It's just bad. Like it's bad jazz. I know I know saying what is and isn't good jazz is the lowest form of conversation, but that little snippet the short played just sounded terrible. It sounded like he had no rhythm or soul or groove.
@@Dawnbreakerrhe’s playing off-rhythm improv. Not everyone is ready to hear this kind of Jazz. Just saying it is bad without fully sampling what it is doesn’t mean anything. Esp when one is talking about Jazz music, in which brilliantly creative improvisation is king. Coleman was doing exactly what an evolving Jazz musician should do- push the boundaries of what qualifies as Jazz sound and style coming out of the instrument the musician is playing to produce that Jazz music. Otherwise you just get a field of artists all imitating the same styles over and over again. The exact problem with a lot of modern HIPHOP.
@@ItchyKneeSonyou’re right; Americans have definitely butchered the English language, lol 😂 We’re the melting pot of the world; we ain’t navel gazing like how most countries operate culturally. There are both pros and cons to American society 🇺🇸
@@clev7989Cuz Miles Davis' music was also deranged. Look at his Album Aura for example. Most normal listeners would be shocked at how anyone would call that music.
I actually discovered him by listening to The Refused's album the shape of punk to come...years later I was digging their vinyl at a record store and discovered this and was like oh shit this is what they are referencing. This and Bitches Brew made me fall in love with Jazz growing up as a Punk/Hardcore kid.
the shape of things to come and never go away... If i compare Charlie Parking, with Cornetto Coleman, or Schock Corea with Billy the kid (Evans). they are all the same.... unreachable...
the thought of jazz fans assaulting a saxophonist backstage for improvising jazz is so funny. i imagine them hitting him with bags and screaming "YOU ARE NOT PLAYING IT PROPERLY"
@@tgnash28Death of Samantha slaps ironically, ornette was a fan and did several concerts with her (one of these concerts was recorded and an excerpt of it shows up on her first solo album)
Honestly most of us would dig it if you’re doing it right. Making everything a sus 4 was the new hot shit for jazz in the 60’s. Even now all that pentatonic language is still hip and exciting. Only ones pissed would be the guys who couldn’t hang or old cats that are sick of hearing it.
@@jonathanveenker6981 I just saw a Rick Beato video where he mentioned talking to Keith Jarrett about that. I don't know theory, so it's meaningless to me… 🤷🏿♀️
I've only dipped my toes into the jazz world over the decades, with hard rock, folk, and blues being my primary loves, but Coleman was always a standout in jazz for me. It's odd hearing that he wasn't as appreciated as I would have thought he deserved during his time.
If you want to piss jazz fans off, just call basic stuff brilliant. They HATE it 😊 EDIT: the amount of people taking my comments way too seriously is amazing :D
Basic as in count basie/early swing stuff, or basic as in kenny Gorelick? There is a big difference. I've never met a jazz musician worth anything that doesn't think basie or ben webster or anyone like that isn't brilliant.
@@nicholaswise5818 Nah, man, nah. I'm talking about 4/4 with the I-V-vi-IV progression and a generic verse/chous type structure. Put a jazz snob and a Swifty in a room together and there will be blood 😄
Eh I think everyone goes through some sort of "my thing is the best thing! I hate that other stuff!" phase, whether it's music, art, literature, food, sports, or whatever else. While it can be a pain to deal with snobs of any stripe, most people manage to grow out of it eventually.
He's my goat. I did a research project on him in 8th grade. I read about him in a book I owned, had 11 pages of notes, listened to 14 of his albums, it was fire
“Lonely Woman” is one of my favorite pieces. Powerful and wide in its message. Confusing and complex as the concept. Radical avant-garde artist for sure
Hell yes! Lonely Woman is AS important as any other great jazz composition. Even the Modern Jazz Quartet played it( pinnacle of straight jazz that they were) and named a whole lp after it. Pat Metheny has a gorgeous version on one of his earlier lps.. i wanna say Rejoicing( w Charlie Haden n Billy Higgins).. people are off their friggin’ but if they don’t recognize Ornette as a great composer. He’s not Duke Ellington.. he’s Ornette friggin’ Coleman! and if he only wrote “ Lonely Woman” it would be enough to cement his reputation in jazz for all time, imho. Thank you! Good call.
As a saxophonist and all-around musician, I have a lot of respect for the role that Coleman played in the advancement of the art form - he played a very similar role to what Schoenberg and Charles Ives were for the early 20th century classical music sphere. At the same time, I have never found enjoyment in any recording of his that I've EVER forced myself to listen to. If people had actually wanted to listen to that shit, he'd be getting imitated a hell of a lot more today. People practice playing like Bird, Trane, Brecker, Potter, Redman, Washington, etc. because it's coherent. Coleman makes Coltrane's peak spirituality days comparatively feel like a sunny walk in the park.
