Now I need to recheck whether SP7 really is the best kedr round since it's supersonic compared to SP8's subsonic speed. Seems like it may have a similar breakpoint.
So basically, long barrels reduce the damage of your bullets with increasing range, compared to shorter barrels, because of bad mathematical implementation of bullet drop and damage reduction.
Another flaw: many rounds actually have greater damage & stopping power at longer ranges irl. A fast moving bullet passes right through you at point blank, whereas a round that’s at it’s sweet spot at the range it was ballistically designed for will transfer more energy to the target on impact. You get knocked over when the bullet is moving slower, you get sliced right through if the bullet is too fast.
I think if losing speed decreases dmg/pen, then increasing my velocity with muzzle breaks and barrels should increase it slightly as well. Especially since doing so loses out on long range dmg/pen
Yep, and that would be trivial to implement by simply changing the percentage to be relative to the round's "default speed" instead of the speed that it actually has when leaving the barrel.
Interestingly this solution would allow you to deal more damage/pen than the stated rounds stats. Not that this is a bad thing, but you could get magnum to one tap legs with the longest 153 barrel for example! Would create some interesting situations :)
I completely agree with lowering the head health. You are either going to die to a headshot or you aren’t. I’ve had a blacked out head maybe 2 times in my 4,000 hours. This would keep me from not getting my shooter borns with rounds like m995 and igolnik that happened multiple times last wipe. And now they made shooter born 125m so good luck if you aren’t using 7.76x51 or 7.62x54
Always love your content! On a side note, I'm always picking up some kind of scav gun in my raids when I can, usually a shotgun of some sort. I managed to kill 2/3+ of a 3 man around the golden pocket watch with cleaver headshots with 7mm buckshot at 5 yards or so before being killed by the last guy I didn't see. Shotguns are always a ton of fun early wipe!
Weird that the formula doesn't take round weight into account for energy transfer (damage) at that speed. Very useful to know coming from a real world firearm knowledge expereince, as it can be frustrating to not get the effects on target with something that should have worked well in real life, such as firing FMJ 5.56 55grain out of a 20 inch barrel. In real life, the fragmentation effect with 3300 fps is devistating, but in Tarkov you won't get anything like that, given how the barrel length works. Great info and analitics, man. Invaluable knowledge for building out my kit.
Tarkov turns out to be an action rpg more and more. The devs should implement a true physics based calculation. For example even at 500m, if a bullet is able to fully pen a helmet that should always kill, not counting fringe shots that only wound the skull. But I doubt they could deliver something like this.
@Gigabeef Have you considered a comparison of 5.25mm vs 6.5mm *but with an added dimension* - patterning. I have found the +15% accuracy means tighter groupings over distance, which is quite useful, especially through that tatty old MP-155 you took off that Scav last raid. Hopefully that was enough to arouse your interest 🙂💡
I honestly really enjoy the Video output and quality you have had since you went fulltime, these are definitely some perspectives I haven't seen before. Keep it up!
Just to confirm here people: If you going faster and you break in your car the car will decrease speed faster but the distance that you will cover to stop it will be greater due to your speed. Don't think that going faster will make you stop easier or quicker... :) Btw @Gigabeef at 2:20 your clip with the cars hit a cow. ^^
I've actually done a little bit of science teaching before, you'll probably not be surprised to hear. I enjoy teaching people about anything really! So long as I feel competent that is lol
Haven't watched the whole video yet, just wanted to chime in. I haven't played since the FIR Market update. I'm gonna have people screaming at me to "just play the game", but... Lowering the head hp probably isn't the answer, because that's going to affect bleeding, meaning mid to late wipe if Timmy finally gets into the game or if he started the wipe a few weeks late then he's going to be at a MASSIVE disadvantage in fights if he doesn't have something like a purple stim on hand that he can pop for every fight. Yeah, a calok doesn't take that long to use, but there'll be a lot of scenarios where you've got a blacked arm, extra damage went to the head and that blacked arm is now heavily bleeding mid fight. going from 35 to 20 head hp means you're a lot more susceptible to just bleeding out at a stupid fast rate while you're under pressure from that fight and maybe can't back off to stop that bleed and re-heal your head. Instead, you're probably better off just making it so heads take a flat 25% or 50% bonus damage from bullets that penetrate your helmet/face shield (so that blunt damage doesn't start one tapping people potentially). That's just my thoughts on that comment though, Nikita's probably going to hear your thoughts, go back to smoking some apple juice and then say "we need to spend time making these systems perfect before releasing updates"... before he then proceeds to add another new gun that completely shifts the game balance and makes something decent already completely obsolete.
Yeah tbh I don't really mind how it's done, a multiplier also works. I just believe in the principle of 'any round that penetrates a helmet should kill at any range' in a game like tarkov
It makes absolutely no sense for the damage and pen to be associated with the initial velocity of the gun. Longer barrel IRL always deals more damage and the bullets will pen more, that is especially true for 5.56x45mm which depends heavily on velocity to deal effective damage on flesh, remember that this round was made to be fired from the M16 20 inch barrel which would fire the bullet above 900m/s.
Magnum is great as it one taps heads to 50m+, if you can manage the recoil. Express has the same issues as 7mm, except starting at 35 damage can't tap with any pellet, you always need 2. Having 9 vs 8 helps on the overall damage though
@@Gigabeef Exactly and for barrels that reduce the velcocity you can ceep the current system where it loses damage/pen as soon as it leaves the barrel.
Honestly, I think they should seriously dial back the damage and pen loss on rounds over distance. Cause it's as far from realistic as possible in it's current state. All the rifle calibers in the game should be entirely lethal for headshots or a couple body shots out to like 200-300m. I say this because military baselines for a rounds performance in a rifle caliber is typically tested in the 300m-500m range. The penetration capability of military AP ammo is also tested for a 100m baseline. I think penetration of rounds shouldn't drop until after that 100m mark for rifles. For shotguns and pistol rounds, maybe cut it back to like 30m-50m. Somewhere in there. I think each category of ammo needs to have a minimum distance before the damage and pen are affected by velocity loss.
uhhh.... Based on your shown data at 2:53, 7mm is more aerodynamic than 5.25mm. Did you accidentally flip the ammo? Also, thoughts on express buckshot?
