Just wanted to touch on one part of the video that was only partially correct: The THUMB RING on the Polish Sabre: The thumb ring was there (partially) for better grip, extra power, etc., etc.... But the main reason for the thumb ring was to allow the wielder to cut with the sabre using power from the wrist, as opposed to having to perform huge cuts from the shoulders. This allowed the wielder to be just as (if not more so) efficient, versatile, and deadly on foot as they are on horseback. The blade could now perform cuts with the speed and accuracy akin to that of a Cut-and-Thrust, as opposed to that of a Single-Hand Broadsword.
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Very nice presentation! I enjoyed it. I was suprised to hear you mention the early Hungarian sabres from the 9th and 10th Centuries. Those tend to be ignored by most people. There were earlier ones, used by the Avars, but those were found in Hungary too. And it's interesting to see how you describe various cultures using the sabre. Ta!
about the reason why a lot of chinese sabre are so short. 1)asian were smaller. 2) horse breeds in asia were smaller. 3) cavalry played different role at war in asia. small horse can't pack heavy impact like the european cavalry. thus they more rely on horse archery, lancer or mounted infantry. ride to place then dismount and fight with crossbow, spear. short sabre only act as the last defense when enemy get up in your face.
Chinese cavalry used Miao Dao for centuries, which are much longer. The shorter broad sword that u are referring to were used by foot soldiers in conjunction w a shield
While the average Asian person was technically smaller than average Europeans, they weren't that much smaller because most Europeans were pretty small throughout most of their history too. Even so, I don't think Asian people were/are so much smaller that it would make them need significantly smaller swords. Keep in mind that most people, Asian and European, were not using swords as their primary weapons. Most people used either ranged weapons or some kind of polearm. In fact, as someone mentioned, many Chinese and Mongolian swords were fucking HUGE and heavy af...
Actually they typically were. There are some good statistics on the Japanese for example, who didn't really begin to close the gap with Europeans and Americans until the second half of the 20th century. Look to about 1600 for example and the average Japanese male was around 5 foot to 5'1" tall. When the average European was 5'6-5'8". That difference is very substantial. Countless documents and manuals from around the world have documented how sword size should be made in relation to the user. Now of course how they scale to the user varies depending on the culture, the master etc. But if you wanted to take on example, a common method of recommending rapier blade length is that the pommel should reach the armpit when the sword is stood upright, and that would lead to a massive variation due to human height. Yes there are some massive Chinese swords like the Miaodao, but you need to compare like for like. The equivalent large European two handers were far larger again.
Academy of Historical Fencing Idk if Japanese people get to be the standard "Asian". They were smaller than say, Mongolians or Northern Chinese who were closer to the size of Europeans. But then again, European sizes differed just as much as Asians, so idk lol And yeah, everyone had a version of the BIG ASS SWORD. Even Japan had their version lol
When I played the game "Fable" as a kid I would always buy the title "Sabre." Fitting that my first sword ended up being a sabre (didn't know it was one at the time.)
Actually saber originateted among turkic nomad tribes at the 7th century, they inhabited wide piece of land from ural mountains to black sea. Hungarians contacted with Khazarian khanate and other turkic states. Being in such relationships, hungarians have acquired many things from nomads including war atributes. In any case, if you compare hungarian sabers from IX century and IX centuries turkic or Rus sabers you will find them almost identical.
I must congratulate you on your pronunciation of szabla... that's probably the best I've heard from an English speaker.I think it's interesting that you discuss the sabre as an infantry weapon; it was certainly used so, and historical sabre fencing is still taught in places (both earlier medieval and the later, simplified Napoleonic versions). But I do think it's telling that the peoples most associated with the sabre (the Avars, the Magyars and Hungarians, the Poles, and the innumerable Turkic peoples) were all known for their horsemanship and cavalry. It can certainly be used on foot, and it certainly was used on foot, but I would assume that at least initially this was not its original purpose.
+VelmiVelkiZrut Thanks, we have a few Polish fencers in the club, it helps :-) It will of course not be very difficult to ever find out exactly why the sabre came about, but it is certainly true that the peoples who used in early on were mostly semi-nomadic and yes known for their horsemanship. Whether the sabre became what it was because of that horsemanship is a big question. Quite likely I should imagine, but it may just have been a more universal approach to a sword. I have seen quite a few interesting articles by swordsmiths explaining how sabres are simply easier and quicker to construct when forging. Today it has more interest to us as an infantry weapon simply because horses are scarce compared to what they were, and because so many of us came from a background of infantry sword usage such as the rapier or longsword.
i think the horse is the main issue why some of our sabre are really short. size of the man isn't that much of a big factor. a lot of chinese infantry weapon were huge, 140cm~170cm miao dao like two handed sabre(120cm blade) were quiet common in northern frontier. pikes over 7meter were found in the mass grave. however our one handed sabre rarely has a blade longer than 80cm. i think the reason is on the smaller horse. i doubt the western heavy cavalry shock+ melee tactic will be practical with our 300kg horse.
Where did the Hungarians came from? What about the Bulgars, Avars before them. The sabre is a cavalry implement, and it came from the Eur-Asian steppes.
So we have a very early history in the Ural mountains but around 3 thousand years ago we moved a few kms west and suddenly were in Europe. After this we migrated westward and in the late 9th century we settled in the Carpathian basin. Before that the Pannonian avars lived there, and the earliest find of the sabre is ~680 AD, but Greek sources mention them earlier, in the 5th century (earliest mention) and in later sources (8-9th century) complain about the semitic people stealing their weapon designs. The sabre as a design is likely to be either Byzantine or Persian but straight swords were prevalent in almost all of the world until Ottoman influence kicked in in the 16-17th centuries.
They were Uralic peoples who have started their migration from the Ural mountains. They settled in with the Turkic Onogur Confederation(On-Ogur means ten tribes in Turkic). Some Greek fella recorded them as ungar deriving it from the Turkic tribes they were settling with. Thats how their names(known to the west) spreaded out. We still call them Macar though.
I can't remember if I told you already but at Féile na Gaiscígh, an Irish HEMA event which took place on the 30th of June, I finally got the opportunity to learn about sabre fencing as there was a beginner's workshop first thing on the first day and a second class on the last day and I was so happy to learn that it was just as fun as I was hoping it'd be.
What about something like a Windlass 1833 Dragoon Saber? Not that curved. Maybe a slight curve. How did that come about? Seems like they wanted some cutting capacity with a tip for thrusting.
If you are interessed in polish sabres, here's some that have been used in Poland over the milenium (list on the left): www.szablapolska.com/ . Also for sport sabres - they got a very slight curve
Besides accidents from 2WW which you've mentioned, the last appearance of szabla, or (as you barbarians would like to call it) sabre was the Battle of Komarów in 1920. It was the last battle when cavalry was used as such, and not as mounted infantry. Also it was quite important.
Battle of Komarów was probably the last battle between two large cavalry units, 2WW battles involved single cavalry regiments against infantry. But they were properly executed and most importantly successful cavalry charges, not some accidental involvement of guys who just happened to be sitting on horses.
Hey! Can you tell me more about that Japanese sabre? I am familiar with the two-handed Kyu-Gunto for the Army, and the later Shin-Guntos, but not yet much else. I do like the hybrid east-west patterns. Is it an original, or a repro? Speaking of which, where do you get your antiques?
+Michael Eversberg II If the definition of a "curved sword" is used, the Katana is a sabre, the wakizashi is a (very short) sabre. So the Tachi and all others would be too.
+Sebastian Szukalski you forgot about the blade length some Katana count as a saber others as a cutlass. Wakizashi definitely counts as a cutlass. Tachi tend to be a little longer on average I think, so most would be counted as a saber.
+Michael Eversberg II Sebastian Szukalski has already given you a good answer on the sword type. Yes mine is original, though the blade has been chrome plated at some stage which makes it look rather modern. They were popular for a short time period and came in both infantry and cavalry blade lengths. I get my antiques from many sources, usually local militaria and antiques dealers. Auction houses and militaria dealers/events are the best bet. The majority of dealers online are way overpriced, but there are a few good ones.
That is true, and is a fascinating aspect of the last years of the sword in military use (extending to WW2 in smaller actions). Though the British didn't use sabres in WW1, having moved to a very different sort of blade, as well as lancers. Plenty of cavalry did make use of sabres in this time though.
14:00-14:14 he was talking about Hussars as the light cavalry in Hungary and how it was their swords as opposed to the heavy cavalry straight swords. and when I heard this I remembered that the polish heavy cavalry used sabres as well In other words: THE WINGED HUSSARS ARRIVED!!!!!! Also the Hussar regiments for different nations in Western Europe came in to existence after the Ottman siege of Vienna in 1683. After seeing the charge of the hussars multiple country became interested setting up their own hussar untis that often carried Sabres
It is a British coastguard and customs cutlass with no exact model year, but used throughout the Victorian period. Mine has had the side bar cut off, seeminglu intentionally as they were often done for easy storage. It was made by Enfield.
Depends on what definition you use. According to Britannica, "Sabre, also spelled saber, heavy military sword with a long cutting edge and, often, a curved blade. Most commonly a cavalry weapon, the sabre was derived from a Hungarian cavalry sword introduced from the Orient in the 18th century; also a light fencing weapon developed in Italy in the 19th century for duelling." So a straight saber is a thing.
By use of sabre is as it was used in British English through the period when it was in use as a weapon. Britannica, and most dictionaries are awful when it comes to technical descriptions, and even broader ones. For example in British English the sabre was by definition a curved blade, only the introduction of the sport sabre did it ever apply to something straight, and clearly a sport sabre is a very different animal to a military sabre. To call them heavy is a joke by people who know nothing about them, and even the "commonly a cavalry weapon" causes confusion, leading people to believe they were really only for that purpose. "Straight sabre" is not a thing in British English, though it is in American English, and also in French. Those languages have slightly different definitions.
Would you consider the Zombie Tools' D'Capitan saber to be a saber or a cutlass? The 27" blade would put it in the cutlass class but it's width and shape put it in the saber class.
some lessons from real academic researches (!); 1-Sabre-Saber-Szabla word came from turkic khipcak origin which "sabala" 2-curved shamshir swords created by Seljuk Turks which lived at İran. 3-Real Persian Shamshir was Straight swords not curved. 4-The Karabela sword which known as Polish Sabre orginally came from Ottoman (14th century), Poles start to use Sabre at 16th century. 5-Memalukes was Turkic slave soldiers then became Sultans thats why memaluke swords also came from Turkic origin.
Sabers certainly originate from late ancient persia, from the Hungarian Onogur confederation or the turks. Ethimology doesnt really help in determining weather it originated with the Turks and the Hungarians adopted it along with agriculture, or the Hungarians brought the design from Siberia, as the name derives from absolutely basic words in both languages. Szab in hungarian means to cut. Szablya means cutter.
Wondering if you guys could help. Hanger sword, mortuary sword, backsword, schiavona, sidesword. Aside from the schiavona being nominally Italian, what in the world is the difference between these types of swords?
