Spells that Break the Dungeon in D&D
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- Опубликовано: 11 сен 2024
- Have your D&D players ever used spells to completely bypass large parts of a dungeon? If so, you know exactly what I mean by spells that break dungeons. In this video, my friend Joe and I talk about several spells that shortcut dungeons in Dungeons & Dragons and what dungeon masters can do about them.
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#dnd #dungeonsanddragons
Which spells cause problems in your games and how do you deal with them?
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I had a druid almost end an entire mystery arc by using speak with plants to try and solve a murder.
I did a one-on-one once where my player had both an invisibility spell and an item that let him fly, and basically flew invisibly through the entire dungeon. The only decent traps incorporated roadblocks or anti-magic cones.
So, it's not from D&D, but SWSE (which is mechanically a cousin to 3.5 and 4e).
I had a party of Jedi using Move Object to basically Fly around all my challenging terrain obstacles (as well as nearly literally mopping the floor with my npc guards).
My solution so far has been opening the battlefield up considerably. Most offensive Force Powers have a max range of about 12 squares, but blaster weapons deal substantial damage at any level and have such long range that it would be a pain to try to use a map large enough for range increment penalties to come into play. Sure, they can deflect or Vader Block a few shots, but it quickly becomes a war of attrition if the Jedi can't find a way to close the gap.
Detect magic
For the duration, you sense the presence of magic within 30 feet of you.
If you sense magic in this way, you can use your action to see a faint aura around any visible creature or object in the area that bears magic, and you learn its school of magic, if any.
The spell can penetrate most barriers, but it is blocked by 1 foot of stone, 1 inch of common metal, a thin sheet of lead, or 3 feet of wood or dirt.
The detect magic spell would let you sense that there is magic in a 30ft radius. If the visible object or visible creature is magical, then you can use an action to gain further information. Detect magic does not have the ability by itself to see an arcane eye, as it is an invisible object. There would be a general sense of magic. If there is any other magically affected creature or object then there would be no way to discern subtle differences without vision.
Nondetection would work well, basically 8hrs of invisibility vs all divination spells.
Really like the web idea for the eye btw, doors can get old, specially if somehow in a rough cave environment.
Arcane eye has some limitations besides being able to be physically interacted with, as small of a chance as that may be with it being 1inch diameter.
It is blind to anything farther than 30ft from it.
What is able to be “perceived” is still limited by the perception of the caster. A low perception means that perhaps the caster never saw a lot of the traps during the scouting.
It cannot travel to other planes when cast, so perhaps the dungeon houses a portal to the rest of the dungeon. Beginning, middle, near the end... you can meter the effectiveness of the spell while allowing it to be functional.
Cloud of daggers has destroyed some great encounters.
"I started highschool when I was 5."
Now we know why he says a different length of time in every video!
Oh no! They're on to me! 😬
Easy fix to Arcane Eye: Don't have all the monsters sit there and idle until adventurers enter the room. Have them relocate or hide in side rooms. Have them move the treasure.
Arcane Eye, meet your nemesis: Closed Door.
The eye is invisible so the monster would have no idea it walk pass them unless they have true sight. Having true sight monster this early is kinda worrying
One time back in AD&D, i was playing a Wild Mage and during combat i cast Magic Missile but it ended wild surging, and when i rolled on the chart, i rolled a 46 - All normal doors, secret doors, portcullises, etc. (including those locked or barred)within 60' of caster swing open. It included a well hidden secret door to a treasure room. : )
@The Infinity Sock He was more shocked than anything else, but it did make him give me FU!
I've never played with someone who considered their familiar replaceable, they're always carefully protected and part of the party at the least as a mascot.
When the familiar "dies" the fey spirit is just jettisoned back to its home plane. When you recast it, the spirit comes back. However in the case of a familiar NOT gotten through the spell find familiar, yeah we protect those for sure.
I have a player who refuses to name his familiars, just refers to them by the purpose he uses them for. Spy-ey McFlap-Flap is his owl. He refuses to get attached, because he sees them as tools. He then gets really attached to his mounts, because they are real. They get names, treats, toys, and everything. He also does everything he can to protect them. His riding dog caught a fireball, and he spent his following turn doing nothing, mourning her death.
I don't really worry too much about a familiar dying, because like my character KNOWS it is not really dead and they can just summon it back whenever they have spare time, so it is more like an inconvenience than anything else.
thanks for the vid!
Contact Other Plane only asks that other being. Not only might that bother said being but is also limited to whatever that being may or may not know ... and honestly, why the hell would a being on another plane even care about whatever topic the hero bothers it about and thus have an answer?
I think the best way that I have found so far is to use in-game methods that are available to the player to counter their potentially exploitive options.
E.g. have the villain send spies or use divination magic to learn about who killed his lieutenant, have him ask "Will my dungeon be attacked today?" via Contact Other Plane and then set his dungeon to high alert and activate the more powerful defenses (hek, even Augury to know which "path" - aka activate or not activate defenses - is good or bad might already be enough). Maybe even have the villain set up tests to check how the heroes respond to various situations (mercenaries are fun for that ... hell, he could even use a spy to send them to the dungeon of his rival and observe how they do there ...)
A couple of good options in the books that work vs most things are
- thick walls & thicker floors (many things - including loads of divination magic is blocked or at least severely hampered if it has to go through too much stuff)
- lead lined doors and walls (potentially behind the surface bricks; lead blocks divination even better than just about any other mundane option)
- guards that ritually keep Detect Magic up at all times in critical areas (choke points; high value areas)
- having Alarm up in most areas (make it the daily ritual of the local shaman to spend an hour each shift to re-apply all the Alarms ritually...)
- Glyphs of Warding to prepare automated responses (from Dispel Magic on Divination Magic over Misty Stepping the target into a cell on the floor below to things like Suggesting them to leave)
- permanent Major Image (e.g. cast at 6th level for permanency)
- Nystul's Magic Aura to hide illusions - or traps - from detection (potentially permanently by casting it sufficiently often; also neat to hide undead among corpses ...)
