WORST Ways to GM- Antagonistic Dungeon Master- D&D Discussions
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WORST Ways to GM- Antagonistic Dungeon Master- D&D Discussions
Are there wrong ways to DM? We'd say their are few D&D sins and antics a Game Master or player can pull at the gaming table that lessen the experience for everyone.
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If you are playing the DM to "win", you've already lost, because you actually win by making sure everyone else has more fun!
I that my players see me as antagonistic sometimes. I run very difficult combat scenarios (in D&D 5e all my fights are hard or deadly, otherwise I think it robs the world of the sense of danger), but I always give my players tools and hints on how to deal with whatever comes their way and they ignore those. Here's what I'm dealing with and really, I have no idea what else to do to make it feel like I'm not out to get them:
My party is level 3 right now, 4 fighters, 1 wizard. The villain of the first arc was this werewolf that could animate trees was trying to annihilate a village. In a nearby dungeon they found several silvered objects that could've been used as improvised weapons, including a silver sword. Since I used awakened trees, I also gave them plenty of flammable stuff (they stocked up on 5 flasks of oil I think).
Afterwards, 2 villagers went missing in the forest and they were partially transformed into werewolves (nerfed versions of the monsters). One of the lesser werewolves attacked the village one night and almost killed an NPC, but I made it very clear that the NPC survived because the werewolf touched his silver necklace and backed away in pain. The other lesser werewolf was found dead near a pile of dead bodies in a logging camp. He was burned badly and he also had a pitchfork sticking out of him. He did not bleed. The moment a player touched his puncture wounds with a silver coin though, the wounds opened and they started bleeding.
Time to fight the big bad (were)wolf. No silvered object was used (not even the silvered sword), and no flask of oil. No healing potions were bought because they were too expensive (they had ~125gp cash each with 50gp for a potion, negotiable), but right before going to kill the werewolf, the player wizard decided to run to the village wizard and spend 100gp on the material components for the Identify spell despite not having any unidentified magic items. It was very close to a TPK (2 people were simultaneously unconscious) and it would've been one if I didn't change the werewolf's damage immunity to non-silvered weapons to resistance.
TL;DR: Players tell me combat is hard but they don't use any of the tools I put right in front of them.
teseus6416
I get the same problems in some of my games where players seem to rely on the good nature and sympathy of the DM to survive. I explain to them that the story development is usually a result of actions the players themselves have taken and sometimes dice rolls. For some reason they still have the players versus DM attitude. This also makes it hard when they decide on a course of action that is pretty much suicidal for the characters and double down on their decisions even after multiple warnings that those actions could end them. When players throw their dice and have a tantrum when I roll a 20 against them or something bad happens as a result of their recklessness, then I really don't feel like playing the game much anymore with anyone. I try to tell a story and enjoy how the story develops through the actions of the players. Killing the players achieves nothing.
I once had a GM that would become easily vengeful. The group sometimes had criticism of campaigns. We felt we were not just on the plot rail road but that the story was playing itself. Outcome of events happened with or without the assistance of party and attempts to change the world with our actions was futile. This GM had a story to tell and we should feel lucky to be spectators within it. After criticism was raised, the GM seemed to take it well, but usually next session an event would come out of no where and there would be a full party wipe with no sign of a possible escape. If anyone tried to escape, something was always right around the corner to usher them to their demise. We were still on the plot rail road, we just simply found the button to switch the track to end of the line death canyon.
See if my dm ever set's up something like that I am going to respond with this, "seeing such an unbelievable series of events unfolding before her, my character suddenly manifests latent psionic energy and uses it to planeshift as a reaction having subconciously realized that this is a faulty worldline. Conicidentally I'll also be planeshifting DM, right out of your game. Bye.
IMO If they stop playing by the rules, you can too so long as you're walking out after that.
For me I hate the GM that doesn't kill you right away. They kill you slowly by punishing you for nearly every role play interaction you do, gives you penalty's for trying to find a way around a problem the GM gave either you or the group and follows the rules strictly when the GM can screw somebody over with said rule but then bends them if somebody is using another rule to benefit themselves. When this happens you just can't say that an unfair encounter is what got you, it's the GM's style itself that's problematic.
Big Blue To me, all that stuff should be laid out at session 0 or even before any players show up. Deciding who to play with is a important as deciding to play at all. A DM and players should all lay it out and come to a social contact that everybody can agree upon regarding playing the game, including frequency and specifics of the schedule, the style of game the players want to play, the style of GMing the GM wants to provide. Hash that all out first, come to an agreement.
Then anything beyond that that represents a break in the social contract can be discussed and handled appropriately, including a DM or player deciding they don't want to play with the others any longer.
It's a game, first and foremost, and nobody should be forced to do something they don't enjoy when playing games.
Really sad that someone is quitting playing because of bad DM's I hope that player found a table online or nearby their home to join.
My only wizard was a gnome who translated his spells into poems since he used to be a Poet. No one could tell it was his spell book.
Kyle Ellis Damn, that's a great idea!
One of the things I hated about my old DM was that every action had to be spelled out like a genie's wish.
Example: I'm playing a ranger and I have a pet wolf (this dm played that the wolf was an npc under his control)
"The rest of the party is heading for the tavern. Do you join them and what do you do with your wolf?"
