Tolkien wrote to this to his friend Robert Murray, who was a priest: “The Lord of the Rings is of course a fundamentally religious and Catholic work; unconsciously so at first, but consciously in the revision.”
Tolkien was a private person who didn't like people praying too much into the meaning of his work. But Ideally he wanted to create a national epic for England. A Kalevala(the national Finnish epic.) for England. As a Philologist his main area of expertise was the Anglo-Saxons. In fact he was the one who turned me onto Beowulf and great Anglo-Saxon poems like the seafarer and the wanderer. The Balrog is clearly influenced by Beowulf and the poems in the books(not in the movies) are clearly influenced by the Anglo-Saxons.
@@loveandmercy9664 Both of you are correct. Tolkien wanted to make a clearly English fairy tale that hinted towards Christ. The Letters of JRR Tolkien written by the author however, paint a clear picture that Tolkien intended his work to be Catholic and draw people closer to Christ. There is a great BBC Documentary that actually interviews Father Murray. In that documentary, he explains that Tolkien told him that he did not want it to be obviously Christian, like the Divine Comedy is, but English in plain view with parallels to his Traditional Latin Roman Catholic religion. Tolkien's son John actually became a priest.
@@jackwalters5506 The issue is that some have difficulty differentiating from "religious work" and "religious propaganda." LoTR is in no way evangelism, and any one of any faith or lack there of can enjoy it fully at face value. But it's still fundamentally religious.
Tolkien wished to provide a mythology for the British Isles as their own mythology had been destroyed (Norman conquest).Tolkien’s Catholicism can’t help but be reflected in his writings!
Tolkien turned me onto Beowulf(Balrog) and kickass Anglo-Saxon poems like the wanderer and the seafarer. The poems in LOTR were influenced by the Anglo-Saxons. The Anglo-Saxons viewed Jesus as a warrior king.
Orthodox England? Church split was in 1054, Norman conquest 1066. Norman's deposed many of the clergy. Many Saxon men ended up in Varangian guard in Constantinople afterward...
@@loveandmercy9664 Beowulf is heathen. The Anglo Saxons originally believed in Odin (Woden) and the other Germanic gods. Christianity was forced upon them by evil forces from far off lands.
The sort of people who would accuse Tolkien of paganism are the same sort of people who leave their children devoid of any wonder at the folklore and imagination of culture.
@Radagast "Pagan at heart" is such a vague and malleable term that it's basically useless. As a non-Christian myself, I understand the desire to label all of our great European forefathers who happened to be Christian as "pagan at heart," but . . . . just being a cool dude with good ideas, and who maybe likes poetry, nature and/or mystery . . . doesn't make someone a "pagan" in any real sense of the word. Might as well just say they're all "human at heart." Claiming cool Christians as "pagan at heart" is the same thing as when the Christians said that anything good, true, and beautiful was inherently Christian, and so Socrates was "Christian at heart." Just as silly.
@Radagast Your paragraph is difficult to read. I would agree fundamentally with it in a manner of speaking, but if you’re saying that the Asatru gods and Irish/Celtic gods are equivalent to the pagans outside of the original Christian communities in the Bible, then I would disagree entirely. The Catholic Church saw them as pagans, but that’s using the common definition of pagan now seeing as they weren’t surrounding the Christian communities originally. Also as someone who is Catholic, I agree with you that Tolkien’s books are more inspired by pagan mythology than Catholicism, but I would disagree that he was a pagan. In any manner of speaking. Your bias is leaking through your pfp.
@Radagast Firstly, all one has to do is look at your profile picture and account to see how biased you are. You even already said the paganism, “resonates with me most.” I never died paganism in his heritage. All of us (whom are of European descent) have “paganism” in our heritage. But obviously we don’t live in pagan cutler now, (THANK CHRIST) and nor did JRR Tolkien. I have not heard one serious scholar claim that we are currently under the influence of pagan culture. I’ve heard secular scholars claim we are under the influence of Christian culture however. As someone who is a polymath, with culture, history, and Religion being my favorite subjects, I only need to know a tidbit about the pagan religions that influenced Tolkien’s books to know that he isn’t a “pagan”. I mean he obviously was most interested in Asatru and Celtic gods which weren’t AngloSaxon. Druidic gods weren’t Germanic and were believed majorly on the west side of the Rhein. Seeing as Tolkien was of English/German descent, his genetic heritage would not have been made up of much Brythonic blood. Regardless, there are only small remnants of pagan culture like days of weeks in Germanic and Romance languages, and holidays. Our moral system of course comes from Christian culture. And our concept of art and science is definitely Christian. Absorbing all things that are good has been part of Christian culture for 2000 years.
I believe C.S. Lewis said it best in the chronicles of Narnia: "The deeper magic" One of the earliest church we have the Dura-Europas house church in Syria(tragically destroyed by IS) from the 2nd century has pagan influenced art with Christian motifs replaced with Christian ones. Like instead of Hermes carrying a lamb its Jesus. Or when the Norse started to convert you have the Stave church which is an old Norse temple turned into a church. Both super beautiful. Even here in Canada the Jesuit Jean Le Bruf took a Huron Hymn and adapted into a Christmas Carol called the Huron Carol. Canada's oldest Christmas Carol. There's also the Book of Kells and Gargoyles.
En si lo que tu resumes como catolicos su mombre completo es Cristianos Catolicos Apostolicos Romanos y son mas antiguos por muchos siglos que los Protestantes
@@crushinnihilism Apparently LOTR is a pagan story, at first glance. But intelligent and inquisitive people have discovered the hidden and implied Christian message the author has embedded in it.
@borrico1965 it's a pagan story. Pagan myth. Pagan ideals in a pagan world with Pagan Gods. Gandalf is quite literally Odin. These inquisitive people have never read any of the Eddas. They havnt read the Sagas. They havnt read Greek myth. The clearly havnt touched Plato. It appears Christian to those who have never read the myths and philosophy of the pagan world, literature Tolkien was familiar with
yes, the Book of Jonah for the English translation. However, most rad trads out there don't like the Jerusalem Bible Translation. According to these "gate keepers" of the faith, its too dynamic, even though it was translated by Dominicans monks and other scholars at the École Biblique in Jerusalem.
☝️🤲En si la Biblia de Jerusalem nace de la Biblia de los Cristianos Catolicos Apostolicos Romanos.Ya que el emperador Romano Costantino I el primer emperador Cristiano en Europa, fue el que encargo buscar todos los libros de los Apostoles para hacer solo un solo libro e hay la biblia. Y su madre la Emperatriz Helena fue la que guardo los clavos y cruz de Cristo, era Cristiana y conocia en persona a los Apostoles cuando estubieron en Roma. Muchos siglos despues nacerian los Protestabtes que se desprenden de los Cristianos Catolicos Apostolicos Romanos. Y los protestantes sacaron algunos libros de la Biblia de los Cristianos Catolicos Romana.
I read something about changing plans that would turn Notre Dame into some sort of dystopian "Disney-fied" attraction and cannot find any sources that elaborate on this possibility. My heart sank when i read it. God please don't let this happen.
I realize I'm probably mostly preaching to the choir here but... 1. People need to realize that all human cultures are a mixture of three things, humanity, angelic influence, and demonic influence. The fact that something came from a "pagan" culture basically doesn't mean anything regarding whether that thing is true, good, and beautiful. Each thing has to be judged on it's own merits. This is the same logical fallacy as dismissing a statement because of who said it. You don't dismiss something simply because of who said it, you judge it on it's own merits and dismiss it only if it is not true. Now, who said something may give you reason to be more suspicious and there is nothing wrong with that. Likewise, we may want to look closely that things that come from pagan cultures, but that's not the same thing as just condemning them all out of hand. 2. Most people aren't really aware of this, but there is something in the Old Testament called the "divine council" which is essentially the court of heaven where God sits as the King and he has other members of the divine council who are advisors, but also he established them to govern the nations of the earth. This parallels the pantheons of many pagan cultures more closely than many Christians are comfortable with. However, the key difference is that God is eternal, uncreated, and completely unique in kind, where as the other members of the council are created, finite, and not unique in kind. Most people today would call these "angels" as that has become the generic term for all celestial beings that are not God. However, in the OT they were called "the sons of God" and also were referred to as elohim (small g "gods"). The OT also makes clear that many of these members of the divine council fell and became "fallen angels" they are "principalities and powers" that St. Paul talks about in the New Testament. You can see a glimpse into how all this works in the book of Daniel when the Angel Gabriel shows up to answer Daniel's prayers. He tells Daniel that God sent him on the very first day when Daniel began to pray, but that the "Prince of Persia" resisted him for 21 days and then Michael the Prince of God's people came to aid Gabriel and as a result, Gabriel was able to get through. Then he says that he must now return to the fight because the Prince of Greece is also coming to fight with them. What this shows is, first of all, that it is not unbiblical or unchristian to admit that there really are other gods, as long it is understood that they are not the same type of being as God, and that they are created finite beings. Thus the idea of the Valar is not just a pagan idea, it is also a biblical idea. This also shows that in every culture there are both demonic principalities that are twisting the truth, and also angelic powers that are wrestling with them to inspire truth. 3. I am relatively confident in saying that the most demonically inspired culture in human history is Post-Modernism. I'd be tempted to say the second most demonically inspired is Modernism. Both of these were born out of ostensibly "Christian" culture of western civilization. More over, most of the Christians who are upset about paganism in Tolkien and Lewis, are themselves infected by Modernism and/or Post-modernism, which is much worse.
very interesting. could you clarify a little on what you mean post-Modernism and modernism are? When you mention modernism being born out of "christian" culture I am thinking of the more 'woke' or 'new age' ideas (the law of attraction) that have entered some christian churches. I have no trouble seeing how that is demonically inspired but don't really know about what post- modernism would be.
@@hollyslager2883 Sure. In a general sense modernism can mean the philosophy and worldview of the modern age. The modern age, in historical terms stretches from the 17th century up to the 20th century. However, modern thought had already begun to take over Europe in the 16th century. This line of thinking began as a school of thought in the Universities of Europe known as the Via Moderna or "Modern way". It was contrasted with the Via Antiqua, or Ancient way. The Via Antiqua was the classical Catholic view built off of Catholic theology and the philosophy of Plato and Aristotle as it was adapted by Catholic thinkers from St. Augustine to St. Thomas Aquinas. The Reformation was heavily influenced by the Via Moderna and was in a number of ways born out of modern thought. There is also more specifically the heresy of Modernism, which is an attempt to alter Catholic doctrine to fit with the philosophy and worldview of the modern age. The heresy of Modernism has been described as the heresy that embraces all other heresies. It is essentially the idea that there are no truths, doctrines, or dogmas that can't be questioned and reevaluated in the context of modern thought. Basically that everything can be changed to make it fit with what the world believes. Some of the main elements of Modernism in the more general sense are Materialism (the idea that only the physical world exists and there is no supernatural). Reductionism, which holds that in order to understand things we have to beak them down to their most simple form. This has also been called "nothing but-ism" or "only-ism". For example, human beings are only animals. Our mind is nothing but a brain with chemical and electrical impulses. Modernism also generally involves the idea that only that which can be scientifically or mathematically proven can be believed. Thus it limits all forms of thought and inquiry down to only scientific or mathematical thought and inquiry. Modernism is most clearly evident in the enlightenment philosophy of the 18th and 19th centuries. The so called "Age of Reason". Post-modernism is a philosophy that began in the 19th century and became popular up through the 20th century. It began taking over from Modernism probably mostly in the second half of the 20th century up to our current day. It is mostly dominant now, but there are still some hangers on from Modernism. Post-modernism is heavily characterized by the denial of objective meaning and truth. The driving force of Post-modernism is the idea of radical freedom and self-determination. In other words, you are completely free to be and to do whatever you want. All claims of truth, morality, and so on are simply attempts of the power structures of society to oppress you. In this view, all claims of truth and the like are simply the power structure that the dominant ruling class uses to keep everyone else in line. It denies that you have any predetermined identity (like a destiny from God, or even a nature given by God) because those things would place demands on you, and would prevent you from being whatever you want to be. Post-Modernism is the origin and intellectual force behind woke culture and all of the things like hating the patriarchy, and so on. In short, Modernism denied universal non-physical truths. It held that all truth must be found by inquiry into the natural world (empiricism) or by purely rational inquiry (rationalism). Modernism failed to deliver on its promises of enlightenment however, which lead philosophers to begin to doubt our ability to know anything at all. This began the birth of Post-Modernism. Post-Modernism becomes full grown with the idea that not only can we not know anything objectively, but we can't even communicate objectively because words themselves don't have objective meaning. In other words, Truth cannot be known, the only "truth" is whatever truth you invent for yourself, and language itself is neither true, nor false.. words don't mean, they simply are. Does that help?