+Robert Weston A hanger is a shortsword, typically a short sabre or short backsword. A cutlass is the same sword, and the terms were often used interchangeably. A Mortuary sword is a uniquely English type of basket hilt that had faces detailed on the guard, later Charles I after his death. They had both back edge and double edged blades. A backsword is just a single edged sword. Many early falchions looked like this, as well as a great many basket hilted swords. Sidesword is a sword which is a hybrid between medieval arming sword and the renaissance rapier. In between the two in length, it focuses on more thrust work than many arming swords would, but has a stronger cut than the rapier, and was commonly used in civilian wear and also military service. They are characterised by a protective hilt that allows the index finger to wrap over the guard like you would a rapier, A Schiavona is a unique style of basket hilt that rose from Italy to become popular throughout Europe. It typically has a long double, or single edged blade, a cats head pommel, a unique and characteristic basket shape and usually a thumb ring too (as found on many Polish sabres for example)
If you define the saber as a principally military weapon, then you had the wrong Chinese sword. The Ox Tail saber was a civilian weapon from the 19th century and never used as military issue. The most common was the willow leaf saber (Liuye dao) which looked very mush like a European saber with a modest curve, disk guard and single handed grip. Blade length was normally between 28-32 inch; shorter for foot soldiers, longer for mounted troops. Naturally, civilian blades could be much shorter for defensive use in tight areas where their may not be room to swing a longer blade. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liuyedao
I’d love more information on the saber blades, types of points and tips, false edge types and more. I’m confused on if the entire blade is sharp or the string of the blade is left dull. I’d like to know more on the difference between hatchet point, spear point, and what others there might be.
What's a good cheap metal training sabre? I know you found flaws with the hanwei hutton guard, but what if one made their own guard for this sword out of mild steel plate? Just a thought.
18:40 that's starting to look more practical. Maybe not as menacing or effective as the napoleonics, but those lighter ones look a lot more wieldly. Thanks for the overview.
i like 1796 a lot also because the combination of deep curve and false edge. the false edge cut can go around blade or guard and hits wrist and arm like a bird's beak.
While I'm all for giving eastern Europe more exposure, Hungary almost certainly didn't originate the saber, just brought it to Europe. When talking about early Hungary, it was pretty much magyar tribes that brought it in, and that means east of Hungary. If I had to pinpoint an origin, I'd go for northern China - they used a form of dao during Three Kingdoms period that was straight and started to put a curve on it sometime after it.
+MartinGreywolf Magyar/Hungary are used interchangeably today as far as geography goes. With their semi-nomadic lifestyle, and many other peoples around them, it may be hard to ever place a definite area as to where they came from. I would be interested to see more information on the development of Chinese sabres. I have seen a lot of evidence for Hungary (Magyar tribes) being the source, as well as peoples from Turkey and the surrounding area. But so often the information on Chinese blades is vague everywhere I look, for that period at least.
China most likely was NOT the origin of the saber. China from its early history up to the Song Dynasty did have backswords, but it seems that proper sabers that are curved seem to come in during the Yuan Dynasty when the Mongols invaded. The most likely "origin" of the saber seems to be Central Asian nomads of various types (Mongols, Turks, Magyars, etc.). With that said though, it seems likely that adding a curve to a single-edged sword is something that has developed independently across multiple parts of the world. For example, the transition from chokuto (a backsword) to tachi in Japan seems to have been done independently from China and the outside world and may have been partially influenced by swords belonging to northern Japan's native peoples, the Emishi, who developed curved short swords (i.e. warabite-to) without any outside influence. +Academy of Historical Fencing Here's some websites with some info on Chinese swords and sabers if you're interested: thomaschen.freewebspace.com/index.html chineseswords.freewebspace.com/about.html greatmingmilitary.blogspot.com/search/label/sword
Academy of Historical Fencing Well, I'd have to disagree a bit about using Magyar and Hungary interchangeably to a degree. You are correct that Hungary today is mostly populated by Magyars (for all intents and purposes), so there's little distinction. However, as soon as we start talking about Hungary as in Kingdom of Hungary (or Austro-Hungarian Empire), they aren't interchangeable at all, especially if we talk about early history of it. While nobility did swiftly intermarry between themselves, people they ruled retained their culture and languages (well, aside from the christian conversion thing), to a point where foreign travelers gave specific names to certain parts of it based on ethnicity - there were little sabers and composite bows in the northern parts. Similar thing to this is claiming that Scotland and Wales are part of England.
+Tyler Lalonde Thanks. Are you after examples just to look at or to buy? Military Heritage do at least one, the straight bladed 1804 British pattern. That one as an original is worth a lot because of its Napoleonic heritage, others are much cheaper. You can often get 19th century cutlass for £70-120. Let me know what you are after and I can send links.
+Tyler Lalonde British Napoleonic cutlass - www.antiqueswordsonline.com/british-1804-pattern-naval-cutlass/ This document - www.cutandparry.com/86_tuuite_naval.pdf This book - www.amazon.co.uk/British-Naval-Swords-Swordsmanship-McGrath/dp/184832135X This book has a lot of hangers - www.amazon.com/British-Military-Swords-Volume-Standing/dp/1931464618 1900 pattern cutlass for sale at top of page - www.blunderbuss-antiques.co.uk/shop.php Bristol police practicing with the Police regulation cutlass/hanger - c1.staticflickr.com/3/2071/2049070157_03e1019c91_b.jpg
Could you make a video specifically for hangers and cutlasses? As in how they would be used, which period where they mostly used during? Thanks for the videos by the way 🙂
+TheKrodgib Yes I certainly will do. Though very briefly I can tell you they were taught according to the same methods as the sabre, only some manuals recommend not striking towards the leg because of its short reach. I will get a video done soon to cover it in more detail.
Don't forget the Byzantine paramerion. Also appeared around the same time as the Hungarian weapons. Mentioned in several military treatises, including the Taktika of Leo VI. People who say that it wasn't curved at this point deny blatant evidence.
ruclips.net/video/I1ZCtOqVkns/видео.html illetve ruclips.net/video/bRhT3Z8Tgr0/видео.html vagy ruclips.net/video/ok-dexQxfLw/видео.html ruclips.net/video/8GnRHHZ10B4/видео.html Atilla szablyája (atilla sabre) in austria ruclips.net/video/0_zM9PRL73I/видео.html
Does the concept of "noble war" exist in military sabre (British or otherwise) or is it replaced entirely by the lunge and recover principle? From what I've seen there's little to no winding at all in sabre and fighters prefer to retreat or strike a different cut if they fail to connect.
+Ranziel1 There are a couple of techniques that are essentially winding, but they are comparatively rare. With the dexterity, speed and rotational elements of a sabre, they are rarely useful.
I would love to learn to spar with a Persian shamshir, but they seem to be really rare online as I can't even seem to find a reliable one for sparring. Do you know where a good place to look would be?
It's true that almost nobody makes them. it would be worth asking Dr. Manouchehr Moshtagh Khorasani, who specialises in Persian martial arts. I know he has aluminium ones made at least. Besides that, I just had a shamshir bladed British infantry sabre made (as they were popular around 1800), by Wjocech Szanek in Poland. He will make you one, but it will cost around 400 euros.
Hard to believe what is basically a giant knife, appeared or originated in Hungary, so late, when probably most tribes that used knives in history, reached the conclusion of making a bigger one. From persians, to the intricate and ancient egyptian khopesh, ancient greece too, and so on...
+Shaka12 Yeah... his not so convincing saber origin is quite eurocentric indeed. It probably has it's actual origins, like modern history is finding more and more things to have had, in several places at a time, and not one country. I'd guess around middle-east, western asia and eastern europe.
I'd put the most likely origins to either the Byzantine or the Persian Empire. The byzantine sources mention the παραμήριον (sabre) first in history. The first finds of sabres were in the Carpathian Basin however.
It may well be an infantry officers sword. They were typically based on the 1796 light cav, but made a little smaller and lighter. It is still a sabre. In fact around 30" is very typical for British infantry sabres of the late 18th and early 19th century. You could also have a cut down cavalry sword. I'd need to see pictures. But at that length and a thinner guard, very much suggest infantry officer. The dividing line between hanger and sabre is a blurry one, but its somewhere around 29". You will find some stats on some of the swords I own here - www.flickr.com/photos/155366595@N06/albums/72157690346713756
The true sabre was developed in Turkic Central Asia in the 9th century, or possibly earlier. All sabres are descended from the earliest Central Asian forms, being introduced into other areas through invasion by, and other interactions with, peoples originating on the Eurasian steppes, such as the Bulgars, Magyars and various Turkic peoples.
Liked this very informative video, and learned a lot. You might want to be a little more aware of where the edge of the screen is when showing swords, though. A lot of the sword you're showing spends a lot of time off-camera. :-)
So I'm really interested in single edged swords and I'd love to learn to properly use a saber, however the only armed martial arts I could learn in my area are kendo and escrima, so not what I'm looking for at all. Is there a way to train on your own? I know it's obviously not the same as having someone teach you all the techniques but there's gotta be something I can do...
+Light Hawk Solo wise there are some things you can do, but they are very limited. Check out these two videos for more on the subject - ruclips.net/video/vuAC8UmFX0k/видео.html ruclips.net/video/tIgVh5yA4B0/видео.html
Look for a school that does it. If you can't find one, consider finding some like minded people and start a study group. It's one of the easiest weapons to get started with. Lots of people have started from the same position.
@PiotrHo4 ruclips.net/video/I1ZCtOqVkns/видео.html illetve ruclips.net/video/bRhT3Z8Tgr0/видео.html vagy ruclips.net/video/ok-dexQxfLw/видео.html ruclips.net/video/8GnRHHZ10B4/видео.html Atilla szablyája (atilla sabre) in austria ruclips.net/video/0_zM9PRL73I/видео.html
+Tyler Lalonde As masterorca said. Dr. Khorasani's is a passionate and dedicated researcher and practitioner of those arts, definitely check out his channel. ruclips.net/channel/UCEkddFkwPzt5q_Z6F23sNUQ
It can vary a fair bit depending on the period and style. But the typical range (not including cavalry) is 700g-900g. What is ideal depends on the type of guard, length of blade, and how you intend to use it. For example, Napoleonic British infantry sabres, the ideal is around 750-800g. For post 1821 where the guards were more developed, and blades a little longer, 820-900,
Overall very interesting and comprehensive video, just one question. At around 2:40 you say that the 1796 pattern sabre is considered the best swords ever made. I have a sort of issue with statements like that. Why is it THE best sword? If it was, why didn't they just keep it forever, since it was the best anyway? I always thought every sword was best for its specific purpose.