Totally crazy that rounds that get a higher initial velocity due to a longer barrel don't also get a damage/pen boost. Damage/pen should be based on velocity and not start with a static, arbitrary number and only go down. Also does it seem strange that 7.62x39 has a better ballistic coefficient than the smaller 5.56? That also seems off.
Off topic but the head HP thing, i would totally support if stomach got the 15 points, because holy shit it's annoying as shit to lose your stomach and barely take damage to anything else.
@@Gigabeef It only makes sense though. Faster bullet due to longer barrel means more pen. Only giving us the negatives due to a bad system makes no sense
@@Gigabeef You and I have actually discussed this on a previous video/last wipe… No, it’s not ok but we now seem to imply that this is best fixed via a nerf to head hp. I’m not sure that’s the best path but my original comment was on the delta you were suggesting which is huge. The igolnik comment was just for the laughs.
awesome video. you've always been covering topics that very few people and even few CCs would discuss. one question: how does the 5.25 compare to the express buckshot?
I've been having really bad luck with 7mm this wipe. I've been clicking scavs and pmcs heads at 10-20m and I don't think I've killed a single one yet, whereas before it would have dropped them. Thanks for the tip, I'll try 5mm moving forward.
ive been a fan of 6.5mm Express and Flechette for a few wipes now, i was wondering how that holds up to the other buckshot rounds. I enjoy shotguns even well into the wipe cycle, so its nice to see someone actually dive into the science of it and see how effective it truly is. i'll sub to this channel for more content like this
Express has the same issues as 7mm becuase it's fast but only starts at 35 damage. Flechette owns, I did a whole video on that cartridge - it has 31 pen so it wrecks armor, even the biggest in 4 shots max
@@Gigabeef that's awesome 😎 I'll have to give the 5.25 buckshot a try and see how well it performs, until I unlock Flechette. Thanks for the reply, King.
So basically they went to all the trouble of implementing a system whereby weapon modifications affect muzzle velocity, accuracy, etc, but then just used a single set of pre-baked numbers for modeling the terminal ballistics? Whyyyyyy? Totally agree on the head hitbox being reduced to 20 hp, btw. It's completely dumb that you can pen a helmet and not kill the lucky recipient.
Magnum buck has a much higher headshot falloff, 5mm buck can only 1 shot to the head at around 10ish meters. Magnum buck will headshot at a much further distance so it feels a lot stronger overall than any shotgun round.
@@moonday5521 is this only if one pellet of 5mm hits? Cause it would seem pretty ridiculous for multiple pellets to not down someone with a headshot outside of 10 meters
Magnum is bonkers, one taps heads with a single pellet to like 50m or something and deals mad damage output as 400 total starting damage means you die v fast to the legs too
You’re a datapoint genius. I remember you breaking down ballistics a while back and how subsonics could technically be amazing now with less drop off, but I never thought about the differences between drag coefficients! This calls for another look at the ammo chart!
I absolutely enjoy the way that you are bringing technical concepts in an entertaining way along with a "when to use what" conclusion at the end. Have followed your channel since last year and honestly believe it is one of the best for tarkov content these days; combining all the elements of many other resources in a more informative way better than what is expected from the larger channels (along with narrating in such a calming voice!) Thanks so much Gigabeef :)
6.5 express is like 7mm but even worse becuase it's even faster and has 35 damage to begin so it can never one tap the head with a single pellet. It gets an extra one, with 9 rather than 8 so that helps keep the damage about equivalent to 5.25 out to around 10m but it falls off after that too
Moving head hp down to 20 would make leg meta even more powerful due to how damage distribution through limbs works. You should rather have dmg multiplier against unprotected head so headshots from any range always kill. The ballistics change made helmets actually viable and increased ammo viability as well (now instead of using highest pen round for all situations you will have to decide your use case and prepare appropriately - while BS or Igolnik will still absolutely shred anyone at close range, you might want to opt for other ammo if you're going on Lighthouse or Shoreline. You can arguably kill people easier with 5.56 HP than M995 on long range :)
I think it's a lazy idea and I think BSG made it on purpose so some headshots don't kill you. The reality is no matter what game you play people don't like getting one tapped out of nowhere and giving players that ability should be something that is earned not taken for granted. People already cry too much about helmets not doing anything. Like you can craft igolnik for chump change if you craft the gun powders first, it's already a 400 ruble laser round that pens any armor in the game, I would expect it to have *some* downsides. And yeah btw what you described is realistic because m995 was never meant to be used for long range sniping, hell it was never even meant for m4s it's belt fed ammo for SAWs and other light machine guns. The 5.56 ammo you snipe with is the mk 316 SOST which is actually made for sniping out of an m4 platform and actually made to expand reliably at long range while still maintaining some penetration. So afaic they're moving in the right direction. People just want their pet round to kill everything in sight so brain turn off and W mouse 1
@@rodiculous9464 yeah well with the being said I have a clip from this wipe yesterday of a cheater bouncing 3 rounds off my level three helmet and killing me with the fourth round using igolnik. And no he wasn’t shooting long distance he was in east wing and I was in west wing. No reason a round such as igolnik should bounce 3 times.
The fact that 7.62x39 has a higher BC than 5.56x45 in this game tells you all you need to know about how clueless or biased the developers are. 7.62x39 is known for dropping like a stone past 200m due to having a poor BC, whereas 5.56x45 is a solid flat shooter with a good BC. The fact rounds are ending up less effective at range out of longer versus shorter barrels is absolutely absurd. In fact it is ass backwards with respect to reality, in a game that fancies itself realistic. This game is such a mess.
Good info. But I love my 7mm too though. Yesterday I clapped a duo chad group with them legs cut off using 8mm size shottie zsize with 7mm XDD... one after another ehehe
So basically, faster bullet lose more speed. Slower bullet lose less speed. Go faster not increase damage, but go slower decrease damage, so go slow mean keep more damage. Me understang.