@@joshuacooley1417 we simply can't forget what this thought movement has done to our ruling class the corrupt grabbing of powers beyond their rights as fellow catholics. By catholics I mean everyone on this planet because lest we forget we all share the same God even if there are a great many that don't believe we do so. Secret societies and lust of power really twisted men and women to horrendous acts of heresy in the post modern Era to present day. Lest we forget the wrongdoings of our holy church fathers who have been abusing power over our texts for far too long.
@@hollyslager2883 Modernism: Descartes, Spinoza, Leibnitz, Hume, Kant, Hegel Postmodernism: Kierkegaard, Nietzsche, Marx, Sartre I'm hesitant to put contemporary thinkers in the same bucket as those postmodern philosophers.
I've been reading Matthew Milliner's the everlasting people which explorers the writings of G.K. Chesterton and the First Nations of North America and its fantastic. Tolkien had a interest in First Nations in First Nations culture and mythology as well. "with their “bows and arrows … and strange languages, and glimpses of an archaic mode of life, and, above all, forests” Tolkien
There are genuine college theology courses that have a dedicated portion in the curriculum about this, dissecting every aspect of its Catholic roots in the story. I've known about this simple connection since I was 12 when first hearing about it in middle school Religion class. While bringing up the point itself is interesting, it's hard to refute that a story based off of the human experience may come into similarity with other stories based off of human experience, whether it be Catholic or Pegan in origin. Other comments have even mentioned that he didn't even intend its Catholic similarity in the first place. But the fact that he noticed the similarities to Catholicism in particular and committed to it is a strong point in and of itself that cannot be ignored. Tolkein was very well-educated in his own theology and knew what he was doing. I always get the vibe from your videos (which, truth be told, I have not seen very many of, so I may be misunderstanding where you're coming from a bit) that you lack a fundamental understanding on certain topics. While I commend you for reaching out to explore alternative and typically controversial discussion more thoroughly, it surprises me that you, a Catholic convert, wouldn't first explore the Catholic teaching portion first (an understanding that you're still learning), gaining a comprehensive understanding of it, doing the research into its source (particularly in this instance where we have a clear view and knowledge of its source), and *then* putting things into question with your recently gained knowledge to then draw conclusions from. It instead seems like you go into well-established teachings, put those teachings into question, and then explore on your own to then draw conclusions from whatever you find and wherever you happen to find it. Just honestly saying, that's just the kind of vibe I get from each and every one of your videos, and that's an easy way to get lost. You can just see from the amount of comments that this information is readily available, already thoroughly dissected, and long well-established. TL;DR - While I never condemn research into an arguing point (that Tolkein's LotR may have Pegan roots), I will condemn the lack of research into the established notion it's arguing against (that Tolkein's LotR is Catholic), and I only say this so strongly due to the availability of this information.
Tolkien is the most deliberate coded illusionist imaginable. He winks at the audience. He's Mr. "I didn't do nothing." And then he totally puts Christian imagery a mile a minute into his Paganism, for anyone who is paying attention.
The great poet Dante, who was a devout Catholic, was greatly influenced by Pagan Greco-Roman mythology. His literary masterpiece, The Divine Comedy's inferno is filled with Pagan elements. His guide and master teacher in the Inferno was non other then the great roman pagan poet, Virgil, which greatly influenced Dante's work and is stated in the Divine Comedy by Dante and he was Catholic! Contrary to popular belief today by the "Gate Keepers of Christianity, the Christian middle-age intellects were greatly influenced by and revered Pagan literature, philosophy and history., e.g. Plato, Aristotle, Homer, Virgil, etc.
Thank you for this discussion, especially for the portion dealing with the ancient vs modern "pagans". It reminded me of my first reading way back in university of Lewis' views when asked on whether he believed the West was reverting to paganism, and he replied (with words to the effect) that we should be rather lucky if it were only that. At least the ancients still believed in natural law and had a concept of eternal Truth. He was right of course; we have descended into something far darker.
Hi! Since you have made some videos before about Harry Potter before I was thinking if you have noticed.. The similarities in the stories compared to everything going on nowadays. Because lately I've thinking about Harry Potter books, especially the 5th one. I keep thinking how in the 5th book, Voldemort returns and nobody believes Harry, how everything he says is now considered "false information". How a school teacher even makes him write the "I must not tell lies" with his own blood to his hand.. Politicians, people in the ministry of magic etc are well aware that Voldemort has returned, but they don't want to do anything to help the situation. Some of them won't do anything because they are in denial and scared. But some of them won't do anything, because those restless times are all they have been waiting for, they want to use the situation to gain more power for themselves. Some people are just evil and want to do bad things. At the same time they also start to restrict Harry and everyone else in the school, what they can think, say and do. They are trying to keep them clueless, powerless and weak, so that they won't rise up and revolt against "the plan". Has anyone else noticed the similarities? I've also been thinking have these books left some impression to people who read them as kids. Maybe they are more likely to react to these times like Harry, be brave and stand up for what is right? Even if that makes them a social outcast and even a criminal, in some people's eyes? Also I'm not a crazy fan of Harry Potter and the stories have their own issues, but for some reason these things have been in my head lately. I did enjoy those stories when I was a child.
While watching the movies relatively recently, the whole part in the fifth one about the Ministry denying Voldemort returning certaingly has that 'fake news/misinformation' vibe to it for sure.
I agree with everything you just said (except that I am a pretty enthusiastic fan. My husband and I spend a lot of time at Hogsmeade and Diagon Alley in Orlando, drinking hot butterbeer and soaking in the ambience). Watching the whole series of films recently was like seeing them with new eyes. Whatever the criticisms against the books (and some are reasonable), I can say with confidence that growing up with them increased my bravery and loyalty. The themes of self-sacrifice for others, true noble friendship, and familial love are so strong in the series.
@@culturecoroner Classical narratives of heroism, tragedy, love and truth. I feel blessed that I grew up with stories like Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings and Star Wars. Same kind of themes and they paved the way for me towards Christianity, slow and unsure as it may be.
@@culturecoroner Yes, I feel the same way! I really looked up to these characters and stories made a lasting memories about bravery, loyalty, importance of friendship, love and forgiving too. I also love how Harry is so honest, even if it makes him seem crazy in other people's eyes. It is so interesting to hear that other people who also grew up with these books have also noticed these same things in themselves :) And I definitely love these themes in the books, even though I'm not a "crazy fan" haha. Just a regular old fan I guess. My favourite character was always Luna.
I feel like some people are waking up to the fact that the flow of information nowadays is corrupted and compromised, but most people aren’t willing to give up their pet vices in the service of Truth. Most of them don’t even connect the dots between our runaway hedonism and the corruption of information.
The strongest argument against the idea of Tolkien's works as crypto catholic (besides the obvious influence from pagan mythology) comes from the letters he exchanged with his non catholic friends. In a particular letter Tolkien said some ideas shared with his non-catholic friends should be conveid in their works that just a few readers could grasp. And that's it. No more details given. Tolkien's detractors (from the catholic point of view) use that as a proof of his uncatholicity because, as they claim, one cannot possibly share ideas/values with non catholics and still be catholic. As far as I see, Tolkien's works are not properly catholic - oppenly apologetic, lets say - but are not a danger for the faithful either. Sufice to say those who prohibited their children from reading his works are breeding a new generation of militant atheists (much like overstrict fathers breed psychological damaged promiscuous women, I know some very tragic cases...). Not good.
But he said it himself in Letter 142: The Lord of the Rings is of course a fundamentally religious and Catholic work; unconsciously so at first, but consciously in the revision. That is why I have not put in, or have cut out, practically all references to anything like 'religion', to cults or practices, in the imaginary world. For the religious element is absorbed into the story and the symbolism.
Let's say for the sake of the argument that LOTR was more pagan than Christian (its not, and the evidence in J.R.R. Tolkien's letters and writings about LOTR prove that imo), let us not forget CCC 843 "The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life." This to me points to that even if something is pagan it may still have A light or A truth worth hearing.
It's like when St Peter spent most of his time amongst the gentiles. The modern zeitgeist claims all cultural interactions as a Darwinian materialist struggle. The christian reality is not about stealing from alien cultures but being good neighbours and integrating harmoniously with each other.
5:16 I'll give one example which I didn't get from Lewis or Tolkien. When my university teacher of Latin poetry (who was also my second father confessor) gave us Aeneid VI, he obviously came to the Cumaean Sibil. He made a very clear reference to the girl from who St. Paul expelled a Sibylline spirit and with mediums of Voodoo to this day.
The majority of the worldview of Catholicism comes directly from Greek & Roman Paganism, with very little coming from the Bible other than the figure of Jesus. Even Mary veneration is fundamentally Pagan practice. Nearly everything about Tolkien’s work is Pagan, even the minimal parts of his work that he viewed and claimed were catholic have their origin in Greco Roman Paganism & not the Bible
It's self-evident that the overarching ethical and moral framework of LOTR is Catholic. Tolkien himself confirmed as much. But you have to work to see it, because Tolkien hated analogy and wasn't about to beat you over the head with something obvious. He wasn't creating Aslan in Narnia. There are at least three Christ-like characters and one Mary-like character, but you can't point to any one of them and say that this person/place/thing is definitively X. That was never Tolkien's intent, and if that's what you're looking for, you'll never find it. Neat timing, incidentally, as we just finished our annual Thanksgiving weekend LOTR viewing marathon.
It's christianization of pagan tropes. Take Gandalf for example. Tolkien himself stated that Gandalf is 'odinic' in his nature, but at the same time he is place among the spiritual beings of Tolkien's universe is that of an angle, not a god. He is a lower tier angle, who ultimately serves Eru - one, true God
It’s a story - not propaganda (let alone propaganda by allegory) for *any* worldview. It is strongly influenced by its author’s Catholicism (as he explained on several occasions - but it is strongly influenced by many things in its author’s experience: his expertise in philology, his familiarity with Norse & Finnish mythology, his knowledge of Old English, Finnish, Old Norse, his love of England, his dislike of some kinds of technology, etc. People who call it pagan do so only because they have not one-hundredth of Tolkien’s wide reading. Christian literature does not consist of the endless spewing of Bible verses. And thank God for that. Tolkien’s great error was to write for intelligent & educated adults, people who were not narrow-minded Fundamentalist fanatics.