So why do you feel respect, if you don't like it? Is change and "advancement" a goal in itself, regardless of that it is? Schönbergs music was enjoyable, while this guy was annoying. That's not similar :)
@@herrbonk3635To you he is annoying, I LOVE his music. And Schoenberg's. Listen to "what reason could I give" it's so weird yet really touching and emotional. How does it even work?? Most of his other stuff (not the 80's harmelodic funk) feels really heavy and chaotic to me, which are elements I enjoy in music. It feels like the equivalent of Grindcore in Jazz.
except Stravinsky knew how to make real music which was (and is to this day) more meaningful in all music scene of the late 20th century and not just random notes being thrown at a mic. Not even close, buddy.
He has plenty of room to talk. Also, the context came from a Downbeat interview in the 1960s. Contextually, Miles didn't listen to music in his genre. By 1968, his last blindfold test, the year which he began to regularly record utilizing the Fender Rhodes and Fender bass, he was observed to only having records by The Byrds, Dionne Warwick, James Brown, Fifth Dimension, Tony Bennett and Aretha Franklin. Miles had lost interest in anything that was considered to be called "jazz".
@@robertlepper5460 not necessarily true. Yes, he wanted to make money, the music he was making particularly between 1969 and 1970 leaned towards the "whiter" rock audience, however, this shifted in 1971, as he was after "blacker" audience, shifting towards funkier music. Ultimately, his music, and release of his albums during 1969 to 1974 didn't keep up with what he was doing during live performances, which left his audiences 'lost'
Ornette was also recorded a concert with Yoko Ono. John Lennon wasn’t even around. Honestly, after listening to it, I think it’s the kind of musicians she needed around her rather than the clumsy rock jams Lennon was trying to make with her.
It's correct when it's scat music...but he tried to play note scat, which does not work and pretty much just destroys what Jazz is, since it doesn't follow swing tempo
@@cinnastag I'm confused - what does swing tempo have to do with the notes being played? Since when is Jazz solely confined by that anyways? Are we really saying what Coleman did didn't work in 2023 lmao
@@davidbaise5137if there ever is a space ship leaving the Earth for another planet, and one of the conditions for being accepted aboard is you can bring only ONE album with you, the album I'd bring is Bitches Brew.
His quartet with Haden, Blackwell and Cherry was absolutely seminal. Dewey Redman took over from Ornette thereby creating *Old and New Dreams* , blending Ornette’s music with an explicit African influence. Quite outstanding.
Eventually is the at pinnacle of Free Jazz. Its super fast paced and you can hear coherence in the playing and can vibe out and marvel at the virtuosity and theres not too many cooks in the kitchen. Large ensemble free jazz can be quite difficult.
As a metalhead, I point to jazz as an earlier example of what happened to metal. 1) New style of music, seen as "too outrageous, uncivilized, wild, grating on the ears" to be taken seriously. 2) Young kids pursue it despite the social backlash, and come to love it for its underground vibe, acquired taste, and rebellious nature. 3) Over time it becomes more normal to hear, it gets less hate and more people start to show up, often playing it way better than the people early to the scene. 4) New people start playing it freely, not as anything rebellious or like they're persecuted for it, but just for a pure love of its sound, unlike the first people who got into it. 5) Old fans resent the new fans for acting like all of the old stigmas don't matter anymore, cause the OGs have their identity in the music tied with its hostile social reception it originally had. So they make up bs criteria and nitpick any new music that doesn't sound exactly like their 30 year old records to call it "not real jazz/metal", and anything that does sound like said records is a copycat and unoriginal. Seriously, the phrase "I don't like this new stuff, cause this band is too young" is a legitimate reason to gatekeep shit that hits way harder than anything the old fucks who say that had when they were green to the scene. A genre literally defined by playing music that breaks the rules all of a sudden has to have rules to keep it pure apparently, as if it being a "dirty" kind of music isn't what made it special in the first place. All you hip hop fans need to watch out. Your genre's even fresher than metal but it's getting whitewashed and sterilized to shit too. I just hope they don't start creating metal programs in colleges like they did jazz, but even metal screams are getting rigorously studied now and becoming a more formal skill. Trial and error DIY vocals are what make every screamer sound really unique, and makes a voice feel personal and not like a singer who just took a bunch of voice lessons and had a marketing team write lyrics. They took jazz and forced it into a formalized box of do's and don'ts, and now the whole fanbase is critical of anyone who plays it. There's still a lot of metal fans that just happily vibe with whatever they hear, and it needs to stay that way. Man I hate gatekeepers. All they do is ruin something good.
Very well put. This can apply to trends outside of music too. I.e. fashion, film, comics, video games, etc. Just look at the decline of the arcade racing video game subgenre.
love that thing when theres a musician few casual music listeners know about and all contemporary musicians hated but they basically did a beloved genre 15-20 years before its time. same w visual art and literature too.
