telling people not to threaten people irl "character development"?
Anyone with some actual knowledge of psychology want to clarify how accurate it is to hatch an overly convoluted plot like Wally? I was under the impression that breaking would make you more impulsive and less conscious of making overly convoluted plots involving framing people and reprograming AI made by Batman.
Yeah, Wally isn't a great planner at the best of times, we've seen him have mental breakdowns before and it makes him act MORE impulsively
I'm definitely no expert, but it would depend on the psychosis. Mad geniuses can and do exist in real life, but Wally is definitely not capable of that given how the comic seems to present his trauma. Furthermore, people do "snap" in real life but according to this that doesn't tend to last very long. www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/are-we-done-fighting/202003/is-what-happens-when-you-snap
It would depend on the person as well as the situation. But with everything we know about wally as well as the situation he's in him spontaneously switching to evil scheme mode makes no sense from a psychological standpoint or from a character standpoint.
It only makes sense from the standpoint of Dan DiDio who hated Wally West and other original legacy characters.
@@kelvinphillips7140 Seriously, what's DiDio's issue with them?
Damnit, I really wish they'd stop screwing over Wally.
Y'know, I'm reminded of how this sort of thing was done better in Young Justice. After a traumatic experience with a training exercise gone wrong, the team have therapy sessions one by one with Black Canary, who very calmly and helpfully talks to them about their problems. It was a very well done example of surviving a traumatic experience, how other people deal with it, and taking the steps towards recovery. Recovering from trauma is never a quick and easy process, and there's a lot of pain from it, but there's always someone who will listen and understand. Young Justice did a wonderful job in showing this aspect of mental health in a superhero medium...
And that's what makes me so sad that 7 years later they f***ed up this badly!
It really makes me think about the state of media nowadays. I may not have gotten into comics until recently (I was more of a superhero TV and movies gal myself) but from what I've heard from friends about DC and Marvel in recent years as well as what I see on this channel and other comics channels, it makes me worried for how the future will shape out for these two companies. And then looking at TV and movies, the MCU has been stagnating since Phase 3 ended, the DCEU was a grimdark flop (with the exception of Shazam, from what I can gather), the Teen Titans are an utter joke, the Arrowverse has been on a downward spiral, and with the exception of Moon Girl and Devil Dinosaur (honestly a light in this darkened age) there's not too much interesting going on with the Marvel cartoons (admittedly this I'm less sure about since it's been a bit since I last paid attention to the Disney Marvel cartoons with the exception of the aforementioned MG&DD). I honestly miss the days of such amazing cartoons like Justice League, Teen Titans, Spectacular Spider-Man, X-Men Evolution, Young Justice... and let's not forget the great movies we've had like the Sam Raimi Spider-Man Trilogy, the X-Men Trilogy, Batman Begins, and even the very start of the MCU when we just started off with a man in an iron suit.
I have to wonder if there truly is a place for superheroes in America anymore. The public has become so cynical and jaded because of the last 10 years that I wouldn't put it past someone to dismiss the old comics and the very concept of superheroes as propaganda for a country that only cares about itself and its own profits. I want to hope that superheroes still have their place in the world, but it's honestly harder to see it nowadays...
That "You break out of character thing," isn't just relevant to this story, a version of it is used so often as a cop-out to allow writers to use characters however they want while being allowed to say "you can criticize me because I "explained" why I wrote the character wrong." One example from just last year with the crappy Batman: Hush animated movie was Bane. They have him acting completely out of character for Bane, but because Batman says that he's acting out of character and that it's implied he was hypnotized by Ivy at the time, that meant that they never wrote him in character for the entire movie, even later on when he wasn't under anyone's control. It especially sucks because Bane STILL has never had a good adaptation outside of the comics because a lot of writers can't wrap their heads around someone being both a physical AND mental match for Batman.
Reminds me of Jason Aaron with She-Hulk in his Avengers run.
The _Injustice_ video games are a pretty good depiction of Bane in my opinion. He's not in them _too_ much though, so... 🤷🏾♀️
I liked Bane in Arkham Origins.
hush movie was amazing imo, and need i direct you towards Arkham Origins, the best Bane outside of comics
"No one cared who I was until I put on the Mask."