- Nondetection on guards or villains (either the spell or via the Amulet of Proof against Detection and Location which also helps against a couple more threats)
in earlier editions Gorgon Blood in the mortar could block teleportation
and even in 5th spells like Private Sanctum (e.g. via Glyph of Warding) can block teleportation or simply counter/dispel the teleport before it completes...
I'm also a big fan of mind magic - from using subtle illusions that may make a room seem more (or less) dangerous than it is or suggest terrain features where there are none, thus limiting the mobility of the heroes without actually affecting their enemies, over detect thoughts (potentially used by casters hidden behind the walls or in the ceiling/floor that follow the party through the hidden passages criss-crossing the dungeon while passing that intel on) to suggestion or outright modify memory to distract, mislead or outright brainwash victims - there are loads of options ...
Illusions in particular are fun because they can't be detected as illusions unless interacted with - and who'd want to interact with a pillar in the back of the room that provides "cover" to some mobs? or with the brick wall that hides the tiny to small passage for the goblin's wardogs?
There are very very few things in D&D that can't be countered at all and most things, once one looks into their limitations and exact definitions, are actually more limited in their use than one would think - e.g. a single Thunderclap might be enough to break a hypnotic pattern'ed group even if none of them take damage; after all: if shaking them is sufficient then an ear shattering thunderclap should also work :-P
thanks again for the vid and I'm looking for more of em ^.^
Im an spanish teenager and i really like this Channel from so long,keep going like this pls
Gracias! Me alegro q te guste! 😁
One of my players once cast haste on their epic level dragon they encountered, then immediately stopped concentrating on it so the dragon was stunned while they escaped. I thought it was super clever and let it happen. Once.
Haste only works on willing creatures
@@chrisd5169 that was overlooked at the time, and because it was a clever use of the spell, I allowed it to play out in the party's favor. After that though, I made sure everyone was aware of the "willing creature" rider so there wasn't any confusion moving forward
How to stop Arcane Eye: a locked door with no small openings ;) Combine with invisible/ethereal enemies. If you want to give your players /something/, an encounter which requires foresight and strategy to attempt, so that they feel accomplished for using their resources wisely, and so that in-game, that hour that the eye exists slowly shrinks.
Yeah after I had my one player use Arcane eye to scout out like almost the entire dungeon I started using a lot more doors. LOL
#Lemonadeon:
Just have something stare back; I prefer medusae, basilisks or horribly disfigured witches...
Hermetically sealed door with an internal vacuum behind the door.
Door is thin and fragile, AC 10 and 5hp. When the door breaks, each creature within 10ft of the door needs to make a DC15 Strength Save or be sucked into the opening.
Behind the door is a 50ft deep shaft that drops down to a bare bottom.
Joe did a great job! He obviously has a ton of experience as both a PC and DM.
His "Seeming" tactic scared me (as a DM), I've never even thought about using it that way. That's why I try to make dungeons/encounters that compliment my players creativity.
Yes, Joe knows his crap. I learn a lot from him.
It's not the player's responsibility to intentionally pick suboptimal options to inject fun into the game. It's the DM's job to make unique challenges and force the players to be creative or fail. If players can use 1 trick to solve every challenge then the trick isn't broken, the challenges are too predictable and boilerplate.
The video game Kingdom of Amalur has a type of plant that grows underground that blooms instantly in the presence of magic. That would be the sort of thing guards would cultivate.
Really good video. I'm a new Dm and I've been watching you for the past few months and this video really gave a lot of great ideas for problem solving
Awesome! I'm really glad you found this video helpful. Some of those spells we talked about can be real problems to be perfectly honest :-)
Yay. Another me!
31:03 “Who spent all the time to magically enchant every brick?”
Halaster Blackcloak
On our "Rise of Tiamat" campaign, during a cave exploration.
Our rogue, expertise in stealth and equip with boots and cape of the elvenkind, did made a full exploration with the druid casting "Pass without a Trace" and Wild Shaping into a weasel and curling around the rogue's neck... Hiding himself with the staby-stab-girl 's stealth check...
We have done that thrice* before having ennemies with high wisdom and "smell" advantage....
But this new format his nice !
I want already more :3
Wow three times before the DM was like no more! LOL glad you like the new format. We'll see a couple more videos at least with this format.
@@theDMLair
For his defense, we were really... "butthole" with him during this campaign: most of the cases you were explaining into this video, we have done it against him at some point:
Scrying eyes + druid's familiar ? Check.
Disguise self + enhance ability (charisma) + Longstrider on the Rogue Arcane trickster ? Check.
Druid that was circuventing any "beast and plant encounter" since he could speak with them at will ? Check.
Gaseous form / Invisibility / Wind Walk ? Check.
Running away at first notice ? Check?.
Note that he did raise the level of the encounter to "hard and deadly" after the first try of our little strategy since two of the players did said that we should do that all the time since it was a best strategy to win over the GM/DM.... in front of him.
Edit: Sad for him, we did these three dungeon one after the another - session per session - and, since he was busy irl between session, he did need these 3 sessions before figuring out way to stop us without using "DM excuse" and go into argument with the "Lawyer" pc that we had at that time.
Having a "min-maxer" and a "lawyer" players plus 3-4 pcs who "didnt want to fight / prefer sneak their way / be diplomatic - deceptive / run away at the first signal" was not a good combo for him and (his) this campaign where fighting was probably mandatory for saving the world.
Edit 2: grammar and spelling error fix.
For me all the spells are a big problem, but those guys know what they talking about. Awesome video, excellent and useful information.
Thanks Princess K! 😁💓
I can't believe they didn't bring up Nondetection as a foil to any Divination sensor, this would include Arcane Eye and by extension so does the Amulet of Proof against Detection and Location.
