Already complained about this in my own comment, but the horse might still be alive, so… Given that they explicitly use magic powers, Ed or Falke would have given Capcom the perfect opportunity to introduce a character with a Stand-in-all-but-name to SFV. Instead we got a whole bunch of boring.
@@ThatOneAnnoyingPubPlayer if it’s true that devo is then it is a shame since jojo is a kusoge. As fun as the game is, the designs of the character handicapped it from ever being mainstream as an esport
Likely because, in terms of the obligatory "puppet character" that comes to mind (especially from arcsys), no one will ever top Eddie and Zato. They are the OGs
@@17absolut That’s called a summon character, the best example of summon characters are people like Jack-O from guilty gear xrd and gargos from killer instinct… to explain more these two characters aren’t actually controlling what the characters do, they are *summoning* with a certain input in mind, if you can say that nappa is a puppet character that’s like saying android 18 or videl are puppet characters where they are no where near that.
The majority of your video was just misinformation. The title is very ironic because you are the "dummy" that needs to be told what a puppet character is. Now, I don't mean any disrespect by that, but the title doesn't really make you look all too good given you were wrong for roughly 90% of the video. Granted, it's very easy to confuse puppet characters with set-play characters because they function very similarly and have very identical role descriptions. However, if you had looked into more how a puppet character PLAYS rather than what a puppet character IS, then you'd be able to see the difference. In all your examples, only Zato was the actual puppet character. Everyone else was set-play (with the exception of 18, who is a mix-up character). If you want a list of actual puppet characters, I'll leave it below. -Skullgirls = Ms. Fortune -JoJo = Devo -Under Night In-Birth = Chaos -Persona 4 Arena Ultimax = Ken Amada -Blazblue = Carl, Relius -Smash Bros Ultimate = Rosalina Overall, the main thing you'll see in puppet characters is that the puppeteer has the ability to allow the puppet the option to act independently from the master's control. Granted, you will be strategically placing your puppet in certain places (hence where the confusion with set-play arises), but most puppet characters are tied to some sort of life bar. And the thing that makes puppet characters really hard to distinguish is the fact that every single one of them has very subtle differences from each other that dramatically change how they are played, but they all share the same core principles to an extent. Set-play characters use other outside tools as well for pressure or combos, but they are more extensions of the characters rather than sentient beings independent from the user. On top of that, the goal for puppet characters is usually to sandwich the puppet on the opposite side of the character in order to pressure the opponent on two different fronts. Set-play CAN do this at times, but this can be mixed because a good portion of set-play approaches are usually frontal assaults rather than crossing up from two different sides. Android 18 is one such example, where all special moves with Android 17 pressure the opponent from the front. While I appreciate the attempt at tackling this topic, you should've taken more time to really get your information correct and taken more time to consider how an archetype plays rather than just what they are.
Tecnicly, Android 18 is an assist character, she can call her assist to do specific moves independently then leave, not manualy position and control with shared controls as yourself
@@fyrea there is a way you control them separately. It’s called d syncs. Im not sure how you do it but once you have them messed up and not the exact some thing, you can control each separately. With the added difficulty of trying to control one than the other with the same inputs
@@Kingsbeak yeah. Funny enough, the actual bets character isn’t banned from tournaments, but the second to best is. Pet shop and kakyoin are busted, but at least kakyoin let’s his opponent play the game.
I would really love to see a video on "composite characters" (i.e characters that have identical moves to multiple other characters on the roster. Think chameleon from the mk series, kirby from smash, seth from sf4, and shang tsung again from mk). Composites are so rare and, so different from every other type of character but I can't find a single good video on them.
Ironically enough, I'd argue Banjo is more of a composite character than Kirby: he has Ganon's fair, Ridley's fair as his bair, Ridley's down smash, Toon Link's dair, Mario's back throw etc. But other than that I agree that it would make for an interesting video :)
@@tavrincallas3218 That's halarious lol. Thanks for the reply btw. Also I personally wouldn't count banjo (or brawl wolf) as a composite character. Guess I'll have to make my own video essay on the subject. 😉
@@scorinnotborin2652 hey, if you actually do it I will gladly watch it! I really like watching video essays on fighting games, even when they cover stuff I already know. Like, I lost count on how many videos on the different archetypes I've watched :D
@@tavrincallas3218 I'm the same way. I love learning about fighting games and the theory behind them (that's why I loved this video). I am currently working on a video about composite characters (tho I don't know when it will release due too how I haven't really made one of these before). I'm putting tons of research into it so If your interested I'll be making weekly updates on the progress of the video on my community/discussion page.
Now that you mention it, that does feel right. They seem a little unique though in that most puppet characters were designed to play that way whereas Ice Climber players heavily exploited a glitch to get desyncs and wobbling. They aren't really grapplers, people just _play_ them that way
@@EleventhLetter_Casino couldn't you take the playstyle created by the players, and refine it into a character that's balanced and intentionally made to do it? Like, imagine a Puppet Grappler, with multiple different Command Grabs that are unique depending on if you use the main body or the puppet. The Puppet's grabs have short duration and don't do much damage, but have more range to them and can't be interrupted. while the main guy has grabs that do a lot of damage, but have short range and can be interrupted with proper counters. Requiring the Puppet player to use their Shadow to distract the opponent while they get in close. Effectively using their Puppet to mitigate the natural downside of Grapplers, having short range that is difficult to confirm on.
