FN Model 30: The First Belgian BAR
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- Опубликовано: 21 ноя 2023
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FN played a role in the production of Polish wz.28 BARs, and in the process obtained a copy of the technical package for the weapon, and converted it to metric measurements. Under the supervision of Dieudonne Saive, this was used as the basis for FN's own BAR production, called the Modelé 30. Production was done with a license from Colt, who owned the rights to Browning's patents on the BAR.
The Model 30 was basically a Colt R75 (Model 1925), but incorporated a few improvements. Most significantly, the male and female parts of the gas system were swapped, which prevented carbon from building up and eventually jamming the gas piston. In addition, the bolt removal latch was improved form he US pattern, and the Polish wz.28 style rear sight was used. Lastly, a rate-reduction mechanism oil the fire control group gave the gun "slow" and "fast" settings, of roughly 350rpm and 600 rpm instead of the traditional semi and full auto settings.
Production began in 7.65mm, and the Belgian Army adopted the weapon, taking deliveries form 1930 until occupation in 1940. The Model 30 was also made in 8mm Mauser, and exported to China and Ethiopia. The design was fairly quickly supplanted in 1932 by the FN Modelé D, which added a quick-change barrel mechanism to the design, and this pattern sold more widely.
Full video on the FN Model D:
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The addition of a pistol grip really changes to operation of the BAR.
I would love to see Ian going through all the Swedish versions of the BAR. They even made one that was belt-fed.
That sounds awesome I never knew that
Kulsprutegevär m/1937 Bandmatat. 6.5x55@@JosephShemelewski
@@HasturT Cool thanks
Ah, the missing link between the BAR and MAG!
@@hailexiao2770 It looks nuts based on the pictures I've seen lol I can see why it was never officially adopted
I’ll never tire of BAR variant content. What a fantastic video to wake up to, thanks my guy
I agree.
BAR is BEST.
After watching you disassemble the B.A.R. and talk about how the U.S. version was harder. I have greater respect for my father. He carried a B.A.R. during world War two in France. He never mentioned how hard it was to maintain.
Im sure if its all you know then its not an issue. We have it easy being able to look at all the designs years after the fact
It’s really interesting to me how similar to the mag-58 or m240 series the bolt, gas plug and piston are. At a glance you could be forgiven for thinking they came from a 240. It’s neat that FN looked at those designs and went “if it ain’t broke…”
Especially when you turn the BAR upside down.
I think the funniest description I ever heard of the MAG/240 was "upside down beltfed BAR"
The US’ refusal to adopt a rifle with a pistol grip until well into vietnam is baffling to me.
Try 500 years of firearms stock design....
Rifles without grips look a lot more aesthetically pleasing, but I doubt that is the reason lol!
Fudds: holding back US firearms procurement since 1889.
@@alm5992 You'd be surprised...
The whole M14 project has a lot problems besides no pistol grip.
As far as the BAR, I think the mag release is more a significant upgrade than the pistol grip. Just a personal opinion
I can’t help but admire the design and engineering of some of these old firearms. The tech that went into them was truly revolutionary at the time
I hereby declare this the "Chocolate BAR".
Because it is sweet. And, y'know, Belgian.
As a Belgian, I'll allow it.
Ha! I bought this gun at the Morphy auction. It's badass.
Congratulations on a fine example of the BAR, I wish you many years of pleasure owning it.
Jealous.
What's going on with that chunk of metal that "ripped off" the receiver? Any issues? Repairs?
Belgian Assault Rifle
😂😂😂
Oh, now we know it's really Belgian Armalite Rifle 😊
the A in BAR stands for Automatic btw@@dashingdave2665
Belgian Belgian Assault Rifle Assault Rifle.
@@dembro27
Ngl gun's kinda sus... Doesnt read BELGIQUE BELGIQUE BELGIQUE anywhere.. propably a fake.
I really like that the Hi Power designer, that Belgian with the funny name doesn’t get the respect he deserves for that LEGENDARY 9mm pistol.
