IHOP: A House Divided - Mike Bickle & IHOPKC
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- Опубликовано: 5 мар 2024
- We first addressed the allegations against Mike Bickle with the International House of Prayer on November 7, 2023. You can watch that initial episode here: • How Do We Process the ... . In this second episode, we'll confront the undeniable evidence that has since come to the forefront.
We've interviewed key figures intimately acquainted with Mike Bickle, shedding light on the stark realities of the situation. We'll navigate the complexities of confronting egregious sin and wrongdoing within the Church.
Amidst the turmoil, we'll also witness the armor of God being wielded within the body of Christ, as the church body behind IHOP stands firm in demanding righteousness and accountability. The sword of truth has rightly divided, separating wickedness from the core of a ministry once revered for its devotion to prayer and worship.
As we bear witness to this heartbreaking chapter, let's draw lessons and insights that guide us forward, as we strive to uphold the honor and integrity of the Church in every circumstance.
#remnantradio #ihopkc #mikebickle
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Josh Lewis' Church Kings Fellowship Church
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Michael Miller's Church Reclamation Church
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Still calling balls and strikes. Respect ✊
What does that even meant
@@regularstan6212 Calling the facts as you see them.
@@regularstan6212 it’s a reference to a baseball umpire calling balls and strikes; judging accurately.
Gossip
I'm very aware that umpires are often wrong
Lord have mercy on the American church for building idols of men and lead us to repentance.
This is exactly right. We are the one who make them idols. We repent!!
@@Crimson509 Not saying rapists and those who abuse seats of authority in the church don't need to repent, but we the Church must also repent for making them idols in our lives and letting them stay in power after abuse.
@@pocaiescda frate
@@giuchici4 *Sora ;P
@@pocaiesc do you go to a Romanian church
20 years ago I sinned and got caught. God told me in those terrible days to “Be 100% honest” and “Bear it well.” Meaning to repent and accept people’s anger and even abuse that was heaped on me. I am still shocked at what I did. God was faithful and restored me spiritually and eventually opened up new ministry opportunities for me. Because of my experience I feel compassion on all.
I have a different viewpoint than most.
I have been to IHOP a few times and had incredible encounters with God, but not because of any leadership, just because I was spending time with God and He answered. I am distressed by all of this, but God is Holy and will always expose unrighteousness, even if it seems to delay. Go low and repent if you are in sin! We are all broken. It is worth what you will lose to be right with God.
well said !
@@Seraphina-ElihuI don’t think you understood his post. It wasn’t anything about endorsing ihopKC or not.
@@Seraphina-Elihu All good. You were replying to someone else’s comment so I wasn’t sure within that context whether you were misunderstanding them. Definitely not trying to argue with you or cause your statement “not to stand”.
I appreciate your humility but sounds like you had an event. For Mike it was a lifestyle. There is a difference.
I used to go up there for my husband's soccer tournaments. In about 2014 I went and the conviction of the Holy Spirit fell on me so heavily I had to get on the floor. I didn't understand, but later, I realized I'd been in deception and generally out of control. All that to say, the Lord was trying to bring me into repentance. I'm sure He was moving on people at ihopkc too.
What to do to hold a perpetrator accountable?????? Never heard call the police!!!! How about calling the police about a rapist predator!!!
Still on this video NO ONE SAYS IT - CRIMINAL BEHAVIOR
I remember a time that Lou Engle was on stage and repenting of seeing stuff on TV that was of a lustful nature. Mike immediately made a joke out of it. I remember thinking how strange it was for Mike to detract from Lou's heart to stay pure before God. All of this is heartbreaking and should cause us to implement more accountability in ministry.
Yep I thought the exact same thing
Thankyou guys for your perspectives on what's going on in these huge ministries. I was in a small ministry where things were covered up with the pastors best friend molesting his stepchildren, and the pastor went on to have an affair. Those of who knew were called out from the pulpit as gossipers and even called us witches. I gave my all to jesu for that church and it was devastating. Thank God his faithfulness brought me into a healing place and restored me in of my past abuse and then the churches abuse. If we turn to him, he is faithful to heal all the victims of this in jesus' name. Thankyou for focusing on the sheep being hurt the pastor has had enough of the glory, let God deal with him and focus on the hurt sheep in jesus name.
I thought of that too, if you go back and watch it, it’s very sad to see Mike’s wife on stage and Mike’s response is even more grievous.
Saw that as well - thought it was disturbing and now we know why😮
link
When I was 17 years one of the church leaders sexually abused me and several other young women in our church. When it all came out in the open I was told by church leadership that the perpetrator wanted to apologize to me and other abused women in the church. Then they wanted to brush it under rug so no one else in the church found out what happened. But nothing would be done to the Christian leader who was the abuser. I said to leadership that if there was no accountability for the abuser then he would do it again to some other young women. I was basically told to sit down and shut up. I ended up leaving that church. I wonder how many other women ended up getting sexually abused by this church leader after I left the church. I say shame on the church leaders for not doing more, or anything, to stop this evil man from abusing others. Mike Buckle should be forgiven if and when he truly repents BUT he should not be in church leadership ever again. I overall respect Rick Joyner but strongly disagree with him regarding his stance on restoring these sexual abusers to leadership again.
I am deeply saddened that you experienced abuse at the hands of wicked men. This should have been exposed.
I would also like to emphasize why I cannot respect or agree with Rick Joyner as well. Look at his ministry roots. He will speak of the moravians and how holy they were. That is untrue. If you look at the true history of count zinzendorf and the moravians you will see the perversity. Bringing it all back around to why abuse happens and continues to be supported within certain sects. I pray the Lord heals you completely and that you will be able to expose darkness wherever it may exist!- blessings
Excellent point. I'm so sorry for all you experienced. I think you're right, churches notoriously handle these things so quietly and embrace forgiveness (sweeping things under the rug) over justice/consequences. But the truth is forgiveness and justice go together quite well and should be administered simultaneously. It is completely loving to bring sin to light and administer appropriate consequences. Not doing so doesn't help the abuser or the victim, or the church. And only perpetuates the problem and almost always leads to more people being abused.. it's insane.
So should Paul not been chosen by Jesus? He killed Christians! When a Christian repents they are forgiven with no shame. Only the devil would want to shame a paster from leading ministry for life. Think of what you are saying. How can you judge with so much pride and not see your sin is no better than murder. Character assassination is not your job as a believer.