@@honeyham6788 That'd be terrifyingly strong lol. If a character like that were real, I'm sure they'd be designed with very difficult execution. With that much range and versatility, I can't imagine them being weak at all. I really like that concept.
Mate, I have been playing Street Fighter since SFII was in the arcades and I still can’t remember what the proper name for medium kick. Don’t sweat it if you can’t remember that HP is called “Fierce”. Edit: Anyone else think Capcom dropped the ball by not making Ed or Falke (or any of the new characters is SFV, really) a true puppet fighter?
@@seanusselsor9954 do you think maybe it was a mistake? he doesn't mention stance characters even once and he already has a video dedicated to stance characters
The one puppet I always think of besides Zato is Devo from JoJo Heritage for the Future. His Stand Ebony Devil is literally a wooden puppet that you can fully control but you lose control of Devo. Also technically a lot of the characters in that game feel like pseudo puppets since summoning your stand as a shield or a second source of combos is very common. Highly recommend checking the game out, probably one of the most unique old school arcade fighters I've played
Shadow Lab too. I think it's really cool that Persona gave almost everyone puppet character elements too some degree and still made 2 dedicated puppet characters who work totally differently.
They count as god's worst mistake Seriously though despite the fact they have an infinite grab combo their kit wasn't designed to be a grappler with none of their moves really complimenting the archetype
@@beywheelzhater8930 They have a tonne of grab combos besides wobbling, between SoPo chaingrabs on shiek, tech chasing fastfallers, and various handoffs. Plus they have many grab setups via blizzard and Nanapult ad so forth. They don't have an SPD style command grab where one move does loads of damage, though. Even still, the post-wobbling ban meta of Icies is still trying to land a grab.
@@bugcatcherharold5315 still, their kit isn't based around typical grappler type stuff, while grabbing ended up being shockingly effective for how light the two are they aren't made to mainly focus on dealing damage via grabbing It is like having a rushdown that point blanks people with a gun, he has a projectile as a main weapon, yes, but he isn't a zoner because he doesn't play like one, you are still unga bunga-ing just with bullets
Yeah, I didn't really understand why you are calling 18 a puppet character since 17 isn't there a good portion of the time Having two people on the screen doesn't instantly make you a puppet character, just like how having a grab doesn't instantly make you a grappler, you need to have it as a focus rather than just having it be randomly sprinkled into your kit Personally I see 18 as an assist rushdown, the rushdown being because everyone in FighterZ plays like a rushdown. Sure some characters like 16 may also have other archetypes, 16 being a grappler, but half the movement mechanics are designed to get you in close Honestly, FighterZ is the one game where you can say "rushdown grappler" and not have the whole fighting game community go into a panic
Kankuro from the Ninja storm series is a puppet rushdown character who's main gimmick is throwing his puppets at you from cross-map (you know how Arena fighters are) and actively rushing you down with their various duo combos. He has some zoning in that he can quick call his puppets back and fire crossmap projectiles at himself to keep safe, but overall he actually wants to just rush you down from afar as *jank* as that sounds.
Imma have to disagree that A18 is a puppet character and ginyu is more of an item character tbh. A18 is what id describe as a summon character, because u cant really control 17 . You summom him and he does a specific action, if zato summons eddie there’s multiple things you can have him before his summon time is up. Another example is like how parasoul from skullgirls summons her egrets to fight/protect her , but Ms. fortune can detach her head and have it attack the opponent based on your inputs.
i think of jojo characters more as stance characters since their stands are literally themselves and when they summon them their moveset changes so yeah
@@beywheelzhater8930 well wobbling was an oversight for sure, but even without that, their grab game is really quite strong. a great downthrow for followups and re-grabs (even as so-po) and the ability to smash attack during the grab makes them still a grappler imo. I don't think wobbling is bad tbh. at low level its cheesy for sure but at higher levels is definitely fair.
@@SuperLemonfish even if they ended up pretty heavy on the grabbing, they weren't made to be grapplers in any aspect in their core moveset The thing is when you have two characters able to use their full movesets and both are able to grab making it so they don't have some ridiculous uses of the ability to effectively do the smash equivalent to a Full Nelson is gonna be hard They aren't the typically big and bulky characters that struggle to get near opponents but wipes them out when up close, able to take the punishment given to them and dish out mass amount of damage however despite this they kinda just walked up into the grab gang meetings and no one has really said anything as two tiny gremlins with grabby hands is kinda terrifying
@@beywheelzhater8930 Exactly! two fully functional characters are naturally gonna be good at grabbing. So i think it is pretty intrinsic to their design. they allowed nana to attack during your grab animation as a design choice, and so, naturally they have bomb grab combos. Its true that Ice climbers are pretty different from the large slow archetype in traditional fighters. thats because they are a mixture between a grappler and a puppet character, *and* they are in a very different style of fighting game. Despite this, they do still have similar downsides. they have bad range and slow air mobility. and although they have a really good wavedash, their grounded movement is somewhat slow and is limited if you want to get grab followups, because nana has to be in the correct position. They also have a very bad disadvantage state and can get overwhelmed easily. Basically, i think that because their gameplay is centered around cornering the opponent with somewhat limited movement, and then landing a grab for big damage, they are grapplers.
