Ventilated Wall System | Learn The FACTS and RISKS Before You "Save Money" By Not Using Spray Foam
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- Опубликовано: 8 мар 2024
- In this weeks video, the mod team and I tackled insulating a shipping container for a hockey rink with a Mineral Wool, Batten style insulation, a first in my 13 years. The real game-changer was our pivot to a Zip-R sheeting system, combating moisture and thermal bridges with OSB panels.
So, lace up your skates and join me as we explore the ins and outs of container insulation, eh?
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I really appreciate your time in putting together this FREE content. I would have really messed up my container house without your channel and expertise. I hate when people put negative comments. This is your business and you do what you want. You are in my opinion the leader in this field. I love how you push yourself to innovate and try new things. Haters gonna hate and sit on their couch and not do shit while you just keep learning and growing.
Edit... To be fair I guess you did ask for the haters opinion but I still stand by everything 😁
Thank you. This video was a lot of work. Glad it's appreciated.
Customer is alway right IN MATTERS OF TASTE- you are the container guy- in matters of Containers you should always be right.
I'm not always right though. Everythng I've learned is from past mistakes. School of hard knocks...
I've also learned you can't think of everything the first time. So little by little, continue to challenge yourself and improve. Never settle. Always question the process & believe your eyes / trust your intuition.
Install a blue tooth moisture meter then monitor it over the length of the product. I suggest moving the air in the air void is the crucial part.
Negative pressure.. i.e. a VACUUM if nothing else a draw/pull ...TIED to a humidity meter so that only when overall humidity inside the living space is LOW that it turns on... perhaps set up a dehumidifier to run during the day specifically with a motion detector with a couple hours delay...so that after you leave for the morning it turns out after moisture/humidity has stabilized in the living space from cooking and showers, etc...then dehumidifier runs (perhaps just on a daily/weekly programmed timer) and then when/if the humidity reaches some low average threshold then the.dead air space vent kicks on...
But your idea of a circulating of the dead air is also quite important to prevent any stratification of moisture levels depending on rising warm moist air or cooling condensating air at ANY location... Perhaps dozen or so small brushless computer fans. Strategically placed or directionally aligned so that ALL air is rotating in a uniform" vortex around the length of the container? Perhaps two sets, aimed in opposition so that they alternate days /weeks /months at a time? ...the only thing that usually stops them is dust buildup which "should NOT happen" ...
a boroscpe camera could be used to inspect the cavity...perhaps strategically placed 1/4" PEX or other tubing through inspection ports seal the hole with 100% silicone caulk clear, then cap...so that when you want to insert camera, just remove cap and instant access?
Just FYI, there a multiple Swiss and German companies who do containers for harsh weather. i worked in one for approx one year, and it was absolute perfect in winter and in summer because it had ac triple insulated windows and perfect insulation overall.
What are the names of those companies??
@@1truthseeking8 > mccontainers, euromodul, conrocontainer...
I can't believe how much information you put in this video!! I can understand why your friend wanted mineral wool. I'm hoping this turns out great. It's what he needed and it'll be just another learning process for you and the team! And evidently, you guys are always up for the challenge!! We'll see you by the end of the year with a follow up video? I can't wait to see how this turns out!! Thank you, Channing. Loved this video!!
I had a band room that had 4 inch foam on the walls of the room exposed, it was crazy we took a audio meter to it and you could play drums in the room and it dropped the sound over 60db in the room in order to talk to someone in the room we had to use the PA system just to hear each other the room was only 14X10 and someone next to you was hard to hear. at night you could not hear anything other than the AC vent (if you were right on top of it) and since there was no windows it was like a depervation chamber. but the people that lived less than 20 feet away said they could tell there was a Live band playing but sounding like a low volume stereo playing we would play well after midnight sometimes so the outside walls were your standard stick and drywall with stuco and then the normal insulation in the walls then 4 inches of dark gray ridiget foam boards 4'X8' it was dark and dead quiet in there, and with a full band inside it was lower than a TV on like 20 volume, you could sit in the room next to the band room and watch TV and not have to blast the volume at all. It is a crazy feeling and yes like your balance is off like an ear full of water but even more
We are finishing up a build very very similar with different materials. Ours is for a future bunk house and mobile office. We sent you some details that you might like from Classic Built High Performance email. Our mission is a DYI version bunk house office for building 2 houses on site to Passive House Building Standards. I consider it a science project because it's unorthodox with a fresh air intake system through the floors, up the walls and out the roof. It's a dual ventilation system, 1 for the walls and one for true fresh air for human occupancy. So far it's working just like what we thought based on the building science. Keep up the good work guys.
Great video. Thanks for explaining the "why" about things. To help the steel stud thermal bridging issue you might try EcoStud. I used them for a external insulation wall on a house. I put one horizontal row of OSB on the studs then fill the cavity with spray foam then repeat.
