What is The Goth Rebel Dream Girl?
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- Опубликовано: 26 авг 2024
- Western animation has had an unspoken tradition featuring a certain archetype of animated girl that has appeared again and again. Now I'd like to go into breaking down one of the most pervasive but unidentified tropes. A little something I call the Goth Rebel Dream Girl.
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Dude, you're confusing animators with character designers and writers. The animators don't create the characters, they usually just make them move.
Writers, animators, and character designers still work together though
Edit: I more so meant they work together to create designs that are appealing, match the character, and are easy to animate. I realize now that that isn’t as relevant to the conversation
THANK YOU *insert Steve Carell meme here*
@@thatcrazynerdgirlproductio4481 Normally, no.
I was thinking that too. But that doesn’t really take away from the main point. You could just as easily replace animator with writer or character designer (or just creators of the show in general) and say they’re the lonely isolated ones trying to portray their dream girl. Idk how accurate the lonely isolated thing is but yeah.
@@kimmybrandt Yes, it does take away the point. Writers and Directors aren't nearly as overworked as an animator and his case is that "overworked people" = "isolated and lonely people" (as if there is any logic to this conclusion).
... And.... therefore, "lonely isolated people" = "potential abuser".
This video is just a mess.
how dare you skip the main goth girl fetish object SHEGO!
the OG goth girl
SERIOUSLY. ALWAYS LOVED SHEGO OVER KIM.
It is very triggering
Tumo Mere i was afraid i was the only one
This is the one chief!
You were so close...
And then...
You weren't
I ruined the 69 likes
@@zenzonerzz4789 and I ruined the 100 likes B(
You monsters!
@@zorlord7507 IM SORRY MY LORD!
@@zenzonerzz4789 You have been forgiven for you sins my child
This guy is a fake.
Animators don’t choose what to design, they’re being told what to animate.
Actually that’s not always the truth. Many animators get the freedom to design what they make. However some larger corporations like Disney give little to no freedom of designing what they desire. But I totally understand what you mean. Often times animators just get a rig to work with, or a prototype sketch to work with that is not originally theirs. But on the flip side, some smaller animation companies allow their animators to have complete freedom over the final design.
Character Designer\Concept artist exist
Everyone: I SLEEP
Animators
Everyone: I`M AWAKE
@@lukedstaten I think you mean character designers, writers, and concept artists (I don't know the specifics)
animators animate, they don't make the designs
Oh yeah... "Rosaline the Vampire Queen". She's on that show: "Enormous Time with Phinious Snake" right?
I THOUGHT I MISHEARD THAT
I need my inhaler
I thought I wasn’t paying attention and I misheard that... omg
yUp
Oh, yes. I like the supporting cast, too: ice cream cone, prissy gum drop, etc.
Nobody else notice he said Roseline instead of Marceline? I don't see anything in the comments about it. It threw me off.
Who's this Marcel Line and why have I never heard of him?
ikr Roseline is the daughter of Quilton
He also called Zoe D's Summer from 50 days as a manic pixie. Like, did you misunderstand the movie or does he not understand what a manic pixie dream girl is?
Trust me i noticed
Sir_trash I hadn't seen anyone say anything in the comments at all
You lost me when you called Marceline "Rosaline"
No seriously I paused the video there and scrolled down just to read the comments. I was already getting iffy but after Marceline's extreme name butchering I will go no further.
To be fair, plenty of girls love these characters to death. So animating them isn't the peoblem, but rather how they get precieved by certain fans
That's also not a problem. Nobody gets hurt when someone draws weird porn of a fictional character.
@@Lilliathi Agreed, it’s way worse when people draw that stuff of real people that haven’t consented to it being made though because that can actually hurt the people involved
@@Lilliathiwell that's lust, still a big difference
You played footage of me animating while talking about sad lonely male animators, does this make me a sad lonely man now? I'll get on eharmony stat, thanks for the tip buddy! (I'm a woman so no offense but you used a weird example for your weird point haha)
@Vivziepop I love your vids!
oof.
Viz, first of all I love your work and I’ve been following you for years.
But I don’t think that he was trying to link your animation process to what he was saying. I think he just needed to have relevant video (ie: animation) to play along during that segment. It wasn’t directed at you. He also wasn’t saying all animators are sad lonely men. Just that there is a trend of isolation and loneliness in the animation industry along with other industries.
I assume he didn’t ask permission to use your video clip though. That’s where he went wrong. Sorry about that. :(
Love you keep up the great work!!!!
Omg ur amazing
yo what? talking about animators being lonely as if somehow animators have complete control over characters. I agree this got really weird.
Thank you.
Yeah around 5 minutes in I’m like “are all animators men?”
Ahha and that animators are the LAST people that get to design the characters! We are just there to make them move bro
@@MS-cv8us not all men are lonely men drawing/animating their dream big titty goth girls, women also draw/animate their buff, tall, deep voiced characters. Art is probably one of the best ways express many feelings that are hard to say out loud.
wait wait wait. did you just call the vampire queen... rosaline? i think you mean Marceline aka Marcy. i hope you mean marceline.
I noticed that too! Plus Mai's name is pronounced "may", not "my". Makes you wonder if he watched the shows at all
C and K Jewels I had to stop it right there 😡
I caught that too...then shortly after he made it VERY clear he has no idea what he's talking about lol
so glad im not getting triggered by such minor mistakes.