@@paulmerritt2484 you said two key words in your statement. Christian and repentance. Two things in which this man never acted like or upon. We are told to judge rightly within the church. Paul completely changed and became humble even unto death for the sake of the gospel. Jesus also told us of the qualifications to lead and what disqualifies. Do you mind His name being slandered? What about the state of the church for which Jesus gave His life? Do you think He won’t punish those who do these kinds of things?
@@paulmerritt2484 yea exactly, but read what Paul says about sexual immorality and purity in the church.. he doesn't take it lightly, and he most definitely doesn't condone it, even though he's the 'chief of all sinners'. He strongly condemns it, even more so among elders and leaders. Justice, discernment, purity, holiness are all equally held up WITH forgiveness and grace.
In my opinion, anyone who would manipulate, groom and take advantage of their sheep should NEVER pastor again!!
I agree, but give it time. He’ll be back. His predator self won’t be able to help it.
But sadly proper church governance and discipline has long since bolted, and we're trying to get it back in the stall...
I felt very emotional listening to Sam. It must be hard for a friend of so many years to refuse contact in that way.
I am not, Sam refused to listen to the many years of warning about Bickle and his false teaching, false prophecy and blatant lying. I fear Sam is either just like Bickle or incapable of discernment. He aided in "his friends" atrocities by defending his lying manipulative teaching. Sam is either utterly dumb as a brick to be that ignorant or he himself is a liar.
Sam Storms-“friend” to MB and professional backstabber of former friend, MB.
Unharmed- you only heard one side of that.
Sam Storms has demonstrated that he has zero discernment. No one should ever again listen to him in regard to what he claims to "know" about false teachers.
None of these leaders who have abused their position should ever be reinstated to it again or in a position of leadership again. Regardless of their remorse, track record of therapy, or years they have been away from it.
You are correct, these men should never, ever be restored. When I see a discussion about Bickle's restoration when he hasn't even repented, I really have to wonder about just what is going on here. And when men like Sam Storms claimed publicly, ( with all of that smooth reassuring, fatherly tone that he uses ), that he knew Bickle inside and out, then I think there should be a serious look at him as well. You can't just go on RUclips and apologize about something this serious, and then walk away with the castle still in flames.
SAM STORMS should have known better! C'mon folks, I'm no Einstein, but I could tell Bickle was a problem the very first time that I heard him. This serious lack of Godly discernment needs to be examined before Sam is given anymore of a forum in these churches.
So well done thank you. I am a licensed counselor and Christian and have heard the stories over the years of spiritual, emotional and sexual abuse in the church. Most of it has still never been dealt with the perpetrator is still in their pulpit and bullying people I pray to God that it will be exposed, and cleaned up and that there will be through this process validation for the victims in the shame they’ve gone through. And that humbleness and repentance will enter the church in great measure.🙏🙏🔥
“… Did we not prophesy in your name?… I never knew you”
Amen!! Best comment on here!!
@@wendyhoffman9472 AGREED!
I was thinking about that! So many in that category!
It wasn’t like a little slip of the tongue! It was so intentional on so many fronts that you can’t say well he still has his gift! When you have to turn back to the world in such a Direct Way, God is not working through you anymore! It is the devil who’s working through you! Some Are taking the sin so lightly but God isn’t!
Yes… It Is shocking that professing Christians actually think that God is speaking through those who are living in sin. If there is one word that comes to mind regarding true prophets, it is “consecration”.
Thanks Michael, Michael and Josh! It helps us to see and hear leaders say these things out loud. I love you brothers and am thankful for you.
SURE DOES help us to see & hear things from such trusted leaders!
Ty for your comment. I hope they read it (2wks ago...yeah...I'm way late💁♀️).
He needs to be held accountable in a court of law. People that protect predators aren’t Christians . This is why there are thousands of victims.
Thank you for this video. I was caught up in this “movement.” I had followed IHOPKC and was interested in their teachings from 2010-2021. It made me feel special and like I was a part of something bigger than myself. I am thankful for the reminder that serving God may look more like changing diapers and living a quiet life rather than these huge “moves of God” that puff you up and lead to pride. I am thankful to the Lord for exposing these things.
I was with these people for only a couple years in the 80's. I felt just as you described. In fact I thought KCF was the spearhead of Christianity on earth. Glad I got out. I have known ever since, Bickle is a lunatic and all those "prophets" and all their "prophecies" were and are FALSE!
So many good things with good people and good hearts, tainted by leadership issues and people hiding sin.
after 20-30 years, because the church has been covering up all along.
Well said!
As a former IHOPper (2005-2010) thank you so much for doing this stream. It is so important for people who platformed Mike to do what you are doing and apologise. Darkness must be exposed.
The darkness about Bickle being a false teacher, a false prophet and a liar was exposed decades ago. These guys refused to heed the many warnings and called those who exposed Bickle heresy hunters and people who harm the body of Christ. These people have all been exposed and the heresy hunters have been vindicated. Sadly, the false theology of churches like IHOP blind people to truth and that is why they chase after another spirit and not the Holy Spirit. The "Real Holy Spirit" is not attractive enough for the signs and wonder crowd. Hopefully, more people like me (Ex Pentecostal) are waking up. Pastors who teach sound doctrine like Chris Rosebrough, Bruce Gore and Jeff Durbin to name a few make people like Bickle look like biblical illiterate psychopathic fools. May God open the eyes of all in this remnant video.
Apologize for what? They didn’t know. There’s no reason to apologize
They are apologizing for how his actions hurt the people whose souls they cared for. Leaders take ownership. Some have also recognized that they more defended Mike and kinda opposed the victims instead of truly allowing for due process.
I believe leadership knew about it..
My husband is now with the LORD.. but he was pastor. Yes! Leadership knows what’s going on.
Especially as your spirit filled your spirit can not be around evil coming from this kind behaviors
Very secretive, I’m very sorry.
