If you haven't stopped by there yet, I highly recommend joining the Ravenholdt Discord: there are a ton of smart rogue mains there as well as our main theorycrafters for each of the 3 specs. Without their knowledge videos like this would be a lot harder to make or be as accurate as possible. discord.com/invite/ravenholdt The copy string for the build I've been using is: BQQAOB/7AZ//CwQOf4fPMswHVDAAUSEEBJJJJJJSSiQgEJSAkIAAAAAAAJBpJlkgkkkSAAAA The Ravenholdt version, which doesn't take grappling hook but is a little bit more DPS is: BQQAOB/7AZ//CwQOf4fPMswHVDAAUSEkEkkkkkkIJJCBSISAkIAAAAAAAJBpJlkgkkkSAAAA I plan on doing at least a few build videos for each spec, though I'll be focusing on Mythic+ first and then raid after, most likely. I hope this video is useful to you folks, though! If you have any questions, feel free to ask any time. ^^ Have a great day.
I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks Grappling Hook is more important than 1-2% more dps. Can't do the damage if you can't get yourself out of the fire quickly. Grapple out, Shadowstep back in and keep hammering away!
I take the +15 movement speed talent in the rogue tree and the outlaw tree for +30 because that's what keeps me alive in dungeons. It's important so I agree
I never thought I would give up the hook, but I am also playing assassination for ST on raid, and since it can't use hook, I look at it as an opportunity to keep both builds using the same abilities and keybinds as much as possible.
100% exactly, Jason. Having multiple movement types is a massive advantage in my opinion. Literally it's a 1.3% DPS loss for me to run it, but I don't give a damn. xD
Definitely a valid option, having higher base move speed is very nice. The Hidden Opportunity/Dance build takes like NOTHING for mobility, it feels like I'm playing a ret paladin with how much slower it is compared to my preferred setup. lol
This is by far the best talent build that I have used on my Rogue. I still think I am lacking a little bit with the DPS, but I think its more me than the build. But very well done sir.
Yeah I greatly prefer this build as well, John. It feels a lot smoother and gives you access to much more of your toolkit while only sacrificing a small amount of potential DPS. And you're very welcome, glad you enjoyed the video. ^^
Happy to help! Glad the WeakAuras were useful to you, I did a pretty big overhaul to my setup with Dragonflight launch so that way there were less things in the way while still hopefully covering all the important information someone might need.
@@joaovasco3969 Hm, that's hard to say, João. Both have a lot of extra rules to keep in mind, and Keep it Rolling is a kinda janky cooldown with the bugs and weird interactions it has. I'd say if you got used to that part, then the build is debatably more consistent. The HO builds can feel very smooth and revolve around 2 procs, but does come with its own caveats to use it well and the proc dependency can make it feel very bad when you aren't getting enough of them.
Thanks! My random build slapped together while levelling turned out very close to this build. I'm enjoying it a lot and will look to optimise it further based on your build here. Thanks also for sharing your weak auras setup - your UI looks really good! Cheers : )
Thank you for the kind words, Jack! Yeah I am a very big fan of the ER/KiR setup, you keep virtually all your mobility and utility while still doing good damage, so that's a win/win in my book. ^^ And you're welcome for the WAs! I don't know all the cool LUA tricks you can do with them so for the most part they're pretty simple, but they work for my needs and I seem to be the odd one that likes to use progress bars for tracking buffs/debuffs. I also pick very contrasting colors to make it more obvious what I have/don't have active at the moment. Some people probably think it's ugly but I go for functionality. xD (Also, my apologies for the way late reply- I had been getting a lot of comments on one of my more generic videos for crafting orders and it clogged up my unreplied comments bar so I missed a lot of these)
Thank you dude you are a life saver. I didn’t like Dance/Ambush build because I thought it didn’t fit the theme of outlaw. Also could you tell me the SnD and Roll the Bones buff weak aura? Thanks!