Ezekiel and the wheel, A talking burning bush, Angels shaped like humans in Sodom and Gomorrah, Giants in the land of Milk and honey, white dove as the holy spirit. I can see many things that Tolkien took from the Bible. Churches also take Pagan designs into their buildings and actually mix them with their traditions.
I believe he once stated the first draught was largely absent of catholisism, but the following he slowly weaved gods truth in this magnum opis of a work.
Actually he stated in a letter that in the rewriting he took away all reference to a religion "into universe" because he became aware of the "ineherent catholicism" of the story. And he didn't weaved anything "religious" in his story, exactly because it didn't need it. He despised the stories "with an agenda" (that's why he didn't like the Narnia series, when Lewis brought it to him).
I think Tolkien wanted to create a mythology for Britain (or maybe anyone who has an ancestral connection). Despite the fact the Celts have myths, and there are myths held about Camelot, I see most of it as broken stories. There is no over arching unity, like other cultures, the Greeks, the Romans, Norse Gods, etc. As a Christian I think most mythology is pagan. That doesn't mean there are not other elements informing the writing of someone like Professor Tolkien. Professor Tolkien, as a lover of language (especially the Anglo/Saxon) even translated Beowulf, Sir Gawain and the Green Knight, and Perle (ME: Pearl). When I read Beowulf, I see so much of The Hobbit in it, or vice versa. Despite the fact he said he hated allegories, I feel long held, personal beliefs cannot be erased from a work like Lord of the Rings. Professor Tolkien stated he hated allegory. But I see allegories throughout his work. Being a Christian, perhaps I look for them; but I don't think so. I mentioned Beowulf and The Hobbit. The allegories I see there are to each other. Perhaps there are more allegories in The Hobbit than I have noticed as Christian. But The Lord of the Rings is replete with Christian allegory. I mention this to my non-Christian friends, and they get angry. When I explain what I see, they usually don't say much more. As a writer myself, I believe my writing is informed by all my beliefs. Not just Christian.
0:35 It is very helpful to distinguish between Norse myth about gods and Norse legends about heroes. And Norse legends about heroes are generally very much less pagan, less concerned with gods, than for instance Greek legends about heroes. The Norse version of Sigurd's story has Odin give him some occasional help, but there is very much less of it than the really intense abetting Athena gives Ulysses in the Odyssey. It is significant that the one prayer Sigurd and Brynhild do to any kind of god is to the Sun and Moon for powers of healing. And in Norse myth, standard version, Sun and Moon were not gods and had no powers of healing. They were just servants of the gods, like in St. Thomas (Ia P, Q 70, A3, corpus) the angels of heavenly planets are servants of God. It seems perfectly possible to me that Sigurd and Brynhild were worshipping Apollo and Diana, as Apollo is called Apollon Iater in one quality and Diana is associated with childbirth - very unlike the case with Sun and Moon in Norse Pagan myths about gods.
7:14 St. Augustine _certainly_ thinks Aeneas existed, as well as Romulus, but he likens Romulus to Cain and he considers Aeneas saving a statue of Athena was on a fool's errand. Read City of God.
8:00 _"the desire for god, we see it in Homer or in Sophocles"_ In fact, Sophocles, after Aeneid VI, is to me the black book of pagan gods in general, and especially Apollo, though the villains in Hippolytus were rather Neptune and Venus. After seeing Neptune fulfil the request of Theseus to kill his son, I think Neptune was a demon with whom Theseus had a very bad covenant. Ulmo meeting Tuor at Nevrast is less readable to me (but outside LotR!) after I saw this aspect of Neptune. His Mycenaean name being Potei Daon reminds us, he's also the false Canaanaean god Dagon, whose temple Samson overthrew.
as a Trad Catholic I know I SHOULD love LOTR but I found both the books and films as exciting as watching paint dry, would be easy to lose the will to live in fact
The movies suck, but then the only movie that was better than the book is Jaws. As far as the LOTR books, I think you have to have an interest in classic literature and imagination to be able to enjoy them.
I've spent my life perplexed by the parallels of paganism with Christianity. And while I'd love to read Pilgrims Regress, the analogy of pictographs was revolutionary.
5:50 Aristotle and Plato refused to worship in their inner conscience and their teaching before students, gods who fornicated. It is less clear whether they withdrew worship from the Pythonic spirit who misled people to their ruin at Delphi. Let's be clear, because Aristotle and Plato point to valuable truth doesn't mean they were necessarily clean, just as with Ulysses - a foreboding of Christ's return, but perhaps even so led by a demon. I really don't know what Athena is, if there even is one single answer.
The pagan 'gods' were demonic entities? Yes! I agree with St Athanasius. However, it seems to me that as we know that God is always bringing good out of evil, anything within the pagan culture that is good, beautiful or true must come from God and is His action within the pagan culture, leading it, as Jonathan says, 'towards Christ'. Therefore, it is possible at least, that one may take these certain good, beautiful and true elements from a pagan culture and use them in a way that is in conformity to the Gospel. I believe this is what Tolkien has done with his work 'The Lord of the Rings'. Isn't this also what St Paul did (Acts 17:23), when he proclaimed boldly the Gospel after first referencing and making a holy use (rhetorically) of the statue that the Athenians had erected 'to an unknown God'? Jonathan's analogy of the difference between the 'virginal' pagan and the 'unfaithful' neo-pagan culture's is also interesting. We can see that many pagan's were drawn through their attraction to and cooperation with the good, beautiful and true within the pagan culture to finally come into the full light and knowledge of Christ through accepting the Gospel; while the neo-pagan culture has conversely been attracted to and has cooperated with the darkness and has thereby rejected the Gospel and once again succumbed to demonic worship i.e the worship of pagan gods and other forms of idolatry. It is clear that In the context of the rejection of Christ - any other 'god' is a demon ipso facto. It's as simple as that.
Tolkien himself hated analogies, so I believe that he made his story intencionally dubious in order to make fun of people that see analogy in everything
@@Laurelin70 exactly-allegory, not analogy. Although, I always found it interesting that he disliked allegory so much yet wrote the best allegorical piece I’ve ever read: Leaf By Niggle.
But he said it himself in Letter 142: The Lord of the Rings is of course a fundamentally religious and Catholic work; unconsciously so at first, but consciously in the revision. That is why I have not put in, or have cut out, practically all references to anything like 'religion', to cults or practices, in the imaginary world. For the religious element is absorbed into the story and the symbolism.
Like Tolkien wrote in the first book of Lord of the rings (I hope I could retranslate it good back to english): Anything that's interpreted into this story is just interpretation, nothing more. For me there are more parallels to the time when Tolkien lived and partially wrote the story - the world wars with the giant confrontations worldwide.
Both in a way Tonkin enjoyed pagan stories and usesd elements of them in his works but the core of the story and its themes are inherently catholic in nature.
Funny to hear mention of C S Lewis explanation that all time is present to God, yet presume other beliefs from before the introduction of Christianity we're not THEMSELVES DERIVED from information known before the tower and flood
Yeah, that's from God. Adam's children knew, and handed it on to their children, but over the generations their children's children walked further and further from God. They still sought Him, though.
3:02 If God could put allegories of Christ into real life people (like Abraham and Isaac) in the Old Testament, it stands to reason, some of the "pictures" were real life heroes. I take it Ulysses existed, and that his return, the fidelity of Penelope, and the punishment of the suitors, prefigures the Apocalypse. And did so before the readers of the Odyssey became Christians. This would stand whether the spiritual entity Ulysses took for Athena was his guardian angel or a demon. One can also mention, some of the myths of heroes insofar as they feature gods, feature gods showing they are really demons, like Iliad, song I - which I think St. John and many of his audience had in fact read. Apollo is first called Apollyon in that song by Homer.
Is “Neither” an option? Someone correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t Tolkein himself (at least in the introduction to my copy of LOTR) say that the story was not meant to be allegorical for anything? Can an elf just be an elf?
I would say that people who accuse him of Paganism, like the "Gate Keepers" of the Christian faith, are out to lunch, but those that deny any Christian influence in his work are also wrong. He obviously was influenced by both Pagan(Norse) mythology and Christianity, being a devout man. But who cares if he had pagan influences in his stories, they still have Christian elements in them. Dante who was a devout Catholic was greatly influenced by Pagan Greco-Roman mythology. His literary masterpiece, The Divine Comedy's inferno is filled with Pagan elements. His guide and master teacher in the Inferno was non other then the great roman pagan poet, Virgil, which greatly influenced Dante's work and is stated in the Divine Comedy by Dante and he was Catholic! Contrary to popular belief today, the Christian middle-age intellects were greatly influenced by pagan literature, philosophy and history., e.g. Plato, Aristotle, Homer, Virgil, etc.
@@clattereffect no objection to any of that, but didn’t Tolkein say the following: “I cordially dislike allegory in all its manifestations, and always have done so since I grew old and wary enough to detect its presence. I much prefer history - true or feigned- with its varied applicability to the thought and experience of readers. I think that many confuse applicability with allegory, but the one resides in the freedom of the reader, and the other in the purposed domination of the author." That’s in the intro to my edition of LOTR. It seems to me that - whatever LOTR’s inspirations (and I agree with your opinion of them) - taking it as directly allegorical as some have is going too far. Am I wrong?
Yep, that was the statement of Tolkien, however even if he wasn't intending to give a message, it's very likely that his world view influenced his writing even if he wasn't intending to lecture anyone.
@@Archangel76 Tolkien should have been more circumspect with his generalisation. After all, Holy Scripture is full of allegories -- the allegorical tense is one of the three tenses of Scripture -- so God clearly thinks highly of them.
Tolkien did not set out to make pagan propaganda he was a devout Catholic but that is what happened with his book and its imitators, even though Tolkien did not intend this. LOTR was championed by the hippies of the 60s and 70s, almost as their bible this led many to the occult and not to Christianity. Anyone who tries to suggest that this is a Christian allegory is deluding themselves and is not looking at its actual effect on society and it influence on the New Age and the burgeoning of the Occult in the 20th and 21st centuries. It is obviously not the only modern influence on the rise of modern paganism but it is one of the major influences. The themes with its earth powers of white and dark magic cannot be dismissed. Just because white magic wins in the LOTR does not mean that those who practice white magic are aligned with Christianity, I don't believe many people have found Christianity through the LOTR in fact I don't know anyone. But I believe that people found the occult because of the LOTR. So to your question Lord of the Rings - Pagan or Catholic, I'm afraid its Pagan!
This had almost no relation to Tolkien if we're being honest So he is basing his interpretation of Tolkiens work on the work of Lewis and adding the narrative that god ( the god of Israel, who wants people beheaded for idolatry) merely came to all these people as the pantheons of gods from ancient Scandinavian cultures. To remind them of the one true God? Because they couldn't read. But had their own language, built longboats, had all the same weapons and armor. How does this in any way make sense? It's easy to sit there and say nice things, but the reality is, the abrahamic faiths genocided most of the pagan cultures, and what they didn't erase they subverted. Pagan is also any religion that isn't abrahamic. If we tried that, people would scream hate and say we were attacking your religion or trying to appropriate it. If there was an attempt to connect Judaism to lotr sure, but this was a theological tangent not a comparison.