"My wolf and I both go to the tavern"
"You're not sure if the apprehensive looks you get from the townsfolk are directed to you (half red dragon) or your pet"
"I order some drink and two servings of meat. (After it comes. Out) I feed my pet a slice of meat"
"She puts both paws on the table, begging for more"
"I jokingly tap her on the nose and tell her she knows better"
"Her hair bristles and she growls at you"
"Seeing that shes feeling energetic, I play wrestle with her"
"While youre wrestling you accidentally push her flank into the fireplace. She yelps and the smell of burnt hair fills the tavern. She whimpers and curls up under the table"
Keep in mind, there were no rolls, and this was the first mention of said fire because "nobody asked for a description of the tavern"
TheAncient Wolflord Your dm made some serious mistakes. One: not telling you how everyday folk would respond to a half dragon (and his pet wolf)
Two: failing to describe the setting. Yes, the players already have an idea of what every generic tavern looks like: a few tables, some wenches, a bar with regulars, and a burly bartender. Any extra details MUST be described, excluding anything that would require a roll (that tapestry in the corner has a slight bulge [DC 12 perception], and the old guy in the corner eyeballing each of you as you come in the door)
Three: introducing damage during a nominal encounter between PCs and PC allies
Pet's are controlled by the player character, your DM sounds terrible.
It’s really about checks and balances sometimes too. Know that fool hearty players might not see the warnings and for the sake of the game sometimes making a monster flee or stop is acceptable. Another thing to remember is the player often wanna game the system and badass beyond the realm you’ve set. “If it’s good for the player it’s good for the villains” my old dm always said. You want or do these things well the npc and villains can do it too.
I think that many DMs stuff up by playing tired. Just as the players can make dumb decisions when tired so can the DM. A big part of DMing is being able to think on your feet, so when things start to go south fast you can think of ways to address it before it leads to a TPK.
But sometimes players just do inexplicable things that get their characters killed. And there needs to be the threat of possible death to give player decisions meaning. It's a hard balancing act to pull off when combined with a RNG rules system.
I remember back in 1e days, I went about two months without ever getting a character past 1st level (playing twice a week every week) - they just kept dying. In 5e, doing that would be a major undertaking.
I've been pretty tame in my brutality in this edition since it came online. I've killed two characters outright, though one was effectively part of a TPK: a party of kids and nephews went into a wererat warren making terrible noise. The wizard was one-shotted, and rolled a 1 on his death save, the rest were basically taken prisoner, but the campaign was discontinued after that, so it was a total defeat. The other death was a priest who was shot by a crossbow bolt while his companions were trying to rob a monastery of an icon (sic). He similarly rolled a 1 on a death saves, but his companions did get away.
Other than that, one ranger lost an arm; and another had an arm broken; a wizard recently lost his spellbook; and a sorcerer nearly electrocuted himself by casting a shocking grasp while taking a bath (yes, not very smart). The fact that these things happen rarely, but happen, is often a good thing, because we're still talking about these events - they're pretty formative as a gaming experience, especially for the younger players, who know that bad things can happen if they are loud, disorganized, and unlucky.
But strangely, the most evil thing I've done, apparently, was to kill an NPC. One PC's brother was taken hostage, and negotiations over his release (which I was quite certain was going to happen) went south, because the captor wanted five (non-magical) weapons for his release, and the PCs were only willing to give three. The parlay broke down, and the PCs attacked, so the NPC carried out his threat, and killed the brother (before being killed himself). The player whose brother was killed actually got so upset about this that he temporarily quit the game. It went on hiatus, though it looks like we will return to it soon. But that one event - now a pivotal turning point in the campaign - will be remembered for a long time to come.
I'm playing with a very good DM who I find is merciless, but fair. He'll be quick to down you or infect you with a curse quick smart in the adventure for actions you take, but won't kill you unless you make a very stupid decision (which he'll usually warn you about), but will also be fair in finding ways to make it work.
An example, was he killed my cleric of Tiamat in the session 0 for her, because as per her greedy character I was playing her to, she got too close towards the big baddies and was struck down instantly. Tiamat revived her soon after because she was 'amused and concerned that one of her chosen clerics was struck down so easily' and wanted my character to get to the bottom of the source of this power that she was intrigued by.
On the flip side, when one of the other characters accidentally activated nightmare mode by forcing us into a level 18 zone at level 6, the DM wouldn't kill us for failed saves, but punish us and give constant warnings of 'Are you sure you want to do that?' before accepting a decision that could kill us. We managed to get out alive, with only the paladin losing a leg thankfully (which he was lucky, because his diplomacy towards the Kraken we encountered there was *amazing*. "We have nothing to offer you, but if you let us live, we won't hurt you.")
Teds eyes at 7:06 He is having flashbacks lol. One thing is for sure, you left an impact on ted.
I had a GM decide a couple sessions in that he didn't like certain memebers of the party, so be started making characters, adding, and changing rules. All designed to burn the party and kill off characters. Then during second round character creation he just added restrictions and bullied one of our players until they made the character he wanted.
Having run that insanely hard game (although the players agreed to jump into that meat grinder) I can say that it can be fun. I think in the 5 sessions we played we had 9 character Deaths.
