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EP 111: The Abstinence Myth with Dr. Adi Jaffe
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- Опубликовано: 3 окт 2018
- Can we be successful at beating addiction if we don’t abstain altogether? Annie Grace welcomes back her first-ever, second-time guest, Dr. Adi Jaffe in today’s episode to discuss his book, “The Abstinence Myth.” Dr. Jaffe’s unique perspective regarding addiction and abstinence is captivating and refreshing, giving hope where all seems hopeless!
Episode Links:
The Abstinence Myth: A New Approach for Overcoming Addiction Without Shame, Judgment, Or Rules by Dr. Adi Jaffe amzn.to/2QfxwRe
The Abstinence Myth Website
www.theabstine...
IGNTD Podcast www.igntd.com/p...
The thing that I wanted to make clear that people understood right off the bat is just how anti the status quo I am. And so we ended up calling the book The Abstinence Myth. I couldn't really be much clear about some of the problems that I have with the field in them, but it's a mix between like the academic view of where addiction has gone out and actionable. Every chapter ends with exercises and there's a three principle nine step kind of plan for people to follow along if they want to get help with their struggles and whether those struggles are with alcohol, drugs, food, sex, gambling, or anything in between. So I'm really excited about it.
Three Myths
There are three different myths that I really talk about in the book. The first one is the myth of abstinence as the starting point for recovery. And I think it's one of the most unfortunate things and I will scream this from every rooftop that I get and use my use my soapbox to say this as many times as possible because we have grown up to understand that it's a necessity. That if you're not willing to commit to abstinence, you're not ready for recovery. People literally will tell others who want to go to rehab, who want to get help, "Come back when you're ready to quit."
We're losing more and more people every year. And that trend has been ongoing for decades. And so my point that I make to a lot of people is look, I don't care what you believe in. The current system isn't working. Period. If more people are dying from drug addiction every single year we have to change something and we have to stop blaming them. I put placing abstinence as what I call the guard at the gate for recovery as one of the first problems that we need to stop.
What everybody does is, "Hey, you're an alcoholic. You have to quit drinking." That's what everybody does. It's not a unique situation for her. It's the most prevalent thing that ends up happening is, "Oh, you're an alcoholic. You must quit." And the point I make is, again, you know about some of my research, but when I was a post doc at UCLA and I did research, more than 50% of my participants said that a very important or important reason why they didn't enter treatment because they like drinking or using too much to quit. Everybody else said the exact same thing that this woman's potential sponsors said, which is, "Well, you're not ready for help." And people would literally tell me this, "Well those participants are not motivated for help." And I said, "Why do you say that? The only reason they're in my study is because they were looking for treatment. That's how we recruited people.
Start reading This Naked Mind - learn.thisnake...
What we are telling them is, "Well, if you don't want this kind of help, then you're not really looking for help." And then we wonder why 90% of people, 90% of people don't go get treatment. They don't go get treatment because we are literally telling them, "What you want is not the right thing." Now, I don't know about you, but imagine if any other industry worked this way. Imagine if when you went to the movies, they told you what movie you have to watch or imagine if you went to a restaurant and somebody said, "Well, today you are eating this dish." and you say, "Well I don't want this dish. I was kinda hoping for this other thing that I've had here before." And they go, "Well, obviously you're not hungry so don't, don't come in." It's fricking ridiculous. It's absurd.
The first myth to me is that we have to first commit to abstinence. Abstinence if it's the right thing for somebody. And I think for a lot of people it is the right thing, by the way. But if it's the right thing, that should come later. After we gave them help, abstinence should be there. So that's the first thing. The second piece is that abstinence is how we should measure success. And my point about this, that myth, is how ... Like if you walk into an AA meeting or almost anytime, how do you know if somebody is doing well, you ask them, "How long have you been sober?" If they tell you four days they're at this level of recovery. They tell you 30 days, they're at this level of recovery. If they tell you 35 years they're up here. We measure success by abstinence.