When it comes to problem spells, I usually discourage it by subtle means. In my world, most spells have an negative attachment to them. It does NOT effect the spell, or the results of the spell... just a little plant in the player's minds.
For example, with Gaseous Form, when cast, the subject changes, but gives off an odour at the time of casting, and a sound that is really nasty... basically, he turns into a fart... a Hot Wet Fart. When he goes through cracks or keyholes, he makes a flatulent sound (though barely audible to anyone within 5', it usually gets passed off as a natural occurrence... by orcs most notably.). Who wants to be turned into a fart more than once?
Another example is the use of a Fireball spell, I usually leave the scent of burning sulfur that lingers in the area for an hour (per die; a dead give away to anything or anyone looking for the party, but not immediately consequential). The PCs were at ground zero, effectively, and for that spell, the stench clings to them. When the players come out of the dungeon after a successful raid the PCs are effectively "nose-blind".
How does the taxman at the gate to the city always pick them out of a crowd as untaxed adventurers? (Most notably by the crowds trying to pass the gate who give the party a wide birth due to the stench of a mixture of magically induced death and old feet. a.k.a. Adventurer's Stench.) To get rid of "adventurer's stench" a quick use of Prestidigitation (magical Febreeze) is not enough to rid them of it (like skunk spray)... the solution must be completely ALL Non-Magical; a bath in any non-magical water (tomato juice works better), in a non-magical tub, etc., is required. Water from a magical source, ie. a Decanter of Endless Water, or a Create Water spell, does NOT count as non-magical.
Why? In my homebrew world, 'tis the nature of magic. Be creative, DMs, and make use of ALL 5 senses... sorry, 6... psionics give off a really creepy vibe. Only time and the lack of any use of it is one of the only ways to get rid of this... brainwashing with bleach is the other, but the PC is usually made into an Un-PC as a result. ;oP
It's a bit of a balancing act: nothing feels worse than using a limited resource for a spell only to have literally everything perfectly defended against it. Why play a divination wizard if everything is using nondetection magic? You need to mix it up and let these things worth it on some occasions, and block it at other times. After all, any big bad wizard worth their reputation is going to have defenses built up, but those orcs probably don't.
Agreed it's a balancing act for sure.
36:20 blink spiders, hags, evil aligned blink dogs, ghosts. I like it
I usually run a lower-magic version of d&d and part of the reason for that is to make magic more strategic and to have magic take less away from the abilities of non-arcane classes. Some of the changes from vanilla 5e are:
- Many divination spells are divine magic only. Arcane eye being one exception.
- All magic users are strongly attuned to magic. They can detect magic active near them, which makes it risky to cast a spell in a place where there may be other practitioners. They can also easily detect a magic item, but items can only be identified by a skill check.
- Many divination spells do not produce guaranteed results. Even speaking with a divine being is going to produce cryptic responses.
- Magic is divided into different types that oppose each other. It is not uncommon to be in an area where certain spells do not work. Luckily, magic users can easily identify what the prevailing magic type is.
Generally speaking, all this means that magic is less reliable and players are more used to not being able to repeat the same trick everywhere. To compensate, magic users often have more spells at their disposal because spells of the prevailing magic type can be regained on a short rest.
Teleporting or plane shifting can be dealt with by Consecration or even a simple Counterspell. As far as disguise self goes, kind of hard to pass yourself as a monster if you don't speak its languages.
My biggest problem is spells that "shortcut" story. Spells that take away like all mystery and suspense because they can read minds or scy or send fountains of messages around the world...
Yep. That kinda ruins the fun.
@@theDMLair I, have the complete opposite opinion. Using magic to do all that *is* the fun for me. I like thinking of ways my character can use a combination of spells and items to beat the issue in front of me.
I understand that can be hard for a DM to handle at times, I DM myself. But, that just makes me what to get creative. It's a limitation that I have to beat as a DM, and anything you throw at me to counter my spells, will just make me seek to jailbreak my spells even more, to counter the counter.
Whoa! A reference to the Slayers! I was starting to think I was the only one that enjoyed that series. 😊
Nice episode, I liked the yellow mold joke. I've not had any issues quite yet since I'm new but considering I've got people already trying to cast Friends on dungeon Bosses, so I will need to keep some of this in mind. I've used Mordenkainen's Private Sanctum in one of my more serious areas which they shouldn't really be exploring but its technically right there so...still made the floorplan.
My opinion friends would not work on dungeon bosses. The enemy is by default hostile toward you. As long as he knows you're his enemy he's hostile. He doesn't actually have to be attacking you to be hostile. Furthermore that still only gives the person advantage on Charisma checks. There's some things that no matter how high the Charisma check is the boss enemy is still not going to do it. So that spell has very limited Effectiveness in my opinion which it should because it's only a cantrip. It shouldn't be able to do a whole lot as a cantrip.
One of my player groups are really good at limiting themselves in terms of taking/using "shortcut spells". We're playing a survival campaign and the druid deliberately haven't cast Goodberry even a single time, just as an example.
Oh you have an awesome group of players. I feel like my players are kind of the same way because they do one thing that kind of shortcuts the dungeon and then they never do it again. So I think that it's really cool to have players like that you know that no they could kind of ruin the game in a way but intentionally don't because they know that they really just be ruining the game for themselves.
While i haven’t encountered disintegrating down a dungeon to the boss, i thought of a silly or perhaps deadly solution to it.
So as the PC’s get to the final floor and land in front of the boss and combat starts, the other monsters around the holes saw these disintegrates and look down and see the fight happening. If they can fly they can just come down and help. If they cant and are something like devoted followers, they may fling themselves down in an attempt to help, dealing fall damage to the pc’s if they land on the PC’s.
Either way, those who survive join the fight making it that much more deadly of a final boss.
Lol yes. I can see minions using ropes to rapel down and fight. 😈 I plan to do that if my players ever disintegrate down a dungeon. 😁
I’m 58 years old. Been playing since 1981. Don’t feel bad for being old.