Just gonna copy and paste my reddit post but it was basically the GM kept making homebrew rules in the middle of the game that I didnt know about
literally just had this problem with my last group, first it was "hey you cant use sneak attack every round cause they know you are" (he ignores the 5ft rule and says it his "commonsense" rule), then it got worse telling me I had to roll for characteristics height weight skin color etc (his justification is that you dont get to chose who you are in real life) so I had to play a 300 pound 5'5 orc , and even started to say I cant add strength or dex to my damage rolls. Its not just me that he does this with he even stonewalls people characters when they come up with solutions to encounters we come across, and this last one I asked him if I could do point buy instead of rolling (his is rule 4d6 reroll any 1s or 2s take the highest 3 which ends up in a lot of 16s and 18s for most of my stats) which I actually dont like being good at everything, and I even said the others could still use his rule if they want to, just let me play on a lower power level legits uses the "you dont get to choose what your good at like real life" reasoning I countered with yes you do you can train to be better IRL like exercising and studying etc then blatantly just said Im not gonna let you use point buy your gonna have to keep rolling for stats. Also I like using point buy cause I can transfer most characters from one group to another.
Later on I actually find this nice group on roll20 we only play 2 hours atm on sundays cause of scheduling/work but were trying to do 2 sessions a week, the sad part is that I find to have more fun in a 2 hour session with these people than a 4-6 hour session with my last group.
I sat down with him and talked to him multiple times about how I felt he was in the wrong and reasons why and he said "if you dont like how I dm there is the door" so I took the door and left saying Id rather not play dnd than play dnd with his "homebrew" rules.
Also he ignored the ruling in banishment saying "anything effected by banishment over a minute is permanently banished" ANYTHING this includes PC vs PC.
Am I in the wrong here? cause I do not believe I am.
TLDR- Last group with friends had a DM that was ignoring rules in the PHB and home brewing rules mid game, talked to him about it, had the "I'd rather eat my armor than admit when I'm wrong" personality. Found a new group and Im ten times happier.
Idk why i bother even typing this out its not like anyone is gonna see this at all
he was a megalomaniac idiot that had no sense at all I am glad you left him I sure hope he is not Dming not cuz I would crushed his head by now
Well i read your post. ^.^
Yeah some people are like that. But the option to leave is there in any party. The biggest thing to remember is you guys are getting together to have fun. And that DM sounds like he was the only one that wanted his fun. I just hope the rest of the party got out too. Every party is different, every DM is different, every game is different. Find the one that works for you. It sounds like you have.
1) When it comes to the back stabbing. I don't know what the reasoning was. Also I play pathfinder/3.5 mostly. So I don't really know how it works in 5th so well. But if the scenario was that the rouge was power playing the back stab and turning nearly every moment of every combat into a back stab. I can see him stepping in and trying to curb it back a bit and make it more of a thing one has to try and pull off. 2) As far as your character's weight, height etc. Fuck him. Yes in life you don't get to choose. But what is he going to do next. Make you roll for gender and class? The point of the game is you come up with a character you want to play and play him. 3) I'm not sure what the banishment rule is. But from what you said so far. This sounds like a case of the dungeon master seeing his players as a tool for the story HE WANTS TO TELL. Any dungeon master worth his salt lives by this rule. It's not your story or my story. It's our story.
idk y he insists on making everyone op stats. Its funny your orc was short and fat though.
The banishing thing is bs and so is the sneak attack because sneak damage represents more than only sneaking it also means skill and precision with a blade particularly when you have advantage
No. Your right.
My former D.M. has been doing the same kind of thing.
"Barbarian's don't have their armor proficencys."
(Would have been nice for us to know, before making our characters)
"Rollplay is a waste of table time."
(That's at least 1/3 of the fun!)
I don't know if I am an antagonistic GM. I am running heroes unlimited and have experienced players hiding their plans / intentions from me in a "player vs GM" manner. It took a few sessions for them to come around, but basically the way I award experience is for ideas, plans, actions, good judgment, and deductive reasoning . If they don't talk it out so I can hear them, they miss out on a lot of experience. Aside from that I tailor the encounters to compliment their skills and abilities or to reflect decisions they have made throughout the campaign.
They took a friendly NPCs gun, so when they went back to him they found he was murdered because he was defenseless. They killed two people and now their friend shows up for revenge. They used up all the emergency electricity at a hospital so everyone on life support died.
I'd like to think I am a "tough but fair" GM.
sounds perfectly fine to me
ThugLyfeTorkoal I hope it is. The whole "everyone is worse off for knowing you" vibe just feels very dour and soul-crushing.
lol i just tend to ask my players if they had fun/ what was there favorite part of the night or ask if they think theres any way i can improve there experience
You might enjoy thinking of yourself as tough but fair, and that's fine maybe you are, you just gotta remember that it's not everyone's cup of tea. I tend to stay away because I don't really get on well with those kinds of people. People value different things, and that's fine.
MycenaeanGal I'm not sure that I understand. What would you do differently?
Played with one gm were being antagonistic was has whole thing only played with him 5 times before leaving to another game as when you go threw 3 characters in 3 hours that kinda makes you wanna not play with them anymore.
My players had the mission to take out a group of bandits. I gave them the hint, that one of their red bandanas may be a good disguise. They encountered a small group, that brought a cart of loot back to their hideout and they decided to attack them. One bandid ended up escaping. They walked into the hidout with the bandanas on. Since they left a survivor that could report back they had multiple guards at the enterance that asked for their names. Because the guards didn't recognize them, they called all their men in the hideout, so one may identify them. Since noone could, the group found themselves in an impossible situation, if there weren't a caged bear, that could be released. Also, I was benevolent and said some of them were just holding beer and had to arm themselves first, which took 2-3 rounds. The group still thought they could fight through and lost 2 guys, trying to save the bear. To leave another scar I decided some bandits were stationed outside and stole their mules and the goods on them.
