I find it interesting that some folks would've accepted public land being inaccessible, not fought for access, and just accepted it without question. I've always hated the checkerboard, and not being able to access land that is public. Thanks for having him on and the great conversation on all the aspects of this.
My girlfirend, who might as well be my wife, could care less about my hunting stuff, just not even in the radar. I layed this out as non biased as I could and now shes all in. blocking public land, where your feet never touch private, is outragous. shes on her phone right now trying to read laws because she doesnt even belive this can be a debate, and she works in the criminal justice system. Im so glad you guys are in this.
@@njerseydavid why do you give a fuck 😂 I was making the point we've been together a very long time and this is the first time she's invested in any of my outdoors stuff
@@tompowers1308loved to hear your story, my long time girlfriend did the same, as in was very invested but not reading laws and whatnot. Ol boy here has a good point, unless it truly benefits you financially, keep her at girlfriend
Just a little something helpful for the future : The saying is: "CouldN'T care less" ....NOT, "could care less". If you think about it for a second, in the context it is meant to be used: You're trying to express that you, or someone, doesnt care AT ALL about something....so why would you say they could care even less than they do?? Does it make sense to say: "Seriously, my wife literally does NOT care about ANYthing AT ALL to do with hunting....she really COULD care less." OR "Seriously, my wife literally does NOT care about ANYthing AT ALL to do with hunting....she really COULDN'T care less."???
I had a similar issue with a ranch here in British Columbia. In my case the ranch had been improperly restricting access to crown (public) land for hunters and non-hunting recreational users for many years. When they tried to restrict my access, I said no and continued my activities. They finally backed down before a court case and this area is now used by many other hunters, hikers, etc.
I'm also interested in this from a different perspective as well. we don't have these issues up here in Alaska, it makes me so grateful every time i hear these stories.
@@aaronglaserI live on the east coast, in Tennessee, so not much public to begin with, though being much more than elsewhere. Wish we had extra undeveloped land somewhere for a checkerboard so we could argue this issue! I love it here but who couldn’t use a little more huntable land.
I agree, the owners defiantly (not maybe) were involved in hunter harassment. HOWEVER, hunter harassment can only be applied if the hunters are not doing ANYTHING illegal. So because the hunters possibly could have been illegally trespassing, they wouldn't get the landowner charged with harassment, until maybe now.
@@snapcrack55 that makes sense now that you say it. I would love to see them pursue that avenue once this is all over with. Especially with the “damage to property “ lawsuit they are trying to push.
@@reneebulkley1333that was my question in 2020. They said the swung around the post. That would have been crazy awkward packing out meat. But in’21 with the ladder, not so much.
Ranches were getting away with this for so long because the public was unaware of how much land was private land locked. OnX and the like changed all of that. Suddenly the public, and not just in-state public, were aware of how much land was being blocked off by ranchers who absolutely knew they were doubling their property without paying taxes on that property.
Ranchers get away with it where I’ve lived (NW CO & NE NV) because the Sheriff’s office backed the landowners and not the public. It’s always been that way. It wasn’t the latest Sheriff or even the one before, it’s been that way since the beginning. Unlike what happened in WY.
I'm an out of stater who hunted speed goats out in Wyoming, the whole trip we were staring at Antelope on public land that we just couldn't get to at all, a few plots had a corner with stuff we could access but it didn't matter. We still got our speed goats but man was it frustrating seeing so much out of reach with nothing but a plot of empty grass with cows on it blocking us, I get not being allowed to cross through someone's property but corner hopping is harmless.
@@willyb3475 this was back in 2019 before this whole case and the consensus we found online was don't do it, really it was only frustrating for the first 3 days as after that point we had access to a large HMA area which gave us more than enough land and pronghorn to hunt.
I live in Aus and listen to all your podcasts, and this is a good one. I enjoyed the humour alot but I admire your guest, who accepted a challenge, new nothing but immersed himself in it and conquered what has been and will continue to be a David and Goliath battle for some time to come. Congratulations to him 👏👏
I feel like the monopolization of land surrounding a piece of public land in order to profit off of it personally or monetarily should just be plainly against the law lol
You shouldn't be forced by your government to purchase a product, either. Yet? Government doesn't care unless those thieves think you're stealing from them. If you framed the issue as, "These private landowners are stealing dollars from you and preventing potential income by restricting access to property you control," it'd probably be more on their radar.
What irony that if the landowner had let these guys cross, they likely would’ve protected their secret hunting ground and kept it to themselves. Now, everyone knows about it. Congratulations, you played yourself.
He really really showed up on this show. He very clearly did actual real ass research on the topic. It's so refreshing to see somebody that's generally knowledgeable that really puts in the intellectual work to actually get into the factual minutiae.
A similar issue arose in Colorado hunting near "The Crown" where an island of public land exists without an option to access without crossing private land. By skirting the boundary on the Southern edge under Mt. Sophris, we discovered a private land owner had moved his Southern boundary into the US Forest fence and all. The USFS Superintendent stated that was acceptable, but was quick to assert USFS LEO would cite for trespass or call state sheriff against those crossing for trespass.
Im an ‘easterner’ with lots of family particularly in MT. From what I can gather, its a large sentiment or vibe or feeling of…. ‘I own everything the eye can see’ no matter how far your property boundaries actually extend to
A feather in Ryan Semerad's hat, council on this case. Time is long past due for this issue to be clearly and unambiguously defined. And congrats to the Missouri four and all their backers that saw the need to help defend them. Go get 'em boys!
Colorado resident here, I would say that the larger threat to hunting we are facing is the new wave of public ballet initiatives that are starting to pop up. The first being the reintroduction of wolves. It is crazy that this state is allowing the public to vote on management practices that should be handled by the game commission and wildlife biologists. These are based purely on perception, such as the new proposed ban on all mtn lion hunting. It's crazy. Excited to move out in February.