Tolkien was a devout Catholic and that is apparent. The Lord of the Rings and all of his legendarium are supposed to take place in OUR world. For Tolkien this means his stories take part in a world compatible with Catholicism. It's just that simple. Yes elves, and Valar, and dwarves and dragons and orcs exist. Yet ultimately he tries as hard as possible and spends hours upon the theology of making this all compatible with Catholicism and also using Old Testament typology for characters like Earendil, Aragorn, Luthien etc.
@Radagast That’s what he explained in Letter 142: The Lord of the Rings is of course a fundamentally religious and Catholic work; unconsciously so at first, but consciously in the revision. That is why I have not put in, or have cut out, practically all references to anything like 'religion', to cults or practices, in the imaginary world. For the religious element is absorbed into the story and the symbolism.
@Radagast I am afraid you just need to read more Tolkien then. He went through great pains to find a suitable origin for the Orcs, which would not make then just an evil race. I can write pages on the stuff. Harry Potter, Wheel of Time, Star Wars, etc They are mainly influenced by pagan ideas. Tolkien's work(whilst not allegory) just like CS Lewis is deeply Christian and Catholic.
It's both. It's external Paganism with coded "Christianity" in it, no matter how much Tolkien denied it or played Mr. Subtle about it. I don't go to church, haven't in 17 years, but it was obvious from the moment I read that thrilling scene in the Akallabeth when Isildur steals the seed from the White Tree...exactly what that represents. Tolkien doesn't even have to say what it is. We all know what it is, and why he had to take it. ( Eucharist ) Only an idiot would have to spell it out for the audience. Tolkien is such a "Mr. Winks at the audience and then denies it."
@Radagast Nah, the Paganism is mere appearance. It's all smoke and mirrors. His gods are like the Hindu mythology vaguely, but they don't behave like Germanic gods at all. They behave like a heavenly choir on Mount Olympus. Tolkien even takes magic away from people based on their "faithfulness" which isn't Pagan at all.
@Radagast If those were Pagan gods, we'd see them interacting with mortals way more than they do. But they never do. It takes an Arthurian character to get even a single "god" to stoop to speak to a mortal man. ( Tuor ) That aint Pagan. That's exclusivist, Biblical. That's the "zealous" attitude of the Hebrew Bible, not the behavior of a Zeus.
@Radagast Zeus had sex with everything and everyone. Yahweh refused to even talk to most people, and when did, he made you talk to his back. It's totally different.
As a lifelong Tolkien enthusiast, I found this video enlightening! The whole story of LOTR and the legendarium is a story of pagans’ progression toward God
Psalm 96:5 “For all the gods of the Gentiles are devils:” 1 Corinthians 10:20 “The things which the heathens sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God.”
Yes 100%. I am disturbed with over praising the pagans as their worship of idols was some how pleasing to God. That being said I agree that we are rational beings and consequently can come to some understandings through pure logic and reason. The pagans were able to do this. I also believe that despite these pagan religions worshipping and being corrupted by demons there are several ideas, which possible came from God showing the pagans 'pictures.' Whether this is from a corruption of Biblical prophecies such as the seed of the woman or visions sent to them pagan myths ultimately do contain some concepts which reflect the truth.
Neither Melkor nor his lieutenant, Sauron, were capable of creation, only corruption. The Valar too could only shape the world to the creator's will. The act of creation remained solely with Eru Ilúvatar, God.
Actually, that's not true. Aulë created the dwarves without the input of Iluvatar. Also, while Iluvatar brought the Song of the Ainur into substantial existence, the thought of creation (the Song) was not directly from Iluvatar. Whereas in Christian theology, it is the very fact that God has an original thought that brings and holds something in existence. So it would not be true to argue that creation in Tolkien's world follows Christian theology.
@@Mr3kiwisNot quite. Aule created their bodies but required the flame imperishable, bestowed by Iluvatar alone. "And the voice of Ilúvatar said to him: 'Why hast thou done this? Why dost thou attempt a thing which thou knowest is beyond thy power and thy authority? For thou hast from me as a gift thy own bring only, and no more; and therefore the creatures of thy hand and mind can live only by that being, moving when thou thinkest to move them, and if thy thought be elsewhere, standing idle. Is that thy desire?'" Melkor only corrupted already existing life into his slaves and minions. Aule, similarly, created an image in the likeness of the Valar but only Iluvatar could breathe spirit into them.
Where did Cristianety come from? From truth....? Where did mythology come from.....also the truth...as in how people it understood inthose times. So they come from the same source!
The films are Filled with Pre Christian Pagan ideology. The storylines are symbolic of a Christian journey and / or quest. There are allusions to Christianity, good and evil and man's search for meaning. It's still pagan.
Such brilliant takes on the early pagans, who in their reverence of the good and the beautiful found themselves at the foot of the Cross, before it was ever even raised with our Lord upon it.
I’d certainly agree that on a esoteric level Paganism and Christianity (when both are purged of errors and mistakes) point to the same Reality. That said, I don’t think that some people give Paganism enough credit. Tolkien clearly thought there was a lot of wisdom in Pagan mythology. And if it’s true (more than likely is) that some Pagan deities like Baal and Molech are Demons, then doesn’t it logically follow that the better Pagan gods such as Hermes or Zeus or Aphrodite would be Angels? I think there’s more nuance here than is generally admitted.
Serious question for Brian: How are you happy while believing that there are people in unfathomable torment forever in hell? How cna you say Christians are happier despite having tha believe? How does that work? Please explain how it works. I very anxiously await your answer PLEASE!!!
The problem comes from your false imagination. The reason people are in hell is because that's what they chose, they are not innocents, they didn't want to be near God. Why should anyone be forced to go to heaven if they don't want to? Some of them are child molesters, some rapists, some mass murderers, and if you ask them if they would rather go to heaven or hell they would reply hell. They don't suffer because God is whipping them, they suffer as a consequence of their own actions. Get this innocent soul that is unfairly tormented for all eternity out of your head and it becomes very easy to see why we can be happy knowing they are where they want to be.
@@Pietrosavr Your concept of Hell as no biblical basis and is rooted in the ideas of Aquinas and CS Lewis. Luke 13:24-27 depicts people in hell wanting ot get out but ostracized by Jesus, who shuts the door from his side, not the other way around.
@@michaelflores9220 That passage doesn't specify that the souls are yet in hell. There are many people who, while in this life, want to go to heaven when they die, don't want to go to hell, and may even believe that they love God. But Christ said, "If you love Me, keep My commandments." (John 14:15) "Not every one who saith to Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of Heaven: but he that doth the will of My Father who is in Heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of Heaven. Many will say to Me in that day: Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Thy name and cast out devils in Thy name and done miracles in Thy name? And then I will profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from Me, ye who work iniquity." (Matthew 7:21-23). If we do not love God truthfully, in our actions, and instead sin against Him, we reject Him, whether we realise it at the time or not. Grace cannot be felt. Only when the time for repentance and action is over and we depart this mortal coil is our rejection of God fixed in our soul for all eternity. After death, that soul that rejected God no longer feels any attraction to Him, which in this life it confused with love of God ("desires kill the slothful: for his hands have refused to work at all" (Proverbs 21:25)); to be in God's presence would be unbearable torture from that point on and the soul willingly goes where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth.
If we're talking about online in right wing circles, then I think a lot are just angry, anti-Christian atheists who are larping pagan. As for the actual neo-pagans I see around in society... yep, also ugh, but for other reasons, hard left, and dirty/drugged up and messed up -_-
@@dominicpardo4783 There are people who believe that existence is a computer simulation. They don't believe in God, much less you. Mythology is part of the process of understanding. As described in the video, The pre-christians are Virgin and post Christian protestants and modernist are the Divorcees The computer simulation people are the Wine Aunties.
I would say that if you are going to argue that God deposited truth within pagan myths, stories and religion then it leads to a subjectivism which is basically incompatible with Christianity.
Considering all mankind descends from Adam, who passed down his knowledge of God, the promise of the Redeemer, etc., it should be no surprise that elements of truth can be found in pagan cultures, in the same way as the account of a worldwide flood remains in many legends as all men are likewise descended from Noah. However, to argue that God inspired pagan religions is altogether different. God does not save anyone *through* false religions, but in spite of them. Extra ecclesia nulla salus.
this guying, your interviewpartner, is in complete denial of gods 1st commandment which states clearly: "do not have other gods beside me" he goes for an intrusive argue, which is simply not the case. dont trust him. there is a wizzard around, and the devil in this epic. yes humans win, but where is god in all this? the winner goes to an unknown realm, and the magician is a true hero. while good priest tell, that magic always resorts to demons. i did magic, i regreted and i tell "stay away from magic in movies and in games"
Consuming a story in which there is a god or god-like creature is not the same as having "other gods" in the way the 10 Commandments decry idolatry. If it was, then reading a news story about the religious practices of a Hindu person would also be idolatry.
Tolkien wrote to this to his friend Robert Murray, who was a priest:
“The Lord of the Rings is of course a fundamentally religious and Catholic work; unconsciously so at first, but consciously in the revision.”
Tolkien was a private person who didn't like people praying too much into the meaning of his work. But Ideally he wanted to create a national epic for England. A Kalevala(the national Finnish epic.) for England. As a Philologist his main area of expertise was the Anglo-Saxons. In fact he was the one who turned me onto Beowulf and great Anglo-Saxon poems like the seafarer and the wanderer. The Balrog is clearly influenced by Beowulf and the poems in the books(not in the movies) are clearly influenced by the Anglo-Saxons.
@@loveandmercy9664 Both of you are correct. Tolkien wanted to make a clearly English fairy tale that hinted towards Christ. The Letters of JRR Tolkien written by the author however, paint a clear picture that Tolkien intended his work to be Catholic and draw people closer to Christ. There is a great BBC Documentary that actually interviews Father Murray. In that documentary, he explains that Tolkien told him that he did not want it to be obviously Christian, like the Divine Comedy is, but English in plain view with parallels to his Traditional Latin Roman Catholic religion. Tolkien's son John actually became a priest.
it is not a fundamentally religious work, not at first and not in revision
@@jediineducation some random guy vs the literal author. I wonder who I will believe
@@jackwalters5506 The issue is that some have difficulty differentiating from "religious work" and "religious propaganda." LoTR is in no way evangelism, and any one of any faith or lack there of can enjoy it fully at face value. But it's still fundamentally religious.
Tolkien wished to provide a mythology for the British Isles as their own mythology had been destroyed (Norman conquest).Tolkien’s Catholicism can’t help but be reflected in his writings!
Tolkien turned me onto Beowulf(Balrog) and kickass Anglo-Saxon poems like the wanderer and the seafarer. The poems in LOTR were influenced by the Anglo-Saxons. The Anglo-Saxons viewed Jesus as a warrior king.
Orthodox England? Church split was in 1054, Norman conquest 1066.
Norman's deposed many of the clergy.
Many Saxon men ended up in Varangian guard in Constantinople afterward...
Also, the men of Gondor reminded me of the plight of the Orthodox lands of Eastern Europe being the buffer zone between the eastern hordes and Europe.