You're very welcome, Vatiskap. All the weakauras in the video are the ones I made, the link to my Wago collection should be in the description section of all my videos. ^^
I switched to this after being frustrated by the Hidden Opportunity/Dance build and find it is incredibly easier to play, which means I end up doing more damage and being more consistent, as well as having more brain power left over for doing mechanics. The other build, with it's procs and skill bar stance-swapping, was just too much. I also found that I was overcapping on energy, CP, or sometimes even both while having multiple high priority abilities off cooldown and no idea what to press next. The APM on the ambush build is insane, constantly hitting different abilities on every GCD and way too many decisions to make constantly. This build fixes all of that. Like you said, it's basically Shadowlands Kyrian rogue with the Blunderbuss, Greenskins, and Kyrian legendaries.
Yeah I just found this build easy to pick up due to playing so many variants in Shadowlands, it also allows me to grab every utility perk I want plus literally all the movement speed bonuses other than Hit and Run. The Shadow Dance build also has a 'feast of famine' feel to it- if you get good procs of ambushes/pistol shots, it is nice, otherwise it can feel REALLY starved. I'm happy with this setup but want to try as many builds as I can to share with others and give insight/alternatives.
I'll definitely give this a go then - I've been using the Hidden/Dance build and enjoy it, but definitely make a bunch of mechanical blunders because I need to look at my action bar so much.
@@tschomb1332 The only big 'goof' you can make with this build is using Keep it Rolling at a bad time, since it can consume Loaded Dice currently, and then you have to remember that you can reroll only ONE time after using Keep it Rolling for the buffs to carry over that you extended into your new roll. It's kinda hard to explain in writing but if you give it a try, I recommend smacking a target dummy for a bit just to see how re-rolling works with this build. If you can get it right, it's a big advantage and makes you have lots of buffs far more often.
@@ZeraTheRedRogue Makes sense. Trying it now in mid level mythics and having a good time - Do you think it'd be worth while to make a WA that highlights dispatch when you're on an anima charged CP? Or one that highlights keep it rolling when you have good RTB buffs on
@@tschomb1332 Personally my combo point tracker just changes to a different color if I'm on an Anima-charged CP so I know to use it which is more than enough for me, and I don't have a Keep it Rolling weakaura other than knowing it is able to be used. This is because I am not really a super advanced WA creator and most of the ones I've made are very simplistic, so I don't know how I'd do the LUA for making it show a warning when I have good buffs other than just remembering what I rolled, when I rolled it, etc.
In a cleave opener you want to flurry before ambush so the ambush spreads, and you want to build to BtE first and foremost, then build to slice after. Minor optimisations but that's what's suggested on Ravenholdt and it makes a big difference on pull!
Edit: I thought this was on my shadow dance build video, whoops. The thing with this build is you use adrenaline rush from stealth, which gives full 7 CP thanks to Improved Adrenaline rush. This means you already have slice and dice up before you even start the pull. Also, this build doesn't cast Ambush basically ever because it doesn't use the subterfuge talent. For the Hidden Opportunity/Shadow Dance build, everything you said is 100% true. I just put up a video discussing that build and thought this was a comment from that one, hence my original response.
recently switched to this build over hidden/shadow build. Hell of a lot more fun to play. Question, what are you running in raid? Hidden opp/dance is simming +1k better than keep it rolling builds
I actually am guildless at the moment so I've mainly just been doing keys to try and get more gear so pugging into raid won't be as painful. I've noticed Liquid's outlaw rogues are running Keep it Rolling/ER builds, but I don't know if there's a bigger reason behind that.
@@ZeraTheRedRogue also, is there a few bugs atm? stealth pop AR for full combo points then roll the bones and it drops me to 2 combo points sometimes.... Keep it rolling and the roll the bones seems to be iffy at best or im just supremely unlucky with my rolls
@@Thomo316 Hm, I don't think I've seen that one happen yet, Andrew. The only annoying bug I'm aware of is Keep it Rolling consuming your Loaded Dice proc if you don't spend it first, and the fact you can hit Keep it Rolling before you even have any buffs and it will still go on cooldown. xD KiR definitely plays heavily into Roll the Bones and re-roll logic in general, as well as counting a little bit on good Count the Odds procs to get really good use out of it, which is why I do consider it a potential con for people that dislike having to keep track of so many rules/conditions for Roll the Bones.