Back in '69, I used to play the B side of Cold Turkey (Don't Worry Kyoko) @ 16rpm, pretending it was a cow, slowly dying. I shortly came to fully appreciate it after getting into Captain Beefheart and (much later) Public Image Limited. Ornett's always been in that same niche for me...
Coleman swung the door wide open for avant gaurde musicians across all mainstream music. It's likely we would never have had Frank Zappa or Captain Beefheart without him. Legend!
Ask it to me. It was trained who was such a well-established musician to play changes. Is that open the door up towards free jazz and then retrospect that would be due to Miles Davis?
In any musical genre, Jazz let’s say, you occasionally need someone to come in and punch everybody in the face. Miles Davis didn’t change the tone, it was Ornette Coleman and John Coltrane. To paraphrase Flying Lotus, they disrupted the flavor.
he played a plastic pakistani-import saxophone on purpose because of how dry and nasal and piercing the tone was. you know guys who had been perfecting their pure, warm, mellow brass and reed tones for the last 40 years had bloody murder in their ears when he hit them upside the head with that
i think guys like ornette were simply outgrowths/reactions to the rigid structures and tonalities of bebop. ornette could play bebop, but he chose to follow his ears, and i'm certainly thankful for it!
traditional (prewar) jazz was the buttoned-up formal stuff, bebop was looser and more improvisational-it's what the cats would play against each other late into the night after the evening gigs at birdland. eventually you got thelonius monk whose melodic style came from attempting to play "the notes between the keys" and eventually coleman found a way to get there
When I was young, I listened a lot to traditional jazz. Then one day, incidentally, I happened to listen to some "free jazz" by Swedish musician Bernt Rosengren and his friends. They played a piece by Ornette Coleman, "The Jungle Is A Skyscraper". From that day on, I was sold on this kind of music.
This is exactly what i hear when i think of jazz music. Crazy to think his style that was so outrageous at the time has shaped and defined the genre since
Interesting interview. As someone who gets bored easily, I totally get his viewpoint! I didn’t realize he lived until 2004! Was there ever a similar interview with Buddy Rich, with him discussing the running of a band through various eras and the creative challenges? That would be interesting.
Took my mother to see Kenny G for her birthday a few years ago, and I was blown away by how much of a student of jazz he is. Yeah, his smooth jazz from the 80s and 90s is polarizing, it he did a rendition of Naima did Coltrane justice. The dude has chops.
If you want to piss off jazz fans, tell them KennyG is the greatest sax player and jazz composer of all time. Actually it won't piss them off, they will just think you must have been dropped on your head when you were a child
For a whole genre and movement and lifestyle supposedly devoted to improvisation and free form, you will never find a bigger bunch of gatekeeping snobs than jazz people
I don’t think that’s what jazz is. I think it’s more nuanced than that. A lot of it is about building on different structures in different ways. I think Coleman sounds like ass, but maybe that’s bc I don’t know what he’s building on. I don’t think anybody knew what he was building on back then, which was probably part of why he was relieved poorly.
![I.N "HALLUCINATION" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/n5B5q1Hwt_U/mqdefault.jpg)
This is an excerpt from a longer video on my channel. Check the description for the link!
The description appears empty to me
it's not there.... cmonnn
Or you could have just put it on your comment. . .
A nonexistent description 😂
I can't find the whole video 😢
My man was too jazzy for jazz itself
🤣🤣🤣🤣
Right😂
Out of this world..
"I call this piece... fly on your nose at 3 AM"
I can't sleep.
Oh my goodness 😂😂
🏆
I read this just as the clip played🤣🤣
Why is this so accurate 😂😂😂
And that’s why “the shape of jazz to come” is the PERFECT album title.
He knew people would eventually catch on.
Perhaps not by the greater jazz scene, but to some it's perfect
Genius
It's just bad. Like it's bad jazz. I know I know saying what is and isn't good jazz is the lowest form of conversation, but that little snippet the short played just sounded terrible. It sounded like he had no rhythm or soul or groove.
Exactly 💯
@@Dawnbreakerrhe’s playing off-rhythm improv. Not everyone is ready to hear this kind of Jazz. Just saying it is bad without fully sampling what it is doesn’t mean anything. Esp when one is talking about Jazz music, in which brilliantly creative improvisation is king. Coleman was doing exactly what an evolving Jazz musician should do- push the boundaries of what qualifies as Jazz sound and style coming out of the instrument the musician is playing to produce that Jazz music. Otherwise you just get a field of artists all imitating the same styles over and over again. The exact problem with a lot of modern HIPHOP.
I call this piece, "how a seizure looks and feels like, but as sounds."
How it feels.*
What it feels like.*
xX--How does it feel like?--Xx
What do you call Engrish produced by native English speakers?
@@ItchyKneeSonSometimes you just gotta… feel the music
Low-key true.