@@SuperLemonfish my one problem with calling them true grapplers is, well, their moveset isn't based around being a grappler Actually, you can't really call anyone in smash a *true* grappler, without the use of chain grabs and such things usually grabs are either combo starters or life finishers instead of a main attack option, not only that but despite grabbing having become a pretty prevalent thing in the IC gameplan it isn't what their kit is built around. Their gameplan is based around concerning an opponent and overwhelming them with combos but that is apart of the puppet style, the grab is just a move added on to it to really get your combos going
I think that baby is a puppet character because just like how ginyu can call assist baby can, it just has a condition until he can become a puppet character
Pom from Thems fighting herds has three pets she can call out and command to cover her or help with combos. And Oleander has a super that adds a puppet to her movelist for a short time.
In MK11 Cassie has a custom move where she gets full control of her drone! Same goes for Sonya. It's not their core character, but I think they're still two interesting moves
I consider Ginyu to be a summon character as opposed to a puppet character. Reason being, they are not only random, but autonomous. 18 tho, yeah. She counts.
The Ginyu force attacks are not random, they are ordered, and You pick the attack of each member on the line. A18 is not a pupper character either as the puppet is not another entity, there are not many "real" puppet character, but I suggest You take a look at Carl Clover and Relius Clover both from BlazBlue
@@kokalombia Well I don't consider her a stance or summon character so puppet was the best description I could give. Plus I just didn't know that much about Ginyu and just wrote down what my friend told me about him.
First saw your UI video in my recommended and subbed! Love this series and your sense of humor. Would love to see a video on more archetypes or even subgenres or smaller mechanics. Just spitaballing, but maybe talking about managing a meter (Nagoriyuki's Blood Gauge, Bane's Venom, Sin's Food Gauge) that's unique to a character in their games.
18 and Ginyu arent puppet characters, they're barely considered summoners. They're more like characters with built in assists. Puppet characters are something like D'vo or Rosalina who actually control a seperate entity AND the original character at the same time. Menat isnt a puppet character either.
One of the cool things about Persona is despite personas being a nearly universal system that makes it so you could arguably call almost anyone a puppet character in some way there's still 2 dedicated puppet characters who work in completely different ways in Shadow Labrys and Ken and Koromaru.
this is a great video and I love the jokes and pacing as usual, but the jokes where your voice becomes louder get a little bit grating as the video goes on because (personally) i feel that you shift from too quiet to too loud. I was adjusting my volume up and down for most of this video please don't take this too negatively though, still loved it
There’s a wide range of puppet character control schemes that go from simple assist characters all the way to Carl. Even more than zato he’s the most core I can think of. His sister is literally a doll and is always on screen. Ranger, what I love about blazblue is that took the concept of puppet characters and broke it down into so several types of characters to fit everyone’s dedication/skill level/interest. Relius is a perfect introduction to a puppet character because you control him without negative edge. Celica is perfect for people who want the look of a puppet but not the feel. Litchi is a hybrid puppet character with her staff. Carl is the love letter to puppet characters with nuts setups and crazy negative edge
As for a PUPPET + GRAPPLER =Kanrah from killer instinct. He's a "trap-pler" as dubbed by the devs. Good screen control with the ability to deny space/options combined with his mummy raps for Zoner range command throws.
Forgot konkuro, he legit THE puppet user in my mind, just embodies that Pinocchio on a string energy (the kid from naruto) also the 2 blaze blue puppet users Btw sasori from naruto is actually Pinocchio and the strongest puppet user in their little Ninja world🌎
Aw dude could you do a video on brawlers? Characters with strong footsies, grabs, and damage at the cost of slow attacks, weak mobility, and big hurtboxes. Think Balrog, Abigail, G/Q, Jack (Tekken), Jeffry (Virtua Fighter), Big Band, Shao Kahn, Broly, Swamp Thing, and Aganos. They tend to get lumped in with grapplers 'cause they're usually big guys, but I'd love to see them get some spotlight and distinction
EY I AM A FAN AND THIS IS MY FIRST TIME WATCHING TILL THE END AND JOJO FANS NEED SOME GOD DAMN RESPECT AS THE SECOND BEST ANIME(first is DBZ). So yeah still love your content though
17 is a command assist and therefore 18 is not a puppet character. ARIA, has assists in the exact same fashion, and she's not considered a puppet character at all. Being a puppet character implies that you control you and the other entity AT THE SAME TIME. which means no fkin doing an animation to summon him to do one move and then they go away.
Android 18 is not a puppet character. A puppet character needs to have the puppet persist on the screen. Not just oooo she kicked her and now she’s gone. R.Mika isn’t a puppet character because of nadeshko Android 18 isn’t a puppet character either. Menat is borderline because her orb dosent persist in was staple puppet characters do.
well, not really, even though they are known for their broken grab in melee, they don't have a command grab, which I'd argue defines a grappler more. But I do agree with you about them being a puppet character.