Why does that actually sound like the worst idea possible? Especially when it comes to wildlife management and conservation. Whoever made that decision is a goofball.
@@2dclxviI agree, I think having native species is important, and I would fully support the reintroduction of native wolves to CO, along with other predators, if that was a data driven and biologist back initiative. Having Grizzlies in CO someday could be amazing, or it could be a mess. It all comes down to who is heading up the reintroduction, and why.
Case talk starts at 33:33 …..It’s amazing that this has stood the test of time for so long. I have been in Wyoming for 9 years and have basically always been told don’t corner hop, it’s illegal. They just had to pass a law here this year because ranchers were posting no trespass signs on public land. Why that needed a new law is beyond me. The big problem is how things have changed where getting access by permission is all but impossible because they are doing pay to play with outfitters. It is high time this was decided (in our favor) once and for all. Thanks Steve and crew for bringing us this in-depth update. This lawyer is really the type of salt of the earth that Wyoming is known for……
this episode is so classic!! I love Cal's quote "bring it on SOB'S!! I can't wait to see how this comes out. Where I live it is so simple in one county to impossible to figure out in another!
this was very interesting and a crucial problem for access to public land. there NEED to have a clearly defined mecanism for access to landlocked public lands and lakes in north america beyond corner crossing ... Hopefully we the people will be heard
I thoroughly enjoyed this video. Very interesting subject for sure. I loved listening to Ryan’s arguments and dedication to see this subject through to the Supreme Court if he has to.
We are producing an independent series Backroads Bird Dogs, but definitely would love to cover the important heritage behind all levels of hunting with dogs! Y’all are doing admirable work at Meateater and young professionals like myself are studying!
I wrote the last post earlier in the podcast but thank you Steve for reiterating what I said, the real estate agent sold them a steaming pile and they expect to sell it to someone else on the same b s premise
@@tj-kv6vraround the 1:53:00mark the lawyer says that the stay was denied. But also says that you need to physically find the survey stake. They (the hunters) won the case but it’s up for appeal.
boggles my mind how it can just be appealed everytime so more time has to be spent and it has to go to higher courts, i mean i guess it was a wrongful conviction for murder sure you might be happy there is an ability to appeal, but for something like this, what a waste of money, when this finally gets squashed i hope hunters decend on this public land just for the fact to annoy the ranch owner till the end of time. @@hotpotato122
This might be the single most important Meateater Podcast to date. Very informative. Thank you all. 👍 also, I understand from a landowners perspective, if this property was sold to you or told to you that "basically you get this chunk with it too that nobody else can access" I get why it would be annoying too. Because they could have paid a premium for that as well and thats not fair either.
The price they were paying per privately owned acre, should have been right the around the current going rate for that exact type of acre, in that general location. Additional costs for some nonexistent rights, shouldn't be tacked on. Unless it was an actual right that was included additionally, as part of your per acre purchase price, such as water or mineral rights... they should NEVER have actually paid any money for the exclusive access. So if they DID pay an additional premium for some nonexistent rights: they're either stupid and too rich (a case of having more money than brains), or they're assholes who think that their money can buy anything even something that doesn't exist...oRrRrRrRrR they are stupid rich assholes. Regardless, all of the above get no sympathy from this land owner. Fuck anyone who would buy land BECAUSE it allowed them to rip off blue collar American tax payers.
Wondering this myself. If they are arguing their property rights to the absolute infinitesimal degree that a human body can’t cross a corner without brushing private property, how can they claim their chain never restricts public property.
I have had bird dogs all my life. I am Canadian and my dad mom and I would go down south every year to Montana to train with nahvda every off season. Even winning some awards for the dogs. My third Brittany was when I was a lot older. I took every weekend to work on his skills We bought tons of birds for him and drove hours away to train with pigeons. He’s became one of the best dogs I’ve ever been lucky enough to hunt behind. I have two other pups that I have been working on the 3 year old is locked. He’s broke at this point. Another off season and he’s only going to be better. Then I got a 7-8 month old puppy from my dog. It’s his son. And he’s been some work. We have been very patient with him while we built his confidence. This off season is going to be awesome. I’d call myself a bird hunter through and through. But I never diss the big game hunters. I’d love to be one but when you got the connection with your dogs like I do it’s weird to change games. I have never killed a big animal. And it makes me nervous. I will do it this year hopefully. I have permission to go on some private with a friend. Hopefully this year is the year I can share some deer with my dogs not just birds!
Vermont has a 250 ish acre lake that is a municipal Reservoir for water called Berlin pond. It’s surrounding properties posted by the city of Montpelier . No fishing hunting or trespassing. A Berlin town Road passed through part of the body of water and some local fisherman put down their kayak in the water and began using “The navigable waters”. Through the town right of way. The city wrote them for trespass and local court tried to circumvent The term “ navigable Waters” citing a hundred year unquestioned posting. when it landed in the Supreme Court and no trespassing on Montpelier lands occurred and after much bickering the Supreme Court up held the boater rights to navigable and a actual boat launch was built. And of course access was granted although limited, a local victory here. There are a lot of dead-end road people in the world
Don’t forget that Meat Eater could , and IMO should, file an amicus brief supporting the public access side of the case. Expert opinions routinely file these briefs supporting specific sides of highly controversial cases. Im sure BHA and others will be doing as such. I wonder if the case will be heard by the typical 3 judge panel or atypical full court??
The fact that the ranch owners consider the public land next to them to just be theirs is crazy. Its public. They can use it just like everyone else, but they don't have exclusive rights to it.