'Considered to be one of the best if not the best pattern sword ever made'. I was merely mentioning that reputation because it speaks volumes to how well it was considered in its day and still is today, not that I think it is the best sword, merely that it is an exceptional one. Yes context is everything, but a sword is best judged on how good it is for the job it was intended or was used, and the 1796 LC excelled as a light cavalry sword, as opposed to many other British patterns that were plagued with reports of faults and design flaws, many of which were justified. Throughout the 19th century British doctrine turned more towards light tipped swords that were better suited to thrusting, whilst still being good as at cutting, but many believe the compromise was a compromise too far. Being not particularly great at either. In fact the British Indian cavalry were still using the type for a hundred years longer after the British regulars adopted new patterns. Not every change is for the best :-) So no, not the best sword, but one of the best certainly.
Academy of Historical Fencing Thank you very much for clearing it up! I didn't mean to nitpick, it just struck me as an odd thing to say, coming from someone with your expertise in the matter. Makes much more sense with that elaborate answer, of course without wanting to dive into the thrust vs cut discussion. So thanks again, I appreciate it!
I am not convinced that is always is an important factor as far as use goes. There is plenty of evidence of very hard and razor sharp Indian blades facing off against not so sharp and softer British sabres in the 19th century. There is no suggestion of how it changed their use. Though there is evidence that the wounds caused were slightly different, from deep slicing to more blunt force trauma. A very hard blade on a sabre could cause you to try and avoid certain dead parries due to brittleness, maybe. But I doubt it.
Yes but I have never seen any sabres that are hardened to that point, not from any culture. I've not put the Japanese military sabres into test cutting so perhaps those might be.
You say in the video that one of the advantages of a curved blade is its usability in confined quarters because of how it curves around the body. Certainly it could be expected that naval officers would often find themselves using their swords in very confined quarters belowdecks - so why do you figure both the 1805 and 1827 RN officer's swords (as well as 1804 pattern cutlass, and the 1845 very nearly so) had a completely straight blade?
+Michal Lukáč 1805 pattern - it is a spadroon, and like the 1796 infantry spadroon, it was assumed that the officers wearing them would likely never have to fight with them. At this time period you will find constant reference to officers buying sabres, based on the 1803 or pre/non regulation similar models, just as many army officers were doing. You will often find these in museums and auction houses. 1827 model - this comes from a period of standardisation where all services were essentially using a derivative of the same pattern. Look to infantry, cavalry and navy at this time and they are all essentially the same weapon. Fashion, standardisation, an approach to a more universal weapon, an attempt to make a perfect hybrid cut and thrust sabre. All of these reasons are major factors.
+Academy of Historical Fencing Are you positive about that? None of the examples of the 1805 I saw had spadroon blades, they were all a straight-edge backsword (much like the later infantry models) with a stirrup hilt. One was even pipe-backed. And the 1827 is at most as curved as the 1845 infantry model.
+Michal Lukáč That is what the British spadroon blade is. A light, straight, single edge backsword blade. Spadroons can have a variety of blade types, and hilt types. It is simply a lightweight, short straight sword for use on foot. The 1805 was just a new fashion/pattern version of the great many simple spadroons that came before it for both infantry and naval use in the 18th century, such as the five ball spadroon.
+Tom Rundell I find them quite interesting. Certainly they reduce the chance of slipping or losing grip, and they can increase power in some actions. However they can feel a little awkward in some actions. I have only used them briefly with sabres though so need to do a little more before coming to a more thorough conclusion. I have used them with basket hilts and that is my opinion so far.
+Alex Hutchins What sort of hilt type does it have in terms of protection and how much curvature? Sounds like you probably have something well suited to the Infantry Sword Exercise manual from Henry Angelo. The art of defence on foot by Roworth is what we most study from, and it is perfectly applicable to a range of sabres.
+Alex Hutchins Sounds like you might have something rather earlier period to around the 16th century. Any chance you could show me a picture? Or find an image of something similar online?
+Academy of Historical Fencing This is the same as mine, except mine does not have the piecework (www.alcheminc.com/AguirreS2.jpg). I fence through the S.C.A. so I am looking for a mid 16th century style more so. Not that it really matters.
+Alex Hutchins With that style of sword I would be inclined to stick with sidesword type Bolognese swordsmanship like Marozzo or Dall'agocchie. It will work perfectly for those systems. If you specifically wanted something with a curved blade, well there are very few early resources on sabre. You could consider look at Richard Marsden's Polish sabre book which tries to reconstruct 17th century Polish sabre by merging later systems with earlier related weapons. Or check out Joachim Meyers dussack possibly.
Would you consider the German Kriegsmesser (it has a bunch of names but War Knife seems most appropriate), and its one handed cousin the to be precursors to the Sabre? And would you ever do a video on them?
+sf90001 They came about a lot later than the sabre in Eastern Europe, the middle east and the far east, but they may well be one of the ways in which such swords gained in popularity in Northern Europe yes. I will indeed put the subject on my list of videos to make.
That's very interesting, I look forward to seeing the video! And since Blackfencer makes practice Messers maybe some dueling videos too? If that's not to much to hope for.
+sf90001 We don't have any of the BF messers. Personally they are not my kind of thing. But I have ordered a storta from them, which uses the same blade and is essentially a slightly later period type of falchion.
It's a very complex topic. For a start straight swords were not inherently stabbing swords. Many straight swords were intended more for the cut in fact. For example the 1796 light and heavy cavalry swords came out the same year, both intended as heavy cutting swords, but one very curved and the other straight. The role of the users played a part here, with light cavalry intended for haraessing and scout work, and the heavies a blunt instrument. Ultimately the driving force late on was a constant argument between which was best, cut or thrust, and most armies settled in the middle with a lightly curved blade well suited to both cut and thrust. The move towards very heavily thrust orientated blades like the 1892 infantry and 1908 trooper of course came very late, as swords were really in their last few years of active service, and this just came from a doctrine of through that followed the point being best in most situations, which isn't neccessarily right of course, but the feeling of the day by those most heavily involved with sword patterns.
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+edi It's not about size. However a Pallasch can have a single or double edged blade. In English, the the time period of the sabre, the equivalent term for a pallasch would be broadsword, which can be single or double, like the Scots broadsword. But even that term is not exact, as often sabres were called broadswords sometimes. A backsword is of course, by definition, always single edged.
but we have sabers ( curved swords very similar to a polish saber ) in our museums that dates to 7th century ( arab/north african ), it was also a cavalry sword, can anyone care to explain the diff?
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+kiran hill Well it's not quite true that they did. If you look to the Napoleonic era, it is a complete mix of completely straight blades (heavy cav, spadroon, navy officer, cutlass), to heavily curved (1803 infantry, light cav and flank officer swords). In the 1820's, all of the above moved to lightly curved blades, which clearly are a compromise between the two, and that is largely the reason. A desire to have a blade that excels at both cut and thrust. Like most compromises though, it rarely works out that way. Move onwards towards the later 19th century when they finally went straight for most swords - this was a new philosophy, that the point was better than the edge. It was researched and found that the point was more likely to kill than the edge, something the French relied on in the Napoleonic era. This doctrine of course is far from perfect.
I don't know if you know, but your Japanese cavalry troopers 1899 sabre looks actually like the Chinese version of the Japanese design which they copied. The original Japanese sabres had wood on the handle where your piece has this green part, which should be a plastic. Another indication would be the scabbard. If it has 2 rings to hang it, its most likely the Chinese army version. Just so you know.
+Academy of Historical Fencing Yep i know it doesnt really give information for the viewer, but I just wanted to give you more information in case you didn't know. But one more question, did you handle the real Japanese version of the sabre? I have the Chinese version myself and I was wondering if the original has its pob so far away from the guard. I use my Chinese version as my heavy training sabre and you know what you have done after a intense training :)
No I would not. Because I would define a sabre as a curved blade, and a kopis, falcate etc as a recurve blade. Despite them being curved, the curve in the opposite direction creates a very different dynamic.
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Both original antiques. The first is a British coastguard and customs cutlass made by Enfield around 1870. The second is a Type 32 gunto, a Japanese design of military sabre, the one shown is a period Chinese version who also adopted the sword.
I dont understand the thematic comparisons people sometimes make when really *themes* dont quite apply to the reality - I understand that a pallasch is slower in the hand than a lighter curved sword is but to then say that because of that a pallasch is less suitable for light cavalry or that a curved sword is more suitable for light cavalry because light cavalry are tactically a light and fast force doesnt really makes sense - they are linked thematically but who is to say that you need light and fast swords for a tactically or operationally light attack force?
+hotsteamypudding For one, that was the philosophy for the time by the army, whether we agree or not is another matter. Like the 1908 was believed to be the greatest cavalry sword ever designed by those creating military doctrine of the time.
Sabres probably came from sickles, like swords from knives. There are bronze age swords and sabres, curved like a sabre or in reverse. But both were used with shields. Probably Europeans were the first to use it as a single weapon, because it was used as a sidearm.
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+Academy of Historical Fencing I wonder if you'd be interested in doing a bowie video, as I more or less consider blades of 10 inches and up a modern day short sword. Though some techniques are knife like it is also used in sword like ways and I believe it to be the last vestiges of swordsmanship in modern combat.
It's a little far from my field of interest to be honest, and there are a lot of bowie specialists out there that would be much better suited to doing it. I'd generally not put anything under about 16" blade length into a sword category though. You can see the usage change substantially. The only things I see resembling any kind of sword combat today are the larger machetes fights, an some stick/umbrella defence stuff.
+Academy of Historical Fencing While true that there's great departures from the sword there's also many sword like uses such as glancing false edge cuts and parries. You also tend to see low thrusts with a hand planted on the ground similar to some rapier styles. Though it may not be a great point of interest for you I think it bares at least some sort of mention as it is clearly somewhat derived from swordsmanship and in a broader context encompasses the development of western bladed combat. As a student of the bowie knife I think you may be doing yourself a disservice as a swordsman to gloss the topic over, however that's just my opinion so take it as you will. Love your videos by the way.
I wouldn't say I quite gloss it over. I own one original, and a training version I use occasionally too. I would just leave a video on the subject to someone that specialises in it. The other point is time period. We focus on the Renaissance to the Napoleonic period. Though I have some swords beyond this period, it really isn't a focus. Sometimes you just have to tighten down your focus. As there is only so much time to research and practice. I might look at doing a little with it though.
Actually, the hilt of the original hungarian sabers were closer to the one you said that was called Persian... That is becouse the Turkic/Mongolic/Hunnic swords were almost exactly alike. For they were developed by the same groups. By the way: We did not "invent" it. We perfected it to the standards of the ERA. They were made to be useful against the enemies we faced. And the word saber comes from the word "szablya". Becouse we DID bring it to Western-Middle Europe.
Question: What about scimitars? Are they just another sort of sabre, or something else altogether? If they are the same, why are the two coolest things to call a sword for the same sword? The second question is not serious :).
+althaz77 Scimitar is an English term, and other European languages have similar terms for the same sword. The term is likely a bastardisation of the shamshir, or shamsher, a sword which I showed in this video. Whatever the origin of the term, scimitar refers to a broad range of middle eastern sabres which encompass the tulwar and shamshir as shown in this video, as well as others like the Kilij and Pulwar. So scimitar is just a catch all phrase for sabres from the middle east.
