a shame you had to make this point. yes, if this were an indie game with only $200,000 behind it, sure, I'll click and zoom and struggle. ...but $720,000,000+ and 12+ years? dude! this has potential to hit 1 BILLION in funding. paper-doll or not, 'default view' should have been the FIRST thing developed for this feature. there actually do exist indie games that have been produced for less than $1,000,000 that have more intuitive, user-friendly UIs.
Ironically many of the worst elements of star citizen like the cumbersome hard to use 3D camera, the awful ironman UI, the ship UI's that blind you in the dark while being illegible in the light are all things that they spent VAST time and resources to make worse than if they had just 'taken the easy way out' with a 2D paper doll or flat rendered UI. Being ambitious is only a good thing if you have the skills to make something good, otherwise it's just a huge waste of resources like the trainwreck alpha we have after 12 years and 0.8 Billion spent.
You are very right. Regular players always forget the new player experience and this game needs fresh blood to succed. Most games have decent tutorials, even in game immersive "adventures" made to teach the game or at least the basics that can be passed. Modern players don't read, it's a fact. So yes, the first experience didtates to rely on common things found in other games, aka some form of clear and easy to use UI, like an always vivible paperdoll.
Maybe the new player experience should be a short presentation talking about how humanity went to the stars thanks to the ability of humanity to use the written word to store information and communicate, thus allowing the advancement of civilization. It will then show you documentation and explain that only humans are capable of reading it and those that who do not read the signs and documentation are subhuman and do not deserve to live among the stars. =) I'm being snarky about it but it would honestly make me happy because I get tired of having to explain things over and over to illiterate people. "Where is the shop" -- "UNDER THE BIG FUCKING SIGN THAT SAYS SHOP RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOU" etc. For some reason people seem to be less attentive to the written word lately.
It still blows my mind how people can defend the development pace of this game. There's almost nothing in terms of basics features that is actually nailed down after 12+ years and were still missing a lot of them. There might no be loading screens but with the amount of useless time sinks and over complicated mechanics like the inventory system, they might as well be loading screens... This is potentially a dream game for me but the management of the project is horrendous.
I had no idea how many people love their ridiculous time wasting machines. The latest patch note thread is full of people asking the previous menu to be brought back.
Wait for the toilet gameplay. What if I take a (rather than give one) poop and there is a stuck poop bug or an engineering gameloop to unplug clogged piping. Will constipation or holding a poop during a fight cause me to die? The funny part is I just dont know in this game.
It's not the drawer is the better UI. The mechanics are getting there with the removal of the drawer but the UI needs work. I think the previous UI but remove the drawer would be a better place to start and then just give people the ability to change item icon size. Honestly for the hate CIG is given by influencers, it's pretty dope they listened to feedbackid PTU and adjusted it. Just 18 months ago this would have been something we would have had to suffer with till the next major patch
@@quarkedupphoton236 they've actually talked about this being more like RDR2 and having it be more of a buff/debuff kind of thing. I actually find it hilarious that someone who hasn't pooped might have their sprinting debuffed. Maybe too much movement will cAuae you to shit your pants and decrease NPCs willingness to engage
But... Item Bank is just a normal KIOSK. All the 'virtual items' should be on the screen like it's a normal kiosk screen. The hole in the Item Bank should be where the HAND-CLICKED PHYSICAL OBJECT is generated... but then there's no UEE Physicalizer Tech in this game. So, "What the hell-kinda-game are CIG making?"
the item boxes everywhere look really stupid and now we still watch other players go around naked and attaching items out of nowhere. what improvement does it give to the game limiting it that to whats basically a public and open changing room? doesn't putting them down nearly everywhere defeat the purpose of limiting access which they want to enforce for whatever reason? can't be any performance reasons because clearly it doesn't make a change. just like mastermodes. this is mastermodes for items.
