My instructor, many decades ago when discussing landing a glider used to say, "Its better to hit the far hedge at 10 knots than the near hedge at 40 knots"
Thanks again, very very useful! As an Asw15 owner I dare to add that: - Airbrakes in this glider on upper and lower wings are very very effective, perhaps he should not have closed partially, but I understand him - Wheel brake is almost non existent whichever work you make. I rely better on the tail skid on grass fields: he was pulling the stick full back, but he was fast and maybe had a tail wheel. To do a ground loop he should have lifted the tail a bit. Anyway, the same happened to me last summer, strong tail wind (my mistake), but long long concrete runway, and I jumped into the lateral grass strip at the end to use the tail skid...
@@PureGlide The wheel brake in the ASW-15 is more decoration than brake... The text panel he has in his video also says just that. All it did was make squeaking sounds, he wrote. Thank you for all your helpful and informative videos.
Danke fürs veröffentlichen des Videos. Vor allen für mich als absoluten Anfänger der Kurz vorm beginn der SPL steht, sind solch Videos echt Gold wert. :)
@@smusicchannel5174 Vergiss aber nicht, dass du selbst deine Erfahrungen machen musst und wirst. Kein Video oder Buch der Welt vermittelt dir das Gefühl fürs Flugzeug - merke ich auch bei meinen Flugschüler:innen.
@@flofliegt Da stimme ich dir vollkommen zu! Man sollte auch nie ausschließlich auf Videos setzen, wenn es ums lernen geht. Man sagt ja nicht umsonst, dass man am Steuer lernt. Ich finde solch Videos aber eine gute Möglichkeit zur "Sensibilisierung". Auch wenn dass Hobby viel Spaß bereitet, sollte man immer auf alle möglichen Probleme vorbereitet sein. Denn sowas kann auch schnell unschön enden.
Fair assessment! I can empathize with how he felt as he left the airport. Likely couldn't see behind him, so he didn't know he was still over the end of the runway until he started the turn. A failed take-off is a tense situation.
The side-slip advice surprised me a bit, seeing how slim the fuselage of a glider is one would not expect a lot of increased drag (like you have with a boxy airplane like a Piper Cub). Then I realized how relative this all is. A glider is so efficient that even limited side-slip drag is bound to have a significant effect on the glide ratio. Every little bit helps in cases like this.
Yes, look at how small the air brakes are on a glider, and how little of the wing they disrupt, yet the effect is dramatic. So a side slip does two things: reduces the length of the wing, and the body gives a wind shadow over a portion of the wing.
But with some gliders sideslip with brakes out blankets the tail plane and the nose drops, pegase for example. It needs practising at altitude. I thought he might have managed a 360 turn to scrub off altitude but suspect too low for that.
Side slip is standard practise. Every student pilot learned how to do it. But you are right, those huge Ka-4 (Rhönlerche) , Ka-7 and ASK-13 fuselages make for excellent air braking. Old school trainers came down fast without doing a side slip, too. Doing a side slip, you lose altitude so fast, you must be careful to kick the nose back, in time. I loved it. But the wooden wings had air brakes both above and below the wing. These huge brakes prevented exceeding Vne. And an open slid between the upper and lower brakes reduces wing lift dramatically. Such planes can do a horribly steep approach, when needed.
Forgot one good thing about the side slip. It is impossible to stall a glider during a FULL side slip. The angle of attack is reduced. It is the exact opposite of using rudder only and get into a spin. A side slip is a very safe way to descend, if you master it. Ah, and what happens to your instruments? You do not need to know any airspeed, when you can't stall. You need to have some oldfashioned trust to learn a side slip.
Thanks for another great video Tim. I would add two things to your response: 1. After the 180turn, when realising you are still at 100m/300ft over the winch, you probably (unless in heavy sink) have enough height to do another 360 turn. You'd lose about 30 to 50 meters, and then be in a better position. 2. On the topic of groundloop: don't forget to shove the stick to the frontstop when you put the wing on the ground. Otherwise you might break the tailboom of the glider. But main lessons here, as you covered: 1. have a working wheelbrake! replace the pads if needed, and don't wear them out on regular landings just to shorten your rolling distance by a few yards 2. Learning how to sideslip and be proficient and current on that can really help you when you end up too high on final approach
Yes I don't recommend doing 360's before final approach. Instead increase the size of your circuit, which has to be done earlier. Worst case you could do some S turns to increase the distance to the airfield. Teaching people to turn their backs on the aiming point is not a good idea.
@@PureGlide Yeah, fully agree that a 360 turn has no place in a regular circuit. However, if you do find yourself this high and this close to the airfield, and if air brakes and side slip isn't going to be enough, there aren't that many options. Series of S turns is a good one though :)
Agreed, there is a big risk to shear off the rear fuselage. So in this case, where there was no immediate safety risk as he could always avoid the cars and people he probably took the less risky approach. I was just wondering why he did not use the long runway visible on the right just before the mini patch he landed on? Given the strong tailwind this would have been a much safer option, albeit requiring a longer downwind phase. ..although I suspect he wanted to get back to the winch launch start point without having to pull the glider back up there. I’ve sinned similarly out of convenience and wanting to get back into the air quickly..
I think that the glider is an ASW 15, which has a conventional tail and is very heavy. I agree that easing the stick forward to would have helped. With a T tail, with all the mass at the top of the fin it is easy to shear the fuselage boom.
Should probably mention that ground loop is maneuver to save your life and most likely break something in the glider when at high speed. Brakes were probably working but at that speed (100km/h) they have no effect till it drops to something more manageable for the brake pads and power of human muscle. It is so good that people share videos like that. Thanks for analisis. Waiting for more videos!
Hey thanks for watching. From my experience ground loops can cause damage (e.g. snap the tail off), but it is rare. The trick is to keep the tail off the ground when it happens.
Goodnight! - I really liked the channel! - mainly due to the approach, analyzing each point in the videos, indicating the action or actions that would be most appropriate to avoid an incident! - a big hug!!
I've been binge-watching your videos since I came across them and find it very useful to debrief on incidents like this. Very difficult to do just in isolation in a classroom with someone describing it verbally with a marker pen and board.
Ah yeah, rather easy to binge watch these 😁 ⏰ Part of the reason for me is that everything is Green. In Australia it's a Civil Aviation Act requirement that all unsealed runways have to be either brown grass or just rocks and dirt, and any green grass removed with 24 hours.
Pegase, I have brake on it but I can’t rely on it 😂, compare to a dg-500 where the breaks are super nice on it. But yeah land with a tailwind not a good idea
If I was in situation, way high, start a significant slip all the way to the ground to greatly increase glide slope and far earlier touchdown. Other lesson is don't fly if your brakes are shitty, not working well.
I am a CFIG with a lot of winch flying. Most likely a good wheel break would have stopped the glider. It looks like he should have gone farther upwind before turning back and would have had a lot more runway to land on. You can also put the wing down and ground loop it, another advantage in ground looping is crashing with your tail or wing into something is better than your cockpit. 100 m should be high enough to do a 360 degree turn. When you find yourself high S turn full breaks and slip. The 180 degree turn can put you in this same position on an aero tow. Fortunately only minor scratches and pride damaged. Most likely a drum break and they don't do a real good job stopping. I made the suggestions before hearing your take on it and it looks like we had the same ideas about the way to fix being too high. Thanks for sharing.
There is a check in the Netherlands during a winch launch. At a certain height (let's say 100 meter, depending on field length & conditions) there is a decision point. If you're below, you land straight, if you are above, you do a 360 short circuit. You call out this height during the launch, checking the altimeter. You call out this altitude at roughly 80 meters, due to hysteresis of the altimeter. You do not need to make these decisions during the launch. I flew at a field in Germany with similar conditions, you had to land opposite of the starting direction, even with tailwind. Point is, for these kinds of fields you have to have procedures in place, e.g. touch down roughly at the winch. And these need to be practiced. I wonder if similar procedures are in place for this location.