+David Craft Scimitar is a catch all European term for middle eastern sabres. Therefore the scimitar is a sabre, just of middle eastern origin. The term is falling from use now though as people use more accurate terms for the range of swords it covers, such as Tulwar, Pulwar, and Shamshir. For some accounts of combat which I assume is what you are after, I would check out this and it's sequel - www.goodreads.com/book/show/23873431-swordsmen-of-the-british-empire
Hungary?!!!! Seriously?!!! FYI saber(one handed curved single edged sword) have been invented in Central Asia, and been carried to Western Asia and eventually to Europe by Eurasian nomads(Huns, Avars, Kumans, Bulgars,Tatars, Pechenqs etc.) and later by Turkic Migration around 9th century. Not even Hungarian scholars themselves ever claimed that it had been invented in Hungary.
+rasnac It is more difficoult than that. The predecessors of the sabres were single edged straight swords, that appeared around in the 7th century a.d. in the eurasian steppes, and soon after-if no t at the same time- in Skandinavia (above mentiond "berserker sword"). They evolved into "messers" and falchions in western europe, and sabres in the steppes. In central Europe Hungary, Poland etc) sabres were pushed to the side in high middle ages in favour of streight blades, becouse of the cultural shift into christianity and with it to chivalric warfare (increasing quality and quantity of armour, thrust-to-the-gaps tactic, etc). Howewer they weren't forgotten becouse of numerous conficts with east european nomads. During the Ottoman Empire's extension warfare shifted back towards the more mobile, less armoured, light cavalry based eastern stile. In this period messers/ dussaks became more popular in german and chech territories and hungarians developed their own type of sabre on the base of the turkish kilij and the dussak. The later versions of this sabre type and the name "szablya" ,which ruffly means "cutter", were adopted in Poland when a Hungarian noble, Báthory István became king of Poland as Stefan Báthory 17th c.). In the 18th century polish and hungarian light cavalry became the model of the light cavalry troops of modern western armies: the hussars. They introduced the sabre in western eu. again, becouse in the 17th century european swordsmanship continued the shift towards thrusting swords.
+rasnac The truth is that the earliest sabres come from graves dated c.680 A.D.. These were Avar sabres. The Magyars came to Hungary already with sabres. I would think the Avars invented the sabre, because Central Asia only got sabres after the year 800.
+Chroma The ruling class themselves came from Central Asia, as probably the curved sword design. C. Asians pretty much touched every corner of EurAsian, Eastern Europe being one of them. Hungarians did not.
+Christopher Szabo did Magyars have connect to Avars?And I think this should be "earliest saber like sword" not "modern saber origin" because as this video mention, modern saber is just one type of European backsword."they both curve" doesn't means the elder one is "the father" of another
+Maierek Maszkos I suspect it came from Asian steppes during migration period. It's not like anybody has any hard evidence to support their view, so early examples from Hungary hold some water. Definitely Hungarian sabers were very influential later on, no matter if they originated there or elsewhere.
bakters fun fact we own a saber whuch was wielded by one of my ancestor's during WW1. Too bad he broke it and grinded the blade to a wakizashi sized blade. And some years ago the grip started to loose so my father fixed it with ducktape... That sword looks funny: a one handed sabre with almost no guard, a ducktaped hilt, 40 cm blade with a little rust on it... Best heritage ever :)
Maierek Maszkos Display it in an easy to see place, and speak about it with great pathos in your voice to unsuspecting visitors. Tell your family to rank their reactions, and discuss it in their presence for extra points. If they get offended, rank that too! ;-)
Scimitar is a catchall term in English for a whole family of sabres from the middle east and surrounding region, such as the Shamshir and Tulwar. Sabre is the overall term for a curved blade sword.
Swords in WW2 Japan were due to a revival. They certainly had fallen out of use. But a push to bring back the romanticised memory of the samurai and instil a warrior culture in the common soldier led to the revival of the sword.
+ShellPie The British heavy cavalry sword was specifically based on the Austrian cavalry Pallasch, and is almost identical to it, and the model which followed it. I think they have a clipped back edge which the British models didn't have as standard, but they are still very much the same fullered backsword blade.,
Well yes, but the Pallasch was used from the 17th throughout the 19th centuries - a lot of varieties are around. And the archetypical Pallasch I got to know as a cuirassier weapon is very much like this one: s747.photobucket.com/user/kelly1863/library/Walloon%20Pallasch?sort=2&page=1 There's buckets in the Graz armory
+ShellPie Yeh that's fair enough, I never said they were all backswords :-) Most years we go to an event in Vienna, and the heeresgeschichtliches museum there has an immense selection of wonderful Austrian Pallasch and sabres.
The ‘Chinese Sabers’ u are holding is not a genuine Chinese saber and only appear in the last part of Qing Dynasty mainly used by civilian. Due to lack of martial art, civilian forge a saber with heavier head to chop into imperial army armour easily. The true Chinese saber used by Imperial Chinese army of the Ming and Qing dynasty from 14th-19th century has a similar design of that tulwar u were holding. With round disk hand guard and longer handle for 2 handed use.
Napoleonic period British infantry sabres were anywhere between 9-15cm, due to the massive variety of blades. Post 1821 there was a little more standardisation, and 10-13cm is typical. You might want to check out this album where I have started logging a lot of data for swords I own - www.flickr.com/photos/155366595@N06/sets/72157690346713756
Academy of Historical Fencing thank you so much for answering my question, it does mean alot, would 7 3/8 inches or 19 centimeters be far too forward balanced to be controllable as a weapon for dueling? or in your experience where do you think is the best point of balance for a non cavalry sabre?
I really hate that last pattern of cavalry sword. Useful enough for a straight skewering but useless for any melee combat unless you just used the guard for a knuckleduster, imho.
Sorry I missed this first time around. Right now I just don't have experience or knowledge enough to talk about it. I have slowly over the last year begun to research the weapon and start to look into styles that use it. We do have one Chinese sword practitioner in the club. We aim to get some training versions made soon to have a play with, but it is very early days.
Persian style blades on British swords? Commonwealth or native British (officers I guess)? Really surprised that some British opted for such a curved blade. Still, different strokes for different folks
+Adam Smith No, for regular British officers. Deeply curved blades became popular in Britain in the late 18th century. This was largely influenced by hussars sabres of Hungary, and other similarly curved swords from Turkey, India, etc. The light cavalry pattern is in itself a deeply curved blade. The infantry pattern 1803 does often match it for curvature, but their was no official blade shape for 1803, and there are a fashion for lavishly curved blades, often inspired by the shamshir. Go to google images and search for '1803 pattern infantry officers sword', or 'flank officers sword' and see the massive variety you get in the results. Most people have the idea that the British used straight or very lightly curved blades, but that was not really the case until the 1820s. In the Napoleonic period, deeply curved blades were very popular for both infantry and cavalry, whilst straight was used as well of course.
Just wanted to touch on one part of the video that was only partially correct:
The THUMB RING on the Polish Sabre: The thumb ring was there (partially) for better grip, extra power, etc., etc.... But the main reason for the thumb ring was to allow the wielder to cut with the sabre using power from the wrist, as opposed to having to perform huge cuts from the shoulders. This allowed the wielder to be just as (if not more so) efficient, versatile, and deadly on foot as they are on horseback. The blade could now perform cuts with the speed and accuracy akin to that of a Cut-and-Thrust, as opposed to that of a Single-Hand Broadsword.
@PiotrHo4 ruclips.net/video/I1ZCtOqVkns/видео.html illetve ruclips.net/video/bRhT3Z8Tgr0/видео.html vagy ruclips.net/video/ok-dexQxfLw/видео.html ruclips.net/video/8GnRHHZ10B4/видео.html Atilla szablyája (atilla sabre) in austria ruclips.net/video/0_zM9PRL73I/видео.html
I found sabre to be hard to master and not very intuitive but very satisfying and versatile once I learned how to handle it.
Hard comparing to what? All weapons are hard to master :)
I dug up a Confederate Saber with my metal detector in Tennessee.
Great find!
13BRAVO REDLEG awesome
Lucky, XD
Cool shit. Once in a lifetime.
NICE!!
Sabers are the sexiest of swords.
McBobbish rapiers are kinda hot😳
damn curves
Yes and in second place goes to the Messer sword.
How can you say "one of the greatest British swords ever made" without saying "if", "however" and "context" 20 times in the same sentence?!
+Robert R Haha. True.
+Robert R Ah, did you find this channel from Scholagladiatoria as well? :D
Robert R yep!
Very nice presentation! I enjoyed it. I was suprised to hear you mention the early Hungarian sabres from the 9th and 10th Centuries. Those tend to be ignored by most people. There were earlier ones, used by the Avars, but those were found in Hungary too. And it's interesting to see how you describe various cultures using the sabre. Ta!
about the reason why a lot of chinese sabre are so short.
1)asian were smaller.
2) horse breeds in asia were smaller.
3) cavalry played different role at war in asia. small horse can't pack heavy impact like the european cavalry. thus they more rely on horse archery, lancer or mounted infantry. ride to place then dismount and fight with crossbow, spear. short sabre only act as the last defense when enemy get up in your face.
Straight facts.
Chinese cavalry used Miao Dao for centuries, which are much longer. The shorter broad sword that u are referring to were used by foot soldiers in conjunction w a shield
While the average Asian person was technically smaller than average Europeans, they weren't that much smaller because most Europeans were pretty small throughout most of their history too. Even so, I don't think Asian people were/are so much smaller that it would make them need significantly smaller swords. Keep in mind that most people, Asian and European, were not using swords as their primary weapons. Most people used either ranged weapons or some kind of polearm. In fact, as someone mentioned, many Chinese and Mongolian swords were fucking HUGE and heavy af...
Actually they typically were. There are some good statistics on the Japanese for example, who didn't really begin to close the gap with Europeans and Americans until the second half of the 20th century. Look to about 1600 for example and the average Japanese male was around 5 foot to 5'1" tall. When the average European was 5'6-5'8". That difference is very substantial. Countless documents and manuals from around the world have documented how sword size should be made in relation to the user. Now of course how they scale to the user varies depending on the culture, the master etc.
But if you wanted to take on example, a common method of recommending rapier blade length is that the pommel should reach the armpit when the sword is stood upright, and that would lead to a massive variation due to human height.
Yes there are some massive Chinese swords like the Miaodao, but you need to compare like for like. The equivalent large European two handers were far larger again.
Academy of Historical Fencing Idk if Japanese people get to be the standard "Asian". They were smaller than say, Mongolians or Northern Chinese who were closer to the size of Europeans. But then again, European sizes differed just as much as Asians, so idk lol
And yeah, everyone had a version of the BIG ASS SWORD. Even Japan had their version lol
When I played the game "Fable" as a kid I would always buy the title "Sabre."
Fitting that my first sword ended up being a sabre (didn't know it was one at the time.)
1796 was a good year for British swords.