@the_babbleboom item banks do not increase immersion, but now we have to go to certain, artificial spots, to use our local inventory. Even Pyro will have item banks. I wish I would knew what Chris plan is. -Does Chris want to make a realistic game? Well nothing in Star Citizen is realistic, we don't even have some very basic physics, nothing has mass, no inertia, driving physics worse than in the very first Mario Kart arcade game, dying of thirst in 3 hours is not realistic, so I would say: "no". -Does Chris want to make a fun, engaging and interesting game? Well nothing in Star Citizen in year 12 is fun, engaging and interesting, we have the same boring missions, CIG cannot even give us different bunker or Distribution Center layouts (is RASTAR really so terrible?), so I would say: "no". It seems like Chris himself doesn't know what kind of game he wants to make, heck, if he even wants to make a game or does Chris want to make some kind of boring and tedious interactive movie? The best waiting simulator? The best screenshot generator ever?
This is only one of many details that need improvement. It's difficult to enumerate them all because they're so small, but there's so many of them. One of my pet peeves is all of the transit systems are so janky. Even when the server is running well the transit systems are not smooth. Seeing trains blink off the rails and clip through geometry makes the whole simulation seem very cheap and low quality.
Agreed, this is among the most basic design considerations that should happen way before it makes it to end users. Yes this is alpha, but it never should have made it to PTU before being addressed.
As if CIG ever had any QA testing. They do some barebones test to see that it launches at all and then ship this straight out to Evocati and work from there.
I am confused as to why we cannot just get global inventory and only accessible via these item banks. That limits your ability to access your gear everywhere but does not make it so we will be jumping across multiple star systems to go back and get a helmet we wanted. The reason for the local inventories is to make it more immersive but by limiting the access points it does the same thing but just a little less tedious.
I had a problem with the Item Banks in the New Babbage habs. Inside the Hab itself, there is a big closet to either side of the Item Bank device. No matter what I did, I could not select the Item Bank *at all* to access inventory. It kept selecting one of the closets to either side and would open/close them instead. I eventually went outside to get dressed in the lobby. Anybody else run into that?
It's even worse than that, a few days later they removed it saying "it was not providing the results we wanted" What results exactly were they expecting? I mean, is that their excuse? It was so predictable that it was going to be shit, it shows that they are terrible game designers/developers.
and if your view is blocked from all sides because of other players? maybe it's blocked from one side but it's exactly the side you want to view? Every other game has just a character view you can spin, but it's not obstructed by the world, it's just a character menu, that's it. I don't get all the players trying all the time to justify bad game decisions just because they are fanboys, or I don't know what...
People miss the point, is not about being hard or not, its about a simple feature that any game has figured out by now, SC just cant get it right 12 years later..
Everything stinks of design made to handle tens of players. If they get server meshing working, populations will go up. NOTHING is designed to deal with a population using the location.
The primary goals of this were to reduce local server load by tracking inventory elsewhere to limit the number of loaded items and “improve immersion” by “physicalizing” inventory. These are the same stated goals for the cargo hanger. Fine, it’s their game, if that’s part of the vision, do it. My question remains: why didn’t they just… do a smaller cargo elevator then? The elevator uses the animation to hide the load-in process, but your ship configuration, your list of things you want, etc, all of that is done once with the elevator UI. So why don’t we just… enter a changing room/closet/locker room, get shown the paper doll and our inventory list, gear up, and hide the load in behind the animation of entering/leaving the room? This hides it from other players, retains all the back end benefits, and would be maximally easy for the player: go to place, gear up, leave. It’s baffling that they already did this for ships but decided an entirely different, jankier answer was needed for players.
@piedpiper1172 the drawer didn't work. We had the same massive lags and desync issue we had before 3.24. We have MMOs where player have literally thousands of items and their servers are fine.
@@Camural Oh, I agree. My point was even if you take CIG at their word and just accept their goals, this version is awful and makes neither gameplay nor design sense.
The problem isn't whether there was a drawer or not, the problem is that all the UI elements in this game are cumbersome and poorly implemented. The atrocious 3rd person view for fiddling with guns rather than the uniformly superior paper doll that just freaking works, the dreadful blurfest of an ironman ui and the illegible gui elements in all lighting conditions are an embarassment. The person who approved these UIs is irredeemably stupid and should be removed from the creative flow.