C and K Jewels i was hoping someone else heard that as well
I'm very glad to see the comments on this video are all generally in agreement that this video was way off base and turned into some self aggrandizing bullshit about how superior the writer is for not finding goth girls cute. Animators don't choose what characters get added to the shows they work long hours on. Marceline (whose name you got wrong) is not some edgy waifu added by a depressed schmo that's been drawing in-between frames for 70 hours a week, she was written into the show from the very beginning and was a much beloved character for male and female staff of the show. In making that assumption that these characters are created specifically out of fetish fuel desires, you're completely dismissing the intent behind them and diminishing them as characters by just seeing them as sex objects. YOU are the one objectifying the archetype by making that claim. And even then, only assuming sad, lonely men are attracted to the goth girl aesthetic is complete nonsense too considering how characters like these have a huge following in the LGBT community as well. This video is packed with obnoxious generalizations and an undeservedly smug attitude. You say you don't want to shame anyone for liking or creating these characters, but that's all you do for like 3 solid minutes. I don't know if I can even get past the 5 minute mark of this video because every sentence just compounds how absurd this sounds.
EDIT: Alright, now I'm getting to the part with the mental gymnastics trying to correlate goth girl characters with sexual harassment in the animation industry. Fuck this.
That was a mouth full.
Completely agree with you, I tried to watch the whole video but it just gets worse and worse
So much respect for you, this guy is so full of shit. It's been a while since I've been in this comment section (I recall watching the video when it was very new) and it's refreshing to see people are in agreement the video is bullshit.
I started watching the video and started thinking what the hell am I even watching
You fucking nailed it dude!
"Rosaline the Vampire Queen" **record scratch**
Starrphire jazz music stops
@@chickofmusic001 **gasp in Spanish**
Starrphire I THOUGHT I WAS THE ONLY ONE THAT NOTICED
Lmao, I’m sure it was an honest mistake. 😅
Then new fan-art was created that very instant of Marceline's Long Lost Sister. Also she is half robot and has three eyes for some reason.
Rosaline? Do u mean marceline the vampire queen
Thank you! This bothered me so much /:
I could almost hear the record scratch
I didn't even hear it I was so busy being shook about Mei "Mai" atla
I felt offended for my queen
@@LobstertheGiggy It's pronounced like "Mei" or "May" though, regardless of the spelling
So no girl character is allowed to be goth?? Or a rebel?? Or dye their hair??
Also does Wendy from Gravity Falls even fit the "GOTH rebel dream girl"?
But the most important question is who the f is rosaline
no name Rosaline the vampire queen XD
I guess Wendy has the same personality as a a goth dream girl
I don't think Wendy can be classified as goth tbh. I think rebel fits pretty well but a title of Tomboy works better tbh
@@crazyuncleron
yeah the troope of assertive and a bit tomboy kind of girl
This was like reading one of my old essays from university.
started with a good idea, in the end had no direction and went off on about six different tangents with no real credible evidence.
As a kid I wanted to be that goth girl. You don't give enough credit to the subgenres of goth/emo/scene in demanding these characters to see themselves reflected in media in a positive way.
At first, I thought this video was sarcasm or a joke, but then, it derailed into a whole other topic. I was so confused.
JD Everafter I as well.
What topic did it derail into? A Hot Topic?
I’ll leave now
Ok but literally every lesbian has a crush on every one of these characters
Yeah & I'm straight
Untrue. I dislike most of them.
Plus me.
i feel called out
HMMM 🤔
I think the assumption about animators being lonely MEN is way off base, and undermines what could have been an interesting argument...
um
animators don’t choose what they draw if they work for making movies.
The character designers do.
also, not all animator are males.
“Rossaline” lol I missed that episode of Adventure Time
Bro I noticed that too I was pissed
I'M GLAD I'M NOT THE ONLY ONE WHO NOTICED
I just screamed “EXCUSE ME”
I forreal had to replay it to make sure i didnt mishear
I was in shock when I heard that, I thought he was setting up a joke at first but it never came
did he actually say rosaline the vampire queen?
I thought I slipped into a paralel universe
That moment hurt my soul...
I knew I wasn't the only one that heard that
what's wrong? isn't her name Rosaline?
@@Nicbn1 ...... it's Marceline.
What even is this video? Lol.
This is such a superficial overview of the goth archetype. I honestly though this was going to be an in-depth analysis, but once you said “it’s because animators are lonely,” you lost ALL credibility.
I never disliked videos, but you deserve one lol.
Why? I mean drawing is not a social activity per se, is not a outside sport full of people where you are constantly with large group of people
I'm not cartoon animator but I do digital illustration a lot for work and usually you end up spending a lot of time with yourself.
I mean everyone will eventually in their life will feel alone at some point and different people have differents tool to express that lonelyness, and artist have that the resource of art to express it
Sorry the english
1 - I'm not an native speaker
2 - full honesty: I'm really high right now
Wait, I'm really high on monday alone in the studio spending my night working late on an illustration ! (watching youtube is part of the work)
@@francoairaldi6301 yeah, but he was saying that the animators only created the character themselves because they're lonely (basically saying that the only reason someone would create this type of character is to fullfil a fetish of some kind) so he lost credibility by automatically downplaying any characterization
@@francoairaldi6301 It doesn't mean it is the animators fault.
The one who is writing the story for the Goth Rebel Girl is the Director aka the Writer of the story. So blaming the Animators is like blaming the Actors that a movie suck when it is not even their fault.