I would be VERY interested in your findings after use of this container, I hope you do a follow on video on it :) also have you ever done a video on standing a container on end?
Bravo......container wisdom .......the big problem with container are the flat roof......they pool on top........cut top off and elevate one side.....cheers
So I totally understand your points. I’m a retired Ironworker and have been thinking about the heat and cold of these steel buildings. My question is what if a 12 volt or low voltage air flow system in the walls that would blow and recirculate somehow when the moisture or surface heat gets to a certain point?
Been thinking about the same thing. It's especially moisture concerning me here in the South. But the heat is going to be bad as well.
while I haven't been commenting as much as I used to, I still watch and appreciate your videos.
Thanks 🤜🤛
I like your channel and your advices, but I think you missed a real opportunity here to use the ceramic coating HPC from Superior Coatings. Sure, it's not cheap but neither was all the rockwool and special treatments you came up with. With HPC you should never have the condensation problem that you know is inevitable with even your best-choice treatments.
What if you added insofast inserts behind the mineral wool to reduce the air gap and help with the thermal bridging?
Have you considered using a "thermobond" paint on the outside?
Might spray foam work IN COMBO with squishy min wool (for acoustics) then plywood? Say, for mediterranean climates?
The customer is always right in matters of taste.
You panic way too much over using wood structure inside of a c-can. Years and years of doing it and using rockwool for insulation has proven that it is absolutely fine as long as you provide an air gap behind it. As you did in this system you'll have no issues. It's no different than building a house. You just need your vapor barrier between the internal warm area and your external cold area.
Are you venting (active and negative pressure or passive?the space between the metal on inside of container and ?
Also, when you say "vapor barrier" can you please be MORE specific? There are sooo many categorical types some are plastic film that is designed to STOP movement, others are resistant and unidirectional and others are like wood...
What prevented from using external insulation? It was confusing, since it seemed like you had CAD models with external insulation, but there ended up being none. Wouldn't that have solved all the problems? I am assuming this is not transported a lot, so they extra widht wouldn't be a problem.
Time. We have a 3D model but ZERO real life experience. I am confident we could exterior insulate and finish a container on the walls and roof but have some thinking to do on how to deal with the base / underside on something that is meant to be transported. A site-built unit on a insulated concrete pad or footing would be easy. This summer we plan to mess around with this concept.
@@TheContainerGuyTVReally exited to know you're working on it! I've been planning my container build for a long time and I know it will have external insulation for maximum interior space and that sweet, corrugated, industrial look. Underside definetely seems like the biggest problem, mine is going to be on wheels and tractor towable. But one thing is sure, it will be built with your kits! Your channels has been a great inspiration and I'm always very exited when there is a new video :D
I insulated an ambulance in a similar manner, HUGE mistake. I've learned not to use ANY organic material in the process of insulating, framing, or finishing a metal container or vehicle. My concern for your build is the OSB. Water vapour will always find a way to get to the organic material and condense on it. If the owner can keep the internal environment at a constant and consistent temperature and humidity level then any issues may be delayed, but eventually, in my experience there will be issues.
Your installation was 100% installation error. Not the products. You also are comparing the zip system to standard OSB. It's not the same. Same way with rockwool insulation as he's using it does not absorb moisture and doesn't mold. You are also using the term organic material which has nothing to do with this. Your experience in this matter is very limited based on your comments. Lol
@@jasonmorehouse3756 13 minutes into the video anyone with eyes can see they used OSB OVER the zip system, anyone with ears can here him say "the H clips will stop the sagging between 2 sheets of plywood or OSB". Maybe try watching the video before posting ignorant uniformed comments.
@@Ukraine4TheWinhmm... You make a case for serious consideration... I was looking to do as much external insulation as materials could tolerate AND adhere/attachment methods allowed such as spray foam up to 6 or more inches... Then foam board or foilfoam board or other THEN a gap and siding or additional "shipping container PANELS...? Thought of just creating a cavity and filling it solid between inner shipping container and the outer shipping container shell with whatever necessary but minimal welded structural connections between the two...
Initially I wanted an R-value of 50 to 80 with most of it on the outside...
For the interior I had wanted to coat the container with some paint mentioned elsewhere in the comments here that has a ceramic microbubbles that are a vacuum, or something similar to reduce the risk of condensation in anyway... THEN whatever air gap and then for interior wall a flat on both sides milled log floor walls and ceiling of around 8 inches to 12 inches... Our longest location will be in Alaska - which pretty much goes through all extremes of temperature and humidity combinations...then also entire year long in Florida and Arizona and back to Alaska... Both near the coast and away... Shipping Container would be "Marine"/"Corten Steel" ...
The reasons for the flat milled log interior is "thermal mass" and aesthetics... Using "Shou sugi ban" charred wood more charred on exterior and interlocking than on interior facing surfaces ...
