Fallout Talk - Bethesda's Writing Issues and How To Improve
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- Опубликовано: 30 июн 2024
- This isn't a Bethesda hate video, it's about what I, personally, view is the writing issues when it comes to Bethesda's Fallout series.
I'm going at it from a less usual standpoint. That is, I'm not going to just go after retcons and morality, but rather what I feel hinders the series in terms of writing.
Further, I'm not going to compare Bethesda to Obsidian or Black Isle. I'm going to compare Bethesda to Bethesda and point towards times they stepped over what I view is the limiting factor.
After all, Bethesda owns Fallout, I think I should we should ask them for their best and should point to times where they were better.
0:00 Introduction and Explanation
1:42 Underdeveloped
7:07 Haphazard
9:31 Removed
16:00 Conclusion
18:03 Ending
#FalloutTalk #Fallout #Bethesda 
Игры
It feels like Bethesda is writing fallout like it's 60 years after the bomb's dropped not over 200.
Was about to say 20 but close enough.
Ironically followed 76 is set in the perfect time for all this shit to be happening of course there's raiders just 20 years after the bombs fell a lot of them were probably alive in the pre-war era.
@@klaykid117 The raider faction and subsequent sub-factions in 76 were formed for the most part by the rich customers that survived in the Whitespring resort for like a year after the bombs fell, before the robots basically kicked them out. Years later, after all of them are killed or driven out of Appalachia by the scorched plague, one of the sub factions returns (the try-hards, they're the ones in the Wastelanders DLC) so yeah they're pre-war people for the most part. In fact during one of Rose's quests we learn about the pre-war life of the couple in charge of the Cutthroats faction, who used to be a business executive and his occasional lover.
I really wish the story we got to play in 76 was actually the story from the time the bombs fall of shortly after and all through the events of how the factions were formed and the scorched plague killed or drove them all out of Appalachia.
@@sanda386 honestly a shame the story of 76 is something we experience AFTER the real story occurs
Sometimes it feels like 60 hrs ago, like a boy in a fridge...
I'm surprised that when talking about the gunners you didn't mention the minutemen, if I remember correctly wasn't it the gunners that destroyed the minutemen? the fact that we could rebuild the minutemen but not get a quest that allowed us to raid the gunner's HQ was really disappointing to me. I mean the fact that the rebuilt minutemen had practically zero interactions with the gunners was disappointing as well.
It’s a creation club dlc
@@YungBeezer Is that suppose to be a good thing?
@@sirgentlebread7302 no, I’m just saying that the scenario semen dude wanted exists, but Bethesda charges money for it
@@YungBeezer ya we know they charge thats why he said that
@@YungBeezer that was Quincy and that CC mod doesn’t even change the code to have Quincy be permanently cleared.
The “removed” section is probably the strongest part of the video. Bethesda needs to get over it and write interesting stories as they are at the moment. I’m not going to be invested on who owned a shack 200 years ago.
It's a *really* nice shack.
"Seriously, why does everyone feel the need to document every aspect of their lives, especially the incriminating stuff?"
I don't know, that feels more like Bethesda writers were ahead of their time considering what many people will post on social media these days.
Got me there.
It reminds of the South Park game where you have to find evidence of some conspiracy and the guy that has a recording of all the crimes committed says “I’m gonna leave this incriminating evidence here in this room. I’ll just go do something else for awhile then I’ll destroy the tape so we can’t be caught”
Or when you were on the alien base, and there were recordings of a guy saying “I’m being chased by aliens, but I’m gonna stop just long enough to leave these recording explaining what’s happening. Hope I don’t get caught because I’m pausing so much!
Actually, the social media aspects of today's society doesn't work in the world that Bethesda created in 4/76. They didn't have a massive social connection through the internet. So all those journal entries were people basically writing about their lives in diaries that nobody else was ever supposed to read.
I doubt it was Bethesda being ahead of time and more of them choosing to do this as a gameplay and story perspective.
ruclips.net/video/KBTkBojqbA0/видео.html
Obsidian Fallout mentioning pre-war stuff: "Yeah, we found some pre-war equipment and now uses it for construction projects. Sometimes needs a good whack or two to get 'em going."
Bethesda Fallout mentioning pre-war stuff: "'THIS WAFFLE HOUSE WAS ONCE A PLACE OF HAPPINESS AND JOY, BUT IS NOW FULL OF MOLE RATS! I MISS THE DAYS WHEN IT WASN'T, EVEN THOUGH I WASN'T EVEN BORN YET AND DON'T EVEN KNOW WHAT THE F*CK A WAFFLE IS! WOE IS US!"
To be fair, not knowing what a waffle is sounds very woeful.
The talon company could have been a really cool new faction, with a goal of conquering the wasteland and monopolizing the water supply, adding another antagonist to the story instead of just the enclave they could have built specific talon company uniforms and settlements along the road
Take the "Mercs" part of their name out and it sounds like it could've worked.
Talon Company vs. Reilly's Rangers would've been infinitely better than the fan service clusterfuck we got instead
@@nagger8216 Damn yeah that could've been really interesting.
wasn't that what the enclave were doing already? with the water purifier and the attempt at the control of the capital wasteland?
@@poptartfrompluto5169 yes that just adds another main faction or antagonist to the story
Judging by how the one good part of Fallout 4 was Far Harbour and how it had a different lead writer, I am going to go on a stretch here and guess that the problem is singular and named Emil Pagliarulo.
does Bethesda even have proper professional writers normally? I'm not sure they do, they just hand off stuff that needs to be written to staff who aren't doing anything at the moment.
When he said people cared too much about the writing, I knew he was the problem.
The guy said that everyone will be building wood shacks so no one cares about the writing. It’s like, why did you even take the position?
@@J.B.1982 Any source to that? would love to see it lol
yes
I really liked fallout 4 gameplay. But the more I played it, the more I realized the world in which I was having fun it was not coherent.
- I feel the story with the institute could have been better, I didnt understand their motivations and like the other factions of the game, they are a little flat.
- other thing that kinda annoys me its how your companions didnt react about your desicion or the factions you are in.