One way to solve "arcane eye" problem is to use the triggered timers - like in videogames. At the moment PC sees mindflayers with slaves, let them start to eating brains or convert them to new monsters. Now you know the way, and timer started. Use it wisely to save couple of interesting looking NPCs, (that were not exist minute ago). Or try to use this knowledge to stop necromancer before he raises all zombies.
22:00 My measurement for wizard value."worth his weight in batguano and sulfur"
The humble Mage Hand can spoil OH so many puzzles and traps. But I'd probably say it's simply underestimated.
If you didn't already tell them that the dungeon is vertical like an upside down skyscraper, you can have it terraced into the ground, so at least they have to do some kind of lateral movement before they can tunnel down again by blowing the floor out
I'm not sure teleport is such a big problem to deal with. There comes a point where you have to say "you can't do that" which isn't a result of taking away a player's agency. Look up the description for teleport:
"Description is a place whose location and appearance you know through someone else's description, perhaps from a map."
If a player says they want to teleport to the final dungeon, ask them to read out the spell description, then say "okay, describe the location you're teleporting to". They'll either say "I don't know" or just give you a random/vague description.
You guys need to go do some homework!!!! Detect Magic and Disguise Self are 1st level spells. And those weren't the only ones you messed up :)
Maybe this is more combat in general but I do hate my players whipping out Counterspell. Because its always on that spell that might fry them. :(
Homework? Why would we do that? If we just make tons of mistakes and people correct Us in the comments it boosts our RUclips engagement metrics. 😁
What about throwing down a leomond's tiny hut, and taking a long rest in the middle of the dungon?
Or if they take a sledgehammer to a load bearing wall, and litterarly "break the dungon?"
@@agsilverradio2225 If they use Leomund's tiny hut in the middle of the dungeon too often, they could find a bunch of enemies waiting outside for the spell to end. Once in awhile is fine, and a DM that knows their players like to use this tactic can make bigger and tougher dungeons to accommodate it.
@@agsilverradio2225 you cant sledgehammer though a wall that essentially has nothing but a void on the other side.
molecular agitation in 2e was my biggest pain its was restricted by weight but had a fairly large allowence. it started off with "can i use this on his head" after a quick no because it couldnt be used on anything living it became helmets, weapons, gloves, belt buckles, etc. after a few sessions of this fortunately the players themselves got bored with it and moved on because short of straight banning it i was finding it hard to deal with.
*laughs* Just viewing this NOW, Dec. of 2020. I once had a player who used not only some spells or spell combos in highly creative and aggravating ways to get around my encounters, but also mundane items like pepper, salt, etc. One of my favorite moves as a DM with his party (super smart guy who got them party through many a tight spot with his ingenious moves and uses of spells and such). On the way to the dragon's lair underground, there was a strange sheen to the walls for about 200 feet. They investigated it some, then moved through it. They didn't have the proper spell (already used by trick-sy character previously), and thus didn't know that enough of their magic items that didn't make their saves were 'de-magic-ed' for the next 8 hours. A little later on (like 2 hours), they didn't figure out what the odd, soft hum was around them. They were used to getting by my monsters, so shrugged it off again. They sent my NPC in first, but he was immune to the trap effect... And so they proceeded to step into the 50 foot long spot on the floor, and those that didn't make their saves vs. lightning got static shocked (I think it was 4d8.). They had enough HP left after some healing to continue on. I was really shocked (a-ha-ha) that they didn't just stop and camp out at this point. So...about 4 hours later, they find the blue dragon asleep atop a huge pillar in the center of the huge cavern. They attack it, manage to kill it (taking a blort-load of damage in the process)...and the dragon's carcass just disappears. Greater illusion. Next comes the sound of at least 2 dragons scraping and clawing their way towards the main cavern from two side ones... I've never seen a party run away nearly screaming before!
In Divinity Original Sin 2, my favorite spell is "Chicken Form", because it is so hilarious.
Hence in D&D, my favorite spell is now "Polymorph Other". :-D
That's awesome I want to polymorph my players in the chickens and then cook them for like over a barbecue and stuff. Lol
@@theDMLair For some reason, I am now hungry for BBQ chicken... :-D
I agree completely, having someone skip to the final boss is cool once. I usually play that if the players do it too often. The bosses tend to know tricks to mess with the players perception. That happens a few times, and the players go to, well, we don't look because we know, or suspect that it's not true. the big bad's are smart (at least sometimes), and will counter your party (sometimes). As the DM you just have to make sure sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. That way It gives the party some I am cool, but not overly cool all the time
Yes totally. One time it's cool and fun. When it becomes a pattern it just becomes lame in my opinion and no fun to play the game anymore almost. LOL
Where do you get that mug from? Looks absolutely amazing
I got it from a store called I forget exactly but it's like Enchanted or enchantment something or other and it's in Mackinaw City Michigan. I've no idea if you can get it online or not but you can probably search that store out contact them and find out how to get it.
@@theDMLair Ok thanks will have a look for it
@@reubenconner1679
Enchanted Knights.
I would counter the arcane eye with hypnosis or mind control or a spell like that if the creature or lich or whatever is there , our dm makes the invisibility thing look more like something along the predater invisibility,
any spell or group of spells that cause a DM grief. the easy fix is the spell component. this may take some effort, but have every spell require a material component. abusive spells may require a rare/exotic material. now the caster may know a spell, but without the material component, cannot cast it. I also do not allow any 'automatic' spells. even magic missile requires a ranged to hit roll by the caster. also, spell targets get a save against the caster. this makes the game more interesting for everyone.
I like putting suits of armor that are rusted or old vases or mirrors that have been enchanted with one counterspell that break after use
what I'll do is use say a familiar to scout the next room, but lets say I'm running out of 1st level spell slots and have some extra second level spells slots to s[are using one to cast invisibility on the rogue so he/she can sneak in and scout out the room easily better yet playing a sorcerer why not have a 24 hour long invisibility spell on you and the rogue their is no particular reason not to do so
If we are trying to talk our way into a place, let the bard strike up a conversation with the mannor owner durring a party, while the rogue, druid, and fammiliars snoop around to find evidence of the party's supitions, while the party refuses to wait for the paladin to "do it by the book," and get a search warrent.