I know that this podcast came out a while ago so I'm late to the comments but it seems to me that there is a cause of action for the hunters to go after the landowner and his employees for interfering with lawful hunting when they intentionally scared game away.
Catalina Island-The island conservancy has no problem with hunting. The problem is that no firearms are allowed at campgrounds so you need to stay in town to hunt, and it's a long ass walk out to the hunting spots, and since there is no overnight camping, and no vehicles it makes management through hunting hard, hence helicopters. Remove the campground firearms restriction-deer problem solved.
Watched this and something that jumped out at me, if it is illegal to prevent access to public land, why wasn't the landowner prosecuted for doing just that?
So true! Most hunters have no idea the hoops we have to jump through here. To hunt Catalina to get a very small mulie, you’d spend about as much as you would to book a good out of state trip with a chance at a big trophy buck. That is why most do not apply, on top of all the island BS. To hunt the island you MUST use an outfitter. Ridiculous!
@@ocavant I didn't even know there were deer on Catalina until my wife mentioned them culling the herd. Looked into and thought it seemed like a good hunting opportunity. Then I saw the outfitter requirement and decided I'd rather keep eating tag soup in D7.
Assuming you have exclusive rights to public land just because you were told you do by a real estate firm doesn’t make it so, access can’t be denied and monetizing the use of the public land for the ranches is the problem, not a guy stepping over a corner
This is the craziest thing ever that you literally can't cross a corner from public to public. This is not about any damage...its about falsely hoarding PUBLIC land. Public land HAS to be avaialbe to the public. I don't care if they have to give an easement to it
Corner Crossers The Board Game and Corner Crossers the movie. The way things sound to me is the landowner should be taken to court for harassment of wildlife and blocking legal access and a few other issues including lose of the fees for the trial.
Has anyone asked the WGFD about prosecuting for hunter harassment? If the ranch manager and his employees were actively harassing wildlife away from legal hunters. Doesn’t that meet the standards for hunter harassment?
The failure in this corner crossing thing is the public land managers and state law not requiring open access to public land. There should be statutes that require a right of way for the public to access that public land. A 4 foot wide path across a corner will not hurt any private land owner in any possible way. It's strange that the ranch owner claims he was told , at the time of sale, that corner crossing was illegal. Is that in writing? Does anything actually happen on this ranch or is it just bare land used to block access to public land? Looking at the map it looks like there are public roads in the Elk Mountain area.
Recreational easements... Access from roadway to subject area, must include a "commercial zoning" specification, so as to allow for "off road (adjacent) parking". Private property, generally does not describe "An area for parking" (by specific dimension) in its titles description. I'm not a lawyer, but do own a parking lot. It is WHERE it is.😁 I'm Fed. Ct. Cert.[d] 2X arc. Perm.ret.2006
This is very interesting. Not sure if we have something similar here in Canada. I once went hunting with my Dad at his cottage in QC. We split up and a few hours in I saw a huge bucks quickly cross between an opening. (Up there the bush is so thick binoculars are useless) Thankfully there was a light dust of snow so I was able to get a sense of its direction and I followed it for what felt like hours. And kept losing the track. But it was so big I was obsessed. I finally got back on it and thought I figured out where is was and slowly made a move around to get a clear view. Maybe even a shot. Again the bush is thick around there . (I only use the irons) As I was slowly making my way around a decent hill, I stopped for a small water and granola bar break and accidentally noticed something shiny 20ish feet away. It turned out to be an rotted old marker post laying on the ground and I figured I was close to someone's property. But didn't know if it was a Gov post or not. It was 5pm and only maybe and hour to dark so I turned my stalk to getting back to camp to figure it out. I roughly knew the area so I went east to find the main road. Turns out east meant straight to the land owners cabin.
I found myself a few hundred feet from the land owner. I made sure my .308 was empty and behind me as I gingerly tried to get to the road. His dog picked me up. Old guy came out to "greet me" no English but thankfully I learned enough French from my mom. After all that. He gave me and my dad permission to hunt his land 😂😂
Ps As nice as the property owner was I decided his offer to drive me back, thinking I wasn't very far😂 I got back to camp at almost midnight and my dad and gramps were very pissed off.
i have a text message saved on my phone from the Albany county Sheriff saying They will NOT write me a ticket for corner-crossing. the text is from September 2021.
Excellent main topic. Property owner here and have dealt with many encroachment issues over the last several years, guilty parties were the state of MN and the local county groups. It gets deep quickly
@@Sad_But_True17 The chain was attached to T-posts planted on the 2 private pieces of land, right? What possible purpose does that serve other than to keep the public from accessing public land?
Then those landowners should be paying the taxes for the land they're restricting access to. Because if by restricting access nobody can access it it's no longer functionally public property, but private.
as a wyoming resident, that doesnt live too far from Elk Mt, it is insane the amount of checkerboarding of the lands....corner crossing should be legal...
We had a cemetery case go to the Supreme Court from a Twp of less than 5k people. Twp.lost but the State law that allows access hasn't been challenged.
This needs to be a different argument than "air rights / crossing without touching the ground" otherwise a landowner will just build tall fences into the corner. Landowners should be given the option of either buying the blocked land or surrendering a right of way to it.
I’m glad. Another thing I hate about Wyoming is that. It was a public road then the county sold it to the oil companies so you can’t drive on it. It’s our lands we should be have access with no restrictions.
I am sure that when the government divided the land into a checkerboard pattern it was NOT their intent that landowners could landlock sections and prevent public access to those sections. Easements needed here. Foot traffic, horse traffic, motorcycles, ATVs, Jeeps, Pickups? 10feet, 15feet, 20feet? Supreme Court needs to clarify this.