I'm not certain, though I believe rotation addons such as HeroRotation/Hekili will only be able to give a very loose guideline due to how many conditions outlaw can have at any point. I've not used it personally, however, so I may be mistaken.
Hi Red rogue ! I'm not an expert with english langage, currently, what is your favorite build concerning Outlaw ? i new with rogue and i dont really understand shadow dance mecanics
Personally, I prefer this build (The Keep it Rolling/Echoing Reprimand Setup). It offers you a lot of mobility/defensives without sacrificing much DPS at all. A lot of people are using the Dance builds but I just don't care for the way they gameplay feels. Hopefully that answers your question, Thibaut, if not then feel free to ask about anything you might need clarification on. ^^
So, just a little small recap. Keep Echoing Reprimand on CD, and when is the best time to use Keep it Rolling? I have mostly used it near the end of life of a big boss in a raid or Mythic. Most open world content, accept for WBs, I feel I dont need to use it. Also what is the Weak Aura you use for this build?
Yup, Echoing Reprimand should be used on Cooldown, since even if you use it at the end of a trash pack, the anima-charged CPs are saved until 45 seconds expire, which is exactly how long the cooldown of Echoing Reprimand. For Keep it Rolling, it's not so simple. Ideally you'll get lucky and your timings of when adrenaline Rush is up for loaded dice, plus just having decent buffs up will allow you to just send Keep it Rolling as close to on cooldown as possible, however if you're getting terrible rolls then you'll end up sitting on it for couple minutes at a time which is unfortunate. For world content it's fairly inconsequential, and this guide is specifically targeted at Mythic+. For my weakauras, I have all of them located in a collection on wago.io, the link to my collection should be in the description to all my videos.
Thank you, Ucek. ^^ That I believe is a WA called GCD history, if I'm not mistaken. I'd have to double check, though, it may be the Streamer plugin on Details if I got rid of that WA.
It's mainly just a Legion PvP set (Demonic? I think?) that matches the antorus raid tier, but in red since it's the horde setup. It turns blue/gold if you're alliance. I also use the Fencer's Reach mage tower weapon appearance which is unobtainable, the Parrotfeather Cloak, the Swashbuckler's eyepatch, and a BfA green belt that I forget the name of. xD
Sorry I missed this comment, Alexander. I do have all my weakauras (including the FtH one) up on wago.io, the link to my collection should be in the description of all my videos.
If you swap grappling hook for Weaponmaster, it sims about 2% lower than the Shadow Dance Opportunity build. If you choose to use grappling hook too, it's about 3.2% lower. (These were the numbers I came up when simming MY character though, so it may be slightly different for you, but I doubt too much) With this build you gain multiple movement abilities, a shorter sprint, evasion and numbing poison, which I think rounds out the M+ toolkit very nicely. But some people would prefer 2-3% more DPS, so that's up to you to decide.
Yeah I know, a bunch of jerks. It sounds like the impact is fairly minimal to overall DPS though, and I guess it's 1 less combo point to worry about hitting? >>; Something of a silver lining, I guess.
If you haven't stopped by there yet, I highly recommend joining the Ravenholdt Discord: there are a ton of smart rogue mains there as well as our main theorycrafters for each of the 3 specs.
Without their knowledge videos like this would be a lot harder to make or be as accurate as possible. discord.com/invite/ravenholdt
The copy string for the build I've been using is: BQQAOB/7AZ//CwQOf4fPMswHVDAAUSEEBJJJJJJSSiQgEJSAkIAAAAAAAJBpJlkgkkkSAAAA
The Ravenholdt version, which doesn't take grappling hook but is a little bit more DPS is: BQQAOB/7AZ//CwQOf4fPMswHVDAAUSEkEkkkkkkIJJCBSISAkIAAAAAAAJBpJlkgkkkSAAAA
I plan on doing at least a few build videos for each spec, though I'll be focusing on Mythic+ first and then raid after, most likely. I hope this video is useful to you folks, though! If you have any questions, feel free to ask any time. ^^ Have a great day.