@@ItchyKneeSonyou’re right; Americans have definitely butchered the English language, lol 😂
We’re the melting pot of the world; we ain’t navel gazing like how most countries operate culturally.
There are both pros and cons to American society 🇺🇸
Lmao😂
Improvising in a marching band! That's some epic shit I'd like to witness.
The big band is really not that different from a large marching band. This is not a joke, do check what instrument groups they usually got.
During a march….not a marching band. A march is a style of music predating the marching band. It’s not marching band music
@@jaxter193 The best way I know to differentiate them is as military marching bands and corps marching bands.
Marching bands are generally boring, that would make it interesting.
@@chilledburrito Personally, I disagree, but to each his own.
They said it was "free jazz", yet i had to pay $15 for a ticket
Nah mane you didn't just make that joke
free form jazz
🥁 😂
Hadn't heard that one. Thank you, I will add that to my dad joke repertoire. Not all heroes wear capes, unless you do, then carry on.
Leave. I'll show you the door.
"all screwed up inside" by Miles Davis is actually a pretty good compliment
Great name for a song as well.
Why is that :o
Why? (I Dont know nothing about jazz)
@@clev7989Cuz Miles Davis' music was also deranged. Look at his Album Aura for example. Most normal listeners would be shocked at how anyone would call that music.
@@tomislavplaysguitar thank you for the explanation!
On occasion I like to listen to Ornette Coleman, Alice Coltrane, and Pharoah Sanders. They’re like punk rock for jazz heads.
My uncle talks very highly of pharoah sanders but ive never checked out any of his music do you have any recs for albums?
Funnily enough, through this short I realised that Refused "the shape of punk to come" album was inspired by this, which is pretty cool.
@@klinkov6393karma, thembi, and tauhid are his best records in my opinion…
@@klinkov6393 karma is magic
@@klinkov6393 his best album is ”karma” from 1968. It’s a must listen
"You're the worst jazz musician I've ever heard of."
"Ah, but you have heard of me!"
And I half expected your sax to be made of wood.
@@CJPoozYes, only the reed is metal.
Most jazz players: hey Jack, you got to try playing on heroin.
Coleman: you guys never tried amphetamines I take it?..😂
@@forbandkind09 bro it’s a reference to pirates of the Caribbean genius
Their opinions don't matter as long as they say your name.
Dude literally played hardcore on the saxophone. My new favorite jazz artist
I actually discovered him by listening to The Refused's album the shape of punk to come...years later I was digging their vinyl at a record store and discovered this and was like oh shit this is what they are referencing. This and Bitches Brew made me fall in love with Jazz growing up as a Punk/Hardcore kid.
If your playing makes people literally want to destroy your instrument, you must be doing something notable
for real, he must have never felt more sure of himself
Something like dementia or similar!😅😅
Shit I'd wear it like a badge of honor.
You're*
Notable is not the same as good.
It’s funny but jazz fans can be just as big of gate-keepers as punks and metalheads.
They're usually worse
This is not something new, they're usually the most pretentious ones
Wym, they're the OG gatekeepers
@@TheJargonKing Don’t invoke Godwin’s law so early in the conversation.
Jazz invented gatekeeping to cope with the gatekeeping of classical music.
A solid way of pissing off jazz fans is saying "Oh hey this sounds like Persona music."
Persona and jazz fan master race 🎷🎺
or by saying "this sounds like elevator music" (usually to bossa nova)
😂😂
@@nick_phi11ips shout out to my father for doing literally that with jazz fusion
In other words Jazz funk?
Never been into him but i sure as hell respect his bravery and sticking to his vision.
Man literally named his album 'the shape of jazz to come' and then ended up being correct, fucking legend
He wanted to name it Focus on Sanity, actually. Oc plays harmolodics, not jazz.
Not even close to correct...Acid, and Funk Jazz, took over.
The shape of things that came and went.
@@paddgintongbareall5827you're denying the explosion of free jazz?
the shape of things to come and never go away...
If i compare Charlie Parking,
with Cornetto Coleman, or Schock Corea with Billy the kid (Evans). they are all the same....
unreachable...
Imagine being offended by music & assaulting the musician & their instrument. That’s it. Just imagine being that maladjusted.
Art saints, martyrs of their own devotion.
It was the 50s, I’m sure race had something to do with it as well
@@wtwrush weren't many jazz greats black?
@@DariusGheghesan yeah, African Americans basically invented all American music. Blues, Jazz, Rock & Roll, R&B, Rap & Hip hop.
@@DariusGheghesan Yeah, but don't tell this idiot.
irl squidward
You have to be ready for his music. Seeing Ornette Colman live was an experience that I treasure.
I do find it funny that he improvised on a march😅
Sounds like he's panicking because a bee landed on his saxophone
That cat was a pioneer to say the least. He inspired as many as he pissed off.
Stop calling jazz players "cats" (unless you're an African American in the 1940s)
@Frustratedartist2 okay gatekeeper.