@RN1441 a simple 2D paperdoll, like most games use, would have been perfect. A player can see at first glance what items are equipped and what items are missing. However, this is not good enough for Chris. Chris wants eye candy, fluff, time sinks and cool cinematic. Usability, ease of use, making a fun and interesting game, never play any role for Chris.
@@Camural Conceptually I'm fine with a 3D interface if it worked better than the paperdoll. The theme of CIG is that they spend vast effort and backer funds to develop worse solutions to long solved problems. It's basically their mantra 'we do it worse with more resources, and refuse to learn from what others have done right.'
@@Camural Everyone loves eye candy, but it has to work and not get in the way of fun. Area18, Orison, and New Babbage are all fluff and eye candy that players love, and they don't get in the way fun.
@@RN1441 They do it differently just for the sake of doing it differently, cause they can't (or maybe don't want to) rely on tried and true game solutions so they can later pat themselves on the shoulder and be like "look what amazing never-been-done-before solution we made here".
Jeez. They should have made access limited to hangars, hab rooms, or a safety deposit box type bank setup. Equipment kiosks for an item bank is just terrible.
valve playtests their games every single week to make sure they stay on track when it comes to fun. they said they do that because they dont want to develop an entire system, gameplay loop, or worse without testing to see if players actually enjoy it. notice the difference. how did no one play test the new menu and decide it was good for gameplay flow. now we have fallen back to the old menu as a bandaid for their incompetence. It hurts so much its actually funny.
People that defend this game have to understand that someone actually implemented this functionality to be this way. Even if they made it once and then copied it everywhere that you see a kiosk, making the default camera rotation on the opposite side of the kiosk makes zero sense. Someone didn't think this through and it's the same for soooo much of the functionality/mechanics of this game. Poor decisions are made and implemented without much thought. This is why this game is on year 11 going on 12. They implement things without any forward thinking and then have to fix it later on. That often requires re-writes. When you implement something as a temporary solution knowing full well you'll have to completely redo it, it's a poor decision. Do it right the first time and you should only have to make minor adjustments later on. Why is it that 11 years into development we finally got server replication and server meshing? Why wouldn't that be the very first thing you do in a PERSISTENT UNIVERSE? In a game where the intention from it's initial announcement, spoke about a living breathing world with thousands of players. And you can't claim we didn't have the technology. MMORPGs had been doing 2000+ players per server long before Star Citizen was even a twinkle in Chris Roberts eyes. And separating zones into several servers had been done well before too. The die hards really need to stop making excuses for them.
A lot of players wanted the drawers even and there has been a lot of outrage since it was taken away. The complainers are always loudest. Cig is doing a very good compromise
@asog88 wrong, most player didn't like drawers. Drawers added an extra step for no reason, no benefit, not increasing immersion. Pretty much like item banks in general, they have unlimited inventory but you would have a hard time to even get one helmet inside. Star Citizen is a magic game with very little physics, very few mechanics that make sense, which is fine for a game. But don't play the "realistic" or "immersion" card, thank you :).
@@Camural a lot of players upset on spectrum that banks are gone. And I can’t find many players not enjoy it if they haven’t don’t the ptu, excited about using the kiosks Nobody enjoys local inventories, in any games. It’s why so few games have it
@asog88 you are just another guy on the internet who has no arguments, so people like you have to come up with things like "What Starfield would do" "You want COD in space" Not wasting my time with replies to you.
a shame you had to make this point. yes, if this were an indie game with only $200,000 behind it, sure, I'll click and zoom and struggle. ...but $720,000,000+ and 12+ years? dude! this has potential to hit 1 BILLION in funding. paper-doll or not, 'default view' should have been the FIRST thing developed for this feature. there actually do exist indie games that have been produced for less than $1,000,000 that have more intuitive, user-friendly UIs.
Ironically many of the worst elements of star citizen like the cumbersome hard to use 3D camera, the awful ironman UI, the ship UI's that blind you in the dark while being illegible in the light are all things that they spent VAST time and resources to make worse than if they had just 'taken the easy way out' with a 2D paper doll or flat rendered UI. Being ambitious is only a good thing if you have the skills to make something good, otherwise it's just a huge waste of resources like the trainwreck alpha we have after 12 years and 0.8 Billion spent.