Excellent presentation Tim. I broke a Sky port wing doing a ground loop many years ago. It's a long story so I'll just mention the main points. I had to make a field landing on a very gusty day. I approached over high trees onto a long grass strip roughly into wind, but with the wind blowing up a slope to the left of the strip. I hadn't notice the slope from altitude. The strip also had long thick very wet grass, and the skid on the sky skidded along like a ski on snow. The wind coming up the slope from my left also helped maintain my forward momentum. The narrow run then dipped down towards a wire fence with posts. I wasn't going fast, but still sliding. So I put my right wing tip on the ground to ground loop to the right. The Sky turned to the right BUT IT SUDDENLY FLIPPED TO THE LEFT, BECAUSE WITH THE STICK TO THE RIGHT, THE LEFT AELERON WAS DOWN, AND NOW THE STRONG WIND FROM BEHIND ME FLIPPED THE GLIDER TO THE LEFT - unfortunately striking one of the fence posts. That was the last day of an excellent RAF comps, but that sudden tail wind on the ground loop taught me another lesson.
In the Text of the Video at 2:48 he said: That he was landing with 80Km/h and back wind, in the second sentence he said, that the break of the older club glider does not work really good and only makes some noise...
In 15kt+ wind downwind-landing should be a rare exception. Here there vere sufficient altitude for a full turn (360 degrees, 180 degrees extra compared to what we see here). The altitude is sufficient for a full turn unless heavy sink is encountered (I've done a 360 degrees starting from 80 m or 250 ft with a student). A minor item; I'm not in favour of extending the airbrakes in the middle of the turn. Thx to the pilot for sharing. The only victim here might be a minor loss of face. But well invested in a valueable experience - said someone with two unintended groundloops.
In my airfield ehte we do a short circuit as off 100 meters when we have a winch launch cable brake exactly because of this. It is comparable to a cross country circuit.
pretty much exactly what you said went thru my mind on first watch of vid, too high, didnt sllip didnt ground loop, stick forward during ground loop, and pull up wheel as option is all I would add.
That'll literally buff out. He just wanted the shade for when the clouds clear. Not sure if he used the right wing dragging the ground to avoid the vehicles but I don't think he would have a lot of tail authority with the wind coming up his backside from the left.
Side slipping can be a good option but some gliders don’t do that very well. I can remember the Janus would not be very friendly; after a moderate slip angle with full rudder, the nose would swing waay sideways, the rudder would aerodynamically lock full deflection and ailerons would lose effectivity. Recoverable but insidious. Better to practice sideslips at altitude first and know your aircraft before you use it in panic mode. Of course the Janus had a drag chute for a reason...
@@raulboerner2027 So the Airfield where the incident happened is the Airfield where I fly, and it's called "Segelflugplatz Hellenhagen". The Club which is based there is called "FSC Hannover" and it´s located at "Ith" which is in the "Weserbergland" near the Portaridge. Here is the location on Google Maps: www.google.de/maps/place/Segelflugplatz+Hellenhagen/@52.0291374,9.5649151,2313m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0x7e98cef122aa4241!8m2!3d52.0269901!4d9.5615387
Cool to see your comments. The pilot did not realize how strong the wind was when he decided to make the 180 turn. The incident is the direct consequence of that misjudgement. All other comments relate to fixing his wrong decision. Note that there is almost no time to analyze / correct. Such a misjudgement can be avoided by doing pre launch emergency planning. Here you have plenty of time to think things thru, and when emergency occurs you execute your plan
Keep in mind you have to land uphill, despite the wind direction. So it was almost the perfect landing except just a touch too much energy and no braking!
Closing the brakes was probably a habit from trying not to land with the wheel brake on. The ASWs don't have a nose wheel or skid so stuffing them on the nose is almost as unpleasant as kissing the hedge. Hard to say from where the video starts but almost certainly in that wind the best choice was to do a 360 and land into wind: My pre-flight planning would not even consider a downwind landing in that situation. Glad he walked away.
@@PureGlide Yeah that's a fair point, but given they believe they could stop on the runway from a low-level land-ahead launch failure I think the slope isn't too bad, otherwise they would be launching the other way. It's hard to tell from a GoPro video.
I'm mid-way through LAPL training and have recently wondered about having a few gliding lessons to hone my knowledge, but to be honest I might just stick to the engine variety... 😜
Thanks for another great video. I am pleased nobody was hurt. 300ft half way down a modest-looking strip is certainly tricky! Did anybody mention the crosswind? (look at the windsock) I think the crosswind was possibly the pilot's friend here. A prompt left hand improvised circuit would have been crosswind-assisted. It can be a bit scary turning that low but then so is the downwind rocket option with a chocolate teapot wheel brake. I've never experienced this airstrip and I'm not saying the pilot made the wrong call. Just surprised that the crosswind wasn't identified as a factor in the decision process. E for Eventualities. It's hard to anticipate them all but so important to consider 'what-ifs' before the winch cable is attached. Finally, in the safety-obsessed 21st century, do glider wheel brakes have to be as poor as they usually are?
I'll point out that the ASW-15 has weak airbrakes and a weak wheel brake. My ASW-19 (being a fairly low serial number) also suffered from these conditions, which drove me nuts trying to land it after I bought it. Imagine only being able to use about the first few inches of travel on the spoiler handle and you'll get an idea of what it was like. After about 10 landings I thought I'd had a grip on how to land it, but then on my first outlanding I found that a very large field was not going to be big enough! I still had enough altitude to use some slip, and I tried groundlooping it after I touched down, but really only managed to get it to make a curving path on the ground, so I was travelling parallel to the road at the far end of the field when I came to a stop. On the drive home from the field I made an appointment to have the second spoiler panels installed! Anyway, this pilot flies this approach very accurately. The speed is nailed all the way through the steep 45 degree banked turn and carried right down to touchdown. He obviously is very competent flying this glider. It seems like he doesn't realize his predicament until later in the ground roll. One thing I've noted in Stefan Langer's videos is that by habit he seems to make long rollouts after landing. I wonder if that is a habit at this field? Touch down and roll up to the launch point to save pushing the glider... Also I see in other comments the mention of "homeopathic brakes" (love that remark!). Long ago I watched the senior instructor tell someone to test the wheel brake as soon as one had touched down, because it would be "unfortunate" to have some people-shaped dents in the leading edge. I've flown a couple of clubs where we land one way and take off the other (including the current one), even with a fair bit of tailwind on either takeoff or landing. However, there's a limit to how much tailwind can be tolerated. We had a glider go through the fence trying to land with too much tailwind a few years ago. An issue with the wind blowing up the hill is that you get ridge lift. I noticed his vario was showing a climb just before he started his turn back.
Hi yes I agree, I suspect he didn't realise there was a problem until it was too late! And yes he was very accurate, just mis-judged the energy by only afraction
There's actually one more thing you can do before resorting to doing a ground loop - pull the stick all the way in (full nose up). Not too early of course, otherwise you'll get airborne again. This pushes the tail skid into the ground and adds a good amount of additional drag. Works especially well on soft ground and also decreases the risk of plowing the nose into the ground if the main gear digs in too deep.
Not sure if the slipping maneuvers are named differently in different countries, but in the U.S. the one that you use to lose altitude is called a forward slip. The one you use to compensate for a crosswind while staying aligned with the runway is called a side slip. They are so horribly named that I usually have to remember them by thinking that if it were to cause me to spill my coffee, the direction it would go names the maneuver.
Nice detailed analysis! Good job! I tell my flight students not to turn back when the wind is stronger than 15km/h. With such a strong wind you have so many options for flying a short circuit with the wind helping you. It pushs you back the whole time and therefore the length of useable runway in front of you increases. It also allows steeper approaches. Another danger of turn backs is that your final turn gets to low, if you fly upwind far enough. You should avoid turns below 80m to be able to recover from stall and spins.
@@PureGlide When landing in hilly terrain you definitely have to take the slope into account and slope is more important than wind, I agree with that. On your home airfield you know the slope and if you usually do downhill landings there, its ok to also do them after a rope break, I guess.
Touching down with excess speed is far better than holding off for the landing. The rolling drag, particularly if he gets the tail down too, will use more energy than floating in ground effect! That said, he did one thing really well and that was turning while he still had enough speed to avoid the parked van!
Landing directly after coming out of a turn seldom is a good idea, only if your surrounding dictates it. You should always be set up for landing way before that. But of course i am only a sim player not a pilot so take that with a pinch of salt.
Easy to say now, but he had room to do a full circuit and given the strong wind could have turned into wind for a halfway-along runway landing. Instead he extended into wind, but not enough. Even then after turning downwind he needed FULL airbrake and could have also side-slipped to lose height before running out of runway. But he survived and it could have been a lot worse.