I now know more about corner crossing, and turtle smuggling than I ever thought I would. I know he was moving it for a "friend" but we all know that turtle had no paperwork.
This would have been so much better if they would have let the lawyer finish his complete thoughts and statements. This is where Rogan rules the podcast arena. He is the master of asking the right questions that trigger the guest to speak and then he asks follow-up and clarifying questions once they are done.
I came to know a man, who when HE was a kid, he started hunting and trapping, in the back woods that would today be open country, he told me when I was a kid, and he was an old man, ...-the population of the wild is controlled by one thing or another. If the animal population is not controlled by humans, it's controlled by the wild part of nature. And he explained that, animals, insects, and disease are very painful, and full of suffering. Hunting by humans has a lot less suffering than by the fighting and disease from the wild animals.
@@RadDadisRad enforce an easement? Stop the word salad and say what you actually mean: seize land from someone you don’t like so you can use it as you want. 🤦🏽♂️
@@markdarragh6620 you’re right. I don’t like anyone that steals PUBLIC land away from the public. Prohibiting access to public land is theft. Either absolve this by enforcing an easement or take it through eminent domain. Those ranchers know what they are doing. And I don’t care if you don’t like it.
@@markdarragh6620 btw it’s not word salad. It was 10 words that 1) agreed with the original comment and 2) offered a solution that would compensate land owners will also allowing public land to be PERMISSIBLE by foot. Not everyone has an aerial vehicle to enter and exit the island. It’s not so public is it…
@@RadDadisRad but you are super cool with the theft of private property if it suits your needs. Got it. Let’s hope that it’s not YOUR property being taken for the public good at some point down the road.
This has already been ruled on and I’ll look up the case from Wyoming and Montana where the Supreme Court has already ruled you CANNOT prohibit members of the public from accessing PUBLIC LAND during open hours for said property. The hunters are absolutely right in this because of there wasn’t a fence they could literally step from one PUBLIC property to another PUBLIC property.
I wonder how this will play out here in Catron county,NM...I do have monuments on my corners. This place is classic checkerboard,BLM,USDA_FS and private. The county road & fence was 5' into a place here,from the homestead township plats.
Y'all should know that the Canadian prairies have the same checkerboard pattern however when the Government surveyors laid out the sections of land they included a 60 foot road allowance around each section to avoid public access problems because these road allowances are crown/public land. We also have crown/public land of 100 feet above the highwater mark along navigable waters. Most landowners do not know this and i therefore have to explain it to them from time to time while telling them that if they don't like that they will have to call a Conservation Officer whom I sure would explain it to them. Sincerely, William
That was so cool mate getter done. I like how you turned your kid into a machine. He will be like you when your gone great job. Good luck and never stop till you drop.
![Gunna - HIM ALL ALONG [Official Visualizer]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/HiCxoDeo0hc/mqdefault.jpg)
I find it interesting that some folks would've accepted public land being inaccessible, not fought for access, and just accepted it without question. I've always hated the checkerboard, and not being able to access land that is public. Thanks for having him on and the great conversation on all the aspects of this.
usually a conversation like this i would lose interest in, but that lawyer explained so clearly that i was so drawn to this topic
He made it so clear.
It would be hilarious if that lawyers first ever hunt was meateater taking him through that corner and filming an elk hunt episode
Great episode. Love that the attorney had no background in hunting and the terms, just adds that much more to his case. Great guest for the pod.
My girlfirend, who might as well be my wife, could care less about my hunting stuff, just not even in the radar. I layed this out as non biased as I could and now shes all in. blocking public land, where your feet never touch private, is outragous. shes on her phone right now trying to read laws because she doesnt even belive this can be a debate, and she works in the criminal justice system. Im so glad you guys are in this.
@@njerseydavid why do you give a fuck 😂 I was making the point we've been together a very long time and this is the first time she's invested in any of my outdoors stuff
@@tompowers1308loved to hear your story, my long time girlfriend did the same, as in was very invested but not reading laws and whatnot. Ol boy here has a good point, unless it truly benefits you financially, keep her at girlfriend
Give her half your shit when she leaves.. then she’s your wife, kid.
Just a little something helpful for the future :
The saying is: "CouldN'T care less" ....NOT, "could care less". If you think about it for a second, in the context it is meant to be used: You're trying to express that you, or someone, doesnt care AT ALL about something....so why would you say they could care even less than they do??
Does it make sense to say: "Seriously, my wife literally does NOT care about ANYthing AT ALL to do with hunting....she really COULD care less." OR "Seriously, my wife literally does NOT care about ANYthing AT ALL to do with hunting....she really COULDN'T care less."???
I had a similar issue with a ranch here in British Columbia. In my case the ranch had been improperly restricting access to crown (public) land for hunters and non-hunting recreational users for many years. When they tried to restrict my access, I said no and continued my activities. They finally backed down before a court case and this area is now used by many other hunters, hikers, etc.
Taking out a law suit on the hunters that corner crossed has got to be the definition of hating the player instead of the game
I have gotten my non outdoorsman friends interested in the corner crossing debacle. I enjoy hearing updates
I'm also interested in this from a different perspective as well. we don't have these issues up here in Alaska, it makes me so grateful every time i hear these stories.
@@aaronglaserI live on the east coast, in Tennessee, so not much public to begin with, though being much more than elsewhere. Wish we had extra undeveloped land somewhere for a checkerboard so we could argue this issue! I love it here but who couldn’t use a little more huntable land.
So wouldn’t the landowner be committing hunter harassment by running game off and away from the hunters? Wish they would of addressed that.
I agree, the owners defiantly (not maybe) were involved in hunter harassment. HOWEVER, hunter harassment can only be applied if the hunters are not doing ANYTHING illegal. So because the hunters possibly could have been illegally trespassing, they wouldn't get the landowner charged with harassment, until maybe now.