@@FrackinFfoxglove ah I see I guess I also see them as grapplers not just because of the wobble(which sometimes get banned) but the desync throw combos they have. They get so much off of a grab that their whole gameplay is centered around it so I feel like even though they lack a command grab they kinda still feel like a grappler. Although I do see where you are coming from.
@@uriahmora743 Grapplers are more defined by forcing 50/50s with the existence of an unblockable high damage command throw with good oki and having the rest of their toolkit designed to get them into that position to force the 50/50 and to condition opponents to panic mash or jump in fear of the command throw. other characters may have command grabs, but depending on their usage and how it fits in they're toolkit, they aren't necessarily classified as grapplers if a majority of their gameplan doesn't revolve around that centralizing aspect
"GHOSTS" "Big... Glass... BALL" "down, fierce... WHAT THE FU-" I came wanting to learn. Instead, I learned nothing and was laughing the entire time. Thank you for the entertainment, you've gained an instant sub.
![KAYTRANADA - Witchy (feat. Childish Gambino) [Official Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/jGK3YVmGZ3Y/mqdefault.jpg)
I was about to comment why he didnt talk about JoJo and the was 4 parrarell universes ahead of me
*The* original puppet character deserves more respect.
Already complained about this in my own comment, but the horse might still be alive, so… Given that they explicitly use magic powers, Ed or Falke would have given Capcom the perfect opportunity to introduce a character with a Stand-in-all-but-name to SFV. Instead we got a whole bunch of boring.
@@ThatOneAnnoyingPubPlayer if it’s true that devo is then it is a shame since jojo is a kusoge. As fun as the game is, the designs of the character handicapped it from ever being mainstream as an esport
@@kenshin2820
what jojo is a kusoge? Did you fall out of the crib as a child or what?
@@zarpadosucio.Loquendero it is, the game is unbalanced and unviable as a proper competitive fighting game
How can you forget to mention Carl Clover (Blazblue)? He's like the definition of a "puppet" character, I mean Nirvana literally a puppet.
Carl was basically _THE_ S tier for a long time since they could infinite juggle. Not to mention Nirvana's other crazy set ups.
What about Relius Clover? The "Best" Dad in the Fighting Game History and he also is a puppet character XD
Likely because, in terms of the obligatory "puppet character" that comes to mind (especially from arcsys), no one will ever top Eddie and Zato. They are the OGs
@@KarolZiom Sol Dadguy would like to argue
@@dogfrogbird8710 In my perspective Sol isn't the best dad, but compared to Relius... Sol would be "Dad of the year" XD
"A18 and Ginyu are the only 2 puppet characters in DBFZ."
_sad Videl noises_
the thing is, that none of them are really puppet characters
@@fishtailrogue2598 i personally agree
what about Nappa ?
@@17absolut That’s called a summon character, the best example of summon characters are people like Jack-O from guilty gear xrd and gargos from killer instinct… to explain more these two characters aren’t actually controlling what the characters do, they are *summoning* with a certain input in mind, if you can say that nappa is a puppet character that’s like saying android 18 or videl are puppet characters where they are no where near that.
@@17absolut I also main nappa, so I could personally tell you that he isn’t a puppet character what so ever
The majority of your video was just misinformation. The title is very ironic because you are the "dummy" that needs to be told what a puppet character is. Now, I don't mean any disrespect by that, but the title doesn't really make you look all too good given you were wrong for roughly 90% of the video. Granted, it's very easy to confuse puppet characters with set-play characters because they function very similarly and have very identical role descriptions. However, if you had looked into more how a puppet character PLAYS rather than what a puppet character IS, then you'd be able to see the difference. In all your examples, only Zato was the actual puppet character. Everyone else was set-play (with the exception of 18, who is a mix-up character). If you want a list of actual puppet characters, I'll leave it below.
-Skullgirls = Ms. Fortune
-JoJo = Devo
-Under Night In-Birth = Chaos
-Persona 4 Arena Ultimax = Ken Amada
-Blazblue = Carl, Relius
-Smash Bros Ultimate = Rosalina
Overall, the main thing you'll see in puppet characters is that the puppeteer has the ability to allow the puppet the option to act independently from the master's control. Granted, you will be strategically placing your puppet in certain places (hence where the confusion with set-play arises), but most puppet characters are tied to some sort of life bar. And the thing that makes puppet characters really hard to distinguish is the fact that every single one of them has very subtle differences from each other that dramatically change how they are played, but they all share the same core principles to an extent. Set-play characters use other outside tools as well for pressure or combos, but they are more extensions of the characters rather than sentient beings independent from the user. On top of that, the goal for puppet characters is usually to sandwich the puppet on the opposite side of the character in order to pressure the opponent on two different fronts. Set-play CAN do this at times, but this can be mixed because a good portion of set-play approaches are usually frontal assaults rather than crossing up from two different sides. Android 18 is one such example, where all special moves with Android 17 pressure the opponent from the front.
While I appreciate the attempt at tackling this topic, you should've taken more time to really get your information correct and taken more time to consider how an archetype plays rather than just what they are.