FluffyPenguin Same
The way he’s talking about these “dream girls” like rebellious girls w alternative senses of style don’t exist... yikes man
Yeah, it's like he's trying to copy the "manic pixie dream girl" criticism without understanding what's wrong with that trope (nothing to do with the manic pixie-ness, it's to do with the character existing only to serve a male character's needs.)
actually, the trope exists because of how feminity is seen as shallow, and these girls aren't like 'other girls'. no, they're cool, fun, laid back, down to earth. while still being very beautiful.
arthrit Or, it could be because alternative people exist. I’m into goth rock myself, and wish to dress that way to express it, and wish to have characters in alternative scenes when I create a comic myself. Goth girls don’t exist because we want to be “not like the other girls”, other people can do what they want, but I know what I like for myself.
The personalities exist also for personality variation as well, we aren’t all the same. If all characters acted the same in media it’d be quite boring.
@@49sr These characters and their prevalence definitely speak to the idea some men have that they don't want One Of The Dumb Or Mean Popular Girls, but a girl who Is Not Like Other Girls. This video makes some...weird generalizations, but the "not like other girls" thing has been going for a good while.
Sushi I’m not denying that the “not like the other girls” is a thing, I’m just saying that this trope isn’t the result of that. I think that would fall into more of the ‘Manic Pixie Dream Girl’ trope than anything.
@@49sr I think this is literally a combination of manic pixie dream girl and Not Like Other Girls
Moose im sorry but these characters pop up everywhere and unproportionally to how many of them exist in rl
Wendy isn't goth. She's a lumberjack.
Her general aesthetic is rather grunge if anything ... So ye not a goth.
Her short-term bf was a goth tho lmao
@@GrayShadowOfNight You're totally right! So, Robby is really the Goth Rebel Dream Girl.
Her personality is what matters.
Shaybay2484 the exact opposite of goth lmao
Yeah, I was going "wot??" lol.
marceline not rosaline. this guy has not done his research and overly generalizes these girls/women
Dude, it's just alt-Manic Pixie Dream girls, this isn't a discovery. Some writers just want a bit less pop and a bit more edge so they make them wear black instead of pink.
Yup it's not that deep to me
This video ended up being 100 times more creepy than I expected it to be.
Ash Kitt Heh
If u used ur brain you wouldn’t 😩
@@rayanbouchaal1653 I used my brain to watch this, and this video was still kinda dumb.
Omg this comment perfectly summed up my experience
Marceline. Marceline the vampire queen.
Vaseline. Vaseline the Vampire Queen.
I literally said the same thing, lol
Maybe, it's Maybelline the vampire queen.
Parcel bean the varsity jean
Fairy Tail 😂😂😂 this should have more likes than the original
Jess isn’t goth neither are Wendy and Marceline.
Yeah, and neither is raven. Her costume is just navy blue, like....
Marc is punk
Did you notice he said Rosaline instead of Marceline
@@toxicmarshmallows6920 yeah i was cooking food,and I just paused like "did he say rosaline?"
Same archetype
Ya' had me for a while, and then ya' didnt buddy.
Uhhh you lost me there. You just assumed that all animators only animate goth or asian because their fetishes
I don't agree with the assumption he made. I think its easier to say that, in reality animators give the audience what they like. There are lots of men and women (idk why adults watch cartoons but they do) who watch cartoons and like to have that sense of adventure in the media they hear, watch or read. So it's easier to get involved with a character that is all action and sass rather than a wimpy guy or girl that just eats soup for 30 minutes out of each episode, jogs each morning, goes to church on sundays, visits the library to brush up on their conversational german and sleeps exactly at eleven each night, whereupon the credits roll into view and the episode ends.
@@greatpower6063 of course people dont want to watch that. The episode you just described is a story with no conflict. Doesnt matter whether it be animation, film or literature a good story needs a conflict in order to people to get interested among many other elements for a story to be considered good. This includes good characters, dialogue and interesting worlds and with animation you can make these elements great. As with animation anything can happen even creating an amazing story that people of all ages watch.
@@greatpower6063 what’s wrong with adults watching cartoons ?
I didn't even understand what he was saying? He lost me at "trying to point out"
I agree with you but your pf shoes that you're just trying to be defensive.
You had me until you started that list. The whole point of the "dream girl" tropes is that they exist to further the development of the main dude in some romantic storyline and don't go through character arcs themselves. So just being goth/punk and female are not enough criteria, regardless of fan art. Raven is a main character, not a supporting character. Marceline is a secondary character, but she was never Finn's love interest. And both of these characters have fleshed-out backstories and personal struggles, and both have went through character arcs. The reason people criticize manic pixie dream girls is because they are shallow characters written to build up the protagonist. If you develop a MPDG, the character stops being an issue... and I'm not sure if a developed MPDG even remains a MPDG. And following the "dream girl" pattern, the same should apply to this trope.
Having said that, good point made at the end.
Marceline definitely started out as a GRDG in the early seasons. Almost every episode she was in had some kind of weird sexual subtext, and she very much was an alternative love-interest for Finn when his more wholesome girls weren't giving him enough attention. And that version of her - the Rebecca Sugar version - is remembered by most to be the definitive best version, for some reason - mostly because of the sex appeal.
Queue Season 5. Adventure Time becomes infinitely better, mostly because Sugar is gone, and Jesse Moynihan is now the driving force of the show. Marceline is an actual character, and her stories become less and less dependent on her sex appeal, and more on her as a character.