Did you go to University and if so, what did you study? Almost all your videos are scientificly structured and very helpfull. You are doing a great job helping the tarkovians get thruw the ammo/pen/Vel.... jungle :D
I have a serious question so pls answer if you can . As we know the penetration power and the damage that the bullet does not only depends on what cal you use, it depends also on the muzzle velocity ao if you shot for example 5.45 round with a ak74U the penetration power and the damage will be nit as good as if you shoot the bullet with an ak 74M vor example, bcs the barrel on the ak74 is longer so the velocity ist higher. Will this be added to EFT?
I think eventually, this ballistics rework was the first part so I believe - hopefully we will see a more nuanced approach taken in a future update. But we will see, no idea when that will be or when it is planned for at the moment
I didn't know the mathematical specifics before now, only that 7mm felt horrible to use in-raid. That's why I just stick to 8.5mm, 6.5mm, and Flechette. I appreciate you breaking it down for us though. Makes a lot more sense now :)
Its too bad they tied damage drop off to the initial muzzle velocity. I wonder how difficult it would be for them to implement a standard velocity/damage/pen curve for each round ie round x does 50/30 dam/pen at 900m/s and 44/27 at 750 m/s so your 20 inch gun is doing the same damage at 100m as its 10.5in counterpart does at the muzzle, rather than both doing full damage at the muzzle and falling off from there. Faster bullets hurt more than slow bullets, all else being the same, although this would increase the disparity towards ridiculously long gun cqb meta.
Yeah I thought this is how it was done initially when 12.12 came in but sadly not. Would lead to some interesting situations where you could get a small multiplier on the base stats of the round, again using the shotguns you might be able to get magnum to one tap the legs with the longest mp153!
LITERALLY an hour ago I was headshot by a PMC using saiga with 7mm buckshot, and I didn't die. I won the fight, but my head blacked out in two seconds because of a light bleed. Until just now, I had no idea how I survived that shot lol and I extracted later with 2 completed quests, thanks to this lovely mechanic
I wonder why 5.25mm is more aerodynamic? They're both shooting round pellets, they should probably perform exactly the same ballistically I would suppose the main reason for all of this is the scaling in Tarkov, these aerodynamic and ballistic models are probably based (to some extent) on real life, while the scale of range you might encounter in Tarkov is much smaller, so all of the ranges of the guns are scaled way down. I think that is what leads to weird edge cases like this. In real life for example, 7.62 AKs had their irons zeroed at 400m, while in Tarkov, I don't even think objects render for the player at that distance, and if you somehow found a way to hit a shot at that distance, it MIGHT deal damage. When it comes to shotguns, at 10m (which for perspective is a little more than 10 steps away from the target) buckshot should only spread to a cluster about the size of your fist, while in Tarkov I am willing to bet the spread is much more dramatic, like it is in a lot of games. They probably need to exaggerate the effects of range on the bullets to make sure the player can notice it, since the scale of the maps and the distances most engagements happen in Tarkov would make the effects so subtle you probably wouldn't even notice them.
its been a long time since fluid dynamics class but im fairly sure a smaller surface area means lower drag, so smaller pellets have a better ballistic coeff? also its a game and bsg tweak numbers for feely reasons all the time, case in point the whole mosin saga and now we cant 1tap thorax with 54r anymore
@@GS-el8ll I mean, if they are both 00 Buckshot, the projectiles would be identical in size That is true, sometimes you just gotta tweak numbers to get a desired effect. Though in this case, I'm not sure if this is a desired effect or not
yess sir 6.5 is the best of the lvl 1 rounds and magnum is the best buckshot Flechette though is also a beast as it rips armour like butter, so once. 50bmg becomes unlocked i change between it and flechette depending on circumstance
So but wait... Would that mean that overall, 5.25 is still also superior to 6.5, since it'll ALWAYS require a second headshot, even if it's got a bit of an accuracy buff? It sounds like it... Although another benefit is faster velocity, reaching the target a bit quicker, so it's a give and take I suppose. At any decent range, I guess both would need a second headshot... It's tough to balance.
I feel better with magnum backshot - you are guaranteed kill PMC within 100 meters by 1 pellet. And you are able to one shot PMC in pointblank via stomach/leg shot :)
Thanks both! I did a vid about slugs that I mentioned at the end, had to limit it to about 4 of the most viable becuase the analysis gets too much but should be worth a watch
@@Gigabeef Glad I could see some representation of my city, I love your content bro always informative and useful. Thanks for taking the time to reply!
I would say it's the culmination of everything I've learned over the past 8 months since 12.12 was released, and the 2 years before that learning about the damage systems in the first place lol. Couldn't have done it without the guys behind the tarkov ballistics website though. They're the real heroes doing the crunching!
Can i just point out that 5.25 mm buck should have around 21 pellets in each shell. In fact just having 8 pellets in a shell would be to light and would lead to a high chance of the shell not having enough pressure to actually function.
I think they are planning on overhauling the shotgun rounds honestly. If they weren't it would be weird them to leave them the way they are. The reason each pellet does so much damage is because of a bug that has been fixed already so I imagine they are waiting to change pellet values for them to overhaul shotgun rounds
You suggestion to reduce the headshot death threshold is spot on. On first principle, it reduces complexity and overhead related to manual tweaking of ballistics across many ammo types. You are an excellent systems and process design thinker. Bravo, I wish you played while I was awake on PST.
I think there needs to be a pretty significant overhaul of bullet damage ever since the introduction of damage / pen drop off, there are certain calibres like "standard" bullets for 7.62x51 or 7.62x54R which should always one tap chest under normal circumstances within certain distances if the target is not armoured, and have the drop off be so that on a naked target, perhaps beyond 100m, it will cease to one tap chest, and 150m for 7.62x54R or something. So that when you use something really powerful, point blank, it will actually make a difference. Right now, whether you're using M80 or 9x18, it's still two for the chest if the target wears no armour, which makes very little sense.
this is really smart and i completely agree with this, it should have something like rusts damage drop off that is quite refined in my opinion. id pitch this to bsg any day
The way you describe their slow down (air resistance system) makes it that they implemented it incorrectly. Air resistance is not constant based on the initial velocity. It reduces as the velocity decreases. If 2 cars, 1 going 40 and another going 50, stop using gas at the same time, the 1 going 50 will go further
yes, that's explained here. The problem is that if you have more velocity, you lose it more quickly. He makes it clear, however, that the faster round will NEVER slow down to below the slower round's speed.