Since they failed the mission, i made it that chaos erupts in the land, leading to the uprising of a religious cult, that the replacement characters were hired to assist. They turned on the cult, for their rejection of arcane magic and helped the authority to restore their rule of law in a huge bloody battle, which led to the capture of a very popular NPC.
I love giving my players a difficult challenge, but not for every combat, situation etc. So far my campaign has chewed up six PC's, but everyone is having fun, and almost all the deaths were epic and meaningful. I let the new character join a level below the party and with equipment and magic items appropriate for the level, so the player is not really loosing out too much except for the grief that comes from loosing a well loved story character. Every boss battle has been a potential TPK with the odds heavily stacked against the party. So when they overcome that and win, with me rooting for them all the way, everyone has a great time. I think that is the key, the DM needs to be seen as fair, and also on the side of the players. That doesn't mean giving in to every whim, or throwing a ton of softballs, but it shouldn't mean beeing a douche either.
Adventuring is a dangerous business. That said, I like to think of adventure difficulty as a wobbly sin wave. Sometimes, the deck is absolutely stacked against the players. That adversity makes them heroes/ the protagonist. And sometimes, PCs need to feel powerful, thus the difficulty is low. The majority of the time, difficulty needs to be balanced near centered on the x axis. Those high and low points are like exclamation and question marks. I have on occasion used an antagonistic style to drive the game a certain direction. On purpose with the idea that pressing the players would and did provide that cathartic release when the challenge was completed and we could downshift. There was an intent to get the players but not for malign reasons. It was just a pinch of spice to aid character development.
Yeah, random misfortune often befalls loved ones in real life. but by that metric, Most villians should be taken down by random diseases, passing busses, heart attacks, and suicide LONG before the players beat them. because that's how villians typically die in real life. I know I'm focusing on a tangent, but it's the only thing I have to talk about not repeated a dozen times in the comments.
I usually agree with you guys. and I've nothing against kidnap plots and such. but 'your loved one was randomly killed or heavily wounded or dominated" is the exact shit I'm trying to ESCAPE by playing a fantasy game. Yeah, I can get a little solace in murdering the hell out of someone who hurt someone I love, I've had some good moments where I come back to find a master killed for being too involved in our war or a friend hurt to get at me. but there's always an out. a way to get them back, or at least a feeling that "This wouldn't of happened if I didn't get them involved, let info slip, etc" If I wanted people around me randomly hurt for no reason by people and circumstance there's already plenty of that in life.
Maromania many DMs are self serving and lack awareness. Killing off a PC's loved one without giving the player some kind of agency to prevent it is just bad GMing imo.
yeah. closest I've come was a choice, essentially. they had 2 threats, and they chose to take care of the larger one, a week of travel one way (not including the Minotaur maze through the mountain). warned that the cult literally 2 days out might strike if they caught wind of their absence. lo and behold, came back to find the place on fire with an army of Corby rampaging. now since they blasted through the last missions as quick as possible, even ignoring some loot, I let them slide and show up mid-fight. a little negation of consequences for at least trying to fix their decision, even if their favorite blacksmith lost an arm and the shopkeeper died (they went on quest to res him as penance)
town was even saved due to the most bad-ass moment I've ever seen (CR 23 jabberwok being solo'd by a level 11 fighter one-way warped onto his back in a fit of 'you will regret this attack if it kills me' rage with 3/5 of his rolls nat 20 and 2/3 of its rolls nat 1's). but the whole situation was never doubted to be their decision. they were aware of possibilities from leaving and chose. if they MAKE a decision, go ahead. might lead to some great moments. but random punishment as a plot device just doesn't sit well with me.
Not if they're undead or outsiders.
So, advertisement never gets me. Like hardly ever. But the incessant repetition of easyrollerdice adds actually makes me want to go check them out. Good for you :) Love your stuff, keep doing good content.
I had one GM who would metagame to screw with me. I was new to the campaign so no-one knew I was part of the party. I was playing a rogue and did reccon on the enemy base. The GM decided to start the next encounter in the module because it was the next thing. I couldn't fight all the enemies so I had to fast stealth away, and he kept throwing every enemy at me as if they were all aware who I was and why I was there. When I made it back to town the enemy's allies in town somehow knew the enemy was after me and jumped me.
I like your point. "Hey, this monster is badass, you might want to retreat." They retreat, and you let them go.
My Gm loves beholders, and when i say love em, i mean in the way, way over the top way he is not beyond tossing them in before level 10...
In my last campaign our 5 man team at level 10 fought a beholder in a 50 feet circles formed room without any cover (but 100 feet high sealing) (so the beholder was floating up there so our barbarian cuden't do anything else but trow javelins at it) and when the beholder died it "zombiefied" and turned in to a Death Tyrant with full health...
To this day i still do not know how we survived that encounter without a TPK i still do not know (2 people was down bleading out, but still not dead and we managed to stabilize them before they died)
In most editions a 10th level party would absolutely fodderise a solo beholder. They aren't honestly that tough. Sounds like the GM made an otherwise easy enemy tough by making the combat more interesting.
...I don't know if your DM is Matt Mercer, or just copying him. You aren't perchance a cast member on Critical Role, are you? XD
nono, im not :)
also Matt's beholder died fast after they removed the horn that kept resurrecting it, our beholder turned in to a death tyrant and got full health, Matt's beholder just kept resurrecting with a small amount of hp.