Her relationships with Simon and Bonnie are fleshed out, we get into her backstory some more, her stories revolve around her as the central lead instead of a side-character. She hits her peak at the Stakes miniseries, as the show starts to wind down.
He's saying they're less of a MPDG for the characters but more for the animators themselves.
@@unhelpfulrevelations7989 With the artstyle of AT, I can't see there being any sex appeal whatsoever.
That's what anime was originally supposed to be tho, right? Now look what we have, millions of people who nut exclusively to hentai. Besides, Olivia Olsen puts in a lot of effort to sound fuckable.
Like Jackie Lin to Marco -_-
I feel like my iq took a nose dive
Given how you misnamed some of those characters, the fact that some of those characters aren't love interests, and how some of the footage you used as an example of "lonley male animators" are from a female, I'm going to assume research was pretty lax on this one.
Armchair expert extraordinaire.
Hold on. Quinton, is that you?
God this got off topic
more like Hot Topic
Holy shit dude, hen I saw that first comment, I said out loud "more like hot topic" and went to post it but you beat me to it. Nice haha
..Politics.. e___e
The first 1/3 of the video was pretty good but after that point it just turns into propaganda...
Flameoguy fr
I’m sorry but I’m an animator and you are so wrong about so many things. Generally tv shows are commissioned by clients, who pay studios to create the show they want. Everything has to be approved by the client. The character designer designs the characters that the client has to approve. Then the storyboard artist translates the script into an animatic that the animators have to reference off to animate their shots. Everyone has to follow a strict pipeline. Animators don’t have the full control of a show. And we’re definitely not sad and lonely people. Animators are funny and interesting people with rich social lives if they choose to pursue it.
Now I understand how experts feel when some schlub youtuber tries to mansplain what your own area of expertise is like. And I hate the word mansplain. The male animators I work with are all lovely well adjusted people in happy relationships (or contentedly single). The women are not all Manic Pixie Dream Girls with pink and blue hair and a chipper attitude. Dude needs to take a tour of a few studios and actually interview some actual animators.
Sophie G yes this is also true. Ideas come from the clients
Thank you! I was searching through the comments to look if someone pointed that out. I just hate the way he doesn't have his facts straight.
Thank You! I was just about to write pretty much the same thing (Yours is better anyway)!
lex T wow a negative comment on RUclips groundbreaking
Billie Eilish really stole bad guy from Wander Over Yonder huh hahaha
I never knew
I felt myself losing brain cells halfway through the video.
Thankfully I stopped watching halfway through so perhaps I fared better than you did, lol.
Same
Did you call Marceline Rosaline?
Yes, he also said she belongs to a dream girl trope because she has a goth sense of style, which is a laughable misunderstanding of the dream girl trope.
He also mispronounced the word 'Niche' , not to mention 'Mai'
Shocking, in such a thoroughly researched video...
Yeah clearly he was talking about shows he actually isn’t familiar with
I went searching for this comment to like it after I had to rewind and play again to hear it right.
how did obama and sexual assault come into this im so confused
omg my thoughts exactly??
When all you got is a hammer. Everything's a nail.
Because he mistakes considering modern social issues for a facet of party politics.
All the rape and misogyny is just the liberals whipping up drama.
If you can't see a drastic change between the Bush era, Obama era and Trump era you're an idiot.
Because it was under the Obama administration that this was all taking place. Most of what is coming out these days was during the time Obama was in office and even though it doesn’t force people to do these things, it did create a place where if you left wing you’re an upstanding citizen who cares about social equality.
I was on board until the rant about sad and lonely animators. You know characters are usually created by writers first... right?
As an alternative person, I got recommended this video in my feed. Here is what I think:
um. yeah. no
As an also alternative person, I second your claim.
What does an alternative person even mean like a skin for a normal person or what lmao
@@11123fsd it means alternative style, as in (probably but may not include) goth, punk, metalhead, wiccan/pagan/witch, and others that this type of people may feel related to somehow.
As a non alternative person I would still like to agree 100%
@@dojixdoji8955 my thoughts exactly 😂
this vid was ok,
until he started explaining why it exists
And it just fell apart.
Was it just me, or did his explanation feel like a defence of sexual harassment at times?
@@princesscaty6251 I could be wrong and you could be more on point. How I interpreted it was that human isolation and being alone can be mentally unhealthy that could cause people to make poor social decisions, such as grouping a female coworker. I can see why youre asking this question this video made some good points but it's kind of disorganized and probably has two topics that could have been their own separate videos.
" Animators are sad/lonely beings"
Nah, writers pander to a certain demographic of sad and lonely beings. Animators aren't always in control of the things they animate.
I think it's important to know how animations are actually made too. It's not like one creepy lonely guy just decided to pop in a goth chick and oh look it's """Rosaline""" the fetish queen. Characters are created by many people and have many writers. Everyone at the studio is in on the character being created.
well animator can be used as a word to encompass the artists who create these cartoon characters. The character designer would make the designs which would get approved by the director but I took it as he is pointing out that the characters still have a very male-gaze driven influence because they are usually created by a male artist.
@@artedejerie Good point... I would have preferred "Animation Studio" or "Production Heads". Animators themselves just bring to life what's on the storyboard given to them (most always).
This is the first time I saw someone being offensive to:
male animators (by implying they’re all lonely and thus perverts/potential sexual predators),
female animators (by basically ignoring their existence),
victims of sexual harassment (because you see, the predator was lonely boohoo),
the animation industry as a whole (because as we all know, animators can just put whatever random characters they like drawing in the film),
... all at the same time! Kudos man!