Ah yes, Free Jazz
They said it was "free jazz", yet i had to pay $15 for a ticket
free form jazz
@Mr_Boifriend if you walk down the hallway and to the right you'll find this same reply except it's a comment
@@sillypinkmoth if you walk down that same hallway and look again, you see it's the same commenter.
@@nadervio if you run down a different hallway and check to see if the lights are off you'll see it was posted 1 year ago
Shape of Jazz to Come was a revelation. Still astonishing to listen to today.
"I guess you guys aren't ready for that, but your kids are gonna love it."
If that one mosquito humming in your ear was a saxophonist 💀
Long live Ornette Coleman and his fantastic music!
Saw him three times live, his band was always outstanding just like him.
the thought of jazz fans assaulting a saxophonist backstage for improvising jazz is so funny.
i imagine them hitting him with bags and screaming "YOU ARE NOT PLAYING IT PROPERLY"
😂😂😂
And I always thought jazz was more laidback than a lot of other genres 😭
“WERE YOU RUSHING OR WERE YOU DRAGGING?”
@@ALLFORONE5omni man
Just teach him to play the damn thing
Ornette Coleman was my close friend & mentor in Jazz 🎷
He is deeply missed.....
i am sorry for your loss, best wishes ❤ i enjoy jazz but don't know many musicians so i just recently found out about him.
Sure
Suuuureee
Suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuurrrreeeeee......
proof?
"Jazz is all about improvisation!"
[improvises]
"Hey, you're doing it wrong!"
Improvisation is not the same as random playing...
@@herrbonk3635 He's just improvising too well for your crap ears.
@@swissarmyknight4306 Music sounds different to everyone, man. If he doesn't like a guy's jazz, then he doesn't like it.
@@swissarmyknight4306 You are the type of person to enjoy Yoko Ono
@@tgnash28Death of Samantha slaps
ironically, ornette was a fan and did several concerts with her (one of these concerts was recorded and an excerpt of it shows up on her first solo album)
And here I thought jazz fans were just naturally always pissed off.
_"You have to listen to the notes he's not playing"_
*I could do that at home*
if you really want to piss off jazz fans, play the 4th of every chord while soloing 💀
Thanks for the tip! My playing sounds much better now :)
McCoy Tyner made a career out of doing exactly that
Honestly most of us would dig it if you’re doing it right. Making everything a sus 4 was the new hot shit for jazz in the 60’s. Even now all that pentatonic language is still hip and exciting. Only ones pissed would be the guys who couldn’t hang or old cats that are sick of hearing it.
@@jonathanveenker6981 I just saw a Rick Beato video where he mentioned talking to Keith Jarrett about that. I don't know theory, so it's meaningless to me… 🤷🏿♀️
Chords only apply to piano and stringed instruments.
I knew him i played music with him. He was a genius!!
I've only dipped my toes into the jazz world over the decades, with hard rock, folk, and blues being my primary loves, but Coleman was always a standout in jazz for me. It's odd hearing that he wasn't as appreciated as I would have thought he deserved during his time.
I love how devious he looks in every picture
"I call this piece... perpetually searching for the right note"
The clip you just played is way more melodic than most of his stuff
Big yikes
this is the comment i came for
@@AC-hj9tvbig cringe stop saying yikes are you a soccer grandma
@@LEMOnBRaINn nah just the guy banging the soccer GILFs
Yike mf@@LEMOnBRaINn
If you want to piss jazz fans off, just call basic stuff brilliant. They HATE it 😊
EDIT: the amount of people taking my comments way too seriously is amazing :D
Basic as in count basie/early swing stuff, or basic as in kenny Gorelick? There is a big difference. I've never met a jazz musician worth anything that doesn't think basie or ben webster or anyone like that isn't brilliant.
@@nicholaswise5818 Nah, man, nah. I'm talking about 4/4 with the I-V-vi-IV progression and a generic verse/chous type structure. Put a jazz snob and a Swifty in a room together and there will be blood 😄
Eh
I think everyone goes through some sort of "my thing is the best thing! I hate that other stuff!" phase, whether it's music, art, literature, food, sports, or whatever else. While it can be a pain to deal with snobs of any stripe, most people manage to grow out of it eventually.
@@MarkArandjusbaby now they got baad blood
"when kenny g solos over louis armstrong's 'what a wonderful world'...ahh, it doesn't get any better than than, eh?"
Miles Davis : “that boy ain’t right”😂😂😂
“Hey! That guy’s playing kinda faster than most jazz is played!”
“And he’s making stuff up!”
“LETS GET HIM!”
He's my goat. I did a research project on him in 8th grade. I read about him in a book I owned, had 11 pages of notes, listened to 14 of his albums, it was fire
dude caught a bee in a cup and called it jazz.