@@snapcrack55 that makes sense now that you say it. I would love to see them pursue that avenue once this is all over with. Especially with the “damage to property “ lawsuit they are trying to push.
Yes,
And how did they get the game out?
@@reneebulkley1333that was my question in 2020. They said the swung around the post. That would have been crazy awkward packing out meat. But in’21 with the ladder, not so much.
Exactly my first thought, wildlife harassment as well.
Ranches were getting away with this for so long because the public was unaware of how much land was private land locked. OnX and the like changed all of that. Suddenly the public, and not just in-state public, were aware of how much land was being blocked off by ranchers who absolutely knew they were doubling their property without paying taxes on that property.
Makes sense
Ranchers get away with it where I’ve lived (NW CO & NE NV) because the Sheriff’s office backed the landowners and not the public. It’s always been that way. It wasn’t the latest Sheriff or even the one before, it’s been that way since the beginning.
Unlike what happened in WY.
What a great pod and guest. The amount of appreciation I have for MeatEater is astronomical.
I can’t wait for part two. I’d love to hear the rest of the story.
I'm an out of stater who hunted speed goats out in Wyoming, the whole trip we were staring at Antelope on public land that we just couldn't get to at all, a few plots had a corner with stuff we could access but it didn't matter. We still got our speed goats but man was it frustrating seeing so much out of reach with nothing but a plot of empty grass with cows on it blocking us, I get not being allowed to cross through someone's property but corner hopping is harmless.
I'm glad it was settled in the publics favor. BUT I assumed you'd have been covered by "easement" laws!
@@willyb3475 this was back in 2019 before this whole case and the consensus we found online was don't do it, really it was only frustrating for the first 3 days as after that point we had access to a large HMA area which gave us more than enough land and pronghorn to hunt.
Well they shouldn’t be allowed to obstruct access to public land.
Yep, I agree and so far every court decision is backed your right to access your public land.
I live in Aus and listen to all your podcasts, and this is a good one. I enjoyed the humour alot but I admire your guest, who accepted a challenge, new nothing but immersed himself in it and conquered what has been and will continue to be a David and Goliath battle for some time to come. Congratulations to him 👏👏
Funniest part is the sound Steve made when finding out the lawyer for the most important hunting access suit doesn’t hunt anything.
I feel like the monopolization of land surrounding a piece of public land in order to profit off of it personally or monetarily should just be plainly against the law lol
Yep. An easement should be enforced to prevent islanding.
You shouldn't be forced by your government to purchase a product, either. Yet?
Government doesn't care unless those thieves think you're stealing from them.
If you framed the issue as, "These private landowners are stealing dollars from you and preventing potential income by restricting access to property you control," it'd probably be more on their radar.
Absolutely
i was corner crossing on elk mountain before Eschelman owned it. laughed my ass off when i learned where this all started.
I thought to myself, ”if anyplace should look “elky” it should be ELK MOUNTAIN!!”
😂😂
What irony that if the landowner had let these guys cross, they likely would’ve protected their secret hunting ground and kept it to themselves. Now, everyone knows about it. Congratulations, you played yourself.
Cal isn’t on the show enough
Good
Complete agree
Cal blows
He really really showed up on this show. He very clearly did actual real ass research on the topic. It's so refreshing to see somebody that's generally knowledgeable that really puts in the intellectual work to actually get into the factual minutiae.
@@smicksmooketygreat comment.. you win the award bro.. adding so much to the conversation.. now go pound sand
A similar issue arose in Colorado hunting near "The Crown" where an island of public land exists without an option to access without crossing private land. By skirting the boundary on the Southern edge under Mt. Sophris, we discovered a private land owner had moved his Southern boundary into the US Forest fence and all. The USFS Superintendent stated that was acceptable, but was quick to assert USFS LEO would cite for trespass or call state sheriff against those crossing for trespass.
This one is getting a listen in the tree this evening
Good luck my friend same here
Good luck!
After the Supreme Court case and the defendants win … a counter suit for damages should be filed!!!
Landowners blocking access to public land is a common problem in WY
Im an ‘easterner’ with lots of family particularly in MT. From what I can gather, its a large sentiment or vibe or feeling of…. ‘I own everything the eye can see’ no matter how far your property boundaries actually extend to
People want to be a character in the Yellowstone show so bad
New Mexico is bad too!
Bro the checkerboarding is insane. Check it out. It’s unbelievable how bad it really is.
Literally what this whole case is about
Looking forward to the return of Semerad. And to echo other comments: More Cal!
A feather in Ryan Semerad's hat, council on this case. Time is long past due for this issue to be clearly and unambiguously defined. And congrats to the Missouri four and all their backers that saw the need to help defend them. Go get 'em boys!
Colorado resident here, I would say that the larger threat to hunting we are facing is the new wave of public ballet initiatives that are starting to pop up. The first being the reintroduction of wolves.
It is crazy that this state is allowing the public to vote on management practices that should be handled by the game commission and wildlife biologists. These are based purely on perception, such as the new proposed ban on all mtn lion hunting. It's crazy. Excited to move out in February.
Yea I thought Colorado would be great to move to but the people that don’t hunt have a much stronger influence than hunters.
@@RadDadisRad It's a bummer. I've lived here my whole life, but it has changed a lot. Sad see.
@@2dclxvi Then we need to bring grizzlies straight to L.A. and Denver, it's their historic range. Theyll clean up the homeless issue.
Why does that actually sound like the worst idea possible? Especially when it comes to wildlife management and conservation. Whoever made that decision is a goofball.