It is correctly implemented, it's the way that it then interacts with the damage and pen system. A round travelling at 600m/s from a 1000m/s starting point does less damage than the same round at 600m/s starting at 800 instead. That's the problem
Ballistic Coefficient of a bullet is it’s sectional density divided by its form factor. Sectional density is easy to calculate because it simply depends on the bullets caliber and weight. For example, the sectional density of a 175 grain .308 caliber bullet is: 175/7000/(.308^2) = 0.264 (the bullet weight is divided by 7000 to convert from grains to pounds). Anyone with a pocket calculator can easily figure out the sectional density of any bullet given it’s caliber and weight.
wait wait wait, what about magnums then? Are there any weird breakpoints where it doesn't kill the enemy to the legs in X amount of pellets for example?
Magnum is just straight up insane. Really good, better than all the others imo. That head tap out to 50m or something due to 50 damage a pellet is bonkers good, plus 400 potential damage output per shot is also insane - if you can stand the recoil increase!
I had one factory raid where I cleaned out the last of the pmcs and then filled scav after scav with 7mm and eventually died because it just wouldn’t kill them lol
In real life there is a point where more velocity equals less penetration due to the bullet fragmenting or deforming causing more drag wile passing through a medium. M193 above 2700 fps will usually fragment and not penetrate a person wile below 2400 fps will ice pick right through taking the remaining energy with it. Would be cool if tarkov could work this mechanism into the game.
Really hope they fix the velocity issue at some point. It'd be really cool to be able to boost performance of a cartridge by using a longer barrel as in real life. Right now there isn't really much of a point outside of sniping with the extra velocity. Short barrels are just better for now in just about every use case.
![Yailin La Mas Viral, @kreizyk.official - Dale 2 (Remix) [Video Oficial]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/JaYHBzgqz94/mqdefault.jpg)
Hope you enjoyed this thinly veiled ballistics lecture!🤣
Amazing video as always
Heaps man. This kind of info is huge in tarky and you present it better than anyone else I've seen. Great content
Now I need to recheck whether SP7 really is the best kedr round since it's supersonic compared to SP8's subsonic speed. Seems like it may have a similar breakpoint.
Regular bullets should have better ballistic coefficients, so while the principle is the same it's most extreme on the buckshot cartridges
Thanks for the insight. I'm using only shotguns this wipe and it's been interesting to say the least.
So basically, long barrels reduce the damage of your bullets with increasing range, compared to shorter barrels, because of bad mathematical implementation of bullet drop and damage reduction.
Basically yeah
This is so backwards. I thought bsg would know better lol
Another flaw: many rounds actually have greater damage & stopping power at longer ranges irl. A fast moving bullet passes right through you at point blank, whereas a round that’s at it’s sweet spot at the range it was ballistically designed for will transfer more energy to the target on impact. You get knocked over when the bullet is moving slower, you get sliced right through if the bullet is too fast.
@@bbhahaloljk exactly.
@@bbhahaloljk that would probably be a bit too complicated to implement
I think if losing speed decreases dmg/pen, then increasing my velocity with muzzle breaks and barrels should increase it slightly as well. Especially since doing so loses out on long range dmg/pen
Yep, and that would be trivial to implement by simply changing the percentage to be relative to the round's "default speed" instead of the speed that it actually has when leaving the barrel.
Interestingly this solution would allow you to deal more damage/pen than the stated rounds stats. Not that this is a bad thing, but you could get magnum to one tap legs with the longest 153 barrel for example! Would create some interesting situations :)
As vall and vss go brrrrr
I completely agree with lowering the head health. You are either going to die to a headshot or you aren’t. I’ve had a blacked out head maybe 2 times in my 4,000 hours. This would keep me from not getting my shooter borns with rounds like m995 and igolnik that happened multiple times last wipe. And now they made shooter born 125m so good luck if you aren’t using 7.76x51 or 7.62x54
I've been saying this for a while. M855 out of a 20inch m4 will smack so much harder than a 10.5
Always love your content!
On a side note, I'm always picking up some kind of scav gun in my raids when I can, usually a shotgun of some sort. I managed to kill 2/3+ of a 3 man around the golden pocket watch with cleaver headshots with 7mm buckshot at 5 yards or so before being killed by the last guy I didn't see. Shotguns are always a ton of fun early wipe!
Pestiliy just mentioned you and this video in his patch in depth. Big shout out!!
Thanks!
Your content is poping these days ! thanks again for this buckshot science video !
underrated channel. This man be mathing
This video is perfect as I’ve started using shotguns this wipe
Weird that the formula doesn't take round weight into account for energy transfer (damage) at that speed. Very useful to know coming from a real world firearm knowledge expereince, as it can be frustrating to not get the effects on target with something that should have worked well in real life, such as firing FMJ 5.56 55grain out of a 20 inch barrel. In real life, the fragmentation effect with 3300 fps is devistating, but in Tarkov you won't get anything like that, given how the barrel length works.
Great info and analitics, man. Invaluable knowledge for building out my kit.
Tarkov turns out to be an action rpg more and more. The devs should implement a true physics based calculation. For example even at 500m, if a bullet is able to fully pen a helmet that should always kill, not counting fringe shots that only wound the skull.
But I doubt they could deliver something like this.
@Gigabeef Have you considered a comparison of 5.25mm vs 6.5mm *but with an added dimension* - patterning.
I have found the +15% accuracy means tighter groupings over distance, which is quite useful, especially through that tatty old MP-155 you took off that Scav last raid.
Hopefully that was enough to arouse your interest 🙂💡
Yeah I've wanted to do something on actual spread for ages - barrel lengths, accuracy, chokes etc. Not got around to it yet but it's on my radar :)
This shocking fact about 12g will surprise you!
I honestly really enjoy the Video output and quality you have had since you went fulltime, these are definitely some perspectives I haven't seen before. Keep it up!
Cheers, appreciate it!
One quick trick, gunsmiths hate him.