I'd say the error happens even before the moment he turns in (too close and too high) over the winch to land. Given that: 1. it looks like a very short strip, 2. the wind is blowing very strongly and 3. He's right at or even above decision height (100 meters, probably slightly above taking altimeter lag into account), why did he not make a 360 immediately after the rope break and land towards the winch? With that wind he'd probably have been doing nearly a normal approach by the time he completed the turn. I've been taught to always call the "100 meters, shortened circuit" check the moment I feel I have the altitude to turn around, do a 360 (or even a normal circuit) and land. Before the call you land towards the winch (and wind), after the call you go around and land against the wind. Only on very weird and awkward fields is it ever a good idea to land with the wind, but it should only ever be a "I really have no other option" kind of thing. With 100 meters altitude, I feel there's no good reason to choosing to do a 180 in this scenario. All the other mistakes just follow from that failure to make the right decision at cable break. If I had to say anything else I think on top of the stuff mentioned in the video I would also question his speed control. He's flying 110 to 120 for a lot of the approach. Many gliders just don't want to drop and speed brake effectiveness is severely reduced at increased speeds. You'd want SOME over-speed to compensate for the tailwind and wind gradient as you get close to the ground, but 110 to 120 is really pushing it. I think if he'd kept it at a solid 100 the whole way down he might have gained those few dozen meters he needed.
I do like your uploads ! The pilot (having ballsed up the circuit) didn't do so bad..... He didn't hit the car (well done) and chose a good set of scrub to arrest his landing. Poor chap - we've all landed a bit long or had a less than perfect circuit - but he got bit ! PS How do you shortcut to the calculator function AND auto convert Y to Z (km to knots) ??? Learning something new (I hope) every day !!!
Hi on a mac: command space to bring up spotlight, type what you want e.g. "110km/h" and press tab to see the different conversions (in Big Sur only, in previous OS you don't need to press tab, it shows you automatically the conversions)
I thought he was planning a beat up until the airbrake came out. Glider wheel brakes - there isn't much inclination to test these while being positioned and I never saw it being done. With a powered aircraft it's a standard check while coming out of the bay. When I was gliding years ago our club Blanik's wheel brakes produced only a faint hint of retardation and plenty of noise when used on roll out. Until, of course, after a year or so they were repaired unannounced (no aircraft paperwork). I was the first to fly it after the fix and when I used the usual huge handful of wheel brake handle, up went the tail and down went the nose and we stopped very well ! ' What was that ?!' After that I'd check brakes every time. Ground loops. What do you think is the best way to stop the wheel digging into a soft surface or providing traction on a hard surface, in both cases causing damaging side load forces on the wheel structure ? I'd suggest locking the brake on a hard surface and no brakes on a soft surface. In between ?
A working brake would have indeed solved the issue. lesson learned is to do a proper pre-flight check (incl. checking a working brake). Another alternative i see is doing a full circle after the winch launch and landing upwind but without a working brake and going downhill would have probably resulted in going off the runway on the other end instead. Thanks for sharing your thoughts
Unfortunately as the author of the video explains, it ist very common for such gliders to just have a very bad working brake. It would just cost too much to refit a much better working brake
@@nilszitzelsberger8501 yes understandable but what price is safety worth? damaging the glider or worse the pilot is something you will not forgive yourself on for not having spend the extra money.
Any one of three of a working brake, not landing downwind in a strong wind, or doing his final turn further back would have kept him out of the bushes. Too many little errors building on each other unfortunately
The air brakes on the earlier ASW15's (1970's) were not very effective not sure if they were ever modified later to overcome this. Coming from the timber and fabric type of gliders you had to be aware of this. We called it a HELP situation or High Energy Landing Problem if you were caugth.
@@PureGlide I guess so! I have a 15 and the brake isn't very effective either. Maybe there just isn't enough mechanical advantage in pushing the shoes out? My recollection is the design is not like a vehicle drum brake that kind of self energizes from the forward movement. Maybe that's the difference...
@@AD7ZJ The wheel brake on my 15B works pretty well - I installed new shoes, cam and lever arm from Tost some time ago which made it strong enough to put the nose on the ground on hard braking. They aren't self energizing like car drum brakes though, as you pointed out. Having the wheel brake activated by the air brake handle means I needed to spend time carefully adjusting the wheel brake cable in order to get good tension on the cable without restricting the air brake travel. The 15 does have quite powerful air brakes and it is well behaved in a slip and comes down like a rock in one so it should have been possible for the pilot here to get down with a lot more runway in front of him - which is an easy thing for me to say sitting in my living room typing on my computer. Rather more pressure up in the air. I've only ever done aerotow and haven't had a low altitude launch failure in my two decades of flying. Plenty of simulated ones (one per year minimum) but simulated and real aren't the same thing.
@@interfrastically mine works but I don't think it'll put on its nose. You're right about the air brakes, they work great! I haven't cared that much about the wheel brake because of that. Next time I'm working on it I'll try adjusting the cable a bit tighter.
@@AD7ZJ I swear there's some something beyond human understanding going on with glider wheel brakes! I've got a friend with a 19 - same exact wheel unit as mine and he did exactly the same things to it but it still is a little less effective than mine. A club Grob single with the exact same unit resolutely refuses to be anywhere near as effective as the 19's despite doing the same things to it. I've read about people modifying the shoes, bolt and cam so the self-energize like car drums but I'm not about to start filing and grinding parts based on what I've read in an old copy of "Soaring"!
Difficult to tell from the video but there might have been enough height to do a proper circuit and a landing in to windish. Certainly he did a poor circuit, there seemed to be a need to land asap, which meant he was too close to the landing point. The ground sped might have been around 65/70mph on touch down. I didn't hear the scraping sound of brakes until late on. A ground loop may snap the tail off. The pilot might benefit with more winch failure practice.
My experience is only in 20th century, in SGS-2-33. This glider had a nose so if you raise the tail, the nose skid will slow you quickly. Would that be an option this century in ASW-15?
a few notes from the text in the original video: * wind situation: 30 km/h wind, 40 km/h gusts * the winch launch was too fast at first, then too slow, leading to an automatic disconnect * decision: he didn't want to make a short circuit and land in the usual direction due to the surrounding terrain. His turn to final would've been at around 30-50 m AGL * ground loop: he actually intended to do a ground loop but was too stressed/overwhelmed in that moment. In the end, he decided that going into the bushes was better in terms of injuries and damage than going into the other glider or car * wheel brakes on this type of glider are more of an alibi ("brakes are mostly homeopathic and is mostly noticeably by its squeeking")
Did he have enough altitude after making the turn, to make one more 360???... Very close judgment call I would guess... Great stuff thanks for posting...
@@PureGlide I took that into consideration, but as a last resort to lose some altitude etc etc. Like I said it was a close judgement call. Thanks for responding.
If he extended a bit longer he would have been fine. Even if you cut the base to final short he can slip to kill altitude in the turn to final to have more runway to work with. As long as he is OK, that's all that matters!
My first reaction was that he should have slipped the glider but the 15 mph tailwind would have made that harder to do and less effective! I still would have tried it once I realized I was going to be long. But, any landing is a good landing, ha.
We generally don't teach dives on final approach, but yes it might have helped. Ideally you have a bigger circuit and don't need to do such a manoeuvre.
Emergency overshoot maneuver and being taught over doing a forward slip for higher performance and effective airbrake gliders. I did one last year when I found myself high on final and it worked quite well.
Looks like a good landing to me after an aborted winch launch. The other option could have been to land against the wind in a field close by. But maybe there was no option for that.
Another trick he could have used is what we call a "glide path recapture" in France (rattrapage de plan). You go full spoilers, dive to the bottom of the glide or indeed even below, and then level out to recapture the glide path and bleed that excess energy. fast Means you can avoid a long landing and give yourself more time to brake.
Works well if you aim well short and have good airbrakes. Not so great if you aim the nose at the original aiming /reference point or are in a type with weak brakes as you just arrive at higher speed :-)
Yes, this isn’t taught in UK, but definitely works. Because your drag is proportional to square of velocity you get a lot more drag than at constant speed. More drag overall = less energy on arrival.
In the UK we call it an energy dump, it can be very useful when landing in very strong (wave) conditions, but not recommended from 300ft. I would have used a sideslip; also very handy if the brakes air brakes freeze up.
He did not do enough for taking the plane into the ground loop. He actually tried not to. Look at his legs and especially the stick in the last part of the roll. I know, I know... Being smart after the fact is easy. The pilot actaully panics at the very end and his training rutine does not allow him the think of the groundloop as an option. However as he starts to turn, not to hit the car and other planes, he should have forced the right wing into the ground with the aelerons and the siderudder and he would have turned even more and even groundlooped. By the way a groundloop will in some cases break the plane. At the tail or at the wingrod. But as you said, He did make many misktakes even early on. However being fatigued by a long flight or stress by landing with the wind at high speed is properly what put him over the egde and into a path full of mistakes.