Yikes. That’s, uh... that’s an uncomfortable thesis you landed on, there, my dude.
I don't think Lucy Loud is a "Goth Rebel Dream Girl". She's just... a goth.
I mean Wendy isn't a goth at all
She fulfulls the other requirements of being a cool badass spunky girl. Lucy is just grim. I think Luna is a better example.
Same thing with Mai
if LL is your dream girl
Please have a seat over there.
I seem to have struck a nerve. I'm sorry you're offended, I wouldn't want you to feel bad about lusting over an 8 year old. The last thing I want is for a pedophile to feel defensive and cite an inferior culture as being a justification for their disgusting habit. *OwO, what's this?*
Me at the beginning of the video: yea, there is a trend
Me halfway into the video: so this is what they meant in college when they spoke about an essay having no purpose or direction....wtf is happening
Yeah, "The dark side is this is also related to sexual harassment" "But these guys are so lonely uwu". Part of the problem with tropes of any "manic dream girl" is that ultimately they're as much an empty love interest trope as the girl next door or a bombshell type. These shows usually want to show how "rebellious" these girls are but ultimately mostly have them need to be saved by guys or spend all their time thinking about guys. The same problem as manic pixie dream girls- the problem isn't that they're quirky it's that ultimately they are characters written to serve as character development for male main characters. Their internal lives don't matter. I wouldn't necessarily put Jane from Daria in this category because she has a few more dimensions and isn't meant just to be a love interest.
@merchantfan I think this trope would be better done by whoever it was that did the manic pixie girl essay about 500 days of summer that addressed this topic. It falls best into the same realm. This trope tends to also from the perspective seems to come from a place of wanting a girl who is different from "average girls" (a topic in itself), but that plays the same role as the "regular/other girls" while also sometimes seeming to have her own behind-the-scenes plotline (that is apparently not worthy of delving into). Or it's a matter of being someone that isn't just the "same old girl-next-door". It is about creating an alternative fantasy, but a fantasy nonetheless. It's the general objectification of that manic goth girl who is dark and mysterious, has boundaries, but it is to be considered a matter of attractiveness. Think of Forest Gump, but how it was never direct in the portrayal of the life of Jenny (and therefore her perspective) because it is about the main character's perspective forming his understanding of his attraction and what he remembers about Jenny. The girl-next-door who grew up "a good girl". This concept is flipped on its head with the girl who begins her place in the story as an "atypical/outsider" appeal. This attractiveness/fetishization usually develops without considering that the trope could also open the door to the humanization of that person and her story.
Yeah, Pop Culture Detective maybe? He's great and really thorough (though I disagree slightly on his take on violence in cartoons). Or really any other good critic. Lindsey Ellis hasn't been doing tropes for a while but she's also great. It's definitely that they want someone who's "different" (and usually an outcast), but is still very typically attractive under the makeup and still obviously spends a lot of time on her appearance. And they are usually in a love triangle with a stereotypical girly girl who is more often than not revealed to be shallow. Kind of like that "You Belong With Me" music video by Taylor Swift. "She wears HIGH HEELS, I wear SNEAKERS" but we're played by the same actress because ultimately we look the same. Not that we don't need goths in media- but we see SO MANY more heavily goth/alternative girls in cartoons than you actually do in real life.
If I remember correctly an off topic is considered a 0
I think... there are goth rebel girs in cartoons and Mark Hamill wanted one for himself but he blew it? and lobste catcher is catching him in his patheticness?
This took a very offensive turn wtf dude, calling animators "sad and lonely people"??
This is so generalized and poorly researched... Where to start:
-Too many distinct characters lumped into your made up category (What do Wendy and Sam have in common???)
-animators aren't the sole or even main contributors to character designs
-having characters people fantasize over is a whole separate conversation to sexual harassment
-convoluting multiple issues with big leaps on logic (is theorizing that the reason made your BRDG category exists is because of lonely artists) is problematic and reductive.
You really summed up my thoughts on this video quite nicely
Goth/Alternative Female Character: *exists*
This guy: It's only there as a fetish.
The sarcasm is strong
It’s a girl dumbass
If there can be a blonde fetish there can be a goth fetish
i was only in the first minute and i thought your comment was weird and probably uncalled for but then i watched the rest of the video...and....😬
The problem is that their entire character arc and development/lack of such is the _same_ or they're essentially the same thing with different contexts
How is Wendy a goth? She's a country tomboy. Totally different things. - What? Just because a girl talks in a lower vocal register, can fight, and has cringy porn automatically means they're goth? Ludicrous.
you forgot "rebel". Wendy is somewhat "alternative", which goes into the category, in my opinion, of the goth rebel dream girl.
@@jojijojo3566 the fact it encompasses such a large swath of character types seems to just make the trope a useless definition.
@@stevepenn2582 it's not as useless as you think most of the characters have similar personality traits but it is pretty broad.
JoJiJoJo One of the things he listed to be a goth rebel dream girl was to be a love interest but Wendy doesn’t even end up with Dipper. He had to learn to accept that she just doesn’t like him in that way.
@@smolson8471 The thing about love interests isn't that they wind up with the protagonist, it's more that the protagonist is interested in being with love interest.
Okay, but no.