As a Beowulf main.
A) he's not a grappler
B) the chair is obvious. Hes a stance Character, chair and chairless. Duuuuuh
Clear distinction of Puppet characters(Zato,Carl Clover), Placement tool character(Menat, Bridget) and Characters with Assist moves(R.Mika, Captain Ginyu).
We basically need Sub-Archetype names
XD
@@Ramsey276one what bout good ole rosalina
@@Ihaveno_ideangl Ah Smash!
XD
True
So the name for a character that just uses one body but has like a mini assist character is called an assist character right?
@@Ihaveno_ideangl
Rosas a puppet fightet
Tecnicly, Android 18 is an assist character, she can call her assist to do specific moves independently then leave, not manualy position and control with shared controls as yourself
You mentioned Skullgirls, but left out Ms Fortune. still great video and puppet characters are my favorite
CAT SCRATCH FEVER!
When he said there are no grab puppet characters
Inhale
Exhale
Ice climbers
You see melee Ice Climbers weren't made to be a puppet grappler
They just do anyway
@@fyrea there is a way you control them separately. It’s called d syncs. Im not sure how you do it but once you have them messed up and not the exact some thing, you can control each separately. With the added difficulty of trying to control one than the other with the same inputs
I am really surprised you didn’t mention D’vo from jojos bizarre adventure heritage for the future. Nice video btw.
Wasnt Dvo the first puppet character?
@@TheZoruaFilmsMC i guess.
@@TheZoruaFilmsMC he was
It's sad that even though he is arguably the hardest character, hes still not has good as jotaro or dio.
@@Kingsbeak yeah. Funny enough, the actual bets character isn’t banned from tournaments, but the second to best is. Pet shop and kakyoin are busted, but at least kakyoin let’s his opponent play the game.
I would really love to see a video on "composite characters" (i.e characters that have identical moves to multiple other characters on the roster. Think chameleon from the mk series, kirby from smash, seth from sf4, and shang tsung again from mk). Composites are so rare and, so different from every other type of character but I can't find a single good video on them.
Ironically enough, I'd argue Banjo is more of a composite character than Kirby: he has Ganon's fair, Ridley's fair as his bair, Ridley's down smash, Toon Link's dair, Mario's back throw etc.
But other than that I agree that it would make for an interesting video :)
@@tavrincallas3218 That's halarious lol. Thanks for the reply btw. Also I personally wouldn't count banjo (or brawl wolf) as a composite character. Guess I'll have to make my own video essay on the subject. 😉
@@scorinnotborin2652 hey, if you actually do it I will gladly watch it! I really like watching video essays on fighting games, even when they cover stuff I already know. Like, I lost count on how many videos on the different archetypes I've watched :D
@@tavrincallas3218 I'm the same way. I love learning about fighting games and the theory behind them (that's why I loved this video). I am currently working on a video about composite characters (tho I don't know when it will release due too how I haven't really made one of these before). I'm putting tons of research into it so If your interested I'll be making weekly updates on the progress of the video on my community/discussion page.
@@scorinnotborin2652 looking forward to it, I subbed to your channel so I won't miss it :)
Eddie's name is a reference to Iron Maiden's album cover mascot, so extra points to the edge meter.
wouldn't the Ice-Climbers count as a Puppet-Grappler?
Now that you mention it, that does feel right. They seem a little unique though in that most puppet characters were designed to play that way whereas Ice Climber players heavily exploited a glitch to get desyncs and wobbling. They aren't really grapplers, people just _play_ them that way
@@EleventhLetter_Casino couldn't you take the playstyle created by the players, and refine it into a character that's balanced and intentionally made to do it?
Like, imagine a Puppet Grappler, with multiple different Command Grabs that are unique depending on if you use the main body or the puppet. The Puppet's grabs have short duration and don't do much damage, but have more range to them and can't be interrupted. while the main guy has grabs that do a lot of damage, but have short range and can be interrupted with proper counters.
Requiring the Puppet player to use their Shadow to distract the opponent while they get in close. Effectively using their Puppet to mitigate the natural downside of Grapplers, having short range that is difficult to confirm on.
@@honeyham6788 That'd be terrifyingly strong lol. If a character like that were real, I'm sure they'd be designed with very difficult execution. With that much range and versatility, I can't imagine them being weak at all. I really like that concept.
@@EleventhLetter_Casino dsyncs are not glitches. Its been in all the smash games they've been in.
Mate, I have been playing Street Fighter since SFII was in the arcades and I still can’t remember what the proper name for medium kick. Don’t sweat it if you can’t remember that HP is called “Fierce”.
Edit: Anyone else think Capcom dropped the ball by not making Ed or Falke (or any of the new characters is SFV, really) a true puppet fighter?
Title is "Stance characters" ends up talking about puppet characters the whole video
is this a joke I don't get or did he change the title
@@MrBoingus He changed it.