Ask Sam Storms why he didn't pursue the info regarding Mike and Jane Doe from Mike's "supposed" secretary after his long time previous secretary, Jane, retired. Instead the entire staff rejected her, called her a big mouth and a big baby. Shawn Bolz, Teresa Leigh, Joann McFatter, even Sam's wife together with the rest of the staff would not even smile, speak nor recognize her. Even in 2019 when Sam and his wife, as well as Kirk Bennet, Ed Hackett to name a few and others from that old staff still treated her the same twenty five years later. Why? Because she saw and shared that Mike was having an affair with other women, especially Jane Doe.. Where's the apology to her? Why didn't they save Jane Doe and the others and investigate the info? It could have saved many people tremendous pain and suffering. But "no, let's not even investigate because..." They talk and teach as if they believe in the prophetic but only if you're giving blessings prophetically and only if they're in their circle of so-called prophets. Sam is not telling it all
I come from a family that were victims of an abusive step father who was also in ministry.
My heart goes out to the many families here that lived here.
I want to share that although humans are wicked, God is faithful. It took many years to heal and my other family members are still in long term therapy and healing. I pray that God would heal them and their view of God. That God would do what He does best, redeem the hurting and wounded.
These stories are hard to hear because it does feel very familiar, and yet I share in the hopes that some ounce of my experience will provide some love to the hearts of the hurting.
May God recon with those that wound His own!
Thank you Remnant Radio ❤️ As one who has been connected to IHOP since it’s conception when I was only 8 years old and raised my family in the church for over a decade, many of the people involved I considered spiritual fathers/mothers-the unraveling and questioning has been extremely heavy and disorienting at times. But through the tears and grief I can already see Jesus working, my foundations will never be in a ministry or human man again, only in Jesus and His Word and I will not be shaken. I also have an absolute resolve for reformation in these areas moving forward 😭 Men will fail us, but He never will! 🙌🏻 Even if it’s hard to see- He will work this out for the good of His Church somehow 🙏😭
Yes❤
Amen! There's definitely a silver lining, the Lord is moving us back to the only firm foundation, and there is so much to learn from all this exposure.
He's moving the church to worship him, not anyone but him. It's so painful but so what we sheep need. 😢thankyou Jesus
Go to a church where not everyone is awesome. Great line!
The man you called “Miller” is so humble and compassionate. He has learned wisdom from what he has suffered & seen others suffer. I’m glad he was a part of the discussion.
Basement boy
Yeah we need to be very very careful who we trust even in handling this whole situation. They could be sending very high level handlers that are generationally trained even from the military to have an altered front. I do I'm sure there's some sincere people caught in the wake of all of this but anybody that's the Forefront just be very careful they're most likely not there by accident. Can I ask what's a basement boy I've not heard that particular phrase before. It almost sounds like since there's so many tunnels underneath the Roman Catholic churches that's kind of what you're referring to like an altar boy kind of thing.
@@tamarawolverton3895it’s a loving nickname for Michael Miller- his office was in his basement at his home for a number of years.
@@tamarawolverton3895when they refer to Michael Miller as "Basement Boy" they're referring to when he used to have his computer in the basement at his house, and that's where he would zoom into the show.
One of the critical spiritual gifts is discernment. Sadly these churches, organizations seem devoid of this gift. Red flags went up in my spirit just hearing mention of IHOP. This was years before all these sins came into the open. 😢
"You've already been caught up in a story so much bigger than your own, just by being a disciple of Christ." -Basement Boy
Great word.
Boy, you're right. That's mouthful
Amen!
Yes this is so good!
Billy Graham said in response to Jim Bakker’s moral sin: “this is a warning anyone of us, me included can fall short.”
Amen!
Baker truly repented
@@jimstover5725Baker’s still conning people.
@@1Corinthians2.2how do you know that?
Did my reply get deleted? Billy Graham was a Mason they put his corpse in the Rotunda to honor him. He denied Christ being the only way before Robert Schuler of the Crystal Cathedral in California there's a video on it you can look it up. He helped build and fun Oral Roberts University. There's the all seeing eye on top of the buildings with the pyramid there's sky lights in the shape of a g and a compass. There's no accident there. Plus it is known if you look into it that Billy Graham was funded by the FBI. They did it to keep tabs on converts sometimes they would put them back in the Catholic churches and then on top of that they wanted to cheap in the gospel to just a prayer being said to be reborn. While it always can start with a prayer there's just so much more to it than that. Controlled opposition that's what the devil was up to with Billy Graham.
Thank you all at The Remnant Radio for leading by example with this difficult conversation. JESUS IS KING! 👑✝️🔥
Joel Richardson absolutely called it in how IHOP should have responded and has been one of the few voices of reason throughout this entire saga. 👏
Unfortunately, his ministry, FAI had to deal with a similar situation with the head of their organization literally over the last 4 months. It's been heartbreaking! 🥺 Joel is a good man it seems.
@@BigMamaMyers it took them years to deal with it. JR should preach to his own camp.
Mike Bickle needs to be disqualified from ministry PERMANENTLY.
Love the balance, wisdom, humility that is expressed through RR ministry. Appreciate these interviews and leaders being willing to discuss these things instead of keeping silent. Thank you for calling out abuses. Thank you for being a voice for the hurting in the church.
Friends, thank you. I've been checking back frequently here to see what your responses would be. In all honesty, I cried when I heard you repent of the Kansas City Prophets series, and I did so for two reasons: one, because I'm so grateful for pastors who openly repent of supporting an abuser. But two, because that series did (& honestly STILL) greatly encouraged my faith. I came from a cessationist background & found y'all in a hunger to learn more of the gifts. But The Hero in those stories wasn't Bob Jones or Mike Bickle...the hero was and is Jesus. May He help us to "walk scared". May He deeply comfort everyone who was abused, groomed, and manipulated by Mike and those under his spell.
Yes, the hero is JESUS! 👑
I feel the same way. I have been greatly encouraged by the series about the Kansas City prophets. There are prophecies there that line up with things God has shown me and I got a lot of confirmation from those videos. Regardless, Mikes behaviour cannot be swept under the carpet and his sin needs to be dealt with. I understand why the videos have been removed and I always have a great deal of respect for Remnant Radio for how they handle everything that they do. The whole situation just makes me very sad.
I resent you all for deleting those videos
They strengthened my faith and now I can never see them again .
Your reasoning Is both stupid and unhelpful.
Mike's going down and no one's gonna get drawn back in his web now...
But by taking those videos away from us, you rob the strengthening of our faith .
Wanted to voice my hurt over the videos being gone and it just hurts man because I wanted to show my unbelieving friends
Needed to show them evidence .