I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks Grappling Hook is more important than 1-2% more dps. Can't do the damage if you can't get yourself out of the fire quickly. Grapple out, Shadowstep back in and keep hammering away!
I take the +15 movement speed talent in the rogue tree and the outlaw tree for +30 because that's what keeps me alive in dungeons. It's important so I agree
I never thought I would give up the hook, but I am also playing assassination for ST on raid, and since it can't use hook, I look at it as an opportunity to keep both builds using the same abilities and keybinds as much as possible.
100% exactly, Jason. Having multiple movement types is a massive advantage in my opinion. Literally it's a 1.3% DPS loss for me to run it, but I don't give a damn. xD
Definitely a valid option, having higher base move speed is very nice. The Hidden Opportunity/Dance build takes like NOTHING for mobility, it feels like I'm playing a ret paladin with how much slower it is compared to my preferred setup. lol
This is by far the best talent build that I have used on my Rogue. I still think I am lacking a little bit with the DPS, but I think its more me than the build. But very well done sir.
Yeah I greatly prefer this build as well, John. It feels a lot smoother and gives you access to much more of your toolkit while only sacrificing a small amount of potential DPS. And you're very welcome, glad you enjoyed the video. ^^
nice guide. love the wa package nice and simple with not to many things to stare at gonna be my new go to thanks for that.
Happy to help! Glad the WeakAuras were useful to you, I did a pretty big overhaul to my setup with Dragonflight launch so that way there were less things in the way while still hopefully covering all the important information someone might need.
Awesome, i was hating the ambush pistol shot
dude, i basically run this exact spec and people are sleeping on it! AOE might not be quite as strong but really good sustained and fun!
Yeah the fact I keep 100% of my movement speed/utility and defensives is huge in my opinion, while losing a minor amount of DPS at most. xD
What would be the easiest to play less prone to mistakes Ho build or Kir?
@@joaovasco3969 Hm, that's hard to say,
João. Both have a lot of extra rules to keep in mind, and Keep it Rolling is a kinda janky cooldown with the bugs and weird interactions it has. I'd say if you got used to that part, then the build is debatably more consistent. The HO builds can feel very smooth and revolve around 2 procs, but does come with its own caveats to use it well and the proc dependency can make it feel very bad when you aren't getting enough of them.
Thanks! My random build slapped together while levelling turned out very close to this build. I'm enjoying it a lot and will look to optimise it further based on your build here. Thanks also for sharing your weak auras setup - your UI looks really good! Cheers : )
Thank you for the kind words, Jack! Yeah I am a very big fan of the ER/KiR setup, you keep virtually all your mobility and utility while still doing good damage, so that's a win/win in my book. ^^ And you're welcome for the WAs! I don't know all the cool LUA tricks you can do with them so for the most part they're pretty simple, but they work for my needs and I seem to be the odd one that likes to use progress bars for tracking buffs/debuffs. I also pick very contrasting colors to make it more obvious what I have/don't have active at the moment. Some people probably think it's ugly but I go for functionality. xD
(Also, my apologies for the way late reply- I had been getting a lot of comments on one of my more generic videos for crafting orders and it clogged up my unreplied comments bar so I missed a lot of these)
Thank you dude you are a life saver. I didn’t like Dance/Ambush build because I thought it didn’t fit the theme of outlaw. Also could you tell me the SnD and Roll the Bones buff weak aura? Thanks!
You're very welcome, Vatiskap. All the weakauras in the video are the ones I made, the link to my Wago collection should be in the description section of all my videos. ^^
I switched to this after being frustrated by the Hidden Opportunity/Dance build and find it is incredibly easier to play, which means I end up doing more damage and being more consistent, as well as having more brain power left over for doing mechanics. The other build, with it's procs and skill bar stance-swapping, was just too much. I also found that I was overcapping on energy, CP, or sometimes even both while having multiple high priority abilities off cooldown and no idea what to press next. The APM on the ambush build is insane, constantly hitting different abilities on every GCD and way too many decisions to make constantly. This build fixes all of that. Like you said, it's basically Shadowlands Kyrian rogue with the Blunderbuss, Greenskins, and Kyrian legendaries.