Facts 🗣️🔥🔥‼️‼️
“Do you like jazz?”
Bro put a bee up to the saxophone and said “do you like jazz?” And everyone wanted him dead
“Lonely Woman” is one of my favorite pieces. Powerful and wide in its message. Confusing and complex as the concept. Radical avant-garde artist for sure
Hell yes! Lonely Woman is AS important as any other great jazz composition. Even the Modern Jazz Quartet played it( pinnacle of straight jazz that they were) and named a whole lp after it. Pat Metheny has a gorgeous version on one of his earlier lps.. i wanna say Rejoicing( w Charlie Haden n Billy Higgins).. people are off their friggin’ but if they don’t recognize Ornette as a great composer. He’s not Duke Ellington.. he’s Ornette friggin’ Coleman! and if he only wrote “ Lonely Woman” it would be enough to cement his reputation in jazz for all time, imho. Thank you! Good call.
As a saxophonist and all-around musician, I have a lot of respect for the role that Coleman played in the advancement of the art form - he played a very similar role to what Schoenberg and Charles Ives were for the early 20th century classical music sphere. At the same time, I have never found enjoyment in any recording of his that I've EVER forced myself to listen to.
If people had actually wanted to listen to that shit, he'd be getting imitated a hell of a lot more today. People practice playing like Bird, Trane, Brecker, Potter, Redman, Washington, etc. because it's coherent. Coleman makes Coltrane's peak spirituality days comparatively feel like a sunny walk in the park.
So why do you feel respect, if you don't like it? Is change and "advancement" a goal in itself, regardless of that it is? Schönbergs music was enjoyable, while this guy was annoying. That's not similar :)
@@herrbonk3635 I don't know shit about jazz but I find it interesting how this guy is still dividing people all these years later
@@ThePsychicFish Well, people choosing to pretend a naked emperor has nice clothes will always provoke more honest people, for good reason.
@@herrbonk3635To you he is annoying, I LOVE his music. And Schoenberg's.
Listen to "what reason could I give" it's so weird yet really touching and emotional. How does it even work??
Most of his other stuff (not the 80's harmelodic funk) feels really heavy and chaotic to me, which are elements I enjoy in music. It feels like the equivalent of Grindcore in Jazz.
@@WalterKlemmerPianoGrindcore in Jazz? My man…just wait till you hear about John Zorn
I've seen him live. His band played on a riverfront. The music was fun.
Sounds like when a loony tunes character gets all high and starts trippin, I like it
Stravinsky moment for jazz
Except that Stravinsky can't give you hearing loss
@@DrinkWater713 He can startle you in a concert hall when you fall asleep though and give you a heart attack
except Stravinsky knew how to make real music which was (and is to this day) more meaningful in all music scene of the late 20th century and not just random notes being thrown at a mic. Not even close, buddy.
you are such a loser daniel
@@danielperales3958yes because Coleman's music was random notes. Dude, this is just blatant dismissal because YOU don't like it.
That man was SHREDDING
That sax playing was badass
To be so way ahead of your time, getting nothing but adversity and still stay true to yourself requires incredible character and confidence.
His playing is honestly really beautiful. Just the raw emotion it elicits is really hard to find anywhere else
Kind of shred metal and punky. I like it
Bro sounds like a buzzing bee. Love that
I love that it's called "the shape of jazz to come" and that's how a lot of jazz sounds now, a real visionary
Ah yes, _Drunk Mosquito_ is one of my favorite pieces.
That sounded like someone trying to strangle a trumpeter swan.
This sounds exactly what i thought jazz sounds like as a kid 😂
"All screwed up inside???" Miles is one to talk.
He has plenty of room to talk. Also, the context came from a Downbeat interview in the 1960s.
Contextually, Miles didn't listen to music in his genre. By 1968, his last blindfold test, the year which he began to regularly record utilizing the Fender Rhodes and Fender bass, he was observed to only having records by The Byrds, Dionne Warwick, James Brown, Fifth Dimension, Tony Bennett and Aretha Franklin. Miles had lost interest in anything that was considered to be called "jazz".
@cali22boi Miles wanted to make of money from the white rock audience.
@@robertlepper5460 not necessarily true. Yes, he wanted to make money, the music he was making particularly between 1969 and 1970 leaned towards the "whiter" rock audience, however, this shifted in 1971, as he was after "blacker" audience, shifting towards funkier music. Ultimately, his music, and release of his albums during 1969 to 1974 didn't keep up with what he was doing during live performances, which left his audiences 'lost'
Ornette was also recorded a concert with Yoko Ono. John Lennon wasn’t even around. Honestly, after listening to it, I think it’s the kind of musicians she needed around her rather than the clumsy rock jams Lennon was trying to make with her.
Ornette's playing is beautiful and sublime. A truly great composer, too. Thank you Ornette for your music!!
When the mosquito taunts me for being unable to smack it: (edit: eeeeeyyyyyy 69 likes! Nice!)