@@DAce-vu5ctshow them the Bible. Show them the evidence for Jesus resurrection. You don’t need the so called Kansas City prophets to be what you show your friends. Show them Jesus.
@@shawnmwilsontrust me some of these guys ..
It would have helped ...
I'll find other evidences though you're right
Sorry
I lived in KC from 2007-2022, and I had several friends and acquaintances who were involved in IHOP. Their theology and spiritual abuse started to bother me a long time ago: like trying to speed up Christ's return, having a really expensive "university" that didn't teach any real skills, cost students a crap ton of money, and didn't actually get you any sort of degree at the end that helped them get a job (essentially free labor), and all the prophecy that just did not come true.
I cannot respect people who give out a lot of predictive prophecies that don't come true and go on without skipping a beat without sitting down for a re-evaluation of what's going wrong. What I just mentioned pretty much describes the whole prophecy movement of the last 35 years unfortunately.
I have family seriously involved in ihop & bethel. Thier theology has concerned me for a long time. Insisting hank kunamen & Kat Kur bizarre videos are truth nuggets . Christian delusion is steeped in religious spirits. Convinced that it's biblical.
@@lynnfarley7859 I think it is tragic that anybody could be so gullible as to believe Kat Kerr's claims to have these weekly visits to heaven. Compare the extraordinarily reverent attitude that the Apostle Paul had in 2 Corinthians about one visit to heaven.
@@conceptualclarity I would think that extended visits to the kingdom you'd be healing the sick & raising the dead - they sell books.
The writing was on the wall with Mike Bickle and IHOP right from the start of this ministry. I feel so sorry for the victims of Mike Bickle. I know God will bring peace to their lives and he will get the glory. I’m disappointed in lack of discernment from leaders who propped up Mike Bickle. From the outside, looking in it seemed so obvious something was off with his prophecies, and those who he associated with in Kansas City. Sam Storms himself said Mike Bickle was either telling the truth or he was a demonized pathological liar. There are many others that need to be corrected or just called out, but I’m not confident that will happen.
Agreed. This culture of being upset at the body parts that can rightly discern errors is an issues. Those gifted with teaching can and have seen it for some time.
For many years he has been called out as a liar and a false teacher but these charismatics protected him because they love the false spirit they use so much. They reject the warnings and consider Bickle's false teachings (Which have been consistent lies) somehow credible. God has set them up for the fall and they fell badly as expected. Remnant radio, Sam Storms etc have just had their mount Carmel moment. Charasmatics who claim to be hearing god always are exposed by the one true God. Remnant busted yet again!
Because of the nature of the theology, and emphasis on the “gifted”, over plain-old Scripture, I don’t see anything changing.
@@KristiLEvans1 This may be the course correction.
Agree, it waa sus from the very start even with people who were die hard pro prophacy. I was hearing stuff in the early 2000s from people who were on the staff that was not good.
I’m glad you guys finally addressed this fully. And I understand how those who were involved never saw this coming.
Yet, there have been plenty of persons in the body of Christ who have been calling out red flags since the very beginning. Every one of them was dismissed for one reason or another for decades.
Maybe we should stop labeling everyone with concerns a heresy hunter.
I really appreciate this podcast and addressing this issue. I have often been accused of being a cessationist, etc. because certain pastors have not passed the “smell” test for me. Certain “miracles, dreams and visions” have not passed that test for me at times too. I know I have the gift of discernment and have been told and prophesied that more than forty years ago. All of you have said basically “Christ alone is sufficient”. Amen and halleluiah. This is so true. I really appreciate what Miller said - “You’ve already been caught up in a story so much bigger than your own just by being a disciple of Christ.”
Thank you again. I really enjoy listening to you guys.
many years ago I discovered that the NAR and WOF movement was not biblical so many scriptures taken out of context so many false prophesies I had to repent and leave.
Thinking about Bethel Church with Bill Johnson who was not satisfied and bored with his walk who wanted more and more and all the false teachings he has introduced many new age. This leads me to think about living a quiet simple life trusting in Yeshua and keeping his commandments is best.
Me too
Count Zizendorph research him. That was the puzzle piece that made it all make sense.
Yes! God has taken me out of this nonsense. I thank God he’s showing me false doctrines, false prophets.
@@lrich966 i believe if i recall correctly it was the guys on the RUclips channel "Leaving the message" were exposing him recently.
I want biblical Christianity. The whole thing. Healing the sick. Casting out demons. Cleansing lepers. Raising the dead. That is the promise and I don't settle for less. Many have Holy hunger put there by the Holy Spirit himself for "more"...for a deeper walk with Him and more than what the church is offering. That false teachers come in and exploit that hunger doesn't mean we throw out the supernatural and the spiritual out of our bibles. Let us cling to the truth of the Word...all of it. More, let us cling to the voice of the Good Shepherd and the Spirit of truth who leads us into truth.
Many people were alarmed by him, many sensed he was / is a creep. Many were not believed, but labeled 'unspiritual'... That verse in Colossians is spot on.
Everyone who calls these fake prophets out, ends up being called divisive and judgmental and non Christian like. Individuals have got to stop putting all these false prophets and false teachers on pedestals and Sam Storms, Michael Brown and here on Remnant Radio are guilty of this as well.
This
I’m a Christian & was a victim of r*pe as a teen (thankfully not by someone in the church). But I get nervous & hold my breath when I listen to what leaders have to say about scandals like this because it obviously hits home. Thank you for honoring the victims, calling out the perpetrator & holding leaders who didn’t do the right thing accountable. It means more than you guys can even know ♥️🙏🏽
None were raped. These were consensual adulterous relationships between adults. We don’t know of some much earlier ones are true or not. None of them were current they were over 20 years ago.
@@janets.4384 1: never said they we raped. 2: never said anything about them being current. 3: adultery is adultery my friend 😅 still needs to be called out even if it is consensual. 4: you're clearly here with an agenda, not really to respond to my comment. Have a great rest of your day.