I reckon he realised and put the wing down to try and ground loop, but was going too slowly for it to take effect. And then just rolled down the hill unable to stop it! Cheers
At 5:16 - Pulling hard on the airbrake handle and engaging the mail gear brakes should have put the glider onto its nose (except for wet crass) and stopped it short of the bushes. The sound I heard on the video seems to me to come from the main gear brakes and is a metal on metal sound?? That also could cause not being able to stop.
I personnally wouldn't recommand a sideslip with a fiber glider : Having discussed with Holigaus he said that it's fairly easy to break a tail (especially on the Janus) doing it. On top of that, the shape of the fuselage drastically reduces the efficiency of such a maneuver (compared to a sideslip performed on an older glider). Another solution would be to spend some energy approaching faster to increase the efficiency of the airbrakes.
Really? that's the first I've heard that a side slip isn't appropriate on a fibreglass glider. Maybe it's just the Janus? Yes I guess a rapid descent is an option, although here in NZ we don't teach people to do it on final approach.
@@PureGlide Well the Janus doesn't seem to have a particularily fragile tail (compared to a Marianne for example) so I would assume that's something to be carefull about in any modern glider. Here (in France) we're taught the maneuver I described. There seems to be a consensus among flight instructors I've met that a sideslip on a fibreglass glider isn't as efficient, and all of them recommanded to just degrade energy by increasing speed with airbrakes out to catch up with the plan.
@@PureGlide The Janus -A at least does tend to drop the nose / need full elevator as you exit the slip (with flap +brake). So if you are too slow / late on exit it's going to be a heavy landing. I suspect the 'C' is better here as general handling is much better but I've only flown one of those a few times. However I've never had a problem with any of the non-flapped 'fibre" gliders I've flown (so far...) . Just do the first practice slips on each type under easy conditions rather than wait for desperate circumstances before trying. Make allowance for higher wing loading by easing them out of the slip progressively and * early* so you can confirm adequate airspeed and pitch control and reduce airbrake if a bit on the slow side before the flare rather than full slip -full brake to last second. It's a skill every glider pilot who leaves the local circuit should have because sooner or later, for one of a million reasons you will muck up the approach and be too high and close :-) . And if there is a hydraulic disk brake conversion for your glider - fit it.
The only problem I have seen is with a Pegase (and to some degree withe the ASW 19). We had a pilot who was near to the upper forward c of g weight limit and through in a sudden and steep sideslip in the middle of the approach. The glider divided vertically. The pilot an instructor had a word with the CFI, who did not believe what the pilot said; and went and repeated the exercise, with similar results. I then flew and repeated the exercise at height successfully and then on the approach. No problem, but I was (then) much lighter. After further experiment we were able to discover the cause of the problem. The glider has a relatively small tailplane and the turbulence from the fin blanked half the tailplane causing it to stall. The Janus, being a flapped glider also has a small tailplane, perhaps it to suffers from a similar problem. I flew a visiting ex-RAFGSA Janus 15 years ago and the owner passed on the advice he had received from the RAFGSA, "don't spin it and don't sideslip it".
Now you tell me!! In the 80's, I flew a pioneering fiberglass ship, the Std Libelle, manufactured in 1971 with decent spoilers but no flaps and incredible ground lift. I had to slip it many a time and hardly ever lost my tail, ha.
He's a true Bush pilot
lol
...what does it mean,if you Say He's a TRUE BUSH PILOT??...PLEASE ELABORATE ....C.
Ahahahahaha well done! Best comment of I’ve read today 😆
@@JPTulo I guess he knows about bush, because he went deep into the subject (bushes)
@@christopherbester1063 I guess he knows about bush, because he went deep into the subject (bushes)
My instructor, many decades ago when discussing landing a glider used to say, "Its better to hit the far hedge at 10 knots than the near hedge at 40 knots"
Thanks again, very very useful!
As an Asw15 owner I dare to add that:
- Airbrakes in this glider on upper and lower wings are very very effective, perhaps he should not have closed partially, but I understand him
- Wheel brake is almost non existent whichever work you make. I rely better on the tail skid on grass fields: he was pulling the stick full back, but he was fast and maybe had a tail wheel. To do a ground loop he should have lifted the tail a bit.
Anyway, the same happened to me last summer, strong tail wind (my mistake), but long long concrete runway, and I jumped into the lateral grass strip at the end to use the tail skid...
Interesting, thanks!
@@PureGlide The wheel brake in the ASW-15 is more decoration than brake... The text panel he has in his video also says just that. All it did was make squeaking sounds, he wrote.
Thank you for all your helpful and informative videos.
Fascinating even to a none flyer. Thanks again for sharing your experience and insight
Nice analysis. More details of my explanation would have made the whole situation easier to understand. Greetings from the Crash-Pilot. 😅
Hey great to have you here! In hindsight what would you have done differently?
I am glad to learn from your flight. And I am glad you are uninjured and safe.
Danke fürs veröffentlichen des Videos. Vor allen für mich als absoluten Anfänger der Kurz vorm beginn der SPL steht, sind solch Videos echt Gold wert. :)
@@smusicchannel5174 Vergiss aber nicht, dass du selbst deine Erfahrungen machen musst und wirst. Kein Video oder Buch der Welt vermittelt dir das Gefühl fürs Flugzeug - merke ich auch bei meinen Flugschüler:innen.
@@flofliegt Da stimme ich dir vollkommen zu! Man sollte auch nie ausschließlich auf Videos setzen, wenn es ums lernen geht. Man sagt ja nicht umsonst, dass man am Steuer lernt.
Ich finde solch Videos aber eine gute Möglichkeit zur "Sensibilisierung".
Auch wenn dass Hobby viel Spaß bereitet, sollte man immer auf alle möglichen Probleme vorbereitet sein. Denn sowas kann auch schnell unschön enden.
Fair assessment! I can empathize with how he felt as he left the airport. Likely couldn't see behind him, so he didn't know he was still over the end of the runway until he started the turn. A failed take-off is a tense situation.
Cheers!
He was so bushed after this, I'll bet he is considering branching out.
Haha nice
It takes a lot of stones to share your failures - we only crow about our successes 👍
So true!
Dealing with a failure and not totalling the glider or yourself definitely counts as a success to me.
The squeeking noises at tye end sounds like his brake overheated and faded, and that's why he finds it so hard to stop at the end.
Yeah maybe!
I believe he says in the original video that the glider has "homeopathic brakes" or "brakes with homeopathic effectiveness."
@@justinburstein5349 Haha that's great
@@justinburstein5349 with homeopathic results!
The squeaking noises sounded more like he was starting to cry!
The side-slip advice surprised me a bit, seeing how slim the fuselage of a glider is one would not expect a lot of increased drag (like you have with a boxy airplane like a Piper Cub). Then I realized how relative this all is. A glider is so efficient that even limited side-slip drag is bound to have a significant effect on the glide ratio. Every little bit helps in cases like this.
Yes, look at how small the air brakes are on a glider, and how little of the wing they disrupt, yet the effect is dramatic. So a side slip does two things: reduces the length of the wing, and the body gives a wind shadow over a portion of the wing.
But with some gliders sideslip with brakes out blankets the tail plane and the nose drops, pegase for example. It needs practising at altitude. I thought he might have managed a 360 turn to scrub off altitude but suspect too low for that.
Side slip is standard practise. Every student pilot learned how to do it. But you are right, those huge Ka-4 (Rhönlerche) , Ka-7 and ASK-13 fuselages make for excellent air braking. Old school trainers came down fast without doing a side slip, too. Doing a side slip, you lose altitude so fast, you must be careful to kick the nose back, in time. I loved it. But the wooden wings had air brakes both above and below the wing. These huge brakes prevented exceeding Vne. And an open slid between the upper and lower brakes reduces wing lift dramatically. Such planes can do a horribly steep approach, when needed.
Forgot one good thing about the side slip. It is impossible to stall a glider during a FULL side slip. The angle of attack is reduced. It is the exact opposite of using rudder only and get into a spin. A side slip is a very safe way to descend, if you master it. Ah, and what happens to your instruments? You do not need to know any airspeed, when you can't stall. You need to have some oldfashioned trust to learn a side slip.