Also see: “Cats when their owners look away from them for 0.5 femtoseconds”
@@themac6356 as well as the moment you shut your eyes to go to bed
Man played the flight of the bumblebee on saxophone and people got mad
Roy Eldridge Said:"I Listened To Him Drunk-I Listened To Him Sober & Couldn't Understand Him-Either Way"!!!
Ornette Colman is awesome. He was my gateway to jazz music as someone who grew up listening to punk music.
bro just turned into a mosquito
I always think Ornette Coleman as what non-jazz fans think jazz is. Just a flurry of seemingly random notes.
i mean it can work, but ppl hear the difference
it is quoted at times in jazz
I think the same my friend! I'm sure it's quite true for the most part.
It's correct when it's scat music...but he tried to play note scat, which does not work and pretty much just destroys what Jazz is, since it doesn't follow swing tempo
@@cinnastag I'm confused - what does swing tempo have to do with the notes being played? Since when is Jazz solely confined by that anyways?
Are we really saying what Coleman did didn't work in 2023 lmao
thats why they dont like jazz
Are we just gonna ignore Miles throwing stones from his glass house with tunes like bitches brew?
That was way later.
What @Vingul said.
Come on, BB is way cool.
@@davidbaise5137if there ever is a space ship leaving the Earth for another planet, and one of the conditions for being accepted aboard is you can bring only ONE album with you, the album I'd bring is Bitches Brew.
@@heidiheidiho6412 Got that shit on vinyl, feel the same way
His quartet with Haden, Blackwell and Cherry was absolutely seminal. Dewey Redman took over from Ornette thereby creating *Old and New Dreams* , blending Ornette’s music with an explicit African influence. Quite outstanding.
Eventually is the at pinnacle of Free Jazz. Its super fast paced and you can hear coherence in the playing and can vibe out and marvel at the virtuosity and theres not too many cooks in the kitchen. Large ensemble free jazz can be quite difficult.
As a metalhead, I point to jazz as an earlier example of what happened to metal. 1) New style of music, seen as "too outrageous, uncivilized, wild, grating on the ears" to be taken seriously. 2) Young kids pursue it despite the social backlash, and come to love it for its underground vibe, acquired taste, and rebellious nature. 3) Over time it becomes more normal to hear, it gets less hate and more people start to show up, often playing it way better than the people early to the scene. 4) New people start playing it freely, not as anything rebellious or like they're persecuted for it, but just for a pure love of its sound, unlike the first people who got into it. 5) Old fans resent the new fans for acting like all of the old stigmas don't matter anymore, cause the OGs have their identity in the music tied with its hostile social reception it originally had. So they make up bs criteria and nitpick any new music that doesn't sound exactly like their 30 year old records to call it "not real jazz/metal", and anything that does sound like said records is a copycat and unoriginal. Seriously, the phrase "I don't like this new stuff, cause this band is too young" is a legitimate reason to gatekeep shit that hits way harder than anything the old fucks who say that had when they were green to the scene. A genre literally defined by playing music that breaks the rules all of a sudden has to have rules to keep it pure apparently, as if it being a "dirty" kind of music isn't what made it special in the first place. All you hip hop fans need to watch out. Your genre's even fresher than metal but it's getting whitewashed and sterilized to shit too. I just hope they don't start creating metal programs in colleges like they did jazz, but even metal screams are getting rigorously studied now and becoming a more formal skill. Trial and error DIY vocals are what make every screamer sound really unique, and makes a voice feel personal and not like a singer who just took a bunch of voice lessons and had a marketing team write lyrics. They took jazz and forced it into a formalized box of do's and don'ts, and now the whole fanbase is critical of anyone who plays it. There's still a lot of metal fans that just happily vibe with whatever they hear, and it needs to stay that way. Man I hate gatekeepers. All they do is ruin something good.
Is the cycle a hobby to an art to a science back to a hobby?
Very well put. This can apply to trends outside of music too. I.e. fashion, film, comics, video games, etc. Just look at the decline of the arcade racing video game subgenre.
4) eh not so clear, a lot of it is also for commercial etc reasons
man, now people are gatekeeping gatekeeping? what has this world come to smh
Sounds like your gatekeeping scream technique 😂
the content you make is incredible and so so so interesting!
So basically he was hated because he was better than everyone
Ahahah sure
Sounds like bro was off the zaza. 💀🌿
love that thing when theres a musician few casual music listeners know about and all contemporary musicians hated but they basically did a beloved genre 15-20 years before its time. same w visual art and literature too.
Beethoven is a pretty famous example
Is this part of an upcoming full video? I really hope it is!
when miles davis tells you YOU'RE all messed up inside.