-And finally, the dialogues. Four different ways to say yes
another thing about the institute, the supreme leader is literally your son and he explicitly states that his plan all along was to make you join him and them you both live together happy ever after..... so why the fuck did he kept sending synths to kill you instead of just making direct contact, it just doesn't make sense.......
and the companion thing is reaaally unimmersive, funny how NV a game from years back had a better companion immersion in that sense
I honestly wish there was more factions the minor ones had like almost no members like the pillars of the community or the atom cats their kinda stupid
The Institute has no motivation. No seriously, they exists solely to be villains and that is it. As for Father I remain unconvinced that he is your son. There is zero reason for your character to believe the guy who is the boss of the bad guys, especially not right after he tried to trick you. What proof does he offer? According to the rest of the game, not even a DNA test would be sufficient.
Institute run in a nutshell: ruclips.net/video/0t0uCWjQ6Og/видео.html
The DUMBEST thing I found in Fallout's plot is that absaloutly no one could tell who was a android and how there was a secretive organisation that set up a entire fake outpost and hideout just to make up this psudo-scence psychological test.
Just have a x-ray machine, make settlers walk through a EMP field, put a person's hand on top of a bright flashlight to see if there's blood and bone inside, a blood test, like there's SOO many ways to figure out who's machine or organic especially with the technology and building ability in the wasteland but for some reason nobody can figure it out.
I like how Bethesda can tell a bit a story only using skeletons in positions. It's cool to take a look around a room and think "Oh, this is what was happening when they died".
that probably speaks to how they're way better at world design than writing.
they can show something cool or something in the environment that implies more story, but they can't really write any actual story that well.
This is how I definitely feel about Bethesda and why I and a lot of other people didn't like fallout New Vegas the first time we played it because Bethesda just makes really interesting worlds but eventually fallout New Vegas grew on everybody with its excellent writing which Bethesda games clearly lack.
They're really good at environmental storytelling if you play fallout 4 Skyrim and fallout 3
So give Bethesda skeletons and bodies and not a pen and paper
the dudes banging on the safe in the bank were great..
O please. Bethesda made fallout 3 look like the bombs just fell when it's been over 200 years. There was more progress in both fallout 1 and definitely 2. They make worlds that don't make sense. Cities with no food source or water source. A city of nothing but kids and those kids are in the most hostile area of the map. People still looting stores and hospitals for food and meds 200 years later. A vault where everybody went crazy and killed each other from crazy gas. But it's still fully populated with crazy people. Putting a water purifier at the bottom of a water source not the top. Bethesda and their stupid fans only care about rule of cool
These flaws are also present In Bethesdas main title the elder scrolls, especially the underdevelopement in the skyrim.
The problem? You've got a lead writer who doesen't understand, nor cares to understand the medium he is writing for, and a project lead who just lets him write whatever he wants, because Todd's already got his big house with a Tesla parked out front, he just wants to make his space game and then nope out. He stopped caring long ago.
That, in a nutshell, is how we got to where we are now.
@@Grobut81 sounds about right.
@@Grobut81
Todd’s been trying to get the tenth planet made for over 20 years. It was a shitty sloppy script then. I’m expecting star field to be the exact same shit show of a game he was told to “ drop “ then.
@@RUclipscanfuckagoat You won't hear any disagreement from me there. Hell, all i have to say is "A space game, on the Creation engine...". Now there's a recipe for disaster! Bethesda haven't even managed to add climbable ladders to their engine in the nearly two decades they have been using it, and now it's going to space? Ohh boy....
I am fully expecting Starfield to be another Fo76 situation of "This is the most entertaining game that i never played". The game's going to be terrible, but the coverage will be pure gold. I'm already giddy for the Internet Historians takedown of it.
@@Grobut81 The problem is not the engine, the problem is Bethesda. Do not blame the engine for their lazy games.
What broke it for me is I never met dogmeat in a playthru and while progressing the story valentine sends me to go get him. He's like" What about that dog Freind of yours at the red rocket"
Nope never been there. Broke my immersion instantly
This happens all throughout the story forcing you to know certain npc
Liar liar pants on fire! If you have never met Dogmeat before he says "I know a guy" and blows a dog whistle with his mouth, inaudible to you but audible to Dogmeat. He then introduces you to the dog.
i think i greeted dogmeat at the red rocket, but when i did that quest with nick, he acted like i didn't know dogmeat. he was just vague about who could help, called him over with a whistle, and there he was.
though, i say "i think" since i got a notification saying dogmeat was available as a companion after he finished tracking kellogg.
3 or 4 generations in 100 years, my man, in the post apocalypse ppl won't have time to wait for their late 20s to get busy, they'd be lucky to have late 20s
my favourite bit of pre-war notes that i stumbled upon in fallout 4 was a couple but in two different parts of the wasteland. One was the wife/mother who was a nurse at a hospital and was scared and basically in lockdown, while the other was the father in a bunker with his two boys, and how a year has gone by and he's still thinking of her. I found the shelter a few days after i found the ones in the hospital, and somehow still remembered them and thought "huh, damn." It was a weird moment, i typically don't remember these notes and such, but the fact that I was able to see into this pre-war split family was damn fine world building, but i do believe a lot of the stuff you find feels useless.
Oh and play a drinking game where every terminal/note you find saying "Everything is looking up, I can't wait for tomorrow!" - Dated October 22nd, 2077, take a drink.
I feel like bethesda would be good in making linear stories instead of calling their games rpg’s.
Don't you dare give them that idea for fallojt
I don’t understand why the Brotherhood destroyed the Institute, aren’t they the faction based on gathering advanced old world tech?
I can see why they would seek to kill the people making synths, but the rest of it?
Most of the factions could have pretty easily taken it for themselves, but no. That's why I side with the Institute anyway.
That and the BoS who hate synths chastising you for not taking roboshaun at the end...
Also the BOS could've used it as a permanent base instead of the airport. Turn it into a underground bunker enforcement.
They needed too. You create archenemy-institute (because synths), and using their technology after wining this war would just look bad from propaganda point of view.
But yea, they would be unstopable if they did use institute tech
I guess you could also add that the writing feels hollow.. Meaning that while an interesting faction, person, location, or element is there. It doesn't go beyond that. Like they're just going through a checklist of what to include and then moving on to the next. I guess you could compare to when it's Easter time and you get one of those giant chocolate bunnies. As a kid you're probably excited because you think the whole thing is made out of chocolate. Only to be disappointed instantly, after the first bitet when you realize the thing is paper-thin, hollow, and doesn't really taste that great.
At 12:21, you say that "they wanted to leave it to the imagination", that's really the big problem with Fallout 4. That "KISS" logic sort of ruined the landscape of fallout's non-interpretable lore and open ended everything. It's really not all subjective in the earlier games, but it's ungodly subjective now. Who knows what really happened, who cares. Make it up yourself. Skyrim with Guns!