Thanks for another great video Tim. I would add two things to your response:
1. After the 180turn, when realising you are still at 100m/300ft over the winch, you probably (unless in heavy sink) have enough height to do another 360 turn. You'd lose about 30 to 50 meters, and then be in a better position.
2. On the topic of groundloop: don't forget to shove the stick to the frontstop when you put the wing on the ground. Otherwise you might break the tailboom of the glider.
But main lessons here, as you covered:
1. have a working wheelbrake! replace the pads if needed, and don't wear them out on regular landings just to shorten your rolling distance by a few yards
2. Learning how to sideslip and be proficient and current on that can really help you when you end up too high on final approach
A 360 on final is generally discouraged. Plenty of people have crashed trying to do that
Yes I don't recommend doing 360's before final approach. Instead increase the size of your circuit, which has to be done earlier. Worst case you could do some S turns to increase the distance to the airfield. Teaching people to turn their backs on the aiming point is not a good idea.
@@PureGlide Yeah, fully agree that a 360 turn has no place in a regular circuit. However, if you do find yourself this high and this close to the airfield, and if air brakes and side slip isn't going to be enough, there aren't that many options. Series of S turns is a good one though :)
Good to know about pushing the stick forward. I hadn't heard that.
If you are going to ground loop you should unload the tail by moving the stick forward. Less likely to break the rear fuselage that way.
Agreed, unfortunately (fortunately?!) I don't have any ground loops caught on camera otherwise I'd make a video about it!
Agreed, there is a big risk to shear off the rear fuselage. So in this case, where there was no immediate safety risk as he could always avoid the cars and people he probably took the less risky approach. I was just wondering why he did not use the long runway visible on the right just before the mini patch he landed on? Given the strong tailwind this would have been a much safer option, albeit requiring a longer downwind phase. ..although I suspect he wanted to get back to the winch launch start point without having to pull the glider back up there. I’ve sinned similarly out of convenience and wanting to get back into the air quickly..
I think that the glider is an ASW 15, which has a conventional tail and is very heavy. I agree that easing the stick forward to would have helped. With a T tail, with all the mass at the top of the fin it is easy to shear the fuselage boom.
I managed to do a 180 degree groundloop in a Discus CS with the tail in the air all the way, al by luck. High grass at the airfield to blame
Should probably mention that ground loop is maneuver to save your life and most likely break something in the glider when at high speed. Brakes were probably working but at that speed (100km/h) they have no effect till it drops to something more manageable for the brake pads and power of human muscle. It is so good that people share videos like that. Thanks for analisis. Waiting for more videos!
Hey thanks for watching. From my experience ground loops can cause damage (e.g. snap the tail off), but it is rare. The trick is to keep the tail off the ground when it happens.
I just adore his face and this greeting with the NZ accent
Thanks!
Clearly the problem starts with that stick, it’s hideous
Haha who doesn't love a good splinter
4:23 OK, I know it's cruel and you're obviously a consummate professional, but you deserve a medal for the straight face you kept there 😉
:)
Goodnight! - I really liked the channel! - mainly due to the approach, analyzing each point in the videos, indicating the action or actions that would be most appropriate to avoid an incident! - a big hug!!
Thank you very much!
I've been binge-watching your videos since I came across them and find it very useful to debrief on incidents like this. Very difficult to do just in isolation in a classroom with someone describing it verbally with a marker pen and board.
Glad they're useful! Cheers
Ah yeah, rather easy to binge watch these 😁 ⏰
Part of the reason for me is that everything is Green. In Australia it's a Civil Aviation Act requirement that all unsealed runways have to be either brown grass or just rocks and dirt, and any green grass removed with 24 hours.
I like your calm delivery. Great stuff.
Thank you! I bet I wouldn't have been as calm if it was me in my glider crashing :)
Pegase, I have brake on it but I can’t rely on it 😂, compare to a dg-500 where the breaks are super nice on it. But yeah land with a tailwind not a good idea
Right on!
He never does it anymore! The great lesson.
I bet!
If I was in situation, way high, start a significant slip all the way to the ground to greatly increase glide slope and far earlier touchdown.
Other lesson is don't fly if your brakes are shitty, not working well.
Agreed!
Those magnetic trees men... Always get yah.
Haha
I am a CFIG with a lot of winch flying. Most likely a good wheel break would have stopped the glider. It looks like he should have gone farther upwind before turning back and would have had a lot more runway to land on. You can also put the wing down and ground loop it, another advantage in ground looping is crashing with your tail or wing into something is better than your cockpit. 100 m should be high enough to do a 360 degree turn. When you find yourself high S turn full breaks and slip. The 180 degree turn can put you in this same position on an aero tow. Fortunately only minor scratches and pride damaged. Most likely a drum break and they don't do a real good job stopping. I made the suggestions before hearing your take on it and it looks like we had the same ideas about the way to fix being too high. Thanks for sharing.
Hey thanks for your comments
There is a check in the Netherlands during a winch launch. At a certain height (let's say 100 meter, depending on field length & conditions) there is a decision point. If you're below, you land straight, if you are above, you do a 360 short circuit. You call out this height during the launch, checking the altimeter. You call out this altitude at roughly 80 meters, due to hysteresis of the altimeter. You do not need to make these decisions during the launch. I flew at a field in Germany with similar conditions, you had to land opposite of the starting direction, even with tailwind. Point is, for these kinds of fields you have to have procedures in place, e.g. touch down roughly at the winch. And these need to be practiced. I wonder if similar procedures are in place for this location.
Excellent presentation Tim. I broke a Sky port wing doing a ground loop many years ago. It's a long story so I'll just mention the main points. I had to make a field landing on a very gusty day. I approached over high trees onto a long grass strip roughly into wind, but with the wind blowing up a slope to the left of the strip. I hadn't notice the slope from altitude. The strip also had long thick very wet grass, and the skid on the sky skidded along like a ski on snow. The wind coming up the slope from my left also helped maintain my forward momentum. The narrow run then dipped down towards a wire fence with posts. I wasn't going fast, but still sliding.
So I put my right wing tip on the ground to ground loop to the right. The Sky turned to the right BUT IT SUDDENLY FLIPPED TO THE LEFT, BECAUSE WITH THE STICK TO THE RIGHT, THE LEFT AELERON WAS DOWN, AND NOW THE STRONG WIND FROM BEHIND ME FLIPPED THE GLIDER TO THE LEFT - unfortunately striking one of the fence posts.
That was the last day of an excellent RAF comps, but that sudden tail wind on the ground loop taught me another lesson.
The most important thing is to use up energy so when you hit something (like the post) it's not a big impact! And thus you don't hurt yourself :)
In the Text of the Video at 2:48 he said: That he was landing with 80Km/h and back wind, in the second sentence he said, that the break of the older club glider does not work really good and only makes some noise...
Cheers
In 15kt+ wind downwind-landing should be a rare exception. Here there vere sufficient altitude for a full turn (360 degrees, 180 degrees extra compared to what we see here). The altitude is sufficient for a full turn unless heavy sink is encountered (I've done a 360 degrees starting from 80 m or 250 ft with a student).
A minor item; I'm not in favour of extending the airbrakes in the middle of the turn.
Thx to the pilot for sharing. The only victim here might be a minor loss of face. But well invested in a valueable experience - said someone with two unintended groundloops.
Cheers, although keep in mind he has to land uphill!
.well...avoid down wind landings!!!..ASK ATC TO GO AROUND!!!..then...PUT HER SAFELY DOWN!!..
halfway ...of course!!!!
This sticker (circle) in middle of dashboard made my day XD I asume this is ammo indicator? XD
Actually it is the label of the ventilation knob.
Haha
In my airfield ehte we do a short circuit as off 100 meters when we have a winch launch cable brake exactly because of this. It is comparable to a cross country circuit.
pretty much exactly what you said went thru my mind on first watch of vid, too high, didnt sllip didnt ground loop, stick forward during ground loop, and pull up wheel as option is all I would add.
Yeah agreed, pulling up the wheel is a good option (if you can, some gliders you wouldn't be able to)
That'll literally buff out. He just wanted the shade for when the clouds clear. Not sure if he used the right wing dragging the ground to avoid the vehicles but I don't think he would have a lot of tail authority with the wind coming up his backside from the left.