@@seanusselsor9954 do you think maybe it was a mistake? he doesn't mention stance characters even once and he already has a video dedicated to stance characters
@@MrBoingus It was absolutely a mistake. I just found it kinda funny and pointed it out
The one puppet I always think of besides Zato is Devo from JoJo Heritage for the Future. His Stand Ebony Devil is literally a wooden puppet that you can fully control but you lose control of Devo. Also technically a lot of the characters in that game feel like pseudo puppets since summoning your stand as a shield or a second source of combos is very common. Highly recommend checking the game out, probably one of the most unique old school arcade fighters I've played
I play a puppet character in persona.
No it's actually a puppet character, Ken and koromaru, not the universal persona mechanic.
Shadow Lab too. I think it's really cool that Persona gave almost everyone puppet character elements too some degree and still made 2 dedicated puppet characters who work totally differently.
Would the ice-climbers count as a grappler puppet character?
They count as god's worst mistake
Seriously though despite the fact they have an infinite grab combo their kit wasn't designed to be a grappler with none of their moves really complimenting the archetype
@@beywheelzhater8930 They have a tonne of grab combos besides wobbling, between SoPo chaingrabs on shiek, tech chasing fastfallers, and various handoffs. Plus they have many grab setups via blizzard and Nanapult ad so forth. They don't have an SPD style command grab where one move does loads of damage, though. Even still, the post-wobbling ban meta of Icies is still trying to land a grab.
@@bugcatcherharold5315 still, their kit isn't based around typical grappler type stuff, while grabbing ended up being shockingly effective for how light the two are they aren't made to mainly focus on dealing damage via grabbing
It is like having a rushdown that point blanks people with a gun, he has a projectile as a main weapon, yes, but he isn't a zoner because he doesn't play like one, you are still unga bunga-ing just with bullets
Not what they were intended to.be, it is what they became.
Yeah, I didn't really understand why you are calling 18 a puppet character since 17 isn't there a good portion of the time
Having two people on the screen doesn't instantly make you a puppet character, just like how having a grab doesn't instantly make you a grappler, you need to have it as a focus rather than just having it be randomly sprinkled into your kit
Personally I see 18 as an assist rushdown, the rushdown being because everyone in FighterZ plays like a rushdown. Sure some characters like 16 may also have other archetypes, 16 being a grappler, but half the movement mechanics are designed to get you in close
Honestly, FighterZ is the one game where you can say "rushdown grappler" and not have the whole fighting game community go into a panic
the transition into smell of the game made me laugh really hard, good work
Kankuro from the Ninja storm series is a puppet rushdown character who's main gimmick is throwing his puppets at you from cross-map (you know how Arena fighters are) and actively rushing you down with their various duo combos. He has some zoning in that he can quick call his puppets back and fire crossmap projectiles at himself to keep safe, but overall he actually wants to just rush you down from afar as *jank* as that sounds.
“I’m a living human being”
-the half saiyan
Imma have to disagree that A18 is a puppet character and ginyu is more of an item character tbh.
A18 is what id describe as a summon character, because u cant really control 17 . You summom him and he does a specific action, if zato summons eddie there’s multiple things you can have him before his summon time is up.
Another example is like how parasoul from skullgirls summons her egrets to fight/protect her , but Ms. fortune can detach her head and have it attack the opponent based on your inputs.
Another puppet character is Oleander from TFH and sry if that was a long read .
Wish i was smart enough to play puppet characters :(
Noob Saibot and I guess Ferra Torr count. We all know Kankuro is the original puppet character
i think of jojo characters more as stance characters since their stands are literally themselves and when they summon them their moveset changes so yeah
The Jojo's are a weird stance/puppet hybrid
exept for d'vo on hftf
Took my mans to the end of the damn video to show a Puppet character XD
I don’t know what to comment but this helps the algorithm so comment yeah
Miss fortune is a pretty decent puppet ya know ...
1:44 Guilty Gear
How do I SLASH with A FAN?!
XD
Then we have Alice from Hisoutensoku who is a literal puppet master and fights with MULTIPLE puppets at once.
the only puppet grappler in fighting games I know is ice-climbers. very unique and cool character imo. they get bad press they don't deserve tbh
You see they weren't made to be grapplers, someone just learned they could do an infinite grab loop in melee and things went downhill from there
@@beywheelzhater8930 well wobbling was an oversight for sure, but even without that, their grab game is really quite strong.
a great downthrow for followups and re-grabs (even as so-po) and the ability to smash attack during the grab makes them still a grappler imo.
I don't think wobbling is bad tbh. at low level its cheesy for sure but at higher levels is definitely fair.
@@SuperLemonfish even if they ended up pretty heavy on the grabbing, they weren't made to be grapplers in any aspect in their core moveset
The thing is when you have two characters able to use their full movesets and both are able to grab making it so they don't have some ridiculous uses of the ability to effectively do the smash equivalent to a Full Nelson is gonna be hard
They aren't the typically big and bulky characters that struggle to get near opponents but wipes them out when up close, able to take the punishment given to them and dish out mass amount of damage however despite this they kinda just walked up into the grab gang meetings and no one has really said anything as two tiny gremlins with grabby hands is kinda terrifying
@@beywheelzhater8930 Exactly! two fully functional characters are naturally gonna be good at grabbing. So i think it is pretty intrinsic to their design. they allowed nana to attack during your grab animation as a design choice, and so, naturally they have bomb grab combos.
