Can Modern Drone Swarms Be Shot Down Cost Effectively? | DCS
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- Опубликовано: 2 июн 2024
- With huge Shahed drone attacks like we saw from Iran against Israel on 13th April this year becoming a modern type of strike, how can the US and her allies find an affordable way to stop these drone swarms before they ever get near their targets? We investigate the use of AGR-20 APKWS from fixed wing aircraft.
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0:00 Overview
2:56 Scenario Details
4:14 Attempt With AIM-120 AMRAAM & AIM-9 Sidewinder
9:39 Attempt With AGR-20 APKWS II
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#DCSQuestioned #Drone #Shahed #APKWS #A10C #GR #DCSWorld #GRDCSTesting #DCSTesting #DCS 
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The "Pentagon" Security Briefing featuring your video. General X: " So who are these Grim Reapers ..... I have a mission for them.... " Lieutenant : " I'm on it Sir..... "
Detail: The APKWS doesn't add a seeker head. It adds a guidance unit behind the warhead, with seekers on the leading edges of the four canards.
I stand corrected :)
When I was in the Air Force my pilot had let off an AMRAAM that came back at him. Luckily it didn't hit. We joked that if it had been a hit, he should be credited with the first air-to-air kill of an F-15E.
How??
@@alolanrichu1167 His pilot was Bond, and Alec Trevelyan modified the missile.
Ill take ‘made that shit up’ for 200
I love how literally right before this video was posted the Ukrainians used a Yak-52 with a rear gunner and a basic rifle to shoot down an Orlan-10 drone
Wow the UAF is down to only YAK aircraft…ouch!
@@dexlab7539 More that they are far more effective than jets at the same job. Who knew WW2 era planes would be useful again?
Cost effective and minimal expense
Very well done! Illustrates the versatility of the A-10 with specialized ordnance. This would be a great scenario for the Super Tucano or similar turboprop aircraft. Again, great work guys!
Iran out there doing work for A-10 stans 😂. I was also thinking about how the Sky Warden would fare. But you still need to intercept and drones can probably go really fast.
You’re perfectly right about the super tucano being far more cost effective for this mission profile.
P-51 comeback?
@@BARACKOBMNANA the attack version was retired a while back, to open up the lines again you might as well use something like toucano, or any other coin aircraft in production
@@BARACKOBMNANAJust what would a dusty old tail dragged do that the A29A Super Tucano can’t do?
I like how Caps jet kept insulting him..... kept calling him "No Maverick " that's just mean 😂😂
People were wondering why the US moved an A-10, rather than, say, an F-16, squadron into position to cover against drone attacks in the middle of October last year. This likely answers why.
Grim Reapers: How to run an Austerity Air Force or Coupon wars
Ukraine is already doing that now 😂
It really is all about the friends you've made along the way
Agreed
The drone is a big problem for everyone. Like you say you'll go broke shooting them down with million dollar missiles. Plus using ship based systems are even more expensive since most ship have to go back to base to reload. Anyway you guys have way to much fun!! Love it!!
The USA Intelligence community still wondering how DCS is so more accurate than their evaluations 😆
penis music
USA Intelligence community is not intelligent enough to make that evaluation.
If I remember correctly the owner of this channel was approached by US intelligence agency for his research and sources.
@@Squirl513they warned Russia about the terror attack though
I remember when Cap tried sinking the Moskva with Neptun missiles and it only worked in stormy conditions. And then the simulation became even more plausible when it came out that the Moskva was being distracted by Bayraktars. Almost made me wonder if the Ukrainians used DCS to plan out the attack.
At night,without radar, using targeting pods and rockets would seem to be incredibly difficult if not impossible.
Agreed
@@grimreapers with the flir in night time should be easyer to individuate the drones?
Apache, TADS/PNVS, rocket pods, LOGIR. Night time no problem. Pilots see, rockets see, fire and forget.
they can lock the target with radar and transfer the targeting info to the pods.
Add a few clouds and this would be impossible
Love your content!
-----
Bully: I’m gonna keep throwing rocks at you till you go bankrupt blocking them
Me: ok but if you keep this up, I’m going to remove your ability to throw rocks.
Bully: but then you’ll be the bully
Me: I do not think that means, what you think that means
Thanks! We need them thinking this way ❤
I heard about these from a co-worker. Cool to see them work in theory. Great mission guys! Video Valued by Valued Viewer - Fly Army! 🚁
RUclips seems eager to shut down videos about weapons, wargames and warfare but cannot do anything against these bots...
Don't you love learning and growing alongside fellow women?