You are very right. Regular players always forget the new player experience and this game needs fresh blood to succed. Most games have decent tutorials, even in game immersive "adventures" made to teach the game or at least the basics that can be passed. Modern players don't read, it's a fact. So yes, the first experience didtates to rely on common things found in other games, aka some form of clear and easy to use UI, like an always vivible paperdoll.
Maybe the new player experience should be a short presentation talking about how humanity went to the stars thanks to the ability of humanity to use the written word to store information and communicate, thus allowing the advancement of civilization. It will then show you documentation and explain that only humans are capable of reading it and those that who do not read the signs and documentation are subhuman and do not deserve to live among the stars. =)
I'm being snarky about it but it would honestly make me happy because I get tired of having to explain things over and over to illiterate people. "Where is the shop" -- "UNDER THE BIG FUCKING SIGN THAT SAYS SHOP RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOU" etc. For some reason people seem to be less attentive to the written word lately.
Watching White Knights implode over the loss of the Fidelity Drawer is absolutely hilarious.
Well, I haven't heard 'Fidelity Drawer' before. That's gold...
Star citizen commercial before the video started lol.
It still blows my mind how people can defend the development pace of this game. There's almost nothing in terms of basics features that is actually nailed down after 12+ years and were still missing a lot of them. There might no be loading screens but with the amount of useless time sinks and over complicated mechanics like the inventory system, they might as well be loading screens... This is potentially a dream game for me but the management of the project is horrendous.
I had no idea how many people love their ridiculous time wasting machines. The latest patch note thread is full of people asking the previous menu to be brought back.
Wait for the toilet gameplay. What if I take a (rather than give one) poop and there is a stuck poop bug or an engineering gameloop to unplug clogged piping. Will constipation or holding a poop during a fight cause me to die? The funny part is I just dont know in this game.
It's not the drawer is the better UI. The mechanics are getting there with the removal of the drawer but the UI needs work.
I think the previous UI but remove the drawer would be a better place to start and then just give people the ability to change item icon size.
Honestly for the hate CIG is given by influencers, it's pretty dope they listened to feedbackid PTU and adjusted it. Just 18 months ago this would have been something we would have had to suffer with till the next major patch
@@quarkedupphoton236 they've actually talked about this being more like RDR2 and having it be more of a buff/debuff kind of thing.
I actually find it hilarious that someone who hasn't pooped might have their sprinting debuffed.
Maybe too much movement will cAuae you to shit your pants and decrease NPCs willingness to engage
But... Item Bank is just a normal KIOSK. All the 'virtual items' should be on the screen like it's a normal kiosk screen. The hole in the Item Bank should be where the HAND-CLICKED PHYSICAL OBJECT is generated... but then there's no UEE Physicalizer Tech in this game. So, "What the hell-kinda-game are CIG making?"
Maybe my expectations for Cig is so bad I don't mind the shit camera angle
the item boxes everywhere look really stupid and now we still watch other players go around naked and attaching items out of nowhere. what improvement does it give to the game limiting it that to whats basically a public and open changing room?
doesn't putting them down nearly everywhere defeat the purpose of limiting access which they want to enforce for whatever reason? can't be any performance reasons because clearly it doesn't make a change. just like mastermodes. this is mastermodes for items.
@the_babbleboom item banks do not increase immersion, but now we have to go to certain, artificial spots, to use our local inventory.
Even Pyro will have item banks.
I wish I would knew what Chris plan is.
-Does Chris want to make a realistic game? Well nothing in Star Citizen is realistic, we don't even have some very basic physics, nothing has mass, no inertia, driving physics worse than in the very first Mario Kart arcade game, dying of thirst in 3 hours is not realistic, so I would say: "no".
-Does Chris want to make a fun, engaging and interesting game? Well nothing in Star Citizen in year 12 is fun, engaging and interesting, we have the same boring missions, CIG cannot even give us different bunker or Distribution Center layouts (is RASTAR really so terrible?), so I would say: "no".