Contact other plane seems like it shouldnt give mundane information like which rooms in this random kobold camp have traps because most gods dont care about the layout of every low level monsters home
have contact other plane work like a text message instead of a phone call and if you bug them too much you get "new phone: who dis" as a response
I was considering using Anti-magic to deal with Arcane Eye but won't feel right now that I know it's a 8th level spell, so think instead maybe having random locations have Glyph of Wardening set to trigger a Dispell Magic if the creature doesn't wear a symbol.
I love Disintegrate since it's one of the few times I been impressed with Lori due to taking a very dangerous enemy (for me) out of the battle asap.
I want the Paladin hate video.
Me too me too. The only problem is that my rant videos tend to perform very poorly and leave a lot of people not liking me or the video. LOL
Hermetically sealed doors might be found on a mind flayer nautiloid. What with navigating the astral plane and all.
Closing in on 100k love the videos man keep it up :)
I had a dungeon with a wild magic antimagic field that traveled the dungeon, but randomly of which way it went.
I totally agree. Yesterday was the first day of a very exciting campaign...or so I thought. What had really happened was us nearly having a fight with three dire wolves (the party started at level 5). I already was going to use a spell slot to cast Invisibility and to activate my Psychic Blades (I am a College of Whispers bard) when the Druid just...hijacks the whole encounter with his animal friendship spell. Like, the DM was building up this giant fight and the Druid flatout just went, 'Nope'. I admit, it really has turned me off from wanting to play again. When you try to skip one or two encounters, that's fine if they are minor ones but a potential boss fight? Why on Earth would you ruin the experience for your fellow players just because you don't feel like fighting in a campaign that is centered around fighting?
Nebby Get in the bag Was there a session zero and was the focus of the campaign discussed there in? Because if not, that sounds like a druid doing what a druid should. Dire Wolves are still beasts, if your druid can talk to them and convince them not to fight, then why wouldn’t he? Why would he charge in and take a coin flip on living or dying if it is entirely avoidable?
@@docartemis2878 Well said. A major factor in the game is resource management. Winning a fight using as few resources as possible is smart play and makes sense in world where characters can die or even feel pain.
@Nebby Why should another player playing well or being lucky somehow ruin your fun? If the rogue gets a lucky crit with a sneak attack in the first round, is that game ruined? If the wizard casts a Hypnotic Pattern and the whole enemy force goes stupid and you get to pick them off one at a time? If the bard talks their way past some guards?
There are always more monsters to fight. Winning a few fights decisively doesn't ruin the game. Your attitude of not letting other players have their moments to shine DOES ruin games.
Yeah that just seems like it was one encounter that was overcome with that spell. And like the other commenters said that feels like a druid being a druid. That's what Druids do. But he's not doing that to every single encounter in the entire dungeon or the entire campaign. He can't not everything is going to be susceptible to animal friendship and some things are going to make their saves. So I think that is more like a one-time occurrence. I wouldn't let that spoil your spirit for the game or the campaign in general. It was probably just a bad night for you know your fun. Other nights will be better.
Potential fix for the low DC on the insanity check just popped into my head. What do yall think about the idea of making the roll to determine insanity a straight d20 roll where perhaps on a 1-3 or 1-4 on the die the player goes insane. IMO if you are fucking with such cosmic levels of power, you shouldn't always be able to bypass it because of high stats. Such communications carry an inherent risk, regardless of the players power, so long as they are mortal.
Again, curious to hear others opinions, spur of the moment idea and I have no idea how balanced or fair it is in practice. Cheers!
1st comment! Hey Luke! Is this your new format? I'm about 4 minutes in and I am already finding it useful :)
Edit: 5 minutes in and I have my answer lol
Hey Cameron! Bringing on DM guests is something I'm trying. This would be the format when I do a two person discussion.
Glad you got the answer so quickly! (This was a long video. lol)
@@theDMLair I love the long form video! The discussion feels natural and the ideas you both come up with together are great! :) BTW I demand a video about paladins! Lol
I totally disagree bc "over using " a spell is no diff than a fighter "I swing my sword for the 30th time today"
In a campaign that I was playing in, two castings of contact other plane, 2 insane characters with 25 Int. It is an Int check not an Int save so no Paladin aura, no Proficiency Bonus.
It's actually a Saving throw, not a check, at least according to the description on roll20.
You were a DM in HS....
I was a DM before you were born
How do you know when I was born?!? 😯
I love the advice where the boss leaves with the loot.
I misread the timestamp on this video and eventually it felt like it was running long so I checked and it was way longer than I thought it was lol. still time well spent though. have a good day all. :)
So yes... Would love to have a video about Paladins & exploiting character creation.
I'm an inexperienced DM, but I'm absolutely loving being a DM. I feel like I'm doing quite well. BUT... someone who has been a DM for a long time is a player of mine. I was a bit intimidated, but it seems to be going well. He builds a Paladin... level 2 I believe he had a 19 AC! Like... is that possible? Things I should do about it? I played around it well... basically having monsters learn and focus against other members to pull his attention... a well placed flank ended up ruining the party from the rear while he was pushing forward...
But Is this reasonable? Possible for a level 2 to basically be untouchable? I don't want my monsters to never be able to kill him... but I don't want the monsters to easily kill everyone else just so it can actually hit him... So far... I'm looking at other stats (like wis, dex, etc) to have DCs that might affect him...
19 Ac is not only possible, but fairly easy to get for a martial class. He has his dex mod, his armor, and likely a shield.
As for what to do about it, I personally don’t see the problem. The player made a pretty standard “tank” character. Let him be the bulwark for the party, wading in and protecting his weaker allies. That’s likely why he made that character.