The point of the manic pixie dream girl is that she has no personality. So if you're going to make a companion term focusing as goth and asian girls you can't say that characters with personality and development are included under the term.
”its time for western media do drop the idea the ask an girls need neon streaks of color in their hair to stand out.”
*looks at most anime*
Guess all those people gotta be white, seeing as hair color is on so exclusive on the pale end of things.
The reason they have color is so they can pop out more, it not that they don't look pretty, it's just to add a little drop of color to not only leave an impact on the watcher, but also give off visual hints to the character's personality.
Yes, people dye there hair. It's a thing that exists in this world regularly, even with asians if you can believe it.
Qs-ii it’s also very much not specific to asians, just people with black hair 💀
Still, good design can be thrown out the window a bit when the same look is ever so conveniently put on these girls.
Goddamnit, I came in here so intrigued but this really went off the rails fast. It's like he smoked a fatty in the middle of making this video essay, completely forgot where he was going with it, and just let his mind run wild.
Somebody who's willing to do more research, make a video on this trope, open up a Patreon, and I'll support you. This was a trainwreck.
slimkt Pretty much what I was thinking. There I a severe lack of organization here.
Growing up, I was in love with Raven (Teen Titans), Shego, Vanessa Doofenshmirtz, Ramona Flowers, Lydia Deetz, Jinx (Teen Titans), Sam (Danny Phantom), Marceline, & seldom-mentioned Noodle (Gorillaz) & Tak (Invader Zim) & I always loved Goth culture/subcultures, so I *became* my own Goth Rebel Dream girl.
I will always love those characters & I say keep ‘em coming. We also need more Goth dream boys too.
& who says Starfire (Raven’s emotional opposite) isn’t getting fetishized too? Even lumpy space princess (arguably the least attractive adventure time character) isn’t immune to fetishization.
This is an argument that doesn’t need to be had.
same, this breakdown of a the goth stereotype in media blows chunks
This trope is just made up by the creator of this video. His arguments were weak and they weren't even related to this "so-called trope". One takeway from the video is that there have been less versions of the "Manic Pixie Dream Girl" and I think this is a good thing. Keep the goth, punk, outsiders,etc. coming. We need those.
People who say only a certain type of characters get fetishized are naive, it is as if rule 34 didnt exist
It's a rule of the Internet. Also props for Noodle :3 ruclips.net/video/bSqPj3gdBBw/видео.html
Same, I've always felt more drawn to goth characters
"Animators" being generalised as STRAIGHT MALE - why else would they have waifus as objects of affection?
Comments:
70% Rosaline???!
20% Counter Arguments against claims made in the video
10% I'm so confused why is Obama in this??
As an animator... you do realize that the animator don't actually design the characters, right?? We're work horses. It's the character designer's job.
Also, many many of the female animators fit this archetype. So, take that for what it is.
alethearia ok
Many of the "female animators" are trying to emulate what they think men will like so they fit the archetype.
I mean I feel lonely all the time, but that doesn't mean I sexually harass my co-workers... So maybe the reason is: they have no respect towards women or in general other people's boundaries 🤷 just a guess ya know
👏 👏 👏 👏
@Digicraftmon the Crystal Gem well I didn't say this is animator-specific. At least what I meant was: People who do this have no respect for other people's/ women's boundaries. But I'm kinda over this "What if it's wrong claim" argument anyway.
I’ll be slightly more charitable and say some introverts don’t understand other people’s boundaries, also need to learn how to stop obsessing over people that they are attracted to. A lot of people in general think of themselves as respectful but behave in ways that demonstrates they are either engaged in self-deception about this (it’s the nature of the ego to believe it) or simply cannot see or understand the situation from another person’s perspective (especially where gender is concerned). Biology and society can further hinder such misperception of the self and others. I think the value in spreading what’s being derisively referred to as “wokeness” about this is that it provides more opportunities for people to reassess themselves and the way they relate to others; and also, to provide more opportunities for others to recognize these things and talk about them privately before they get out of hand and start doing damage. I think plenty of people have made remarks without realizing they were harmful, and some have made an effort to change while others refuse to see themselves as having done wrong. Awareness matters, it just doesn’t solve everything because nothing solves everything. The importance of #MeToo is the intersection of demonstrating what behaviors are wrong, showing that it is so commonplace that we (men especially) at least start to seriously self-examine whether we have engaged in such behavior, and the application of consequences to dissuade anyone who starts to think, “well, I’m a really good person, everyone sins, surely one more little transgression can be overlooked, I’ll repent later...”
Have you considered that maybe they were raised to specifically pursue women aggressively because we're (ALL OF US) are taught that you need to pursue your love interest aggresively even if they say no? Stop playing the victim, Stacey, it doesn't fix anything
Don't lie, women are incapable of feeling lonely
"Roseline the vampire queen"
_excuse me what_
The whole point of Scott Pilgrim is that he discovers she has her own luggage/imperfections.
"Rosaline the Vampire Queen"
actingArthropod isn't she a lesbian?
actingArthropod isn't she a lesbian?
Yup, along with Phil the Human, Jack the Dog, and Princess Gumstick.
thank you i was looking for this
I'm still baffled that marceline in any way fits a dream girl trope. She's very clearly her own person with her own motivations and about as far as you can get from the dream girl trope.
This feels like an adult swim video. It makes sense when it starts...