Its true that Ice climbers are pretty different from the large slow archetype in traditional fighters. thats because they are a mixture between a grappler and a puppet character, *and* they are in a very different style of fighting game.
Despite this, they do still have similar downsides. they have bad range and slow air mobility. and although they have a really good wavedash, their grounded movement is somewhat slow and is limited if you want to get grab followups, because nana has to be in the correct position.
They also have a very bad disadvantage state and can get overwhelmed easily.
Basically, i think that because their gameplay is centered around cornering the opponent with somewhat limited movement, and then landing a grab for big damage, they are grapplers.
@@SuperLemonfish my one problem with calling them true grapplers is, well, their moveset isn't based around being a grappler
Actually, you can't really call anyone in smash a *true* grappler, without the use of chain grabs and such things usually grabs are either combo starters or life finishers instead of a main attack option, not only that but despite grabbing having become a pretty prevalent thing in the IC gameplan it isn't what their kit is built around.
Their gameplan is based around concerning an opponent and overwhelming them with combos but that is apart of the puppet style, the grab is just a move added on to it to really get your combos going
How dare you talk puppet characters without mentioning Carl or Relius Clover?
You gotta play Blazblue they have actual puppet characters
Whenever i hear puppet character D'vo is the first thing to pop up in my head
I think that baby is a puppet character because just like how ginyu can call assist baby can, it just has a condition until he can become a puppet character
Ferra/Torr, Quan Chi, and Kung Lao from MKX would like to know your location.
Pom from Thems fighting herds has three pets she can call out and command to cover her or help with combos.
And Oleander has a super that adds a puppet to her movelist for a short time.
Surprised you didn't bring up Blaze Blue's 2 puppets
I've not played enough blazblue to know them, sorry
7:00 because techniclly (beside devo) every hftf characters are more like stance characters in my opinion
Ms fourtane is a rushdown puppet character
In MK11 Cassie has a custom move where she gets full control of her drone! Same goes for Sonya. It's not their core character, but I think they're still two interesting moves
He mentioned my main. I'm so happy.
I consider Ginyu to be a summon character as opposed to a puppet character. Reason being, they are not only random, but autonomous.
18 tho, yeah. She counts.
The Ginyu force attacks are not random, they are ordered, and You pick the attack of each member on the line.
A18 is not a pupper character either as the puppet is not another entity, there are not many "real" puppet character, but I suggest You take a look at Carl Clover and Relius Clover both from BlazBlue
@@kokalombia Well I don't consider her a stance or summon character so puppet was the best description I could give. Plus I just didn't know that much about Ginyu and just wrote down what my friend told me about him.
First saw your UI video in my recommended and subbed! Love this series and your sense of humor.
Would love to see a video on more archetypes or even subgenres or smaller mechanics. Just spitaballing, but maybe talking about managing a meter (Nagoriyuki's Blood Gauge, Bane's Venom, Sin's Food Gauge) that's unique to a character in their games.
2:39 Ok, I didn't expect Dearly Beloved
Also, your vid are so good! Keep on, My boi
18 and Ginyu arent puppet characters, they're barely considered summoners. They're more like characters with built in assists.
Puppet characters are something like D'vo or Rosalina who actually control a seperate entity AND the original character at the same time. Menat isnt a puppet character either.
If y'all need another example look at ice climbers from smash bros
ZWEI from soul calibur V actually is a puppet/grappler character in my opinion
Grappler Puppet Character would probably be Kanji in Persona 4 Arena?
One of the cool things about Persona is despite personas being a nearly universal system that makes it so you could arguably call almost anyone a puppet character in some way there's still 2 dedicated puppet characters who work in completely different ways in Shadow Labrys and Ken and Koromaru.
this is a great video and I love the jokes and pacing as usual, but the jokes where your voice becomes louder get a little bit grating as the video goes on because (personally) i feel that you shift from too quiet to too loud. I was adjusting my volume up and down for most of this video
please don't take this too negatively though, still loved it
Can you do a gimmick video?
I'm suprised you haven't talked about smash yet, especially since melee fox, shulk and rosalina fit their archetypes so well.
There’s a wide range of puppet character control schemes that go from simple assist characters all the way to Carl. Even more than zato he’s the most core I can think of. His sister is literally a doll and is always on screen.
Ranger, what I love about blazblue is that took the concept of puppet characters and broke it down into so several types of characters to fit everyone’s dedication/skill level/interest. Relius is a perfect introduction to a puppet character because you control him without negative edge. Celica is perfect for people who want the look of a puppet but not the feel. Litchi is a hybrid puppet character with her staff. Carl is the love letter to puppet characters with nuts setups and crazy negative edge
As for a PUPPET + GRAPPLER =Kanrah from killer instinct. He's a "trap-pler" as dubbed by the devs. Good screen control with the ability to deny space/options combined with his mummy raps for Zoner range command throws.
thanks for fixing the title
Every character in persona arena is a puppet character too
bro these videos are incredible lmao, all of these are so well produced man
cough *relius and relius jr from BB*
Chaos from Under Night!