It seems like Chris himself doesn't know what kind of game he wants to make, heck, if he even wants to make a game or does Chris want to make some kind of boring and tedious interactive movie?
The best waiting simulator? The best screenshot generator ever?
And if they created "Changing Rooms"..... we wouldn't be able to see our characters from *any* angle.
This is only one of many details that need improvement. It's difficult to enumerate them all because they're so small, but there's so many of them. One of my pet peeves is all of the transit systems are so janky. Even when the server is running well the transit systems are not smooth. Seeing trains blink off the rails and clip through geometry makes the whole simulation seem very cheap and low quality.
Agreed, this is among the most basic design considerations that should happen way before it makes it to end users. Yes this is alpha, but it never should have made it to PTU before being addressed.
they definitely tested it and went "who cares lol"
As if CIG ever had any QA testing.
They do some barebones test to see that it launches at all and then ship this straight out to Evocati and work from there.
I miss Star Citizen so much but its just getting worse to play.
I haven't played in a year, other than to log in, update and check keybinds. Seriously considering liquidating and just waiting to see what happens.
I am confused as to why we cannot just get global inventory and only accessible via these item banks. That limits your ability to access your gear everywhere but does not make it so we will be jumping across multiple star systems to go back and get a helmet we wanted. The reason for the local inventories is to make it more immersive but by limiting the access points it does the same thing but just a little less tedious.
CIG lies.
I had a problem with the Item Banks in the New Babbage habs. Inside the Hab itself, there is a big closet to either side of the Item Bank device. No matter what I did, I could not select the Item Bank *at all* to access inventory. It kept selecting one of the closets to either side and would open/close them instead. I eventually went outside to get dressed in the lobby.
Anybody else run into that?
It's even worse than that, a few days later they removed it saying "it was not providing the results we wanted"
What results exactly were they expecting? I mean, is that their excuse? It was so predictable that it was going to be shit, it shows that they are terrible game designers/developers.
and if your view is blocked from all sides because of other players? maybe it's blocked from one side but it's exactly the side you want to view?
Every other game has just a character view you can spin, but it's not obstructed by the world, it's just a character menu, that's it.
I don't get all the players trying all the time to justify bad game decisions just because they are fanboys, or I don't know what...
People miss the point, is not about being hard or not, its about a simple feature that any game has figured out by now, SC just cant get it right 12 years later..
Wow! Give this AAAAA game another A 👏
Just wait till events and there are dozens of people pushing the kiosks to equip, and you wont be able to see yourself
Everything stinks of design made to handle tens of players.
If they get server meshing working, populations will go up.
NOTHING is designed to deal with a population using the location.
Yep. It's the small things that shouldn't have to be fixed.
The primary goals of this were to reduce local server load by tracking inventory elsewhere to limit the number of loaded items and “improve immersion” by “physicalizing” inventory. These are the same stated goals for the cargo hanger.
Fine, it’s their game, if that’s part of the vision, do it.
My question remains: why didn’t they just… do a smaller cargo elevator then? The elevator uses the animation to hide the load-in process, but your ship configuration, your list of things you want, etc, all of that is done once with the elevator UI.
So why don’t we just… enter a changing room/closet/locker room, get shown the paper doll and our inventory list, gear up, and hide the load in behind the animation of entering/leaving the room?
This hides it from other players, retains all the back end benefits, and would be maximally easy for the player: go to place, gear up, leave.
It’s baffling that they already did this for ships but decided an entirely different, jankier answer was needed for players.
@piedpiper1172 the drawer didn't work. We had the same massive lags and desync issue we had before 3.24.
We have MMOs where player have literally thousands of items and their servers are fine.
@@Camural Oh, I agree. My point was even if you take CIG at their word and just accept their goals, this version is awful and makes neither gameplay nor design sense.
100% agree.
The problem isn't whether there was a drawer or not, the problem is that all the UI elements in this game are cumbersome and poorly implemented. The atrocious 3rd person view for fiddling with guns rather than the uniformly superior paper doll that just freaking works, the dreadful blurfest of an ironman ui and the illegible gui elements in all lighting conditions are an embarassment. The person who approved these UIs is irredeemably stupid and should be removed from the creative flow.