Did a video about the goth gf cartoon trope end up being something comparable to anti mainstream feminism apologism
I don't know where you live, but in my experience I'm used to work with equal amounts of female and male animators. And you know that the animators don't come up with the ideia for the shows, right? they just ANIMATE it... Most animators I know are happily married (me included). How about the LONELY ANIMATOR IN NEED for a trope?
Not all animators are sad misunderstood insecure men. Plenty of women, healthy family men and women work in animation. Regardless, it isn't up to the animators to design or write out how a character behaves. Clearly you didn't do any actual research for this video.
Even better, the clip of the animation being worked on while he's ranting is by Vivziepop, a female animator, and the character is the least sassy one she has.
@@inkypunk "the least sassy one she has" is way too accurate, this comment killed me.
So... he also totally blows over the fact that most of us (especially in media) actually know people like this... some of us ARE rebel gothic chicks.
@@inkypunk are we just going to to gloss over the fact that viv replied to you..?
These are a lot of assumptions
The comments section gives me hope. I can push forward with the character designs my stories need without being overly concerned about utilizing a trope that has become cliche
Yeah go ahead! Make another run of the mill cookie cutter goth girl cliche trope! Go for it dude! Woohoo! Goth up that character design! Yeaha! unstoppableExodia's Goth Talent! Yipee!
SpicyMilk LOL thank you so much for your support Mr milk. Nah but seriously the one character of mine that I was worried might fall too deep into that trope was never intentionally conceived as a goth girl.
The examples this video gives for the trope are very broad. To the extent that it undermines the credibility of what they're trying to convey a little bit. Still it is a trope worth being aware of at the very least, even if whether it has become a cliche is debatable
this video really lacks focus, it feels way too long and rants about off topic stuff way too much
As a SAD AND LONELY ANIMATOR I can confirm we totally make all the choices of the character designs. We basically run the studio ;)
The video was just an excuse to show his bigotry towards lonely men.
The sarcasm is strong with this one.
🤣👏
@@andyisdead the other boys bullied him growing up...
I’m not entirely sure what I just watched, but considering the shallowness of the content, I wouldn’t be offended.
He talks about the archetype of the goth rebel dream girl as if that's a misrepresentation and then goes on to describe the archetype of the sad lonely animator as if it's 100% true and they're a bunch of rapists. Isn't the point of calling out these tropes to prove that not all humans can be boiled down to stereotypes?
He based it off a another trope that he doesn't really understand either. The manic pixie dream girl's primary characteristic is that she solely exists to prop up the lead.
did you just justify harrasment?
This whole video is fucking insane. He goes form the manic pixie dream girl, to sexual harassment, to fucking OBAMA, to some redpill bullshit
Wow you have really low opinions of animators. Yikes.
Alot of comments have already covered some of my objections but I haven't seen anyone else mention this, so I also want to point out that just because some fetish artists on the internet latch onto certain characters doesn't necessarily mean those characters are inherently sexual or were designed with sexual thought in mind AT ALL.
First of all, have you seen what they've done with SONIC THE HEDGEHOG?
It seems like you are casting your net too wide. There definitely seems to be a trend/trope with this type of character, but when it starts to include any female character that you don't deem "typical", or worse, real women, then you've lost me.
Sorry to break it to you pal, but animators have very little input to the kind of characters they animate. Its mostly down to writers and creators. I'm an animator. They say "jump," I say "how high." Its a sad fact. These kinds of choices (the kind of character tropes they portray) are usually down to the big wigs who are several rungs removed from the animator. Our contribution is mostly deciding how a character is going to deliver something, by the time it comes to us, its already been scripted by someone else, voiced, by an actor, and boarded by a board artist, and the Director/Producers/Client has the final say on the look. Sorry Dude.
One little problem, not all animation studios are the same, and as passionate as you may feel for your argument, anecdotal evidence can never prove causation.
I'm an animator,17 years old,I started animating when I was 13. I make all of my own characters and stories. I'm never gonna work for a studio. Maybe I'll make my own. Not everyone animates for others though.
@@spartan11mcxbox no animation studio lets the animators do the script and design
Mainly because that's not their job
That's someone else's part
Only indie animators design characters, if they aren't working alongside someone who does that for them
Kyuuki So you make the blanket statment that "no animation studio lets..." then proceed to make an exception for indie developers. The world is not as black and white as you believe, and you also can't make your own rules and then break them for the sake of your own personal motives.
There are multi-billion dollar companies out there producing animation that break down their resources into isolation, but there are also plenty who don't.
you're right for a lot of animation studios. You don't work for an animation studio saying 'hey I want to create a lot of new characters'. Nope. You're animating 'insert Dreamworks movie here' or 'new tv cartoon here'.
So what you're saying is... 2D>3D?
More like obsession with 2D leads to harassment of 3D.
I'm not sure why you'd think that's true. I'd think obsession with 3D would make 3D harassment more likely. Or just obsession and sexual entitlement in general.
(Also, drawing someone attractive is different from obsession).
I think the complete sentence would be: "Unchecked obsession with a fictional construct can lead to real life harm."
3DPD
Hurt my 2D waifu
I take your fucking laifu
with my new, tactical raifu
3:46 ah yes my favourite character from adventure time, RoSaLiNe tHe vAmPiRe qUeEn
Lost me when he said Rosaline the vampire queen.
This... Oh boy..... gets weird fast
Despacito Daddy FUCKIN SPOILERS
The beginning:a big titty goth gf is everywhere because animators are antisocial
Later on: they just lonely so they harass co-workers but should we let them keep drawing big titty goth gf???