Mr God Given Saive.
Also responsible for the FAL and the initial work on the MAG.
Mr. Saivé really deserves more props than he does. He sort of gets lost a little bit in the great firearms designer mix.
I have two. One is a pre 1939 model with a slot for a holster stock (which I don't have and don't want, thank you) and the other is 1976 build with a beautiful bluing job, walnut grips and target sights as I shooting competitively back then. As I was living on post, I kept it in the company arms room. Apparently, the armorer had never seen anything but parkerized M1911A1's, fell in love with it and showed it to the First Sergeant. So I was greeted one morning with, "That's quite a pistol you have, El Tee." I just grinned, "It sure is, Top"
I have to say FN made the BAR practical. And it looks awesome
Blaster from another age, all the curves, bevels and dovetails make it look like like an artisan built piece. Even the bluing on an old gun still holds up because sections were highly polished.
The rate reduction system seems overly complicated. I am assuming modifications to the bolt or recoil spring were not practical for some reason. I wonder how robust that rack and pinion system is.
Strangely enough the Belgians also did the same for the Chauchat.
If you want to see FN making the BAR practical, this is only the start. The Mle D was a vast improvement.
My uncle Art was the hunter in family (his stories of hunting for the mess hall with a M1 carbine while on occupation duty in Germany were classics). He had been an infantryman late 44-45 on the Western Front. He told me once, that after Bulge they got some strange looking BAR's with pistol grips and finned barrels to give two guns to a squad. As I got to know firearms better, I doubted his story - maybe just a mistaken memory of 30 years before. Then I discovered the Model 30. Did FN have some 30-06 Model 30's in stock that had sat in a warehouse since 1940? Did it make new barrels or rechamber existing Model 30's in other calibers? How did the US Army get ahold of them? Mysteries we'll almost surely never know the answer to.
I might have answers. Luxembourg used 30-06 as their standard cartridge, they were probably FN-D's. The Battle of the Bulge was fought in this area.
I met a WW2 vet who said they made you clean BARs as discipline for messing up, kinda like peeling potatoes.
My stepfather had a BAR-D in Canada. It had been converted to single shot by cutting off the gas piston, and welding the gas system and bbl latch. A travesty I know but kept it from the cutters torch, until it was consumed in a Fire
Did this fire occur during a "boating accident"? 😉
Actually, it sounds kinda cool...
The bolt, bolt carrier, piston and gas plug look very similar to those from the FN MAG. Very cool to see the lineage
It's always a good day when Ian uploads Belgian weapons.
As a Belgian, I have to agree.
I know a lot of things are better than this but man I love this aesthetic of the BAR
The "rate-reduction" feature of the FN Model 30, is very cool
The Madsen he covered the other day was like a Rube Goldberg but the BAR isn't exactly simple either.
True when I was a freshman in Army ROTC 1970-71 we still had some to familiarize with as some low priority units still had them. Complicated to field strip with lots of little parts to get lost. Not a fun time in the field.
Dude, totally. I'd rather service an antique swiss chronometer than the Madsen.
I find it really cool that you can look at the swapping of parts on the gas piston/plug and see how it is incrementally becoming closer to the M240/FN Mag gas system, which uses the same bolt and piston system
over a century of history from the original BAR to the Lima variant, and not a whole ton has changed internally
You are a such a blessing Ian. I am making a video game featuring rare older fire arms and every time I think of something I would like to add, you do a full breakdown of it. Thank you so much.
I lived in the Netherlands for a couple of decades and was often in Belgium. They know firearms there!
@@Elatenl Museums and lore
@@Elatenl Dutch art is nothing special these days, but there are plenty of museums there that glorify the past.
Of course. They've gotta keep the Dutch at bay!
@@Elatenl I agree, but there are some pretty cool and informative museums in and around Liege.
@@Elatenl having connections..
I live in the netherlands and have acces to the weapons depot of the Dutch Military Museum.