I think that's not really an accurate description of what's going on.
They're not leaving anything to the imagination, that would be fine, it's more that they're providing two pretty airtight but conflicting stories at the same time. Gunners are ruthless mercenaries who take any contract and have lots of resources and mysterious backers, but also they're insane goons who kill everyone they see and will human wave their bodies into your settlement security for no particular reason.
This isn't leaving it up to interpretation or unreliable narrator or anything, they're both undeniably true within the story and totally at odds with each other.
Its really Bethesda just cutting corners because they put world building aside to market just the new gaming trend gimmicks.
Thank you for bringing up the gunners. You finally gave me a proper term to use when trying to explain the issues in 4.
Like how there is a functioning iron works a water treatment plant and a cannery but you never use any of these things outside 3 side quests.
You don't use them to make cheap plentiful food or mass amounts of clean water or better guns armor and ammunition for settlers and the minutemen your building back up. Those are potential life changing resources and would make sense how you could build the commonwealth up into something more.
But it gets completely ignored speaking of just the lack of reaction like you could kill every settlement in the game nothing happens no one cares. no one even tries like "survivors" don't try to get revenge or bounties aren't put on you ..
Like your actions feel so incredibly removed and any basic idea of realism in terms of fallouts universe also feel removed or very distant.
I thought they were all old and broken prewar and you were just eating 200+ year old canned fish...
@@blankpage9277 well I mean there's molten metal in the iron works in those buckets or vats or whatever. You also go their to get a part to make the ytangze sub mobile again. Which implies it still works.
The cannery is said to be working given a merchant from vault 81 is there arguing with guy that restored it there's brand new cans sitting around to be filled and so on. So it Works.
You actually get to see the water treatment plant work in a side quest for grey garden once you fix it
That's what pisses me off about 4 it's just so badly wrote like any sense of in universe realism is ignored.
Like would the minutemen or the BOS or even the railroad ignore places that could turn iron steel & lead into guns bullets and armor or a place that makes clean food or water.
They wouldn't you know they wouldn't. That would be like the NCR ignoring Hoover dam or the enclave ignoring project purity.
These old world relics any one would want especially if they work.
But even fallout 3 does in universe realism better than 4. I'm not mentioning new Vegas cause that's been done to death. The Pitt the queen's gambit steamboat the robco factory and so many other places.
I am so glad to find someone mentioning the oddity about the Gunners. That had actually been bugging me when playing through Fallout 4. I hear about how they're "mercenaries," but if they are, why in the world do they just shoot on sight whenever I encounter them? Who do they ever actually WORK for? As you've specifically noted, the Nuka World gangs got a lot more fleshing-out, and made some more sense, as it was possible to encounter them without "shoot on sight" reactions. I would have liked it better if these "mercs" could have been dealt with: maybe I could bribe them to leave me alone, hire them as cannon fodder, or recruit their assistance for whatever faction I line up with. I spend a lot of caps, and now all the Gunner models go from "hostile" to "neutral," say. Spend even MORE, and I could hire some for my settlements, but their rough attitudes and troublemaking might result in caps on settlement Happiness, etc. That would have been much more interesting.
And ditto about the Super Mutants. Super Mutants are really only there, I think, because, "Oh, it's Fallout. We need Brotherhood of Steel and Super Mutants, because those are iconic Fallout." If we ever get Fallout: Australia or Fallout: Antarctica, or Fallout: THE MOON, mark my words, there will be Brotherhood of Steel AND Super Mutants there -- never mind if it makes the last bit of sense. Granted, the Super Mutant Suicider is MEMORABLE ... but it's not like he really makes much sense. (Oh, how many times they've ended blowing up their own guys, as fellow "regular" super mutants haven't the sense to give him wide berth!)
The other big thing would definitely be about the passage of time. There are so many times where I felt like some writer forgot that, "Oh yeah, the bombs dropped 200+ years ago." I figure a contributing factor just has to be the sheer number of contributors involved in churning a huge project out in a short span of time -- that some things just didn't face enough editorial scrutiny before going out the door.
Anyway, despite my earlier post underlining my one little point of disagreement, I wanted to say that I overall very much enjoyed your video and viewpoints. :)
You know something i really like in your channel? Is that you actually have an opinion that isn't "obisidia gud betheda bad" you talk about what you like in the game and what you don't like, and actually adimits when bethesda does good insted of shitting all over it like 99% of the community, and i hope you become a bigger name in the community soon.
My goal is to be unbiased in my videos. I do have them, of course everyone does. But there are plenty of things I can enjoy from each title.
"Being objective in something so subjective" is probably a way to describe it, though it makes no sense. Still, just bashing or praising a segment isn't helpful.
Also, alienating a side of the fanbase doesn't sound like it'd do good for my channel.
@@GamesTwiceOver still, i felt like you had a stronger opinion than the others because you actually talked about the subject withnot bashing it for 1 hour straight like others do, maybe i'm so used to see people making generic hatefull comments that an more neutral one looks different.
I also wished more people in this community had this mentality you have about not just bashing or praising a segment, because many fallout channels and fallout fans do exactually that all the time, and they are so toxic when you disagree that i almoust left the community for good, like people making gigant texts of hate speech just because i said i disliked one character.
Anyway, what i'm saying is that i really liked your channel because you aren't like that part of the fandom, and that's something i really missed.
@@Matt-td8xw Well, stick around and I can will more content that takes the neutral path.
Also the algorithm has been pretty nice to me, lately (knock on wood and all that), so maybe I can help a few others chillax a bit. I know I can't change the minds of most, but maybe a handful.
Yeah, if it wasnt for Bethesda and Fallout 3, Obsidian wouldn't have created New Vegas
And in of itself, 3 had some cool things as Well, for example some of its weapons and ambients, and even a few unique quests
@@alejandroelluxray5298 There's no way to know who would've picked up the IP and created a new Fallout game had it not been Bethesda making 3. Though New Vegas only exists because of Fallout 3 is fairly accurate.
But when thinking how much better it could have been with a good engine instead of the creaky Gamebryo and focusing on outdated console hardware...it's a bit depressing is all. The IP owner/publisher is definitely at fault for engine, release date and platform choices.
Better to have some good Fallout along with some not so good instead of none at all at least.