Haha yeah exactly
Side slipping can be a good option but some gliders don’t do that very well. I can remember the Janus would not be very friendly; after a moderate slip angle with full rudder, the nose would swing waay sideways, the rudder would aerodynamically lock full deflection and ailerons would lose effectivity. Recoverable but insidious. Better to practice sideslips at altitude first and know your aircraft before you use it in panic mode. Of course the Janus had a drag chute for a reason...
Yeah exactly right, get to know your aircraft
that happened ~10km away from my home airfield :D it's located at a ridge where i'm usually flying. that's an ASW 15 btw.
Cheers!
Please, what is the name of the airfield and its location?
@@raulboerner2027 So the Airfield where the incident happened is the Airfield where I fly, and it's called "Segelflugplatz Hellenhagen". The Club which is based there is called "FSC Hannover" and it´s located at "Ith" which is in the "Weserbergland" near the Portaridge. Here is the location on Google Maps: www.google.de/maps/place/Segelflugplatz+Hellenhagen/@52.0291374,9.5649151,2313m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0x7e98cef122aa4241!8m2!3d52.0269901!4d9.5615387
Cool to see your comments. The pilot did not realize how strong the wind was when he decided to make the 180 turn. The incident is the direct consequence of that misjudgement. All other comments relate to fixing his wrong decision. Note that there is almost no time to analyze / correct. Such a misjudgement can be avoided by doing pre launch emergency planning. Here you have plenty of time to think things thru, and when emergency occurs you execute your plan
Keep in mind you have to land uphill, despite the wind direction. So it was almost the perfect landing except just a touch too much energy and no braking!
Indeed. Memories of my initial glider instructor’s voice was screaming: SIDESLIP! SIDESLIP!
Exactly!
Closing the brakes was probably a habit from trying not to land with the wheel brake on. The ASWs don't have a nose wheel or skid so stuffing them on the nose is almost as unpleasant as kissing the hedge. Hard to say from where the video starts but almost certainly in that wind the best choice was to do a 360 and land into wind: My pre-flight planning would not even consider a downwind landing in that situation. Glad he walked away.
He's landing uphill though, so you have to choose that option over landing into wind
@@PureGlide Yeah that's a fair point, but given they believe they could stop on the runway from a low-level land-ahead launch failure I think the slope isn't too bad, otherwise they would be launching the other way. It's hard to tell from a GoPro video.
I'm mid-way through LAPL training and have recently wondered about having a few gliding lessons to hone my knowledge, but to be honest I might just stick to the engine variety... 😜
Thanks for another great video. I am pleased nobody was hurt. 300ft half way down a modest-looking strip is certainly tricky!
Did anybody mention the crosswind? (look at the windsock) I think the crosswind was possibly the pilot's friend here. A prompt left hand improvised circuit would have been crosswind-assisted. It can be a bit scary turning that low but then so is the downwind rocket option with a chocolate teapot wheel brake.
I've never experienced this airstrip and I'm not saying the pilot made the wrong call. Just surprised that the crosswind wasn't identified as a factor in the decision process.
E for Eventualities. It's hard to anticipate them all but so important to consider 'what-ifs' before the winch cable is attached.
Finally, in the safety-obsessed 21st century, do glider wheel brakes have to be as poor as they usually are?
Yes he wouldn't have needed to keep flying into wind much before turning back towards the airfield for this to have been a non-event!
Great vid! poor guy with all those onlookers lol. I swear one of them is running to "save" him haha
Yes I noticed that too!
I like the merch on your website. Not overly fancy but stylish. No big “try to get attention” lettering. Anyways I’ll be getting something. Thanks!
Thank you! Yes wanted to design stuff actual gliders pilots will wear :)
I would have thought a down wind track was not good at all. No wonder ! He had enough height to do a 180 in my view. Thanks.
Cheers Jonathan
Hahaaaa! I was waiting for you to analyze this one! ;-) Also: Sporty new haircut, I like it! ^^
Cheers mate! This is my normal haircut, it's just that it only happens occasionally :)
@@PureGlide I know the problem all too well! :) BTW: If you ever need German translated for one of these, just hit me up!
Oof. LoL that sound of ownership distress.
Pretty much!
@@PureGlide I know that sound of ownership distress unfortunately. Fortunately it hasn't happened in my glider yet. Just in my cars lol
Go around. Ah just remembered... no engine.
Ha I'm pretty sure heaps of planes with engines have ended up in the bushes too
@@PureGlide yes - Pilot: I guess we're going around....... hop hop crunch - Passenger: I guess we're not.
Good learnings; thanks for sharing and analyzing! Indeed, side slip would have been a good recovery effort.
Cheers
I'll point out that the ASW-15 has weak airbrakes and a weak wheel brake. My ASW-19 (being a fairly low serial number) also suffered from these conditions, which drove me nuts trying to land it after I bought it. Imagine only being able to use about the first few inches of travel on the spoiler handle and you'll get an idea of what it was like. After about 10 landings I thought I'd had a grip on how to land it, but then on my first outlanding I found that a very large field was not going to be big enough! I still had enough altitude to use some slip, and I tried groundlooping it after I touched down, but really only managed to get it to make a curving path on the ground, so I was travelling parallel to the road at the far end of the field when I came to a stop. On the drive home from the field I made an appointment to have the second spoiler panels installed!
Anyway, this pilot flies this approach very accurately. The speed is nailed all the way through the steep 45 degree banked turn and carried right down to touchdown. He obviously is very competent flying this glider. It seems like he doesn't realize his predicament until later in the ground roll. One thing I've noted in Stefan Langer's videos is that by habit he seems to make long rollouts after landing. I wonder if that is a habit at this field? Touch down and roll up to the launch point to save pushing the glider... Also I see in other comments the mention of "homeopathic brakes" (love that remark!). Long ago I watched the senior instructor tell someone to test the wheel brake as soon as one had touched down, because it would be "unfortunate" to have some people-shaped dents in the leading edge.
I've flown a couple of clubs where we land one way and take off the other (including the current one), even with a fair bit of tailwind on either takeoff or landing. However, there's a limit to how much tailwind can be tolerated. We had a glider go through the fence trying to land with too much tailwind a few years ago. An issue with the wind blowing up the hill is that you get ridge lift. I noticed his vario was showing a climb just before he started his turn back.
Hi yes I agree, I suspect he didn't realise there was a problem until it was too late! And yes he was very accurate, just mis-judged the energy by only afraction
I disagree, ASW15 has very good, very effective air brakes!
There's actually one more thing you can do before resorting to doing a ground loop - pull the stick all the way in (full nose up). Not too early of course, otherwise you'll get airborne again. This pushes the tail skid into the ground and adds a good amount of additional drag. Works especially well on soft ground and also decreases the risk of plowing the nose into the ground if the main gear digs in too deep.
Not sure if the slipping maneuvers are named differently in different countries, but in the U.S. the one that you use to lose altitude is called a forward slip. The one you use to compensate for a crosswind while staying aligned with the runway is called a side slip. They are so horribly named that I usually have to remember them by thinking that if it were to cause me to spill my coffee, the direction it would go names the maneuver.
Nice detailed analysis! Good job!
I tell my flight students not to turn back when the wind is stronger than 15km/h. With such a strong wind you have so many options for flying a short circuit with the wind helping you. It pushs you back the whole time and therefore the length of useable runway in front of you increases. It also allows steeper approaches.
Another danger of turn backs is that your final turn gets to low, if you fly upwind far enough. You should avoid turns below 80m to be able to recover from stall and spins.
Agreed, if the field was flat. But in this case he had to land uphill even with 15 knots of wind, wouldn't you say?
@@PureGlide When landing in hilly terrain you definitely have to take the slope into account and slope is more important than wind, I agree with that. On your home airfield you know the slope and if you usually do downhill landings there, its ok to also do them after a rope break, I guess.
At the end he should have tipped the left wing for a very slow (and safe) ground loop
I think he tried but it was too late!
Touching down with excess speed is far better than holding off for the landing. The rolling drag, particularly if he gets the tail down too, will use more energy than floating in ground effect! That said, he did one thing really well and that was turning while he still had enough speed to avoid the parked van!
Agreed, cheers
Landing directly after coming out of a turn seldom is a good idea, only if your surrounding dictates it. You should always be set up for landing way before that. But of course i am only a sim player not a pilot so take that with a pinch of salt.
Yeah sometimes you have to!
Let's give him a shout out for veering away from the cars.
Yes!