8000 unique fire-arms that I can touch...
So yeah, connections..
One of the best versions of the BAR in my opinion.
Thanks, Ian. Hope you have a great Thanksgiving
I love the BAR. Any video with a BAR in it instantly gets a like
Any reliability updates on the Calico?
(Asking for a friend).
The craftsmanship on interwar guns is so pretty. Nice machining gorgeous finish
We still use these beauty even today in 30-06 caliber, mainly by our Navy (mostly by ship crew, sailor and naval base personel). FN D just like the Madsen can serve really well for decades
I mean if it aint broke. Seriously though I'm sure there are plenty of older rifles that can still be quite viable in modern situations. Even if they aren't top of the line.
@@robosoldier11their biggest issue is the inability to add modern optics/force multipliers
@@Joe-hz1nw The model D would be even nicer with a pic rail and a free floating handguard rail
@@Joe-hz1nwNo biggies,I hate picatinny regardless their practicality
What nation?
Love the FN BARS, god they look so well made for early LMGs
My father was a BAR man in the 101st as they were converting to the M14 from the Garand.
So did all the BAR men get M60s?
@@tomhenry897 Interesting. I would've thought the men who had M1 Garands got M14s and BAR men M60s. So were the BARs replaced by the standard M14s or a special LMG version with bipod and heavy barrel?
@@hendriktonisson2915pretty much, nomenclature M15, short lived obviously. If you ever played CoD black ops, and saw the M14 and said that looks wrong, that's because it was modeled after the M15.
Edit: did a double check, apparently no M15s were actually built, they just used M14E2s/M14A1s. Ian did a video about it like 8 years ago
Great story as always!
I remember going through Tanker OSUT and working on the M2 and M240. Any time we had a pin or, especially, a detent to pull to a specific point to see in a hole in the receiver or frame our Drill Sergeant would say, "You got to see the titty in the window." It was a different time.
Great Stuff 💯 Thank you Ian 💥💥💥💥💥💥💥
Some of the Chinese KMT 1933-39 contract of these have been seen with the Japanese triangle 'captured re-issue' mark. It's always amazing to think of the variety of people who used guns of a particular iconic origin!
I wonder what happened to all the tooling for the FN30 when WW2 started. You didn't see any German manufactured BARs, implying the tooling wasn't available to them. The Germans were quite good at taking over factories and continuing production for their own forces. Did the Germans just not appreciate the weapon when they conquered Belgium, or was the tooling destroyed?
I don't think the Wehrmacht were interested in the BAR, or in the Browning 1917.
They used the 7.92x57mm guns they captured in Poland. But didn't continue production of either weapon in during their Occupations of Belgium and Poland.
Apart from pistols, FN was used to make components for German gunmakers, including Walther. And also military motorcycle/sidecar combinations.
They had stuff like the fg-42 to use.
My guess is that most of FNs technical and management staff fled to the UK, so the Germans couldn't make good use of the tooling. The Reich was already short one both, and you can't just lapanka some Poles to crank out BARs.
@@kevinoliver3083they were when they were used against them....
@@kenneth9874 Repeat please.
Beautiful
Is it just me, or does it seem really crazy to include a rate reducer that works by making it harder for the bolt to return forward and go fully into battery through just pure friction from having to push a lever out of the way? That seems like it would be inviting malfunctions.
Such a good looking gun
I don't know exactly why, but there is something so appealing about this gun, i felt very similar for the M1907 as well
Might be called "Browning Charm", as a diagnosed phenomenon, i am not sure
Un magnifique fusil-mitrailleur modèle trente belge!
The first Belgian BAR is better than all the BAR USA used inWWl, WWll, Korea War and so...
Nah, not bad for a copy of a great American design though
Nope
We pronounce the T in trente because there is an E after the T, otherwise it would be silent indeed !
Good work dude, your pronunciation is starting to be outstanding
Very nice.
FN and Browning, name a more iconic duo.