For 12 years Kris V was my pastor - although he was no pastor to any of us little members. He always talks about defending women and he helped destroy some marriages and men because he was so militant against men. And now he’s covering for MB. So many things to say about his teaching and false prophecies, and lack of discernment in being so affirming of Nob Jones etc. All the prophetic history of the last 80 years is garbage. We need the real thing
Exactly! Do people even realize that it’s God that’s helping us to rightly divide the scripture? That it’s God showing us the false doctrines? I thank God he’s bringing us out of there false doctrines! If people want the truth, study his word and stop listening to these leaders that are so out of line! I slowly started coming out from the NAR. Stopped watched many of them as I could see greed, arrogance etc… I saw from my own church how a false prophet and her so called apostolic husband worked! Double lives of corruption! Really made me think what is going on! If you want the truth and pray for discernment, God will show you. I’m still in the process and it hasn’t been easy. But I can see much more clearly! I have to say, as I learn it’s frustrating how many categories people use to believe a certain way, with regards to doctrine! I just pray, Lord teach me. I repent often when things come up what I was involved with. Ie. like giving someone a word! Sadly, so many of us were caught up with false teaching. I don’t want to be one where the Lord says, away I never knew you!
So true, Mary. It’s hard talking with our cessationist brothers and sisters about any of the gifts when they bring up the plethora of confusion from that camp. You know THAT camp. I do believe God still speaks but we have cheapened it, marketed it, and plagiarized it. I think about what God says to Jeremiah about the false prophecies and says “you’ve stolen My words”. And again when Jesus says we’re going to give an account to God for every idle word that we speak. There’s a weight to speaking for God and charismania has missed it. We will be judged.
.@@AdamCrawfordFitness Where's the verses in Jeremiah?
In my 30 ish years as a christian, probably a bit less - I don't know the exact time - I have seen 3 prophecies with substance - out of hundreds directed to me or my spouse. All in the name of we can all prophecy at will, people needing to see that they are doing exciting things in the name of Jesus, and they are more or less addicted to the feeling it gives them to just be in this mass-psychosis as I call it (rather sloppy description).
One of the first times someone came to me with a prophecy for my life it was (summarized): "Life is gonna strike you hard in the face. But do not worry, because God is with you thru all of that."
In this feminist age we don't need pastors who are militant against men.
We must STOP idolizing preachers ,pastors, leaders!!! They get filled with pride & self love
Yep miller. Spot on. A True heart of a leader is to ask what about the victims!
As an Ihopper thank you so much for all your coverage of this. I watched 3 times. It’s so helpful to hear the Body air its thoughts; it’s helping us process and detox here in Kansas City.
How can a man in ministry, commenting about a young woman's looks, to another man in ministry, calling her "cute", *NOT* be inappropriate 🤔 😳 😐 🚩🚩🚩
Exactly! And storms did not bring that up on the round table RUclips with Justin peters and Michael Brown. Shame on him!
My brothers, this is such a blessing to listen to. I know we’ve had disagreements in the past. But I’m truly grateful for you all and so grateful for your candor and your cries out for Justice and anger toward injustice. I’m grateful for you all. May the Lord continue to bless you, in all that you put your hands to. Much love my brothers
Thank you guys. As a woman watching this, your heart for victims is so encouraging. Greetings from Germany.
Sam storms heard Bickle say “isn’t she cute?“ And it was not a warning sign?! Totally inappropriate! Warning sign for sure…
I think it was definitely a red flag 🚩 that’s why he remembers it he just didn’t in his head make that connection!
This was a common thing with Mike, as someone that heard these sorts of things often, it felt like he was saying it in a fatherly sort of way. We would’ve never guessed it was more than that. Ugh
I say women are cute and I'm not out raping them or using power to get access to them .
Women are in fact attractive
Hate to break it to ya.
If you're straight you'll notice
@@korynnevanriper1861Yeah, that's honestly the way he talked in general. Overall, that comment wouldn't have been out of character for him.
all these "prophets" with no discernment of spirits.
🥶
I am not "charismatic" but i Like this channel and have great respect for ya'll, for making this video....One point i would like to make is that it's not just young women who are vulnerable. Young men are as well....Blessings to ya'll....💙
Yes snd people have also come forward reporting damage psychologically for the “long soaking meditation taught at IHOPKC…the hypnotic effect in intentionally putting people in altered states of consciousness with music and then “prophecying” to them in a way that encouraged them to follow Bickle and Edwards. Sick. Bickle had a whole team.
Well done, we do need to talk about this. Much of things like this get pushed aside and not dealt with.
Thank you so very much for this! Michael Miller, thank you for standing up for those who were victimized, for addressing the topic of ‘grooming’, and for calling things as they are. Thank you, also, to Josh & Michael Roundtree! Love you guys!
You guys are an example of taking a courageous stand even when it’s difficult. Thank you May God continue to bless and anoint your families and ministries
Yall have done a quality job on this. My one thing I still struggle with is the concept of so many people who really don’t know facts going to social media to judge, convict and sentence folks before all the facts are truly out. There are those who have real experience with the issues at hand and are whistleblowers, or have honest pain or questions, and I don’t take issue with them questioning or exposing truth. But there are also others who go to social media and it’s clear they don’t really have access to facts but are just feel the need to comment, or rant or gossip…it’s seems unhealthy and flat out unholy. God HELP us find the balance in YOU.
Thanks for doing this episode, it is much appreciated. I had been critical over the disappearance of the video series without comment, so I appreciate your addressing it here. Thanks for you do on the channel and I pray you are able to serve the body for a long time to come.
How did this happen and none of the so called prophets did not see it, did not any of them know this, this is a black eye to all the prophets that were involved
Remember what Miller said, Judas did the same miracles as the other disciples and they did not know.
@@cindiearl9419 The disciples were not claiming God spoke directly to them. This is a very poor argument. It was also before they had the indwelling holy spirit. Peter knew when the couple lied about the couple who lied about giving the whole sale of their house, and they fell down dead.
Morning Star should be under everyone's microscopes right now. They are the cover-up masters for popular charismatic ministries. They're like the scandal clean-up crew.
Yup, helping Todd Bentley garbage.
Yes I didn't know who Rick Joyner was until I started trying to track someone I had been following Lance Wallau. He is on Rick joyner's board. That was in 2012 I learned of Rick Joyner and that he was open about the fact that he was in a secret society in a night of Malta I then knew everybody who ran in any type of circle with him was in the occult. I renounced everything. Rick is over the East Bill Johnson's over the west and Mike Bickle was over Central. They are the highest level occultist in the nation in the deception of the church.