Just thank you for opening people’s minds that the AA way isn’t the only way! If it works for you great, but If there are as many people who struggle with addiction, there can not possible be only one way to beat it!
You're so welcome!
Thank you for this Adi . Years of sat in the rooms . When I spoke up , people I'd known years turned against me , I said in a meeting iv been clean years and I'm depressed 😢. That silence you talk about happened . It was always the same , you need more meetings , you need to finish step 4 , I saw a close friend kill himself cos he cudnt stay clean , he felt a failure , he wasn't . The self righteousness of people cringed me . I was told if you leave ul use . And I did . I did , again going bk to rehab . Then I found Anna s naked mind it changed my life . Thank you both of you ❤️
Hope you're continuing to find your peace and your freedom!
Shame was a massive part of my addiction and I have done a lot of work on myself, but still feel personally if I chose to pick up a drink again it would not take long for it to become unmanageable and destructive. One beer has never been enough for me, it just does not interest me, I like getting wasted.
Knowing that is so important!
I agree with this! I mark my calendar and when I fall off I still look at the whole month and say hey its better than you where doing......
Excellent way to look at it!
This is a huge Paradigm shift.
Thank you for the insight.
Huuuuugggee shift!
I quit drinking on the 17th of Aug. this year. Thank you Annie for your videos.
Congratulations you are AWESOME!!
God bless
Good for you. Hope all is going well now.
We would love an update on how you're doing now!
Yes that "I broke my abstinence I may as well just carry on now all in,"and the guilt and shame that brought nearly killed me.
Guilt and shame can be such triggers and hold us back immensely!
I watched the first video as well and also commented there but I just wanted to say thank you so much. This was the validation I needed. It has given me back my power and I have shed another layer of shame. I just really appreciate your boldness and what you are doing to help people. You are are both trailblazers. Thank you for being a part of my recovery and improving my quality of life w/ this information and thought process. So much love to you both!
Honored to be part of your journey!
Yeah , it's not always easy but at least your walking in the right direction.
Good luck.
Amazing! I wish that this type of information had been available in the eighties. Had it been, I'm certain my life would have went in a very different direction. However, it's available now and I'm still here, still relatively healthy, and not horribly old...lol. This is life changing for me in more ways that I can explain. Thank you!
Wow just what I needed to hear today, I'm doing 30 day experiment but have drank 2 out of 14 days but hey sober for 12 go me
Definitely go you!! :)
Brilliant. I once interviewed Marianne Williamson (about 10 years ago) and she's been around the fringes of 12 steps for years and she said this thing I've never forgotten - AA's focus on "time up" keeps more people out of recovery than it does keeping them in recovery. So, so true, it's what I have observed first hand over decades.
Yes, keeping score can be a deterrent for many!
This is exactly what I’ve been needing to hear. It gives me hope. Thank you for that❤
You are so welcome!!
The U. S. was conquered by Protestant fundamentalists and that view dominates much of society including our views on substance use. The dominant paradigm bears striking similarity to the underlying assumptions of Protestant fundamentalism, ie. sin (substance use), punishment (consequences), repentance (a commitment to abstinence), and conditional salvation (the period of time during which abstinence is maintained). Abstinence = Salvation. The scientific model of substance related problems is up against this belief system that is, in essence, religious.
Thanks for sharing that insight!
This is an OMG moment for me! I agree with everything you say is right on point !!! Listening to your talk, and Annie's podcasts, have helped me more than ANY program I've ever put myself in! For me after 15years, your and Annie's ideology should be put into any recovery program! It ensures success, mentally, physically and spiritually!!! Thankyou, Thankyou! Xxxxxxxxx
We would love an update on how you're doing now!
This is an amazing eye opening discussion.
Appreciate that!