If he starts running ahead and leaving his team behind and generally trying to do it solo, in that scenario, action economy gets the better of him. If you’re tuning your encounters for the whole party, then whatever difficulty they are meant to be will be much harder for any single character. He won’t be able to get through all the monsters by himself before attacks start getting through his ac and the enemies kill him with bug bites.
Now, a few things you can do to threaten your local wall of metal and muscle, enemies that have other effects when they do hit. A ghoul’s claws might not do much damage, but that paralysis is nasty, and makes other enemies more likely to hit. Area of effect attacks are good too, such as breath weapons and spells, even if he makes the save, he generally takes half damage.
However, and I should have said this first, before you start targeting him with in game methods, if he is being a problem, take him aside and talk to him, explain the problem you’re having. If he is a good player, he’ll understand and work with you to resolve it. If he keeps making a problem of himself and refuses to do anything to curb it, might be time he finds a new group.
Enemies with a +4 modifier have a 25% chance to hit this paladin. Without flanking or whatever tactical house rules you have. Seems right for a tank. Hardly "untouchable".
Play you enemies to the extent of their intelligence. Can't hit the fully armored knight? Go for the squishies instead. Just like you did.
In the future, you could limit what armor the players have access to. Make them buy that half or full plate. And if they have the money to do so by level 2, then you're responsible.
Yes having a 19 Armor class is totally doable at level two. I know it's frustrating. I'm a dungeon master so believe me I feel your pain. But that's his characters thing and that's what he built for so we just got to let him have his fun. Remember when your building encounter and they're about 5 monsters only maybe two of them will go after the Paladin the others will choose other characters to go after. Play Paladin will take a couple and then the others will go after other characters who have to figure out what they're going to do. So it's not like everything comes to a grinding halt you know I mean.
Just wait till he's level 8 with the polearm master and sentinel feats. Lol.
Yeah, basically let the meat shield be the meat shield. He's working as intended. Here's how to handle him:
Archers. Ranged attackers are the bane of any party. They don't even have to be very beefy archers. A properly designed encounter with cover and some type of obstacle to prevent the players from getting to them, can *wreck* a party of adventurers. Especially at low levels.
Throw some shortbow wielding kobolds at them, from the other side of a narrow rope bridge and behind a bunch of rocks and other debris, giving them full cover in between shots, (if you're not moving around, the movement cost of getting up is unimportant, and dropping prone is free) and your players will be talking about the "bridge of death" for years.
The issue is that the dnd world isn't built with any thought that these spells exist.
A game setting that is invalidated by its own game systems is simply BADLY designed.
Either the DMG should specify the known, brutally obvious counters to such tactics or the spells should simply not exist.
Your own stated opinion on bad GM advice on a group of level 1 flying aracora party was TO NOT ALLOW THE PARTY, this is the same thing.
A basic assumption of a DnD game is you fight the monsters, does this not mean the DM should invalidate all Social and Stealth-based attempts at bypassing encounters?
I would be wary of trying to stop players from reconnoitering in game.
First this is is largely a communication issue. If the divination wizard is ruining the rogue's fun they should work that out between them. If you try, then you are favoring one player over another. There is no winning that battle. Offer to help resolve things, but ultimately they need to talk it out.
Second, simply put, you will fail. Maybe you can stop one of these methods, but the game is designed for players to gather information. If doors stop an arcane eye, they will just send in a familiar. If you manage to kill the invisible flying familiar, that can open doors, see in magical darkness, and cast any of my touch range spells, the players will just capture a guard. Or kill someone and use speak with dead. Or use detect thoughts. Use stone shape/ mould earth, to tunnel where er they want. Or just cast clairvoyance over and over untill the whole dungeon is mapped.
Or you cou just stop banging your head against that wall and talk to the players. If they are resorting to such tactics despite not enjoying it there is probably a reason. If only one player is enjoying it, then you know what to do with a problem player.
2 weeks late, but on your Arcane Eye / Beholder situation, your Beholders Anti Magic Eye would have simply disabled it right?? :)
So another fix for contact other plane, make the insanity permanent if they fail
Maybe the next floor is not directly below the one you are on.
I find Forbiddance to be really bad. I haven’t had it used against me personally, but a friend had a player who killed his entire dungeon of demons with a single spell.
Another counter for Misty Step: Water.
Arcane eye is a problem?
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Not guaranteed to spot intruders, use preferably only with proficiency in Perception and a decent WIS score.
Have the main boss support the entire dungeon. When the main boss dies the entire dungeon starts crumbling. Also, no leaving the dungeon until you beat the boss or the boss leaves.
Would you do that for every single dungeon in the campaign?
If they can only use it once I do this for them to save it until after the boss.
No skipping.
That's some serious railroad tracks you're laying down.
Wait...is Jon there every time you shoot?
No just the ones with Joe. 😁
I AM EVERYWHERE
Sounds to me like DnD stands for Dice and Death 6:17
What was the TV show he referenced about disintegrating to the 20th floor @ around 29mins? I couldn't understand him.
Slayers.
Mmmmmmm bacon...magic mouth when arcane eye is detected...statue screams I smell bacon....bbg hears it casts a spell and finds you...oh and roll dice every time they use the spell that's bugging you...and don't tell them what's it for...oh you tripped this this time sorry...makes them think twice.
As a DM, these are the important videos
As a player, they are too
@@kendrickrochelanzot2053 are you gearing up to make your DMs life difficult or learning what makes DMing challenging and making sure you're considerate about it?
@@F2t0ny it's a even thing. The DM was a player and one shoted a dungeon I prepared in a module I wrote. It's only one XD
If you want to seal a dungeon, use water. The areas can be difficult terrain in deeper areas, provide an environmental setting that impacts gameplay in simple ways. A tunnel dips down and back up, the players have to submerge to progress.
Water seals things naturally and will be questioned less than engineered seals.