Where?
@@loveandmercy9664 Beowulf is heathen. The Anglo Saxons originally believed in Odin (Woden) and the other Germanic gods. Christianity was forced upon them by evil forces from far off lands.
The sort of people who would accuse Tolkien of paganism are the same sort of people who leave their children devoid of any wonder at the folklore and imagination of culture.
@Radagast Oh I see, you obviously based that claim on, "muh reasons."
@Radagast "Pagan at heart" is such a vague and malleable term that it's basically useless. As a non-Christian myself, I understand the desire to label all of our great European forefathers who happened to be Christian as "pagan at heart," but . . . . just being a cool dude with good ideas, and who maybe likes poetry, nature and/or mystery . . . doesn't make someone a "pagan" in any real sense of the word. Might as well just say they're all "human at heart." Claiming cool Christians as "pagan at heart" is the same thing as when the Christians said that anything good, true, and beautiful was inherently Christian, and so Socrates was "Christian at heart." Just as silly.
@Radagast Your paragraph is difficult to read. I would agree fundamentally with it in a manner of speaking, but if you’re saying that the Asatru gods and Irish/Celtic gods are equivalent to the pagans outside of the original Christian communities in the Bible, then I would disagree entirely. The Catholic Church saw them as pagans, but that’s using the common definition of pagan now seeing as they weren’t surrounding the Christian communities originally.
Also as someone who is Catholic, I agree with you that Tolkien’s books are more inspired by pagan mythology than Catholicism, but I would disagree that he was a pagan. In any manner of speaking.
Your bias is leaking through your pfp.
@Radagast Firstly, all one has to do is look at your profile picture and account to see how biased you are. You even already said the paganism, “resonates with me most.”
I never died paganism in his heritage. All of us (whom are of European descent) have “paganism” in our heritage. But obviously we don’t live in pagan cutler now, (THANK CHRIST) and nor did JRR Tolkien.
I have not heard one serious scholar claim that we are currently under the influence of pagan culture. I’ve heard secular scholars claim we are under the influence of Christian culture however.
As someone who is a polymath, with culture, history, and Religion being my favorite subjects, I only need to know a tidbit about the pagan religions that influenced Tolkien’s books to know that he isn’t a “pagan”. I mean he obviously was most interested in Asatru and Celtic gods which weren’t AngloSaxon. Druidic gods weren’t Germanic and were believed majorly on the west side of the Rhein.
Seeing as Tolkien was of English/German descent, his genetic heritage would not have been made up of much Brythonic blood.
Regardless, there are only small remnants of pagan culture like days of weeks in Germanic and Romance languages, and holidays. Our moral system of course comes from Christian culture. And our concept of art and science is definitely Christian. Absorbing all things that are good has been part of Christian culture for 2000 years.
@Radagast Also, I am a lazy replier, so there’s no telling when I’ll respond next.
I believe C.S. Lewis said it best in the chronicles of Narnia: "The deeper magic"
One of the earliest church we have the Dura-Europas house church in Syria(tragically destroyed by IS) from the 2nd century has pagan influenced art with Christian motifs replaced with Christian ones. Like instead of Hermes carrying a lamb its Jesus. Or when the Norse started to convert you have the Stave church which is an old Norse temple turned into a church. Both super beautiful. Even here in Canada the Jesuit Jean Le Bruf took a Huron Hymn and adapted into a Christmas Carol called the Huron Carol. Canada's oldest Christmas Carol. There's also the Book of Kells and Gargoyles.
Imho, LOTR is written by a Catholic trying to convey a Christian message leveraging the mythical genre of literature.
En si lo que tu resumes como catolicos su mombre completo es Cristianos Catolicos Apostolicos Romanos y son mas antiguos por muchos siglos que los Protestantes
LOTR is a pagan story, with pagan metaphysics, set in a pagan world. Nothing about it is Christian
@@crushinnihilism Apparently LOTR is a pagan story, at first glance. But intelligent and inquisitive people have discovered the hidden and implied Christian message the author has embedded in it.
@borrico1965 it's a pagan story. Pagan myth. Pagan ideals in a pagan world with Pagan Gods. Gandalf is quite literally Odin.
These inquisitive people have never read any of the Eddas. They havnt read the Sagas. They havnt read Greek myth. The clearly havnt touched Plato.
It appears Christian to those who have never read the myths and philosophy of the pagan world, literature Tolkien was familiar with
Both! It is a rich tapestry of a blended heritage, worth celebrating.
That’s a very Catholic answer (both/and), my friend 😇
Fun Fact: Tolkien actually contributed to the Jerusalem Bible Translation.
yes, the Book of Jonah for the English translation. However, most rad trads out there don't like the Jerusalem Bible Translation. According to these "gate keepers" of the faith, its too dynamic, even though it was translated by Dominicans monks and other scholars at the École Biblique in Jerusalem.
@Adria Ford ya ya...check under your bed Baal might be there?
He was also a great scholar of Beowulf and used to do public readings of it.
☝️🤲En si la Biblia de Jerusalem nace de la Biblia de los Cristianos Catolicos Apostolicos Romanos.Ya que el emperador Romano Costantino I el primer emperador Cristiano en Europa, fue el que encargo buscar todos los libros de los Apostoles para hacer solo un solo libro e hay la biblia.
Y su madre la Emperatriz Helena fue la que guardo los clavos y cruz de Cristo, era Cristiana y conocia en persona a los Apostoles cuando estubieron en Roma.
Muchos siglos despues nacerian los Protestabtes que se desprenden de los Cristianos Catolicos Apostolicos Romanos. Y los protestantes sacaron algunos libros de la Biblia de los Cristianos Catolicos Romana.
He Brian, did you hear about the renovations coming to Notre Dame cathedral in France? If so, can you make a video about it? Thanks! God bless.
I read something about changing plans that would turn Notre Dame into some sort of dystopian "Disney-fied" attraction and cannot find any sources that elaborate on this possibility. My heart sank when i read it. God please don't let this happen.
@@seanbogs why does it matter if it does does not?
I realize I'm probably mostly preaching to the choir here but...
1. People need to realize that all human cultures are a mixture of three things, humanity, angelic influence, and demonic influence. The fact that something came from a "pagan" culture basically doesn't mean anything regarding whether that thing is true, good, and beautiful. Each thing has to be judged on it's own merits. This is the same logical fallacy as dismissing a statement because of who said it. You don't dismiss something simply because of who said it, you judge it on it's own merits and dismiss it only if it is not true.
Now, who said something may give you reason to be more suspicious and there is nothing wrong with that. Likewise, we may want to look closely that things that come from pagan cultures, but that's not the same thing as just condemning them all out of hand.
2. Most people aren't really aware of this, but there is something in the Old Testament called the "divine council" which is essentially the court of heaven where God sits as the King and he has other members of the divine council who are advisors, but also he established them to govern the nations of the earth. This parallels the pantheons of many pagan cultures more closely than many Christians are comfortable with. However, the key difference is that God is eternal, uncreated, and completely unique in kind, where as the other members of the council are created, finite, and not unique in kind.
Most people today would call these "angels" as that has become the generic term for all celestial beings that are not God. However, in the OT they were called "the sons of God" and also were referred to as elohim (small g "gods").
The OT also makes clear that many of these members of the divine council fell and became "fallen angels" they are "principalities and powers" that St. Paul talks about in the New Testament.
You can see a glimpse into how all this works in the book of Daniel when the Angel Gabriel shows up to answer Daniel's prayers. He tells Daniel that God sent him on the very first day when Daniel began to pray, but that the "Prince of Persia" resisted him for 21 days and then Michael the Prince of God's people came to aid Gabriel and as a result, Gabriel was able to get through. Then he says that he must now return to the fight because the Prince of Greece is also coming to fight with them.
What this shows is, first of all, that it is not unbiblical or unchristian to admit that there really are other gods, as long it is understood that they are not the same type of being as God, and that they are created finite beings. Thus the idea of the Valar is not just a pagan idea, it is also a biblical idea.
This also shows that in every culture there are both demonic principalities that are twisting the truth, and also angelic powers that are wrestling with them to inspire truth.
3. I am relatively confident in saying that the most demonically inspired culture in human history is Post-Modernism. I'd be tempted to say the second most demonically inspired is Modernism. Both of these were born out of ostensibly "Christian" culture of western civilization. More over, most of the Christians who are upset about paganism in Tolkien and Lewis, are themselves infected by Modernism and/or Post-modernism, which is much worse.
very interesting. could you clarify a little on what you mean post-Modernism and modernism are? When you mention modernism being born out of "christian" culture I am thinking of the more 'woke' or 'new age' ideas (the law of attraction) that have entered some christian churches. I have no trouble seeing how that is demonically inspired but don't really know about what post- modernism would be.
@@hollyslager2883 Sure.
In a general sense modernism can mean the philosophy and worldview of the modern age. The modern age, in historical terms stretches from the 17th century up to the 20th century. However, modern thought had already begun to take over Europe in the 16th century. This line of thinking began as a school of thought in the Universities of Europe known as the Via Moderna or "Modern way". It was contrasted with the Via Antiqua, or Ancient way. The Via Antiqua was the classical Catholic view built off of Catholic theology and the philosophy of Plato and Aristotle as it was adapted by Catholic thinkers from St. Augustine to St. Thomas Aquinas. The Reformation was heavily influenced by the Via Moderna and was in a number of ways born out of modern thought.
There is also more specifically the heresy of Modernism, which is an attempt to alter Catholic doctrine to fit with the philosophy and worldview of the modern age. The heresy of Modernism has been described as the heresy that embraces all other heresies. It is essentially the idea that there are no truths, doctrines, or dogmas that can't be questioned and reevaluated in the context of modern thought. Basically that everything can be changed to make it fit with what the world believes.
Some of the main elements of Modernism in the more general sense are Materialism (the idea that only the physical world exists and there is no supernatural). Reductionism, which holds that in order to understand things we have to beak them down to their most simple form. This has also been called "nothing but-ism" or "only-ism". For example, human beings are only animals. Our mind is nothing but a brain with chemical and electrical impulses. Modernism also generally involves the idea that only that which can be scientifically or mathematically proven can be believed. Thus it limits all forms of thought and inquiry down to only scientific or mathematical thought and inquiry.
Modernism is most clearly evident in the enlightenment philosophy of the 18th and 19th centuries. The so called "Age of Reason".
Post-modernism is a philosophy that began in the 19th century and became popular up through the 20th century. It began taking over from Modernism probably mostly in the second half of the 20th century up to our current day. It is mostly dominant now, but there are still some hangers on from Modernism.
Post-modernism is heavily characterized by the denial of objective meaning and truth. The driving force of Post-modernism is the idea of radical freedom and self-determination. In other words, you are completely free to be and to do whatever you want. All claims of truth, morality, and so on are simply attempts of the power structures of society to oppress you. In this view, all claims of truth and the like are simply the power structure that the dominant ruling class uses to keep everyone else in line.
It denies that you have any predetermined identity (like a destiny from God, or even a nature given by God) because those things would place demands on you, and would prevent you from being whatever you want to be.
Post-Modernism is the origin and intellectual force behind woke culture and all of the things like hating the patriarchy, and so on.
In short, Modernism denied universal non-physical truths. It held that all truth must be found by inquiry into the natural world (empiricism) or by purely rational inquiry (rationalism).