The first step would be for Todd’s best friend to be removed from his position of head writer. He’s a lousy writer period.
The CPG should have been an option for the player to recreate in fallout 4. The Minutemen would have been great in that development which the Minutemen were extremely underdeveloped sadly. I would disagree however that the CPG incident really explains why there is a lack of development since the commonwealth had plenty of time to rebuild prior to the incident.
That would have been a really neat quest, going to different settlements and trying to get them to agree with the idea and then organize a meeting and try to make it work. Maybe even get the Gunners to join for a nice change of pace.
Honestly, Fallout4 is a game where the more interesting plot was wrapped up before you even got there. The rise of the institute, multiple groups coming together to form a government, each with their own motives that you could've had some influence on. The massacre of the CPG as an optional ending (should you side with the institute).
The minutemen in their prime, seem to make a more engaging faction than what Garvey cobbled together for you to "lead". Maybe they could've been backed by one of the governmental factions of the CPG. The Gunners could've been another faction employed by an opposing faction within the CPG, being in opposition to the minutemen and their backing faction. The institute could've been a faction that wanted to usurp the government, playing turncoat. Backed by another faction within the CPG, using them to usurp the CPG for their own purposes. So much potential for a great game, but it all wrapped up before you awoke.
I get what Bethesda was going for, rebuilding the commonwealth. However what that often resulted in, was the sole survivor playing "messiah of the wasteland" instead of letting you make those meaningful choices and having them reflected in game.
@@lazilycatharticone4191 I 100% agree, I wanna play that game lol
@@colonelautumn4169 lol yeah, it makes me think Bethesda might've originally intended to for that route, or something similar. Then decided to follow the current story for whatever reason. Probably Emil trying to "keep it simple" for the sake of lazy writing 😂
The story and events that are told in holo tapes in 76 would have made an amazing single player game to play, the whole dynamic of what will you do after the bombs fall will you help your neighbors or will you be for yourself and see the consequences of your actions. Bethesda just doesn’t do deep thinking on overall story, it’s so much that should have been fleshed out and now that is lost.
I feel like a lot of stuff in fallout 4 started, was made out to be some epic huge world changing thing and then just ends.
Idk. I think there should have been more focus on making quality quests and characters instead of 40 more nanosecond quests with characters that everybody forgets immediately.
Bathesta has the old world blues
At the time of this comment, not a single dislike, well over 1000 views and 90 likes, I'm impressed and jealous
To be honest, I'm surprised there's not any dislikes considering video game opinions can get a little heated
3 disliked :(
Can't win 'em all.
I really wonder how you would rank the fallout games. It would be cool to see which ones are your favorites. 👍🏼
I thought about doing lists, actually. Fallout game rankings, DJ rankings, companions, important NPCs, etc.
@@GamesTwiceOver I'm very intrested in seeing your thoughts on the series as a whole. You are very good at breaking down details, so it's just intresting to see your thoughts on these games.
I'm thinking I may get more personal when I build up a bit more of an audience. For now, I imagine most want to see "Fallout content" not so much "Games Twice-Over content," if that makes sense.
@@GamesTwiceOver Please dont take this as me trying to tell you what you should make, but i wonder if theres more then just fallout you'd like to talk about?
@@big_anus Actually, yes. I can think of a few titles. But I'd probably need to go for audiences that may overlap with Fallout's audience.
Mass Effect may be a good choice, I'm pretty confident in my knowledge about it. I know Elder Scrolls would have the overlap but... I'm not as confident in it.
There's other series I enjoy like Fable, Vampire the Masquerade, Bioshock, Mount and Blade, etc.
Or single games like Spore or Bully.
Have a feeling that RPGs would be the safest choice for my channel.
Oh, boy, New video, here we go!
And hello, my favourite Ghoul-Tuber!
I'm ready for the disagreements.
@@GamesTwiceOver Are you mad at me? I’m sorry if so, but I disagree with ONLY ONE thing. Terminal entries and holotapes. I mean, not all of them, but reading them makes you think about „How did this world look like before the war?”. Though I understand where you’re coming from. Supermutants in 4 are pointless, I completely agree. After playing FO4 for 500h, I still can’t understand where did they come from. Same with Gunners, they could just be a raider gang, and nothing’d change. And 76 holotapes (not all, but these related to the main story). They’re just boring. But I actually like 76’s holotapes, but I’d much rather have a singleplayer 76 with more choices. Great video overall, but I still think you’re mad at me (especially this joke in the video lol).
Also, I laughed so much about the Ghoul thing that I decided to reference it in this video.
And yeah, Maxson looks like if he’s in his late 40’s/early 50’s. And, actually, I’ve never noticed this „old world” talk, even though It’s so obvious.
Mad at you? God no. Disagreements are just part of of being in a divisive fanbase. When I say "Ready for disagreements" it's more like I welcome the altering opinions.
There's a lot I agree with your video, but on the topic of all the "pointless" journal entries: I personally don't mind them at all, because...
1) They're easy to do. No voice actors. No NPC scripting. No conditional logic. No custom models or graphics or animation. It's just ASCII TEXT. If a level designer spends even a moment imagining what happened at a ruined location and why it's in the state it's in, it would probably be easy to whip up a few imaginary journal entries, purchase orders, etc., to put into a terminal to tell a "story" to fit the scene. I can't imagine it would significantly cut into time spent on the more intensive work.
2) I like the added "fluff." I actually like to get a sense that a location isn't just a random jumble of recycled models, and that there might be some sort of "story" to it. It adds to the "immersion," what there is of it. I've enjoyed digging through every last journal entry, tape recording, etc., since old FPS-with-RPG-elements games like System Shock 2. If it's not your cup o' tea, at least I think it's a very inobtrusive detail that can be easily skipped over by more impatient players. Any /important/ plot elements get spelled out in spoken dialogue.
Fire Emil/demote him to a position like he was in when he did the Dark Brotherhood quest and/or hire a competent lead writer that understands Shandification. Problem solved. Yes it is that simple.
The problem I have with the talking. Take becoming the over boss, going to the shop threatening the shop keepers lives. Next sentence is you asking super nice if you could look at what they have. So my problem is, your good and don't question why because its not important. It would have been fun to become a real raider. You walk past one saying he won't fallow the new over boss and bla bla bla, who has wanted to shoot him in the face. The second you do everyone gets hostile, even in being a raider your just some goodies tushu who can do no wrong.