@@2dclxviI agree, I think having native species is important, and I would fully support the reintroduction of native wolves to CO, along with other predators, if that was a data driven and biologist back initiative. Having Grizzlies in CO someday could be amazing, or it could be a mess. It all comes down to who is heading up the reintroduction, and why.
A Wyoming attorney who didn't know what a T-post was and has never purchased a pocket knife. Hell in the court room though! :D
Case talk starts at 33:33 …..It’s amazing that this has stood the test of time for so long. I have been in Wyoming for 9 years and have basically always been told don’t corner hop, it’s illegal. They just had to pass a law here this year because ranchers were posting no trespass signs on public land. Why that needed a new law is beyond me. The big problem is how things have changed where getting access by permission is all but impossible because they are doing pay to play with outfitters. It is high time this was decided (in our favor) once and for all. Thanks Steve and crew for bringing us this in-depth update. This lawyer is really the type of salt of the earth that Wyoming is known for……
When insomnia means you're early - thanks for entertaining one of many aussies
He didn't want to share with these gentlemen. Now, he has to share with the whole world.
this episode is so classic!! I love Cal's quote "bring it on SOB'S!! I can't wait to see how this comes out. Where I live it is so simple in one county to impossible to figure out in another!
Sat through the whole two hours, very informative, really enjoyed it!
They should counter sue for hunter harassment and intent to defraud.
this was very interesting and a crucial problem for access to public land. there NEED to have a clearly defined mecanism for access to landlocked public lands and lakes in north america beyond corner crossing ... Hopefully we the people will be heard
I appreciated that there was a very energetic conversation but without impolite interrupting.
I thoroughly enjoyed this video. Very interesting subject for sure. I loved listening to Ryan’s arguments and dedication to see this subject through to the Supreme Court if he has to.
Not a hunter, although I absolutely support it, but I’m an attorney and am geeking out on this issue. This is a fascinating podcast.
“You guys are just lawdoggin’ all the time, huh?” Dear God…
Awesome content!! Can’t wait for the follow up!
We are producing an independent series Backroads Bird Dogs, but definitely would love to cover the important heritage behind all levels of hunting with dogs! Y’all are doing admirable work at Meateater and young professionals like myself are studying!
I wrote the last post earlier in the podcast but thank you Steve for reiterating what I said, the real estate agent sold them a steaming pile and they expect to sell it to someone else on the same b s premise
Damn. When he summarizes the federal judges ruling on corner crossing. I started clapping to myself and my dog. God bless america, and public land!
you were not paying attention. He issued a STAY NOT a ruling.
@@tj-kv6vraround the 1:53:00mark the lawyer says that the stay was denied. But also says that you need to physically find the survey stake. They (the hunters) won the case but it’s up for appeal.
the stay was DENIED @@tj-kv6vr
boggles my mind how it can just be appealed everytime so more time has to be spent and it has to go to higher courts, i mean i guess it was a wrongful conviction for murder sure you might be happy there is an ability to appeal, but for something like this, what a waste of money, when this finally gets squashed i hope hunters decend on this public land just for the fact to annoy the ranch owner till the end of time. @@hotpotato122
@@tj-kv6vr Wrong.
This might be the single most important Meateater Podcast to date. Very informative. Thank you all. 👍 also, I understand from a landowners perspective, if this property was sold to you or told to you that "basically you get this chunk with it too that nobody else can access" I get why it would be annoying too. Because they could have paid a premium for that as well and thats not fair either.
The price they were paying per privately owned acre, should have been right the around the current going rate for that exact type of acre, in that general location. Additional costs for some nonexistent rights, shouldn't be tacked on. Unless it was an actual right that was included additionally, as part of your per acre purchase price, such as water or mineral rights... they should NEVER have actually paid any money for the exclusive access. So if they DID pay an additional premium for some nonexistent rights: they're either stupid and too rich (a case of having more money than brains), or they're assholes who think that their money can buy anything even something that doesn't exist...oRrRrRrRrR they are stupid rich assholes. Regardless, all of the above get no sympathy from this land owner. Fuck anyone who would buy land BECAUSE it allowed them to rip off blue collar American tax payers.
Maybe they still get the graser cattle on public land
Any land buyer that believed that it was accepted & legal to block public access to public land is a very STUPID person indeed.
Man great Pod. Would never have thought that topic could be so interesting. Thank you.
Why doesn't the fact that the ranch ran a chain across public property ever come up?
Wondering this myself. If they are arguing their property rights to the absolute infinitesimal degree that a human body can’t cross a corner without brushing private property, how can they claim their chain never restricts public property.
Notably, after the case started, subsequent photos of "the corner" showed the posts with all chains and locks removed.
Been looking forward to this one.
Thanks for this show. I learned a lot and always appreciate the humor.
We gotta get this man on a hunt episode, if he wants to obviously.
Sounds like a tight-ass land owner who is trying to infringe public land owner’s rights.
I have had bird dogs all my life. I am Canadian and my dad mom and I would go down south every year to Montana to train with nahvda every off season. Even winning some awards for the dogs.
My third Brittany was when I was a lot older. I took every weekend to work on his skills
We bought tons of birds for him and drove hours away to train with pigeons.
He’s became one of the best dogs I’ve ever been lucky enough to hunt behind.
I have two other pups that I have been working on the 3 year old is locked. He’s broke at this point. Another off season and he’s only going to be better.
Then I got a 7-8 month old puppy from my dog. It’s his son.
And he’s been some work.
We have been very patient with him while we built his confidence. This off season is going to be awesome.
I’d call myself a bird hunter through and through. But I never diss the big game hunters.
I’d love to be one but when you got the connection with your dogs like I do it’s weird to change games.
I have never killed a big animal. And it makes me nervous. I will do it this year hopefully. I have permission to go on some private with a friend. Hopefully this year is the year I can share some deer with my dogs not just birds!