Absolutely. It stood out to me when Sam Storms mentioned that Chris Reed was at Mike Bickle’s house but Sam and Francis Chan were not allowed to meet with Mike. Red flags.
@@tamarawolverton3895
Share that everywhere.
@@tamarawolverton3895Wow. That is chilling. I did not know this.
It’s very difficult for a victim to face their perpetrator. If you have been sexually assaulted call the police or third party to help you.
She was not assaulted. It was consensual.
God is going to continue to expose the spirit of false prophets and religious circuses of manipulation.
Praying for all of those who wanted truth. 🙏
Bickle never called himself, nor is he, a prophet!!!!! It’s obvious you don’t know him.
"You never saw anything that indicated that Mike could be capable of that kind of sin". Oh brother. He's a human. Of course he's capable.
Bad choice of words I think. We are capable as u said. He just would not have thought that MB WOULD do such a thing.
But is that not why leaders of the Church have to be accountable to other leaders.
There are discernment ministers that have been sounding the alarm for years about Mike and others. If only we would be so open to listen and consider their warnings as a grace of God and be thankful for these servants who are so bold and obedient to call out hard to hear truths.
Yeah. But with some it obvious
@@TheCoaster78.. I am watching the video and what I hear being said repeatedly is “I saw a red flag” or “ In retrospect I now look back and think…” I think a question needs to be asked “For those of us close to Mike or knew him what kept us from seeing that there was a problem?”
All are capable of sin. Not all are capable of all kinds of sin. Those with narcissistic personality disorder or antisocial personality disorder, where empathy and compassion for other living creatures has been impaired have the capacity to do things that others could not even think of doing.
i love the heart of these gentlemen. and Miller your love and care for the hurt is so evident. keep contending for the faith, fellas! ❤
Thank you gentlemen. I have always enjoyed your program.
I won't go into detail, but trauma is a challenge to work thru. Repeated trauma, CPTSD destroys one's life and is a lifelong issue.
Thanks so much guys for being so transparent and TRUTHFUL! Thank you for not pulling out the so called MERCY card but holding this perpetrator accountable for this grievious sin!!!
Thank you guys for putting this together. Grim work but necessary.
My question is to all 'prophets': How did anybody of them not see it happen? I guess it will take secular lawyers to confirm what is known.
Prophecy certainly does not make someone omniscient, and it's no evidence by itself. I know some prophetic people who had a "off" feeling about Mike, but that's the extent of it. What can you do with that except pray? Which maybe this exposure is the answer to those prayers.
@@MrLlamajockeyworthwhole answer. Maybe we should pray and investigate because if we don't more women are victimized. Peter had discernment with Ananias and Sophira. What happened to all of the KC schooled prophets?
@@titianmom well again you have to look at the context of the time... There have been several who have had feelings, words, etc. but if you don't have favor or standing, what do you do? Mike would have denied it, the leadership at KC evidently would have denied it. It would have been your young prophetic gift vs Mike Bickle, who, prior to this last year, was known for being solid -- even outside of the charismatic world.
Ive heard (reliably) of some prophetic folks who knew Mike back in the 90s that Mike distanced himself from and pushed out.... It could be he was afraid of that very thing from someone who would have actual standing against him.
That is what is so pathetic. All these men move in prophetic ministry. That is why this is not a 40 year sin. It’s an ugly, wicked sin of the past.
Spot on! None of these fakers hear God. They hear from their imagination and call it God. They use a false spirit and scripture warns of these people who use another spirit and prophecy from their vain imaginations. Every so-called prophet today uses his imagination to hear God. The use the exact same method scripture explains a false prophet uses.
The devil is in everything except our Lord Jesus. This is why chaos brews. Rebuke it all and let Jesus be first in all things you do.
Thank you. "For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God"
Miller I have been a victim of abuse in the church many years ago and I agree with you. I experienced exactly what you have described.
Ok at 1:29 wow… dead on, I feel like young people’s fire for God and desire to do great things for Him gets exploited in this manner… they get lured into places and spaces that offer an opportunity to be “greater than” “more on fire than” etc. but 1:31…I’m so with you on this. I am part of a house of prayer/church that has spent the better part of the last 2 years promoting how “special” and “different” it is from other churches and places because of the prophetic history. It honestly makes my stomach churn every time I hear a message about this on a Sunday. Or a whole sermon trying to convince the congregation that they are forerunners, watchmen on the wall, collectively… solely because there’s a house of prayer attached to the church with prophetic history. I keep asking myself if I’m going crazy or being harsh in thinking this is over the top, and a waste of time watching these leaders try to capture the hearts of the people by prophetic history and hype alone.
Also, thank you for this. This is the best discussion I’ve heard since the day this hit the fan last year. Thank you for sharing what we are all thinking!
No you aren't being too cautious. My former church was also like that, so much pride and so much unhealthy stuff .. pastor was placed on the pedestal, demanding absolute loyalty, and people's subcere desire to serve God was cruelly manipulated. We were the 'forerunnets', 'Gods super special ones' etc.. true breeding ground for narcissism and entitlement, very little foundation of genuine walk w Jesus.
No, you aren’t going crazy. There’s much more beneath the surface. These types of churches can usually be traced back to IHOP. I was feeling the same way and started doing my own research about the church I recently began attending. It turns out the pastor that started this particular network of churches was part of IHOP and had posts on his Facebook with MB stating ‘the last 25 years’ were life changing and how much he loved MB. If you go even further down this rabbit hole you’ll find things that connect even deeper into all of these contemporary churches, especially the ones that constantly talk about revival. In many of them you will find demonic manifestations, spiritual manipulation, new age beliefs and practices, and primarily unbiblical teachings.
Open your Bible and you won’t feel so crazy. It’s our only source of truth. I honestly wish I would have done that more than going and finding out all of the things I’ve learned about the modern Christian churches. Finding a biblical one seems to be more like finding a needle in a haystack.
I totally agree!
we made ministry the end all when, truly, i think it's the family. fathers and mothers, grandmas and grandpas pastoring their own households, not pulpiteers and platformers. simple.
Grateful for you guys. We need voices like yours.
As a man of God I knew used to say, “What one builds in ministry can be destroyed by their lack of character.” Praying for all those that have been affected by this.