I was watching a live stream of *STELLAR BLADE* last night and spamming bots kept popping up in the chat...🤦♂️
Bit harsh to hold youtube accountable for not having a cost effective method to defeat Iranian drones, even the military industrial complex struggles against cheap bots.
@@beardedchimp that's not what they were referring to, my dude.
@beardedchimp see what u did there
Your friendly fire last time wasn't because of the missile type, it was because you flew in the middle of the swarm, firing in random directions. If you shot at them from outside the swarm, it would have been nearly impossible to shoot each other.
The cheapest way to take on a drone swarm is with your own drone swarm.
Shooting from side aspect is going to be hard because - from what I can tell from publicly available information - the APK guidance is not proportional, that is it tries to fly straight at the target. This works for non-moving ground targets but for air-to-air intercept from side aspect you need to instead aim for the intercept point ahead of the target.
Which is why while you can do this type of air intercept, APKWS is really being pitched right now for ground to air point defense where side aspect should should be minimized. For example, on the L3 Harris VAMPIRE system.
Feel free to correct me, but I imagine it wouldn't be so different from a laser-guided bomb intercepting a moving truck.
@@hanrockabrand95 The difference is the relative speeds. A truck going 30mph might as well be stationary relative to a rocket going 1500 mph. But a drone doing 150mph might start to become an issue
@@danielfearn6076 @hanrockabrand95 And the speed issue is made even worse by the fact that these hydra rockets are effectively ballistic. A laser guided bomb will either be increasing in speed or at terminal velocity, which is always going to be a lot faster than anything on the ground. Hydra's have a short burn rocket motor that only lasts for a few seconds, and then it's an unpowered flight. Air-to-ground isn't that noticeable. But in air-to-air or ground-to-air your rocket is decelerating pretty much from the moment it leaves the tube.
I guess good offense is the best defense. Can't get attacked if you blow up all the enemy drone with your own drone
Northrop Grumman claims it developed a self guided 57mm shell designed exactly for this purpose. Claims to be effective against drone aircraft, land and sea vehicles. And would be even cheaper to use. They have a youtube video on it.
Yup, probably $1M per round LOL
I've wondered before about putting helicopter gunships in the air over the target, along the flight path of the drones, with stingers or the like, as a last-ditch backup for the short range SAMs and whatever those land-based CIWS guns are called, defending the target. It'd give one more shot at the leakers that got past the fighters and long range SAMs before having to rely on the close-in stuff. Being able to use Hydras like this would make Apaches and Cobras extra-handy in such a role.
Apache with rocket pods loaded with LOGIR.
This is actually the perfect role for an air force’s training squadrons. Trainers flown by instructor pilots, like the L39 etc, would be an inexpensive way of not committing first line aircraft to this mission.
You would have to include the cost of operating the A-10 or whatever launch platform you are using along with the cost of the APKWS rockets. If you used a mix of low cost launch platforms (A-10s instead of 4th gen fighters, COIN type prop airplanes and of course other drones which can launch rockets) you would still significantly lower the cost of shooting down the attacking suicide drones.
The only thing I missed was some BRRRRRT on them drones
With very slight advancement in technology, that turns into a missile machine gun. 😮
Macross Missile Massacre ain't far off
Good content! Right up to the end!
The missiles may be more expensive than the drones, but they are still cheaper than the damage those drones would've inflicted if they reached their targets.
The of intercepting the drones can also be offset by interdicting their launchers.
Always some awesome solutions! Keep it up y'all! Works with soft tops too!
I believe in the US tests of APKWS for drone/cruise missile defense, the targeting pod was slaved to the aircraft (an F-16) radar.
Newer pods enable cooperative engagement. Thus the F16 observer can have the APKWS from the A10 truck engage designated targets.
It's interesting how the taxpayer participates in all conflicts
It's also interesting how many in congress own stock in weapons manufacturing companies and how much every military aid package sent increases their bank accounts.
We always have since the beginning.
I wonder what the actual real world manufacturing cost of those modern missiles are, compared to what they charge the military? I bet it's in the thousands rather than hundreds of thousands. And it's not the R&D, coz we give Boeing and Raytheon etc billion dollar grants for that. Those same drones with a 'Made in USA' sticker would immediately pump the price to a couple million each I suspect lol.
@@VincentNajger1 R&D cost is hard to gather from the outside, but comparing to the price the Chinese and Russians are exporting, which already included their profit, our's are still at least 5 times more expensive. And some specific equipments like ATACMS are over 20 times more expensive.
Very important analysis!
This is a very relevant video! I have no doubt the generals and admirals are asking themselves the same questions! Good work.