Vox machina had a full team (with tibby aswell) + kima, they had the option for cover and Grog could reach the beholder.
our fight was different, we got really lucky on alot of rays, fx 2 rays (2 sleep rays hit our high elf rogue, which fizzeld because he is immune to "sleep" do to the fact that elv's dont sleep)
So the fight was hard, but not unfair :D
If it wasen't for the fact that our sorcerer and wizard had almost full spells slots before the fight (we had desided beforehand for them to be conservatve with their spells and rely mostly on their candtrips and our rogue, cleric and barbarians melee hits) and them going full ham/nuked every spell slot they have on it (while not being in the cone) and actually rolled high damage dies on almost every single spell they cast it would have been a complete party wipe, it almost was with 2 people rolling death saves and barely any health left on the 3 remaining PC...
and don't forget our rogue was playing with a longbow and the barbarian was tossing javalins the entire fight instead of actually hitting with the proper weapons :(
I think it should be stated somewhere, that there are three (3) top rules in D&D. In no discernible order :
"The GM screen is not a scrimmage line, nor a fortification. You don't win or lose D&D."
"Narrative is everything. Anything can work if it's narrated to make sense."
"Never EVER let the rules get in the way of the game."
A good GM already knows these three rules and that they work with literally any system... in any setting... for any story or plot. A great GM knows when and where to focus on any one of these rules to make the rest of the game all the more interesting and fun for himself and the Players. :o)
On a slightly unrelated note as a programmer this "/" is a FORWARD slash, what is used in typing a web address. This "\" is a BACK slash used for many a thing not in web addresses however.
Had a GM who stole the item from one character that gave them their powers, and nothing we did seem to be capable of finding the item or creating a new one. Needless to say the player of that character got very bored when 3 sessions in they were still stuck being a powerless human in a superpowered game. Also insisted on throwing enemies at us of either numbers or power levels that always led to us having to retreat.
I couldn't imagine playing with a party that's 6 levels above my character. I would probably just quit playing if the group didn't use milestone system ''lvl 3,lvl5,lvl 7,lvl 9 etc'' and my character died. It's not fun to be useless dead weight who can't do anything while traveling with this group of strong adventurers.
To be fair, in 5e, bounded accuracy means that you AREN'T dead weight, even at low levels. You won't have 4 attacks/round, or level 7 spells, but you can still be useful.... and you level up to level 5 pretty quick.
TheBrothergreen not with my group you don't. Took us year to hit lvl5
frankly in that scenario XP should be boosted until the character has caught up
Even if that is true, assuming your group is battling CR5+ encounters routinely, you will level up quick.
Leveling up at low level should happen fairly quickly. Varying levels within a party is fun. A tenth level mentor leading a band of 5th level trainees etc can be a blast. Don't limit your fun and options in an unnecessary quest for balance.
I haven't been in a D&D campaign like that, but one table over there was a guy who TPK'd new players on the first session with zombies. They didn't do the one right thing to get away or something. I don't know why someone would do that to new players though.
I often find myself having a dramatic difficulty difference between my "dungeon" and wilderness encounters. I make the dungeons very challenging but balanced around the power of the party. While in the wilderness it one in three options; really weak, around level, dramatically stronger
I used to be like that as well, in terms of being antagonistic. I actually apologized to my players for being like that.
Now I view myself, as a GM, as really being nothing more then a narrator. I tell you what you run into you, you tell me what you want to do and roll your dice, and I tell you what happens. As a GM, I try to be true neutral.
How do you talk to your DM when something isn't really working?
To me it feels like we are punished whenever we don't follow the polt close enough, but at the same time the characters get punished when they do. Or maybe I just see things to dramatic. Maybe someone could look at the story and if I just have to calm down or if I should talk with my DM
I play a Harry Potter game at the moment. The characters are in the first year. So they can make small things fly, light, change a bit of color, transform a bit of material, a protection charm. Some other small charms.
My character had been given 5 explosive nuts and was told to hide them. Every student in the castle was asked about a fire incident (yes my character had something to do with it, in an attempt to find out something about the plot).
Now I had four ideas how to deal with that. My first idea was to hide them in the potion storage room, because those nuts can be used in potions. The door was closed. My character transformed a mit of the door into a veil to reach through, but before that a teacher showed up. My character managed to talk itself out of that, by admitting to once stealing a root (which is true) and wanting to give it back before the questioning. First plan down.
Second was to hide them in a secret passage our characters found earlier. I didn't roll very well and couldn't find it again. Second plan down.
Third I tried to transform those nuts into something harmless. That was just not possible. Third pan down.
Last, my character was hiding in an empty classroom and transformed a bit of the wall again into a veil, to form a little cave. My character wanted to hide them inside. So he put them in, then cut of a large part of the transformed veil and changed the rest back to stone just to cover the cave. I rolled decent. On a d6 a 4 with +1 from my wand and another +1 from luck.
The wall exploded in his face and his leg is now fucked up. I have now to wait until next session to see if I can even keep my character. The DM decided it was a stupid plan. I had no other saves.
Later the DM told me, that I could have just hide them in an abandoned classroom or something. But my character wanted those things hidden in a way that he wouldn't get in trouble because someone else found them shortly after where they don't belong and somewhere were they couldn't harm anyone else. In that
moment it felt to me like my DM didn't want his fun plaything out of the game.
In other cases it felt like characters were punished for actual following the plot and not just run to a teacher.
Do I overreact and it really was such a stupid plan or should I talk to my DM about his playstyle?
I play games for fun. And having challenges that CAN (key word) defeat the characters is the most common source of that fun. But the 'I am your enemy' GM who WANTS to defeat the characters is not fun. That is when the GM becomes an overstuffed colostomy bag. And when I leave.