After nearly 6 years sober (not a drop) I definitely pressed the fuck it button, and then also totally had the Alcohol Violation Syndrome!!! So, so true!.. Another thing you may or may not have considered is also then not stopping again in this situation for any period at all unless ready to start 100% sobriety again. I thought there was only one way, and it had to be 100%. Ridiculous now, thinking about it, but had absorbed this approach as having mostly worked and the way it was done! Full abstinence is easier. Unless wanting to employ alcohol for the one thing is does do: temporarily numbs extreme emotional pain (which is what caused relapse). NB It is also dangerous using alcohol for this purpose is suicidal, and alcohol also increases blue mood the next day and depression over time until you stop. Understanding this now means I can choose to lock it away as useless to a balanced, healthy, happy life, whilst knowing that I can drink if I ever want to without the sky falling in on my head and that it’s all over!!
And in terms of the stigma; my God, so true!!! I used to think the way forward was openness to reduce the stigma around the word and concept of an alcoholic. Now I realise that the label itself is the issue due to where it places the blame.
Would love to know how you're doing now!
OMG yes, potential sponsors have said the worst things to me like this.
Thank you for this guest! I 100%. agree with what he is saying!!!!
So glad it connected with you!
Annie. I will keep this brief. The good Doctor is great and thank you for having him and allowing your viewers to look at this alcohol thing from a different perspective. The most powerful part of his story , to me, was his personal side which he said he left out of his book because others have much more to do then to take a look into his life. To me that was the most fascinating piece because here you have this Doctor that went thru 'human' things..I certainly can relate battling with drugs, being a drug pusher, and being an all around unpleasant person to be around. Fast forward 22 years, I have my Family intact, I am retired from the US Navy (20 years) I am a recent Masters Graduate..and now I am a really good Real Estate agent. My story was in my battle and I can relate to the Doctor.
Everything else that the Doctor mentioned, was everything that you teach or have taught. The AA point of view which I know you got push-back for but it is true, we are not the problem, the alcohol is! You also taught me to look at this alcohol thing in percentages, which has been very effective for me. You always put a positive feel-good spin on this serious epidemic and it is very refreshing. Not to take anything away from the Doctors work but you basically wrote that book Annie..this is the reason why I follow you. Thank you for everything that you do! I will continue to fight the good battle until I can reach 100% success rate status..until then I will be happy with my current as Oct 6 (2018) 96.2% success rate...thats an A! 👍
We would love an update on how you're doing now!
@@ThisNakedMind Hi Annie!
As I write today I am 201 days in a row alcohol free. I hit some potholes (and heartbreak) along the way from that time in Oct 2018 but here we are. I feel great and inviting new things into my life. I am very proud of this accomplishment. This has been the longest I have gone without alcohol since I first introduced that poison to my body over 28 years ago. One huge catalyst for me was the recent death of my baby Sister Maria. I wanted to feel the raw emotion of losing her to help me (and my Family) recover and move forward. I was sick of masking my pain...because it was always there the next morning.
Anyways I hope you and yours are well. I still listen to you as well as Simon Chapple - and others. Every bit of inspiration, every story, every tip has served me well and have transformed me into this new man that I am today.
Thank You Annie, Stay Blessed. 🙏
Congrats
The only requirement for AA membership is a “desire” to stop drinking. A sponsors role is to take a person through the steps. The steps can’t help a person if they have not done step one. A sponsor isn’t a councilor or therapist. They are fellow alcoholics. The rooms of AA are filled with people who help others - selflessly. If people want what we have they must be willing to go to any lengths to get it and that does require abstinence. But it does not mean they can’t come to meetings or they they won’t be loved or cared for.
7 yrs strong and sober in the Double A's fellowship...my suggestion you cant get 'them' to see the way...actually its counter productive...been there done that. one a more personal side, keep coming back...glad you found it one day atta time.
Sponsor: Hey Jay you can never trust your thinking - your best thinking got you here.
Me : So I can't trust my thinking but I have to listen to your thinking?
Sponsor : Yes
Me : I'm F'd 🙄
Perfect, drinking is just a symptom's of problems in life. It's a SMART mind shift and contrasts AA approach. Whilst AA has an educational approach, the notion of relapse is almost put out there as an of course, but also stigmatising...
Realizing that we can have control and power is such a mind shift!