Would be kept on a double dip low trailer as one to 1.75 years in any one location is really not justified to load and unload ... We can easily and desire to go for a wider shipping container as 12 feet width for most states only requires a very small oversized load permit and NO pilot car...
Also a HC (High Container) of at least 9'6" or a custom higher container of up to 12 feet ...
However, as we will likely have at least one truck and possibly another vehicle to trailer...one or two "pilot cars" would not be out of the question as we are both CDL holders so no real issue there.
Otherwise we can have shipped the majority of the distance by boat and skip the traffic and the majority of oversized load concerns...
But the first concern is addressing moisture and preventing mold. Larger dimensions are only a preference, as the extra width and height are MORE for insulation options first and inner space appreciation second.
If i use Sprayed cellulose insulation behind a drywall inside the container with no other insulation and compact it to eliminate any airs gaps
would that work for humidity?
That's exactly how a house wall is done with blow-in cellulose. Provided you have a vapor barrier on the warm side immediately behind your drywall. You will be fine. You have to remember your vapor barrier always goes on the side of the insulation that is warm in winter
NO haha! Cellulose is recycled newspaper which wicks moisture big time.
Think of framing up to container corrugations like framing up to a concrete basement wall. We have learned that you must frame your basement walls away from the concrete so the moisture in the concrete does not wick into the studs. If you spray foam basements, you don't need that air gap. Same goes with containers.
@@TheContainerGuyTV Using sprayed cork to eliminate the air gap between the metal wall and the insulation ?
, as cork possesses excellent thermal and acoustic insulation properties. Additionally, cork is naturally resistant to moisture and mold, making it a suitable choice for environments where humidity may be an issue
Next, using cellulose wool as the primary insulation can be an excellent solution to complement thermal insulation.
cellulose wool can be installed to effectively fill cavities and prevent thermal bridging, contributing to improving the energy efficiency of the structure.
i love cellulose in france , i do this for my home , insane performance
* Why not isolate the metal beams(struts) in your system so it will not transfer the cold from metal to metal. Not sure if a rubber gasket between your metal rafter beams and brackets is better or if you just coat all your metal parts with a sprayon rubber coating like FLEX SEAL! By rubber coating all the rafters and brackets it would cut down on transfer of cold . It would also help dampen sound transfered through metal to metal contact of your rafter system!
Just a thought, try it out if it works make a video of it and add it to your system! I would charge you to much for the idea! LOL! But I think wether you spray flex seal on all your metal rafters,brackets, or beams, or cut rubber gaskets to put in between rafters where you connect them together , it will help you dampen the sound and the cold that transfers between your metal parts of your system.
You will just have to try both and see which works best. I think spraying all your parts will be the best but if you cut rubber to put between them you can control the thickness better!
Eitherway give it a try and make a video! Which you could reccomend to your customers to spray flex seal on all your rafter/wall system to help dampen the transfer of sound and cold through the metal parts. I hope this helps!
This system is steel studs (not our strut system) but you are 100% correct. Metal brackets are perfect to start because they allow us to use them, adjust the design in small batches until the product is proven. Once we know it works and that there's a market for it, then we move to injection moulded brackets which is exactly what we have done with these SSB. In the next week or two, we will have 10,000 glass filled nylon resin SSB available for sale. Zero thermal bridging and way stronger than the aluminum counterpart.
We can rubber coat or 3D print rubber gaskets to isolate the metal brackets in the meantime but our engineer did the math on the surface area of the bracket and how much thermal bridging there would be and it isn't huge. Especially with spray foam all around it.
@@TheContainerGuyTV I would suggest you look into "other" materials like solid blocks of nylon or other "low conduction" but HIGH COMPRESSION and LONGER LIFE than rubber... I know rubber "can" last a long time, but it "rots"/*oxidizes* AND deforms under steady light pressure over time...
Let me know if I am wrong or what material you find or settle on...as I too may be in need of...
You need a thermal camera
I think forced air vacuum will be needed or a ridge vent, if the attic concept is important and you dont have air flow the mold will follow... allow air in the bottom and out the top
A year ago, I designed and prototyped lower intake vents and a 4ft long ridge vent that installs on the high corrugation of the roof. I hate the idea of roof vents on a finished interior. It's not so bad when it's general storage but not when there's drywall right below.
I started ordering my new containers with the stock vents down low and up high. They aren't much but better than nothing. I'm actually surprised that nobody else has thought of this... All one time use cans should have low/high ventilation
Also, what I didn't say on the video is that we can still install eight BigAir30 vents all around (4 high, 4 low) if the customer notices any problems. We just wanted to try this first.