Modernism failed to deliver on its promises of enlightenment however, which lead philosophers to begin to doubt our ability to know anything at all. This began the birth of Post-Modernism.
Post-Modernism becomes full grown with the idea that not only can we not know anything objectively, but we can't even communicate objectively because words themselves don't have objective meaning. In other words, Truth cannot be known, the only "truth" is whatever truth you invent for yourself, and language itself is neither true, nor false.. words don't mean, they simply are.
Does that help?
@@joshuacooley1417 we simply can't forget what this thought movement has done to our ruling class the corrupt grabbing of powers beyond their rights as fellow catholics. By catholics I mean everyone on this planet because lest we forget we all share the same God even if there are a great many that don't believe we do so. Secret societies and lust of power really twisted men and women to horrendous acts of heresy in the post modern Era to present day. Lest we forget the wrongdoings of our holy church fathers who have been abusing power over our texts for far too long.
@@hollyslager2883 Modernism: Descartes, Spinoza, Leibnitz, Hume, Kant, Hegel
Postmodernism: Kierkegaard, Nietzsche, Marx, Sartre
I'm hesitant to put contemporary thinkers in the same bucket as those postmodern philosophers.
@@joshuacooley1417 Thank you this does help.
I've been reading Matthew Milliner's the everlasting people which explorers the writings of G.K. Chesterton and the First Nations of North America and its fantastic. Tolkien had a interest in First Nations in First Nations culture and mythology as well.
"with their “bows and arrows … and strange languages, and glimpses of an archaic mode of life, and, above all, forests”
Tolkien
There are genuine college theology courses that have a dedicated portion in the curriculum about this, dissecting every aspect of its Catholic roots in the story. I've known about this simple connection since I was 12 when first hearing about it in middle school Religion class. While bringing up the point itself is interesting, it's hard to refute that a story based off of the human experience may come into similarity with other stories based off of human experience, whether it be Catholic or Pegan in origin. Other comments have even mentioned that he didn't even intend its Catholic similarity in the first place. But the fact that he noticed the similarities to Catholicism in particular and committed to it is a strong point in and of itself that cannot be ignored.
Tolkein was very well-educated in his own theology and knew what he was doing. I always get the vibe from your videos (which, truth be told, I have not seen very many of, so I may be misunderstanding where you're coming from a bit) that you lack a fundamental understanding on certain topics.
While I commend you for reaching out to explore alternative and typically controversial discussion more thoroughly, it surprises me that you, a Catholic convert, wouldn't first explore the Catholic teaching portion first (an understanding that you're still learning), gaining a comprehensive understanding of it, doing the research into its source (particularly in this instance where we have a clear view and knowledge of its source), and *then* putting things into question with your recently gained knowledge to then draw conclusions from.
It instead seems like you go into well-established teachings, put those teachings into question, and then explore on your own to then draw conclusions from whatever you find and wherever you happen to find it. Just honestly saying, that's just the kind of vibe I get from each and every one of your videos, and that's an easy way to get lost. You can just see from the amount of comments that this information is readily available, already thoroughly dissected, and long well-established.
TL;DR - While I never condemn research into an arguing point (that Tolkein's LotR may have Pegan roots), I will condemn the lack of research into the established notion it's arguing against (that Tolkein's LotR is Catholic), and I only say this so strongly due to the availability of this information.
Best comment I've ever seen on this channel and I agree with every word.
Tolkien is the most deliberate coded illusionist imaginable. He winks at the audience. He's Mr. "I didn't do nothing." And then he totally puts Christian imagery a mile a minute into his Paganism, for anyone who is paying attention.
The great poet Dante, who was a devout Catholic, was greatly influenced by Pagan Greco-Roman mythology. His literary masterpiece, The Divine Comedy's inferno is filled with Pagan elements. His guide and master teacher in the Inferno was non other then the great roman pagan poet, Virgil, which greatly influenced Dante's work and is stated in the Divine Comedy by Dante and he was Catholic! Contrary to popular belief today by the "Gate Keepers of Christianity, the Christian middle-age intellects were greatly influenced by and revered Pagan literature, philosophy and history., e.g. Plato, Aristotle, Homer, Virgil, etc.
Hello Brian…happy to catch you live
Thank you for this discussion, especially for the portion dealing with the ancient vs modern "pagans". It reminded me of my first reading way back in university of Lewis' views when asked on whether he believed the West was reverting to paganism, and he replied (with words to the effect) that we should be rather lucky if it were only that. At least the ancients still believed in natural law and had a concept of eternal Truth. He was right of course; we have descended into something far darker.
I was surprised and pleased to discover that you are a fellow Edmonton resident Mr. Holdsworth. I am really enjoying your channel.
Hi! Since you have made some videos before about Harry Potter before I was thinking if you have noticed.. The similarities in the stories compared to everything going on nowadays.
Because lately I've thinking about Harry Potter books, especially the 5th one. I keep thinking how in the 5th book, Voldemort returns and nobody believes Harry, how everything he says is now considered "false information". How a school teacher even makes him write the "I must not tell lies" with his own blood to his hand..
Politicians, people in the ministry of magic etc are well aware that Voldemort has returned, but they don't want to do anything to help the situation. Some of them won't do anything because they are in denial and scared.
But some of them won't do anything, because those restless times are all they have been waiting for, they want to use the situation to gain more power for themselves. Some people are just evil and want to do bad things.
At the same time they also start to restrict Harry and everyone else in the school, what they can think, say and do. They are trying to keep them clueless, powerless and weak, so that they won't rise up and revolt against "the plan".
Has anyone else noticed the similarities? I've also been thinking have these books left some impression to people who read them as kids. Maybe they are more likely to react to these times like Harry, be brave and stand up for what is right? Even if that makes them a social outcast and even a criminal, in some people's eyes?
Also I'm not a crazy fan of Harry Potter and the stories have their own issues, but for some reason these things have been in my head lately. I did enjoy those stories when I was a child.
While watching the movies relatively recently, the whole part in the fifth one about the Ministry denying Voldemort returning certaingly has that 'fake news/misinformation' vibe to it for sure.
I agree with everything you just said (except that I am a pretty enthusiastic fan. My husband and I spend a lot of time at Hogsmeade and Diagon Alley in Orlando, drinking hot butterbeer and soaking in the ambience). Watching the whole series of films recently was like seeing them with new eyes. Whatever the criticisms against the books (and some are reasonable), I can say with confidence that growing up with them increased my bravery and loyalty. The themes of self-sacrifice for others, true noble friendship, and familial love are so strong in the series.
@@culturecoroner Classical narratives of heroism, tragedy, love and truth. I feel blessed that I grew up with stories like Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings and Star Wars. Same kind of themes and they paved the way for me towards Christianity, slow and unsure as it may be.
@@culturecoroner Yes, I feel the same way! I really looked up to these characters and stories made a lasting memories about bravery, loyalty, importance of friendship, love and forgiving too.
I also love how Harry is so honest, even if it makes him seem crazy in other people's eyes. It is so interesting to hear that other people who also grew up with these books have also noticed these same things in themselves :) And I definitely love these themes in the books, even though I'm not a "crazy fan" haha. Just a regular old fan I guess. My favourite character was always Luna.
I feel like some people are waking up to the fact that the flow of information nowadays is corrupted and compromised, but most people aren’t willing to give up their pet vices in the service of Truth. Most of them don’t even connect the dots between our runaway hedonism and the corruption of information.
The strongest argument against the idea of Tolkien's works as crypto catholic (besides the obvious influence from pagan mythology) comes from the letters he exchanged with his non catholic friends. In a particular letter Tolkien said some ideas shared with his non-catholic friends should be conveid in their works that just a few readers could grasp. And that's it. No more details given.
Tolkien's detractors (from the catholic point of view) use that as a proof of his uncatholicity because, as they claim, one cannot possibly share ideas/values with non catholics and still be catholic.
As far as I see, Tolkien's works are not properly catholic - oppenly apologetic, lets say - but are not a danger for the faithful either.
Sufice to say those who prohibited their children from reading his works are breeding a new generation of militant atheists (much like overstrict fathers breed psychological damaged promiscuous women, I know some very tragic cases...). Not good.
@CJ P. True. But the minority that cares and acts this way have these results.
But he said it himself in Letter 142: The Lord of the Rings is of course a fundamentally religious and Catholic work; unconsciously so at first, but consciously in the revision. That is why I have not put in, or have cut out, practically all references to anything like 'religion', to cults or practices, in the imaginary world. For the religious element is absorbed into the story and the symbolism.
Let's say for the sake of the argument that LOTR was more pagan than Christian (its not, and the evidence in J.R.R. Tolkien's letters and writings about LOTR prove that imo), let us not forget CCC 843 "The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life." This to me points to that even if something is pagan it may still have A light or A truth worth hearing.
It's like when St Peter spent most of his time amongst the gentiles. The modern zeitgeist claims all cultural interactions as a Darwinian materialist struggle. The christian reality is not about stealing from alien cultures but being good neighbours and integrating harmoniously with each other.
5:16 I'll give one example which I didn't get from Lewis or Tolkien.
When my university teacher of Latin poetry (who was also my second father confessor) gave us Aeneid VI, he obviously came to the Cumaean Sibil. He made a very clear reference to the girl from who St. Paul expelled a Sibylline spirit and with mediums of Voodoo to this day.
The majority of the worldview of Catholicism comes directly from Greek & Roman Paganism, with very little coming from the Bible other than the figure of Jesus. Even Mary veneration is fundamentally Pagan practice. Nearly everything about Tolkien’s work is Pagan, even the minimal parts of his work that he viewed and claimed were catholic have their origin in Greco Roman Paganism & not the Bible
It's self-evident that the overarching ethical and moral framework of LOTR is Catholic. Tolkien himself confirmed as much. But you have to work to see it, because Tolkien hated analogy and wasn't about to beat you over the head with something obvious. He wasn't creating Aslan in Narnia. There are at least three Christ-like characters and one Mary-like character, but you can't point to any one of them and say that this person/place/thing is definitively X. That was never Tolkien's intent, and if that's what you're looking for, you'll never find it.
Neat timing, incidentally, as we just finished our annual Thanksgiving weekend LOTR viewing marathon.
LOTR is Tolkien. Aslan and Narnia are from C.S. Lewis-The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe and all that. 😉
It's christianization of pagan tropes. Take Gandalf for example. Tolkien himself stated that Gandalf is 'odinic' in his nature, but at the same time he is place among the spiritual beings of Tolkien's universe is that of an angle, not a god. He is a lower tier angle, who ultimately serves Eru - one, true God
It’s a story - not propaganda (let alone propaganda by allegory) for *any* worldview.
It is strongly influenced by its author’s Catholicism (as he explained on several occasions - but it is strongly influenced by many things in its author’s experience: his expertise in philology, his familiarity with Norse & Finnish mythology, his knowledge of Old English, Finnish, Old Norse, his love of England, his dislike of some kinds of technology, etc.
People who call it pagan do so only because they have not one-hundredth of Tolkien’s wide reading. Christian literature does not consist of the endless spewing of Bible verses.
And thank God for that.
Tolkien’s great error was to write for intelligent & educated adults, people who were not narrow-minded Fundamentalist fanatics.
I watched the entire clip and still didn’t detect the answer. What’s the conclusion?