+Timothy Heimbach Apart from the spadroon :-)
+Academy of Historical Fencing Has it ever been a good year for a spadroon :)
+Exploatores Late 19th century France?
I can't believe I didn't find this channel sooner. Awesome stuff man, makes me with I lived in England.
Actually saber originateted among turkic nomad tribes at the 7th century, they inhabited wide piece of land from ural mountains to black sea. Hungarians contacted with Khazarian khanate and other turkic states. Being in such relationships, hungarians have acquired many things from nomads including war atributes. In any case, if you compare hungarian sabers from IX century and IX centuries turkic or Rus sabers you will find them almost identical.
I must congratulate you on your pronunciation of szabla... that's probably the best I've heard from an English speaker.I think it's interesting that you discuss the sabre as an infantry weapon; it was certainly used so, and historical sabre fencing is still taught in places (both earlier medieval and the later, simplified Napoleonic versions). But I do think it's telling that the peoples most associated with the sabre (the Avars, the Magyars and Hungarians, the Poles, and the innumerable Turkic peoples) were all known for their horsemanship and cavalry. It can certainly be used on foot, and it certainly was used on foot, but I would assume that at least initially this was not its original purpose.
+VelmiVelkiZrut Thanks, we have a few Polish fencers in the club, it helps :-) It will of course not be very difficult to ever find out exactly why the sabre came about, but it is certainly true that the peoples who used in early on were mostly semi-nomadic and yes known for their horsemanship. Whether the sabre became what it was because of that horsemanship is a big question. Quite likely I should imagine, but it may just have been a more universal approach to a sword. I have seen quite a few interesting articles by swordsmiths explaining how sabres are simply easier and quicker to construct when forging.
Today it has more interest to us as an infantry weapon simply because horses are scarce compared to what they were, and because so many of us came from a background of infantry sword usage such as the rapier or longsword.
i think the horse is the main issue why some of our sabre are really short. size of the man isn't that much of a big factor. a lot of chinese infantry weapon were huge, 140cm~170cm miao dao like two handed sabre(120cm blade) were quiet common in northern frontier. pikes over 7meter were found in the mass grave. however our one handed sabre rarely has a blade longer than 80cm. i think the reason is on the smaller horse. i doubt the western heavy cavalry shock+ melee tactic will be practical with our 300kg horse.
The Mongols used heavy cavalry to great effect with smaller horses, even against Western armies and fully kitted knights with their massive chargers.
Have you seen those warriors from Hammerfell? They have curved swords! CURVED.... SWORDS!
Where did the Hungarians came from? What about the Bulgars, Avars before them. The sabre is a cavalry implement, and it came from the Eur-Asian steppes.
Hungarian from Ural mountains
So we have a very early history in the Ural mountains but around 3 thousand years ago we moved a few kms west and suddenly were in Europe. After this we migrated westward and in the late 9th century we settled in the Carpathian basin. Before that the Pannonian avars lived there, and the earliest find of the sabre is ~680 AD, but Greek sources mention them earlier, in the 5th century (earliest mention) and in later sources (8-9th century) complain about the semitic people stealing their weapon designs.
The sabre as a design is likely to be either Byzantine or Persian but straight swords were prevalent in almost all of the world until Ottoman influence kicked in in the 16-17th centuries.
They were Uralic peoples who have started their migration from the Ural mountains. They settled in with the Turkic Onogur Confederation(On-Ogur means ten tribes in Turkic). Some Greek fella recorded them as ungar deriving it from the Turkic tribes they were settling with. Thats how their names(known to the west) spreaded out. We still call them Macar though.
fassenkugel Sword of Attila is barely a saber
@fassenkugel sword or saber?
I can't remember if I told you already but at Féile na Gaiscígh, an Irish HEMA event which took place on the 30th of June, I finally got the opportunity to learn about sabre fencing as there was a beginner's workshop first thing on the first day and a second class on the last day and I was so happy to learn that it was just as fun as I was hoping it'd be.
Excellent, another convert!
Well I had been interested in doing some sabre training for a while so I suppose it was just a matter of time.
Thank you so very much for sharing your time and knowledge with us.
9:05
Sabers: swords so awesome and powerful that they can make wall photos tremble in fear! :P
What about something like a Windlass 1833 Dragoon Saber? Not that curved. Maybe a slight curve.
How did that come about?
Seems like they wanted some cutting capacity with a tip for thrusting.
If you are interessed in polish sabres, here's some that have been used in Poland over the milenium (list on the left): www.szablapolska.com/ . Also for sport sabres - they got a very slight curve
GdzieJestNemo can you guy in Poland buy sword
Thanks for this excellent overview! Really enjoyed it!
Besides accidents from 2WW which you've mentioned, the last appearance of szabla, or (as you barbarians would like to call it) sabre was the Battle of Komarów in 1920. It was the last battle when cavalry was used as such, and not as mounted infantry. Also it was quite important.
Battle of Komarów was probably the last battle between two large cavalry units, 2WW battles involved single cavalry regiments against infantry. But they were properly executed and most importantly successful cavalry charges, not some accidental involvement of guys who just happened to be sitting on horses.
It's actually called a Karabela .. meaning black bane in Turkish,
Hey! Can you tell me more about that Japanese sabre? I am familiar with the two-handed Kyu-Gunto for the Army, and the later Shin-Guntos, but not yet much else. I do like the hybrid east-west patterns. Is it an original, or a repro? Speaking of which, where do you get your antiques?
+Michael Eversberg II If the definition of a "curved sword" is used, the Katana is a sabre, the wakizashi is a (very short) sabre. So the Tachi and all others would be too.
Sebastian Szukalski
Yes, I have heard this, but I am referring to the Japanese blade with western style hilt. He holds one up at one point.
+Michael Eversberg II That's a type 32 (or 1899).
The type 25 (1892) also had a bowl-type guard.
www.japaneseswordindex.com/civilian.htm
+Sebastian Szukalski you forgot about the blade length some Katana count as a saber others as a cutlass. Wakizashi definitely counts as a cutlass. Tachi tend to be a little longer on average I think, so most would be counted as a saber.
+Michael Eversberg II Sebastian Szukalski has already given you a good answer on the sword type. Yes mine is original, though the blade has been chrome plated at some stage which makes it look rather modern. They were popular for a short time period and came in both infantry and cavalry blade lengths.
I get my antiques from many sources, usually local militaria and antiques dealers. Auction houses and militaria dealers/events are the best bet. The majority of dealers online are way overpriced, but there are a few good ones.
The sexiest of swords.
What's great about sabres is that the were the last widely used sword in a major war, WW1. Also a bunch of militaries still use it in parades.
That is true, and is a fascinating aspect of the last years of the sword in military use (extending to WW2 in smaller actions). Though the British didn't use sabres in WW1, having moved to a very different sort of blade, as well as lancers. Plenty of cavalry did make use of sabres in this time though.
I guess it was not having armour since guns made that obsolete. And what is the best sort of sword for cutting?
14:00-14:14 he was talking about Hussars as the light cavalry in Hungary and how it was their swords as opposed to the heavy cavalry straight swords. and when I heard this I remembered that the polish heavy cavalry used sabres as well
In other words: THE WINGED HUSSARS ARRIVED!!!!!!
Also the Hussar regiments for different nations in Western Europe came in to existence after the Ottman siege of Vienna in 1683. After seeing the charge of the hussars multiple country became interested setting up their own hussar untis that often carried Sabres
At 4:27 what is exact model of cutllas?
From which country, year, model??
It is very good looking sword!
Nice collection! 👍🏻
It is a British coastguard and customs cutlass with no exact model year, but used throughout the Victorian period. Mine has had the side bar cut off, seeminglu intentionally as they were often done for easy storage. It was made by Enfield.
@@AcademyofHistoricalFencing
Thank you! 👍🏻
It is very nice sword!
Depends on what definition you use. According to Britannica, "Sabre, also spelled saber, heavy military sword with a long cutting edge and, often, a curved blade. Most commonly a cavalry weapon, the sabre was derived from a Hungarian cavalry sword introduced from the Orient in the 18th century; also a light fencing weapon developed in Italy in the 19th century for duelling." So a straight saber is a thing.
By use of sabre is as it was used in British English through the period when it was in use as a weapon. Britannica, and most dictionaries are awful when it comes to technical descriptions, and even broader ones. For example in British English the sabre was by definition a curved blade, only the introduction of the sport sabre did it ever apply to something straight, and clearly a sport sabre is a very different animal to a military sabre. To call them heavy is a joke by people who know nothing about them, and even the "commonly a cavalry weapon" causes confusion, leading people to believe they were really only for that purpose. "Straight sabre" is not a thing in British English, though it is in American English, and also in French. Those languages have slightly different definitions.
Would you consider the Zombie Tools' D'Capitan saber to be a saber or a cutlass? The 27" blade would put it in the cutlass class but it's width and shape put it in the saber class.
some lessons from real academic researches (!);
1-Sabre-Saber-Szabla word came from turkic khipcak origin which "sabala"
2-curved shamshir swords created by Seljuk Turks which lived at İran.
3-Real Persian Shamshir was Straight swords not curved.
4-The Karabela sword which known as Polish Sabre orginally came from Ottoman (14th century), Poles start to use Sabre at 16th century.
5-Memalukes was Turkic slave soldiers then became Sultans thats why memaluke swords also came from Turkic origin.
Sabers certainly originate from late ancient persia, from the Hungarian Onogur confederation or the turks. Ethimology doesnt really help in determining weather it originated with the Turks and the Hungarians adopted it along with agriculture, or the Hungarians brought the design from Siberia, as the name derives from absolutely basic words in both languages.
Szab in hungarian means to cut. Szablya means cutter.
@@ineednochannelyoutube5384 Pontosan.
10/10 best video on sabres ever found
Wondering if you guys could help. Hanger sword, mortuary sword, backsword, schiavona, sidesword. Aside from the schiavona being nominally Italian, what in the world is the difference between these types of swords?
+Robert Weston A hanger is a shortsword, typically a short sabre or short backsword. A cutlass is the same sword, and the terms were often used interchangeably.
A Mortuary sword is a uniquely English type of basket hilt that had faces detailed on the guard, later Charles I after his death. They had both back edge and double edged blades.
A backsword is just a single edged sword. Many early falchions looked like this, as well as a great many basket hilted swords.
Sidesword is a sword which is a hybrid between medieval arming sword and the renaissance rapier. In between the two in length, it focuses on more thrust work than many arming swords would, but has a stronger cut than the rapier, and was commonly used in civilian wear and also military service. They are characterised by a protective hilt that allows the index finger to wrap over the guard like you would a rapier,
A Schiavona is a unique style of basket hilt that rose from Italy to become popular throughout Europe. It typically has a long double, or single edged blade, a cats head pommel, a unique and characteristic basket shape and usually a thumb ring too (as found on many Polish sabres for example)
Loving the sudden shift to sabers 'round here!
If you define the saber as a principally military weapon, then you had the wrong Chinese sword. The Ox Tail saber was a civilian weapon from the 19th century and never used as military issue.