Arrangement is not needed in this case. You only use a ridge vent when you have a peaked roof because that is your highest point in this case with a shipping container all you need is a high and low vent. Or multiple high and low vents actually work better. Eric will naturally flow. That's why you don't use any forced air ventilation in an attic with your ridge vent. The air will naturally go up to the highest point to circulate from the eaves to the peak. If there are vents in the side of a sec can at the bottom and at the top that's all that is needed as air will naturally flow between them taking along with all the moisture
Key to remember it doesn't matter if the customers always right, that's not the whole saying. It's cut off after those 3 words to guilt trip companies. Company should never bend quality to keep a sale. It means your not just bending your quality, but your reputation. If it rusts out now it's "why you let me do it vs just turn down the job" and delayed the inevitable. Be interesting to see how this holds up long term. Seems like may not be a super long term solution as the other equipment itself may simply wear out before the container is compromised by subpar vapor seal design you settled with for client retention. Past client and living across the road from the guy would only give me more reason NOT to budge on quality of solution.
Did you watch the whole video or just the first 5 minutes?
@@TheContainerGuyTV Both. Your explanation to the reasoning at the end is great, but doesn't change the fact. Ensuring they simply are getting spray foamed with a new enough lot # of spray foam is simple to do. End of the day the client agreed to take on the risks, but that doesn't prevent them from draggin your name through the mud if it doesn't hold up to the environmental conditions. "I tried to tell you" never ends well for us business owners after the fact. Ive turned away plenty of work because they want me to work below my standards.
@@MattWeber the client is a business and has been in business since before I was born. They are well informed of the shortcomings and have made an informed decision. The wall system is a common air space and can still be further vented if deemed necessary - simple resolution. Worst case scenario, if warranty work was required, it would be well worth the cost for the data collected from it in the name of science.
We aren't trying to make the PERFECT wall system here. We know what that is (spray foam). What we are trying to come up with is an affordable wall system that performs decently in most climates for the less fortunate or hard-to-reach locations (off-grid). We are thankful this project allowed us to experiment.
Are shipping containers going to get a lot cheaper in a couple years with all this disruption going on in Gaza? I'm assuming China is mass-producing containers right now.
They are really cheap right now. Looks like iron ore is going way up which is going to make container prices go up. My advice is buy now if it's something you're looking to do in the next year or two.
Why did the customer refuse spray foam insulation?
TOXIC off gassing that lasts for up to 100 years... i.e. until you rip it out...most insurance companies are starting to refuse to cover homes sold with it...has to be completely removed by a licensed & certified hazmat& foam removal company before a loan can be approved!!!
Why not insulate the same way that RV's are?
Because they are NOT insulated for continuous use...they expect to be used LESS THAN 2 WEEKS on average per year for the first five years, and EVEN LESS than that after
....No one is worried about efficiency nor mold if they use it for two weeks and sell it inside of three years!
Without that sprayfoam there will definitely be condensation inside that wall cavity
Yeah I agree. 💯 certain days of the year...
Nothing in the wall system will wick the moisture so hopefully it can escape. My main regret on this mod is not using a butyl flashing tape on the floor under the steel stud track as a sill seal so the moisture doesn't wick into the floor. We have already thought of this on other wall system designs so I'm disappointed in myself for not remembering. Live & learn I guess.
What about the insofast foam boards? I’m building out a living container and insulated with the insofast kit and plywood walls. I’ll be running a mini split - do you think I’ll have mold issues?
@@MrBobSanchez Depends on your climate. Insofast is better than wood studs and fibreglass insulation (but that isn't your only alternative). The insofast is not adhered to the wall or roof corrugations. As I mentioned in the video, if you're having an airspace, you want a common airspace. Not a bunch of little air pockets which is essentially what insofast gives you.
I believe their newest iterations of their product (maybe the basement version) has little breather holes to help ventilate. Why did they add that now? Were there problems with not having them? Logic tells me YES.
Also, their foam isn't closed cell. It's ~1.5lbs (instead of 2lbs) so it's almost closed cell... but not. This means it's porous and in extreme cases, mold could grow in the cells of the foam itself.
In Canada, the product isn't readily available here (nor is it well-suited for our climate) so it's the same cost to use Insofast or frame with steel studs and spray foam which makes the spray foam a NO BRAINER. Also, people need to understand that spray foam locks everything together. It should be looked at as a structural necessity with the added benefit of vapour barrier and R-value.
The mini split has a dehumidification mode and should always be turned on (if possible) to control excess humidity inside. The ceiling is going to be your biggest problem so consider a hybrid of Insofast walls and spray foam ceiling if you're sold in Insofast. The end walls and doors are also easier to spray foam.
@@channingmccorriston Very helpful! Thank you. I plan to use your framing kit on the outside so I can easily clad the container with siding. Should I spray foam the outside? Will that help with potential condensation risks? The containers will be covered by a roof kit as well (pod roof).
Incorrect.