@@ThisNakedMind Indeed, the only thing in life we really can control is ourselves.
Thanks guys. Great info as usual 👍 I hate the term "recovery". I'm not in recovery. I'm not an addict, and once an addict always an addict is a lie. Substances were my ONLY coping skill. With CBT I learned new coping skills and I hardly even think of drugs or alcohol. I don't know my "sober date" - I actually could care less. I know I don't use and I'm entirely happy. When I left AA/NA my psyche instantly got better. I used because of my PTSD and bipolar II. My therapist told me 12 steps were cults and not to go back. In addiction to Adi and Annie's books, check out Unbroken Brain, The Biology of Desire and The Freedom Model. Remember, 75% of alcoholics stop with no program whatsoever.
Developing those coping mechanisms is where the true healing happens!
The Freedom Model is a GAME CHANGER. It basically substantiated the “re tool your thinking/re route your desires” method I had used all along. 12 step cults fail so many people and falsely teach them they have a chronic, unresolvable “ condition “ and do far more harm than good. I don’t identify with the recovery movement and honestly it’s been key to my success.
I just ordered Dr. Adi Jaffe book The Abstinence Myth, pretty excited to get it !!
👍
Another great video thanks Annie and Dr Jaffee !
Our pleasure!
Ordered your book and have a psychiatrist appointment to start the Sinclair Method.
May this be the start of your freedom! Cheering you on!!
This goes against everything my rehab taught me haha
Thanks for this 👍
There are many paths to freedom!
I've tried quitting over and over again. I'm currently on day 40. However I start thinking about this moderation approach because I like smoking a joint , I like having a drink. What i hate is hoe it grabs hold of my entire world and then every action and every decision I make revolves around it. Can something as moderation actually work? Or am I just making an excuse for myself to get what I think I want? Urgh I hate my brain, why cant we just pick it up and put it down? Can this book really help? (Yes I realize I'm asking a youtube comment section for help, dont kick me as I'm already obviously down lol)
The book has helped so many. Have you tried joining The Alcohol Experiment ( www.alcoholexperiment.com ) over 200K have changed their relationship with alcohol using it and it's totally free!
The only thing that sucks more than abstinence is going drunk all the time. The only thing that sucks more than getting drunk all the time is trying to moderate drinking.
So of the three options (abstain, moderate or get drunk), abstinence sucks the least.
Truth!!
Wow amazing video. Thank you.
Our pleasure!
One phrase I hate after a relaspe is that " you must not want it bad enough. "
I always think about his guy at meetings that over a year clean, was helping others, and going to school. One dayI saw him at a meeting shaking and twiddling his thumbs. I know he wanted it.
Yes, so tone deaf! That just isn't true!
LOVE THIS!!!
.
You did something amazing
Thank you!
Self-assertion, a need for autonomy, will bring success to those desiring freedom from substances. Being forced to quit will result in failure more often because you are robbed of autonomy, being told by another how to live, rather than affirming rights of self-determination.
Excellent perspective!
Alcohol is a symptom it’s not the root cause.
Addiction is about dysfunctionally being alone inside yourself in the world in a way you can’t abide; alcohol or drugs or processes numb that painful experience.
Yes, we need to learn to sit with our feelings and allow ourselves to feel.
Finally! I knew I wasn't the only person in the world who sees that AA and their message of abstinence is a load of bullshit.
I am a responsible drinker who practices moderation. However, my fiancee is attending AA, and I have attended quite a few meetings with her, and I am disgusted every time I go at how fake and pretentious those people are there. And unfortunately, they have indoctrinated her into this cult-style thinking that if because she's had a problem with drinking, she's somehow a full fledged alcoholic that must abstain from alcohol.
I have told her many times, that she is not an alcoholic. That alcohol is a scapegoat and an excuse not to deal with the root of her problems, which I believe is separation anxiety and her need to be around people, and the alcohol/bars is a way to be around people when most people have gone to bed. I tell her that she needs to cope with being alone, and go to sleep, instead of trying to find who's awake to go to a restaurant or bar and drink and socialize.