Winds also disperse and stop gasses
Yeah! And I feel waterlogged dungeons are probably a NORMAL thing.
Fly. What's the turning arc and area effect on the horizontal plane (map) for an adult red dragon and his breath weapon in a 45 degree banked turn and a 30 degree dive, flying 90 feet per turn. Now answer the same question for a pixie.
Feels like volume is kinda low on this video
I had a run in with dungeon skipping, used scry + dimension door to just hop on down to the boss and strike up a deal, I was bummed out cause I really worked my ass off on this dungeon it was 3 floors of mind numbing creation, they got through part 1 nervous about the maze they were teleported into on floor 2, as they start in on it the wizard is like ... fuck this, hold on... scry, oh look, door, gg -_-
Couldn't account for that and let it happen, so now im stuck where to lead them since the power at their disposal is pretty strong, like what's gonna thwart this or slow them down? They did it in another dungeon too, 3 separate sections on the same floor to complete, by the time they were done they asked their NPC friend for help (they'd befriended a dragon who'd found the secret dragon-only way in since he was a copper and this was an old copper lair, he figured it out), of course the copper was enjoying seeing how the traps were working but decided to throw a bone and mulligan them to safety. I am in agreeance that it's disheartening to go through all the trouble and work to make some epic amazing encounter dungeon to "WOW" the players and characters both, but then *THAT* happens and it's like... pfffffffffffffffffft why did i bother
well, if they got Scry + Teleport then the other side can definitely have Glyph of Wardings set up to automagically counter or dispel them and high level VIP (villain, hero or otherwise) that can probably wants to - and should - have an Amulet of Proof against Detection and Location. That alone makes them essentially invis to divination spells.
the glyph of warding is my go-to spell for making it suicidal to just rush in or teleport into the unknown
there are soooooo many awesome options for it ... including stuff like planeshifting incoming hostiles into the nine hells (or just the plane of fire), teleporting them to a prison cell, time-stopping on their arrival, hold person them, or just counterspell/dispel any non-authorized magic in the area ...
and that is before you go and do stuff like make ample use of illusions to make rooms seem more (or less) dangerous than they are, use Hallucinatory Terrain - either around or on the dungeon - to mess with both their expectations and orientation, add in mind magic (read their thoughts, Suggest that they leave or take the wrong path, Modify Memory to make them forgot they key info, etc).
in my opinion none of the spells in D&D are truly an issue (except maybe the 'get out of jail free' cards like Resurrection, True Resurrection, Wish or Clone) - one just has to be certain to understand what the limitations of the potentially problematic spells are (aka how one can nerf them just based on those) and what the potential counters are, that are already in the game ...
Glyph of Warding is the "one size fits all" solution to a lot of that
but Major Image, Nondetection, Nystul's Magic Aura (to hide magic - e.g. traps, illusions, animated objects or even undead - or the aforementioned glyphs of warding) or, if you already got up to Scrying, things like Guards and Wards are very effective means of making it significantly harder to bypass the BBEG's defenses - or punish those that rush into the unknown...
Message. It ruins the conversation aspect of my campaign, which is HEAVY in telling the players where to go, miscommunication between NPCs and players, and a slew of problems that are annoying to deal with.
Do you have to deal with them? Could you make your players deal with the miscommunication issues that result from overuse of that spell?
@@theDMLair I have been trying to prevent the player from overuse of the spell, but he just won't listen to me and uses it to carry out basic conversation with others (literally just talking to others in an A-B conversation)
I could definitely take your advice and try to help curb the player back on track. Although he sticks to a common response to me questioning his behaviors in-game as "I'm Chaotic-Evil, and I will do whatever I want."; which is making me go out of my way to work with him individually to use a tool to help him get back on track so I can continue the game.
well, message has a fairly strict range limit and iirc it "whispers" the message - hard to hear a whisper over loud ambient sound, say a battle ...
ooohh, spicy episode my dude, this is actually my biggest problem with ANY game.
Which spell gives you the most issues?
@@theDMLair are of damage, but i flipped the switch by putting little traps that activate due to aoe.
@@mirjanastevanovic-radojevi6432
Enemies are aware of AOE spells, too, and they aren't stupid. They'll spread out so a fireball can't wipe them, avoid lining up with the wizard so they don't get smoked by a lightning bolt, etc.
And the enemies can do research, too. Smart foes who are aware of the party will be prepared for their usual tactics. And if your BBEG doesn't know that the party is out there wrecking his plans, he's not much of a BBEG. Certainly by the time the party gets to him, he's going to be fully aware that he's got powerful enemies and prepared accordingly.
@@TheodoreMinick i like making long winding tunnel dungeons, but ive learned to NANI them by suddenly turning theyre advantage against them by putting some magic users, also thanks for the tips. Also the enemy at this time was basically a wizard that thought he was hot sh** but was only realy a celeb that didnt know how to use magic except for special effects.
I as a DM, I would like that someone break my dungeon, because thats is a way of problem solution
Every dungeon would be not fun but If he do one or 2 times I think is ok.
And as a DM you can put doors or magic shield against that kind of spell, the world is magic so the rich and the old ones would use to protect themselfs
I have been a DM since I was 10
Disguise self as monster, get cleaning duty.
Just have an antimagic ward on the dungeon
I feel like short circuits arnt a problem, because it makes the players feel more intelligent, and you can always just send in some shapeshifters or invisible monsters to play with your players.
They arent a problem Until the DM stops creating dungeons because everything just gets bypassed anyway. Once or twice, it's fun. At some point, why even play the game?
Arcane eye has a range of 30 feet. Is the wizard walking the dungeon while using it?
30' to cast, but: "There is no limit to how far away from you the eye can move, but it can’t enter another plane of existence."
Summon 8 pixie have them use polymorph party becomes op dinosaurs your welcome
I treat Contact Other Plane as a very GIGO scenario. Why does this deity care who the final boss is? That doesn't affect them. And because (I think) you only get one question, if you don't use it juuuust right, you're not going to get any information out of it. So basically, if you know how to get the info you need, you deserve to have it, because you've figured out how it works.