Forgot konkuro, he legit THE puppet user in my mind, just embodies that Pinocchio on a string energy (the kid from naruto) also the 2 blaze blue puppet users
Btw sasori from naruto is actually Pinocchio and the strongest puppet user in their little Ninja world🌎
Unga bunga caveman fighting is still better.
Aw dude could you do a video on brawlers? Characters with strong footsies, grabs, and damage at the cost of slow attacks, weak mobility, and big hurtboxes. Think Balrog, Abigail, G/Q, Jack (Tekken), Jeffry (Virtua Fighter), Big Band, Shao Kahn, Broly, Swamp Thing, and Aganos. They tend to get lumped in with grapplers 'cause they're usually big guys, but I'd love to see them get some spotlight and distinction
Broly is literally a grappler, same as Abigail and swamp thing...
EY I AM A FAN AND THIS IS MY FIRST TIME WATCHING TILL THE END AND JOJO FANS NEED SOME GOD DAMN RESPECT AS THE SECOND BEST ANIME(first is DBZ). So yeah still love your content though
Rivals of aether?
Idk if thats the music am i crazy??
It's the menu theme yeah
17 is a command assist and therefore 18 is not a puppet character. ARIA, has assists in the exact same fashion, and she's not considered a puppet character at all.
Being a puppet character implies that you control you and the other entity AT THE SAME TIME. which means no fkin doing an animation to summon him to do one move and then they go away.
Wich archetype would you classify Bill from DRAGON BALL FIGHTERZ?
Thanks for the video and the additional knowledge!!!
Ms. Fortune
"i dont play guilty gear"
and so the curtain fell and he was beaten with strive backstage.
No puppet grappler? How about Melee ICs?
thank you for that ending LMAO
I’m like 90% sure that Eddie’s named after Iron Maiden’s mascot Eddie the Head, seeing as Guilty Gear is chock full of metal references
Android 18 is not a puppet character. A puppet character needs to have the puppet persist on the screen. Not just oooo she kicked her and now she’s gone. R.Mika isn’t a puppet character because of nadeshko Android 18 isn’t a puppet character either. Menat is borderline because her orb dosent persist in was staple puppet characters do.
Maybe the naruto storm characters deserved a mention here. Despite being a 3d fighter it does this very well with its 3 puppet ninjas
It's an arena fighter.
dear gekko squirrel , WHERE TF IS THE PART WHERE YOU TALK ABOUT GARGOS?
A shame talking about puppet characters and not even mentioning Carl or Relius Clover and their literal puppets.
Are you sure Hit isn’t a stance character? I’m fairly certain that his 236 special moves qualify as stances
AKTUALLY Zappa isn't a puppet character at all, his moveset just changes.
Didn’t have soul caliber 2 a similar fortune teller character commanding a glass orb
idk, I think its just me, but i feel like he sounds like a younger rimmy-downunder gaming
XRD Jack-O is literally an RTS game. Try to change my mf mind.
Ghost puppets? IS THAT A JOJO REFERENCE?!?!?!?@??!!?1@?@@1!
Bruh where is Blazblue Carl and relius ?? They are puppet characters who use actual puppet
Talk about jojo :)
he is not the 1st puppet character, it actually was the guy from the jojo game
For a grappler puppet character wouldn't ice climbers kind of fit that description?
well, not really, even though they are known for their broken grab in melee, they don't have a command grab, which I'd argue defines a grappler more. But I do agree with you about them being a puppet character.
@@FrackinFfoxglove ah I see I guess I also see them as grapplers not just because of the wobble(which sometimes get banned) but the desync throw combos they have. They get so much off of a grab that their whole gameplay is centered around it so I feel like even though they lack a command grab they kinda still feel like a grappler. Although I do see where you are coming from.
@@uriahmora743 Grapplers are more defined by forcing 50/50s with the existence of an unblockable high damage command throw with good oki and having the rest of their toolkit designed to get them into that position to force the 50/50 and to condition opponents to panic mash or jump in fear of the command throw.
other characters may have command grabs, but depending on their usage and how it fits in they're toolkit, they aren't necessarily classified as grapplers if a majority of their gameplan doesn't revolve around that centralizing aspect
Zato is a stand user.
Stand users are puppet users.
Therefore puppet users are Stand users.
arent the ice climbers from melee and brawl techinically a puppet grappler
Puppet grappler? Did someone say Ice Climbers?
Where’s kenshi noob saibot and ferra torr 😭my heart
kenshi and noob saibot are supposed to be of the zoner type, but they are also puppets
Xd “I don’t play GuiltyGear” if u could see ya now
The only puppet grappler I can think of is ferra torr from mkx
yay my favorite archetype the pupet or trap character less go
Android 18
Videl
Nappa
Ginyu
Are puppets?
A real puppet fighter is Alice from touhou Hisoutensoku
Is Videl in DBFZ a puppet character too? She fights along side Gohan
I don't Maybe look up Naruto puppit chartors
"GHOSTS"
"Big... Glass... BALL"
"down, fierce... WHAT THE FU-"
I came wanting to learn.
Instead, I learned nothing and was laughing the entire time.
Thank you for the entertainment, you've gained an instant sub.
He forgot about Mrs. Fortune from skullgirls