Just to confirm here people: If you going faster and you break in your car the car will decrease speed faster but the distance that you will cover to stop it will be greater due to your speed. Don't think that going faster will make you stop easier or quicker... :) Btw @Gigabeef at 2:20 your clip with the cars hit a cow. ^^
LOL yeah I know kept just the end bit in cos it was funny, there is more where they're all stopped
Gigabeef shoulda been my science professor… I woulda passed lmao
I've actually done a little bit of science teaching before, you'll probably not be surprised to hear. I enjoy teaching people about anything really! So long as I feel competent that is lol
@@Gigabeef whoa it all makes sense! Haha
oh, thats quite counter intuitive, i thought muzzle velocity was the most important factor for falloff thank you!
Haven't watched the whole video yet, just wanted to chime in.
I haven't played since the FIR Market update. I'm gonna have people screaming at me to "just play the game", but...
Lowering the head hp probably isn't the answer, because that's going to affect bleeding, meaning mid to late wipe if Timmy finally gets into the game or if he started the wipe a few weeks late then he's going to be at a MASSIVE disadvantage in fights if he doesn't have something like a purple stim on hand that he can pop for every fight. Yeah, a calok doesn't take that long to use, but there'll be a lot of scenarios where you've got a blacked arm, extra damage went to the head and that blacked arm is now heavily bleeding mid fight.
going from 35 to 20 head hp means you're a lot more susceptible to just bleeding out at a stupid fast rate while you're under pressure from that fight and maybe can't back off to stop that bleed and re-heal your head.
Instead, you're probably better off just making it so heads take a flat 25% or 50% bonus damage from bullets that penetrate your helmet/face shield (so that blunt damage doesn't start one tapping people potentially).
That's just my thoughts on that comment though, Nikita's probably going to hear your thoughts, go back to smoking some apple juice and then say "we need to spend time making these systems perfect before releasing updates"... before he then proceeds to add another new gun that completely shifts the game balance and makes something decent already completely obsolete.
Yeah tbh I don't really mind how it's done, a multiplier also works. I just believe in the principle of 'any round that penetrates a helmet should kill at any range' in a game like tarkov
It makes absolutely no sense for the damage and pen to be associated with the initial velocity of the gun.
Longer barrel IRL always deals more damage and the bullets will pen more, that is especially true for 5.56x45mm which depends heavily on velocity to deal effective damage on flesh, remember that this round was made to be fired from the M16 20 inch barrel which would fire the bullet above 900m/s.
Wooooooow thank you mr beef. How dies with work with magnum and express?
Magnum is great as it one taps heads to 50m+, if you can manage the recoil. Express has the same issues as 7mm, except starting at 35 damage can't tap with any pellet, you always need 2. Having 9 vs 8 helps on the overall damage though
@@Gigabeef awe, i see magnum is the only good shotty ammo again, thank you mr beef
In my opinion they should change the damage drop so that the damage only goes down once it goes bewlow it´s default velocity.
Ah that's a really neat solution. Cap the damage/pen at 100% if it was gonna be over, and the rest can stay the same
@@Gigabeef Exactly and for barrels that reduce the velcocity you can ceep the current system where it loses damage/pen as soon as it leaves the barrel.
yesterday i killed two stack with 7mm, one shot each, but took me like 8 shots for a scav.
tarkov needs to use min and max velocitys for damage not muzzle to target
Honestly, I think they should seriously dial back the damage and pen loss on rounds over distance. Cause it's as far from realistic as possible in it's current state. All the rifle calibers in the game should be entirely lethal for headshots or a couple body shots out to like 200-300m. I say this because military baselines for a rounds performance in a rifle caliber is typically tested in the 300m-500m range. The penetration capability of military AP ammo is also tested for a 100m baseline. I think penetration of rounds shouldn't drop until after that 100m mark for rifles. For shotguns and pistol rounds, maybe cut it back to like 30m-50m. Somewhere in there. I think each category of ammo needs to have a minimum distance before the damage and pen are affected by velocity loss.
uhhh.... Based on your shown data at 2:53, 7mm is more aerodynamic than 5.25mm. Did you accidentally flip the ammo? Also, thoughts on express buckshot?
Higher number = more aerodynamic for the purposes of the ballistic coefficient
Thanks for the clarification, but yes as you say the system is a bit funny
Fuck dropping head hp, already helmets are fairly meh, was also nice making it not so easy to use assault rifles as long range snipers.
Totally crazy that rounds that get a higher initial velocity due to a longer barrel don't also get a damage/pen boost. Damage/pen should be based on velocity and not start with a static, arbitrary number and only go down. Also does it seem strange that 7.62x39 has a better ballistic coefficient than the smaller 5.56? That also seems off.
It's bigger so not sure - perhaps 556 makes up for it with its overall higher velocity?
Off topic but the head HP thing, i would totally support if stomach got the 15 points, because holy shit it's annoying as shit to lose your stomach and barely take damage to anything else.
Id be curious to see your take on magnum, especially since they limit you to 60
It's amazing, one taps heads to like 50m+ with any pellet!
I dont know why you didnt use 7mm vs 6.5mm instead, since express is the absolute lvl1 megachad ammo.
Wow! For a change, I feel like my IQ increased
Wow, I got 3kliksphilip vibes. Like it :D
Just because british?
That system is scuffed and needs a redesign.
so 1 sphere is more aerodynamic than another sphere.....
Damn... that is so fucking stupid. I hope they tie it to the ACTUAL velocity soon, not just how mutch of it is left
Yeah although that opens up some shenanigans like being able to increase the stated damage/pen. Would enjoy experimenting with that to be honest
@@Gigabeef It only makes sense though. Faster bullet due to longer barrel means more pen. Only giving us the negatives due to a bad system makes no sense
Anybody notice that 5.56 gas blocks are locked?
Pk 2 now I think. There's an alternative from mechanic 1
@@Gigabeef I didn’t see it when opening the trader, only when I searched through the flea market.
is this still true?
Just say what is better
20hp for head?!?! Didn’t take you for an igolnik apologist. Good stuff otherwise.