I hope if Sam Storms writes a book about all the 'prophetic' history at IHOP and sifts through it, he will include the story of how Paul Cain came to KC - his gay lifestyle with his young male secretary while he was giving Mike Bickle prophetic words and doing ministry. And also Bob Jones and his very questionable behavior when he came to WA state to minister at a Vineyard conference at Lee Bennetts church in Bothell WA. Seriously. There has been 'sin' in this camp for a long time and all the 'prophetic' words should be called into question.
The “ripple” effect for the victims goes beyond them, and to their loved ones as well. They too have grief and shock, needing time and resources to heal. How brave the victims were to come forward.
The same holds true for Mike’s wife, children and relatives and friends. The affects of Mike’s sin and perversion his church as well as ( the big church) who are now skeptical of those in leadership. The “ripple” is extensive. Lord, hear our prayers for this situation.
God bless you all for your committment to holiness and holding the charismatic space accountable. May God give you all wisdom
Thank you guys so much for making this video….. 😢🙏🙏🙏
I so appreciate you guys for standing up for the victims. That's what real shepherds do. 💪
Amen!!!
I really appreciate the clarification on the 2 witnesses verse...my former pastor used that verse when I came to him about being raped. Told me unless there were 2 witnesses, it didn't happen. I asked how one would have a witness to this and he just repeated the verse. I very much felt like there was nothing I could do and couldn't imagine how anyone would have a witness to this. Anyway, thank you!
😢😢😢 I'm so sorry you had to experience that. I know you are strong and have helped many others
So much respect for Allen Hood. I've been in small breakout classes of his at Onething conferences and his fear of the Lord was something that always stood out to me.
The hardest thing in the Christian Life is to keep the balance between doctrine and experience. Also let's not forget the principalities and Powers that are waring against us. Thank you so much for the show. I learn alot from you.
I find something troubling about Sam storms. I’ve seen this in other videos as well, but he tends to default to unless I meet the person unless I discuss with the person I don’t believe anything. Well life doesn’t always work that way. And that kind of attitude can get you into trouble as we saw, in a glaring example of this case. I think you can be so blinded in your attitude towards people that it’s actually a negative instead of a positive positive.
Thank you for this reporting. I specifically want to say thank you for mentioning Dr. Diane Langberg. Her book is so helpful and healing: REDEEMING POWER: Understanding Authority and Abuse in the Church. Everyone from IHOPKC should read it! The scales will fall from their eyes.
Thank you for mentioning this! I have just found her! The BEST I've ever heard on abuse!!
@@AuntBee185 She is a sweet, kind, and most truthful person I’ve ever met. We released her book in Portuguese in Brazil and our channel @livrepressinc has a livestream we did with her, which is incredible! 🕊️
Yes, and "When Narcicissm Comes to Church".
I lost more respect for all the Charismatic apologists over this. One of the strikes I have against the Charismatic Movement, of which I was a part of it most of my life, but no longer, one of my major issues, is that there really is no accountability in Charismatic churches and ministries. There is no viable form of ministry discipline, especially actual disqualification of people in ministry. What does it take for people who disqualify themselves to actually be stopped from engaging in ministry. Bickle should be done for ever. Forever. Why do failed Charismatic ministers keep coming back making light of repentance? I just don't trust any Charismatic ministry. They do not take accountability and discipline seriously. So I want nothing to do with it and its proponents and advocates.
I love your hearts!
I can’t help but wonder how this didn’t come out sooner but, I trust God that there is a reason and thank Him it did come out!!
59:43 What wolf threatened to reveal the underground church. May God have mercy on that mans soul. Maranantha 🕊 🔥
This was refreshingly, yet painfully powerful. Thank you.
At this moment Im loving the constant praise and worship still coming out of IHOP. i shower my home and soul in worship. I am so thankful for all the worshipers who are upholding 24/7 in our nation. I pray more 24/7 will sprout up and uphold YHVH worship; even in the midst of hard times. Bless the hands of the workers. God is training us all in the midst of pain. We must keep praising. God is our healer.
Greatly appreciate this compilation of interviews. One thing I haven’t heard anyone talk about is what did Diane know when. If she assisted in the delusion she should be held accountable too.
Excellent work on a tough, but vital subject. Especially thankful for Miller @ 1:29:43 and his take on Kris V. Thank you.
First and foremost we are to be concerned for the the reputation of Jesus. Not mine, or my ministry.
Well said
Thank you for doing this. I can imagine this would be hard for you all, as you knew him & I can imagine it hurts. I didn’t know Bickle, though sadly I went through a similar situation with a pastor I served under for three years.
I appreciate so much the honest discussion here and the heart for the victims. Miller's emotions in this video has me in tears. My heart breaks for the victims, but also for those who have been hurt and disillusioned by this deception/sin. It also breaks for those who have not given their hearts to Jesus, and are looking at the hypocrisy of those in leadership who have lived lives of sin while preaching repentance to others (but fail to repent themselves), and the shame and dishonor this brings to the Name of Jesus. When, when, when will church leaders realize that their sins WILL find them out.
Even though i am sometimes critical of you guys .. i think i can say that i have not seen anyone that has done as good a job in responding to this crisis, from the original statement till now you guys have been excellent and Christlike..
Josh, Mike and Mike- Thank you for providing a platform for us to grieve this transgress in the church. Now let’s get going to pray, feed the hungry, clothe the naked, house the homeless, care for the widows, and orphans and share the blessed gospel! Matt 24:36 we know not the day or the hour, no time should be wasted!! We shouldn’t give airtime to evil!!!!! In the end we will all stand before God for judgement and He will be just and right. We discern, but He judges. I’m so glad judging is not my responsibility.
Are you saying they shouldn’t be talking about this and that no judgement/discernment should be done (leaving it to God)?
So easy to listen to as their voices are compassionate and honest. Bless you all for this height of Kingdom exposure with Love. God search our hearts!!
Joyner wanting to see Bickle restored shouldn't be a surprise to anyone - look how quick he was to 'restore' Bentley...that went well!
They all wanted too. They all disregarded the warning that Bently was a false teacher and false prophet well before the charismatics woke up. Charismatics only wake up when it is far too late because they all think God talks to them new revelation. They keep getting exposed and they keep trying to defend it.