Good explanation mccolins
Some of these popped up in the Spanish Civil War (or at least some BAR version with pistol grip).
Moustache
The main reason I appreciate Ian is his correct pronunciation of "height".
If Dieudonné Saive was American, he would be right up there with John Browning and Eugene Stoner as the most famous gun designers.
In the rest of the world he is "right up there "
Dieudonné Saive IS right up there with John Browning. Because John Browning said so.
I always say he was Browning's disciple.
Very cool
That's a really nice rifle.
What a nightmare to strip.
Don't believe that I could ever do that blind-folded.
Unlike a Bren of similar vintage. Czech mate!
Bren? You might as well have a grease gun.
@@kenneth9874 What a silly comment.
@@MarvinCZ have you ever fired one?
@@kenneth9874 I fired a ZB-26 but even if I didn't, comparing a Bren to a Grease gun is so stupid, anyone who knows anything about those guns is facepalming.
@@MarvinCZ they're both cheap and simple and they both work ....
It's even got the shoulder thing that goes up.
I really like that magazine release.
Excellent Ian. Simple pronunciation tip: Saive's name is pronounced as if it were spelled SEV in English. Also, in "fusil", the L is silent.
The Flemish BAR is vastly superior in all respects to this clearly Wallonian BAR. 😅
@@brianferguson7840 Thems fightin words boy!!!!
@@brianferguson7840messin with the pomme frites - ono you dit-nt!This is the third rail issue for any nation to not go to. wrt Belgium 😅
You should try to tie in war / hero stories that used the firearms you talking about if possible when applicable. Great video
Sounds like a new channel is needed. 😊
He rarely does battle history unless it's a specific firearm used by an individual. His channel is largely the broad history of firearms from a technical, technological, and logistical viewpoint.
Im from belgium ^^ nice looking gun
🇦🇷🇦🇷🇦🇷 DESDE ARGENTINA BUENOS AIRES, SALUDOS.A MORPHY muy buenos los vídeos siempre los veo son muy bien esplicado le mando un abrazo 👍👍🇦🇷🇦🇷🇦🇷
The shoulder thing that goes up
I wonder what the best bipods of the '20s and '30s was? Sort of 'the bipod to rate against'.
I admit I wasn't ready for the Fire Control Group to start quacking.
I call for the Ian drinking game (take a swig even time he tries french )😜
Take a shot for every “but I digress…”
That’s a beautiful weapon…
I mean Ian’s mustache, though the BAR is a close second.
That's a big FN BAR
If you can do a video about the Swedish Kg m/1937: modified version of m/1921, with quick-detachable barrel.
E Gads! I had not seen a BAR striped. No wonder they were so expensive!
It seems to me that magazine release could be a problem in brush or when going prone. More likely to lose the magazine than inside the trigger guard.
4:50 ah yes. I believe the technical term is ‘the shoulder thingy that goes up’
Firearms made from milled steel forgings have a character that stamped gins just can't match.
Nice,,,
Wouldn't want to take that apart on a freezing rainy January night in the pitch dark.
I didn't scan through all the comments so apologies if somebody else already covered it but... while the updated mag release does look nice... form a pure military / law enforcement perspective... I like the original button mag release as, with proper training, I think one is just as fast as the other and, to me, I would be concerned about unintentional mag drops with the sliding release... e.g. it gets snagged on something or in "the heat of battle, the user getting "excited" and accidentally grabs the release instead of the trigger 😮
Would this be the model that the polish postal workers used to defend their post office at the start of WW2 ?
You just watched The Fat Electrician's video didn't you.
No, FN developed the M1930 after the Poles had adopted their version of BAR.
Most Browning wz 1928 guns were made in Poland, under licence. With only the initial batch of Colt made guns being bought from FN.
The best BAR
Can someone with better editing skills than me put together a super cut of the o loving pronunciation of Dieudonné Saive.
BAR: Big Ass Rifle!
I would assume the gun is in the German 8mm. That is what the Polish were using along with many other countries.