YES! With directed EMP. You can widen or narrow the area affected and you can do it repeatedly, with an EMP 'cannon'...
The ARMY has a patent on a piezo-electric EMP generator that is fixed to the end of rifles. One a little bigger would do, mounted on some mobile chassis, or even other drones, like hunter-killers..
Additionally, a drones could use something like an M203 and shoot a grenade at it. Maybe a proximity fuse and a small rocket on it. RAM Grenade. Rocket Assisted Munition. A Hawkeye or AWAC could run it.
that new US ground attack crop duster, with these pods many of them. running patrols. even cheaper or a bronco for the sim
Hey Cap...could you guys try this again, using the A-10's or like aircraft...but using guns instead of rockets. Sort of like an airborne Phallynx maybe?? Thanks for the vids. (please pardon the spelling. I'm laid up after shoulder surgery, and trying hard to relearn 1-handed typing...hehehe)
Def possible.
4 am and grim reapers have a new vid, Good way to start my day
When there is an incoming time on target attack with drones, ballistic and cruise missiles, friendly air defences need to be hot. With drones being slow moving \ early launch, the engagement betwen plane and drone can be at distance, but friendly and enemy air defences being active/deactive need to play a key par tin this type of combat.
This application seems ideal and genuinely plausible for military turboprop aircraft like any of the various trainers or even the modified military C208 Caravans.
Can't wait to see those rocket pods fitted to Reapers. Thhought experiment: Wall of Reapers armed with pods operated by AI being deployed against shahed drone swarms. Damn .... I'll be in my bunk
Well done boys. This is quite a fluid moment.
DARK! Love the livery! Can you tell us where your Betsy Ross is tonight? Will she share her secrets?
I suggest trying again this same scenario but with slower planes. The A29 Super Tucano is widely used in Brazil for intercepting single-engine aircraft. They could be a viable alternative vector for shooting down drones with low-cost conventional weapons.
Apache
@@stupidburp It would be great to see the Apache in the test as well. But I think speed can be a determining factor. The Apache reaches a maximum of 300 km/h, while the A29 Super Tucano can reach 600 km/h. In terms of intercepting multiple targets, this could be a determining factor.
with a little back of the napkin math it would have cost about as much to shoot them down with the gau-8. Assuming $136/round, 65 rounds a second and assuming a .33 sec burst to shoot the slow non maneuvering target, $2946 in shells. one hydra rocket (without laser attachment) is $2800
No spoiler intro…..good, Thankyou.
Yes! I don’t like spoiler intros either
I have faith that ED will partner with PMDG to help doing planes like the C5 Galaxy b52, B-2, c-130 , KC130 tanker or awacs, that would be perfect for DCS and bring those pilots in MSFS that love just to fly these kind of planes and not fighter fighters, everyone would have a role, missions could become epic with everyone participating in these attacks, Missions could be so more complex with these support logistic planes, we know ED is bringing ORBX for the scenery and that's a huge step, imagine having the C5 module flown by real users and not AI, i keep dreaming but i believe
This was beautiful to watch. The rockets are very cool; shame they’re so difficult to fire accurately.
Yeh they are hard to use like this.
Gotta remember that part of the cost calculation is the value of what you're defending. If you spend $20m to shoot down drones costing $500k, but prevent $100m of damage and save 50 lives, is that a bad bargain?
martlet missile is made for air target and is about 30k each
The APKWS in DCS is also great against helicopters, because they won't go for flares like a sidewinder will.
I think they should use Older WW2 style and similar slow flying dog fight planes for the drones, they would be able to get them all using ballistic ammunition and a fraction of even this cost in both aircraft use & Ammo
RUclipss comment censoring is getting out of control.
Yup
fr tho
What about a WW2 style fighter to take out drones cheaply.
A Bronco or Tucano (or similar) with guns.
Ukraine already did that today : )
T-6 with gin pods
So you are asking a question about taking down drones cheaply and if it can be done, when that is exactly what has been done. Forget the cost of the weapons, there is also maintenance cost for extra flight hours, jet fuel, ship fuel, add every cost that goes into keeping an aircraft airworthy and you already have a cost for doing business. The French recently posted a video of a French helicopter taking down a Houthi drone with machine gun fire.
Dark's livery is out-friggin-standing. 🇺🇲
as Ukraine demonstrated, mass produced $500 drones (with the right armament e.g. $100 motar round) can disable or destroy a $10M tank or $150M missile/radar system, not to mention the psychological effect on Russian troops. Regardless of how you do it, simply stopping the drones before they reach there intended targets ($1B LPG/crude oil tanker) is very cost effective.