I have a player who keeps useing mold earth and don’t know how to counter it
What is he using mold Earth to do?
Remember that mold earth (and its big brother, move earth) only works with *earth*. Dirt and loose soil. Mold earth can make the rock difficult terrain, or carve a message into rock, but if you want to put a new doorway into a dungeon wall, you're going to need stone shape, and remember that's a 5' cube per casting. No drilling a new passageway straight to the boss.
If I comment, do you get more money?
Sort of , the more engagement he gets ( likes dislikes and comments ,also the length you watched .All these factors then gets youtube to promote the channel more and likely to get better adverts placed on channel .
Let's say yes. 😎
In a way
arcane eyes fairly low level? what campaigns have you been in? I have yet to get a forth level spell on any character of any class. I feel like you may be going a bit overboard, just make most openings less than an inch and it can't get in there. As for the why make the dungeon, why should the players make a character and backstory if your gonna kill them off in the first 3 dungeons? I think it is also noteworthy that some creatures are just poor matches for certain character builds. Honestly, I feel like you guys are disregarding the effort people put into their characters, then again, maybe you guys give people enough coin to actually get a revival every few dungeons. Most dms i have had try to charge huge sums and give out very little. As a result, when you die you tend to have no choice but to make a new char.
Is this video a complaint about metagame players? I can agree that knowing in advance everything that's ahead can ruin the dynamic of "exploration" (archaeologist backround is currently my favorite) but as DM if you know thats how your party plays you could design a really extreme dungeon that relys on that kind of foreknowledge to successfully complete. I can only see this playstyle as a problem if you're allowing this build-type into the wrong kind of session. (I'll probably comment on my own lost as you make points in the video, I had this comment before you talked about the eye spell)
(Mimics pretending to be doors)
(Not contacting the same entity evey time) * also(entity knows nothing about your question *not all planar entities are omniscient)
What if 1 player enjoys that play style but the other 4 don't? The issue I see is that most groups have players with a variety of interests, that is why they play. Many would get bored with the game fast if every adventure consisted of the same player using the same tactics to shortcut the game. At that point, why even play?
(Glad you agreed with me about design)
@@theDMLair as DM, i feel majority rule should be in effect, "greater good" and whatnot, so I'd say design is key, 1 of 4 players likes the knowing up front? Design a dungeon to be obvious but play on the other players strengths to foster co-op play with the 'odd man out'
Also, please turn off auto-focus.
Just make arcane eye a daily?
Which edition are you talking about?
@@aethon0563 I play 4th so my comment might not make sense for 5th... I'm not familiar enough with it.
I want patron for paladins.
*Spells breaking all dungeons is a problem for crappy DM's .*
*Spells breaking a few dungeons is more realistic and just fine .*
*All Spells , Classes , races , items , abilities have limitations & counters .*
So straight up, I know it's the "cool thing" to hate on 4th edition, but it's actually pretty damn good. It's really easy to learn for new players, there is a TON of content (22 books, many adventure modules/campaigns, dragon magazine, etc.), introduced great concepts like minions and skill challenges, Is really easy to house rule and make custom monsters for, and doesn't suffer from a lot of the issues with stupidly OP spells or mundane character management that other editions have. Our group prefers to run a mashup of several editions but in the core rules of 4th edition. I have had a few people, who started with 5th edition, approach me after their first session and tell me how much they enjoyed playing 4th edition. I think 4e gets too much flak, it's not perfect, but it's definitely not bad.
So Nerdarchy does a similar thing as this, but they are a bit better prepared. I would also suggest instead of an hour long video, you break them up into smaller topics.
Yes, an hour is too long.
You learn a lot of things the first time you do a thing. 😁
I liked this long format quite a bit, but it'd probably fit better as a podcast.
IMO, this video was too long. The "interview" format just dragged on. Should have listed the spells and gave a short reason why they break the dungeon.
Thanks for the feedback. I agree one hour was way too long. In the future we're going to aim for these interview format to be much shorter like maybe 40 minutes maximum.
Or just have this as an uncut interview type style & release a different edited down "X spells that break dungeons & how to defeat them" into a 10-20min video so people can choose how they want to consume it. This style of video I put on in the background while I'm doing other things. A short & sweet video I usually actively watch it.
Wait i'm early that not right i well leave and come back in 3 hours
As long as you come back. LOL
I did. Thanks man
@@theDMLair good video
Yeah, these gripes seem arbitrary.
You're telling your players how to have fun. You demonstrate multiple times that you don't the specifics of the "broken" spells or the spells that counter them. Seems like your players know their limits better that you do.
"No, my players must suffer through every trap and encounter I have planned! It's part of the narrative and it's fun!"
Do you stop druids from wild shaping into small creatures to scout? Do you stop rogues from using thieves' tools? No Stone Shape for clerics?
What if your PCs are playing smart characters who aren't suicidal and masochistic? What if their "fun" is cleverly defeating challenges instead of just brute-forcing their way through everything?
If you want your players to explore the dungeon, give them reasons to do so. Hidden treasure or key items. Put those things under guard. PCs can't skip rooms if they need something in a locked chest or desk.
If your players want to scry and fry, let them attempt it. Scry has a saving throw and can be foiled. Teleportation isn't perfect. There can be mishaps. Facing off against the boss of the dungeon and all its minions at once while down a 5th level spell (Scry) and a 7th? (Teleport) seems highly difficult. If it's not, then how are you planning your dungeons? Killing the lich doesn't matter if you don't find its phylactery.
Is there no urgency in your game allowing PCs to spend infinite time scouting? Are there no consequences? What happens to the scores of enemies left in the dungeon who now have no leader? What keeps them from causing trouble in the nearest town?
Obviously, you don't spell it Zimmoroth. You spell it Ximmoroth.