And there is a line between the 'tough love' GM and the overstuffed colostomy bag. I'm looking at you, Dave. From the way you two described it, you used to be the latter.
I don't think I'm antagonistic as a DM I'm just running a huge party and need to make some encounters a bitch just to keep it interesting.
Basically, if your players die, have it be so that they on their own are capable of looking back on it and realize how they could reasonably have acted differently.
It's tempting to try and make a point about the harsh reality of your world and how much of survival is purely up to fortune but, in my experience, most players don't really share the same enthusiasm for this kind of misfortune.
Players tend to enjoy agency so if they know they had agency in their own deaths they thus tend to appreciate it more.
But that's my very minimal experience chiming in with its two cents. Take it for what it's worth.
Outdoors, beside water, on a beech, daytime... DM told me there are nn insects anywhere t be able to cast giant insect.
How about mosquitoes? Giant mosquitoes would be easy to figure out....
Thrn whip... won't let me pull an enemy without a strength check... its not a strength check. Its a spell effect.
Player: "I wild shape into a Lynx (modified panther for color... just wanted different color fur) I want to look for..." Book says in Panther wild shape I get bonus perception...
DM: "You don't understand the appearance of things through your cat eyes."
Why can't the druid ever get a spell other than cure wounds to function correctly?
my dm only gives out magic items that some how harm us or can even kill the characters and theyre not even strong. finally we all just stopped using the items he gave us and he got mad at us
My GM is a jerk. I'm a rouge/cleric/utility player by trade.
This butthead convinces me to make a tank. The party already choose ideas I had, and I always intended to fill in gaps anyways. Figured it'd be fun to give something a bit different than my usual a try & 5e had some weird & cool stuff.
Then this sadistic turdburgler has the gall to barely ever hit me! He hasn't even dropped me once! Our Cleric has never had to heal me!
I'll admit he's a softy gm, and had bad rolls, but fudge the numbers or something already!
Imho a gm shouldn't have their players yell at them for not damaging them.
(While true, this tale is in good humour)
As a DM it is not hard to kill the players, but at the end of the day are the players having fun...? This is the most important rule to ask yourself as DM..... EVERYONE should be having fun. You'll find out the hard way when nobody shows up to your next session, because they are sick of being your punching bag for your RL stress. Or when players begin making lackluster and generic characters because they know that they will die anyways....If i am not enjoying a certain DM, I personally won't hesitate to them straight away, although it pains me sometimes to be that forward, it doesn't always end well
Had a gm who told other players before our game session he was planning on killing my character off and only my character and he tried to accomplish such in a way that would humiliate me my guy was an assassin so naturally an assassin guild and thieves guild wanted me dead and tried to use the assassinate ability to get me it killed the campaign because me and the others got tired of these guilds trying and failing to kill me we left the area and he had wasted so much time he didn't even get the story down
Killing someone's character for missing a game is just being a petty asshole. People have real lives and sometimes that means they can't always be there for a game session.
You aren't wrong. Some of us were definitely jerks in our early 20s.
Nerdarchist Dave
My regular group basically mutinied against a terrible DM and kicked him out of our games entirely. Even as a player he was maliciously disruptive to other people's campaigns.
But dear gods above as a DM he was absolute horseshit. He refused to start campaigns at 1st level, forced EVERYBODY at the table to account for every coin and purchase starting gear (3.x years), and then would immediately begin his campaign with literally the same intro I kid you not. "As you go about your day you are struck from behind and black out! When you awaken, you discover that you have been captured and none of your equipment is with you!"
And of course, we would NEVER get any of it back. So we'd be playing level 5+ characters with no items - if we were *lucky* we could scrounge up the equivalent of 1st level starting gear for maaaybe two or three of us - facing CR 5+ encounters. He got away with this twice before he tried to do it in a d20 Star Wars campaign and made the mistake of letting me play a Jensaarai. I stole my lightsaber back, took over the Rebel ship (there was a thing, the Rebels kidnapping innocent civilians and forcing them to work for them under threat of death by poison...) and ended his entire campaign within an hour and a half of the first session.
I'm getting ready to DM a starfinder campaign (Which is almost exactly like pathfinder with a couple differences here and there, but ultimately not in any way that makes a difference to the campaign), and I've already run a couple sessions. I'm currently running into the problem that the groups tank keeps going down, and the reason isn't because he's making poor decisions. (He's playing a level 2 Vesk Soldier) I know the reason is because I consistently put the CR of the monsters 2 CR higher than the group's level. A combination of some bad luck on their part, good luck on mine, and the fact that these CR 4 monsters hit like a truck has led to him almost dying.
I'm worried because I don't want to be an antagonistic GM, but I also want to sell the universe they are in as being I N C R E D I B L Y dangerous. Right now, everything is handcrafted, with no randomized encounters, and a travel time between area's being basically minutes, and time is of the essence (the 2 KM long ship they are on is stuck in hell and is falling apart, infested with demons, and only getting worse)
Am I doing things wrong?
The railroady DM is by FAR the most annoying DM
The worst is when a GM just doesn't like one of the players and picks on them throughout the game. To polite to just say that they don't want the player in the game, but enough of a dick to make that player miserable.