For me it’s all the damned family focus. I never got along with my family so I hate someone trying to get me to care about a family as opposed to just letting me be what ever character I want to play.
I think the biggest difference between New Vegas and Bethesda's games is that Obsidian lays it all out for you in well written dialogue (OWB 45 minute intro being the best example), where as Bethesda either leaves things in the world for you to figure out the stories on your own or leaves them open to interpretation (like how the Quincy Massacre happened and the relevance of the named gunner Clint) both of which makes things feel pointless because most players wont bother reading every terminal or finding every scrap of paper to figure out these stories
I feel if the two could just work together it would be for the best. Obsidian's story telling and creativity and Bethesda's world building and understanding of the game engine.
I always felt the Pre war stuff in terms of wasters made sense for people who popped out of vaults 60ish years prior. So the oldest member that left the vault could be first grandpa, and while they have been in the vault for 200 years, you figure they had nothing to talk about but, pre war stories past down generations. "Why can't we leave the vault dad?" "Heard of the great war?" so it would be on the minds of new wasteland vault dwellers. A generation or 2 growing up in the wastes will lead to them seeing that as normal.
the pre war terminals and notes are the only way to tell the story of the fallout world BEFORE the bombs, when you play fallout the stories you discover exist in one of 2 times and both of them are interesting asf
And they build up the world more than any other form of storytelling in fallout imo, they are snippets of life that cause you to gradually build a subconscious picture of the world before, which (combined with your mental image of the present world) allows you to plot the trajectory of 200 years of the wasteland.
I think the partial point of this video was that we don't really _need_ that much pre-war storytelling now -- Fallout 2 especially barely mentions the pre-war world. It's not that finding about what happened in vaults etc is bad, it's just the incessant personal journals that everyone apparently kept etc.
I half agree with the terminal entry part, I think it would be better for us to have both way back entries and newer ones. so that way we get to see growth for the world. Also idea for how to use the random back ground stories we get from raiders and gunners would be have them actually have an effect. Like for example there is the story of Red tourniquet and her sister, instead of just being flavor text use it in game for something. Like if you find the place where her sister was taken (have her still be alive.) and you rescue her then when you go to the area with Red the raiders are non hostile to you and even allow limited looting. this could even go so far as teaming up with red and her raiders to kill the other group if you had not killed them already.
things like that would give the random background stuff use, either by given tips on how to deal with other groups or finding ways to render certain groups non hostile to even allies.
Interplay: “can’t talk, too much work with the current situation. Drought is hitting everyone hard.”
Bethesda: “fuck off”
My thought on how people always take about the Great War all the time is based pretty realistically because it's what caused their everyday lives to be as they know it. For example, people still so often talk about WW2 and I think 100 years from now unless we top it and have a new one to talk about, we're gonna talk about it for a long time, and in context for fallout, their war was more life changing (even for those who were born 200 years later)
idk I think nowadays it's only obnoxious old people and nationalists who bring up WW2 to try and appeal to some kind of national spirit, nobody ever _seriously_ talks about it in the way people talk about the war in Fallout
@@Graknorke as a nationalist I talk about WW2 as a perfect example of what not to do
Lack of politics/dramas/stuffs that would naturally occurs as people live in the present based on the consequences of the past. This is writing overall. You nailed it. A big portion of the present was removed and not written about. New Vegas is always the golden standard because there are sufficient dramas, everything is written about: past, present, future.
The thing is acording to a presentation that Todd did in a university at the time that fallout 3 had released so it can be different now but i doubt it, they dont hire just writers they hire quest designers they dont hire peoplw to just write the story and all of those involving elements they hire people that basically multy task, so it kinda excuses the bad writing but not really, its not all bad, true but they need to improve it, they are so good at world building and environmental story telling they just need to hire a small team of writers and i swear that the next Tes, fallout game or Starfield would be the best games ever
They do have a lead writer, who thinks that writing in video games is superfluous as nobody plays games for story.
@@Duchess_Van_Hoof who? I actually never saw him
@@Duchess_Van_Hoof never mind i actually looked it up and it wad Emil funny enough I already knowed the guy from the noclip documentary, he as major problems in his work but maybe he can evolve i hope
There was a comment on a review of New Vegas a few years back I think and it’s always stuck with me as something I despise about Bethesda’s choices for world building… it’s the radio. 3 and especially 4 are focused more on the atom aspect- like there are SO MANY SONGS that sing about 1) The Atom, 2) Rockets 3) less relevant but a good few sex ones for which weirdly enough may be the most relevant ones 4) general violence. NV on the other hand are more relevant to the world, songs of money, lust, patrolling the Mojave dispensing fresh hot justice.
Bethesda mounts itself so much to “Oh woe is me the world ended” whereas NV is more “No shit it ended, now grab your gun- NCR is here”. If they leaned more into the chosen PC of 4 to be you know, an actual character instead of an actual character that was hijacked but fights it every turn the “Shit the world ended” works more, but we only get a few mentions of it at the start. It would be cool to see them make one set right after the bombs drop since then them leaning into it makes sense
Thanks man. Nice video. I love it when more people acknowledge Bethesda's abysmal writing
I've always thought working with the gunners to take nuka world and then being able to work with them throughout the wasteland would've been an amazing storyline.
It seems to me that world building is treated as a chore that gets in the way of marketing. That is why the supermutants and enclave have to be in every game, even when it doesn't make much sense, the consumer is expecting to see familiar things from previous games and we save time making new assets. Win-win.
You make great content and have a great voice! You’ll get more views and subscribers, keep it up.
I see your point about the wastelanders yearning for the past and mostly agree but a real world example is how so many people yearned for the lost Roman Empire centuries after it had fallen.
TIL that the Gunners might warn the player before attacking.
Dude i love your videos.
I thought I was the only one that thought this way about the games.
I'm subscribing!
It would have been cool if you could approach a gunner NPC at some type of office or outpost where you could take small jobs (intimidation, escorting) for extra money and xp. You could also hire a few gunners / assaultrons for a set amount of in game hours excluding time spent for fast travel as some extra damage or meat shield, like the armored trolls and hounds in the Skyrim Dawnguard dlc.
Talon Company is definitely a missed opportunity. I think rather than make the Gunners, who are just basic enemies in military cosplay, they should've brought Talon back for Fallout 4 and fleshed them out more.