Easy to say now, but he had room to do a full circuit and given the strong wind could have turned into wind for a halfway-along runway landing. Instead he extended into wind, but not enough. Even then after turning downwind he needed FULL airbrake and could have also side-slipped to lose height before running out of runway. But he survived and it could have been a lot worse.
I'm sure he thought it wasn't a problem.. until it was :) it only needed a tiny amount of less energy to have stopped perfectly at the top.
Good show! Great advice! Enjoyed it! Pity for the paint job!
Thanks 👍
I like how he has chosen the "zero yaw string" option ;)
Look further to the nose :)
@@PureGlide Haha well spotted! Shame about all the gunk behind it :D
I'd say the error happens even before the moment he turns in (too close and too high) over the winch to land. Given that: 1. it looks like a very short strip, 2. the wind is blowing very strongly and 3. He's right at or even above decision height (100 meters, probably slightly above taking altimeter lag into account), why did he not make a 360 immediately after the rope break and land towards the winch? With that wind he'd probably have been doing nearly a normal approach by the time he completed the turn. I've been taught to always call the "100 meters, shortened circuit" check the moment I feel I have the altitude to turn around, do a 360 (or even a normal circuit) and land. Before the call you land towards the winch (and wind), after the call you go around and land against the wind. Only on very weird and awkward fields is it ever a good idea to land with the wind, but it should only ever be a "I really have no other option" kind of thing. With 100 meters altitude, I feel there's no good reason to choosing to do a 180 in this scenario. All the other mistakes just follow from that failure to make the right decision at cable break.
If I had to say anything else I think on top of the stuff mentioned in the video I would also question his speed control. He's flying 110 to 120 for a lot of the approach. Many gliders just don't want to drop and speed brake effectiveness is severely reduced at increased speeds. You'd want SOME over-speed to compensate for the tailwind and wind gradient as you get close to the ground, but 110 to 120 is really pushing it. I think if he'd kept it at a solid 100 the whole way down he might have gained those few dozen meters he needed.
Yeah he only needed a tiny amount less energy and it would have been fine! Cheers
I do like your uploads ! The pilot (having ballsed up the circuit) didn't do so bad..... He didn't hit the car (well done) and chose a good set of scrub to arrest his landing. Poor chap - we've all landed a bit long or had a less than perfect circuit - but he got bit ! PS How do you shortcut to the calculator function AND auto convert Y to Z (km to knots) ??? Learning something new (I hope) every day !!!
Hi on a mac: command space to bring up spotlight, type what you want e.g. "110km/h" and press tab to see the different conversions (in Big Sur only, in previous OS you don't need to press tab, it shows you automatically the conversions)
@@PureGlide I love the internet & RUclips ! Good luck with the merchandise & thanks for the brilliant uploads & helpful advice !
I thought he was planning a beat up until the airbrake came out.
Glider wheel brakes - there isn't much inclination to test these while being positioned and I never saw it being done. With a powered aircraft it's a standard check while coming out of the bay.
When I was gliding years ago our club Blanik's wheel brakes produced only a faint hint of retardation and plenty of noise when used on roll out. Until, of course, after a year or so they were repaired unannounced (no aircraft paperwork). I was the first to fly it after the fix and when I used the usual huge handful of wheel brake handle, up went the tail and down went the nose and we stopped very well ! ' What was that ?!' After that I'd check brakes every time.
Ground loops. What do you think is the best way to stop the wheel digging into a soft surface or providing traction on a hard surface, in both cases causing damaging side load forces on the wheel structure ? I'd suggest locking the brake on a hard surface and no brakes on a soft surface. In between ?
Enjoyed your video and the dialsis,, good he's OK, paint required, 👍
Thanks Des!
Now, I've never flown a glider on my own, but I've driven a lot of tractor and I can tell ya, landing in the bushes sucks, even in a tractor!
A working brake would have indeed solved the issue. lesson learned is to do a proper pre-flight check (incl. checking a working brake). Another alternative i see is doing a full circle after the winch launch and landing upwind but without a working brake and going downhill would have probably resulted in going off the runway on the other end instead. Thanks for sharing your thoughts
Thanks Sven, yes agreed
Unfortunately as the author of the video explains, it ist very common for such gliders to just have a very bad working brake. It would just cost too much to refit a much better working brake
@@nilszitzelsberger8501 yes understandable but what price is safety worth? damaging the glider or worse the pilot is something you will not forgive yourself on for not having spend the extra money.
Any one of three of a working brake, not landing downwind in a strong wind, or doing his final turn further back would have kept him out of the bushes. Too many little errors building on each other unfortunately
@@Muggles87 Exactly right!
Make the student polish out the canopy and airframe scratches from sticks and branches rubbing, providing friction to stop the glider.
Yip I’m sure he would have had to
The glider looks like an ASW15. In my opinion it's important for a ground loop, to push the stick, so the tail is unloaded
It is indeed. Cheers!
Releasing air brakes before touchdown unlocked the gear brakes
My dad’s Piper Cub was hit twice while tied down in his parking space by gliders on landing when the student pilots lost control.
eek! sounds expensive
The air brakes on the earlier ASW15's (1970's) were not very effective not sure if they were ever modified later to overcome this. Coming from the timber and fabric type of gliders you had to be aware of this. We called it a HELP situation or High Energy Landing Problem if you were caugth.
The ASW 15 like a lot of gliders of that vintage has a drum brake, it's not very effective. There's no way for it to really shed the heat quickly.
Yeah although my Ventus cT weighs a ton thanks to the engine, and has a drum brake, but it can still stop?! Something else must be at play?
@@PureGlide I guess so! I have a 15 and the brake isn't very effective either. Maybe there just isn't enough mechanical advantage in pushing the shoes out? My recollection is the design is not like a vehicle drum brake that kind of self energizes from the forward movement. Maybe that's the difference...
@@AD7ZJ The wheel brake on my 15B works pretty well - I installed new shoes, cam and lever arm from Tost some time ago which made it strong enough to put the nose on the ground on hard braking. They aren't self energizing like car drum brakes though, as you pointed out. Having the wheel brake activated by the air brake handle means I needed to spend time carefully adjusting the wheel brake cable in order to get good tension on the cable without restricting the air brake travel.
The 15 does have quite powerful air brakes and it is well behaved in a slip and comes down like a rock in one so it should have been possible for the pilot here to get down with a lot more runway in front of him - which is an easy thing for me to say sitting in my living room typing on my computer. Rather more pressure up in the air. I've only ever done aerotow and haven't had a low altitude launch failure in my two decades of flying. Plenty of simulated ones (one per year minimum) but simulated and real aren't the same thing.
@@interfrastically mine works but I don't think it'll put on its nose. You're right about the air brakes, they work great! I haven't cared that much about the wheel brake because of that. Next time I'm working on it I'll try adjusting the cable a bit tighter.
@@AD7ZJ I swear there's some something beyond human understanding going on with glider wheel brakes! I've got a friend with a 19 - same exact wheel unit as mine and he did exactly the same things to it but it still is a little less effective than mine. A club Grob single with the exact same unit resolutely refuses to be anywhere near as effective as the 19's despite doing the same things to it. I've read about people modifying the shoes, bolt and cam so the self-energize like car drums but I'm not about to start filing and grinding parts based on what I've read in an old copy of "Soaring"!
Difficult to tell from the video but there might have been enough height to do a proper circuit and a landing in to windish. Certainly he did a poor circuit, there seemed to be a need to land asap, which meant he was too close to the landing point. The ground sped might have been around 65/70mph on touch down. I didn't hear the scraping sound of brakes until late on. A ground loop may snap the tail off. The pilot might benefit with more winch failure practice.
I was also thinking, when people, gliders, cars and hedge was coming up : “Dig in a wingtip and do a ground- loop to stop, RIGHT NOW!”
Yes and I think he did, but the speed was too slow to do it effectively!
@@PureGlide Yes, would have worked if he did it a bit earlier.
The pilot mentioned this in his debrief in German. He did intended to do that but he failed to put the stick forward.
@@Juhujalp Ok, thanks for the clarification.
@@PureGlide no he didn't... look at the stick moment
I learned something. It Can be useful. Thanks
Glad to hear that!
My experience is only in 20th century, in SGS-2-33. This glider had a nose so if you raise the tail, the nose skid will slow you quickly. Would that be an option this century in ASW-15?
Yeah I don't think this one had a nose skid at all, so not an option unfortunately!
Scratches from diving into bush are the worst!