Yeah I just found this build easy to pick up due to playing so many variants in Shadowlands, it also allows me to grab every utility perk I want plus literally all the movement speed bonuses other than Hit and Run. The Shadow Dance build also has a 'feast of famine' feel to it- if you get good procs of ambushes/pistol shots, it is nice, otherwise it can feel REALLY starved. I'm happy with this setup but want to try as many builds as I can to share with others and give insight/alternatives.
I'll definitely give this a go then - I've been using the Hidden/Dance build and enjoy it, but definitely make a bunch of mechanical blunders because I need to look at my action bar so much.
@@tschomb1332 The only big 'goof' you can make with this build is using Keep it Rolling at a bad time, since it can consume Loaded Dice currently, and then you have to remember that you can reroll only ONE time after using Keep it Rolling for the buffs to carry over that you extended into your new roll. It's kinda hard to explain in writing but if you give it a try, I recommend smacking a target dummy for a bit just to see how re-rolling works with this build. If you can get it right, it's a big advantage and makes you have lots of buffs far more often.
@@ZeraTheRedRogue Makes sense. Trying it now in mid level mythics and having a good time - Do you think it'd be worth while to make a WA that highlights dispatch when you're on an anima charged CP? Or one that highlights keep it rolling when you have good RTB buffs on
@@tschomb1332 Personally my combo point tracker just changes to a different color if I'm on an Anima-charged CP so I know to use it which is more than enough for me, and I don't have a Keep it Rolling weakaura other than knowing it is able to be used. This is because I am not really a super advanced WA creator and most of the ones I've made are very simplistic, so I don't know how I'd do the LUA for making it show a warning when I have good buffs other than just remembering what I rolled, when I rolled it, etc.
Really nice guide, thank you!
Glad you liked it, Blitzclick. This is still my favorite build of the current trending ones by far.
In a cleave opener you want to flurry before ambush so the ambush spreads, and you want to build to BtE first and foremost, then build to slice after. Minor optimisations but that's what's suggested on Ravenholdt and it makes a big difference on pull!
Edit: I thought this was on my shadow dance build video, whoops.
The thing with this build is you use adrenaline rush from stealth, which gives full 7 CP thanks to Improved Adrenaline rush. This means you already have slice and dice up before you even start the pull.
Also, this build doesn't cast Ambush basically ever because it doesn't use the subterfuge talent. For the Hidden Opportunity/Shadow Dance build, everything you said is 100% true. I just put up a video discussing that build and thought this was a comment from that one, hence my original response.
You dont flurry in stealth with this build @TkzAssassin lol. That's only done in Subterfuge variations of the HO build BECAUSE of subterfuge.
recently switched to this build over hidden/shadow build. Hell of a lot more fun to play.
Question, what are you running in raid? Hidden opp/dance is simming +1k better than keep it rolling builds
I actually am guildless at the moment so I've mainly just been doing keys to try and get more gear so pugging into raid won't be as painful. I've noticed Liquid's outlaw rogues are running Keep it Rolling/ER builds, but I don't know if there's a bigger reason behind that.
@@ZeraTheRedRogue also, is there a few bugs atm? stealth pop AR for full combo points then roll the bones and it drops me to 2 combo points sometimes.... Keep it rolling and the roll the bones seems to be iffy at best or im just supremely unlucky with my rolls
@@Thomo316 Hm, I don't think I've seen that one happen yet, Andrew. The only annoying bug I'm aware of is Keep it Rolling consuming your Loaded Dice proc if you don't spend it first, and the fact you can hit Keep it Rolling before you even have any buffs and it will still go on cooldown. xD KiR definitely plays heavily into Roll the Bones and re-roll logic in general, as well as counting a little bit on good Count the Odds procs to get really good use out of it, which is why I do consider it a potential con for people that dislike having to keep track of so many rules/conditions for Roll the Bones.