Blocking public land access is greedy.
Vermont has a 250 ish acre lake that is a municipal Reservoir for water called Berlin pond. It’s surrounding properties posted by the city of Montpelier . No fishing hunting or trespassing. A Berlin town Road passed through part of the body of water and some local fisherman put down their kayak in the water and began using “The navigable waters”. Through the town right of way. The city wrote them for trespass and local court tried to circumvent The term “ navigable Waters” citing a hundred year unquestioned posting. when it landed in the Supreme Court and no trespassing on Montpelier lands occurred and after much bickering the Supreme Court up held the boater rights to navigable and a actual boat launch was built. And of course access was granted although limited, a local victory here. There are a lot of dead-end road people in the world
Cal needs to be on the podcast more.
Is Cal the one with the mustache?
This sounds like such an open/shut case it would be ridiculous a judge would be willing to hear about it at all...
My thoughts exactly.
Wow this is actually making real change! Let’s win fellas!
Google maps has "Elk Mountain Public Access Point" on it now right next to "Elk Mountain Ranch Operations". 😂😂
Don’t forget that Meat Eater could , and IMO should, file an amicus brief supporting the public access side of the case. Expert opinions routinely file these briefs supporting specific sides of highly controversial cases. Im sure BHA and others will be doing as such.
I wonder if the case will be heard by the typical 3 judge panel or atypical full court??
The fact that the ranch owners consider the public land next to them to just be theirs is crazy. Its public. They can use it just like everyone else, but they don't have exclusive rights to it.
I know that this podcast came out a while ago so I'm late to the comments but it seems to me that there is a cause of action for the hunters to go after the landowner and his employees for interfering with lawful hunting when they intentionally scared game away.
Catalina Island-The island conservancy has no problem with hunting. The problem is that no firearms are allowed at campgrounds so you need to stay in town to hunt, and it's a long ass walk out to the hunting spots, and since there is no overnight camping, and no vehicles it makes management through hunting hard, hence helicopters. Remove the campground firearms restriction-deer problem solved.
Steve @51:30 nailed the issue today, Callahan @1:22:33 hits a dinger!
this was a great listen ...
WHAT A GREAT SHOW! THANK YOU!
Watched this and something that jumped out at me, if it is illegal to prevent access to public land, why wasn't the landowner prosecuted for doing just that?
THANK YOU CAL! Hunting in California is ridiculous hard for us. Hunting that island is extremely expensive
So true! Most hunters have no idea the hoops we have to jump through here. To hunt Catalina to get a very small mulie, you’d spend about as much as you would to book a good out of state trip with a chance at a big trophy buck. That is why most do not apply, on top of all the island BS. To hunt the island you MUST use an outfitter. Ridiculous!
@@ocavant I didn't even know there were deer on Catalina until my wife mentioned them culling the herd. Looked into and thought it seemed like a good hunting opportunity. Then I saw the outfitter requirement and decided I'd rather keep eating tag soup in D7.
Great show Steve !
Assuming you have exclusive rights to public land just because you were told you do by a real estate firm doesn’t make it so, access can’t be denied and monetizing the use of the public land for the ranches is the problem, not a guy stepping over a corner
So far the only thing illegal I’ve heard are the ranchers disturbing the game with there vehicles
This is the craziest thing ever that you literally can't cross a corner from public to public. This is not about any damage...its about falsely hoarding PUBLIC land. Public land HAS to be avaialbe to the public. I don't care if they have to give an easement to it
Corner Crossers The Board Game and Corner Crossers the movie. The way things sound to me is the landowner should be taken to court for harassment of wildlife and blocking legal access and a few other issues including lose of the fees for the trial.
Has anyone asked the WGFD about prosecuting for hunter harassment? If the ranch manager and his employees were actively harassing wildlife away from legal hunters. Doesn’t that meet the standards for hunter harassment?
If there were no witnesses, and the hunters didn't film it, it'd be hard to prove.
The failure in this corner crossing thing is the public land managers and state law not requiring open access to public land. There should be statutes that require a right of way for the public to access that public land. A 4 foot wide path across a corner will not hurt any private land owner in any possible way. It's strange that the ranch owner claims he was told , at the time of sale, that corner crossing was illegal. Is that in writing? Does anything actually happen on this ranch or is it just bare land used to block access to public land? Looking at the map it looks like there are public roads in the Elk Mountain area.
Recreational easements...
Access from roadway to subject area, must include a "commercial zoning" specification, so as to allow for "off road (adjacent) parking".
Private property, generally
does not describe
"An area for parking" (by specific dimension) in its titles description.
I'm not a lawyer, but do own a parking lot. It is WHERE it is.😁
I'm Fed. Ct. Cert.[d] 2X arc. Perm.ret.2006
This is very interesting. Not sure if we have something similar here in Canada.
I once went hunting with my Dad at his cottage in QC. We split up and a few hours in I saw a huge bucks quickly cross between an opening. (Up there the bush is so thick binoculars are useless)
Thankfully there was a light dust of snow so I was able to get a sense of its direction and I followed it for what felt like hours. And kept losing the track. But it was so big I was obsessed.
I finally got back on it and thought I figured out where is was and slowly made a move around to get a clear view. Maybe even a shot. Again the bush is thick around there . (I only use the irons)
As I was slowly making my way around a decent hill, I stopped for a small water and granola bar break and accidentally noticed something shiny 20ish feet away. It turned out to be an rotted old marker post laying on the ground and I figured I was close to someone's property. But didn't know if it was a Gov post or not.
It was 5pm and only maybe and hour to dark so I turned my stalk to getting back to camp to figure it out. I roughly knew the area so I went east to find the main road. Turns out east meant straight to the land owners cabin.