It would've been interesting if they were a group who were above the likes of Raiders (and the Gunners, honestly) in the idea that they don't attack on sight, and actually have some sort of game plan for what they want to accomplish. I could see them being this unempathetic group focussed on gain and efficiency. Rolling into settlements and staking claim to them, and killing off any wastelanders who object or get in their way.
It'd introduce a good moral conundrum. Talon taking what is not their's from those who built these whoms and cultivated these lands themselves, and removing power from any who held it prior, and using lethal force to do it. But at the same time, what they take becomes integrated into everything else they've taken. Trade routes are opened, supplies become more accessible, these places get protection from well trained and well armed mercs, among other things.
Make them joinable and give them their own questline, and you could've had a fresh, new, interesting, Bethesda-made faction that likely would've been well-welcomed into the Fallout universe. It's a bummer.
I want to see cities built from sandstone and what not like the first game. I want to see “fallout” style in the sense of buildings, not just reused pre war houses etc.
About the Great War, I like how Preston Garvey and Piper react when you mention being around before the bombs fell...confusion and then wonder. Preston even asking you "What War?" I kinda think thats when he stsrts thinking about making you the Minutemen General.
One more major issue I have would be tunnel vision. They write out a quest or a location or character with very few considerations for how a myriad of players might respond to it. My example of this at its worst is Nuka world. The storyline is so loaded on how you’ll build up raider settlements and expand their influence and power, and there’s so minimal consideration for the very common possibility of “what if I don’t like raiders? I just spent a whole dang game with my morally good character wiping them off the commonwealth with Preston, and I have zero interest in helping these raiders.” It’s all of this choice on if the player embraces it, but literally just the open season quest which is just kill em all, if you don’t. No choice to resolve it any other way. On the flipside though, Far Harbor was much more well written, and I did feel free to express my own feelings through quest storylines there. Hopefully FO5 is more like that. Because when the players wants are so misaligned from their options, it sucks.
I think you said it well when talking about the Super Mutants, and how they where plastered in everywhere just... because:
Bethesda clearly does not know how to further develop the assets it acquired, so it needs to expand into new assets.
Fresh enemies will bring with them different, and hopefully interesting, motivations for us to explore.
Building settlements is the worst. The fences never go along with the slope of the land!
I think what would make the gunners more authentic would be if sometimes they attack on site but other times they try to engage you in conversation, either as a potential customer or as a new recruit and their behaviour after depends on how you answer certain questions. If you attack them then it makes sense that every gunner after that would be hostile but if you allied with them then they would be at least civil with you, although some elements could still take a dislike to you.
Bethesda tried too hard to please classic fans instead of building upon their own strengths. If they had committed to the potential of the Settlements instead of leaving it half-baked Fallout 4 would've been more well received and at least viewed as a welcome change to the IP.
They would have been much better off going with less emphasis on each nuanced detail of placing ever single light switch, and conduit, and light pole, etc. They spent a lot of time setting up the endless loop of: Clear area, Gather what resources you could carry, Bring to settlement, Build what you can...start loop over.
In the end, the settlement building got us, nowhere. It really didn't effect the game much, and had next to no effect on the plot. It could have been it's own game, but they crammed pointless settlement grinding on top of the poorly done shoot-and-loot nature of their combat system.
4 was much like having 2-3 games worth of separate concepts, that they never fully developed and just crammed together.
@@13shadowwolf the Shoot 'n' Loot is the best part.
@@renaigh except the have crap AI for combat, the guns looks like crap (I'm a gun nut), the armor looks like crap, and they have waaaay too many settlement items that have to be put together "just so" because their border sensing is also crap. They spent basically no time thinking about how the feats/perks system would effect combat. Combat is a joke even mid-game, late game I didn't even have to try; just walked forward and shot anything I saw. Then, with the legendary system...I have no idea how many times I killed several opponents, and only took some of the ammo, because everything else was garbage.
@@renaigh I guess you're right, the absolutely horrible shoot-and-loot they set up was the "best" part; because everything else in that game was even worse.
@@13shadowwolf why do I get the feeling that you would object to using mods, because you realise how fun the game can be.
I strongly disagree with your opinion on pre-war stories being wasteful, but find your perspective interesting nonetheless. Very good video!
I did go in knowing it'd be the controversial take. Of course, I'm glad people are just "I disagree but you do you" rather than "Wow, you're dumb" or something.
@@GamesTwiceOver You did a good job making it clear that you were fine with people disagreeing, which is pretty much the opposite of what some other fallout critique videos do. That goes a long way in making people like you. I'd also like to add that I quite appreciate you judging Bethesda on their own merits instead of comparing to Obsidian or Interplay. Bethesda is a company with a unique way of doing things and they will never be like other game companies. Critiques like yours help show how Bethesda can be the best version of themselves, which I think is much more useful than being an inferior version of someone else
@@kdude2704 Of course. I'm not saying lessons should not be learned from Obsidian or Interplay. (Original devs and all.) Plus I think writers and, hell, creators of all stripes pull from each other anyway.
But I think going for a 1:1 recreation would feel inauthentic. Bethesda should adapt ideas rather than copying them. And I honestly feel they did do a number of adapting with 4.
@@GamesTwiceOver Oh yes, I didn't mean to say old Fallout was obsolete or anything, it should be learned from and respected by Bethesda for sure. Apologies if I sounded too anti-classic Fallout there.
@@kdude2704 Not at all, I didn't mean to imply you sounded anticlassic by any means. I just want to say I do think there's many ways to adapt elements to one's own style. It also allows experimentation.
I do think Bethesda should get some pointers from the writing team of Obsidian. New Vegas created a NPC that you only meet through his journal enteries. Randall Clark was almost fully fleshed out, and his story draws to in. You actually begin to understand, care for, and respect this man. That makes it poignant when you do eventually find his remains, his last journal entry, and his Rifle. In one of my first playthroughs, I even stood by him and drank some whiskey as a toast for the man before fast travelleing back to the way back to the Mojave.
I played New Vegas before Fallout 4, so I admit I'm kinda biased. It was that kind of writing and character development that irritated me the most about FO4. FO3 didn't irritate me quite as much, but I was new to the franchise then.
The Development of the Lone Wanderer and Sole Survivor still make more sense to me than the Dragonborn in Skyrim, where you can basically become the head of almost every major faction and chossen champion of every Daedric Prince
15:14 At least that is consistent. The representative synth of the Institute they send to the CPG reunion was simply playing fallout 4 too.