Do you know if the hero rotation add-on will help me learn this rotation for this build?
I'm not certain, though I believe rotation addons such as HeroRotation/Hekili will only be able to give a very loose guideline due to how many conditions outlaw can have at any point. I've not used it personally, however, so I may be mistaken.
Hi Red rogue ! I'm not an expert with english langage, currently, what is your favorite build concerning Outlaw ? i new with rogue and i dont really understand shadow dance mecanics
Personally, I prefer this build (The Keep it Rolling/Echoing Reprimand Setup). It offers you a lot of mobility/defensives without sacrificing much DPS at all. A lot of people are using the Dance builds but I just don't care for the way they gameplay feels. Hopefully that answers your question, Thibaut, if not then feel free to ask about anything you might need clarification on. ^^
So, just a little small recap. Keep Echoing Reprimand on CD, and when is the best time to use Keep it Rolling? I have mostly used it near the end of life of a big boss in a raid or Mythic. Most open world content, accept for WBs, I feel I dont need to use it. Also what is the Weak Aura you use for this build?
Yup, Echoing Reprimand should be used on Cooldown, since even if you use it at the end of a trash pack, the anima-charged CPs are saved until 45 seconds expire, which is exactly how long the cooldown of Echoing Reprimand. For Keep it Rolling, it's not so simple. Ideally you'll get lucky and your timings of when adrenaline Rush is up for loaded dice, plus just having decent buffs up will allow you to just send Keep it Rolling as close to on cooldown as possible, however if you're getting terrible rolls then you'll end up sitting on it for couple minutes at a time which is unfortunate. For world content it's fairly inconsequential, and this guide is specifically targeted at Mythic+. For my weakauras, I have all of them located in a collection on wago.io, the link to my collection should be in the description to all my videos.
@@ZeraTheRedRogue Thank you!!!
Nice video :) +1
Do you have rotation wa/addon like this down left corner ? I dont find it in your wa pack.
Thank you, Ucek. ^^ That I believe is a WA called GCD history, if I'm not mistaken. I'd have to double check, though, it may be the Streamer plugin on Details if I got rid of that WA.
Can you share the transmog?
It's mainly just a Legion PvP set (Demonic? I think?) that matches the antorus raid tier, but in red since it's the horde setup. It turns blue/gold if you're alliance. I also use the Fencer's Reach mage tower weapon appearance which is unobtainable, the Parrotfeather Cloak, the Swashbuckler's eyepatch, and a BfA green belt that I forget the name of. xD
What is the fan the hammer WA? Are you able to share that?
Sorry I missed this comment, Alexander. I do have all my weakauras (including the FtH one) up on wago.io, the link to my collection should be in the description of all my videos.
Tried to copy your code and its out of date, can you post your new one please.
Thank you :)
Why does imp. shiv not interact with that atropic poison?
is this outdated now? does it sim as high as shadowdance ambush build?
If you swap grappling hook for Weaponmaster, it sims about 2% lower than the Shadow Dance Opportunity build. If you choose to use grappling hook too, it's about 3.2% lower. (These were the numbers I came up when simming MY character though, so it may be slightly different for you, but I doubt too much) With this build you gain multiple movement abilities, a shorter sprint, evasion and numbing poison, which I think rounds out the M+ toolkit very nicely. But some people would prefer 2-3% more DPS, so that's up to you to decide.
@@ZeraTheRedRogueare you simming for patchwerk or hectic add cleave?
@@TheCherrypoppin For both the builds I used dungeonslice since the rogue theorycrafters put a LOT of work into Dungeonslice optimization.
Thanks assassination getting ER nerfed.
Yeah I know, a bunch of jerks. It sounds like the impact is fairly minimal to overall DPS though, and I guess it's 1 less combo point to worry about hitting? >>; Something of a silver lining, I guess.
Do you have a build for kir/er on single target?
Please move the Mythic+ window away from your buffs.
xD Yeah I know, I had been meaning to do that but forget.
Lol