Me:uhhhhhhhh
How you gonna do my girl Marceline like that. She was a really well rounded multidimensional character.
Hahahahaha good one
He called her Rosaline wtf
*Rosaline
Woogs is this relating to the video or do you just not know her name?
*rosaline
Jane from Daria?? Like, have you seen the show?
Shane honestly
like half of the characters he listed don’t even fit the trope, just their physical appearance, and he completely sidetracked with the sexual assault thing.
not even physical apperience cause Wendy is not gothic
This explains why Harley Quinn has so much sex appeal for so many. She's a manic pixie dream girl who dresses like a goth rebel dream girl.
Jesus christ your right! God How did I forget to include her.
She's got more than just the visual traits of the grdg, too. She's straight up a fusion of the two concepts.
@@TonberryShuffle And a good portion of her fanbase fits the GRDG archetype. At least from what I've noticed.
Steel Xcaliber well you’ve cracked the code
It helps that she's attractive and is just a fun character in general, but I guess?
I thought this was gonna be a funny video making fun of an over-done trope. *Got a weird mess of a video instead* :/
Yea it got off topic alot ;v;
Yeah but learning about it is cool still
Sinister Studios good thing I decided not to watch it after reading the comments 😂
jeez. seems Lobster Magnet cultivates the wrong crowd.
I thought is was very thoughtful and provocative.
Also btw sailor moon, Inuyasha and Ranma 1/2 where created by woman and it gets sexualized aswell... explain this?
"I'm not here to generalise and diss these characters and the associated trend, but that's EXACTLY what I'm going to do with my every effort."
I feel like there's a whole lot of projecting happening here
anti male low lives love to project and attack other men
I was just thinking that! Like who hurt you and got you all triggered or are you just literally looking for something to be offended over?
Noah Landrum but he’s right lmao. There’s a lot of sexual harassment of women going on in a lot of different fields and it partially has to do with some men feeling that they are entitled to their very own dream girl waifu
The problem aren't the fantasies, it's ok to dreams of any nature. The problem is confusing them with reality. I don't think that's a difficult lesson to learn.
@@satan4518 Guy, these aren't dream girls they are real people. And sexual harassment isn't a girl issue it's a human one.
I was ready for a nice balanced critique on a new emerging trope but instead we just got the implication that all animators are thirsty loners, nice.
Tbh
its true tho
There were many examples...but we gotta say "BUT NOT ALL". Like, this isn't about you. Good for you for not being creepy I guess.
It’s true lmfao
Basic knowledge
Dude straight up described me and I'm here to say..
no.
My recommendations r becoming more and more weird every single day..
Dude there are like 15 female characters in Total Drama, of course they are going to include a goth punk rebel girl or else they would all be the same.
Are you aware that those type of girls actually exist in real life? Is not so weird for them to be portayed in cartoons.
It's not that deep fam.
WinterWake WHAT!! Dawn doesn’t exist in real live? Guess i‘ll die then
Yeah, they exist
But they are rare
And even rarer for one of them to like "you" back
*A rare specimen indeed*
Well that went way too far way too fast and I literally learned nothing about the trope :/
Your brain is probably too slow to process all the information, it’s not the video’s fault. Maybe you should read more, you would benefit from your brain cells multiplying.
yeah well, maybe watch it again?
@@Azlokeus tbf he literally spent like a minute on what the trope is and then the rest of the video on other crap
@@Azlokeus the vid wasn't even about the trope lol it's just 16 minutes of "lonely people have fantasies that aren't achievable and resort to rape and rape is bad so don't rape mkay" i mean its cool and all but pretty misleading with the title and thumbnail
Alexis Price
Well this video didn’t help me out too much with my lack of brain cells. If anything I lost some brain cells watching it.
Idk. As a woman, I like seeing these characters in things because I can relate to many of them. They often become my favorite characters. They’re not just there because sad lonely men. But because they are cool and interesting.
WOW, this stopped being about goth rebel dream girls REAL fast!
I mean, once you get into real-life sexual harassment, there's a lot of room to critique and analyze the different ways people justify their behavior, the damage it causes, and the ways we can work to prevent it... but I don't think you can blame "goth rebel dream girls" as the cause for any significant portion of the problem. Workplace sexual harassment is not just a problem in the animation/entertainment industry, but across all industries. So it's not really relevant to your video's topic.
You lost me bruh.
Repeatedly.
Eight minutes in: Obama? Wtf am I even watching at this point..?
Nine minutes: just made some good, truth filled points, but holy hecc is this one unorganized mess of a video.
Is this a justification of creep behavior, an excuse for it, or with the intent to simply explain it? Because it kinda comes off as justification.
Okay, so now some life lesson shit that, while kind of true, really makes me question the title of the video I just watched; Dazed & Confused
Its explain it you moron. Like is it really that hard to grasp? Am I just some 200 iq rick and morty fan because I'm able to see that is easily discernable?
Wayne Ekeh Since ur so smart u should’ve identified unorganized and crap work instead of defending.
@@martinherrera4617 I'm not that smart, it's just not that complicated
Ummmm.... Wendy from Gravity Falls isn't a goth. Tambri fits the archetype much better than Wendy does. In fact, nothing about Wendy is Goth.
Deadrift89 she’s just tomboyish
This video is just a mess dude
I'm a half asian girl who dyes my hair often. Tbh I just like being represented.
i KNOW u didn't call marceline "rosaline"