The most common was the willow leaf saber (Liuye dao) which looked very mush like a European saber with a modest curve, disk guard and single handed grip. Blade length was normally between 28-32 inch; shorter for foot soldiers, longer for mounted troops.
Naturally, civilian blades could be much shorter for defensive use in tight areas where their may not be room to swing a longer blade.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liuyedao
I’d love more information on the saber blades, types of points and tips, false edge types and more. I’m confused on if the entire blade is sharp or the string of the blade is left dull. I’d like to know more on the difference between hatchet point, spear point, and what others there might be.
What's a good cheap metal training sabre? I know you found flaws with the hanwei hutton guard, but what if one made their own guard for this sword out of mild steel plate? Just a thought.
18:40 that's starting to look more practical. Maybe not as menacing or effective as the napoleonics, but those lighter ones look a lot more wieldly. Thanks for the overview.
i like 1796 a lot also because the combination of deep curve and false edge. the false edge cut can go around blade or guard and hits wrist and arm like a bird's beak.
What a great, informative video, I subscribed !
While I'm all for giving eastern Europe more exposure, Hungary almost certainly didn't originate the saber, just brought it to Europe. When talking about early Hungary, it was pretty much magyar tribes that brought it in, and that means east of Hungary. If I had to pinpoint an origin, I'd go for northern China - they used a form of dao during Three Kingdoms period that was straight and started to put a curve on it sometime after it.
+MartinGreywolf Magyar/Hungary are used interchangeably today as far as geography goes. With their semi-nomadic lifestyle, and many other peoples around them, it may be hard to ever place a definite area as to where they came from. I would be interested to see more information on the development of Chinese sabres. I have seen a lot of evidence for Hungary (Magyar tribes) being the source, as well as peoples from Turkey and the surrounding area. But so often the information on Chinese blades is vague everywhere I look, for that period at least.
China most likely was NOT the origin of the saber. China from its early history up to the Song Dynasty did have backswords, but it seems that proper sabers that are curved seem to come in during the Yuan Dynasty when the Mongols invaded. The most likely "origin" of the saber seems to be Central Asian nomads of various types (Mongols, Turks, Magyars, etc.). With that said though, it seems likely that adding a curve to a single-edged sword is something that has developed independently across multiple parts of the world. For example, the transition from chokuto (a backsword) to tachi in Japan seems to have been done independently from China and the outside world and may have been partially influenced by swords belonging to northern Japan's native peoples, the Emishi, who developed curved short swords (i.e. warabite-to) without any outside influence.
+Academy of Historical Fencing
Here's some websites with some info on Chinese swords and sabers if you're interested:
thomaschen.freewebspace.com/index.html
chineseswords.freewebspace.com/about.html
greatmingmilitary.blogspot.com/search/label/sword
Academy of Historical Fencing
Well, I'd have to disagree a bit about using Magyar and Hungary interchangeably to a degree. You are correct that Hungary today is mostly populated by Magyars (for all intents and purposes), so there's little distinction.
However, as soon as we start talking about Hungary as in Kingdom of Hungary (or Austro-Hungarian Empire), they aren't interchangeable at all, especially if we talk about early history of it. While nobility did swiftly intermarry between themselves, people they ruled retained their culture and languages (well, aside from the christian conversion thing), to a point where foreign travelers gave specific names to certain parts of it based on ethnicity - there were little sabers and composite bows in the northern parts.
Similar thing to this is claiming that Scotland and Wales are part of England.
great vid so many great sabres. what types of cutlass and hanger swords are there. trying find any online that aren't cheap inaccurate is impossible.
+Tyler Lalonde Thanks. Are you after examples just to look at or to buy? Military Heritage do at least one, the straight bladed 1804 British pattern. That one as an original is worth a lot because of its Napoleonic heritage, others are much cheaper. You can often get 19th century cutlass for £70-120. Let me know what you are after and I can send links.
Academy of Historical Fencing hangers and cutlass. I've got a couple books with examples but there's only a few.
+Tyler Lalonde British Napoleonic cutlass -
www.antiqueswordsonline.com/british-1804-pattern-naval-cutlass/
This document - www.cutandparry.com/86_tuuite_naval.pdf
This book - www.amazon.co.uk/British-Naval-Swords-Swordsmanship-McGrath/dp/184832135X
This book has a lot of hangers - www.amazon.com/British-Military-Swords-Volume-Standing/dp/1931464618
1900 pattern cutlass for sale at top of page - www.blunderbuss-antiques.co.uk/shop.php
Bristol police practicing with the Police regulation cutlass/hanger - c1.staticflickr.com/3/2071/2049070157_03e1019c91_b.jpg
Thanks
Could you make a video specifically for hangers and cutlasses? As in how they would be used, which period where they mostly used during? Thanks for the videos by the way 🙂
+TheKrodgib Yes I certainly will do. Though very briefly I can tell you they were taught according to the same methods as the sabre, only some manuals recommend not striking towards the leg because of its short reach. I will get a video done soon to cover it in more detail.
Don't forget the Byzantine paramerion. Also appeared around the same time as the Hungarian weapons. Mentioned in several military treatises, including the Taktika of Leo VI. People who say that it wasn't curved at this point deny blatant evidence.
Wasent paramerion curved the other way?
Ambarenya13 yeah I’m
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Does the concept of "noble war" exist in military sabre (British or otherwise) or is it replaced entirely by the lunge and recover principle? From what I've seen there's little to no winding at all in sabre and fighters prefer to retreat or strike a different cut if they fail to connect.
+Ranziel1 There are a couple of techniques that are essentially winding, but they are comparatively rare. With the dexterity, speed and rotational elements of a sabre, they are rarely useful.
I would love to learn to spar with a Persian shamshir, but they seem to be really rare online as I can't even seem to find a reliable one for sparring. Do you know where a good place to look would be?
It's true that almost nobody makes them. it would be worth asking Dr. Manouchehr Moshtagh Khorasani, who specialises in Persian martial arts. I know he has aluminium ones made at least.
Besides that, I just had a shamshir bladed British infantry sabre made (as they were popular around 1800), by Wjocech Szanek in Poland. He will make you one, but it will cost around 400 euros.
Hard to believe what is basically a giant knife, appeared or originated in Hungary, so late, when probably most tribes that used knives in history, reached the conclusion of making a bigger one. From persians, to the intricate and ancient egyptian khopesh, ancient greece too, and so on...
+Shaka12 Yeah... his not so convincing saber origin is quite eurocentric indeed.
It probably has it's actual origins, like modern history is finding more and more things to have had, in several places at a time, and not one country. I'd guess around middle-east, western asia and eastern europe.
+Shaka12 You can't make them too long with out first developing quite good metalurgy
Patrurjonte Hum...anyone who is interested in history? I think that's pretty much what history is, what happened and where things originated.
Patrurjonte And there's pretty much no arguing where any type of violin originated, violin history is pretty mapped out.
I'd put the most likely origins to either the Byzantine or the Persian Empire. The byzantine sources mention the παραμήριον (sabre) first in history. The first finds of sabres were in the Carpathian Basin however.
You should check byzantine parameroion or romphaia
GOOOOOOOOD. Remember the paramerion!!!
i have a 1796 L/C sabre that is 30 1/2' long but the knuckle bow seems thinner than yours, would you consider this a sabre or a hanger?
It may well be an infantry officers sword. They were typically based on the 1796 light cav, but made a little smaller and lighter. It is still a sabre. In fact around 30" is very typical for British infantry sabres of the late 18th and early 19th century. You could also have a cut down cavalry sword. I'd need to see pictures. But at that length and a thinner guard, very much suggest infantry officer.
The dividing line between hanger and sabre is a blurry one, but its somewhere around 29".
You will find some stats on some of the swords I own here -
www.flickr.com/photos/155366595@N06/albums/72157690346713756
wow that heavy cavalry sword is a beast, nice condition blade, sweet
The true sabre was developed in Turkic Central Asia in the 9th century, or possibly earlier. All sabres are descended from the earliest Central Asian forms, being introduced into other areas through invasion by, and other interactions with, peoples originating on the Eurasian steppes, such as the Bulgars, Magyars and various Turkic peoples.
Liked this very informative video, and learned a lot. You might want to be a little more aware of where the edge of the screen is when showing swords, though. A lot of the sword you're showing spends a lot of time off-camera. :-)
So I'm really interested in single edged swords and I'd love to learn to properly use a saber, however the only armed martial arts I could learn in my area are kendo and escrima, so not what I'm looking for at all. Is there a way to train on your own? I know it's obviously not the same as having someone teach you all the techniques but there's gotta be something I can do...
+Light Hawk Solo wise there are some things you can do, but they are very limited. Check out these two videos for more on the subject -
ruclips.net/video/vuAC8UmFX0k/видео.html
ruclips.net/video/tIgVh5yA4B0/видео.html
Ok, thanks a lot
I wish I had the opportunity to train in saber.
Look for a school that does it. If you can't find one, consider finding some like minded people and start a study group. It's one of the easiest weapons to get started with. Lots of people have started from the same position.
@PiotrHo4 ruclips.net/video/I1ZCtOqVkns/видео.html illetve ruclips.net/video/bRhT3Z8Tgr0/видео.html vagy ruclips.net/video/ok-dexQxfLw/видео.html ruclips.net/video/8GnRHHZ10B4/видео.html Atilla szablyája (atilla sabre) in austria ruclips.net/video/0_zM9PRL73I/видео.html
Also how can I find the Iranian sabre and buckler? what channels have you found?
Try the Razmafzar channel.
+Tyler Lalonde As masterorca said. Dr. Khorasani's is a passionate and dedicated researcher and practitioner of those arts, definitely check out his channel.
ruclips.net/channel/UCEkddFkwPzt5q_Z6F23sNUQ
Quite a few talwars are fitted with a knuckle bow for protection, as well as some shamshir.
+Al M Indeed they are. Did I not mention that in the video? So much to talk about in a broad overview that I might have missed it.
What is the ideal weight for a saber? Not including cavalry sabers. Thanks
It can vary a fair bit depending on the period and style. But the typical range (not including cavalry) is 700g-900g. What is ideal depends on the type of guard, length of blade, and how you intend to use it. For example, Napoleonic British infantry sabres, the ideal is around 750-800g. For post 1821 where the guards were more developed, and blades a little longer, 820-900,
Overall very interesting and comprehensive video, just one question. At around 2:40 you say that the 1796 pattern sabre is considered the best swords ever made. I have a sort of issue with statements like that. Why is it THE best sword? If it was, why didn't they just keep it forever, since it was the best anyway? I always thought every sword was best for its specific purpose.
'Considered to be one of the best if not the best pattern sword ever made'. I was merely mentioning that reputation because it speaks volumes to how well it was considered in its day and still is today, not that I think it is the best sword, merely that it is an exceptional one.