Rick Joyner is a self-proclaimed night of Malta which is a secret society. He addresses it on his website he is into totems with the hawk on his website Morningstar is a tribute to Satan himself and the star and crescent moon like the Islams is right there on his website as well in his symbology for Morningstar he is a high-level occultist and anybody who he Associates with is in the occult. Everyone he is the stronghold in the East Mike was the stronghold in the middle and Bill Johnson is the stronghold in the west they are responsible for much of the deception in the church.
THANK YOU .. near 30 min, talking about how “movements” can detract from Christ, how being caught up about angelic visitations inflates a person/their/ministry/reputation, and it’s a dangerous road to wander too far down. Narrow path, let’s stay on the narrow path, not get sidetracked into obsession w anyone’s special movement. Thank you…
Thank you for point out these grandiose stories are how young people are manipulated into undying devotion to certain ministries (blinding them to the errors within those ministries, sin wise, theologically, etc)…
we made ministry the end all when, truly, i think it's the family. fathers and mothers, grandmas and grandpas pastoring their own households, not pulpiteers and platformers. simple.
@@su.... Do you mean biological family? If so, that only works for people whose parents/grandparents are believers (and are still alive age wise), so that rules it out for a ton of believers. But if you mean fathers/mothers in the faith who actually shepherd a small enough group of people to know them, yes, a great way to do it.
Hello, I’m from Melbourne, Australia and I’ve experienced such condemnation, finger pointing, false prophecies etc. I feel SICK listening to this because I understand how these church leaders are held up in such high regard by church people it makes me want to VOMIT. I’ve never been that way with church leaders in all my Christian walk.
Truly, these leaders are damaging so many lives. I never want to be prophesied over, forgive me Lord. I will no longer allow a person to lay hands upon me, I’m happy for them to pray for me but the blame that’s put on you when their prayer hasn’t manifested is so harmful. I don’t want to ever go up to the alter for prayer because I need to guard my heart. God has seen it all. I’ve been totally put off the charismatic movement due to the manipulation, stardom they crave for and lack of duty of care, also the lack of the fear of God. It’s so sad.
Sadly true. But we were all groomed by so called leaders to become so dependent on spiritual downloads from then.
I look at my own heart and repent. My God is my Father also. He alone is worthy of all my confidence, all my expectations are of Him. I am to wait on Him. We do not need years to be discipled. Then to walk it out, learn to walk in the Spirit. That should be the normal Christian life. Where we are, in the workplace or at home. We are all full time Christians.
@@heidibrown997 - I totally agree. Sadly, the trauma this manipulation and narcissism, also desire to have so called spiritual fame have left so many Christians traumatised and no longer going to church, rather, do church online.
@@SalwaSamra I use to be a Pentecostal/charismatic nut job like these guys. I am embarrassed that i was so deceived. I too am disgusted in the response i have just witnessed. remnant radio and people like Storms have been warned for a great many years about false teacher and false prophet Bickle. They ignored it because they so desperately cling to false signs and wonders believing they can hear directly new revelation from God. Yet again, their false god never warned them about Bickle only ever praising Bickle. They were ignorant to the warnings by many, they are all derelict in their duty only because they so desperately cling to false theology and a false spirit that leads to deception and not truth. They hear their god from their own imaginations. Thats why they fail upon important issues and that is why they always hurt people. They do not fear God, their god is their own image created in their imaginations based upon previous false teachers who were also sexual deviates and con men.
@@SalwaSamraI understand, feel the same. There is too much influence given to 'altar ministry' without accountability. The ones beibg 'prayed for' would need an advocate to defend us from charlatans and power hungry people. Sadly churches and minustries are full of bullies, who get their energy from lording over others.
I have sometimes rebuked and renounced when I sensed the 'word' was off,but of course that usually gets you more under attack and a barrage of accusations and nasty names 😂 such as rebellious, immature, demonized etc..
that's why I no longer feel free to request prayer from anyone I don't know, I rather ask prayer from friends in similar challenges and hardships, because there is empathy and compassion.
Many folks sensed for years that something was off with IHOP and MB, but of course the argument was 'who do you think you are to question such a man of God' .. well, everyone who truly is a child of God, is quailified to have discernment and our own sense of judgement.
No onr has the right to steal that agency from us.
I hear you. I truly do. But you can’t throw the baby out with the bath water. There are still very mature, loving, compassionate, scripturally honoring and sound charismatics out there. The alternative isn’t biblically honoring, and it is in fact blasphemous-namely, Cessationism.
It's time for Bible-based Christians to consider charismatics the same way we do Catholics: Some are Christians, but the system doesn't promote strong biblical teaching.
This isn't a house of prayer, it's a den of thieves.
Thank you guys so, so much for being vulnerable and prioritizing these conversations. This, to me, is one of the most important things you've done in your beautiful ministry, in my opinion... will win you no street cred, but I do believe this public confessional space (of sorts) will be a jewel in your heavenly crown. More to lay at Jesus' feet in the life to come
Please put on the screen the name of the person speaking in the clip. Thank you.
I am super proud of you guys for coming out with this video. Let’s all pray for these victims and all the families in that church.
Thank you for clarifying the "restored" thing. I listened to the Advocacy Group, and one of them said something to the effect if he had made a public confession and repented that he might be restored to ministry. I think that is preposterous. He is a sexual predator of a 14-year-old! He would have been arrested if the statute of limitations had not run out. Thank you for clarifying that. Restored to Jesus: YES! But restored to a pulpit or leadership. Absolutely not.
This was very helpful! I've been in and out of charismatic/Pentecostal type churches for over 40 years. I've heard a lot of questionable preaching, but I've also heard a lot of biblically sound teaching. We really have to be discerning and understand the Bible and God's word and be in prayer. Like you said, it's a daily walk and we shouldn't strive for power but for obedience.
I came out recently from those you mentioned. Still learning and working through false doctrines. I started to study the NAR, then watched other teachers like Dr Andy Woods. In my city we had very well known prophets who messed up our church. They left Canada to make their money in USA. I knew after the behind the scenes their corruption. I don’t believe there are apostles and prophets now; not saying healing has ceased etc… do your own study and ask The Lord to help you divide the word rightly
Its the same in any denom
I appreciate the apologies. It's really helpful to see leaders be able to admit when they are wrong. Love the distinguishing between restoration to Christ and restoration to ministry and the reminder that a quiet life of faithfulness and worship is itself an extraordinary calling.
Well said, thank you.
Thank you, for standing for the weak and the victims.