Ezekiel and the wheel, A talking burning bush, Angels shaped like humans in Sodom and Gomorrah, Giants in the land of Milk and honey, white dove as the holy spirit. I can see many things that Tolkien took from the Bible. Churches also take Pagan designs into their buildings and actually mix them with their traditions.
I believe he once stated the first draught was largely absent of catholisism, but the following he slowly weaved gods truth in this magnum opis of a work.
Actually he stated in a letter that in the rewriting he took away all reference to a religion "into universe" because he became aware of the "ineherent catholicism" of the story. And he didn't weaved anything "religious" in his story, exactly because it didn't need it. He despised the stories "with an agenda" (that's why he didn't like the Narnia series, when Lewis brought it to him).
@@Laurelin70 ah I see, thanks for clearing that up.
I think Tolkien wanted to create a mythology for Britain (or maybe anyone who has an ancestral connection). Despite the fact the Celts have myths, and there are myths held about Camelot, I see most of it as broken stories. There is no over arching unity, like other cultures, the Greeks, the Romans, Norse Gods, etc. As a Christian I think most mythology is pagan. That doesn't mean there are not other elements informing the writing of someone like Professor Tolkien. Professor Tolkien, as a lover of language (especially the Anglo/Saxon) even translated Beowulf, Sir Gawain and the Green Knight, and Perle (ME: Pearl). When I read Beowulf, I see so much of The Hobbit in it, or vice versa. Despite the fact he said he hated allegories, I feel long held, personal beliefs cannot be erased from a work like Lord of the Rings. Professor Tolkien stated he hated allegory. But I see allegories throughout his work. Being a Christian, perhaps I look for them; but I don't think so. I mentioned Beowulf and The Hobbit. The allegories I see there are to each other. Perhaps there are more allegories in The Hobbit than I have noticed as Christian. But The Lord of the Rings is replete with Christian allegory. I mention this to my non-Christian friends, and they get angry. When I explain what I see, they usually don't say much more. As a writer myself, I believe my writing is informed by all my beliefs. Not just Christian.
0:35 It is very helpful to distinguish between Norse myth about gods and Norse legends about heroes.
And Norse legends about heroes are generally very much less pagan, less concerned with gods, than for instance Greek legends about heroes.
The Norse version of Sigurd's story has Odin give him some occasional help, but there is very much less of it than the really intense abetting Athena gives Ulysses in the Odyssey.
It is significant that the one prayer Sigurd and Brynhild do to any kind of god is to the Sun and Moon for powers of healing. And in Norse myth, standard version, Sun and Moon were not gods and had no powers of healing. They were just servants of the gods, like in St. Thomas (Ia P, Q 70, A3, corpus) the angels of heavenly planets are servants of God.
It seems perfectly possible to me that Sigurd and Brynhild were worshipping Apollo and Diana, as Apollo is called Apollon Iater in one quality and Diana is associated with childbirth - very unlike the case with Sun and Moon in Norse Pagan myths about gods.
7:14 St. Augustine _certainly_ thinks Aeneas existed, as well as Romulus, but he likens Romulus to Cain and he considers Aeneas saving a statue of Athena was on a fool's errand.
Read City of God.
8:00 _"the desire for god, we see it in Homer or in Sophocles"_
In fact, Sophocles, after Aeneid VI, is to me the black book of pagan gods in general, and especially Apollo, though the villains in Hippolytus were rather Neptune and Venus.
After seeing Neptune fulfil the request of Theseus to kill his son, I think Neptune was a demon with whom Theseus had a very bad covenant. Ulmo meeting Tuor at Nevrast is less readable to me (but outside LotR!) after I saw this aspect of Neptune. His Mycenaean name being Potei Daon reminds us, he's also the false Canaanaean god Dagon, whose temple Samson overthrew.
as a Trad Catholic I know I SHOULD love LOTR but I found both the books and films as exciting as watching paint dry, would be easy to lose the will to live in fact
The movies suck, but then the only movie that was better than the book is Jaws. As far as the LOTR books, I think you have to have an interest in classic literature and imagination to be able to enjoy them.
I've spent my life perplexed by the parallels of paganism with Christianity. And while I'd love to read Pilgrims Regress, the analogy of pictographs was revolutionary.
5:50 Aristotle and Plato refused to worship in their inner conscience and their teaching before students, gods who fornicated.
It is less clear whether they withdrew worship from the Pythonic spirit who misled people to their ruin at Delphi.
Let's be clear, because Aristotle and Plato point to valuable truth doesn't mean they were necessarily clean, just as with Ulysses - a foreboding of Christ's return, but perhaps even so led by a demon. I really don't know what Athena is, if there even is one single answer.
"All the gods of the gentiles are devils" - the inspired, inerrant word of God (Psalm 95:5)
@@Mr3kiwis It is true in general for things like pagan worship.
Is Pachamama in the movie, if yes its pagan
The pagan 'gods' were demonic entities? Yes! I agree with St Athanasius. However, it seems to me that as we know that God is always bringing good out of evil, anything within the pagan culture that is good, beautiful or true must come from God and is His action within the pagan culture, leading it, as Jonathan says, 'towards Christ'.
Therefore, it is possible at least, that one may take these certain good, beautiful and true elements from a pagan culture and use them in a way that is in conformity to the Gospel. I believe this is what Tolkien has done with his work 'The Lord of the Rings'.
Isn't this also what St Paul did (Acts 17:23), when he proclaimed boldly the Gospel after first referencing and making a holy use (rhetorically) of the statue that the Athenians had erected 'to an unknown God'?
Jonathan's analogy of the difference between the 'virginal' pagan and the 'unfaithful' neo-pagan culture's is also interesting.
We can see that many pagan's were drawn through their attraction to and cooperation with the good, beautiful and true within the pagan culture to finally come into the full light and knowledge of Christ through accepting the Gospel; while the neo-pagan culture has conversely been attracted to and has cooperated with the darkness and has thereby rejected the Gospel and once again succumbed to demonic worship i.e the worship of pagan gods and other forms of idolatry.
It is clear that In the context of the rejection of Christ - any other 'god' is a demon ipso facto. It's as simple as that.
good comment.
Tolkien himself hated analogies, so I believe that he made his story intencionally dubious in order to make fun of people that see analogy in everything
We discuss that in the full interview.
He hated ALLEGORIES, not analogies, because the last are in the reader's freedom, while allegories is the author imposing his beliefs on the reader.
he sure hated writing enjoyable books
@@Laurelin70 exactly-allegory, not analogy. Although, I always found it interesting that he disliked allegory so much yet wrote the best allegorical piece I’ve ever read: Leaf By Niggle.
But he said it himself in Letter 142: The Lord of the Rings is of course a fundamentally religious and Catholic work; unconsciously so at first, but consciously in the revision. That is why I have not put in, or have cut out, practically all references to anything like 'religion', to cults or practices, in the imaginary world. For the religious element is absorbed into the story and the symbolism.
Tolkien was a linguist that translated the The Mabinogion. I think that is a better starting point than Norse or Greek , Saga's and Mythologies
A lot of this also exist in ancient Jewish sources as well for a middle earth. I would say this is universal truth.
What a beautiful analogy!
Like Tolkien wrote in the first book of Lord of the rings (I hope I could retranslate it good back to english): Anything that's interpreted into this story is just interpretation, nothing more.
For me there are more parallels to the time when Tolkien lived and partially wrote the story - the world wars with the giant confrontations worldwide.
Both in a way Tonkin enjoyed pagan stories and usesd elements of them in his works but the core of the story and its themes are inherently catholic in nature.
Wow. That difference between the pagans and neo-pagan blew my mind.
Me too.
Funny to hear
mention of C S Lewis
explanation that all time
is present to God, yet presume
other beliefs from before
the introduction of Christianity
we're not THEMSELVES
DERIVED from information
known before the tower
and flood
Yeah, that's from God. Adam's children knew, and handed it on to their children, but over the generations their children's children walked further and further from God. They still sought Him, though.
I think it's perfect fiction. But I think it is also in terms of texture Norse inspired, but in terms of substance Catholic.
3:02 If God could put allegories of Christ into real life people (like Abraham and Isaac) in the Old Testament, it stands to reason, some of the "pictures" were real life heroes.
I take it Ulysses existed, and that his return, the fidelity of Penelope, and the punishment of the suitors, prefigures the Apocalypse. And did so before the readers of the Odyssey became Christians.
This would stand whether the spiritual entity Ulysses took for Athena was his guardian angel or a demon.
One can also mention, some of the myths of heroes insofar as they feature gods, feature gods showing they are really demons, like Iliad, song I - which I think St. John and many of his audience had in fact read. Apollo is first called Apollyon in that song by Homer.
Is “Neither” an option? Someone correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t Tolkein himself (at least in the introduction to my copy of LOTR) say that the story was not meant to be allegorical for anything? Can an elf just be an elf?
I would say that people who accuse him of Paganism, like the "Gate Keepers" of the Christian faith, are out to lunch, but those that deny any Christian influence in his work are also wrong. He obviously was influenced by both Pagan(Norse) mythology and Christianity, being a devout man. But who cares if he had pagan influences in his stories, they still have Christian elements in them.
Dante who was a devout Catholic was greatly influenced by Pagan Greco-Roman mythology. His literary masterpiece, The Divine Comedy's inferno is filled with Pagan elements. His guide and master teacher in the Inferno was non other then the great roman pagan poet, Virgil, which greatly influenced Dante's work and is stated in the Divine Comedy by Dante and he was Catholic! Contrary to popular belief today, the Christian middle-age intellects were greatly influenced by pagan literature, philosophy and history., e.g. Plato, Aristotle, Homer, Virgil, etc.
@@clattereffect no objection to any of that, but didn’t Tolkein say the following: “I cordially dislike allegory in all its manifestations, and always have done so since I grew old and wary enough to detect its presence. I much prefer history - true or feigned- with its varied applicability to the thought and experience of readers. I think that many confuse applicability with allegory, but the one resides in the freedom of the reader, and the other in the purposed domination of the author." That’s in the intro to my edition of LOTR. It seems to me that - whatever LOTR’s inspirations (and I agree with your opinion of them) - taking it as directly allegorical as some have is going too far. Am I wrong?
Yep, that was the statement of Tolkien, however even if he wasn't intending to give a message, it's very likely that his world view influenced his writing even if he wasn't intending to lecture anyone.
@@Archangel76 Tolkien should have been more circumspect with his generalisation. After all, Holy Scripture is full of allegories -- the allegorical tense is one of the three tenses of Scripture -- so God clearly thinks highly of them.
Lord of the Rings was Alistair Crowley's favourite book....
And?
At the end it dosen't matter if it's catholic or pagan, it stills being a great story
Tolkien did not set out to make pagan propaganda he was a devout Catholic but that is what happened with his book and its imitators, even though Tolkien did not intend this. LOTR was championed by the hippies of the 60s and 70s, almost as their bible this led many to the occult and not to Christianity. Anyone who tries to suggest that this is a Christian allegory is deluding themselves and is not looking at its actual effect on society and it influence on the New Age and the burgeoning of the Occult in the 20th and 21st centuries. It is obviously not the only modern influence on the rise of modern paganism but it is one of the major influences. The themes with its earth powers of white and dark magic cannot be dismissed. Just because white magic wins in the LOTR does not mean that those who practice white magic are aligned with Christianity, I don't believe many people have found Christianity through the LOTR in fact I don't know anyone. But I believe that people found the occult because of the LOTR. So to your question Lord of the Rings - Pagan or Catholic, I'm afraid its Pagan!