Spoilers for today’s issue of the Flash: they all have been brought back. Hot Spot, Gnark, and even Lagoon Boy.
So now we can completely forget about this storyline because most of it basically didn’t happen at this point
He even brought back GUNFIRE of all heroes. And Commander Steel. AND the Protector.
If he even remembered Glonth of all characters for a previous issue as a cameo, Adams knows not to waste space lmao
I’m here form the future and all the other characters who died
EVERYONE BACK
All thanks to Jeremy Adams!
So...remember how Batman couldn't figure out how they were killed? Apparently he forgot to CHECK TO SEE IF THE BODIES WERE TAMPERED WITH! It's like the writer forgot he was a detective...oh wait he did.
Ah yes, speedsters need to constantly restrain themselves to control the Speed Force.
Why, just look at Bart Allen! Clearly the height of restraint!
And it's not like there are times when villains would've found the devastation of a small lightning storm useful or anything!
I know lightning is sometimes part of the speedsters' repitoires, but there's generally a reason you don't see thawne go "UNNNNNIMITED POWEERRRRRRRRR" on people.
I'm genuinely surprised at the fact that Dan Garrett hasn't been seen in 50-odd years, considering DCs love of ret-cons, you'd think he'd have popped up somewhere? Hell, put him with the Justice Society of America since they were all the World War 2 style heroes, weren't they? It had Alan Scott and Jay Garrick, so why not just put the OG Blue Beetle in with them?
Isn't it obvious? Dan Garrett's presence has been purposely erased from DC's history, by his greatest, most ancient, most diabolical arch-foe.....
BIG DIX!!!
Dan was probably just a lesser-known at the time.
People who give death threats to a creator are the ones who really need a therapist and honestly what does it provide nothing
What is DC’s opinion on mental health?
Question: what is DC Comics most famous prison?
Oh yeah...an Asylum.
Not only that, but an asylum that writers keep forgetting is, in fact, a mental health facility (a terrible one, admittedly) and not just Gotham's local prison where ALLL the bad guys go, insane or not.
I always loved Barry as my flash, but I will never forgive what this series did to Wally. He embodied what Barry strove to be. He had his flaws sure, but he learned all the lessons Barry taught him and ended up being a more successful flash overall. To say that he would do what he did in this series shows a blatant disregard for both the character himself and the fans that grew up reading his stories.
Yep.
As someone who cares a bit more about Wally than Barry, thanks for reminding me where Wally got his drive to do the right thing and be a hero.
Wally is one of the examples I like to use as to why I like the idea of torches being passed *permanently*. Barry went out in a badass way, and Wally took up his mantle and eventually surpassed him. If Barry HAD to be resurrected, then he should honestly have just retired, maybe stayed as an advisor and only getting back into the red spandex when absolutely necessary. Miles Morales is another example, although for somewhat different reasons (Peter's character development constantly getting reset because writers don't know what to do with him).
@@LemurDreamer87
Miles was good because ultimate Peter never got those bs resets, so someone else taking the torch was actually heartfelt and done well, considering it was written by the same guy who "killed" that Peter. I'd agree that's the closest we've had to a "passing the torch" moment we've had since Barry died. I agree with you. He should have been more in a Jay Garrick type role. A mentor, but someone who really doesn't join the fight unless its absolutely necessary. Barry was proud of Wally in the issues where he came back from the future of "before the events of COIE" and while it makes no damn sense that something like that could happen, Barry seemed content knowing Wally was the new flash and that his story was over. ENTER GEOFF JOHNS. I'm glad Barry's back cause I love him, but they literally had no ideas to do with him, and then they made flashpoint. And flashpoint makes less sense than literally anything else that ever happened. It makes less sense than zero hour. Then they blamed Barry for the timeline change. How are you gonna resurrect a fan favorite then make him responsible for a huge tragedy? ENTER TOM KING. I'd rather Barry stayed dead at this point. Him coming back seems to be the impetus of all these writers awful ideas, and then they just go "welpz, speed force tho" and don't care that the things they write make literally zero sense.