Yes context is everything, but a sword is best judged on how good it is for the job it was intended or was used, and the 1796 LC excelled as a light cavalry sword, as opposed to many other British patterns that were plagued with reports of faults and design flaws, many of which were justified. Throughout the 19th century British doctrine turned more towards light tipped swords that were better suited to thrusting, whilst still being good as at cutting, but many believe the compromise was a compromise too far. Being not particularly great at either.
In fact the British Indian cavalry were still using the type for a hundred years longer after the British regulars adopted new patterns. Not every change is for the best :-)
So no, not the best sword, but one of the best certainly.
Academy of Historical Fencing Thank you very much for clearing it up! I didn't mean to nitpick, it just struck me as an odd thing to say, coming from someone with your expertise in the matter. Makes much more sense with that elaborate answer, of course without wanting to dive into the thrust vs cut discussion. So thanks again, I appreciate it!
Great video as always.
Great info as always :)
Pay attention to the hardness of blade, it is very important and could influence how you use the weapon.
I am not convinced that is always is an important factor as far as use goes. There is plenty of evidence of very hard and razor sharp Indian blades facing off against not so sharp and softer British sabres in the 19th century. There is no suggestion of how it changed their use. Though there is evidence that the wounds caused were slightly different, from deep slicing to more blunt force trauma.
A very hard blade on a sabre could cause you to try and avoid certain dead parries due to brittleness, maybe. But I doubt it.
overhardened blade could easily break in two (over another one that is not so hard) from a strong hit...
Yes but I have never seen any sabres that are hardened to that point, not from any culture. I've not put the Japanese military sabres into test cutting so perhaps those might be.
You say in the video that one of the advantages of a curved blade is its usability in confined quarters because of how it curves around the body.
Certainly it could be expected that naval officers would often find themselves using their swords in very confined quarters belowdecks - so why do you figure both the 1805 and 1827 RN officer's swords (as well as 1804 pattern cutlass, and the 1845 very nearly so) had a completely straight blade?
+Michal Lukáč 1805 pattern - it is a spadroon, and like the 1796 infantry spadroon, it was assumed that the officers wearing them would likely never have to fight with them. At this time period you will find constant reference to officers buying sabres, based on the 1803 or pre/non regulation similar models, just as many army officers were doing. You will often find these in museums and auction houses.
1827 model - this comes from a period of standardisation where all services were essentially using a derivative of the same pattern. Look to infantry, cavalry and navy at this time and they are all essentially the same weapon. Fashion, standardisation, an approach to a more universal weapon, an attempt to make a perfect hybrid cut and thrust sabre. All of these reasons are major factors.
+Academy of Historical Fencing Are you positive about that? None of the examples of the 1805 I saw had spadroon blades, they were all a straight-edge backsword (much like the later infantry models) with a stirrup hilt. One was even pipe-backed. And the 1827 is at most as curved as the 1845 infantry model.
+Michal Lukáč That is what the British spadroon blade is. A light, straight, single edge backsword blade. Spadroons can have a variety of blade types, and hilt types. It is simply a lightweight, short straight sword for use on foot. The 1805 was just a new fashion/pattern version of the great many simple spadroons that came before it for both infantry and naval use in the 18th century, such as the five ball spadroon.
What is your opinion of the thumb ring? Generally useful or not?
+Tom Rundell I find them quite interesting. Certainly they reduce the chance of slipping or losing grip, and they can increase power in some actions. However they can feel a little awkward in some actions. I have only used them briefly with sabres though so need to do a little more before coming to a more thorough conclusion. I have used them with basket hilts and that is my opinion so far.
I have been fighting with a 101 cm one handed saber, as was wondering if you would recommend any particular literature to study with it. Thanks.
+Alex Hutchins What sort of hilt type does it have in terms of protection and how much curvature? Sounds like you probably have something well suited to the Infantry Sword Exercise manual from Henry Angelo. The art of defence on foot by Roworth is what we most study from, and it is perfectly applicable to a range of sabres.
+Academy of Historical Fencing It has a double side ring guard with s-shaped quillons and about an inch of deflection over the length of the blade.
+Alex Hutchins Sounds like you might have something rather earlier period to around the 16th century. Any chance you could show me a picture? Or find an image of something similar online?
+Academy of Historical Fencing This is the same as mine, except mine does not have the piecework (www.alcheminc.com/AguirreS2.jpg). I fence through the S.C.A. so I am looking for a mid 16th century style more so. Not that it really matters.
+Alex Hutchins With that style of sword I would be inclined to stick with sidesword type Bolognese swordsmanship like Marozzo or Dall'agocchie. It will work perfectly for those systems. If you specifically wanted something with a curved blade, well there are very few early resources on sabre. You could consider look at Richard Marsden's Polish sabre book which tries to reconstruct 17th century Polish sabre by merging later systems with earlier related weapons. Or check out Joachim Meyers dussack possibly.
Would you consider the German Kriegsmesser (it has a bunch of names but War Knife seems most appropriate), and its one handed cousin the to be precursors to the Sabre? And would you ever do a video on them?
+sf90001 They came about a lot later than the sabre in Eastern Europe, the middle east and the far east, but they may well be one of the ways in which such swords gained in popularity in Northern Europe yes.
I will indeed put the subject on my list of videos to make.
That's very interesting, I look forward to seeing the video! And since Blackfencer makes practice Messers maybe some dueling videos too? If that's not to much to hope for.
+sf90001 We don't have any of the BF messers. Personally they are not my kind of thing. But I have ordered a storta from them, which uses the same blade and is essentially a slightly later period type of falchion.
That's alright, still looking forward to the video.
What is the point of balance and total weight on that 1796 heavy cavalry sword?
+Christopher Eppig PoB 8", 2.6lbs total.
+Academy of Historical Fencing Wow, that's a beast! Thanks for the response!
Why did they move from the curved saber to the straighter stabbing swords?
It's a very complex topic. For a start straight swords were not inherently stabbing swords. Many straight swords were intended more for the cut in fact. For example the 1796 light and heavy cavalry swords came out the same year, both intended as heavy cutting swords, but one very curved and the other straight. The role of the users played a part here, with light cavalry intended for haraessing and scout work, and the heavies a blunt instrument.
Ultimately the driving force late on was a constant argument between which was best, cut or thrust, and most armies settled in the middle with a lightly curved blade well suited to both cut and thrust. The move towards very heavily thrust orientated blades like the 1892 infantry and 1908 trooper of course came very late, as swords were really in their last few years of active service, and this just came from a doctrine of through that followed the point being best in most situations, which isn't neccessarily right of course, but the feeling of the day by those most heavily involved with sword patterns.
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So what's the difference between a Pallasch and a backsword? Is the first one just bigger?
+edi It's not about size. However a Pallasch can have a single or double edged blade. In English, the the time period of the sabre, the equivalent term for a pallasch would be broadsword, which can be single or double, like the Scots broadsword. But even that term is not exact, as often sabres were called broadswords sometimes. A backsword is of course, by definition, always single edged.
I hope ScholaG agrees otherwise there'll be a 20 min video coming on more intricacies of the sword definitions ;)
but we have sabers ( curved swords very similar to a polish saber ) in our museums that dates to 7th century ( arab/north african ), it was also a cavalry sword, can anyone care to explain the diff?
Thank you, the video is amazing, it could be improved by adding a picture of armed soldier when mentioning each kind of saber :)
I had a heated discussion on that topic. Would you say that a Sabre is a type of sword or that both swords and Sabres are a type of blade?
Sabre is a type of sword. Sword is an umbrella term.
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But why not use rapier for unarmored combat? Isn’t rapier superior to sabre? And why revert to straight blade after using curved sabres?
So, why did the brits transition from curved blades to straight blades?
+kiran hill Well it's not quite true that they did. If you look to the Napoleonic era, it is a complete mix of completely straight blades (heavy cav, spadroon, navy officer, cutlass), to heavily curved (1803 infantry, light cav and flank officer swords).
In the 1820's, all of the above moved to lightly curved blades, which clearly are a compromise between the two, and that is largely the reason. A desire to have a blade that excels at both cut and thrust. Like most compromises though, it rarely works out that way.
Move onwards towards the later 19th century when they finally went straight for most swords - this was a new philosophy, that the point was better than the edge. It was researched and found that the point was more likely to kill than the edge, something the French relied on in the Napoleonic era.
This doctrine of course is far from perfect.
Great video!!!
I don't know if you know, but your Japanese cavalry troopers 1899 sabre looks actually like the Chinese version of the Japanese design which they copied. The original Japanese sabres had wood on the handle where your piece has this green part, which should be a plastic. Another indication would be the scabbard. If it has 2 rings to hang it, its most likely the Chinese army version.
Just so you know.
+tae1000esd Yep I did, but it confuses matters considerably to explain that in such a broad overview video. Well spotted though.
+Academy of Historical Fencing Yep i know it doesnt really give information for the viewer, but I just wanted to give you more information in case you didn't know. But one more question, did you handle the real Japanese version of the sabre? I have the Chinese version myself and I was wondering if the original has its pob so far away from the guard. I use my Chinese version as my heavy training sabre and you know what you have done after a intense training :)
Would you consider the kopis, yatağan, etc. to be sabers as well? They are technically curved backswords.
No I would not. Because I would define a sabre as a curved blade, and a kopis, falcate etc as a recurve blade. Despite them being curved, the curve in the opposite direction creates a very different dynamic.
@PiotrHo4 ruclips.net/video/I1ZCtOqVkns/видео.html illetve ruclips.net/video/bRhT3Z8Tgr0/видео.html vagy ruclips.net/video/ok-dexQxfLw/видео.html ruclips.net/video/8GnRHHZ10B4/видео.html Atilla szablyája (atilla sabre) in austria ruclips.net/video/0_zM9PRL73I/видео.html
5:30 and 16:30 What kind of blade is it, who made it? Thank you
Both original antiques. The first is a British coastguard and customs cutlass made by Enfield around 1870. The second is a Type 32 gunto, a Japanese design of military sabre, the one shown is a period Chinese version who also adopted the sword.
Thank You man
I dont understand the thematic comparisons people sometimes make when really *themes* dont quite apply to the reality - I understand that a pallasch is slower in the hand than a lighter curved sword is but to then say that because of that a pallasch is less suitable for light cavalry or that a curved sword is more suitable for light cavalry because light cavalry are tactically a light and fast force doesnt really makes sense - they are linked thematically but who is to say that you need light and fast swords for a tactically or operationally light attack force?
+hotsteamypudding For one, that was the philosophy for the time by the army, whether we agree or not is another matter. Like the 1908 was believed to be the greatest cavalry sword ever designed by those creating military doctrine of the time.
Academy of Historical Fencing
oh sure - I was just disagreeing with their philosophy. Sadly this kind of thematic logic hasn't gone away.
really good
Sabres probably came from sickles, like swords from knives. There are bronze age swords and sabres, curved like a sabre or in reverse. But both were used with shields. Probably Europeans were the first to use it as a single weapon, because it was used as a sidearm.
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Do large confederate D guard bowies class as a cutlass? I know bowies are very derivative of saber and cutlass in general.