Pagan details, Christian themes?
This had almost no relation to Tolkien if we're being honest
So he is basing his interpretation of Tolkiens work on the work of Lewis and adding the narrative that god ( the god of Israel, who wants people beheaded for idolatry) merely came to all these people as the pantheons of gods from ancient Scandinavian cultures. To remind them of the one true God? Because they couldn't read.
But had their own language, built longboats, had all the same weapons and armor.
How does this in any way make sense?
It's easy to sit there and say nice things, but the reality is, the abrahamic faiths genocided most of the pagan cultures, and what they didn't erase they subverted.
Pagan is also any religion that isn't abrahamic.
If we tried that, people would scream hate and say we were attacking your religion or trying to appropriate it.
If there was an attempt to connect Judaism to lotr sure, but this was a theological tangent not a comparison.
Tolkien was a devout Catholic and that is apparent.
The Lord of the Rings and all of his legendarium are supposed to take place in OUR world. For Tolkien this means his stories take part in a world compatible with Catholicism. It's just that simple. Yes elves, and Valar, and dwarves and dragons and orcs exist. Yet ultimately he tries as hard as possible and spends hours upon the theology of making this all compatible with Catholicism and also using Old Testament typology for characters like Earendil, Aragorn, Luthien etc.
@Radagast That’s what he explained in Letter 142: The Lord of the Rings is of course a fundamentally religious and Catholic work; unconsciously so at first, but consciously in the revision. That is why I have not put in, or have cut out, practically all references to anything like 'religion', to cults or practices, in the imaginary world. For the religious element is absorbed into the story and the symbolism.
@Radagast I am afraid you just need to read more Tolkien then. He went through great pains to find a suitable origin for the Orcs, which would not make then just an evil race.
I can write pages on the stuff. Harry Potter, Wheel of Time, Star Wars, etc
They are mainly influenced by pagan ideas. Tolkien's work(whilst not allegory) just like CS Lewis is deeply Christian and Catholic.
@Radagast Then I will leave it up to you to read more Tolkien.
Its Both, like its really not that Controversial, Its Both
It's both. It's external Paganism with coded "Christianity" in it, no matter how much Tolkien denied it or played Mr. Subtle about it. I don't go to church, haven't in 17 years, but it was obvious from the moment I read that thrilling scene in the Akallabeth when Isildur steals the seed from the White Tree...exactly what that represents. Tolkien doesn't even have to say what it is. We all know what it is, and why he had to take it. ( Eucharist ) Only an idiot would have to spell it out for the audience. Tolkien is such a "Mr. Winks at the audience and then denies it."
@Radagast Nah, the Paganism is mere appearance. It's all smoke and mirrors. His gods are like the Hindu mythology vaguely, but they don't behave like Germanic gods at all. They behave like a heavenly choir on Mount Olympus. Tolkien even takes magic away from people based on their "faithfulness" which isn't Pagan at all.
@Radagast If those were Pagan gods, we'd see them interacting with mortals way more than they do. But they never do. It takes an Arthurian character to get even a single "god" to stoop to speak to a mortal man. ( Tuor ) That aint Pagan. That's exclusivist, Biblical. That's the "zealous" attitude of the Hebrew Bible, not the behavior of a Zeus.
@Radagast Zeus had sex with everything and everyone. Yahweh refused to even talk to most people, and when did, he made you talk to his back. It's totally different.
As a lifelong Tolkien enthusiast, I found this video enlightening! The whole story of LOTR and the legendarium is a story of pagans’ progression toward God
Psalm 96:5
“For all the gods of the Gentiles are devils:”
1 Corinthians 10:20
“The things which the heathens sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God.”
Yes 100%. I am disturbed with over praising the pagans as their worship of idols was some how pleasing to God.
That being said I agree that we are rational beings and consequently can come to some understandings through pure logic and reason. The pagans were able to do this.
I also believe that despite these pagan religions worshipping and being corrupted by demons there are several ideas, which possible came from God showing the pagans 'pictures.' Whether this is from a corruption of Biblical prophecies such as the seed of the woman or visions sent to them pagan myths ultimately do contain some concepts which reflect the truth.
Yet Pagan kings like Hiram and Cyrus the great financed the first and second temple and a Zoroastrian priest anointed Baby Jesus.
Neither Melkor nor his lieutenant, Sauron, were capable of creation, only corruption. The Valar too could only shape the world to the creator's will. The act of creation remained solely with Eru Ilúvatar, God.
Actually, that's not true. Aulë created the dwarves without the input of Iluvatar.
Also, while Iluvatar brought the Song of the Ainur into substantial existence, the thought of creation (the Song) was not directly from Iluvatar. Whereas in Christian theology, it is the very fact that God has an original thought that brings and holds something in existence.
So it would not be true to argue that creation in Tolkien's world follows Christian theology.
@@Mr3kiwisNot quite. Aule created their bodies but required the flame imperishable, bestowed by Iluvatar alone.
"And the voice of Ilúvatar said to him: 'Why hast thou done this? Why dost thou attempt a thing which thou knowest is beyond thy power and thy authority? For thou hast from me as a gift thy own bring only, and no more; and therefore the creatures of thy hand and mind can live only by that being, moving when thou thinkest to move them, and if thy thought be elsewhere, standing idle. Is that thy desire?'"
Melkor only corrupted already existing life into his slaves and minions. Aule, similarly, created an image in the likeness of the Valar but only Iluvatar could breathe spirit into them.
Where did Cristianety come from? From truth....? Where did mythology come from.....also the truth...as in how people it understood inthose times. So they come from the same source!
Well, given the Sincretism Catholicism is designed to have, BOTH.
Seems like Tolkien was pretty prophetic were living in a real Lord of the rings now!
How much does Joesph Pearse bench? 😅
I like his accent :)
The films are Filled with Pre Christian Pagan ideology.
The storylines are symbolic of a Christian journey and / or quest.
There are allusions to Christianity, good and evil and man's search for meaning.
It's still pagan.
Anyone who thinks it's not Catholic is purely ignorant.
Such brilliant takes on the early pagans, who in their reverence of the good and the beautiful found themselves at the foot of the Cross, before it was ever even raised with our Lord upon it.
Both its a Christian theme in a Pagan world.
EXCELLENT👏👏👏👏👏👏👏
Nice comperison....to bad father (priests) abused some children, so understandable that some people divorced..
I’d certainly agree that on a esoteric level Paganism and Christianity (when both are purged of errors and mistakes) point to the same Reality. That said, I don’t think that some people give Paganism enough credit. Tolkien clearly thought there was a lot of wisdom in Pagan mythology. And if it’s true (more than likely is) that some Pagan deities like Baal and Molech are Demons, then doesn’t it logically follow that the better Pagan gods such as Hermes or Zeus or Aphrodite would be Angels? I think there’s more nuance here than is generally admitted.
Serious question for Brian: How are you happy while believing that there are people in unfathomable torment forever in hell? How cna you say Christians are happier despite having tha believe? How does that work? Please explain how it works. I very anxiously await your answer PLEASE!!!
The problem comes from your false imagination. The reason people are in hell is because that's what they chose, they are not innocents, they didn't want to be near God. Why should anyone be forced to go to heaven if they don't want to? Some of them are child molesters, some rapists, some mass murderers, and if you ask them if they would rather go to heaven or hell they would reply hell. They don't suffer because God is whipping them, they suffer as a consequence of their own actions. Get this innocent soul that is unfairly tormented for all eternity out of your head and it becomes very easy to see why we can be happy knowing they are where they want to be.
@@Pietrosavr Your concept of Hell as no biblical basis and is rooted in the ideas of Aquinas and CS Lewis. Luke 13:24-27 depicts people in hell wanting ot get out but ostracized by Jesus, who shuts the door from his side, not the other way around.
@@michaelflores9220 That passage doesn't specify that the souls are yet in hell. There are many people who, while in this life, want to go to heaven when they die, don't want to go to hell, and may even believe that they love God. But Christ said, "If you love Me, keep My commandments." (John 14:15)
"Not every one who saith to Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of Heaven: but he that doth the will of My Father who is in Heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of Heaven.
Many will say to Me in that day: Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Thy name and cast out devils in Thy name and done miracles in Thy name?
And then I will profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from Me, ye who work iniquity." (Matthew 7:21-23).
If we do not love God truthfully, in our actions, and instead sin against Him, we reject Him, whether we realise it at the time or not. Grace cannot be felt. Only when the time for repentance and action is over and we depart this mortal coil is our rejection of God fixed in our soul for all eternity. After death, that soul that rejected God no longer feels any attraction to Him, which in this life it confused with love of God ("desires kill the slothful: for his hands have refused to work at all" (Proverbs 21:25)); to be in God's presence would be unbearable torture from that point on and the soul willingly goes where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth.
I get the pagan part but, it's not the theme of the story.
I know many neo-pagans. Ugh.
If we're talking about online in right wing circles, then I think a lot are just angry, anti-Christian atheists who are larping pagan. As for the actual neo-pagans I see around in society... yep, also ugh, but for other reasons, hard left, and dirty/drugged up and messed up -_-
Mythology proves Catholism.
@@dominicpardo4783 How is that different than what I said?
@@dominicpardo4783 Prove your existence.
@@dominicpardo4783 There are people who believe that existence is a computer simulation. They don't believe in God, much less you. Mythology is part of the process of understanding. As described in the video, The pre-christians are Virgin and post Christian protestants and modernist are the Divorcees The computer simulation people are the Wine Aunties.
@@dominicpardo4783 You can stop anytime.
False dichotomy
3 Aves for each of you 🌹🌹🌹🙏🏻🌹🌹🌹🙏🏻📿✝️
I would say that if you are going to argue that God deposited truth within pagan myths, stories and religion then it leads to a subjectivism which is basically incompatible with Christianity.
Considering all mankind descends from Adam, who passed down his knowledge of God, the promise of the Redeemer, etc., it should be no surprise that elements of truth can be found in pagan cultures, in the same way as the account of a worldwide flood remains in many legends as all men are likewise descended from Noah.
However, to argue that God inspired pagan religions is altogether different. God does not save anyone *through* false religions, but in spite of them. Extra ecclesia nulla salus.
Pagan...most definitely
Catholic!
Neither, Anglican.
🤣definitely not
this guying, your interviewpartner, is in complete denial of gods 1st commandment which states clearly: "do not have other gods beside me"
he goes for an intrusive argue, which is simply not the case. dont trust him.
there is a wizzard around, and the devil in this epic. yes humans win, but where is god in all this?
the winner goes to an unknown realm, and the magician is a true hero.
while good priest tell, that magic always resorts to demons.
i did magic, i regreted and i tell "stay away from magic in movies and in games"
Consuming a story in which there is a god or god-like creature is not the same as having "other gods" in the way the 10 Commandments decry idolatry. If it was, then reading a news story about the religious practices of a Hindu person would also be idolatry.
not going to listen not worth the time....its fiction.
No no don't make excuses for him, that Tolkien stuff is paganism and must be wiped out for God's sake
nah it's just tedious
Catholicism is indeed paganism.
Makes no sense.
Haha nice try. May the Lord have mercy on you.
No, it's not
It's a Faith and Church founded by Christ and His Apostles