Russia has more cheap drones and glide bombs that destroy more.
Abrams tanks were just removed from front line service because they get destroyed easily.
You need to rethink whose morale is getting effected.
@@svensvensson2724 firstly, that last sentence makes no sense. Secondly, Ukraine, a very small country compared to the MIGHT (cough cough) of Russia, basically invented, very quickly I might add, the use of low cost drones to inflict maximum damage on Russian equipment & soldiers. Putin's 72 hour invasion & takeover of Ukraine is well into its 2nd year with Russia's Black Sea fleet in tatters & barely a dent into Ukraine's sovereign soil. p.s. NATO IS NOW 10 X STRONGER.
@@wilson2455 None of that made sense.
A-10 is a beautiful plane!
Meanwhile Monday morning RAF HQ meeting will be like, Sir we need to restart Harrier GR.3 production for drone defence. Where's your research? I present to you the Grim Reapers, just don't watch the last 2 min Sir.
Great video.
Low Cost & Mass produced anti drone weapons is the way to go.
I need to learn A10c2... keep putting it off/ getting sidetracked with other pretty (i can fly the huey now 👍)
the solution is locate production, storage, launch sites, and then controlling authorities.
Just noticed Simba's livery... LOL
LOGIR is more appropriate than APKWS for countering swarms. Stinger are another option. Laser guided missiles are going to require too much fiddling for each target, especially with hundreds of targets. IR and other imaging guidance that is fire and forget is much better for swarms. They are also a bit cheaper. The downside is that they have some risk of locking onto unintended targets. Thus they are best used over water, desert, or fields to avoid collateral damage. The launching platforms should also maintain sufficient spacing and headings to avoid friendly fire.
The Korean version of LOGIR is in production as KLOGIR and cost the equivalent of about $32,000 each.
I wonder which legacy aircraft currently baking in the Arizona storage facility would be most suited to be repurposed as a drone hunter.
At a quick glance, the thumbnail almost looks like an A10 with a couple of pontoons strapped to the bottom xD
Great work. Whenever I open yourube usually your in my top 3 of recommendations. I do watch a lot of your videos though. Can you customize IL2 battles?
yes BUT it's a lot harder.
Is this mod available for download? I don't see a link in your description. This concept is so brilliant. I was expecting an aerial version of the Iron Dome when I saw the title. This is almost as good. And yes, an AESA radar would be a HUGE buff to this system.
There is no mod used here.
@@grimreapersif there is no mod used here, then how are you getting the kills, weapons used, and taxpayer cost at the top right of the screen? I would love to have that for my game play. Could you do a video explaining how to get that?
try to mix drones with a few Object-358 missiles
Now question 2 and 3.. Could you not put the aircraft in autopilot in heading and altitude hold since the drones won't be maneuvering to avoid being shot down? and why put 3 pods on 1 hard point and leave what 3 on 1 wing and 3 on the other completely unused when it could easily accommodate even more of those 3 pod loadouts.
APKWS with proximity fuse would be great.
Yeh they need that.
@@grimreapers Seems it's been done (2021 according to wiki, just before 'Specs") but dunno if implemented or just tested.
APKWS is minor guidance, like a GBU head, rather than large manouvres/chasing type deal like AAMs yes-yes?
A hellfire missile cost around $75,000, And a Air to air stinger from a drone cost $25,000.
Ok, now for funsies, can you shoot down a drone swarm using WW1 airplanes? (Real) old school!
Next time you run scenario, add some modern turboprops in patrol mode with radar and NV/IR optics packages. ... if cheap is the objective. Also, A10 could be updated with underwing radar pods.
Strategy of aerial warfare will continue to adapt to take into account the tactic of launching large swarms to absorb SAM/Air to Air defensive measures.
Bring back the skyraider.
Are there any fully laser based weapons that can fit on a suitable airplane for hunting drones? As for a strike like the one on Iran I guess the various forces didn't care about budget that time, in order to stop a war from happening, but if there are repeated swarm attacks, definitely budget alternatives HAS to be utilized.
Could be a good use for older less capable air to air missiles like AIM-7 still in stockpile? I know they only have whatever is in stockpile but they already exist and aren’t exactly doing much
That runway will need resurfacing now!
interesting concept . gepard maybe
I think Pucara is the answer. 4 guns 7,62 with 1500 rounds per gun give it capability to straffe the drones, for the ones bigger, x2 20mm gun. also can fly low and slow to chase and hunt drones
The Mirage can carry rockets, too.