Haha you don't mind igolnik and m995 not killing after penetrating a ulach? Seems bizarre to me
@@Gigabeef You and I have actually discussed this on a previous video/last wipe… No, it’s not ok but we now seem to imply that this is best fixed via a nerf to head hp. I’m not sure that’s the best path but my original comment was on the delta you were suggesting which is huge. The igolnik comment was just for the laughs.
Fair enough :) hard for me to keep track haha, but yeah I don't really mind how it gets done if it fixes the issue
Well, I'm glad I dont play this game. This is one broken mechanic
awesome video. you've always been covering topics that very few people and even few CCs would discuss.
one question: how does the 5.25 compare to the express buckshot?
I've been having really bad luck with 7mm this wipe. I've been clicking scavs and pmcs heads at 10-20m and I don't think I've killed a single one yet, whereas before it would have dropped them. Thanks for the tip, I'll try 5mm moving forward.
I’ve had some similar moments and at first it caused my brain to lag and I just assumed I was having bad luck with my aim.
So, anything to report?
@@vanrick772 ya I used 5.55, it was okay, crafted 8.5 magnum and stopped caring.
Using the post-modification velocity as the denominator instead of the default round velocity is a big miss by BSG. Great explanation, thank you.
ive been a fan of 6.5mm Express and Flechette for a few wipes now, i was wondering how that holds up to the other buckshot rounds. I enjoy shotguns even well into the wipe cycle, so its nice to see someone actually dive into the science of it and see how effective it truly is.
i'll sub to this channel for more content like this
Express has the same issues as 7mm becuase it's fast but only starts at 35 damage. Flechette owns, I did a whole video on that cartridge - it has 31 pen so it wrecks armor, even the biggest in 4 shots max
@@Gigabeef that's awesome 😎
I'll have to give the 5.25 buckshot a try and see how well it performs, until I unlock Flechette.
Thanks for the reply, King.
So basically they went to all the trouble of implementing a system whereby weapon modifications affect muzzle velocity, accuracy, etc, but then just used a single set of pre-baked numbers for modeling the terminal ballistics? Whyyyyyy?
Totally agree on the head hitbox being reduced to 20 hp, btw. It's completely dumb that you can pen a helmet and not kill the lucky recipient.
Would love to see a similar breakdown of Magnum. It feels like I do netter with magnum than with any others (not counting Flechettes).
This
Magnum buck has a much higher headshot falloff, 5mm buck can only 1 shot to the head at around 10ish meters. Magnum buck will headshot at a much further distance so it feels a lot stronger overall than any shotgun round.
@@moonday5521 is this only if one pellet of 5mm hits? Cause it would seem pretty ridiculous for multiple pellets to not down someone with a headshot outside of 10 meters
Magnum is bonkers, one taps heads with a single pellet to like 50m or something and deals mad damage output as 400 total starting damage means you die v fast to the legs too
@@Gigabeef I got one tap thoraxed by a scav thru my 6b. Magnum confirmed INSANE
i’ve been watching for months and never realized what a small channel this is. incredibly well made and comprehensive.
Haha getting there slowly :)
The best channels I find are often still incredibly obscure.
@@Gigabeef i dont understand how youve only got 50k subs, should be more like 500k by this point, you deserve them for sure!
You’re a datapoint genius. I remember you breaking down ballistics a while back and how subsonics could technically be amazing now with less drop off, but I never thought about the differences between drag coefficients! This calls for another look at the ammo chart!
Tarkov is complex and I love it! Nothing better than a deep system to find the flaws, issues and min max strats hahah
I absolutely enjoy the way that you are bringing technical concepts in an entertaining way along with a "when to use what" conclusion at the end.
Have followed your channel since last year and honestly believe it is one of the best for tarkov content these days; combining all the elements of many other resources in a more informative way better than what is expected from the larger channels (along with narrating in such a calming voice!)
Thanks so much Gigabeef :)
Thanks! Appreciate it :)
Agreed!
HOW DO YOU MAKE SUCH AMAZING VIDEOS SO FAST
Working very hard hahaha
Pro tip:
When running at the enemy while shooting the bullets go even faster ;)
love the amount of content you drop in the past few weeks
Cheers!
You're so smart it's insane. The way you break everything down is amazing. You deserve so much more, your channel is incredibly underrated.
Thanks so much! Appreciate it :)
You know its a good video when I started thinking I was sitting on a university level course for a moment
i would be curious to see how the rest of buckshot ammo
Yeah, how's the 6.5 express compared? This video was extremely interesting
6.5 express is like 7mm but even worse becuase it's even faster and has 35 damage to begin so it can never one tap the head with a single pellet. It gets an extra one, with 9 rather than 8 so that helps keep the damage about equivalent to 5.25 out to around 10m but it falls off after that too
Gigabeef: Never use 7mm buckshot!
Me: **gets sniped by 7mm from a scav**
Moving head hp down to 20 would make leg meta even more powerful due to how damage distribution through limbs works. You should rather have dmg multiplier against unprotected head so headshots from any range always kill. The ballistics change made helmets actually viable and increased ammo viability as well (now instead of using highest pen round for all situations you will have to decide your use case and prepare appropriately - while BS or Igolnik will still absolutely shred anyone at close range, you might want to opt for other ammo if you're going on Lighthouse or Shoreline. You can arguably kill people easier with 5.56 HP than M995 on long range :)
Haha yeah that works too
I think it's a lazy idea and I think BSG made it on purpose so some headshots don't kill you. The reality is no matter what game you play people don't like getting one tapped out of nowhere and giving players that ability should be something that is earned not taken for granted. People already cry too much about helmets not doing anything.
Like you can craft igolnik for chump change if you craft the gun powders first, it's already a 400 ruble laser round that pens any armor in the game, I would expect it to have *some* downsides.
And yeah btw what you described is realistic because m995 was never meant to be used for long range sniping, hell it was never even meant for m4s it's belt fed ammo for SAWs and other light machine guns. The 5.56 ammo you snipe with is the mk 316 SOST which is actually made for sniping out of an m4 platform and actually made to expand reliably at long range while still maintaining some penetration. So afaic they're moving in the right direction. People just want their pet round to kill everything in sight so brain turn off and W mouse 1
@@rodiculous9464 yeah well with the being said I have a clip from this wipe yesterday of a cheater bouncing 3 rounds off my level three helmet and killing me with the fourth round using igolnik. And no he wasn’t shooting long distance he was in east wing and I was in west wing. No reason a round such as igolnik should bounce 3 times.