How would you compare the writing of this series to the Witcher series?
9:41 On this point I actually think that this is a cool concept that Bethesda just does terribly. The idea of people being nostalgic for an era they've never even been born into is actually a pretty common thing in the real world. You see it in many different forms such as the "born in the wrong generation" group, or the sub culture of people who worship ancient cultures such as the greeks or the romans. Obsidian actually tackles this idea in New Vegas, and its ESPECIALLY prominent in the DLCs as a concept they often refer to as "Old world Blues". Caesar created an army based off the roman legion, Ulysses wanted to return to the old world ideas that America was founded on, and in dead money the whole theme of the story is about beginning anew and letting go, (I've heard an interesting fan theory that this was Obsidians way of telling the classic Fallout fanbase to accept that the fallout series is changing.)
Honestly I've played fallout 4 a lot and.. I don't think I've ever heard about the cpg?
I think it would have been awesome if we could try and work towards that again in game given how far the settlement have come along now
The Gunners at the start of Nuka World would also have been a cool side quest opportunity
Great channel with great content! Although I don't always agree with you, you do make some great points. Cheers.
It’s weird that people 210 years after the great wars remember it like they went though it, unless it’s a ghoul or someone who was in the enclave, brotherhood or a vault I guess
It's weird how the vault people seem to remember nothing a lot of the time when only like 200 years have gone by. Unless they slaughtered all the elders and raised the kids in a cult there's no way they'd be so ignorant after so few generations have passed.
That actually sounds like a Vault I’d like to see in a game
Interesting addition to your removed point is that the United States civil war was 156 years ago the fact that people never shut up about the pre-war times is like if in 54 years people always talk about the civil war and its ramifications as if they lived through it
In my opinion I think that example actually works to defend Bethesda here. People still argue over whether we should keep statues of Confederate generals, honoring clearly evil individuals, or destroy them and risk history repeating itself. There's still tension between demographics all stemming from the history of slavery. With that in mind it actually seems less weird that people obsess over events that happened long before anyone was born. Since they do it in real life too, as it seems to be human nature to cling to historical and generational grievances.
@@Otakupatriot117 and to top of your point. There are still people that are on both sides of the argument, and still fly confederate flags. And yes, I'm one of them.
Why Doesn't Bethesda Just Make Looter Shooters? That's How They Treat Most Groups In Fallout Like Borderlands Enemies.
probably because bethesda makes rpgs.
@@Benjamin_Starscape Your Response Did Not Answer My Question And Is Not Gamer Pulled Enough.
@@theeternal2734 it did answer it. bethesda makes rpgs, not looter shooters. it's not that complex tbh.
@@Benjamin_Starscape I'm Asking Because I Don't Feel Like They Make Good RPGs Anymore So Why Don't They Make Looter Shooters.
@@theeternal2734 that's great you don't *feel* they make good rpgs, but that's entirely subjective. to me, they make some of the best rpgs.
Far Harbour had a pretty tight narrative with interesting faction dynamics
As a addition to this video. So for logical reasons he did not mention another huge writing flaw: Bethesada writing except for the insitute man base "I quess people are just inherenly indivialistic so they fight eachother so often that they can not wven clean their main base" I could make a clean commonwealth modpack in 1 month or less. Contact my if you want your mod or one that you like in the modpack.
Getting that done would surely improve my sense of immersion.
Also, more often than not, the player isn't given a dialogue option that is more suitable.
1:40 No Review Process: Dialogue (etc.) was written but there was no process in place where the script was reviewed. Ideas could have been exchanged and the dialogue (etc.) improved. Of course that would certainly add time and cost, so...
4:20 And maybe they could promote you to General and you could be sent on the most tedious missions... by a private. ;D
6:13 Actually for me, the biggest problem with Raiders is their AI. They shoot and kill and *NEVER* loot. Supposedly raiders hit caravans, supposedly. There're even encounters where they try to shake down the player (as do the Gunners) and maybe a farmer or something. But any time you watch raiders (Pirates, etc.), they kill and *NEVER* loot. This AI problem exists in all games that I have played.
12:30 But they were given the same AI as raiders.
You know what would be cool for the gunners,
Having sharpshooters that can attack you reliably from long distance.
That way if you have a sniper rifle you'd have to figure out where they're shooting from and kill them before they can kill you
If you don't have a sniper rifle you'd have to stealth or just avoid the places where the sharpshooters have a vantage point.
They would basically be glorified turrets at that point.
I feel like Fallout 3 and Fallout 4 both had a good structure, but much of the dialogue and quest design left much to be desired. I do however think that Josh Sawyer and Chris Avellone are really incredible at what they do, and New Vegas was more of a homerun rather than being the standard that all Fallout games are held to. Last I heard, Chris Avellone was working freelance. There's no reason Bethesda couldn't contract him for a future Fallout title. Obsidian and Bethesda are both subsidiaries of Microsoft now too.
I really wish that Bethesda would at least leave their writing open ended for role playing purposes. Because as cool as it is to emerge from the vault and be a special vault person who saved the world! Sometimes I want to play grizzled wastelander who is scrapping by, or maybe a pacifist trader who’s trying to start a great business while connecting all the factions together with trade agreements and comprises, Or maybe even a raider maniac who’s mind is gone through years of chem use and knows it’s a game so they go on a rampage because nothing is real to them. Creating the character you want with a very restrictive backstory really sucks
What do you think this is a role playing game?
I feel like Talon Company and the Lawmen of fallout 3 should have been fleshed out better.
If you had bad karma you would be invited to the talon company and be able to go up in their ranks by doing different actions in their factions like the mages guild and fighters guild in elder scrolls. Same with the law bringers. Only real difference between it and the guilded would be your ability to join would be based on how good or bad you are as a person. Could have made it more dynamic by having if you changed your karma too much you would get kicked out
Then theres factions like the minutemen who are supposed to be some civilian milita that wear jackets that offer no protection and use makeshift laser weapons that are only good when used on mass in a fortified position and at no point in the minutemen quest line did Bethesda ever think that maybe after the Castle was recaptured that the minutemen might need new equipment and send you on a quest to secure a depot of weapons for them to use like maybe the service rifle or 3s assualt rifle and actual armor. This could work because there's the minutemen who just defend their own settlements but also the ones who are volunteers who fight for the minutemen as a profession like the US national guard
As someone who is interested in real world militias, the minutemen organizational structure doesn't make alot of sense
This is a great video. It could have been twice as long, there is more wrong with the writing than what is covered here but he makes some excellent points.