@RN1441 a simple 2D paperdoll, like most games use, would have been perfect. A player can see at first glance what items are equipped and what items are missing.
However, this is not good enough for Chris. Chris wants eye candy, fluff, time sinks and cool cinematic.
Usability, ease of use, making a fun and interesting game, never play any role for Chris.
@@Camural Conceptually I'm fine with a 3D interface if it worked better than the paperdoll. The theme of CIG is that they spend vast effort and backer funds to develop worse solutions to long solved problems. It's basically their mantra 'we do it worse with more resources, and refuse to learn from what others have done right.'
@@Camural Everyone loves eye candy, but it has to work and not get in the way of fun. Area18, Orison, and New Babbage are all fluff and eye candy that players love, and they don't get in the way fun.
@@RN1441 They do it differently just for the sake of doing it differently, cause they can't (or maybe don't want to) rely on tried and true game solutions so they can later pat themselves on the shoulder and be like "look what amazing never-been-done-before solution we made here".
@@tfishr when the trains work we can enjoy those places.... Assuming an elevator doesn't eat us on the way down from the habs.
Jeez.
They should have made access limited to hangars, hab rooms, or a safety deposit box type bank setup.
Equipment kiosks for an item bank is just terrible.
valve playtests their games every single week to make sure they stay on track when it comes to fun. they said they do that because they dont want to develop an entire system, gameplay loop, or worse without testing to see if players actually enjoy it. notice the difference. how did no one play test the new menu and decide it was good for gameplay flow. now we have fallen back to the old menu as a bandaid for their incompetence. It hurts so much its actually funny.
People that defend this game have to understand that someone actually implemented this functionality to be this way. Even if they made it once and then copied it everywhere that you see a kiosk, making the default camera rotation on the opposite side of the kiosk makes zero sense. Someone didn't think this through and it's the same for soooo much of the functionality/mechanics of this game. Poor decisions are made and implemented without much thought. This is why this game is on year 11 going on 12. They implement things without any forward thinking and then have to fix it later on. That often requires re-writes. When you implement something as a temporary solution knowing full well you'll have to completely redo it, it's a poor decision. Do it right the first time and you should only have to make minor adjustments later on. Why is it that 11 years into development we finally got server replication and server meshing? Why wouldn't that be the very first thing you do in a PERSISTENT UNIVERSE? In a game where the intention from it's initial announcement, spoke about a living breathing world with thousands of players. And you can't claim we didn't have the technology. MMORPGs had been doing 2000+ players per server long before Star Citizen was even a twinkle in Chris Roberts eyes. And separating zones into several servers had been done well before too. The die hards really need to stop making excuses for them.
I hope this is just a bug and will be fixed when they are back in office next week. At least let's hope lol
Looks like I’m skipping 3.24 aswell. Won’t even bother updating it
Its all about QOL , better user experience...CIG just sucks hard at this point.
A lot of players wanted the drawers even and there has been a lot of outrage since it was taken away. The complainers are always loudest.
Cig is doing a very good compromise
@asog88 wrong, most player didn't like drawers. Drawers added an extra step for no reason, no benefit, not increasing immersion.
Pretty much like item banks in general, they have unlimited inventory but you would have a hard time to even get one helmet inside.
Star Citizen is a magic game with very little physics, very few mechanics that make sense, which is fine for a game.
But don't play the "realistic" or "immersion" card, thank you :).
@@Camural a lot of players upset on spectrum that banks are gone. And I can’t find many players not enjoy it if they haven’t don’t the ptu, excited about using the kiosks
Nobody enjoys local inventories, in any games. It’s why so few games have it
@asog88 this is your opinion, please don't pretend everyone shares your opinion.
@@Camural local inventory is lazy. It’s what starfield would do.
@asog88 you are just another guy on the internet who has no arguments, so people like you have to come up with things like
"What Starfield would do"
"You want COD in space"
Not wasting my time with replies to you.