If you moved it down to 20 I could only imagine the unending amount of bitching about it being way easier to get killed
The fact that 7.62x39 has a higher BC than 5.56x45 in this game tells you all you need to know about how clueless or biased the developers are. 7.62x39 is known for dropping like a stone past 200m due to having a poor BC, whereas 5.56x45 is a solid flat shooter with a good BC.
The fact rounds are ending up less effective at range out of longer versus shorter barrels is absolutely absurd. In fact it is ass backwards with respect to reality, in a game that fancies itself realistic.
This game is such a mess.
Great content again man, I really dig your delivery and presentation, it's like Tarkov sorbet after some spicy Landmark or Pestily chilli.
Well when a scav lands 3 pellets in my head from 20m 7mm buckshot doesn't feel as underpowered xD
Good info. But I love my 7mm too though. Yesterday I clapped a duo chad group with them legs cut off using 8mm size shottie zsize with 7mm XDD... one after another ehehe
So basically, faster bullet lose more speed.
Slower bullet lose less speed.
Go faster not increase damage, but go slower decrease damage, so go slow mean keep more damage.
Me understang.
Ita truly bizarre that longer barrels have worse drop off. Good job spaghetti code bsg
I have 1.1k hours in this god damn game and didnt even know 5.25mm buckshot existed lol
So you're telling me that 7mm buckshot can't one shot me to the head from 100 meters? Tell that to the AI.
These daily uploads are awesome
I was wondering how I got headshot by 7mm and survived. Nice vid gigabeef
If this isn't motivation to jump into Factory with a semi-auto shotty idk what is. Thanks for another banger 😁
Did you go to University and if so, what did you study? Almost all your videos are scientificly structured and very helpfull. You are doing a great job helping the tarkovians get thruw the ammo/pen/Vel.... jungle :D
Indeed I did study physics :)
I have a serious question so pls answer if you can . As we know the penetration power and the damage that the bullet does not only depends on what cal you use, it depends also on the muzzle velocity ao if you shot for example 5.45 round with a ak74U the penetration power and the damage will be nit as good as if you shoot the bullet with an ak 74M vor example, bcs the barrel on the ak74 is longer so the velocity ist higher. Will this be added to EFT?
I think eventually, this ballistics rework was the first part so I believe - hopefully we will see a more nuanced approach taken in a future update. But we will see, no idea when that will be or when it is planned for at the moment
I didn't know the mathematical specifics before now, only that 7mm felt horrible to use in-raid. That's why I just stick to 8.5mm, 6.5mm, and Flechette. I appreciate you breaking it down for us though. Makes a lot more sense now :)
Magnum, 5.25 and flechette are all good for different purposes indeed :)
Its too bad they tied damage drop off to the initial muzzle velocity. I wonder how difficult it would be for them to implement a standard velocity/damage/pen curve for each round ie round x does 50/30 dam/pen at 900m/s and 44/27 at 750 m/s so your 20 inch gun is doing the same damage at 100m as its 10.5in counterpart does at the muzzle, rather than both doing full damage at the muzzle and falling off from there. Faster bullets hurt more than slow bullets, all else being the same, although this would increase the disparity towards ridiculously long gun cqb meta.
Yeah I thought this is how it was done initially when 12.12 came in but sadly not. Would lead to some interesting situations where you could get a small multiplier on the base stats of the round, again using the shotguns you might be able to get magnum to one tap the legs with the longest mp153!
LITERALLY an hour ago I was headshot by a PMC using saiga with 7mm buckshot, and I didn't die. I won the fight, but my head blacked out in two seconds because of a light bleed. Until just now, I had no idea how I survived that shot lol
and I extracted later with 2 completed quests, thanks to this lovely mechanic
Wahey!
@@Gigabeef would you think express buck is any better than the 5mm?
I wonder why 5.25mm is more aerodynamic? They're both shooting round pellets, they should probably perform exactly the same ballistically
I would suppose the main reason for all of this is the scaling in Tarkov, these aerodynamic and ballistic models are probably based (to some extent) on real life, while the scale of range you might encounter in Tarkov is much smaller, so all of the ranges of the guns are scaled way down. I think that is what leads to weird edge cases like this.
In real life for example, 7.62 AKs had their irons zeroed at 400m, while in Tarkov, I don't even think objects render for the player at that distance, and if you somehow found a way to hit a shot at that distance, it MIGHT deal damage. When it comes to shotguns, at 10m (which for perspective is a little more than 10 steps away from the target) buckshot should only spread to a cluster about the size of your fist, while in Tarkov I am willing to bet the spread is much more dramatic, like it is in a lot of games.
They probably need to exaggerate the effects of range on the bullets to make sure the player can notice it, since the scale of the maps and the distances most engagements happen in Tarkov would make the effects so subtle you probably wouldn't even notice them.
Tarkov is at least better than most games at representing shotguns, but yeah it's probably overstated here too
its been a long time since fluid dynamics class but im fairly sure a smaller surface area means lower drag, so smaller pellets have a better ballistic coeff?
also its a game and bsg tweak numbers for feely reasons all the time, case in point the whole mosin saga and now we cant 1tap thorax with 54r anymore
@@GS-el8ll I mean, if they are both 00 Buckshot, the projectiles would be identical in size
That is true, sometimes you just gotta tweak numbers to get a desired effect. Though in this case, I'm not sure if this is a desired effect or not
my favorite shotgun shell is 8.5mm Magnum ... i like the Damage Buff, workbench lvl1
Magnum is cracked, insane damage output I agree
6.5 every time and always. Until magnum buck and .50 bmg becomes unlocked :)
yess sir
6.5 is the best of the lvl 1 rounds and magnum is the best buckshot
Flechette though is also a beast as it rips armour like butter, so once. 50bmg becomes unlocked i change between it and flechette depending on circumstance
So but wait... Would that mean that overall, 5.25 is still also superior to 6.5, since it'll ALWAYS require a second headshot, even if it's got a bit of an accuracy buff? It sounds like it... Although another benefit is faster velocity, reaching the target a bit quicker, so it's a give and take I suppose. At any decent range, I guess both would need a second headshot... It's tough to balance.