Some of the largest examples would fit into the cutlass/hanger range definitely.
+Academy of Historical Fencing
I wonder if you'd be interested in doing a bowie video, as I more or less consider blades of 10 inches and up a modern day short sword. Though some techniques are knife like it is also used in sword like ways and I believe it to be the last vestiges of swordsmanship in modern combat.
It's a little far from my field of interest to be honest, and there are a lot of bowie specialists out there that would be much better suited to doing it. I'd generally not put anything under about 16" blade length into a sword category though. You can see the usage change substantially.
The only things I see resembling any kind of sword combat today are the larger machetes fights, an some stick/umbrella defence stuff.
+Academy of Historical Fencing
While true that there's great departures from the sword there's also many sword like uses such as glancing false edge cuts and parries. You also tend to see low thrusts with a hand planted on the ground similar to some rapier styles. Though it may not be a great point of interest for you I think it bares at least some sort of mention as it is clearly somewhat derived from swordsmanship and in a broader context encompasses the development of western bladed combat. As a student of the bowie knife I think you may be doing yourself a disservice as a swordsman to gloss the topic over, however that's just my opinion so take it as you will.
Love your videos by the way.
I wouldn't say I quite gloss it over. I own one original, and a training version I use occasionally too. I would just leave a video on the subject to someone that specialises in it.
The other point is time period. We focus on the Renaissance to the Napoleonic period. Though I have some swords beyond this period, it really isn't a focus. Sometimes you just have to tighten down your focus. As there is only so much time to research and practice.
I might look at doing a little with it though.
Actually, the hilt of the original hungarian sabers were closer to the one you said that was called Persian...
That is becouse the Turkic/Mongolic/Hunnic swords were almost exactly alike. For they were developed by the same groups.
By the way:
We did not "invent" it.
We perfected it to the standards of the ERA. They were made to be useful against the enemies we faced. And the word saber comes from the word "szablya".
Becouse we DID bring it to Western-Middle Europe.
Question: What about scimitars? Are they just another sort of sabre, or something else altogether?
If they are the same, why are the two coolest things to call a sword for the same sword?
The second question is not serious :).
+althaz77 Scimitar is an English term, and other European languages have similar terms for the same sword. The term is likely a bastardisation of the shamshir, or shamsher, a sword which I showed in this video. Whatever the origin of the term, scimitar refers to a broad range of middle eastern sabres which encompass the tulwar and shamshir as shown in this video, as well as others like the Kilij and Pulwar. So scimitar is just a catch all phrase for sabres from the middle east.
I was wondering, what would be the difference between a sabre and a scimitar?
Also would you be able to recommend any reading materials, specifically in regards to mid 18th (like seven years war era) century sabre fighting.
+David Craft Scimitar is a catch all European term for middle eastern sabres. Therefore the scimitar is a sabre, just of middle eastern origin. The term is falling from use now though as people use more accurate terms for the range of swords it covers, such as Tulwar, Pulwar, and Shamshir.
For some accounts of combat which I assume is what you are after, I would check out this and it's sequel -
www.goodreads.com/book/show/23873431-swordsmen-of-the-british-empire
+Academy of Historical Fencing thanks!
Hungary?!!!! Seriously?!!! FYI saber(one handed curved single edged sword) have been invented in Central Asia, and been carried to Western Asia and eventually to Europe by Eurasian nomads(Huns, Avars, Kumans, Bulgars,Tatars, Pechenqs etc.) and later by Turkic Migration around 9th century. Not even Hungarian scholars themselves ever claimed that it had been invented in Hungary.
+rasnac
It is more difficoult than that. The predecessors of the sabres were single edged straight swords, that appeared around in the 7th century a.d. in the eurasian steppes, and soon after-if no t at the same time- in Skandinavia (above mentiond "berserker sword"). They evolved into "messers" and falchions in western europe, and sabres in the steppes. In central Europe Hungary, Poland etc) sabres were pushed to the side in high middle ages in favour of streight blades, becouse of the cultural shift into christianity and with it to chivalric warfare (increasing quality and quantity of armour, thrust-to-the-gaps tactic, etc). Howewer they weren't forgotten becouse of numerous conficts with east european nomads. During the Ottoman Empire's extension warfare shifted back towards the more mobile, less armoured, light cavalry based eastern stile. In this period messers/ dussaks became more popular in german and chech territories and hungarians developed their own type of sabre on the base of the turkish kilij and the dussak. The later versions of this sabre type and the name "szablya" ,which ruffly means "cutter", were adopted in Poland when a Hungarian noble, Báthory István became king of Poland as Stefan Báthory 17th c.). In the 18th century polish and hungarian light cavalry became the model of the light cavalry troops of modern western armies: the hussars. They introduced the sabre in western eu. again, becouse in the 17th century european swordsmanship continued the shift towards thrusting swords.
+rasnac Hungarians did invent sabers.
+rasnac The truth is that the earliest sabres come from graves dated c.680 A.D.. These were Avar sabres. The Magyars came to Hungary already with sabres. I would think the Avars invented the sabre, because Central Asia only got sabres after the year 800.
+Chroma The ruling class themselves came from Central Asia, as probably the curved sword design.
C. Asians pretty much touched every corner of EurAsian, Eastern Europe being one of them. Hungarians did not.
+Christopher Szabo did Magyars have connect to Avars?And I think this should be "earliest saber like sword" not "modern saber origin" because as this video mention, modern saber is just one type of European backsword."they both curve" doesn't means the elder one is "the father" of another
I'd argue the turko-mongol sabre was the first.
I didn't know sabres came from Hungary, I'm proud of my homeland.
+Maierek Maszkos I suspect it came from Asian steppes during migration period. It's not like anybody has any hard evidence to support their view, so early examples from Hungary hold some water.
Definitely Hungarian sabers were very influential later on, no matter if they originated there or elsewhere.
bakters fun fact we own a saber whuch was wielded by one of my ancestor's during WW1. Too bad he broke it and grinded the blade to a wakizashi sized blade. And some years ago the grip started to loose so my father fixed it with ducktape... That sword looks funny: a one handed sabre with almost no guard, a ducktaped hilt, 40 cm blade with a little rust on it... Best heritage ever :)
Maierek Maszkos Display it in an easy to see place, and speak about it with great pathos in your voice to unsuspecting visitors. Tell your family to rank their reactions, and discuss it in their presence for extra points. If they get offended, rank that too! ;-)
***** as far as i know it was shortend to be able to use as a household tool after the war.
bakters i am not offended so easily, u should try harder
forget entirely about poland?
strange - is not it? Poles can do lectures about saber
I need to know how to reheat plz...
What's the diffrence between a Sabre and a Scimitar???
Scimitar is a catchall term in English for a whole family of sabres from the middle east and surrounding region, such as the Shamshir and Tulwar. Sabre is the overall term for a curved blade sword.
Thank you. :)
Pleased I found the channel, good stuff! - sub'd
Why you don't show us polish karabella saber?
+Munchanse Because I don't have one! As much as I would like to own every sabre in the world, I don't :-)
maybe this wouldnt be classified as sabres but swords certainly did not fallout in the philippines, china or especially japan during WW2
Swords in WW2 Japan were due to a revival. They certainly had fallen out of use. But a push to bring back the romanticised memory of the samurai and instil a warrior culture in the common soldier led to the revival of the sword.
Most austrian Pallaschs I've seen were double edged though...blade wise they are more like schiavonas than backswords
+ShellPie The British heavy cavalry sword was specifically based on the Austrian cavalry Pallasch, and is almost identical to it, and the model which followed it. I think they have a clipped back edge which the British models didn't have as standard, but they are still very much the same fullered backsword blade.,
Well yes, but the Pallasch was used from the 17th throughout the 19th centuries - a lot of varieties are around. And the archetypical Pallasch I got to know as a cuirassier weapon is very much like this one: s747.photobucket.com/user/kelly1863/library/Walloon%20Pallasch?sort=2&page=1
There's buckets in the Graz armory
+ShellPie Yeh that's fair enough, I never said they were all backswords :-) Most years we go to an event in Vienna, and the heeresgeschichtliches museum there has an immense selection of wonderful Austrian Pallasch and sabres.
True, those are nice ones^^
Pay a visit to Graz next time, it's like 2 hours by train and totally worth it
www.museum-joanneum.at/en/styrian-armoury
+ShellPie Looks nice. Not been there yet. I will make an effort to this year or next.
The ‘Chinese Sabers’ u are holding is not a genuine Chinese saber and only appear in the last part of Qing Dynasty mainly used by civilian. Due to lack of martial art, civilian forge a saber with heavier head to chop into imperial army armour easily.
The true Chinese saber used by Imperial Chinese army of the Ming and Qing dynasty from 14th-19th century has a similar design of that tulwar u were holding. With round disk hand guard and longer handle for 2 handed use.
does anyone know what the average point of balance on infantry sabres?
Napoleonic period British infantry sabres were anywhere between 9-15cm, due to the massive variety of blades. Post 1821 there was a little more standardisation, and 10-13cm is typical. You might want to check out this album where I have started logging a lot of data for swords I own -
www.flickr.com/photos/155366595@N06/sets/72157690346713756
Academy of Historical Fencing thank you so much for answering my question, it does mean alot, would 7 3/8 inches or 19 centimeters be far too forward balanced to be controllable as a weapon for dueling? or in your experience where do you think is the best point of balance for a non cavalry sabre?
I really hate that last pattern of cavalry sword. Useful enough for a straight skewering but useless for any melee combat unless you just used the guard for a knuckleduster, imho.
+Al M Specifically, the 1908. Glorified BBQ spit.
+Al M I am really not a fan either. I think it's one of the ugliest swords ever designed, and also a deeply flawed one.
can u pls do some talking bout the jian :) and ty for this channel very insightfull
Sorry I missed this first time around. Right now I just don't have experience or knowledge enough to talk about it. I have slowly over the last year begun to research the weapon and start to look into styles that use it. We do have one Chinese sword practitioner in the club. We aim to get some training versions made soon to have a play with, but it is very early days.
I have one. For some reason it’s heavier than it looks
Persian style blades on British swords? Commonwealth or native British (officers I guess)? Really surprised that some British opted for such a curved blade. Still, different strokes for different folks
+Adam Smith No, for regular British officers. Deeply curved blades became popular in Britain in the late 18th century. This was largely influenced by hussars sabres of Hungary, and other similarly curved swords from Turkey, India, etc. The light cavalry pattern is in itself a deeply curved blade. The infantry pattern 1803 does often match it for curvature, but their was no official blade shape for 1803, and there are a fashion for lavishly curved blades, often inspired by the shamshir. Go to google images and search for '1803 pattern infantry officers sword', or 'flank officers sword' and see the massive variety you get in the results.
Most people have the idea that the British used straight or very lightly curved blades, but that was not really the case until the 1820s. In the Napoleonic period, deeply curved blades were very popular for both infantry and cavalry, whilst straight was used as well of course.