I'm not saying AA is completely a bad thing. But I do think they throw the proverbial baby out with the bathwater, when they preach that abstinence from alcohol is the only way to be sober. I believe it's mostly about choices and responsibility, and not always some alleged "incurable alcohol dissease" that people develop or are born with. To me, that's bullshit.
It's great tool for some and has certainly worked for many. Thank goodness other options now exist for those who haven't benefited from the AA methodology.
I never liked the AA mantra of labeling yourself an alcoholic even after you've been sober for years. It never made since to me. I never had to go, thankfully, but I just don't like their philosophy.
It's not for everyone!
I like a lot of what Annie Grace presents in her books, videos, etc. However, there are some aspects of what she presents that I think dangerously over-conflates different degrees of addiction. I believe this type of discussion in this video dangerously conflates 1) those with an alcohol addiction who can moderate and 2) those who simply cannot moderate or drink one drink without it leading right back to severe levels of uncontrollable drinking. There is an alcohol addiction spectrum & this conflated paradigm that is presented by Adi Jaffe & Annie Grace harmfully conflates & confuses the issue for those on the further end of the addiction spectrum who can never control or moderate their drinking.
Along this addiction spectrum there is a clear line that can be drawn between those who can possibly moderate their drinking and those who know they simply cannot control or moderate their drinking once they've started. These sides of the spectrum need to be clear & separate when it comes to discussions about abstinence. Those who know that they cannot ever have one drink without it leading back to severe levels of uncontrollable drinking need abstinence. Of course, that does not mean, as discussed, that any relapse(s) should lead to a person giving up on becoming abstinent again. And, of course, that does not mean they should not be able to get help with achieving & maintaining abstinence or with addressing any co-occurring mental health issues before they've stopped drinking or when they may have relapsed. But, this simply should not be equated or conflated at all with discussions about those who can possibly moderate.
Of course, where the line ends on the spectrum of those with an addiction who can possibly moderate & those who simply cannot moderate is a gradation. However, there does come to be a point on this gradation on the spectrum that starts the demarcation of people who learn & know for a fact that they need to maintain abstinence & can never drink any alcohol without it leading to uncontrollable drinking.
For those people clearly on the other side of this demarcation on the spectrum line who know they cannot drink at all without it leading to severe levels of uncontrollable drinking--there cannot be any discussions about moderation.
For those on the end of the spectrum that know from experience that they can moderate on some level, then moderation may possibly be the right answer for them in the short-term or long-term.
Those in the middle of this addiction spectrum or who do not yet know where they fall on the spectrum will unfortunately have to find out over time where they fall & they can possibly follow Adi Jaffe's & Annie Grace's openness on this matter, & moderation may or may not work out to be best for them. Or they may learn over time that they actually know they cannot moderate and abstinence is the only answer.
However, for those who already know they simply cannot moderate, this kind of conflated discussion only delays & makes the work of achieving abstinence more difficult by possibly creating false hopes in the addiction part of the mind that may grab onto the notion that moderation can possibly be part of the solution.
The main goal at TNM is to lower the barrier to entry. To make the idea of changing our relationship with alcohol a conversation we aren't afraid to have. The best way to do that is through curiosity and experimentation. We can't decide for others what changes they need to make.
@@user-lv6fp6jy4c Yes, self-medication is the situation for many of those who can moderate & for those who cannot. There are some people who have no real underlying co-occurring anxiety or depression who simply cannot drink even one drink or else it will lead to non-stop drinking. Some people are somehow just wired that way, whether or not they have co-occurring anxiety &/or depression. So it can be thought of as a Venn diagram -- where there are plenty of people who, no matter what, cannot have one drink without it leading to non-stop drinking. These people should not be told that moderation is a possibility, because their mind (the alcoholic part of the mind) will forever chase that false promise, & therefore forever be caught up in endlessly drinking. I am truly very happy that you have found tools to help with your underlying co-occurring conditions. And, if you are able to drink in moderation afterwards, then you do not fall on that part of the Venn Diagram that those who cannot fall. Abstinence is the only answer for the people who clearly fall on this part of the Venn Diagram, & this should be made clear to those on that side of the spectrum. That doesn't mean that moderation cannot be an entry way to get there, but it needs to be made very clear to those clearly on that side of the spectrum that abstinence has to be the end goal. There cannot be any lies about this, because this false notion will be chased forever, because the alcoholic part of the brain in these folks is that strong & desperately wants to believe they can somehow, some way, sometime come to drink in moderation. And, it will become a dream they chase into their grave. Therefore, there's no excuse for Adi giving people who can never moderate such a false notion & promise.