Super helpful, what a simple well-laid out video :)
I feel better with magnum backshot - you are guaranteed kill PMC within 100 meters by 1 pellet. And you are able to one shot PMC in pointblank via stomach/leg shot :)
Genuine new info, excellent 😀
Now make part 2 comparing all pellet ammos 😎
@@BloodHawkFZX we need slugs ! ! ! !
Thanks both! I did a vid about slugs that I mentioned at the end, had to limit it to about 4 of the most viable becuase the analysis gets too much but should be worth a watch
1:19 hey! that's literally 3 blocks away from my apartment! this is Autoroute 15 in Montreal, Canada, what is this doing in a Gigabeef video!!!!
Haha wow! I didn't know
@@Gigabeef Glad I could see some representation of my city, I love your content bro always informative and useful. Thanks for taking the time to reply!
How long did it take for you to find all the ballistics and information for this video 😂
I would say it's the culmination of everything I've learned over the past 8 months since 12.12 was released, and the 2 years before that learning about the damage systems in the first place lol. Couldn't have done it without the guys behind the tarkov ballistics website though. They're the real heroes doing the crunching!
Love your content! It has been getting better and better! Can't wait until you are a gigaman (100k subs)
Thanks man :) appreciate you!
Can i just point out that 5.25 mm buck should have around 21 pellets in each shell. In fact just having 8 pellets in a shell would be to light and would lead to a high chance of the shell not having enough pressure to actually function.
I think they are planning on overhauling the shotgun rounds honestly. If they weren't it would be weird them to leave them the way they are. The reason each pellet does so much damage is because of a bug that has been fixed already so I imagine they are waiting to change pellet values for them to overhaul shotgun rounds
The quality of this video production is outstanding
Thanks! Been working on that side recently
You suggestion to reduce the headshot death threshold is spot on. On first principle, it reduces complexity and overhead related to manual tweaking of ballistics across many ammo types. You are an excellent systems and process design thinker. Bravo, I wish you played while I was awake on PST.
Thanks :) appreciate it!
This is EXACTLY what I come here for, big up bro
Yaya love it! Thanks :)
I think there needs to be a pretty significant overhaul of bullet damage ever since the introduction of damage / pen drop off, there are certain calibres like "standard" bullets for 7.62x51 or 7.62x54R which should always one tap chest under normal circumstances within certain distances if the target is not armoured, and have the drop off be so that on a naked target, perhaps beyond 100m, it will cease to one tap chest, and 150m for 7.62x54R or something. So that when you use something really powerful, point blank, it will actually make a difference. Right now, whether you're using M80 or 9x18, it's still two for the chest if the target wears no armour, which makes very little sense.
this is really smart and i completely agree with this, it should have something like rusts damage drop off that is quite refined in my opinion. id pitch this to bsg any day
When did M80 ever one-shot the chest ?
@@fookinkoont Uh he didn't say that?
Read his comment again maybe
.338 is the new lps 54r, its power creep
@@GS-el8ll True
Every time I have a question about Tarkov mechanics, along comes Gigabeef to the rescue!
The way you describe their slow down (air resistance system) makes it that they implemented it incorrectly. Air resistance is not constant based on the initial velocity. It reduces as the velocity decreases. If 2 cars, 1 going 40 and another going 50, stop using gas at the same time, the 1 going 50 will go further
yes, that's explained here. The problem is that if you have more velocity, you lose it more quickly. He makes it clear, however, that the faster round will NEVER slow down to below the slower round's speed.
It is correctly implemented, it's the way that it then interacts with the damage and pen system. A round travelling at 600m/s from a 1000m/s starting point does less damage than the same round at 600m/s starting at 800 instead. That's the problem
Ballistic Coefficient of a bullet is it’s sectional density divided by its form factor. Sectional density is easy to calculate because it simply depends on the bullets caliber and weight. For example, the sectional density of a 175 grain .308 caliber bullet is: 175/7000/(.308^2) = 0.264 (the bullet weight is divided by 7000 to convert from grains to pounds). Anyone with a pocket calculator can easily figure out the sectional density of any bullet given it’s caliber and weight.
wait wait wait, what about magnums then? Are there any weird breakpoints where it doesn't kill the enemy to the legs in X amount of pellets for example?
thats what i wanna know, ive crafted a shit ton but idk if its better than 5.25mm or not
Magnum is just straight up insane. Really good, better than all the others imo. That head tap out to 50m or something due to 50 damage a pellet is bonkers good, plus 400 potential damage output per shot is also insane - if you can stand the recoil increase!
This was so professional i thought i was watching the science channel
Thanks!
I had one factory raid where I cleaned out the last of the pmcs and then filled scav after scav with 7mm and eventually died because it just wouldn’t kill them lol
In real life there is a point where more velocity equals less penetration due to the bullet fragmenting or deforming causing more drag wile passing through a medium. M193 above 2700 fps will usually fragment and not penetrate a person wile below 2400 fps will ice pick right through taking the remaining energy with it. Would be cool if tarkov could work this mechanism into the game.
1:19 casual Montreal footage.. I love my home :D
Haha I did wonder where these places were - now I know!
Really hope they fix the velocity issue at some point. It'd be really cool to be able to boost performance of a cartridge by using a longer barrel as in real life. Right now there isn't really much of a point outside of sniping with the extra velocity. Short barrels are just better for now in just about every use case.
with 5.25 you unable to kill PMC in a head, and that means that this is a trash buckshot, well done
awesome content the past few weeks this is awesome. as ive always used 5mm over 7 and no one would listen to me lmao now i show em this.
I will still be using 7mm buckshot, but i will be sticking with it cause it's only 35 rubles a round and I bring 300 into interchange with me.
Reducing the head HP is treating a symptom of this mechanical bug/misbehaviour. A better system is needed.
I would love to see the same breakdown with slugs too.
Edit: Just saw you added it at the end, thanks Giga!