I don't think totally random encounters where a level 2 party can meet an ancient dragon is just "a living campaign world and that's fine". It's perfectly possible to run a living campaign world in which the random encounters are BROADLY suited to the party's level. If you're allowing the possibility (however remote) of a totally mismatched combat encounter then you need to be giving serious thought to how the players can escape that encounter without having to win a fight. Just blithely repeating "but it's a living world, not a playground" doesn't change the fact that it SUCKS for the PCs to die because of an unlucky diceroll, not least because it actually IS a playground - yes the world should feel real, but it's a game, ultimately, and it's supposed to be fun.
But most of what you say here I agree with!
I've run plenty of campaigns in very real living worlds... AND I've had parties of low levels encounter creatures they couldn't possibly defeat in battle. BUT I remember that the term is "encounter" not "random fights"... SO there's generally lots of ways to avoid battle at every crux and step in any of my campaigns.
In our own (IRL) world... You have the options to wander plenty of woods, forests, jungles, and plains, even huge great expanses of deserts. I've even done so (IRL)... all over the world. I've literally encountered lots of dangerous and predatory creatures. I haven't had to deal with most of them... Plain and simply, even the most dangerous bears and big cats didn't seem to intend me to be on the menu at the time... It was still VERY MUCH an encounter, but I didn't have to fight anything...
I have even fought a grizzly bear, about fifteen years ago, now... A friend was with me at the time, and we were just hiking. I had a handgun, in case of bears, but we also had walking sticks, and frankly, I don't care for bear meat (and I refuse flat to waste such an animal in any case)... SO when the bear caught us by surprise (not so big a trick with two youths running their mouths instead of paying attention) we separated. This forced the bear to face one of us at a time. When he was busy snarling at my friend Leon, I smacked and jabbed at his ass with my stick. When he circled to growl and threaten me,.Leon did the same... occasionally one of us retreated from the bear while the other picked his moment, and then jabbed or smacked the bear's ass again... In what I can only describe as the longest three or four minutes of my life to date, the grizzly got frustrated with us, then disgusted with the whole idea and wandered off. Nobody was particularly worse for the wear, though I suppose the bear probably wouldn't agree wholeheartedly... I'd say his ass was sore for days. BUT you can't be too gentle with grizzly bears and expect them to respect you either... so there's that.
My point is, that I try to illustrate a full and lush and interesting world with all the ridiculous and random encounters for parties. I like to hope other GM's do as well, but I also hope that some creative problem solving (like my friend Leon and me with Mr. Grizz) and occasionally good RP can be substituted readily instead of constant combat. The world might well be a very violent place, but it doesn't always have to be... (for what it's worth... and I hope you giggled anyways) :o)
100% agreed. Very occasionally, I will pitch the party a supposed to lose fight, but I always make that abundantly clear and I usually frame it as a skill challenge rather than a standard combat. The goal isn't to defeat this thing, it's to GTFO without it wearing your skin. Thing is though, I never force the party to fight something they have no hope of defeating, or the rare time I do it's because they did something that I basically had giant neon lights saying 'do not do'. E.g. "Hey, you know that ancient red dragon our fifth level party was hijacked into working for. I'm gonna stab it."
After the beginning, talking about DM miscalculating and throwing stuff at the party that is too easy, brings a question to mind. How do you handle to opposite? I have a campaign that I run where the party is only level 10 currently but almost anything I throw at them gets wiped super fast. So then I up the c.r. And the new thing gets wiped. It's because it's a group of veteran players who are actually very good tacticians. Do I just keep upping the challenge or shift in some other way?
5e just isn't stable xp, or challenge wise after 8-9th level so most likely you'll need to strengthen the creatures via customizing them. Also any creature can be scaled up to fight a party.
So what is the difference between an antagonistic DM and a DM that wants to up the difficulty but doesn't really know if he/she made it too hard? I'm trying to be the 2nd, but my goal isn't to kill, but to truly test my players
Geoffrey Perrin the big difference is intention. Next: test battles. You know your party's basic capabilities, you can run a mock fight with your souped up beasties to get a feel for how much oomph your adjustments actually bring. Beyond that, it's a session zero question. "How tough do you guys like your fights? Should I hold off on heavy hitters for boss fights, or do you guys want to really earn each win?"
An antagonistic dm either will not do these things, or will go out of his/her way to stomp the last breath out of every party member
If you have problem with dificulty, just use CR calculator, I usually put every pre-planed encounter here and if its below deadly, they can take it.
dhmstark.co.uk/rpgs/encounter-calculator-5th/
Big Mac is it more accurate than the monster manual?
I think its same just more easy to use.
I just worry about it, because in d&d beyond, the designers stated that they don't use the 5e cr system
I only plan patty level appropriate tpks and they haven't died yet
I love my first real GM, but i also hate him. In all the campaigns we ever played with him he crafted story as he went and did a lot of random things, his preparation process was little to non-existent and he would make up HUGE impactful story elements on the spot without any rhyme or reason. In the campaign I now am DM-ing I took over from him, he had a BBEG that would randomly show up and fuck our day over, and then would leave again. This overarching campaign had us switch to new characters every little bit because this "assassin" as we called him would pop out of the blue and kill one of us or just screw with us and we'd either be right back where we were with no progress being made or just dead. He decided with one of the new characters that was a half drow that randomly she was this assassin's daughter, the player just was like SURE! and nodded like it all made perfect sense, when this guy was the BBEG and it all just randomly happened. Now i have control of the campaign and i spend hours crafting the world and background for these characters to roll around in, and they are all literally thanking me for the effort, the former GM now plays at the table with the rest of the group as a player instead of making these half assed game sessions.