Being impaled by a branch would be the worst!
a few notes from the text in the original video:
* wind situation: 30 km/h wind, 40 km/h gusts
* the winch launch was too fast at first, then too slow, leading to an automatic disconnect
* decision: he didn't want to make a short circuit and land in the usual direction due to the surrounding terrain. His turn to final would've been at around 30-50 m AGL
* ground loop: he actually intended to do a ground loop but was too stressed/overwhelmed in that moment. In the end, he decided that going into the bushes was better in terms of injuries and damage than going into the other glider or car
* wheel brakes on this type of glider are more of an alibi ("brakes are mostly homeopathic and is mostly noticeably by its squeeking")
At least he missed the white van with the left wing
Yes he turned the correct direction! Just unfortunate it had a slight roll downhill there...
I think he can make 1 more circle, before ho goes to land, when he is too near to RWY.
Yeah maybe
At least he sought out the biggest bush
Yeah a nice comfy bush :)
Tail wind landing..... gosh it can be tricky!
It sure can!
Increasing speed would have burnt off energy as drag is exponential. With Airbrakes fully open this is a very large effect.
Yes true
Did he have enough altitude after making the turn, to make one more 360???... Very close judgment call I would guess... Great stuff thanks for posting...
Yeah maybe, generally we don’t recommend it because you lose sight of the landing field
@@PureGlide I took that into consideration, but as a last resort to lose some altitude etc etc. Like I said it was a close judgement call. Thanks for responding.
If he extended a bit longer he would have been fine. Even if you cut the base to final short he can slip to kill altitude in the turn to final to have more runway to work with. As long as he is OK, that's all that matters!
During the intentional ground loop shouldn't you try to keep the tail wheel off the ground to prevent a broken boom?
Yeah ideally!
IF YOU HAVE TO SCREAM IN FEAR, DO IT LIKE YOU MEAN IT!
AHAHAHA AHAHAHA LOL
Haha 😂
I think he was vocalizing shitting himself!
Isn't that grey round knob (in front of the flight stick) the wheel brake?
My first reaction was that he should have slipped the glider but the 15 mph tailwind would have made that harder to do and less effective! I still would have tried it once I realized I was going to be long. But, any landing is a good landing, ha.
A tailwind doesn’t change how a side slip works, it simply affects the speed across the ground. But it would help get down!
As soon as he recognized he was high he could/should have entered a side slip, recovering by100ish ft. AGL...
Yeah maybe!
When he turned final and realized he was that high he could have lost some extra energy by diving steeper/faster will full spoilers.
We generally don't teach dives on final approach, but yes it might have helped. Ideally you have a bigger circuit and don't need to do such a manoeuvre.
@@PureGlide Here in Sweden it's in the basic training (demonstrated by the instructor).
Emergency overshoot maneuver and being taught over doing a forward slip for higher performance and effective airbrake gliders. I did one last year when I found myself high on final and it worked quite well.
@@davesgliding Interesting, thanks!
Looks like a good landing to me after an aborted winch launch. The other option could have been to land against the wind in a field close by. But maybe there was no option for that.
Yeah overall it was a great landing! Just mis-judged slightly the energy. If he had touched down a bit earlier, it would have been perfect.
Another trick he could have used is what we call a "glide path recapture" in France (rattrapage de plan). You go full spoilers, dive to the bottom of the glide or indeed even below, and then level out to recapture the glide path and bleed that excess energy. fast Means you can avoid a long landing and give yourself more time to brake.
Yeah interesting, although with only 300 feet to play with didn't have a lot of time to play!
Works well if you aim well short and have good airbrakes. Not so great if you aim the nose at the original aiming /reference point or are in a type with weak brakes as you just arrive at higher speed :-)
Yes, this isn’t taught in UK, but definitely works. Because your drag is proportional to square of velocity you get a lot more drag than at constant speed. More drag overall = less energy on arrival.
In the UK we call it an energy dump, it can be very useful when landing in very strong (wave) conditions, but not recommended from 300ft. I would have used a sideslip; also very handy if the brakes air brakes freeze up.
@@davehope5330 It is on my airfield in Scotland.
You hear the break squeaking
He did not do enough for taking the plane into the ground loop. He actually tried not to. Look at his legs and especially the stick in the last part of the roll.
I know, I know... Being smart after the fact is easy.
The pilot actaully panics at the very end and his training rutine does not allow him the think of the groundloop as an option. However as he starts to turn, not to hit the car and other planes, he should have forced the right wing into the ground with the aelerons and the siderudder and he would have turned even more and even groundlooped.
By the way a groundloop will in some cases break the plane. At the tail or at the wingrod.
But as you said, He did make many misktakes even early on. However being fatigued by a long flight or stress by landing with the wind at high speed is properly what put him over the egde and into a path full of mistakes.
I reckon he realised and put the wing down to try and ground loop, but was going too slowly for it to take effect. And then just rolled down the hill unable to stop it! Cheers
At 5:16 - Pulling hard on the airbrake handle and engaging the mail gear brakes should have put the glider onto its nose (except for wet crass) and stopped it short of the bushes. The sound I heard on the video seems to me to come from the main gear brakes and is a metal on metal sound?? That also could cause not being able to stop.
Great video! Well done
Thank you!
I personnally wouldn't recommand a sideslip with a fiber glider : Having discussed with Holigaus he said that it's fairly easy to break a tail (especially on the Janus) doing it. On top of that, the shape of the fuselage drastically reduces the efficiency of such a maneuver (compared to a sideslip performed on an older glider).
Another solution would be to spend some energy approaching faster to increase the efficiency of the airbrakes.
Really? that's the first I've heard that a side slip isn't appropriate on a fibreglass glider. Maybe it's just the Janus? Yes I guess a rapid descent is an option, although here in NZ we don't teach people to do it on final approach.
@@PureGlide Well the Janus doesn't seem to have a particularily fragile tail (compared to a Marianne for example) so I would assume that's something to be carefull about in any modern glider.
Here (in France) we're taught the maneuver I described. There seems to be a consensus among flight instructors I've met that a sideslip on a fibreglass glider isn't as efficient, and all of them recommanded to just degrade energy by increasing speed with airbrakes out to catch up with the plan.
@@PureGlide The Janus -A at least does tend to drop the nose / need full elevator as you exit the slip (with flap +brake). So if you are too slow / late on exit it's going to be a heavy landing. I suspect the 'C' is better here as general handling is much better but I've only flown one of those a few times. However I've never had a problem with any of the non-flapped 'fibre" gliders I've flown (so far...) . Just do the first practice slips on each type under easy conditions rather than wait for desperate circumstances before trying. Make allowance for higher wing loading by easing them out of the slip progressively and * early* so you can confirm adequate airspeed and pitch control and reduce airbrake if a bit on the slow side before the flare rather than full slip -full brake to last second. It's a skill every glider pilot who leaves the local circuit should have because sooner or later, for one of a million reasons you will muck up the approach and be too high and close :-) . And if there is a hydraulic disk brake conversion for your glider - fit it.
The only problem I have seen is with a Pegase (and to some degree withe the ASW 19). We had a pilot who was near to the upper forward c of g weight limit and through in a sudden and steep sideslip in the middle of the approach. The glider divided vertically. The pilot an instructor had a word with the CFI, who did not believe what the pilot said; and went and repeated the exercise, with similar results.
I then flew and repeated the exercise at height successfully and then on the approach. No problem, but I was (then) much lighter. After further experiment we were able to discover the cause of the problem. The glider has a relatively small tailplane and the turbulence from the fin blanked half the tailplane causing it to stall.
The Janus, being a flapped glider also has a small tailplane, perhaps it to suffers from a similar problem. I flew a visiting ex-RAFGSA Janus 15 years ago and the owner passed on the advice he had received from the RAFGSA, "don't spin it and don't sideslip it".
Now you tell me!! In the 80's, I flew a pioneering fiberglass ship, the Std Libelle, manufactured in 1971 with decent spoilers but no flaps and incredible ground lift. I had to slip it many a time and hardly ever lost my tail, ha.
That’ll rub right out with some wax.😂
lol yeah can't have been too bad!
As usual...very didactical video!! Thanks for it!!
My pleasure!
Great upload my friend 😅
Thank you! Cheers!
10:18 Is is possible, that he tried to Ground-Loop at this point? (He pulls the stick full-left)
Yes I think he did, but he wasn’t moving fast enough to do it! Then it was just a gentle ride downhill into the bush :)
Yea, no great braking with a 15 or a 20 unless a hydraulic update has been added.
Well worth doing I'd suggest