I prefer to refer to the BAR as Barely Any Rounds. All that metal and the bastard is out of hurty bits after a couple of controlled bursts of fire.
No one cares what you think
I'm curious what the absolute unit of an anti tank rifle behind him is, is that one of the russian 14.7mm's or a 20mm cannon?
Boys anti tank rifle I think.
Speaking of FN, and you did the teaser video of “The Most Expensive MG Ever Sold”… all I want for Christmas is the FN Minimi formal history and mechanics episode and it’s coming soon on almost definitely Christmas of this year 2023.
I'll take an FN-MAG!
This gun has the real life "fuller auto" lmao
I love classic FN guns. They absolutely dominated military small arms for the past 100 years.
Truth.
That would be John Browning
Dear Ian, why there has never been FN1910 and FN1922 review on your esteemed chanell? After all FN 1910 was the gun that started WWI so it deserves its own video. 🙂😁😎
Cool guns indeed. In Belgium, you can find them for dirt cheap in most gun shops. FN made A LOT of them.
What advantages does having the fast (600 rpm) full auto and slow full auto (350 rpm) settings give compared to having one full auto setting (for example 550 rpm) and semi auto setting?
In my opinion, none. I think the idea was to allow more continuous covering/harrassing fire at a slower rate that would conserve ammunition.
Ammo conservation. It's magazine fed and those go dry quickly. Light machine guns of the day also were used for anti air applications. You would want a higher cyclical rate against aircraft. For a light machine gun against infantry a slower rate of fire was more desirable. Semi in a light machine gun is also kind of useless, that is what rifleman are for.
@@ForgottenWeapons I see. Thank You for the answer!
@@onelonecelt9168 The ZB26 and Bren LMGs had a rate fire of about 500-550 rpm and these were not considered to have too fast rate of fire.
@@hendriktonisson2915 I am aware of that, and agree with you, that they aren't too fast, but your question was on this gun and the possible idea behind the rpm settings. So I gave you an answer that probably sums up the idea behind it.
Some dummy ammo with various comparisons and useable empty cases would really be nice...x
I guess you can say the BAR was set high for bAT variants.
Ideal for vaporising GIs in Enlisted
A BAR with a pistol grip should’ve been what the US adopted for use as a battle rifle in the 1950s instead of the M14.
The BAR was 18 or so pounds and the fbi version was 16 pounds. A lot of weight for an average soldier to carry around. The m14 itself was around 9llb. Imagine if they made the fbi version in 7.62 x 39 or in the kurtz round. They could have had the fn fal but the ordinance board would not allow it.
The BAR drawn with a crayon
Can u do more Croatia?
early US Army org charts show the BAR used in the AA role. This changed quickly when the US entered the war.
Technically the Gas System is an Internal Cylinder with an External Piston...
Isn't it funny that the other nations had better bar variants in their military than the usa which only used colt monitor rifle in the FBI I think
That's what happens when you try to think...
The bar from Kelly’s heroes.
1:18 if you convert inch measurements to metric, you get many very odd numbers with many decimal points (1 inch=2.54cm). so did they do that, and keep parts interchangable at the expense of using terrible measurements that would most likely slow production, or did they round measurements to make production smoother, but make most parts of the gun non-interchangeable with the imperial original in the process?
Probably the same thing as the FN Auto-5s, they round the measurements to a nice metric number so the parts look interchangeable but aren't.
Are you going to ask a metric machinist to turn something to 15.875mm (5/8") or make it 15.88 to allow for reasonable tolerances?
the BAR is just cool 😎 👌!it's heavy, It's an antique but I still like it ! I think the pistol grip would be helpful in controlling this beast.
Belgian's Awesome Rifle
Knowing my luck, I'd hit the magazine release instead of the trigger at the worst possible moment in combat.
Anyone know how to get in touch with Ian? I have an old revolver I'd love to learn more about. Reason to believe it may have been a civil war piece
Wait… somebody got workable and usable technical data from Colt?