@@user-lv6fp6jy4c There most definitely is an alcoholic part of the mind. It's like a little devil sitting on one shoulder that will grasp onto & twist anything & everything it possibly can into reasons to drink. And, there are most definitely people who say they have had no real trauma or co-occurring issues in their lives, & yet if they drink, they will end up in a full blown nonstop drinking binge. Like I said, it's a Venn diagram & also a definite spectrum of those who simply can never have a drink without it leading to non-stop drinking regardless of never having any underlying co-occurring issues to begin with or having worked on them to heal those issues. These people can never take another drink in their lives without it leading to full blown drinking again.
@@user-lv6fp6jy4c Again, there are a great many people who say there is no underlying issues. They simply can't drink without it leading to full blown drinking. It is some wiring or genetic issue. Please stop imposing your situation onto others. I am not saying that you can't moderate. So please don't insist that others, who may have no real underlying issues or who have worked them out, can at some point, when they know for a fact that they cannot. That is a very unhelpful & dangerous proposition for too many people (who again do not have or have worked through any issues they have had & maintained sobriety for decades which they know they can only do through abstinence.)
@@user-lv6fp6jy4c You simply can't or won't get that there are plenty of people who have no real underlying conditions, but simply can't drink alcohol because of a neurotransmitter or some genetic issue that causes them to continue to drink after the first drink. You are clearly only able to see things from your pov, & beyond understanding other's pov's.
So does he drink in moderation?
I don't believe so.
In this webinar he says he is now a social drinker. ruclips.net/video/nwnSY_ChbV0/видео.html
So my problems with addiction began with pain pills when it was a teenager the opiates must have tickled that little thing in my brain at us addicts are hardwired to self-destruct on because by the time I was 18 years old that was sitting in prison and my life was thoroughly unmanageable when I got out and went right back to using drugs anything I could get my hands on you just to feel different because obviously I wasn't taking care of the underlying issues that were actually really affecting me I was just on that guilt insane mode to wear it I'm going to use I'm going to use and make it worth it because why not you are clean days only start when you get sober right the second you fall off the wagon it's back to square one at least in everybody else's eyes I went in and out of prison three times before I finally got out of prison and did not have probation and parole looking over my shoulder every single week. That was the only time that I was actually able to start thinking about what I wanted and working towards those goals because never one-time to probation parole by forcing me to do things their way by forcing me to be sober by forcing me to do anyting never one time did I actually do any work on myself because no matter what I was always judged on what i was doing wrong.... and today ill admit I used but I'm not an addict anymore I don't think I don't know maybe I am I have no idea I just know that yes i use sometimes but my life isn't unmanageable it is not Outta control anymore and I haven't been back to prison since 2013 but I also don't look at myself like I'm a failure because I use I look at myself as at immense success even though I might still have some issues that I'm working on
Working on ourselves is a lifelong journey! Congrats on all you've accomplished so far!
Choose your bittim
Yes!
people do come in to aa to quit ! Nah ! i do not agree with his theories !
It's great that so many options exist so we can all find the methodology that connects best with us individually.
The Moderation Myth. I would prefer a book discussing that fact, that moderation is a myth, now that I can boast seven years of liberty from tobacco and 22 years of freedom from alcohol and 40 years total abstinence from any mind-reducing substance. Not a myth, the liberty. No treatment centers, just self-determination and love of autonomy.
The Moderation Myth. Write, please.