I like how in fallout 4 the super mutants where the reason the Commonwealth almost got a Regional power & they feel like their effect on the wasteland is more realistic as people would surly band together when faced with a greater threat than just stay divided. The Persians united the Greek city states against a threat to their way of life (even though the Persians were better people & all). like wise the threat of the Super mutants would unite some group in the capital wasteland to fight against it but we see no signs of that.
Underdeveloped
Haphazard
Removed
Trick question:
Are talking about Bethesda's writing or their QA testing?
They are good at contextual story telling
Fallout 76 despite having no NPCs at launch had a lot of good side stories if you dig deep enough
I remember watching a making of Fallout 3, where the developpers were talking about how they had to use their smartphone light to see during a power shortage, and though : "yeah, that's post-apocalyptic shit."
Story goes that's how they come up with the idea of the pip-boy as a source of light in dark environnement.
I though, it's not a post-apocalyptic experience, at best an apocalyptic experience.
Love the fallout 2 Auro background music.
I thought gunners were just some kind of militaristic bandits.
Recently was going north to the far harbor's intro house whatever it was caleld, and found Gunners on a tiny bridge demanding a fee. I didn't know you could even talk to any of them.
11:37 I think the point of it is to make the world feel like it really has been lived in and that it’s dead and burned to ashes now.
I think the reason FO3 was written the way it was, just to give the audience context of what differences between the present and the current world exists in to connect the two histories, or witrhout it, people might think it was just a fantasy world and not an alternative timeline from ours.
Or that FO3 was supposed to be in-universe, the characters suffering from the pre-war nostalgia fed to them through the radio proaganda. They could be just clinging to the idea that the pre-war world was better than theirs in pre-war references but exaggerate it or idolize it morso because they're ignorant to it. Its what nostaligia inherently does. 60 years later would have people justrecalling how bad it was when the wrld was ending, but 200 years later would give plausibility to their generation being ignorant enough to just believe it without bias or question. They don't have the PTSD from post-war, but just the pieces they fit together and pre-war ghouls who can varify things.
It could be along the same lines as to why some Americans (usually conservatives) who were not born or lived in the 1950s, pretend its the golden age of America prior to whatever cultural shifts they don't like just because they were told it was. The characters in FO3 might being doing that themselves. As well as poverty and detrimnent weould make it much more likely for people to seek escapism due to the stress of reality's conditions. There is even a woman at Arefu bridge that thinks shes a 1950s housewife. Nathan in Megaton also exemplifies tis, as he's delusional about it, while all he knows is just the Enclave Radio propaganda loop.
The Gunner should have been the evil faction that you can side with in the beginning of the game. Similar to the powder gangers in New Vegas and the Stormcloaks in Skyrim at the very beginning of the game you're given an option for who to side with Fallout 4 should have giving us the option in that first interaction saving Preston and the others from the museum the ability to side with a group of gunners chasing down the last remnants of the Minutemen allowing us to either save Preston and Revitalize the Minutemen or finish them off and join the gunners.
This would have opened up a true evil playthrough for the player allowing you to actually make an evil choice and have an impact on the world as an evil player rather than just occasionally getting to be a dick in dialogue
Maybe the bigger problem with Bethesda is that they didn't even try to make sure that Talon merc's body color matches his face's.
its fairly obvious that the gunners were supposed to be a lot more than they are and that a MASSIVE amount of what was going to be developed was cut, possibly due to time constraints.
Going from the Van Graffs in NV to the Gunners made me wonder if Bethesda played through enough of the one they didn't make.
I have always thought that the potential of Bethesda is in making giant immersive scenarios where you can explore hours without getting bored and with only a couple of clues you can see a whole story behind an area, where you can kill higher-level enemies and make yourself more strong finding more loot, feeling progress in your character when you look back, I hope now that they could work in obsidian we will see the best of both worlds
I remember in the quest with the USS Constitution talking to the scavver woman about how you're an American citizen and she goes like "America, what is that" like she barely even knows it, felt very immersed. Doesn't usually happen though
I always liked fours story i feel like bad writing and voice acting are the reasons people think it was so bad fallout 4 could've been so much better
Gameplay direction is also reason to blame why fallout 4 is sucked. It's supposed to be a fish out of water experience but just 10 mins into the game you already killing raiders and DEATHCLAWS with a minigun and power armor. Do fallout 4 have some good parts? Sure I think everyone agree that nick valentine is a good character with alot of missed potential with the kellog stuff
I don't really think the voice acting was the issue, at least in the sense that the actors weren't necessarily the issue. There's a generalized inconsistency of tone with so much of the dialogue in the game across so many characters that I'd lay responsibility squarely at the feet of the VO Director.
The unfortunate truth is that even if Obsidian did get a second crack at Fallout, it isn't going to be the same without the people who worked on New Vegas and Bethesda is ultimately the ones to decide the series' future, and considering they seem to think that it's focus should be on looting and shooting rather than making a well written setting and characters to get invested in, the future is looking pretty bleak...
the Issue with fallout and elder scrolls writing for me is the main story plots are mediocre at best. They are the best at side quests, Easter eggs and world immersion, which they only mess up then they cut content is a way that messing up other quests.
How to improve Fallout’s writing:
Step 1: Fire Todd Howard
Step 2: Fire Emil Pagliarulo
Step 3: Hire the writers and devs who made New Vegas
The gunner/raider parrelel reminds me of skyrim dragons just being dumb flying lizards, despite the writing acting like theyre these intelligent & cunning creatures
Any notice that talon merc had two different shades of skin?
Well Dark And Tan Are The Only Two Colors That Humans Have
its kinda hilarious this video was suggested to me today. i have nearly 2000 hours in fallout 4 and only today i was wondering around and heard a gunner yell "you better get out of here" and it didnt immediately start shooting. i still shot it dead in a second but i didnt even realize that them warning you is a mechanic i just thought the Ai was having trouble targeting or something lol
Bethesda would rather put teddy bears in funny positions then tell a good story.
They talk so much about how they handstakenly place stuff. And items. That's their passion. It's really sad that it's not the factions. The world. The story. It's inconsequential shit.
what I hated most about the gunners is that I cleaned up their hq just like any other poi on the map. no followup, no retribution, nothing. I just killed a few named mobs and that was it, poi cleared, moving on to another poi.