To be fair if I went to my local night club and the DJ wailed like Yoko Ono for 30 minutes over a breakbeat I’d be kinda pissed too
I'd be pissed if they didnt have merch lol
@@x_VineM_x i feel some chaotic energy here and I like it
@@x_VineM_x 100%
People often forget that you have to actually buy a very expensive ticket to a show
Back in '69, I used to play the B side of Cold Turkey (Don't Worry Kyoko) @ 16rpm, pretending it was a cow, slowly dying. I shortly came to fully appreciate it after getting into Captain Beefheart and (much later) Public Image Limited. Ornett's always been in that same niche for me...
Homie was trolling with his genius
Lonely Woman is still one of my fav jazz songs ever
"the worst that can happen is I don't make the audition"- him probably
What a huge compliment from Miles Davis
Coleman swung the door wide open for avant gaurde musicians across all mainstream music. It's likely we would never have had Frank Zappa or Captain Beefheart without him. Legend!
So we have that to blame him for as well....
@@drmodestoesq “blame“ for influencing Zappa is a bad thing?
Please expand on that comment.
Ask it to me. It was trained who was such a well-established musician to play changes. Is that open the door up towards free jazz and then retrospect that would be due to Miles Davis?
Velvet underground.lou Reed
@@osbornvonpulaski1642Zappa's music is ugly and annoying. Explained
Thank you for introducing me to Ornette Colman. This sounds like music to my ears!
Sounds like a saxophone having a stroke.
In any musical genre, Jazz let’s say, you occasionally need someone to come in and punch everybody in the face. Miles Davis didn’t change the tone, it was Ornette Coleman and John Coltrane. To paraphrase Flying Lotus, they disrupted the flavor.
he played a plastic pakistani-import saxophone on purpose because of how dry and nasal and piercing the tone was. you know guys who had been perfecting their pure, warm, mellow brass and reed tones for the last 40 years had bloody murder in their ears when he hit them upside the head with that
i think guys like ornette were simply outgrowths/reactions to the rigid structures and tonalities of bebop. ornette could play bebop, but he chose to follow his ears, and i'm certainly thankful for it!
traditional (prewar) jazz was the buttoned-up formal stuff, bebop was looser and more improvisational-it's what the cats would play against each other late into the night after the evening gigs at birdland. eventually you got thelonius monk whose melodic style came from attempting to play "the notes between the keys" and eventually coleman found a way to get there
In art if people are mad at you for little things you are doing something right
When I was young, I listened a lot to traditional jazz. Then one day, incidentally, I happened to listen to some "free jazz" by Swedish musician Bernt Rosengren and his friends. They played a piece by Ornette Coleman, "The Jungle Is A Skyscraper". From that day on, I was sold on this kind of music.
This is exactly what i hear when i think of jazz music. Crazy to think his style that was so outrageous at the time has shaped and defined the genre since
his music just feels really human
Yes, if you're a misanthrope.
I don’t listen to a lot of jazz, but beating someone up and getting mad about how the jazz sounds is the dumbest shit I’ve ever heard
This ^^^
Imagine traumatizing someone's life and destroying what's essentially his partner over a difference in music taste
He sounded like the yoko ono of jazz
Interesting interview. As someone who gets bored easily, I totally get his viewpoint! I didn’t realize he lived until 2004! Was there ever a similar interview with Buddy Rich, with him discussing the running of a band through various eras and the creative challenges? That would be interesting.
That's some sick freeform tho
I always thought in order to piss off jazz fans, you would show them any song performed by Kenny G.
Took my mother to see Kenny G for her birthday a few years ago, and I was blown away by how much of a student of jazz he is. Yeah, his smooth jazz from the 80s and 90s is polarizing, it he did a rendition of Naima did Coltrane justice. The dude has chops.
Ah yes. Jazz. Where the object is to make the music as unpleasant aounding as possible.
If jazz is unpleasant to your ears, then I guess you've never heard extreme metal/noise sub genres 😂
If you want to piss off jazz fans, tell them KennyG is the greatest sax player and jazz composer of all time. Actually it won't piss them off, they will just think you must have been dropped on your head when you were a child
Who's the sax player on careless whisper he's pretty good I think 👍😊
BUT then there's people like me who like Kenny G !
I developed a solid dislike of the sax thanks to Kenny G.
He brings out the Jazz in Jazz I have few of his works plys his style of play is Legendary imo...
Frank Zappa once said Jazz like this sounds like a Zoo burning down and all the animals are freaking out. I have to agree...
For a whole genre and movement and lifestyle supposedly devoted to improvisation and free form, you will never find a bigger bunch of gatekeeping snobs than jazz people
The whole genre isn't dedicated to free form, that's what Ornette popularised.
I don’t think that’s what jazz is. I think it’s more nuanced than that. A lot of it is about building on different structures in different ways. I think Coleman sounds like ass, but maybe that’s bc I don’t know what he’s building on. I don’t think anybody knew what he was building on back then, which was probably part of why he was relieved poorly.