I found myself a few hundred feet from the land owner. I made sure my .308 was empty and behind me as I gingerly tried to get to the road. His dog picked me up. Old guy came out to "greet me" no English but thankfully I learned enough French from my mom.
After all that. He gave me and my dad permission to hunt his land 😂😂
Ps
As nice as the property owner was I decided his offer to drive me back, thinking I wasn't very far😂
I got back to camp at almost midnight and my dad and gramps were very pissed off.
The dirtiest fish cleaning station ever is in Florida where the parent let their baby drop a deuce on the cleaning table.
i have a text message saved on my phone from the Albany county Sheriff saying They will NOT write me a ticket for corner-crossing. the text is from September 2021.
Excellent main topic. Property owner here and have dealt with many encroachment issues over the last several years, guilty parties were the state of MN and the local county groups. It gets deep quickly
Can’t believe that broadhead didnt come out of that tree a little more mangled 😂 regardless, amazing hunt and video
Love this at 1.5 speed. Being from NY, I can't listen to you guys speaking so slowly.
The chain that crossed from corner to corner trespassed on state property. A four way corner is an absolute point.
i.e. the chain itself was "corner crossing".
@@Sad_But_True17 The chain was attached to T-posts planted on the 2 private pieces of land, right? What possible purpose does that serve other than to keep the public from accessing public land?
@@bryanincommiefornia5629 you completely missed the point of my post.
Sounds like the landowners are using this as a way to have their own honey hole that people cant get to
I know a few ranches that lease access to locked public land to guides only in wy
Then those landowners should be paying the taxes for the land they're restricting access to.
Because if by restricting access nobody can access it it's no longer functionally public property, but private.
as a wyoming resident, that doesnt live too far from Elk Mt, it is insane the amount of checkerboarding of the lands....corner crossing should be legal...
We had a cemetery case go to the Supreme Court from a Twp of less than 5k people. Twp.lost but the State law that allows access hasn't been challenged.
This needs to be a different argument than "air rights / crossing without touching the ground" otherwise a landowner will just build tall fences into the corner. Landowners should be given the option of either buying the blocked land or surrendering a right of way to it.
I’m glad. Another thing I hate about Wyoming is that. It was a public road then the county sold it to the oil companies so you can’t drive on it. It’s our lands we should be have access with no restrictions.
I am sure that when the government divided the land into a checkerboard pattern it was NOT their intent that landowners could landlock sections and prevent public access to those sections.
Easements needed here. Foot traffic, horse traffic, motorcycles, ATVs, Jeeps, Pickups? 10feet, 15feet, 20feet? Supreme Court needs to clarify this.
I now know more about corner crossing, and turtle smuggling than I ever thought I would. I know he was moving it for a "friend" but we all know that turtle had no paperwork.
This would have been so much better if they would have let the lawyer finish his complete thoughts and statements. This is where Rogan rules the podcast arena. He is the master of asking the right questions that trigger the guest to speak and then he asks follow-up and clarifying questions once they are done.
I came to know a man, who when HE was a kid, he started hunting and trapping, in the back woods that would today be open country, he told me when I was a kid, and he was an old man, ...-the population of the wild is controlled by one thing or another. If the animal population is not controlled by humans, it's controlled by the wild part of nature. And he explained that, animals, insects, and disease are very painful, and full of suffering.
Hunting by humans has a lot less suffering than by the fighting and disease from the wild animals.
It should be illegal to block public access to public land!
Yep, enforce an easement if public land becomes an island.
@@RadDadisRad enforce an easement? Stop the word salad and say what you actually mean: seize land from someone you don’t like so you can use it as you want. 🤦🏽♂️
@@markdarragh6620 you’re right. I don’t like anyone that steals PUBLIC land away from the public. Prohibiting access to public land is theft. Either absolve this by enforcing an easement or take it through eminent domain. Those ranchers know what they are doing. And I don’t care if you don’t like it.
@@markdarragh6620 btw it’s not word salad. It was 10 words that 1) agreed with the original comment and 2) offered a solution that would compensate land owners will also allowing public land to be PERMISSIBLE by foot. Not everyone has an aerial vehicle to enter and exit the island. It’s not so public is it…
@@RadDadisRad but you are super cool with the theft of private property if it suits your needs. Got it. Let’s hope that it’s not YOUR property being taken for the public good at some point down the road.
I enjoyed this episode a lot!
This has already been ruled on and I’ll look up the case from Wyoming and Montana where the Supreme Court has already ruled you CANNOT prohibit members of the public from accessing PUBLIC LAND during open hours for said property. The hunters are absolutely right in this because of there wasn’t a fence they could literally step from one PUBLIC property to another PUBLIC property.
I wonder how this will play out here in Catron county,NM...I do have monuments on my corners. This place is classic checkerboard,BLM,USDA_FS and private. The county road & fence was 5' into a place here,from the homestead township plats.
Y'all should know that the Canadian prairies have the same checkerboard pattern however when the Government surveyors laid out the sections of land they included a 60 foot road allowance around each section to avoid public access problems because these road allowances are crown/public land. We also have crown/public land of 100 feet above the highwater mark along navigable waters. Most landowners do not know this and i therefore have to explain it to them from time to time while telling them that if they don't like that they will have to call a Conservation Officer whom I sure would explain it to them.
Sincerely,
William
Need more episodes of the TV show
very underrated joke about "the" ohio state
That's dead serious
Good pod boys
Here's the solution: avoid Wyoming, hunt anywhere but a checkerboard. I'm planning on doing an antelope hunt there and that's it.
Great show.
That was so cool mate getter done. I like how you turned your kid into a machine. He will be like you when your gone great job. Good luck and never stop till you drop.