I should at least state i came up with a good enough reason for her to be the "assassin's" daughter. This BBEG was trying to gain power and is now a demon prince in the abyss after a 1300 year time distortion the players went through. The BBEG plans to use his daughter as a sacrifice to bring his new form back into the material plane now that he has willed himself this power, if he succeeds he will begin to perform a miracle and become a god, ascending to a new evil god among the pantheon.
I think the biggest diffrence between a dick gm and a gm that just gives a good challenge is being upfront about it just state how the game will be if its gonna be a meat grinder then tell the players dont let them walk in without knowing what kinda game you wanna run. And never ever think your opinion on a players character overrides the player playing that character if your guy wants to play a wizard but plays a terrible wizard just let them be bad. Aslong as they dont affect the other players good time let players play.
Killing a character because the player couldn’t show up is a dick move.
i would liek to say, i think antagonistic DMing could work, IF your players know itll be that way, AAAND they all really like dark souls, AAANND you run death in the same way as darksouls
that's to longer antagonistic. It's now.........sado/massochism? Proper consent makes almost everything okay imo.
I moved them to a new map, said the light was dusk, early night, and then I specified "This is a stealth mission". First guy - I cast Flame Blade, then failed the following Stealth roll. Next guy up - I cast Faerie Fire (has a 10ft ambient light). I drove the point in by pelting them with arrows. Yes the encounter was Deadly, but if you went Stealth - then it would be a sequence of Normal or Hard.
DM doesn't like low level creatures so puts us up against things that have hit for 40+ on single hit...we just ranked up to 4. The encounters to the main objective have had creatures with +8 strength (again this is level 2/3 encounters) so my spell save DC is only 12, never going to work.
He has tried to "balance" this with abilities and weapons, with some being on god-like levels. Doesn't seem to realize that when they seem to hit AC 19 every time and do damage from 8-40+ it makes no difference, we won't survive. I'm sure his rolls aren't used 90% of the time and are just 'let's make this interesting'
Also seems there is no other option but to attack to solve any situation. Story is written, no deviation.
One guy has left already, if it doesn't change or gets retroactively balanced doubt this lasts past next session...
I think the whole "oh no TPK" is rather dumb. In a lot of these game worlds there is an afterlife where things are supposed to happen. There is no reason that the Party can't continue on in the afterlife. Heck they could even have a quest in the after life where at the end they are granted the opportunity to reincarnate, they do and then the quest that they TPK'd during picks back up with them remembering their past life and continuing their quest...
Durakken dms are too lazy for all that. Unless an afterlife campaign was the plan all along.
So I can not count how many times I’ve came to nerdarchy for advice or wise insight on all matter of dnd, I have a question on a specific ruling, I’m my groups main dm at the moment and for my players to give me a break one of my best friends is running COS for our group so I can thankfully play, I’ve chosen to play a Grung monk and when I make my standing leap, I still have to make the same acrobatic roll to jump as a normal human, am I wrong which I could definitely be or should I have some kind of increment 5 ft 10ft or so that I don’t need to make a check? As always thank you guys for all the hard work you do. Stay nerdy 🤓
Page 182 of the players handbook.
TL,DR: Long jump = Total Str score in ft (Halved if not running), High jump = Str Mod + 3 in ft (Halved if not running). You can add your height and a half (Accounts for arm length) to your high jump total to determine the height of a ledge you can reach. This is without having to roll an Athletics check.
Full rules below.
"Jumping
Your Strength determines how far you can jump.
Long Jump. When you make a long jump, you cover a number of feet up to your Strength score if you move at least 10 feet on foot immediately before the jump. When you make a standing long jump, you can leap only half that distance. Either way, each foot you clear on the jump costs a foot of movement.
This rule assumes that the height of your jump doesn't matter, such as a jump across a stream or chasm. At your GM's option, you must succeed on a DC 10 Strength (Athletics) check to clear a low obstacle (no taller than a quarter of the jump's distance), such as a hedge or low wall. Otherwise, you hit it.
When you land in difficult terrain, you must succeed on a DC 10 Dexterity (Acrobatics) check to land on your feet. Otherwise, you land prone.
High Jump. When you make a high jump, you leap into the air a number of feet equal to 3 + your Strength modifier if you move at least 10 feet on foot immediately before the jump. When you make a standing high jump, you can jump only half that distance. Either way, each foot you clear on the jump costs a foot of movement. In some circumstances, your GM might allow you to make a Strength (Athletics) check to jump higher than you normally can.
You can extend your arms half your height above yourself during the jump. Thus, you can reach above you a distance equal to the height of the jump plus 1 ½ times your height.
I forgot you said you were a Grung. They have a long jump of 25 ft and high jump of 15 ft, running or standing. It's in their racial traits I found in the sage advice column.
2 Cubic Tons my whole question boils down to, should a Grung be required to make a check for some jumps because they basically are frog people and I’ve seen small frogs jump 5-10 for no problem, so a 2 ft tall frog should in theory be able to jump without making a check for some distance
I answered that in the second reply after remembering you were a Grung. In short, not if it's a long jump of 25 feet or less or a high jump of 15 feet or less. Took some googling and a second reply but I did find it. Hope it helps.
2 Cubic Tons thank you very much
Dave, that's a FORWARD slash, not a backslash.
Personally, I would have left the game after the whole "you miss a game and your dead", or the Sylph things, that was just mean lol. Though too each his own and play on.
Ah, I guess I should clarify that I agreed with everything else in the video XD and I've done my own sadistic stuff as a DM
Is a bladesinger pack of the blade a good combo
Does it matter?
you do you
What's a good elf for it