Love the ending. You all funny
I wonder if ,in this specific case, it would be economical to reinstate something like the P38 lightning,? with no need for bombs as such, that would save 2000lbs that could be used to add some modern sensors off you go.......
You should try with something more cost effective, like the Oto Melara 76/62, specifically made for flying target at subsonic speed. 2-3 rounds per drone should be more than sufficient. Each round should be less than 1000$ . Range up to 40 km, and can shoot down quite few drones per minute. It is being used in the Red Sea by the Italian navy. So at the end the cost to dispose of the drone would be less than the drone itself.
Sorry Luigi you mix data from three different rounds:
- normal round at $ 1,000
- Dart anti-missile about 9 Km range
- Vulcano land/ship Attack within 40 Km
@@robertopiedimonte2078 still much cheaper than using a plane and/or a missile
@@luigifranceschi2350
as you I'm a great fan of 76/62, but...
price per Dart round is about $ 35,000 each and 3 are fired per intercept, so around 100,000 per target making it not the cheapest solution, moreover its range of 5 nm or 9 Km make it interesting for naval use thanks to all limited capabilities this mount offer without using any missiles alongside!
The idea tested in this scenario is far out ranges the extraordinary italian gun can reach and it's developed on concept of using what is cheap and available to contrast drones winning the economic battle behind
+GrimReapersAtomic *The McDonnellDouglas AV-8 Bravo has a conformal 25x137mm gun pod in the GAU-12/U.* Out o' rockets? Trigger down on the drones.
it would also be super interesting to see if these can be wing tipped like how the spitfire took out the v1!
I’d love to see more flanker or Eurofighter based content.
Could rebuild an AC-130 to be an anti-drone platform, loaded with this and the 35 mm Skynex Oerlikon guns. :)
Well you better hope you don't intercept those drones when they are flying over a populated area...
@@totalNERD-eo7wx Drones typically fly relatively low, does AC-130 even feel comfortable engaging weapons on those kind of altitudes ?
Modern air defense cannons tends to use self destructing ammunition. It will reduce the chances of collateral damage, although not eliminate it
Just add laser to the ac-130. It has already been tested
@@megalamanooblolac 130 normally used against ground targets. altitude should be fine
Suggestion: Could you try making a video where rotor aircrafts trying to shoot down a swarm of drones or reconnaisance drones because recently Ukraine have managed to down an Orlan 10 drone using a Yak 52 trainer aircraft with a machinegun.
I wonder how effective something like a Bofors 40mm autocannon with proximity fused ammo would be. Can you mount that to an aircraft?
I like your style.
I have been watching your channel for awhile now and I do like it very much. What happens, happens.
I get that you don't have everything modeled and you do not have the monetary ways to give us "Viewingtons" to enjoy it as much we all could.
So, therefore, I would like to donate a 3 to 4-digit amount (in euros).
F/A18F Super Hornet or F15E would be optimal for the added WSO.
While I understand what you where doing, I'm still kind of wondering why Cap didn't just which to guns and shoot down that drone before he tried buddy lasing. Also, for fun, like to see if the Warbirds could of done this with there guns.
As always Cap & Co.. great video, entertaining and fun. But. . . . I always wondered with this comparison . . .
Do you actually count in the destruction and rebuild cost needed if a drone attack actually hit a town or city, which might give rebuild cost in the billions and massive loss of innocent lives..
So taking that in to the cost comparison what does it matter if you spend 10,20 or 50, 100 million or maybe 500 million on shooting 250-500 drones down and saving lives and the town, city..
Cause if you just compare drone cost against missile cost it will never be cost effective.. but that is doing it wrong..
You have to count in the total cost if in fact all drones actually hit a military installation or worse a town or city, without that potential cost the test comparison data is flawed.
And not forget to count in the running cost of the aircrafts in to the total price, fule, parts needed service etc.. etc..
Just saying ;) Keep up the awesomeness!
CHEEERS!
Hey Cap. With Kola coming next week can you do Norwegian F16 naval attack. Mod Penguins onto the F16C and trying and do 1980s F16 vs Russian ships in the Barents sea. I love you love to say Penguin.
Will add to list. thx
Love the content. How did you get the stats on the top right of the screen? I would love to have that.
The MIC will HATE this video Cap 😂
maybe it time to bacly use them upgradeed 80mm atuo cannons but with tactallink gided 80mm shells with a high exlosive molten metal srapnel flak rounds. then upgrade them automated cannons with a far higher fire rate and give them poper auto loaders and 1000+ rounds.
If you just take drone cost vs shootdown cost, most likely No. If you include possible cost of damage and loss of life vs shootdown cost, then Yes.